Open mike 09/02/2015

Written By: - Date published: 6:30 am, February 9th, 2015 - 330 comments
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openmikeOpen mike is your post.

For announcements, general discussion, whatever you choose. The usual rules of good behaviour apply (see the Policy).

Step up to the mike …

330 comments on “Open mike 09/02/2015 ”

  1. Sacha 1

    Stimulating discussion on someone else’s blog then wholesale pasting the results into your own is unethical parasitism. Discuss.

    • tc 1.1

      Yes but there’d be no content if it didn’t get done or dribble from the great white joke. Just like grandad after a few, all rather amusing and sad.

    • cd someone post a donotlink to show what the beige-one actually does..

    • Gosman 1.3

      Why does it bother you what other people do on their own blogs?

      • Te Reo Putake 1.3.1

        PG is an intellectual burglar, Gossie. He comes here to troll and then posts the results on his hate site. It’s disingenuous, dishonest and disruptive.

        • Once was Tim

          Yea well @ TRP – to some people, ‘honesty’ is relative, and to many its just a question of whether or not they’re telling their truth – a soul-less, comfy wee disposition that allows them to function, free of conscience and concern for others in that ‘non-existent’ society they operate in.
          It doesn’t take account of omissions, spin, manipulation, whether or not everyone believes them, etc.
          PG and the colour beige are the perfect examples. Beige is a very honest colour – its the kind of colour you end up with when you tip ALL your paint cast-offs into a pot and mix furiously.
          PG signifies the obliteration of the rainbow and the triumph of whatever the reich # he’s signed up to.
          Poor bastard! The beige bollock looking for an ‘s’ to hang off his end.

      • Read the comment again. It’s clearly not about just “what people do on their own blogs.”

        • Pete George

          Do you think that what’s said on a blog should stay on that blog?

          What’s said in MSM should stay in MSM?

          I think this is more about people reacting to a realisation that social media is a dynamic environment based on many types of forums with many links and interchanges of information.

          Sacha seems to have bought into an agenda that involves trying to shut down inconvenient commentary, he seems very intolerant.

          Call it the anti-Eleanor syndrome wrought with hypocrisy.

          Sacha Farm commandement: All speech is free unless I disagree.

        • Gosman

          Yes it is unless you are stating that there is something wrong with stimulating discussion here. If there isn’t the only problem seems to be that he is posting it on his blog.

          • weka

            Pete believes that his right to shit everywhere here takes precedent over the wellbeing of the community. Imagine if he behaved like this in the local pub.

            He doesn’t stimulate discussion. He specialises in beige derailing. And then he takes those derailments off site and writes about them. It’s actually kind of sick, someone who is so loathed insisting on sticking around.

            • Murray Rawshark

              I’m in Dunedin at the moment and people seem to loathe him here as well. A number have mentioned this to me.

              • Ecosse_Maidy

                PG Magpie Strikes again!
                Why are we so surprised?
                Do we expect better from St PG?
                He Comes,
                He Looks,
                He Cuts & Pastes to His NZ Site.
                I feel your pain Murray.
                Gawd to be so close to him.
                Hes loathed in Dunedin?
                No diarrhoea!?
                I wonder why?
                Perhaps that’s part of his misplaced reasoning to spend 24/7 on His, Ooops, Sorry The Standard, making an arse of himself?
                I just ponder when he stood for election,and
                finished 4th, 5th, 11th or some pile of cak?
                Ok he got slaughtered for his Biege Politics of Me.
                Yet I don’t understand, what posessed people to actually vote for him?
                They cant all be his relatives?
                They could not all have been bribed?
                They cant all be relatives he’s bribed?
                I feel for the people of Dunedin,
                We only have to put up with spouting on a site….
                Imagine, being parked on the same seat as him on a bus?
                In an ATM queue near him? Walking innocently in a park then being swooped upon by the beige one?
                Someone speculated what he would be like in a Pub, probably in Dunedin…..That’s a non point, he would defo have been banned from all Pubs…..for starting fights over the income yield ratio of a bowl of salted peanuts,and had they been fact checked? or the undemocratic nature of a game of pool and the lack of representation of his website on the toilet wall in said pubs….
                I do feel for those people in Dunedin, they need our support and understanding.
                We need to start an emergency fund to provide counselling and protection them from The Beige Elements!

                Please Give Generously!

            • David H

              @Weka He’s our own personal Seagull, squawks loudly and often and shits everywhere!

          • Stephanie Rodgers

            You’re shifting the goalposts, Gosman. First it was “why do you care what people do on their own blogs” – when that wasn’t the issue being discussed – now it’s “what’s wrong with stimulating conversation.”

            This is a tactic people only use when they’re losing.

            • Gosman

              I’m not shifting the goal posts at all as that was my original point. Stimulating debate is generally regarded as a good thing therefore the only objection people who agree with this could have with what Mr George does is that he posts the results on his own personal blog. If you disagree then perhaps you could explain what part of what he does you object to?

              • that was my original point.

                It really wasn’t, as the quotes I copied and anyone who can scroll up can see.

              • One Anonymous Bloke

                First time I’ve seen anything the beige parrot did described as “stimulating”.

                Deadening, derailing, duplicating, certainly, but stimulating??

                Pull the other one Gossie.

        • Sacha

          ‘Inconvenient’ or vexatious? Discuss.

          • Pete George

            vexatious: causing or tending to cause annoyance, frustration, or worry

            Someone involving themselves in political discussions can’t tolerate a bit of annoyance, frustration or worry? Discuss.

            • weka

              Dum Dum Diddle is a song by ABBA, released on their 1976 album Arrival. In 1977 it was released as a single in Argentina on the RCA label.

              When asked “how did ABBA manage to make such a ridiculous and quite banal song as Dum Dum Diddle come alive”, Björn Again founder Rod Leissle said “I think ABBA had a special quality about them. They could put ridiculous lyrics into a song, and because they were fundamentally great songwriters they could make it work. A line like ‘Dum Dum Diddle, to be your fiddle’ doesn’t really make a great deal of sense, but it still works because it’s something you can sing along to and enjoy”

            • framu

              Take, for example, the case of the multinational New State Corporation, which converted decommissioned army personnel with psychological problems into soft toys that taught feral and left-wing children about Jesus. When two employees, Ed Manning and Julien Snowden exercised their freedom of speech to expose the company’s illegal use of black magick (and candy floss) in the conversion process they soon found themselves in prison awaiting trial.

            • ropata:rorschach

              Word of the day at

              sol-ip-SIS-tik , adjective;
              of or characterized by solipsism, or the theory that only the self exists, or can be proved to exist: Her treatment philosophy dealt with madness as a complete, self-contained, solipsistic world that sane people are not able to enter .

              I mean that in the solipsistic sense, the way a little boy sometimes assumes other people wind down like robots as soon as he leaves the room: People seem to stop existing as soon as Pete George turns his eyes away from them.
              — Lauren Groff, “‘The First Bad Man,’ by Miranda July,” New York Times , January 16, 2015

              Solipsistic descends from the Latin terms sōlus meaning “alone” and ipse meaning “self.” It entered English in the late 1800s.

            • Once was Tim

              Task 1
              The colour beige; whether or not crimplene leisure suits are due for a come-back, and whether or not one should accessorise with current trends in headwear and ‘sox’.
              For bonus points, indicate whether or not leisure suits and accessories should be locally made, the implications of using foreign labour and materials in applying the “NZ Made’ label, whether unionised labour force would be a valid contribution to the NZ economy.

              Task 2
              Indicate how you might promote your ideas on social media and the main-stream media giving examples to support your argument

              Task 3
              Without using wikipedia, and only using peer-reviewed research explain “What an argument is”

              This assignment constitutes 60% of the final mark towards your qualification.
              Please submit your assignment through ‘turnitin’ in the usual manner.
              Points will be given for originality, although they may also be taken off for originality (depending on …. well just depending!)
              Your submissions attract a surcharge of $50 plus GST – please ask your parents first). No appeals will be entered into – even if your classmates have copied your work or you can prove originality)
              You’re free to discuss and opine

              The colour beige is a triumph!

              Oh how I Leeeerve you PG! wanna jump in the trunk of my Gremil and make out?

            • tricledrown

              Gorgeous Pete I finally agree with someting you have posted.
              I didn’t expect you self analysis to be so succint!

  2. Morrissey 2

    Remember why a couple of rogue states are pursuing Julian Assange

    The people responsible for the crime in the following clip have stopped at nothing in their determination to wreak vengeance on those who revealed it. One of them, a soldier, was, after a kangaroo court process so blatantly unjust it would have embarrassed Stalin, jailed for 35 years.

    The other man has mercifully, been offered political asylum by tiny Ecuador in its London embassy, right under the noses of his most shameless persecutors….

    • Gosman 2.1

      Interesting you think Sweden is a rogue state. What actions, other than asking for Assange’ s extradition, has Sweden carried out that makes it rogue?

      • Te Reo Putake 2.1.1


      • Morrissey 2.1.2

        Interesting you think Sweden is a rogue state.

        Sweden is a vassal state. Its role in this persecution is that of the quiescent lieutenant. Sweden is like Thailand during the destruction of Indo-China—not involved in the hostilities but a vital cog in the whole murderous process.

        And now might be a useful time for you to go off and do some reading about the destruction of Indo-China. Maybe after you do some reading about Palestine and Syria.

        I recommend you start with the Pentagon Papers. Here, Julia Gillard pretends to respect the whistle-blower who leaked them in 1969…..

    • SaveNZ 2.2

      +1 Morrissey

  3. Skinny 3

    Sounds like Winston Peters will contest the Northland By-Election. The question has to be will the opposition party’s work together and consider not standing candidates giving him the best chance of winning the seat in a head to head battle with the National puppet.

    • Draco T Bastard 3.1

      Nope. They’re all going to fight each other instead.

    • kind of the opposite of the gang-up by these douchebags on harawira/mana..?

      • Te Reo Putake 3.2.1

        Mana’s demise was self inflicted, Phil. The tie up with Dotcom was a fatal mistake, something that KDC is mature enough to acknowledge. It added to the failure to try to come to an accommodation about TTT with the other parties in the months before the election and the mad dream of getting 5% party vote which drained resources that should have been focussed on winning Hone’s seat.

        If mana had really wanted an easy run in TTT, then they needed to do something about it. Specifically, they absolutely had to convince at least one of the 3 other parties to not stand or at least give their supporters a steer toward Hone. Secondly, they had to borrow the ACT strategy in Epsom and campaign on ‘Vote Hone, get Kelvin as well’. They didn’t do either, relied on KDC, and now they’re history.

        It’s not like they weren’t warned, either:

        • phillip ure


          ..the ganging-up was what finally cost the seat..

          ..stop trying a revisionist-exercise on this act of pure perfidy/treachery to the left..

 lab..and nz first/peters..

          • Te Reo Putake

            It’s not revisionism when it’s written in advance of the event, Phil.

            • weka

              Both Harawira and IMPs vote increased in 2014 compared to 2011.

              • nadis

                thats not true at electorate level weka.

                HH 8121
                MP 4844

                HH 8969
                IMP 4246

                While Hone’s personal vote went up, the Mana vote went down. Clear evidence of the DotCom taint?

                • weka

                  The nationwide IMP party vote was higher. You’re looking at the TTT party vote.


                  “Clear evidence of the DotCom taint?”

                  Not that I can see. You’d have to ask the people who voted to find that out. TRP’s analysis is kind of good, but it’s interesting to see how the narrative has shifted over time from it’s all the fault of KDC, to Mana should have been more politically asutute in wooing the other leftwing parties (although to be fair to TRP I think he’s claimed for some time that Mana are responsible for that).

                  Myself, I think Labour decided long ago that hell would freeze over before they gave Mana any concessions, even if that meant losing the election. This isn’t just about election pragmatics and ‘middle NZ’, I think it’s genuine antipathy in Labour towards the militant left and radical Māori. I suspect the Cunliffe was more inclined to do an invisible concession, but when push came to shove, Labour lined up behind Davis in such a way that there was bugger all that Harawira could do. Did Mana make mistakes too? Probably, but that just means they all need their heads banged together like a bunch of playground macho shitheads.

                  I have no problem at all with Mana have a wealthy coalition partner, and Labour and the GP should be ashamed of themselves for being so anti-democratic in their attitudes (although kudos to the GP for not standing anyone in TTT. The GP have the right to be pissed off about the formation of the IMP but not to be hypocrites about small parties working the system).

                • lprent

                  Have a closer look at the numbers and FFS use links. The overall votes went up in 2014


                  Looking at the electorate vote, the issue was that HH didn’t capture the lift in the overall vote. A close election turned out more voters. HH’s vote effectively only grew by 800 and KD’s vote increased by about 1800

                  2014 2011
                  LAB 9,712 6,956
                  MANA 8,969 8,121
                  MAOR 2,579 3,114
                  Other 454 559
                  Invalid 418 912
                  Total 22,132 19,662

                  Total party vote in 2014 22,132
                  Total party vote in 2011 20,255
                  with nearly a 2k difference, you’d have to look at percentages.

                  I don’t know about boundary changes in the 2013 census, but they aren’t likely to have caused too much of change bearing in mind that the overall Maori roll size remained pretty static (form memory)

                  If you are going to argue about this kind of kind of stuff, please use links. Otherwise it always goes round and round in diminishing circles.

                  • swordfish

                    Yep, I see a mix of 3 factors in Hone’s loss:

                    (1) The other parties advising their supporters to Candidate-Vote Davis (NZ First and Labour voters were particularly instrumental in this tactical voting, followed by National supporters. In contrast, Green and (interestingly enough) Maori Party supporters played no role at all in Hone’s demise).

                    (2) A section of 2011 Mana voters swinging away from both IMP (Party-Vote) and Harawira (Candidate-Vote) and moving to both Labour/Davis and NZ First/Davis.

                    (3) A significant chunk of 2011 Non-Voters in Te Tai Tokerau being mobilised and disproportionately choosing Labour/Davis and NZFirst/Davis.

                    (1) and (3) played the major role in Hone’s defeat, with (2) a secondary (but still relatively important) factor.

                    • Colonial Rawshark

                      Very interesting.

                      I see Hone has having taken his eye off his own electorate while he was touring up and down the country, and not using Dotcom’s additional resources in a tactically successful manner in Te Tai Tokerau.

                    • “..and not using Dotcom’s additional resources in a tactically successful manner..”

                      + 1..

          • greywarshark

            The IMP tie up with Dotcom didn’t work out. It could have been good if managed better but Dotcom couldn’t take a back seat and let the politically aware plan the running. It was not cut and dried from the beginning that it could fail, and was a brilliant and innovative idea spoilt in the implementation.

          • Skinny

            Hone sold out and is now enjoying the mega dollars. He didn’t fool enough of his own people.

            • Murray Rawshark

              What megadollars is Hone enjoying? How has his lifestyle changed? I don’t think he sold out at all, he just made a bad tactical decision.

              • SaveNZ

                I think Labour made the wrong tactical decision. They looked desperate the whole way through the election. Fighting each other and minor parties. Labour lost as much as Mana in the sense such a record loss for the 3rd time.

                The point is, that Lab/Green/Mana must learn and not do it again. If everyone still blames everyones else then the left will make the same mistakes again. You have to be honest, be accountable. Work out what YOU could do better, not why everything went wrong.

                Going against Mana with such determination was not a good look for Labour. The biggest cheers when Hone lost his seat was from the National party. How does that look? Labour can’t compete against National so starts bullying the little parties, Dot com tries to point out dirty politics, Labour/Greens side with MSM and dismiss him. Herald polls actually found more people believed Dotcom than John Key on the issues around that time. History was reinvented by MSM and also the left sites and all the political parties, so they could find a scapegoat to what happened. The point is, if you reinvent history minimising your own role in it, you might be doomed to repeat the mistakes.

                Hey, maybe Labour and Greens loathed Dotcom, but who cares? Hone wasn’t about to sell the country to his cronies like National and was only going to get 2 seats so would have very limited power. Labour should have been concentrating on more important things and being neutral at the very least, not putting the boot in to InternetMana, instead of National.

                • lprent

                  Through January and into February, the only attacks I have had to deal with on this site have come from The Daily Blog in the form of Bomber revealing author’s private conversation, and a Mana spokesperson on climate change who was doing diversion comments on posts.

                  Bomber had got wound up (again) after I chastised him for attacking another leftish site and disappearing that sites rebuttal.

                  As far as I can see at present, there is no reason to be bothered with Mana. They are quite successfully killing themselves with a simple lack of internal discipline and a fascination with playing fantasy games rather than politics.

                  One of those areas of fantasy is the idea that Labour needs to play electoral footsie with Mana. The reality is that *any* Labour candidate in an electoral seat will be in it to win and the competition for winnable seats is fierce. Any political party that depends on being a client of another party to get into parliament deserves to die anyway.

                  What Mana need to do is to figure out how to win either a seat or 5%, because those are the rules. As it stands getting 1.6% and no seats is just a recipe for being completely useless. Mana needs to sit down and consider that and start learning how to increase their vote. Having fewer nutters as spokespeople would probably help.

                  It’d probably be nice if they grow from this defeat. But so far the indications are all the other way.

                  Fortunately the two parties I voted for (Green for party and Labour for electorate) are looking like they are getting in better shape. Little and his caucus have 3 years. The Greens are doing another cleanish succession. Both have issues, but at least they have a pretty good grip on political reality.

                  • Pete George

                    Are Mana playing politics at all as a party? They last posted on their website four months ago, on October 7 last year.

                    • Te Reo Putake

                      Are you still a factchecker, racist Pete?

                    • Clemgeopin

                      Instead of worrying about the Mana party, tell us how well is your own hero/patre, Peter-fence-sitting-opportunistic-political-scavenger-Dunne and his and your beloved party, U Fut, is doing on IT’s website, PG?

                    • Pete George

                      Probably very little but I haven’t looked for a long time. You could check it yourself if you’re so interested.

                      Unlike Mana maybe they’re too busy still being in Parliament. They chose not to ditch their principles and get sucked in by a very big and toxic benefactor.

                  • ankerawshark

                    100 +Iprent

                • Murray Rawshark

                  I agree with that analysis, SaveNZ. I put most of the responsibility for the electoral loss on Labour. They seem to want comfort more than anything else, and it’s possible many of them are more comfortable in opposition than in power with Mana exerting pressure from the left. I hope both Mana and Labour have learned from the loss.

                  I also thought the linkup with Dotcom was ridiculous, but once it had happened I pretty much kept my views to myself. Not that I influence anyone anyway 🙂

            • phillip ure

              u have made that claim repeatedly..skinny..

              ..what ‘mega-dollars’..?

              ..plse detail..

              • Skinny

                The hook up between Mana & Internet party’s came with a financial attachment. It was common knowledge that millions exchanged hands. There was quite an uproar that money can buy into Mana. The main benefactor was Hone as Mana was a one trick pony. I note after the election Hone headed off to South Africa on a holiday. Good for him, but I’m not fooled he sold out and paid the price of being dumped to the political wasteland. He is finished in national politics.

                • slurs and bullshit – you are letting your personal animosity colour your outrageous spin

                  • weka

                    I agree, pretty slanderous stuff there Skinny.

                    KDC donates money to IMP and this means that Harawira is on the take because he has an overseas holiday after the election campaign?

                • so..dotcom gave that money..

                  ..a massive internet party infrastructure was set up..a veritable i’m told..(one of the problems..)..all paid generous amounts of money

                  ..all candidates were paid at the backbenchers rate of pay..

                  ..professionals of every ilk..(but the wrong ones..)..were hired..

                  ..advertising planned for the end of the campaign had to be cancelled..

                  ..’cos the money ran out..

                  ..yet in yr fevered imagination..

                  ..harawira pocketed it all..

                  ..and skived off to sth africa..?

         really are full of shit sometimes..aren’t you..?

                  ..and we all understand u don’t like harawira..and that is one thing..

                  ..but making up crap–and accusing someone of outright/blatant a step too far..

                  ..get the fucken mote out of yr

         is making you one-eyed..

                  • Skinny

                    Pull yourself together man, you and your foes cheerleading for the now defunct Internet/Mana party’s is ridiculous. Hone is too unruly it is his way or no way, Maori up and down the country see this and vote accordingly. Dot com was happy donating to bent bankie and chooses deregulation over regulation, in other words he is a neo liberal with nothing in common with the poor, what was Mana thinking, Bradford had the sense to walk and copped flak for her honesty. Laila was fronting campaigning strategy for the Greens,then at the 11th hour forms a new party that would grab some of their votes.

                    BTW I know a former Internet candidate who got sweet fuck all financial support from blowarse KDC.

                    • factcheck:

                      ..on the tour of nz they did..harawira made sure dotcom got to know what poverty looks like in nz..

                      ..and dotcom spoke of that education/eye-opening he got during that tour..

                      ..and i didn’t doubt his sincerity then..and i don’t now..

                      ..bradfords’ ‘walk’ was irrational..and was driven as much by concern at getting a winning list place than anything else..

                      ..suddenly she was out of the picture..

                      ..and that bradford pulled her organising-skills..(which are formidable..)..and her team of supporters from the campaign ..was a factor in that defeat..

                      ..bradford is one of the parents of that defeat…

                      ..the greens told harre she wouldn’t get a winnable list she walked..

                      .and that wasn’t at ‘the 11th hour’…from memory she left the greens in december ’13..

                      ..and was that internet candidate a mana candidate..?

                      ..’cos i know they got sweet fuck all ‘support’…

                      (and that is one of my beefs with those in the higher echelons of the mana party who did his deal..

                      ..given what they nailed down in terms of guaranteed-support for mana/candidates..

                      ..they displayed all the negotiating-skills of a jar of fucken marmalade..)

            ! can roll out those lies..can’t you..?

                    • all you are doing skinny is showing what a blowhard fuckwit liar you are and a puffed up bullshit artist who casts slurs on others with ZERO evidence – sit in the corner with your dunce hat on dimmy

                    • weka

                      “Laila was fronting campaigning strategy for the Greens,then at the 11th hour forms a new party that would grab some of their votes.”

                      citation needed. AFAIK Harre left her job with the GP the previous November.

                      As for the whole Hone’s too weird, no-one likes him anymore, his vote increased between 2011 and 2014, as did the party vote.

                      You sound like someone with a big beef with Mana who is prepared to slander to undermine them.

                    • Skinny

                      Phil your fact check is out my friend.

                      Hone turning up to road show gigs with Dot com traveling in style, as if the mega rich con man has anything in common with poor people who turned up on a rickity old bus. This was a comment from a punter who attended in TTT. Add the flooding where team Davis and his team were fund raising helping people too proud to ask for help. People with very little, no fanfare just doing the work. Meanwhile Hone is off clowning around up and down the country instead of looking after his own patch.

                      Bradford stood a far greater chance of making it back into parliament on the I/M ticket. She was ranked 4 on Mana’s list, so little chance there. Hone was weak on the ground in west auks, Bradford had a solid group there that walked with her.

                      Laila was only weeks beforehand helping the Greens before forming the new party.

                      David Curran got little if any support from Dot com.

                      OK I admit to be a bit hard on Hone but the mistakes made lies at the top. The Tory Maori party were going too suffer a hit in votes and Mana had previously done enough too pull in enough votes to get Sykes home and on a good day maybe Minto. I know plenty of people who worked hard over many years only to be let down late in the game. I couldn’t help give them a bit of late support as a favour to McCartens former main man.

                      Marty it is a wonder you didn’t cop something for your nasty spray, I will chose to ignore parts of your stupid rant.

                    • sure dimmy and I’ll ignore you too – unless you make baseless slurs against Hone – feel free to put up your evidence anytime you like, but I won’t hold my breath on that one…

        • SaveNZ

          Well if the crystal ball was so accurate, then maybe explain how National has now got a majority which they wouldn’t have had if Hone won?

          Maybe Lefties should spend less time being ‘right’ and more time being ‘effective’?

          The MSM is for the left to fight amongst each other for a finite amount of votes. The left strategy should be to work together to ‘grow’ the left vote.

          Get with the corporate speak…. branding.

          Yep why do companies have so many brands under the same umbrella?

          To get different market spheres.

          Labour and Green and Mana have different messages, that does not mean they can’t collaborate under the same Umbrella –

          Decent EqualNuclear Free Peaceful NZ with
          Free health, education and state housing

          Vote for one of the brands (Labour, Greens, Mana) vote for the above

          • Te Reo Putake

            “Well if the crystal ball was so accurate, then maybe explain how National has now got a majority which they wouldn’t have had if Hone won?”

            National would still have a majority, SaveNZ. Hone plus a list MP would have meant 59 opposition seats instead of the current 57. And Labour’s last list place would not have gone to Andrew Little, so, ultimately, the left is better off with this result.

            edit: I like your umbrella analogy (I support the use of voting blocs under MMP), but the Greens and Labour do work well together. mana was the party that preferred to remain independent. Hone was saying only a few weeks before the election that they would likely sit on the cross benches post election, voting issue by issue. Laila Harre, in the days before the poll, recognised the weakness of that position and was more positive about directly supporting a Labour led Government.

            • weka

              Why did Mana take that alleged position TRP?

              • Te Reo Putake

                Nothing alleged about it, weka.

                I assume you mean Hone’s position, rather than Laila’s, and I really don’t know why he took that line. Political immaturity, maybe? Or perhaps he thought he would have more bargaining power post election. Or maybe it’s a family thing; the Harawira’s have never been big on unity. You’d really have to put it directly to him to find out.

                If you meant Laila’s position, I know she’s adept at reading the numbers and I guess she realised that mana needed to position itself closer to the rest of the opposition to both pick up votes and to be credible in neg’s post election. She would be far more comfortable under the umbrella than Hone, for sure.

                • weka

                  The alleged bit is where you put your own spin on it. It might be a fact that Harawira said a few weeks before the election that Mana would sit on the cross benches, but it’s your spin that this is somehow to do with Mana or Harawira not being team players (by a few weeks before the election it was blatantly clear that Labour would rather lose than support).

                  It’s also your spin that Mana = Hone.

                  What is wrong with Mana sitting on the cross benches anyway? Doesn’t mean they wouldn’t support a left wing govt. It more likely means that they are making the pragmatic political decisions you claim they are not.

                  • Te Reo Putake

                    Um, I didn’t put any spin on Hone’s position at all, weka. I just reported the fact that he said he was inclined to sit on the cross benches.

                    “mana was the party that preferred to remain independent. Hone was saying only a few weeks before the election that they would likely sit on the cross benches post election, voting issue by issue.”

                    • weka

                      Labour and the GP like to work together. Hone likes his independence, and comes from a family that doesn’t play well with others. Message, it’s Hone that’s stopping cooperation.

                      (and Labour have resisted working with the GP).

                      Plus, Mana = Hone

                      Plus, omission of the antipathy of Labour towards Hone/Mana and the clear implication that it’s all Hone/Mana’s fault (admittedly I’m getting that from past comments of yours as well).

                    • weka

                      Harawira fostering cooperation


                    • Te Reo Putake

                      To repeat, I didn’t put any spin on it. At the time of his comment about the cross benches Hone was mana’s leader and its only MP. He was speaking for the party. Your phrase Hone=mana may be political shorthand but in the circ’s of that comment its perfectly apt.

                      As for your summary (Labour and the GP like to work together. Hone likes his independence, and comes from a family that doesn’t play well with others. Message, it’s Hone that’s stopping cooperation.) you’re spot on. Hone, and by extension, mana, never did a damn thing to suggest they would be supporting a left coalition post election. It was only when Laila intervened that mana/Internet made tentative steps toward a more positive relationship. Too little, too late.

                    • weka

                      I don’t know what they did or didn’t do, but I do know that Labour took the public position that Mana were untouchables, so the story isn’t quite as you tell it.

                      You do frame the story in a specific way and I don’t think it’s as accurate as you claim.

                      “Your phrase Hone=mana may be political shorthand but in the circ’s of that comment its perfectly apt.”

                      Yeah, nah. It would have been Mana policy to choose the cross benches. Unless you are implying that Harawira runs the show.

                    • Te Reo Putake

                      The story is ‘as I tell it’. Labour made the tactical decision to say that they were ruling mana out because a) they had no indication that mana would support them anyway and b) doing so would partially counter the Nat line that Labour could only govern with Hone/KDC’s* vote.

                      *Yes, I know KDC wasn’t actually a candidate, but the Nat dogwhistle fooled plenty into thinking he was. And any association with him, however tenuous, was a negative for the left, including mana.

                      ps. the cross bench position is not mana policy, at least as recorded on their website. It was Hone’s expressed preference, but as founder, leader and sole MP he had a fair bit of mana. No pun intended.

                    • weka

                      So unwillingness to cooperate on both sides then.

                    • Te Reo Putake

                      Yes! But I still reckon mana had more to lose and needed to be proactive. Certainly, if they are going to make a comeback, then they need to think about issues like this. Maybe joint tickets in the next round of council elections to start with?

                    • weka

                      Labour are more likely to be thinking clearly this time round too 😉

                    • Te Reo Putake

                      I certainly hope so!

                    • given labour had ruled out working with mana..

                      ..what else were they meant to do..?

                      ..sit on the lawn outside..?

                    • trp..

                      “..a) they had no indication that mana would support them anyway..”

                      an outright lie..

                      ..i saw footage of harre saying to cunnliffe before the election.

                      ….how much she was looking forward to helping make him prime minister..

                      yr exercise in revisionism/anti-mana spin/lies is becoming beyond tiresome..

                      “..b) doing so would partially counter the Nat line that Labour could only govern with Hone/KDC’s* vote…”

                      and that was an exercise in craven-cowardice on the part of labour..

                      ..and how fucken ‘wet’ of them to let key/national set the debate/to scare them off like that..

             i said..’craven-cowardice’/campaigning-ineptness on the part of labour..

                    • Te Reo Putake

                      “..i saw footage of harre saying to cunnliffe before the election.”

                      Thanks for confirming what I wrote, Phil! Does that mean you’re joining me in the lie or that you just didn’t read the comments properly?

  4. Shane Le Brun 4

    Another pro Medpot blog post, this time about a woman with CRPS, (Complex Regional Pain Syndrome) widely regarded as the worst pain disorder in existence. The R in CRPS for regional could be subtracted in her case….

    Alternate address

    • Te Reo Putake 4.1

      Why bother with the first address, Shane? Most of the readers here aren’t going to visit the beige troll’s page under any circumstances. Is it really helping your cause hanging out with a racist?

      • Pete George 4.1.1

        Actually you’re wrong. Significantly more people link than grizzle. And the pissiness raises attention and increases the number who link. Thanks.

        I think it reflects very poorly on those who extend personal grudges just out of spite.

        Shane is doing a great job raising awareness on medicinal cannabis. I’d have thought that an important issue like that was far more important than the same old petty politics.

        There’s a small number of people here he seem to prefer to piss on anything and everything rather than try to do something positive.

        As in all parts of society achieving things in politics means looking at ways of working together despite differences. Being the Middle East of blogs can hardly be satisfying.

      • weka 4.1.2

        I agree. You might have missed how badly PG affects this site. Yesterday was particularly bad, and this morning here Pete is arguing for the right to peddle his racism.

        I know you are new to blogging so I guess this is a heads up, but posting the links in the way you do when you don’t need to is going to start to looking inflammatory. You also look like you are intentionally sending traffic to his site.

        At the least, once again the conversation is going to be about Pete instead of about the content of you post.

        • Rosie

          Mickey wrote a great post on Andrew Little’s thoughts around Maori sovereignty and it’s meanings in the Treaty.

          I gave up on reading the comments though. First off, I simply groaned when PG got stuck in and then the second wave came from The Alien. I’m just too tired to put up with all that noise. Usually I pick out comments that aren’t in response to derailers. But yesterday, sigh, that was too much.

          • Murray Rawshark

            The Allen has gone. At least for four months. I think the pathetic creep was actively looking for a ban, and he succeeded.

            PG is a different type of problem, but can, with difficulty, be ignored.

            • Anne

              We may have learned to avoid him by scrolling over him but I’m sure he is sending readers away from this site. In fact, in his jaundiced mind he’s probably proud of it.

              And I agree with weka below. Yesterday was a case in point. It drove me away…

              • weka

                the world will be a better place if the standard becomes less angry and red and more muddled and beige. Pete is doing righteous work.

              • Murray Rawshark

                I suspect he is putting readers off as well, and I suspect that is his motive, in service to his idol, FJK. Unfortunately the ordinary participants on this site don’t have the tools to do a lot about him.

              • greywarshark

                I agree PG fills the pages with inconsequent content. He is hard to ignore and someone will feel constrained to put him right on some point. Then the next four to six comments will all involve him. By that time the thread of discussion is confused.

                Please lprent can we get rid of this trole. In law they have a term litigious for someone who is addicted to repetitive legal activity, that is analogous to what we have from PG here. He adds little, and detracts much. He is like a chronic pain, giving us all commentitis. It makes people scratchy, irritable and uncommunicative. And actually it will give him enjoyable fodder as he plays his unappreciated victim role.

            • weka

              Rosie did ignore him, and how did that work out?

            • Rosie

              Thanks for the update Murray. Alien must have received his ban after the point where I gave up. I got about a dozen comments in from “the (Maori) language is dead/dying” (approximate quote only).

              I would have dearly loved to have left my own response to that but others were doing so well and I didn’t want to give him the gift of a response either – I think he was enjoying himself and I didn’t want to add to the satisfaction. I think he enjoys winding people up.

              • Murray Rawshark

                Let’s just say he has helped me understand why his old boss may have assaulted him and why none of his workmates would take his side. He is a nasty little troll.

                As for PG, he is indeed a vexatious commentator. He may have been starved of attention in the first 60 years of his life and is trying to compensate.

          • weka

            +1 Yesterday we reached a new low point.

    • One Anonymous Bloke 4.3

      TRP is quite right Shane: would you post on a National Front page?

      • phillip ure 4.3.1

        i think he wd..didn’t he say he is a rightwinger..?

        .. who has only come to this issue..’cos of family-needs for med-pot..?

        • Murray Rawshark

          From memory, he said he’s not very political, but tends more to the right. On the issue of medical cannabis, he is allied to your cause. Maybe he eats meat as well? I see no reason to assume he would post on an NF page.

          • phillip ure

            my bad..!..i mistook ‘national front’ for ‘national party’..

   easy enough mistake to make…


            • Murray Rawshark

              Hard not to, in fact.

            • Shane Le Brun

              Lol, I traditionally have voted blue, but I dont see that on the horizon for the forseeable future, despite being traditionally right wing, my favourite MP is Kevin Hague, I loved it when he would make ACC ministers would stutter and stammer in the house.

    • David H 4.4

      At least put up a Donotlink to the beige ones drivel.

  5. fisiani 5

    What a trainwreck this morning hearing Andrew Little on National Radio bleating about broadcasting the Cricket World Cup. He did not even know which firm has the contract. Who briefs him? What’s his beef with foreigners?

    • crashcart 5.1

      Could you be interperating support for Kiwi’s as a beef with foreigners? Actually asking as I didn’t hear it this morning.

      • One Anonymous Bloke 5.1.1

        Spot on Crashcart. That’s exactly what he’s doing.

        Little has raised the issue as so few Kiwi broadcast crew are being employed by the CWC.

        • fisiani

          Duh.. How many Kiwis do you expect in the BBC or Indian broadcasting unit?
          Andrew Little is just pathetically flying the patriotic flag trying to imitate Winston Peters xenophobia. He does not even know which broadcasting company he is accusing.

          • One Anonymous Bloke

            Yeah, it’s only immigration law after all.

          • David H

            Duh yourself Fishy. It’s the World Cup and it’s held in NZ and Australia. Not in India, where somehow they have managed to hijack the World Cup tele rights. But that should NOT give them the right to bring out camera crews and others to do these jobs, and take the food off of the table of the usual camera crew that work and live in NZ. India would NEVER let anyone else work in that capacity in India, so the same should happen here. And if they need Indian speaking people, I am sure there are plenty living in NZ to fill that void as well. So really all they need to bring is their commentators, and leave the rest at home.

    • One Anonymous Bloke 5.2

      An essential skills work visa is just a piece of paper after all. Look, if we’re not going to let companies break the law, how will the National Party get funding?

    • freedom 5.3

      By the way, a company called Star Sports purchased the broadcast rights of ICC World Cup 2015 for USD $2 Billion. Yup two billion dollars US. (Add to that unknown income from ticket sales for the 53 matches.)

      Yet the total prize money for the Tournament is a somewhat smaller figure, $10,225,000

      • vto 5.3.1

        “By the way, a company called Star Sports purchased the broadcast rights of ICC World Cup 2015 for USD $2 Billion. Yup two billion dollars US. (Add to that unknown income from ticket sales for the 53 matches.)”

        Yep, $2 billion. To watch professional business people go about their business.

        There is more than enough in that $2 billion for these business people to pay for their own business premises – you would think. Wouldn’t you?

        But nope – $2 billion goes somewhere else while these business people greedily stick their greedy mitts out for elderly ratepayers to pay for their work premises.

        Professional sports sickens me for this.

        Rugby is even worse

        Sports bludgers


        just like corporate welfare bludgers

  6. Pete George 6

    Three weeks ago RedLogix tried to address the often toxic tone of discussion here (ironically finishing on the The Hypocrisy of Hate post). He lost that battle with the usual suspects openly defying attempts to tidy things up. He hasn’t been back since.

    Yesterday someone asked where Karol was. lprent responded:

    She is having a timeout after some backend disagreements about some political points between some authors and probably exacerbated by author/commenting fatigue.

    They were generally seen as thoughtful and reasonable authors and moderators. Their last comments were on January 14/16th.

    The hit squad has if anything increased it’s activities. I’m just one target, when I’m not here they try to drive away anyone deemed some sort of enemy, often based on very little other than jumped conclusions or little more than random targeting. Several times lately new commenters have been mobbed, and most simply can’t be bothered with that sort of thing so leave.

    New opinions are not welcome, and decent discussion is continually disrupted. I’m just a scapegoat they hide behind.

    Anthony and mickysavage have been churning out thoughtful and thought provoking posts worthy of debate, but that’s continually overshadowed by diversions and personal attacks.

    What happens here is up to those who make and enforce the rules.

    I know I’m not everyone’s cup of tea and am a common scapegoat but this permeating pissiness and trying to shut down any unwanted voices is more widespread. If I disappeared the blog bitches wouldn’t.

    They obviously aren’t interested in promoting a Labour led left, they do far more damage to that cause than good.

    I think it’s worth asking what the motives are of the dominant and intolerant minority are (recognising an unwillingness of most to make themselves targets). It seems to be more than an entrenched mongrel strain.

    You don’t succeed in politics by trashing everything. Why the shitting in their nest?

    The usual confirmation of the same old is bound to follow this comment but if it’s not addressed then I don’t like the left’s chances, as this is a symptom of a left with nothing but bitterness unless it’s some weird self destruct agenda.

    [lprent: “blog bitches”. I suggest that you don’t repeat that anywhere further after now (1222) on this site (or even any other). As far as I am concerned that appears to place you squarely in the thoroughly unpleasant misogynist fuckwit troll camp. I normally just ban idiots who reveal that kind of level of insane bigotry for race, colour, creed, or gender.

    I’m unprepared to offer commenting space to any fuckwit who can make my skin crawl with disgust as I did when I read that phrase. It just reeks of a supercilious misogyny and is just as denigrating as similar race based bigotry.

    It is a term that I am not prepared to tolerate from anyone. However, hopefully you are better than one of those idiots.

    You are on suspension until you apologise in public here for using that phrase. In particular you will apologise to the third of our readers who are women and the slightly higher percentage who comment. ]

    • Te Reo Putake 6.1


    • freedom 6.2

      Q: Why should anyone on the left listen to advice from a self-confessed National supporter?

    • mickysavage 6.4

      The trouble Pete is your debating style. You often deflect and refuse to accept what appears to the rest of us to be very obvious. And posts like this where you claim martyrdom do not help.

      As an example of the former your comment this morning on the Sabin post is an example. You said this:

      There are no facts about what they were told, and when they were told it. There are no facts about what if anything was passed on to the Prime Minister. Unless I’ve missed something.

      Your statement that there are no “public” facts cannot be supported because the Police Commissioner has pretty well said that the Minister was told. You do not have personal knowledge of what may have been said obviously. But you then convert your personal ignorance into an assertion that there is no actual evidence that the Minister was told.

      And as Sacha has pointed out you have this habit of causing a ruckus in a thread and then blogging about it suggesting that the Standard is full of terrible closed minded people.

      So a couple of suggestions:

      1. Best that you do not assert that personal lack of knowledge of anything is not proof that evidence does not exist.
      2. Do not claim martyrdom when others have a go at you because of your debating style.

      • weka 6.4.1

        Good luck with that micky, but IMO you can’t teach a trole new tricks, because then they would have to give up being a trole.

        • greywarshark

          You can lead a nag to water, but you can’t make him think. Hahhahahahaha I’m getting unhinged I think.

      • Pete George 6.4.2

        You often deflect and refuse to accept what appears to the rest of us to be very obvious.

        Your statement that there are no “public” facts cannot be supported because the Police Commissioner has pretty well said that the Minister was told. You do not have personal knowledge of what may have been said obviously. But you then convert your personal ignorance into an assertion that there is no actual evidence that the Minister was told.

        1. Best that you do not assert that personal lack of knowledge of anything is not proof that evidence does not exist.

        What? I said “It is undisputed that the police told the Minister of Police something.”.

        Is that not obvious enough for you?

        Can you tell me what the Minister was told? Which Minister? When? The answers to those questions aren’t obvious to me so perhaps you can help.

      • Sacha 6.4.3

        Well put, MS. Absence of evidence is not evidence of absence.

        Just because someone is unable to form a watertight legal case about what is going on from limited facts does not mean nothing is going on. And whose interests does it serve to pretend otherwise?

        • weka

          Yeah, but do you think there is any point in trying to have a conversation with Pete about that?

          • Sacha

            About anything?

            • weka

              either the example micky brought up, or anything.

              • Sacha

                I meant is there any point about anything? it’s like wrestling a tepid blancmange.

                • weka

                  I think we are infected 🙁 The only decontamination technique I am aware of is ridicule.

                • “’s like wrestling a tepid blancmange…”

                  + 1..

                  • Rosie

                    I liked it too.

                    Blancmange, as a band however would be a more interesting wrestle.

                    • McFlock

                      Blancmange was formed in Harrow, Middlesex in 1979 by singer Neil Arthur (born 15 June 1958, Darwen, Lancashire) and instrumentalists Stephen Luscombe (born 29 October 1954, Hillingdon, Middlesex) and Laurence Stevens. Stevens left shortly after the band was formed, and Arthur and Luscombe continued as a duo. The duo released their first EP, Irene and Mavis, the following year, but their first real exposure came via a track on the seminal Some Bizzare Album, alongside fellow acts Soft Cell and Depeche Mode. This led to them signing a recording contract with London Records.

                      Good name for a band. Learn something new every day.

                      old school music 🙂

                    • Rosie

                      Blancmange made a come back in 2011 and put out a great album, “Blanc Burn”. Still in my top 10 for the last 5 years.

                      Here’s a track called The Western. There is no bad songs on this album by my tops would be “by the bus stop at woolies”, “ultraviolent”, “I’m having a coffee” and “starfucker”


                      Now we come full circle by getting back to the topic of PG as a tepid blancmange. You will note there is an image of a blancmange on the album cover. It ain’t beige though.

      • Pete George 6.4.4

        2. Do not claim martyrdom when others have a go at you because of your debating style.

        I haven’t claimed martyrdom.

        It’s interesting that you choose to make my comment about me and focus on my ‘ debating style’ and no one elses’. Do you disagree with what I said?

        • framu

          Rising costs meant that even the once reliable trading of unsatisfactory citizens was not enough to feed expanding budgets. Additional revenue sources had to be found.

    • If I disappeared the blog bitches wouldn’t.

      Gosh, who could Pete be talking about? 🙄

      • Pete George 6.5.1

        I should have said bitchers to avoid any gender confusion.

        • One Anonymous Bloke


        • weka


        • Clemgeopin

          I should have said bitchers to avoid any gender confusion

          You are often quite a vexatious blog breacher, Pete.
          You should try being a little reasonable and better reasoned in your responses. It is a little ingenious or ingenuous to be on a left oriented board and keep subtly pushing the RW agenda, mixed with a tiny smattering of a few nice words about the left here and there.

          Definition: Breacher

          *A person that breaches something, as in a door.
          *The hottest man on the SWAT team.
          *Breacher uses force to forcibly open a door, a window or other obstacle and usually make a mess of things.

          • Pete George

            You’re wrong. While it’s still important to hold Key and his government to account I’m more interested now in Labour’s recovery as that now seems feasible. I see that as crucial in getting a better balance of power in Parliament and getting prepared for leading the next government.

            Andrew Little looks promising as leader and the Labour caucus may have finally woken up to the importance of unity (yet to be proven) but the left in general seem fixated with the trivial and negatives. When do you think that might change into an emphasis on positive promotion?

            • McFlock

              Thanks for your concern, National Party supporter.

              • Pete George

                I’m not a National party supporter. I’ve voted for four parties this century.

                I’ve been more of a disillusioned Labour voter for the last two elections. In 2009 I approached Labour but they didn’t seem interested in fresh input, they only seemed to want silent lackeys.

                • One Anonymous Bloke


                  • Pete George

                    Yeah, no doubt you’ve been laughing for the last six years. It’s common to see people with similar claims of being blown off by Labour. Pissing voters off is easy, getting their vote back not so much.

                    Something you would seem to have no idea about – unless you don’t want people to vote for Labour which I wouldn’t rule out.

                    • One Anonymous Bloke


                      Can you fact check those assertions for me, after all, your personal track record is one of electoral humiliation.

                    • Pete George

                      No it’s not. I’ve supported the outcome of every election this century. I certainly wasn’t connected to the substantial humiliations that occurred last election.

                    • One Anonymous Bloke

                      176 votes, down from 229. Your biggest personal failure prior to Politicheck, which failed.

                      And now you’ve found your station: racist internet tr*ll.

                  • Pete George


                    • McFlock

                      [sotto voice] jerkoff says “what”
                      Damn, was hoping to be able to subscript it 🙂

                      Pete, if someone asks “everyone called fred” for their opinion, and you answer, then either your name is fred or you’re wasting everyone’s time. Pick one.

                    • freedom

                      Pete, the question could not have been any more specific.
                      It was for National Party supporters or National Party voters.

                      You answered the question directly, thus positioning yourself as a supporter of, or voter for, said party.

                    • Pete George

                      Paul was the first to respond. I don’t think that makes him a National supporter.

                      I gave my opinion but not as ‘a National supporter’. That shouldn’t be a difficult concept to understand.

                      I do partially support National. And the Maori Party. And Labour. And Greens. But that doesn’t make me ‘a supporter of’ any of them specifically.

                    • freedom

                      Paul did not respond to the question Pete.
                      @11.1 he commented on whether Gosman would.

                      BIG DIFFERENCE.

                      You are the only person who responded TO the question.

                    • One Anonymous Bloke

                      The beige racist parrot “supports” all the political parties. Can it be a coincidence that electoral participation is falling?

                    • Pete George

                      This might be a bit beyond your level of comprehension OAB but the better all the parties perform the better Parliament will perform, so generally I support parties where I see fit.

                      Supporting a single party and trying to trash the rest is one party state sort of stuff, which I don’t support.

                    • weka

                      Compression stockings are a specialized hosiery, designed to help prevent the occurrence of, and guard against further progression of venous disorders such as edema, phlebitis and thrombosis. Compression stockings are elastic garments worn around the leg, compressing the limb. This reduces the diameter of distended veins and causes an increase in venous blood flow velocity and valve effectiveness. Compression therapy helps decrease venous pressure, prevents venous stasis and impairments of venous walls, and relieves heavy and aching legs.

                    • lol – so caught there pete, so caught

                      Slugs, like all other gastropods, undergo torsion (a 180° twisting of the internal organs) during development. Internally, slug anatomy clearly shows the effects of this rotation—but externally, the bodies of land slugs appear more or less symmetrical, except for the positioning of the pneumostome, which is on one side of the animal, normally the right-hand side.

                    • weka

                      I think that one takes the cake marty, best laugh of the day.

                    • McFlock


                • now that is seriously funny…!..(’ spurning by labour..)

                  ..and i see dunny-brush has been erased/revisioned out of the picture….

                  ..whereas his ugly-mug should be front and centre in p.g.’s political-history..

    • Rosie 6.6

      “Yesterday someone asked where Karol was. lprent responded:………..”

      That some one was me Pete George. I don’t think you read LPrent’s response in full. You have twisted his words to suit your “poor me” buzz. Go back and read his response.

    • Definiton of spam

      noun: spam; plural noun: spams; noun: Spam

      irrelevant or inappropriate messages sent on the Internet to a large number of recipients.
      unwanted or intrusive advertising on the Internet.
      “an autogenerated spam website”
      a canned meat product made mainly from ham.

      verb: spam; 3rd person present: spams; past tense: spammed; past participle: spammed; gerund or present participle: spamming

      send the same message indiscriminately to (large numbers of recipients) on the Internet.

    • Pete George 6.8

      I’ve already said below I shouldn’t have used that term. I didn’t intend anything gender specific, it was a mistake. I unreservedly apologise for using the term, it wasn’t appropriate at all.

      [lprent: accepted. ]

  7. Anne 7

    I hope this latest load of rubbish from PG is enough to get him banned. He’s a lost cause who has the gall to accuse others of derailing and diversionary tactics… when he is by far the worst offender.

    His ongoing nonsense is what is driving readers and potential commenters away.

  8. Hone has written an excellent article called NGAPUHI – 175 YEARS AFTER THE TREATY

    And those hearings have been some of the greatest hui in modern Ngapuhi history, with kaumatua and kuia digging into musty cupboards to pull out notes, waiata, haka, speeches, karakia, genealogical records, flags, weapons and photographs, and calling upon their own remarkable memories to present a wonderful and powerful statement about Ngapuhi’s diverse histories to the Waitangi Tribunal. And that has led to the creation of a deep historical record of Ngapuhi interaction with the Pakeha and the Crown that never existed before.

    And those hearings have seen more Ngapuhi gather than at any other event in recent history, drawing in thousands and thousands of descendants to sit and listen to testimony never before presented in public.

    And before those hearings have even finished a book has already been written about that history from a hapu-based perspective called Ngapuhi Speaks, a book which has been eagerly snapped up by claimants, as well as by academics, government officials, lawyers and even judges, all keen to get an understanding of the mindset of those who have lived longest with Te Whakaputanga o Niu Tireni (the Declaration of Independence of New Zealand) and Te Tiriti o Waitangi (the Treaty of Waitangi).

    The way we learn about other people is to listen to what they have to say and if we are lucky we get insights into the thought processes and thinking of those people – this is a gift not given lightly.

    • Murray Rawshark 8.1

      I really liked reading that. Hone knows his history and doesn’t hold back on the message to pacify racist motherfuckers. We could do with a few more like him. People like Titford and Ansell basically have the resources of the Key regime behind them, but Ngapuhi have the righteousness of their cause.

      • weka 8.1.1

        I liked it too, good stuff, and I learnt important things about Ngapuhi and their role in the wider treaty processes.

  9. ankerawshark 9

    Not sure if this has been posted already, but Audrey Young doing her bit for John Key and National…………………..associating Andrew Little’s “captain’s call” with Tony Abbot.

    Surely journalists should be more focussed on critiquing the government, rather than attacking and undermining the opposition leader. Afterall, it is the government that has the power.

    But no, not the Herald. First Claire Trevitt, then John Armstrong’s article on how silly the left are to focus on calling Key a liar. And now Audrey Young. All in the last week. Why so much focus on Labour’s leader, rather than government???

    National must be very worried about Andrew Little.

    • Rosie 9.1

      Speaking of lies ankerawshark – I think it would be helpful if Key’s lies were laid bare, and put under the noses of those journalists that worship at his feet.

      Is it not time for BLIP to publish “Key’s bumper book of lies” ?

      The publishing and printing costs could come from crowd funding. I’m broke but would rustle up $10 to contribute. Others who are in a more comfortable position can contribute more.

      Just choosing the right time to release it would be the question…………..

      • Ffloyd 9.1.1

        I could manage a hundred. And then I would buy a copy. Would love to see The List published. Can think of some key people who wouldn’t.

      • BassGuy 9.1.2

        You can count me in. I’m also skint, but I’d skip a few meals and put $10 in.

      • weka 9.1.3

        it’d need lawyer costs too.

        Wasn’t there discussion about putting out posters and a website?

      • Murray Rawshark 9.1.4

        I’ll throw $200 in.

        • Rosie

          Great! 4 donors in less than two hours! Think what could be achieved if such an idea became a reality?

          You don’t have to write the whole book BLiP, (aren’t we generous!) you could choose political writers and commentators to cover the intro, certain areas and specific topics, and summary.
          Permission could be obtained from cartoonists that have lampooned Key over the years and the book could then be illustrated with their lie themed cartoons (I recall Tom Scott has done a few about not-quite-so-trues).

          It could be a book funded by ordinary people as a service to their ordinary fellow humans, people to people.

          We may not have the $$$ of the right, but we have the numbers.

          Then there would be no more denying the lying………

          • Murray Rawshark

            Cartoons are good for keeping things at the level of uncertain NAct voters.

      • lprent 9.1.5

        I will consult with Lyn about doing a givealittle campaign. I’d be into contributing for that.

      • Lanthanide 9.1.6

        The problem is, a lot of BLiP’s list aren’t actually lies.

        It’s only a lie if you *know* it to be untrue *at* the time it is said.

        • Murray Rawshark

          Let the reading public decide whether they care about that or not. Tom Scott’s stuff about Muldoon seemed to have an effect.

        • Rosie

          That may be Lanthanide but there remains a lot of material, and it can be sifted through, and crystallised.

          John Key, despite everything, and despite the publication of Dirty Politics is still the media’s darling, even if he is finally only just a little, ever so slightly tarnished. Some journalists were momentarily offended by the contents of The Book, and Nicky Hagar said many were anxious to know whether they were implicated, but then what? Nothing changed.

          Have a look at the comments section. The bulk of the commenters are still buying the Nat Govt BS two track system, (which still seems to be operating) and it’s largely because they have blind faith in Key. That really needs to be challenged and the media won’t do it.

          Rawshark was a spectacular one person army. Imagine what a group of us could do?

          • greywarshark

            @ Rosie and Other Commenters
            If the list was printed out it would have a big effect. If it was an ebook it would potentially reach more people.

            Just for interest I got a price on a 10 page A4 double-sided document, stapled, at top left, and for 100 copies it would be $144.inclusive of GST.

            I have no idea of how many pages. BLIPs list is long but probably not that long. Some cartoons would be good though. (Have to get permission.) Especially one for the first page or cover. Having 120 gram covers back/front of thicker paper would be good but would mean cost increase and collation charge. Stapling – to have two in so held firmer, may be possible.

            That’s the basics to think of if printing out through a commercial copier that is well run as I think this shop is.

            Note my idea about naming. Slys or lies then doesn’t make a difference.
            Can I have some feedback about this. There seems to be a lack of interaction with commenters except PG who attracts it like a maggot (sorry, magnet).. Which I think is unfortunate.

            • Rosie

              Hey Warbs (and clem, wags and David).

              Onya Warbs for your enthusiasm and looking into printing costs already! Such engagement is very encouraging 🙂

              Whilst being wary of plagarising style and format, I’ve had a squizz at my copy of DP, just for inspiration. It is 138pg followed by 22 pg of endnotes – the references, and then the index. Published by Craig Potton Publishing. Not sure where it was printed but I see The Hollow Men was printed by Astra Print in Wellington.

              I was thinking of BLiP’s List more as an essay, rather than a list. It would be sown together by inter related themes of lies (and agenda’s?) and bigger than a booklet type format. It needs to engage the reader, get them thinking and encourage them to search further, rather than just providing them with a list. Lists are for the supermarket. In fact, BLiP’s List should really be referred to as BLiP’s chronicles.

              Books to be distributed to libraries, independent book stores and to the chains via a distributor.

              Agree with David that an e Book should be available.

              As for titles, I’d stay away from the word “politics”. It seems to be a word that turns off those with a disinterest in politics. I think the book needs to be aimed towards regular folk who may only have a passing interest in politics every three years. (we are providing a service to our fellow NZer’s!) Keep it simple, as much as you possibly can with such a volume of information.

              Wonder what BLiP thinks of this craic?

              Tell us to butt out of you like. It’s your work 🙂

        • greywarshark

          It could be called Politics Bared : John Key’s Slys. That way people would get the idea and yet the word would not have been said. I would put something in $20 and up depending on the budget.

      • Clemgeopin 9.1.7

        Yes, I too will be happy to contribute a little.

        I have a suggestion and some views/questions:

        * For a printed book, just the links to lies will be a problem unless a heading and a brief or detailed summary of the incident is given first above for each of those lies.

        * I think a book like that will generate huge international, national and National interest, curiosity and shock to see the ‘King has no clothes’.

        * May be some universities will prescribe it as a text for posterity for study in their ‘Politics 101’ course.

        * What is the expected cost for a first run of say, 10,000 copies?

        • greywarshark

          @ Clemgeopin
          I put a comment above with a price for a basic 100 copies. It might be a good idea to actually run off a basic few so there is a print out to work with, and to expand as you suggested. Then there is something to show to printers and to be changed around for a a bigger and better print job. Perhaps going first step would be a good idea, then that has been done.

          Also I mention that some of the small photocopying/printers have flexible ideas about property, intellectual property etc. A friend spent a huge amount of time on a project then found it in libraries with which she had never corresponded. The firm had been paid for the copying and putting together, but then took it over.and I don’t think she was paid for any they sold. If they were acting as agents, which had never been agreed, they would have only been entitled to a small handling percentage. And they didn’t make a good effort requiring a lot of proof reading and corrections. So with this sort of thing there would be a need to go to some reputable printer as you say, a university press.

      • David H 9.1.8

        A book like that would be great BUT it would have to be an E Book due to the huge amount of accompanying corroborative links.

  10. Jenny Kirk 10

    I listened to Andrew Little’s korero on Te Tii Marae the other day, and what he was saying reflects some of what is in Hone’s Mana Mag article that Marty Mars has linked to. ie : that settlement of Treaty issues was not the end, but just the beginning and after the settlements Pakeha, Maori and Govt needed to look at how to make the Treaty “come alive” .

    If I’m reading Hone correctly – as quoted below – then this is similar to what Andrew Little was saying on Te Tii Marae. Which of course must be why all the mainstream media are trying to denigrate Andrew’s contribution. And why the Nats must be worried about Andrew Little.

    The Nats want the whole Treaty “thing” done and dusted before the next election with no further discourse on what comes next ….. that would be too, too disturbing and disruptive to their cosy corporate way of thinking.

    “” But I don’t think our tupuna signed Te Tiriti o Waitangi in 1840 so that ‘full and final’ settlement would be reached in 2015, or that Te Tiriti would become ‘null and void’ when the settlement process was over, or that the promise of partnership raised during the debates of the time would be ended at the signing of a Deed of Settlement.””

    • weka 10.1

      It makes me much more hopeful about Labour to hear Little talking about these things (apart from the unfortunate phrasing around how difficult it would be).

    • marty mars 10.2

      I agree with you Jenny – interesting to see how scared key is now

      Prime Minister John Key says Andrew Little’s comments at Waitangi on Maori sovereignty were advancing “separatism.”

      “I reckon he would be leading New Zealand completely down the wrong path,” Mr Key said at his post cabinet press conference today.

      Mr Little told reporters the Waitangi Tribunal finding that Nga Puhi did not cede sovereignty should not be dismissed and that models of indigenous self-governance and law-making around the world should be explored.

      “In 1840 when we singed the treaty, it strikes me we signed it for modern New Zealand, and that was a New Zealand where we co-habitated and ran the country together. It wasn’t about separatism. It was actually about community and Andrew Little is basically suggesting that we had down a path of separatism.”

      Nice that they got what andrew said but what about key????

      in 1840 we signed for modern nz???

      where we co-habitated and ran the country together???

      it was actually about community???

      I’m quite blown away by key and these lines – how much more bullshit can we take – I mean come on, WTF!!!

      btw – the subeditor needs a good talking to too.

      • Incognito 10.2.1

        Key’s scaremongering again with his comments about “separatism”. It’s a bit rich from a guy who is running a two-tier economy and trying his utmost to divide the country.

        • McFlock

          He’s blowing his dogwhistles like they’re trumpets.

          Key’s so opposed to seperatism that he wouldn’t even treat sabin differently.

    • newsense 10.3

      It’s a full on attack.

      I don’t know why they didn’t front foot Key’s historical revisionism.

      We weren’t a modern NZ nation in 1840- FFS we didn’t even adopt the statute of Westminster until 1947.

      I don’t know why they didn’t front foot this. Now the Nats are calling the tune on this.

      Maybe a patient approach is good, we’ll see.

      But it seems to me Key is more than happy to give up sovereignty, just not to people in NZ- TTIP- but to invester-state whatever clauses…

      We were a small part of a British Empire for over a hundred years, not a modern nation, and now Key with his ridiculous expensive flag debate, would have us fake the symbols of nationhood, while being a newly minted member of the ‘family’ (much better in quotes like that) or that special club, while we have foreign intelligence agents in our cities and perhaps funding and even drafting our laws….plenty of sovereignty going around for sale it seems…again, not to those who live in this country or were here before…

      should ask Obama what he thinks about first nations and their compatibility with the 5 eyes or can we only be in that if we write out of our history any disputes, wars or conflicts?

  11. weka 11

    Meanwhile, Rome is burning.

    • McFlock 11.1

      Was someone fiddling?

      Or was there an outbreak of luting? 🙂

      • weka 11.1.1

        Plenty of fiddling while we’re all distracted by the beige lyre, who also does the luting.

      • joe90 11.1.2

        Sorry about that weka, missed your reply and deleted the SpaceX Falcon 9 launch post when liftoff was scrubbed.

        Fiddling, yeah nah, the payload is an aid to climate science.

        It is intended to be positioned at the Sun-Earth L1 Lagrangian point, 1,500,000 kilometres (930,000 mi) from Earth, to monitor variable solar wind condition, provide early warning of approaching coronal mass ejections and observe phenomena on Earth including changes in ozone, aerosols, dust and volcanic ash, cloud height, vegetation cover and climate. At this location it will have a continuous view of the Sun and the sunlit side of the Earth. It will take full-Earth pictures about every two hours and be able to process them faster than other Earth observation satellites.[3]

        • weka

          no worries.

          Got a cost/benefit analysis based on cradle to grave footprint?

          Best I could find quickly was this, which focusses on ghg emission from partial costs of fuel production, and from the burn.

          • McFlock

            [re: rocket carbon footprint] Probably not brilliant, if only because the particular rocket is lox & kerosene powered.

            I figure it’s a bit like flying people to a global climate summit – there aren’t too many ways to get satellites into orbit.

            An informal indicator of its value (as in its waddle and quack characteristics, if not exact taxonomic classification) is that it was shelved after GWB was inaugurated and dusted off in November 2008.

            • weka

              My point is that it’s not enough to say that this piece of science helps us with AGW issues (or the other urgent environmental issues). We have to look at what the actual impacts are. That we don’t even do cradle to grave footprinting properly yet is gobsmacking. That’s where some of the resources should be going.

              If it turns out that the Falcon costs x but provides y and y is a significant player in addressing AGW, then go for it. But the vague we’ll get some benefit from it thing just isn’t good enough.

              • McFlock

                Should carbon footprint be grounds for cancelling any particular space mission?

                I don’t think so. Space exploration is the one way we can get off this rock and maybe exist longer than the next big asteroid impact, even ignoring the other issues facing humanity. Every launch gets us closer to that final objective, imo.

                • weka

                  Even if that were ethically defensible (it’s not), we don’t have time. Either we take CC seriously now, or we keep frittering away what little time we have left.

                  “Should carbon footprint be grounds for cancelling any particular space mission?”

                  I think you are still missing the point. Let me put it incredibly bluntly. If science can’t even manage cradle to grave footprinting (not just carbon) in the face of catastrophic CC, it’s inept. Everything else is just playing with toys, or fiddling while Rome burns. I don’t blame individual scientists (obviously there’s a huge amount of good work being done in multiple areas), so much as the reductionist world view that separates the space programme from our impending doom. That and greed and cognitive dissonance.

                  • Colonial Rawshark

                    Space launch capability is a matter of national pride for many nations. It is also a key military/surveillance technology. Not to mention the likely weaponisation of space, holding of nuclear warheads in orbit ready to be dropped down at a moments notice etc. which for some nations would be seen as major priorities.

                    Climate change and saving mankind? Not so much.

                  • McFlock

                    Actually, CC could well result in us having to bail from the planet. Either way, that’s Musk’s objective.

                    Science can do the math of the carbon footprint. Whether anybody has bothered to fill in an environmental impact statement – who knows. The paperwork might be there, but I doubt anyone has bothered to OIA request it. A 500 tonne rocket compared to a 300 or 400 tonne 747. Probably not all that much of a footprint.

                    • weka

                      Like I said, it’s not ethically defensible and it’s not possible in the timeframes we have left.

                      I’m not talking about carbon footprints. Your glib attitude is a good example of the dynamic I am describing.

                      CV, yep.

                    • McFlock []

                      preservation of the species isn’t ethically defensible?
                      Timeframes: maybe, maybe not.

                      But we’d be numpties not to try. With or without footprints of any sort.

                      BTW, read the link about the satellite. It isn’t military. Loads of better machines are closer for surveillance. It can’t rain down nukes. And the launch is by a private company, not a national agency.

                    • weka []

                      “preservation of the species isn’t ethically defensible?”

                      Not if it means leaving millions of people to die, not to mention the rest of life.

                      “Timeframes: maybe, maybe not.

                      But we’d be numpties not to try. With or without footprints of any sort.”

                      We’d be numpties to place our last bet on colonising Mars instead of saving Earth, esp as the tech to save Earth exists now whereas the tech to get to Mars is going to contribute to us not saving Earth. Barking. Mad.

                      “BTW, read the link about the satellite. It isn’t military. Loads of better machines are closer for surveillance. It can’t rain down nukes. And the launch is by a private company, not a national agency.”

                      Are you making the argument that science used in one area isn’t useful in another?

                      My point stands. There is something very very wrong with the fact that we aren’t doing cradle to grave footprinting how as a matter of course and using everything we have to mitigate the worst of CC. We’d rather play with our toys.

                    • Poission []

                      The primary mission is to observe changes in the sun,and act as an early warning in the event of a HALO coronal mass ejection (cme) being earth directed.

                      With a probability of around 1 in 8 being a catastrophic event over the next 10 years it is a reasonable investment allowing for shutdown of critical infrastructure.


                    • weka []

                      That might well be, but it still misses my point.

                      What are the chances of us being locked into catastrophic climate change in the next 10 years? More than 1 in 8?

                      Edit, looking at that link, let’s just look at the two different kinds of catastrophic. Solar flare brings down western civilisation vs run away climate change which threatens the human species along with all ecosystems and life in the planet.

                    • McFlock []

                      Sorry, went to bed. It was turning into one of those arguments again.

                      Part of the satellite’s mission is to measure the Earth’s albedo and other climate factors. So yeah, one mission adds to the knowledge of both types of catastrophe.

                      The fact is that we are already facing catastrophic climate change. The weather is getting more extreme. We are looking at the largest global temperature increases in human existence even if we stopped releasing carbon today.

                      In the short term, we can adapt or have a population crash sooner rather than later.
                      In the longer term, with ocean acidification and even stagnation, we might need a lifeboat.

                      Or should humanity collectively adopt the Birkenhead Drill, and stand to attention as the ship sinks us out of existence?

                    • weka []

                      No idea what the Birkenhead Drill is nor how you got to that ridiculous idea from reading my comments.

                      You’re still missing my point.

                    • McFlock []

                      If you mean along the lines of your comment “There is something very very wrong with the fact that we aren’t doing cradle to grave footprinting how as a matter of course and using everything we have to mitigate the worst of CC”, your assumption is based entirely on the fact that you or I couldn’t find it for the falcon9 or the satellite using a quick google. Hence my OIA line. Frankly, I’m not hugely worried about it either way, for the reasons below.

                      Mitigation of CC: carbon sequestration is not hugely likely. Albedo modification by releasing sulphides into the atmosphere would accelerate ocean acidification. misting on large enough scale would be quite energy intensive, and still not address acidification (which I believe to be far higher consequence than weather effects). I’m not calling us dead in the next few centuries just yet, but might be an idea to think about diversifying our habitat portfolio on the off chance.

                      The Birkenhead Drill is where everyone stands to attention until the ship sinks. As opposed to unethically readying a lifeboat (although in that case it was because the lifeboats were full, so a bit more of an ethical argument there). If you didn’t know what it was, what basis did you have for thinking it was ridiculous?

                    • weka []

                      Ridiculous based on the second half of the sentence. Still don’t know how it’s relevant to what I’ve been saying.

                      Pretty sure you’re still missing the point.

                    • McFlock []

                      which sentence?

                    • weka []

                      “Or should humanity collectively adopt the Birkenhead Drill, and stand to attention as the ship sinks us out of existence?”

                    • McFlock []

                      The Birkenhead drill bit was because of this little exchange:

                      “preservation of the species isn’t ethically defensible?”

                      Not if it means leaving millions of people to die, not to mention the rest of life.

                      By that logic, if there aren’t enough lifeboats, everyone should drown. In the event we’ve irreversibly screwed the planet so much we need to bail.

                    • weka []

                      I’m not arguing we’re irreversibly screwed. I’m arguing that we have the opportunity to not need a lifeboat and we’re wasting it, actively trashing it.

                      i.e. the act of looking for a lifeboat helps create the crisis that makes a lifeboat appear necessary. Yes, that’s unethical.

                      It’s your beliefs that took you to the Birkenhead Drill, not mine 🙂

                    • McFlock []

                      Apart from the fact that satellite data has been and will be (including this probe) an important part of establishing the existence, extent, and nature of the threat that we currently face. And the crisis of AGW would still exist without a space program.

                      The ship is currently sinking. Sure, we might be able to stop the flooding, or it might settle on a shallow bottom, but it’s still prudent to ready a lifeboat or two.

                    • weka []

                      Not if making the lifeboat stops us from doing the mitigation or actively promotes AGW (both of which seem likely). Which brings us back to my point. If something like NASA can’t do cradle to grave analyses, it has no business running a space a program.

                      btw, you do realise I’m not saying that this satellite shouldn’t be launched, right?

                    • McFlock []

                      I do realise that.

                      I also realise that your point “If something like NASA can’t do cradle to grave analyses, it has no business running a space a program” assumes that any analyses like that were not done. For which we have precisely no evidence either way. But then I have no evidence of Space X’s certification to store large quanitites of hazardous materials like lox and kerosene by the tonne, and paperwork for that is required sure as shuttles.

                      I fail to see what justification you have for believing that the space program “stops us from doing the mitigation or actively promotes AGW”. The latter is probably negligible in the greater scheme of things, while the former seems to be a rather odd proposition. Especially as satellites are actively used to mitigate things like deforestation.

      • Colonial Rawshark 11.1.3

        Man, that’s just too good!

        (reply to McFlock’s comment on fiddling and luting…)

  12. Northsider 12

    “In France, an HSBC manager, Nessim el-Maleh, was able to run a cash pipeline in which plastic bags full of currency from the sale of marijuana to immigrants in the Paris suburbs were collected. The cash was then taken round to HSBC’s respectable clients in the French capital. Bank accounts back in Switzerland were manipulated to reimburse the drug dealers.”

    This is but one example of the behaviour off HSBC in Europe.

    Stephen Green was CEO and Chairman of HSBC when all of this was happening. David Cameron then made him Minister of State for Trade and Investment from 2011 to 2013.
    John Key attended an APEC CEO Summit in 2009 at which Green was a speaker. In 2013 they met up at Asia House in London for a networking session.,-London.html

    Are equivalent banking practices going on here?

    • Draco T Bastard 12.1

      Are equivalent banking practices going on here?

      More than likely and I believe there’s been something about money laundering through gambling houses as well.

    • Colonial Rawshark 12.2

      Fucking HSBC again eh.

      HSBC cops “record” 5 week fine for laundering billions in Mexican drug cartel cash

      Dec 2012

    • nadis 12.3

      Yes, but prob not via the banks. Lawyers trust funds are currently exempt from the new anti-money laundering regs. Go figure.

      NZ is one of the most sympathetic jurisdictions for trans national money laundering. Trusts domiciled in NZ but with the the settlors and beneficiaries offshore are not taxed or regulated in any serious way, shape or form. The large law firms around town make an absolute killing by facilitating the flow of offshore money through NZ trusts and into new homes.

      Here’s an example of how it works. Company incorporated in Malta, and ultimately owned by a trust in NZ buys a bankrupt tourist resort in Croatia or Greece – cash business right. The resort produces accounts and everything, pays staff, suppliers etc but it’s all bogus. Cash is banked in to the system, washed through the NZ trust – not taxes – and then disbursed to trust beneficiaries as fully legit NZ sourced income. Fully laundered. Source of money hidden forever by the NZ trust.

  13. Clemgeopin 13

    Peter Dunne
    has made a press release, which I suspect is a spin or half truth, in which he says, “National Library’s Service to Schools programme, which will see more students and more schools receiving an increased number of books from the National Library”

    “These include increasing the number of hard-copy fiction and non-fiction books sent to schools to support reading for pleasure and providing up-to-date information digitally to support curriculum topics.

    “It has to be remembered that in New Zealand students are encouraged to explore the whole world of knowledge, which means the National Library receives requests to support a wide variety of differing curriculum topics.”

    Then he says,

    “The current changes will ensure the National Library will continue to support these requests by providing the information digitally, rather than in hard copy, so that it is up-to-date and in formats the current generation of New Zealand students need”

    “It will also make it easier to share the same material to other schools and teachers. This is especially true when the information sought is highly popular or not even published in a book”, says Mr Dunne.

    Here is a few question he needs to answer:

    * Question is has Dunne simply put a spin on this issue, has told the real complete truth or not?

    * Will there be a decrease in funding to the libraries in real terms?

    * If for example, a student requests a book, say, ‘The Luminaries’ by Eleanor Catton which won the 2013 Man Booker Prize’, will that student get a hard copy of the book as before or will that be sent as a digital file copy? or not sent at all due to cut in funding?

    Those are the question that Dunne needs to answer.

    *If a student asks for the constitution of USA, sure, send it through a digital file, no problem.

    * What is the REAL truth behind his press release? Spin or fact?

    • freedom 13.1

      The most worrisome shift in this new policy is how the National Library will decide what materials they will send to the schools, instead of the current process where Schools ask for particular publications.
      “Though schools will no longer be able to order books on specific topics, the Library will instead send them a mix of fiction and non-fiction selected by its librarians”

      • weka 13.1.1

        That is a worry 🙁

        I wouldn’t trust anything Dunne says, and hope someone does some more digging.

    • Clemgeopin 13.2

      Another important question:

      * What were the National Library budget amounts for each of the last 6 years from 2009 to 2014 and what are the proposed/allocated budget amounts for the next three years, 2015, 2016 and 2017?

      • freedom 13.2.1

        A complex question after the National Library’s integration with the Department of Internal Affairs in February 2011.

        • Rodel

          With the National Library’s integration with the Department of Internal Affairs and the decision to send books selected by them rather than respond to teachers requests ‘they’ ( read- government officials), not the teachers, children, or parents will now decide what books the children should read. Sound historically familiar?

          I’d be pissed off if my local library just sent me a selection of books that they thought I needed to read and wouldn’t allow me to choose them myself.

          • freedom

            That exact thought has not left my mind since I first heard of the new policy.
            Librarians are meant to be ambassadors of knowledge, not gaolers.

            • Draco T Bastard

              Under National, you’re only allowed the knowledge that National determines that you’re in need of. This is to prevent their leader from being embarrassed when they make stupid, ignorant comments such as that NZ was peacefully settled.

      • Molly 13.2.2

        Home educators are also losing access to the National Library.

        As students are exempt from attendance, the exemption stops us from accessing any resources from the MoE, including out of classroom activities provided by external institutions (eg. museum, zoo, conservation venues etc).

        We could however, apply to be a member of the National library and access the resources there. A couple of months ago, it was communicated on the networks that policy had been changed. I should have realised this was an indicator that other policy changes would follow.

        That seems to be the case fairly often.

    • greywarshark 13.3

      I once found a hard copy (book) in a school library of the story of the USA citizen In Chile who had met some USA operatives there and knew something was going on about the post-election Allende government. He knew so much but they could not imperil the putsch and couldn’t warn him of the imminent crackdown. He was taken with other people, students, to the sports field and was massacred with the rest by the forces of Chilean progress-RW style.

      Books with that sort of information won’t last long on government-funded ethereal on-line dissemination. The seminal works on those sort of subjects will become sterile I would think.

      • Chooky 13.3.1

        +100 greywarshark…the service must be reinstated with a change from Nact government…for the sake of democracy and true freedom of information and education

    • Incognito 13.4

      I fear that this issue is being crowded out by other bigger issues and ones that generate better headlines. On 22 Jan the members of the School Library Association of New Zealand Aotearoa National Executive wrote a clear and considered letter to the National Library about the proposed changes So far, it has attracted zero comments.

      They also posted an update on 4 Feb So, watch that space; I certainly will.

  14. the past, the future…

    Five Ngati Waewae women warriors do the wero (maori challenge) for the first time in South Island history at the opening of Tuhuru, the tribes ancestral house, in November.

  15. Once was Tim 15

    Just watching Skoi News ….. and a taliking head Mr Briggs being interviewed by the sage David Spiers ……

    It struck me (not in any sort of killing fields sort of way)……
    How are YOUR fundamentals people?, OR you person? and you person? and you person? and and you … you ….. you….. you person?

    Txt your answers to 2101 and ‘regular goi Jum’ on “The Panel”.
    (they care wot u think! – yea-nah, they really do!…. It’s in the spin)

  16. Chooky 16

    ‘US invasion of Iraq helped create ISIS – former UN chief’

    “Kofi Annan, the former UN secretary general, said the US-led invasion of Iraq was a mistake and helped to create the Islamist State militant group. He also blamed regional powers for making the conflict worse….”

    (Thank goodness Helen Clark had the courage to provide the moral leadership for New Zealand that we all wanted and NOT be party to the USA- led invasion of Iraq…imo she should be new UN General Secretary…about time they had a woman for WORLD PEACE!…I am sick of all these bloody men fighting and creating Mayhem….who do they think they are?…God’s given chosen?)

    • Ad 16.1

      Not too hard to run a counterfactual of a world in which the US and coalition reacted differently to 9-11. Such waste as we’ve never seen.

  17. Ad 17

    Great to see good journalists working together to expose this:

    Sometimes you get to see that all the conspiracy theories about the rich and how they stay that way are actually true.

    Possibly worth a post in itself.

    • Chooky 17.1

      yes it would be worth a Post….white collar financial crime of the highest order….one rule for the bankers and their wealthy clients and another rule for the rest of the world

  18. “..From Beyoncé to the Baftas – vegan culture gets star status..

    ..Is this the week that veganism finally came of age?

    At the Baftas – stars will have the choice of opting for a special vegan menu that includes quinoa salad and roasted butternut squash..”


    • Te Reo Putake 18.1

      Hey Phil, sorry to interrupt, but I think I’ve just found a linguistic definition of why your writing style is so hard to comprehend. It’s a quote from an ad, followed by a brief analysis by a linguist.

      Remember playing football against a brick wall …

      It is not clear whether the reader is being told to remember (imperative reading) or asked whether he remembers (interrogative form). This ambiguity between two common advertising devices serves to reinforce the direct address, though perhaps to make the reader think harder about the message as well.

      Delin, J (2000)

      Your excessive use of ellipsis, Phil, adds ambiguity and hides the message. The reader is forced to work harder to decipher the message, but the ambiguity means the message cannot ever be fully understood. Great in advertising, where subliminal coding is king, but not so hot in a form of discourse such as a blog like TS where exchanges of ideas are the norm.

      However, on Whoar, where the communication is one directional, it doesn’t really matter what you write or how you write it as the reader is not having a conversation with you. They either hit the link you are highlighting or they don’t.

      Morrissey will be thrilled to know I got a B on the transcript assignment. Exam on Wednesday, can’t wait!

      • phillip ure 18.1.1

        i write as people talk..

        ..that’s all i do..

        ..and that is quite different to writing to fit within punctuation etc ‘rules’..

        ..i think the latter impedes the creative-process..

        ..blocks the/any flow..

        (it may help with yr reading if you imagine you are listening to the words said in my

        • Te Reo Putake

          Yes, though I can recall you saying once that you write as you think, which may be more more accurate than you write ‘as people talk’, because people don’t actually talk like that. Thought often is jumbled, flitting from one idea to another, but when we speak it’s usually a flow of words to convey one concept at a time. We self repair and hesitate too when speaking, going back to ‘fix’ wrong words or umming and ahing while we think of the right words, but that is nothing compared to the hummingbird aspects of the thought process.

          However, your writing style does not flow as speech does, which is kinda the point I was trying to illustrate. The ‘rules’ exist to allow the flow. Because you write in such a peculiar fashion, you are not communicating using the same linguistic devices as other posters. Therefore there is a communication breakdown and your message is deluted, sidelined or lost. Again, this is not an issue on Whoar, where there is no two way conversation, but in a multi channel forum like TS, your chosen delivery mechanism becomes noise (interference) which overwhelms the content.

          Having said all that, I think it’s pretty clear you don’t much care whether your messages are understood, so it’s not really an issue for you. But it might make it clearer why so many readers find their eyes glazing over when they get to your comments.

          • phillip ure


            ..u don’t have to read it..

  ’s not compulsory..

            ..and no..i did not say ‘i write as i think’..

            ..stop making shit up..

      • weka 18.1.2

        Nice one TRP. I suspect that it will just go completely over phil’s head.

        • Te Reo Putake

          There may be a PHD in it, weka!

          The Shuffling Madness:

          The Cumulative Effects of Cannabis on Interpersonal Communication and Discursive Linguistic Style.

          • weka

            I tend to think it’s the personality, I don’t give a shit about other people thing that’s the biggest problem.

            • phillip ure

              a special psycho-babble-award will be fast-couriered to you…

              • Te Reo Putake

                A gold Urey? Suhweet. Without wanting to set you off, I guess what I’m suggesting is that you consider tailoring your comments to your audience. You do have interesting things to say from time to time, but alienating your potential readership seems an odd thing for a lefty to do. Generally I associate the left with inclusiveness, but your writing style can be seen as misanthropic.

                • “..your writing style can be seen as misanthropic..”

                  cd u detail how u came to that judgement..?

         u see my arguing for animals not to be eaten ‘misanthropic’..?

                  ..and surely arguing for the poorest/against a long way from misanthropic..

         is the greedy rightwing arsewipes who care nothing for other people/the planet..who are the misanthropes..


                  • McFlock


                    The fact you so obviously confuse style with content strongly implies there’s not much point drilling through the former to discern the latter.

                  • weka


                  • Te Reo Putake

                    I’ve detailed why your writing can be seen as misanthropic above. You choose an isolationist form of (non) communication which alienates the majority. It’s elitist tosh.

                    You are right that your attacks on meat eaters could be seen as supporting a case for misanthropy. You seem to hate the majority of kiwis with a passion 😉

                    Arguing in support of the poor in a way that strips meaning from your thoughts and alienates potential supporters could also be seen as misanthropic. ‘I know best and if the plebs can’t decipher my wisdom, fuck ’em.’ That sort of thing.

                    Totally agree about the greedy righties you cite. But it’s not an exclusive club, of course.

                    So, how about it? Is it worth experimenting to see if a toned down version of Phil Whoar! works? I’d rather talk with Phil Ure. I bet I’m not alone.

                    • i have been writing this way for yrs..

             is not a conceit..

             is just what i do..

                      ..and if i feel i need some advice about that writing..

                      ..i might get back to you..

                      ..and yr qualifications for proffering such advice are..?


                      “..You seem to hate the majority of kiwis with a passion”

                      ..and you seem to be full of shit..arguing for animal-rights means i ‘hate the majority of kiwis with a passion”..?

                      ..which orifice did you pluck that from..?..

                      ..(and i hope you washed yr hands afterwards..)

                      (i hope that wasn’t too misanthropic for you..

             delicate wee flower you..)

                    • Te Reo Putake

                      Did I not mention the B I got on that assignment? I is expert on wordz.

                    • ..the wall of ellipses and stream of consciousness style is rather annoying..

                      ..but they allow time for a toke in between sentences..

                      ..whoar! eh?..

                    • tricledrown

                      TRP you are not alone their are aliens (al1ens) out there who would agree.
                      Phil’s communication style is used by most people under 35.
                      texting laguage.
                      Languages never languish they keep evolving.

                    • Te Reo Putake

                      Tricledrown, you are correct that language evolves, but the rules for communication don’t. Language is part of communication and is essentially subservient to it.

                      txt language (and car licence plates) are quite different to what we see with Phil. txts still communicate the meaning, but distill each unit to the essence. txt words can stripped of vowels, but not of meaning. txts still follow the usual rules of communication in that they are easily deciphered and follow a recognisable grammatical sequence.

                      As McFlock notes above, style and content are different things. Phil has content, but his chosen writing style renders communication difficult because it is entirely focussed on the sender, not the receiver. It is the very opposite of txt speak, which is communication rendered in the smallest possible units but intended to be understood by the receiver because both sender and receiver have the language and the rules in common. In order to ‘read’ Phil, you have to conform to Phil’s communication rules. It’s one sided, not inclusive as txt speak is.

                    • weka

                      +1 TRP

                      As an aside, I think smart phones are going to change txting again. It’s easier to write in full text on my phone than it is to txt. My phone has learnt a few shortcuts I use often, but unless I make an effort to teach the ph, txting abbreviations are going to be much more limited than before. This seems to be true for people who txt me, including people under 25 (no teenagers at present though, and I’m guessing people without smart phones will still be using abbreviated txts).

                    • Te Reo Putake

                      I think you dead right, weka. I have a hunch that not only will predictive text promote full words and sentences, the increased use of voice recognition technology will do the same. But it may be swimming against the tide.

                      I think there are real implications for our society too. We are heading toward a two tier society; one tier comfortable with formal, informal and academic language, the other only able to ‘read’ txtspeak. We will then be back where we were in the middle ages where only the educated had the keys to the kingdom of communication and their control of knowledge left the majority powerless. Legal documents, for example employment contracts, will become even more impenetrable for working class people. Rights are pointless if you don’t know you have them.

                    • (too?) much ado about

                    • weka

                      Two tiers. I also see it happening with things like FB, where people who use FB a lot believe that they can reach everyone by putting something on FB, or if they don’t, it’s the fault of the people who aren’t using FB a lot. So you have information being passed around more and more via FB that is by its nature restricted to a specific subset and the subset think they are the whole. I see this with community based initiatives, and with knowledge sharing communities that were previously much more inclusive by default.

                      I think about the spelling argument a lot too (the idea that spelling is less important now). If you can’t spell how can you search a document for something? Or a website? Or even use google effectively. I know google are accommodating that, but google is less usable and efficient than it used to be.

                      So people are more reliant on the information that is presented to them, that appears before them, rather than what they are actually wanting or seeking or needing. The passification of knowledge. It doesn’t matter if you can’t spell or won’t take the time to correct, because we know what you need and we will deliver it to you. Then I look at the people running organisations like FB or google and I’m horrified.

  19. the panel on nat-rad has sunk to a new nadir..

    ..that rightwing beer-pimp/pusher neil millar..some unthinking rightwing female..

    ..and that prick from the police union..

    ..lying his fucken head off to try to get all police armed all the time..

    ..(just like america..)

    ..of course millar and the rightwing female are all for arming all the police..all the time..

    (to give mora credit where it is due..he did note that the txts/emails coming in were in the main opposed to arming the cops..all the time..

    ..and that doing that wd change the cops into faceless-individuals..with guns..)

    • the facts of the matter that makes that spin/chicken little-impersonation from/by o’connor so clearly a pile of steaming-bullshit..

      ..are that new zealand is echoing the sharp drop internationally in crime..

      (..and imagine how that crime-rate would drop were there sensible/sane policies around drugs..)

      ..someone needs to tell that o’connor..and those two rightwing panelists..

      ..those facts..

    • greywarshark 19.2

      @ phillip ure
      Neil Miller was NZ Beer writer of the year in 2014. ‘I write about other things too politics, business.’ Snap, so do I. Soulmates eh!

      The woman on The Panel was Catherine Robertson. She is an author, ‘writer of best-selling chick-lit novels’. Hailed as ‘a new national treasure’, Catherine was a featured author at the 2012 Frankfurt Book Fair. Two of her books have been published in Germany and her first has also been published in Italy.
      Her ‘real job’ is owning and running a marketing consultancy with her husband.

      One of her novels is –
      The Sweet Second Life of Darrell Kincaid. ‘No one knows ‘happy endings’ like romance novelist Darrell Kincaid’ – a woman writer. (One of those mirror images a woman writer writing about a woman writer. ‘Darrell knows she has a choice. She can stay in New Zealand and live a half-life, or she can leave in search of something – perhaps someone – else.)

      So maybe she is not quite in touch with the everyday problems of the common people.

      • phillip ure 19.2.1

        “..So maybe she is not quite in touch with the everyday problems of the common people…”

        she did mention how much she enjoyed her sessions with her personal-trainer..

        ..and when asked what was ‘on her mind’..

        ..she banged on about baking..

        ..she actually did a very good impersonation of someone who knows s.f.a..

        (that she is a light-romance writer comes as no surprise..)

        ..and miller has the body-dystopia of one who consumes far too much of his product..

        ..accompanied by far too much ‘bad’-food..

        ..he really isn’t an advertisement for benefits to be gained from consuming his ‘product’…

        • greywarshark

          I heard the Panels’s promotion on Radionz the other day something like Jim Mora and the nation’s leading opinion makers and commentators. Puff piece, what!

      • Rosie 19.2.2

        Ugh! Is that awful chick lit term still being used? Why don’t they just say books for little fluffy lady brains.

    • Chooky 19.3

      the other day Mora had on two lawyers talking about the best way to kill Pukekos…it made me feel sick…I was a captured audience driving my car …..I was waiting for Morriessey to do an evisceration of that particular show here …but “No” he was too busy defending himself against the eviscerators here l

      Come back Morriessey !…some of us love you truly

      ….and btw …where is Karol?…..i miss her sensible approach to things and thoughtful Posts…we love you too!

  20. Chooky 21

    This is funny…especially the bit about wrapping up the left overs and having them served up for the next meal–e1LX8ldCjx

  21. Rodel 22

    Matthew Hooton’s latest attempt at pinning a derisory label- referring to a rival of Tony Abbot….’ of course he’s also a climate change alarmist’.
    ‘Climate change alarmist’..not bad for a climate change nescient.

    • Te Reo Putake 22.1

      Yeah, heard that. Matthew’s delivery of the line was off; he sounded like a four year old trying out a swear word to see how the adults react.

  22. millsy 23

    A few weeks ago, I decided to lodge an OIA request with MSD/WINZ to see how many of their ‘clients’ pay more than two thirds (66%) of their income in rent. Which is a standard measure of poverty.

    The other day I got a response, bascially telling me that that this sort of information ‘was not in the Ministry’s reporting’, and that getting that information would involve going through thousands of files (never mind that a simple database query that first year IT students would understand would do the trick).

    To be honest, I think MSD deliberately hide that information because it would show how many people live in poverty in this country.

    I have another pending query, about how many ‘clients’ have an address of ‘no fixed abode’. Will keep everyone updated…

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