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Open mike 08/11/2020

Written By: - Date published: 6:00 am, November 8th, 2020 - 55 comments
Categories: open mike - Tags:

Open mike is your post.

For announcements, general discussion, whatever you choose.

The usual rules of good behaviour apply (see the Policy).

Step up to the mike …

55 comments on “Open mike 08/11/2020 ”

  1. swordfish 1

    Just when I was about to say: It's Groundhog Day !!! (again) … suddenly I find it's all over (bar a certain amount of shouting).


    Those damn Ruskies & “Convergence Moonbats” who apparently exert an extraordinary control over US voters appear to have switched sides at the last possible moment.

  2. Ad 2

    He really doesn't want to go:

  3. KSaysHi 3

    For anyone who may be interested (40mins+ long..and can be summarised by legal challenge announced by Trump lawyers).

    For the last 160 years the winner in Ohio also won the presidency so maybe they have something of substance, maybe they don't.


    • weka 3.1

      fucksake, you're posting Breitbart media on a left wing blog? Do you want to be taken seriously or are you link whoring? Going by your recent comments and lack of engagement in the debate, I'm guessing it's the latter.

      • weka 3.1.1

        also getting sick of the maybe this is useful/maybe it's not rhetoric. You'll get some respect if you stand up for your convictions and be more honest about what lines you are running.

      • Rosemary McDonald 3.1.2

        fucksakes weka…"left wing blog" is it? A blog that allows two regulars to spew vile hate speech reminiscent of the Reich.

        Daily review 11/08/2020

        The day I stopped taking this blog seriously. Moderators here come down like a tonne of bricks at the slightest bit of off script commentary from some…then happily allow Draco T Bastard and Greywarshark to make a stand over their staunchly held belief that disabled people Who can't ever have a clear thought, feed themselves, understand anything, control themselves to do simple stuff, are destructive and sometimes violent are an unconscionable drain on resources and should not be allowed to live.

        Maybe these are 'left-wing' beliefs…judging by the way so called left -wing Labour is as happy as their openly right- wing mates to allow those with disabilities (not covered by ACC) to languish in a below poverty line mire.

        Clearly DTB and GWS earned respect from you weka because they 'stood up for their convictions and were clear about the lines they were running.'

        Just a reminder…

        " Left-wing politics supports social equality and egalitarianism, often in opposition to social hierarchy.[1][2][3][4] Left-wing politics typically involves a concern for those in society whom its adherents perceive as disadvantaged relative to others as well as a belief that there are unjustified inequalities that need to be reduced or abolished.


        Clearly to some so-called lefties here the best solution to the problems of disadvantage and social inequity experienced by those with disabilities is to cull them…

        • weka

          I think you misunderstand. The people who own and run the blog are by and large left wing. More correctly the blog is aligned with the labour movement, which covers a range of positions.

          The kaupapa of the site is for authors to write what they want and for commenters to engage in robust debate. To that end, authors are generally lefties, but commenters can say all sorts of things across the political spectrum so long as it is within the rules. Roughly speaking that's: don't pretend opinions are facts, don't use tone or language that excludes other people, focus on the politics rather than attacking people, don't put the site owners at legal risk, don’t be a dick/troll/flame or engage in disruptive patterns of behaviour.

          The problem with the conversation you link to isn't TS's moderation policy or kaupapa, it's that the left itself is still largely useless on disability. You pushed back, why didn't other commenters?

          Same with feminism btw, and you're basically teaching your grandmother to suck eggs here if you think I don't know the problems with the left.

          Your idea that I respect Draco or Grey's position on disability is really off.

          Thing is though, we don't moderate people for their political beliefs. We expect other commenters to push back. I will moderate the above commenter if they keep spamming the site with Trumpism and don't engage in the debate. But if they do engage in the debate, then it's on the rest of us to point out the problems with their position and argument. That is the purpose of the commentariat.

          Finally, I'd appreciate support rather than attacks. I've been holding a progressive position on this site for a number of years and it's cost me a lot in a number of ways. You can thank me that we didn't have CV overloading the site with pro-Trump comments this election and making the place a misery (and all the aggro that would have come from that), but my actions there meant that I couldn't write here for over a year. Milt also lost commenting rights for that time.

          If you want the place to be better, than make it better. Give me a Guest Post and I will totally moderate that to a standard that protects disabled people. I'd love to have more intelligent disability debate here. But I'm just one person. I voted against the EoLC Bill, but I simply didn't have the spoons to write a post before the election. That's my disability, so you know, maybe factor some of these things in.


          • Incognito

            Excellent response, thank you!

            • greywarshark

              Someone who is an advocate for cool, clear thinking on disability and goes OTT as you do Rosemary ends up losing credibility yourself.

              • greywarshark

                Note this goes back to August 2020 being brought up again after it was vigorously discussed then. I think that this attack by Rosemary should be met with an attempt to outline the situation for needy people, with a large portion being disabled in some way. Some thoughts.

                The desire for smaller government and less taxes is a neolib mantra; a crazy idea at a time when need is growing; that it is bad for a well-functioning society can be observed, but getting government back with settings for effectiveness apparently takes a lifetime, though adopting it was done in a few years.

                Under the present system people are becoming more disabled through lack of timely care or services, and the erratic way of the neolib economic system has us at its behest. When government steps away and allows private business to decide procedures and approaches, we end up with a similar system to bad government but with managers who get large bonuses for finding ways to decrease spending and lessen demand. This is hard on disabled people who can find needed budgets vanishing or being replaced by a new concept that doesn't serve the real needs.

                My original comment: 11 August 2020 at 8:50 pm https://www.rnz.co.nz/national/programmes/checkpoint/audio/2018758982/family-fights-chaotic-system-in-caring-for-disabled-foster-child
                Must we continue to do everything to save babies that are so damaged? If so there needs to be special funding set aside for carers both of severely disabled children, and those caring for fully functioning but disabled people.
                Carers who step forward should be securely provided for not be under this crazy neolib thing of getting private entities to tender, and then go through the process again in a few years time automatically.

                There is no willingness or ability by people like Rosemary and Ad to be able to formulate reasonable policy to cope with the growing numbers of people who are being affected by today's chemical-impregnated society, abandonment of respect for humanity in general and parents' roles in particular, stress from removal of life opportunities and a place in society for un/underemployed and handicapped people, and the increase in those facilitated to live longer, unproductive lives to age 90+, and the growing numbers with depression and drug induced harm.

                The demands and expectations are so high and wide that everything that is done will never be regarded as enough. The vaunted 'progress' of the Labour Party in closing down badly performing institutions then selling off the properties, shows that responding emotionally to structural problems is bad policy. These were able to provide a haven for needy people, and give respite to stressed relatives.

                The buildings themselves were in need of re-organisation and repair, but the problem lay with the practices that needed to be properly assessed, scrutinised and modernised. They led to the unpleasant traditions of treatment such as at Lake Alice now being revealed. Meeting the sad histories of the residents with soothing and understanding talk but removing the institutions that should have been permanent, was a mean, low move.

                The staff should have been replaced with better-trained personnel. But neolib-based ideas of 'community integration' became the talk and the fashion, with no solid procedures for proper support and treatment, and accompanied by solid budgets to ensure care and opportunities for as full a life as possible for the residents. Talk of 'wrap-around' treatments for individuals has met with the reality of rationed care on shrinking budgets; just talk and dishonest at that.

                • weka

                  In this case, the issue is probably your opening sentence in the previous comment,

                  "Must we continue to do everything to save babies that are so damaged?"

                  That you go on to say *if we save disabled babies we should make sure we look after them properly, doesn't overcome the problem of your first sentence appearing to say that whether we should save them is to be debated.

          • Ad

            +100 Weka

          • The Al1en

            You can thank me that we didn't have CV overloading the site with pro-Trump comments this election


          • Red Blooded One


        • Draco T Bastard

          A blog that allows two regulars to spew vile hate speech reminiscent of the Reich.

          Which, of course, is a load of bollocks. The Third Reich set out to eliminate viable populations.

          Who can't ever have a clear thought, feed themselves, understand anything, control themselves to do simple stuff, are destructive and sometimes violent

          Such people are already at the end of their gene pool and nothing we do is actually going to change that. They're never going to have children.

          While keeping them alive through maintaining the flow of excessive resources to them may actually cause other deaths through other forms of poverty. The perpetual child that started that conversation was getting $1200 a month and the carers were complaining that it wasn't enough meanwhile the UB is significantly less than that even now that its gone up.

          We actually don't have unlimited resources and so we have to make decisions as to what the best use of the resources we do have. Should we let some people die because of poverty while keeping alive those who, quite simply, don't have a life?

          • Ad

            We will always work to defeat cruel utilitarian haters like you. Count on it.

          • Incognito

            Reminiscent doesn’t mean equal or identical.

            Caring for a “perpetual child” is nothing like a UB. Keeping a person in prison is even more expensive and deportation is a cheaper option – some caring law-abiding righteous citizens go as far as saying “lock them up and throw away the key”.

            Paying for the care of a “perpetual child” doesn’t mean that money is taken away from somebody else with potentially fatal consequences. Government spending is not a zero-sum game as you keep pointing out here. Not sure why you raise this strawman here and now!?

            A “perpetual child” is still a child, somebody’s child. They are not an animal that you put down when it has outlived its ‘usefulness’.

            • greywarshark

              It is important that life's tragedies are actually discussed. While we are clinging to ideas of what are impossible to challenge in NZ, there are things happening to others in the world and huge suffering which we basically ignore. While we are high-minded in the extreme about treatment of one lot of people who must be considered as supremely important, another group are disdained, abandoned. That happens in NZ, and as I said, elsewhere in the world. Yet we are living in a globalised economy. So we must open our minds to how we can devise rules that enable all of us a reasonable freedom of decision, for ourselves, and for the others in the population. One might not consider something right personally, but may reserve making judgments about others' rights.

              Perhaps we all should have lessons in ethics instead of some person drumming some religious discourse into children at school.

              These are some of the divisions within the subject of ethics

              Some more on google – Deontological ethics, Teleological ethics, Virtue ethics, Intergenerational ethics.

              Don't know what these are about – they are listed on Google so some highly educated people know about them. It is not surprising then that we have difficulty considering sensitive matters.

              • Incognito

                No, we don’t need to discuss life’s tragedies, we need to talk about them and give them meaning in and to our lives.

                There are different kinds of challenges, e.g. intellectual or practical. Ethics falls under Philosophy and in the context of debate it can remain intellectual/academic but when it applies to dealing with or solving social problems and policy formation, it needs to move away from the esoteric to the realistic.

                Question everything, criticise, challenge dogma, but be constructive, not antagonistic, and fight for what you can influence and change – don’t tilt at windmills. This requires an open & curious mind, a kind & respectful mind, and an informed (which is not necessarily educated) mind.

                Know your limitations, be humble and modest, and know and respect the limitations of your fellow countrymen/women as well. Aim high, but not too high, and don’t give up but learn and adjust – be resilient and patient.

                You seem to have a bias against religious education. Indoctrinating young minds with questionable ethics instead is no panacea.

                Above all, work together with likeminded people – the power of one cannot be understated but they never achieve anything without bringing others alongside. Others are not losers, the enemy, terminally stupid, or to be convinced/converted, et cetera. Differences of opinion don’t need to separate us, they do differentiate us – we’re all in it together.

                • RedLogix

                  Thank you. This passage really needs to be on the headline of every post.

                  I've lived through the experience of three close family members with substantial disabilities virtually all my life. This is an intensely personal topic.

                  Fundamentally I'm with Ad's perspective above, there is no place for cruel utilitarian measures here. A universal respect for all human life is one of humanities great ethical advances and we let it slip at our peril.

                  At the same time I could speak in depth to the immense human cost that this principle can and does impose on family and wider society in general.

                  There are no easy or cheap answers here.

                  • Incognito

                    Thank you. By coincidence, I came across this tonight and it felt appropriate to link to it here and now:

                    • RedLogix

                      Many years ago we were at a local Christmas Party for families with disabled children. It was a happily chaotic affair, loud, noisy and everyone quite determined to be cheerful.

                      And then there was one mother, quite attractive as I recall, sitting alone next to her infant on the floor. Even then I knew what the child had, Cat's Cry Syndrome and appalling affected at that.

                      In this room she had won the prize of all prizes, her baby so damaged that even the others shied slightly away from her, fearing maybe the contagion of her fate.

                      For just a few moments our eyes met, and in them I saw something that haunts me still.

                  • Draco T Bastard

                    A universal respect for all human life is one of humanities great ethical advances and we let it slip at our peril.

                    That is actually a major problem as it precludes any respect for all other life which results in farmers that pollute and then complain when others point out that they're wrong, a fishing industry that over-fishes the oceans etcetera.

            • Draco T Bastard

              Keeping a person in prison is even more expensive and deportation is a cheaper option – some caring law-abiding righteous citizens go as far as saying “lock them up and throw away the key”.

              Not even remotely related.

              Government spending is not a zero-sum game as you keep pointing out here.

              And, as I keep pointing out, is limited by the available resources. So, no, not a strawman. We really do have limited resources. Just need to look at climate change for proof of that.

              A “perpetual child” is still a child, somebody’s child.

              Your logical fallacy is: Appeal to emotion

          • Phillip ure

            That is some seriously fascist/evil shit you are preaching there..draco…I have two words for you ..stephen hawkings…

          • McFlock

            Besides the eager rush to claim scarcity of resources as an excuse, what actually do you have against children, "perpetual" or otherwise?

        • Treetop

          I resent the years wasted of my time when it comes to how near impossible it is to trust government departments to work how they need to work. Through experience I have found the coroner, the HDC, a DHB and ACC to be useless when it comes to a man dying and no one checking up collectively on what the actual facts are. Had I done nothing the coroner, HDC, a DHB and ACC would get away with their useless analysis.

          The public need to get it why a person like me is forced to go to the media. A dead man cannot get justice otherwise. I have been feeling sickened for over a week about useless services.

          • weka

            I think most people have no idea just how bad it can be dealing with those departments. People get there is something very wrong with WINZ, because of the coverage in recent years. But all those departments have been negatively affected by neoliberal ideology and budget cuts.

            • Treetop

              Had a post mortem been done this would have helped. Contacting and working with the next of kin would have meant the right decisions could have been made like the coroner not closing the file when they had not even sited the ACC injury form which differs compared to the vascular surgeon's comments. ICU say stuff like a short time later when it took 7 hours for the injury to be imaged.

              NIL complications intra op was written when the man's micro circulation shut down and grade 4 bougie intubation was required. 3 surgeries in one week all required the grade 4 bougie with intubation. Just went in for a simple surgery.

              Unless the summary of facts are clear people will get away with medical manslaughter.

              I could go on and on.

      • KSaysHi 3.1.3

        I'd appreciate it if you avoid directing your anger at me, personally.

        I'm posting this because it is an indication that there is going to be massive social unrest in the USA over the next month or so. That's what I think is most important – the people inside the US experiencing this as it rolls out.

        I dislike BOTH candidates for so many reasons and strongly believe sharing information because the Biden supporters are convinced they have won. As I watch their over the top celebrations I think about the social consequences of the shockwave that will roll through the USA if this situation gets reversed.

        Perhaps if you should TELL PEOPLE they need to make their political positions + intent clear with every post. It’s a Sunday. I have my own troubles and really did not need to have this type of nastiness dumped on me.

        • Phillip ure

          @k…can you count….?..what does 300 electoral seats vs. 214 say to you..?..no court is going to overturn that…and seriously…you post material from a far right site..and you expect no comeback..?…that's taking naivety a tad too far..isn't it..?

        • weka

          Let me make it clearer then. If you post a link to a 40 min video on a known white supremacist, pro-fascist media site and you write two sentences that don't tell us why we should watch it, then many are going to consider this either bad faith posting (spam) or promotion. Moderators tend to get a bit tetchy once this kind of commenting becomes a pattern of behaviour.

          This is a robust debate site. It's helpful if you read the Policy and About linked at the top of each page, so you know what the place is like and what the expectations are.



          "I'm posting this because it is an indication that there is going to be massive social unrest in the USA over the next month or so. That's what I think is most important – the people inside the US experiencing this as it rolls out."

          Many would agree with this but not understand why you posted the link. I still don't. Yes, there is an expectation that people explain what they mean. If you want to argue that there is voter fraud, then please do and provide evidence. If you want to argue that the count isn't finished yet, likewise. If you want to argue that Biden won but many won't accept it and this will cause problems, then please tell us what you think. And so on.

        • Gabby

          Well that's a bit snoflaky.

          [three week ban for dropping a deliberate flame in an already tense situation. One week for each time you’ve been modded on this this year already. I expect future bans to increase in length. Bring the good stuff Gabby, you know you can do it. – weka]

        • weka

          Just had a look at your comment from yesterday and see you replied. In part with this,

          "I think I failed to make a key point, that is that people seem to believe the reports of fraud to be true."

          Thanks for this, because it helps me understand that you are probably just not used to how the debate works here (rather than being deliberately vague). I would encourage you to stick with it and be more explanatory with your thinking rather than limiting that and linking. People will debate and argue with what you say (that's what we do here), but the way you engage will determine much of how that goes.

        • Muttonbird

          It’s a Sunday. I have my own troubles.

          Burn the Yorkshire puddings again?

          [What were you hoping (!) to achieve with this pointless comment other than to fan the flames in an already tense situation, which fortunately has been defused, but not thanks to you? Please give the Moderators a good reason why you should be treated differently from Gabby – Incognito]

          • Incognito

            See my Moderation note @ 6:51 PM.

          • Muttonbird

            I was hoping to get a laugh. That was great comedy, imo. Lighthearted, non-directional. Clearly non-political. Apologies I didn't have time to judge the tenseness of the situation first.

            Also, I'm got these partial banners covering two of the most tense posts on this sub-thread, including weka's policy notes:

            These are permanent despite reloading the page and shutting the browser. I couldn't really read what was going on. Reckon everyone needs an early night.

            • Incognito

              Apology accepted but I hope you understand that making light of somebody explaining they’re having troubles can easily drive them off the site. I can’t help you with the technical issues you seem to be having, they are very odd indeed.

              Tomorrow is a new day with a fresh start.

          • Muttonbird

            As you can see, specifically covered is Gabby's comment for which that person received a three week ban.

      • Tricledrown 3.1.4

        Breitbart is run by Jared Kushner nothing more than Trumps lies and innuendo.

    • joe90 3.2

      I'd rather Rachel "The Doc" Bitecofer's take.

      The lady has form, too.

      The model predicts Trump will earn 197 electoral votes. That leaves 63 votes a toss-up – still not enough to overcome the Democrat's lead.

      Bitecofer highlighted Michigan, Wisconsin and Pennsylvania as states the incumbent will have difficulty winning this time around.

      "The complacent electorate of 2016, who were convinced Trump would never be president, has been replaced with the terrified electorate of 2020, who are convinced he’s the Terminator and can’t be stopped," she said. "Under my model, that distinction is not only important, it is everything."


  4. greywarshark 4

    Hello NZ – being insular. It's raining ….. and the newspaper report says we can expect more during November – something to do with La Nina, and northerly weather coming down on us – possibly from the USA influence? But when it is a drought for months, will we have to buy our water from the international/national bizziness people who have sway over our government and are sequestrating our water reserves? We need to get wise to the way that rich nations got rich – by being pirates and thieves of other countries assets.

    I've got to get my whole roof replaced, and I think the ridge wood needs repairing. Rain all in November, December too close to Christmas, January hot as hell. I think I'll have to wait for January.

  5. greywarshark 5

    Dr Michel Baker usually sounds sensible and informed. His latest suggestion offers a tweek to our quarantine system that would help open our borders wider to countries of worth in the Covid-19 contest between people and virus. https://www.rnz.co.nz/news/national/430096/covid-quarantine-system-we-need-an-additional-step

    But watch out for businesses trying to outrun government as in The NZ Initiative's: ' Instead of officials evaluating the importance of applications, businesses should be able to bid in an auction system, Partridge said.' They have already chosen to run the country into the ground except for the high spots where they build their mansions and towers.

    Also wot abart the workers? The PPE we have isn't good enough to ensure no infection – how can we make get better results? It mightn't be war as we know it Scotty, but it is a battle. And we must look after our staff, especially the front-line workers.

    Nov.6/20 https://www.rnz.co.nz/news/national/429973/covid-infected-nurse-did-everything-right-report-finds

    Do we have them changing their outfits after each patient? That is what is recommended in a paper looking into the hazards.
    https://www.rdhmag.com/infection-control/article/14185691/thanks-to-covid19-we-are-discussing-the-hierarchy-of-hazard-controls-for-dentistry (As a layman I can't assess the quality of the info but it sounds authoritative and informed.)

    During the current COVID-19 crisis, PPE has been a massive concern for health-care workers on the frontlines—and rightly so. Such equipment is designed to protect wearers from hazards. Standard precautions include wearing properly fitting gowns, eyewear, face shields, masks, and gloves.26 After each patient, replace masks and gloves. Furthermore, if any PPE is visibly soiled, wet, or torn, it should be switched out. But not all infectious material is visible. Much of it can land or dry clear—the coronavirus included. Hence, we could be seeing tighter guidelines suggesting complete PPE changes between patients.

    • RedBaronCV 5.1

      I've always seen Prof Baker as a 'day late and a dollar short". It seems to be some weeks after an issue is raised and debated on here that he suddenly seems to be quoted in the media as supporting it as a path of action. I also have the feeling that the business is always right angle appeals somewhat. Runs with the hares and hunts with the hounds maybe?

      As to business bleating about it's skilled workers – it's now 7 months after the border has shut. The arguments for bolstering the workforce with short term unskilled or lightly skilled workers is starting to look hollow. There has been all these months to start upskilling people – why did they not use it if only to train the trainers.

  6. greywarshark 6

    And further interesting news from NZ for those feeling 'ennui' (where are you) after the anti-climax of the USA excitlement!

    Love this. Some fun and No.8 Wire ingenuity and pazazz! https://www.rnz.co.nz/news/country/429743/move-over-rock-n-roll-here-s-farm-music

    And down, or up, country things are going on that are good and amazing. https://www.rnz.co.nz/national/programmes/countrylife/audio/2018771690/farmer-fuelled-by-flour-power

  7. greywarshark 7

    Did you catch up on the latest fact-stranger-than-fiction NZ spy story? https://www.rnz.co.nz/news/in-depth/429696/the-poets-the-spies-the-vodka-and-the-magpies – From Guyon Espiner

    This might be where the interviewer pressed the rentier about how many houses she actually owned, and the question got rolled around like a marble in a bottle. I think this is the right link but haven't checked iit. https://www.rnz.co.nz/national/programmes/morningreport/audio/2018771233/investor-won-t-back-down-on-claims-first-home-buyers-hurting-supply

    • Treetop 7.1

      I would like to have Espiner involved in some historical issues which people are trying to resolve so that they can finally get on with what is left of the rest of their life.

      Stuff which you can actually partially prove but you lack the resources to go after some snakes.

      • greywarshark 7.1.1

        If you think of something then suggest it to him, he might be keen to take it up. He seems to be off like a sniffer dog, so perhaps would like some more leads.

    • McFlock 7.2

      The property investor seem to believe that moving out of a room means that room will be forever vacant.

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