Open mike 08/11/2023

38 comments on “Open mike 08/11/2023 ”

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1. Jester 1

   8 November 2023 at 6:41 am

   The Electoral commission needs a good review to say the least. Makes you wonder how accurate the counts are in other areas where there is only a small margin. They couldn't even get the easy vote cards out to people on time.

   Election 2023: Electoral Commission reviewing voting results after Herald investigation led to discovery of three wrong counts – NZ Herald
   • weka 1.1

     8 November 2023 at 8:02 am

     Sure, let's have a review. And let's also start getting real about how much society's function has degraded because of pandemic and still is.

     We seem to be ignoring staffing shortages, stress, and the impact of high turn over of staff on government departments and private businesses alike.
     • tc 1.1.1

       8 November 2023 at 2:57 pm

       +100 covid was an accelerator for a decline that was already underway.

       Every govt here bangs on about wanting high calibre people yet they offer a public service pay scale and expect fresh thinking.
       • Ed1 1.1.1.1

         8 November 2023 at 5:37 pm

         Thinking! We do the thinking – their job is just to deliver!

         Watch as the NActs strip competence out of the public sector (as they did under Key/English) then leave a mess for the following government.
   • Mike the Lefty 1.2

     8 November 2023 at 8:16 am

     As someone who was worked for the EC in the past in a few different jobs I agree.

     Putting the number of votes on the wrong line in the published results is such an elementary mistake that I shake my head in wonder.

     Not much cross-checking being done, it appears.

     What makes it worse is that one of the parties involved, the Leighton Baker Party, is one of the conspiracy theorist parties that regard our democratic system as dishonest and flawed in any case. What better proof do they need than votes being removed from them and transferred to National?

     This may open up a few more judicial hearings, as frustrated unelected candidates challenge the result based on the mistakes discovered thus far.

     At worst, if there are any alterations in parliament's make up following recounts the whole result could be challenged in court. Unlikely, I admit, but not impossible.

     EC did not do a particularly good job all round this time.

     I knew I should have worked for them, this time, they clearly needed me (joke!).
     • alwyn 1.2.1

       8 November 2023 at 10:13 am

       "I knew I should have worked for them".

       But would you have been able to do the job? Can you demonstrate that you have an understanding of and a commitment to the Treaty of Waitangi?

       Bugger being able to do a clerical job accurately. That didn't appear to matter.

       Meanwhile do you believe that there were no other errors and that the results won't change?
     • Gristle 1.2.2

       8 November 2023 at 9:52 pm

       If it was a conspiracy then the mistake would not have been reported.

       And perhaps just as relevant, who benefit from the mistake? 100 or 200 votes in this one electorate tally made no impact on the result.
   • Belladonna 1.3

     8 November 2023 at 9:25 am

     From the numbers quoted to date – it's unlikely to be a sufficiently large tranche of votes affected to change the make-up of Parliament.

     However.

     This comes after the Electoral Commission assured us that every vote was counted twice – which means that either the same error was repeated twice, or that they have no internal checks to flag a clearly questionable result (change from 1 vote to 18 ; drop from 18 votes to 0 votes at a polling station – out of a total of 40 votes cast, is clearly a significant variation.)

     By the time the official result is declared, the commission would have counted every single vote at least twice. It is also validating the result during this time, ensuring everyone who voted was eligible too, and nobody voted twice.

     https://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/election-2023-electoral-commission-reviewing-voting-results-after-herald-investigation-led-to-discovery-of-three-wrong-counts/MNYX4TGLM5ENFBUQYQL7CM7WZA/

     I doubt very much that any malice was involved, but suspect that the internal processes don't support accuracy (having a whole lot of minor parties interspersed with the larger ones – is an easy way for an error to occur); and it seems evident that they don't have any 'flags' set to cross-check significant changes in totals.
2. Barfly 2

   8 November 2023 at 8:32 am

   New Policy for Labour needs to tick 4 boxes

   beneficial to society

   achievable

   saleable

   preferrably an anathema to Right Wing parties

   I would suggest a wealth tax to pay for dental for all – examination, x-rays, fillings and extractions and a clean. A lot of previous discussion has focused on a Wealth tax replacing or greatly modifying the current forms of revenue for Government I believe that focus is not a hill to die on whereas a Wealth Tax that provides free (or near free) dental ticks all 4 of those boxes and is simple to promote. The RW could certainly say that it is "tax and Spend" – which it is and should be owned by the promoters

   "it's like hospitals mate we tax the nation to spend it on hospitals and be thankfull that we do"

   Another new Policy s would be greater resourcing to the IRD, SFO and FMA

   https://www.stuff.co.nz/national/crime/300878382/newsable-billions-likely-lost-to-tax-evasion-as-white-collar-crime-investigators-go-underfunded.

   This Policy may have some issues as to saleability – using revenue gained to pay down Government debt doesn't sound very sexy plus the RW would beat the George Orwell drum very loudly and mislabel it's focus as being harassing the self employed and 'wealth creators' but it would tick the other 3 boxes very well.

   I truly believe these policies are worthy of serious exanination and would love it if the LW parties could negotiate a common position on these.
   • Ed1 2.1

     8 November 2023 at 5:41 pm

     Wealth tax is very expensive to administer; but it should not be too quickly rejected – the wealthy employ armies of accountants to give the numbers they want. Good change will be very complicated – WFF needs review, as does whether a zero first rate will just benefit artificial arrangements. I would like to see GT lowered slightly, but that does bring in money from tourists . . .
     • Barfly 2.1.1

       8 November 2023 at 6:13 pm

       I thought that with 10% of the Population owning 50% of the country's wealth there would be enough low hanging fruit to pay for dental for all
3. Dennis Frank 3

   8 November 2023 at 8:35 am

   Richard Harman counted them:

   Labour leader Chris Hipkins used the word “lost” 19 times in his media conference yesterday. https://www.politik.co.nz/why-labour-lost/ | Politik

   I suspect that not one of those 19 was Labour lost the plot. I doubt Hipkins is capable of being that honest. However I'm intrigued he felt the compulsion to draw attention to their loss so many times!!

   Even slow learners would get it after about 4 or 5, eh? Perhaps he has a lower opinion of his members than I do?? Or perhaps he hasn't forgotten how Cunliffe gave a victory speech the night he lost, and realises the perpetual danger of delusional thinking within Labour ranks and was drumming it in so as to stop the imminent onset.
   • SPC 3.1

     8 November 2023 at 9:24 am

     Mistrust syndrome? Or just a curmudgeon posing as a sceptic for credibility?
4. Dennis Frank 4

   8 November 2023 at 8:52 am

   The main problem with ACT's treaty referendum is that it deals with a complex issue whereas to succeed, it must simplify everything to a binary yes/no choice. Most people are happy to discuss features of a complex situation but very few are ever happy deciding what to do about it.

   They evade it unless it is a personal necessity to engage it. Consequently, referendum voters will fall into two camps: racists & maori. Hardly suitable for democracy!

   Holly Bennett (Te Arawa, Ngāti Whakaue, Ngāti Pikiao) is founder and kaitūhono ariki of kaupapa Māori lobbying firm Awhi. Her view is significant:

   I oppose a referendum because the proposal purports that one party (the Crown) of a two-party treaty (the Crown and Māori) can unilaterally interpret what the treaty means – through legislation.

   Then legislation, which seeks to redefine the relationship between Crown and Māori, is handed to everyone to vote on. Yet Te Tiriti is not an agreement between New Zealanders and Māori (remember, Māori are also New Zealanders), it is an agreement between the Crown and Māori.

   This is why Tangata Tiriti is not a term I use or repeat, because Te Tiriti is between the Crown and Māori, not the Crown, Māori and every subsequent immigrant who settled here. https://www.newsroom.co.nz/its-not-luxon-who-needs-to-agree-to-a-treaty-referendum-its-ngapuhi

   Debate on historical relevance of the treaty is always useful but we have higher priorities for governance such as inequality & infrastructure.
   • SPC 4.1

     8 November 2023 at 9:19 am

     What is the Crown?

     And if the Treaty is not about a relationship between New Zealanders and Maori, then why is it that governments elected by New Zealanders make decisions that impact on the how the Treaty operates in some/many if not all terms of those governments?

     The Crown operates with/abides by the consent of New Zealanders, as per elections and legislation made by past parliaments etc.

     If the Treaty is taken to the point of being/becoming a constitutional authority in governance, then establishing a written constitution becomes a revolutionary activity (something that diminishes it, if not supplants it).

     ACT aka Seymour wants to have New Zealanders re-write the meaning of the Treaty to prevent the former, but in way that demonstrates a lack of respect for the founding agreement of settlement, the place of the indigenous people and for the rule of law. He should be seen as the grifter he is and dismissed from adult conversations.
     • Dennis Frank 4.1.1

       8 November 2023 at 9:28 am

       What is the Crown?

       Head of our state. Sovereign. A legal entity. Personified by, but not equal to, the monarch. And yes, pakeha nowadays are historically bound by it whilst being mostly unsure of the historical relevance. Ambivalence will be our general response…
       • SPC 4.1.1.1

         8 November 2023 at 10:31 am

         What does the GG sign when something is placed before them?

         The only constraint is with the purview of the Supreme Court and perhaps the WT – presuming someone such as ACT does not do to it what Brash wanted to do to Maori seats (see basic law in Israel etc).

         Or as the Scots once put it, a bad king is no better than an English one, and should be removed.

         The sovereign serves at the privilege of the people. But both are constrained by certain niceties – constitutional principles.
     • weka 4.1.2

       8 November 2023 at 9:37 am

       And if the Treaty is not about a relationship between New Zealanders and Maori, then why is it that governments elected by New Zealanders make decisions that impact on the how the Treaty operates in some/many if not all terms of those governments?

       On the face of it this seemed a strange question but it might be one that many end up wondering about.

       Firstly I would say that Māori are New Zealanders, so it doesn't make sense to say the relationship is between Māori and New Zealanders.

       Secondly, what you are asking is the fundamental of our democracy. We elect governments to act on behalf of the Crown (within limits), but we don't allow all New Zealanders, or non-Māori, that power to act.

       The Crown is the entity that allows NZ to function as a state, and exists within the Commonwealth.

       I'm going to read this later, because I think we need to get up to speed with this

       https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Crown

       btw, afaik, Te Tiriti and the case law and processes over decades are already central to our constitution.
       • pat 4.1.2.1

         8 November 2023 at 6:00 pm

         "But New Zealanders are a practical people and our constitution is quintessentially pragmatic. It seems to me that generations of legal scholars, with honourable exceptions such as Jock Brookfield, and certainly judges and law officers of the Crown, have averted their eyes from studying such matters too closely, perhaps in case they do not like what they find.

         But for practical purposes – and for the purposes of determining what the Treaty of Waitangi means today, I don’t think much needs to change. Both Maori and the Crown thought that, following the Treaty, they would have power of some sort. And they agreed in 1840 that they would share power in some way or other. Neither group could fully anticipate the changes that would occur in the country – particularly in terms of population composition – over the next 10 to 20 years. Implicitly, they agreed to exercise power but the terms of that exercise were unspecified. The balance between sovereignty and rangatiratanga would be struck on an ongoing basis in circumstances as they arise – as has been New Zealand’s whole constitution ever since. The Treaty of Waitangi is the articulation of Maori and the Crown entering a relationship in relation to the exercise of power in New Zealand. And that relationship continues."

         https://natlib.govt.nz/blog/posts/the-treaty-in-new-zealand-s-law-and-constitution
         • weka 4.1.2.1.1

           8 November 2023 at 8:33 pm

           I would have thought that the Brits knew by 1840 that they were going to take over NZ and have mass immigration here.
           • Descendant Of Smith 4.1.2.1.1.1

             8 November 2023 at 8:51 pm

             In the same way that both National and Labour have supported mass immigration to NZ pushing Maori into houselessness and menial work and unemployment.

             As it was, shall it ever be.

             There are masses of positive bi-lingual Maori finishing school shortly for instance who should be immediately given employment before the malaise of no job sets in.

             Will the private sector step up to ensure this happens – that this great asset to their workplace is trained and nurtured and looked after and given meaningful positive employment – unlikely.

             Will the government step up and give them training or jobs in the public sector – not likely.

             Will as time drags on with no job and disillusionment sets in Black Power or Mongrel Mob or name gang of choice give them a place to belong – absolutely. Had this discussion with the local Black Power leader in the 80's as they rounded them up and fed them. He said "we will take as many as you send us".
             • weka …

               8 November 2023 at 9:09 pm

               the mind numbing stupidity and sheer waste of what we are doing is intolerable.

               Otoh, I do think NZ has a lot of potential and resources. Maybe we will get there.
           • pat 4.1.2.1.1.2

             8 November 2023 at 9:04 pm

             I take it you havnt read the link?….I think it worthwhile.
   • weka 4.2

     8 November 2023 at 9:29 am

     excellent point by Bennett, that will rattle a few.

     Completely agree about the problem of using a binary framing to address socio political issues around the Treaty.
   • Leaps 4.3

     8 November 2023 at 10:51 am

     Yes it did boils very complex set of questions/problems down to a single yes or no vote. It's very much like the BREXIT vote in the UK. We all know how well that ended over there!!!
5. weka 5

   8 November 2023 at 8:54 am

   Post up by former Labour Party president

   https://thestandard.org.nz/nigel-haworth-on-labour-at-the-crossroads/
6. Barfly 6

   8 November 2023 at 9:27 am

   This is a serious proposal – Labour should adopt the Green policy or tithing their MP's
7. Reality 7

   8 November 2023 at 10:44 am

   Agree with Nick Rockel's summation of Jessica M-M TV1 news item last night. Will be interesting to see if she is as snide and snarky when she starts questioning Luxon, as she was with Chris Hipkins. Chippy handled it well, kept his responses to her brief and did not overly engage, which sort of tossed the ball back at her.

   I suspect she will be oozy smarm with Luxon.
   • Tiger Mountain 7.1

     8 November 2023 at 12:07 pm

     Yep, it will be back to hot towels, rose water, and under the table handys such as SirKey received from media channel people during his time in office.
   • SPC 7.2

     8 November 2023 at 12:25 pm

     National rule by fear, threaten the Maori seats and have a coalition partner, threaten to do to TVNZ what was done to RNZ ….
8. SPC 8

   8 November 2023 at 12:23 pm

   Tax, tax and tax.

   National tax plans, ACT tax plans and NZF tax plans.

   The tax wars are underway.

   National wants to use a tax on foreigners to fund its tax cuts to locals, and use that bribe to get voters to agree to home sales to foreigners.

   NZ home ownership first will find its virtue compromised if they allow that. Not at any age, Winston the one not to retire so sullied will cry – the beloved country is not for sale.

   Thus it begins, the great unwinding of a tax plan that was a will for two political corpses.

   Thus while National has signalled a date of July 1 for tax threshold adjustments, do not be surprised to see a delay to September or October 2024 – they can cite inflation management – Treasury advice etc. And otherwise getting pre and co-requisite legislation through parliament first. Ducks, rows of ducks.

   And at the end of it all $10 a week for those on MW and a skerrit above and $20 a week for others. Rent will have gone up by more than that by then and those on floating mortgage rates and new fixed rate mortgages might have bigger problems.

   Those who would have got over $40 a week from a MW increase or those in an industry coming up for the FPA Industry Award first round will be left wondering .

   The law covering Fair Pay Agreements, which came into effect late last year, provides for binding agreements setting out minimum employment terms for all employees in an industry or occupation, including such things as standard hours, minimum pay, training and leave.

   Repent at leisure all those who not vote Green and Green dependent others.
9. Barfly 9

   8 November 2023 at 6:18 pm

   Is it that the LW in New Zealand is just so overwhelmingly outfunded by the rich buying policy from the RW that the 'political contest' is almost unwinnable?
   • pat 9.1

     8 November 2023 at 6:27 pm

     Do you shop at the Warehouse?
     • Barfly 9.1.1

       8 November 2023 at 7:08 pm

       Curious question – the answer is exceedingly rarely. What point is it that you are trying to make?
       • pat 9.1.1.1

         8 November 2023 at 7:21 pm

         Apparently they are the highest spenders on advertising in NZ.
         • Barfly 9.1.1.1.1

           8 November 2023 at 8:17 pm

           I feel that the 'products' that the Warehouse and RW political parties sell are so different that they don't lend themselves to like versus like comparisons.

           The Warehouse after Tindall left has evolved into a much less successful company with CEO Nick Grayson performing poorly despite his enormous salary IMO. While they are still selling goods of 'ahem' modest quality their pricing regime is not the same as it was – it's now quite overpriced compared to competitors like K Mart. The market they are in does lend itself to direct comparisons which means their ability to misdirect the public is increasingly limited despite a big advertising spend.

           On the political situation the cost in $ per vote in the last election is very telling – the figures were published here on The Standard recently but I can't put my finger on them the top spenders were per vote were ACT, National and NZ First with Act spending over $20 per vote received – Labour I think spent $1.79 per vote received which I think was less than a third of what National and NZ First spent per vote. In boxing terms it's like Tyson Fury fighting a schoolboy. I believe NZ had the best election money could buy which I find rather depressing as the RW generally enjoys kicking the shit out of the poor.
           • pat 9.1.1.1.1.1

             8 November 2023 at 8:22 pm

             I dont doubt that election spending has some impact on voter behaviour but as with retail advertising I think its impact is grossly overstated.
           • Obtrectator 9.1.1.1.1.2

             8 November 2023 at 11:39 pm

             Where groceries are concerned, I've found The Warehouse is often overpriced by comparison with supermarkets!

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