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Open mike 10/10/2020

Written By: - Date published: 6:00 am, October 10th, 2020 - 51 comments
Categories: open mike - Tags:

Open mike is your post.

For announcements, general discussion, whatever you choose.

The usual rules of good behaviour apply (see the Policy).

Step up to the mike …

51 comments on “Open mike 10/10/2020 ”

  1. Dennis Frank 1

    Labour's campaign strategy, according to Danyl McLaughlin:

    Labour will commit to inconsequential climate goals, and continue to frame themselves with rhetorically progressive but deliberately meaningless messaging like “putting people at the heart of everything they do”.

    Ardern has learned from her first term in government that if she promises anything substantive her caucus and the public service will fail to deliver it, so best to promise nothing. https://thespinoff.co.nz/politics/10-10-2020/labour-has-taken-the-centre-is-it-a-trap/

    Labour’s winning strategy is built on rhetoric that seems to promise real change but never quite delivers… Perhaps soon it can give itself permission to do something truly transformational.

    But Danyl fails to come up with anything after his wondering & diagnosis. The Greens, trying to present as in leftist harmony, likewise felt obliged to not promise any specific transformation. If they find themselves in coalition, one would hope that the preceding negotiations do produce mutual commitments to transformation of Aotearoa – spelt out in specific policy declarations of intent!

    They'd still be devoid of a mandate for that transformation, but voters would appreciate the honesty up front. A Labour/Green govt launched on a transformative consensus basis would be auspicious and likely to succeed.

    • mikesh 1.1

      Julie-Anne Genter also confirmed to a small business panel late in September that a Wealth Tax is a “bottom line” for the Green Party in any post-election negotiations with Labour.

      My wife,who is a registered National Party supporter, received an email, from Judith Collins, which contained the above excerpt. Is it true, and would it make any difference anyway.

      • weka 1.1.1

        Genter didn't quite say that, but did make a mistake around the GP position on bottom lines. They don't have any bottom lines, but they do have high priorities and addressing income disparity is one of them (by progressive tax reform).

        Collins is telling porkies.

        • Bearded Git

          Weka-the Wealth Tax addresses poverty/wealth distribution/capital disparity rather than income disparity.

          • mikesh

            Since most taxpayers under the gun with regard to wealth taxes are unlikely to sell off assets in order to meet their tax obligations, the tax would, in effect, amount to an income tax. This is different from a capital gains tax, which would be paid from the proceeds of the sale.

            Those who would count as "asset rich, cash poor" might be an exception.

          • weka

            hmm, well it directly addresses income disparity because it would fund a GMI.

            Pretty sure that 'income disparity' is the term being used by the Greens in their campaigning currently.

      • KJT 1.1.2


    • ianmac 1.2

      Had Labour said at the last election that Labour would embark on just an ambitious house building program, then the criticism around the Kiwibuild would not have happened.

      • Dennis Frank 1.2.1

        If Twyford had been competent, he'd have delivered on his promises, and the criticism "would not have happened."

        Danyl believes "Ardern has learned from her first term in government that if she promises anything substantive her caucus and the public service will fail to deliver it".

        Is this true?? She seems intelligent enough to have learnt that from her experience as PM. Can't assume she has though. The public service during that term did achieve a 50% pass rate, eh? Labour usually comes in around that, so we can assume there's a reasonable basis that she would think reliance on bureaucrats is a 50-50 call, and she's comfortable with that.

        Applying that logic to her caucus produces the same result, of course. So she's on a random walk. I'd prefer a destination…

        • greywarshark

          I have a;ways been surprised that individual Ministers can make extravagant statements that are unlikely to result in anything of value to the country and the Party feel satisfied with this dopey system that has been adopted. If there is a caucus, if the Ministers in and out of Cabinet meet and discuss and examine and hear presentations from the Public Service and other approved advisors, how can something like Phil Twyford's bloated figures and hopes get into official Labour pronouncements.

          It seemed obvious that the number of houses could never be completed, and Twyford's (which are also Labour's) pronouncements have taken government and democracy into the realms of a puppet show – our very own Punch and Judy.

          Please Labour stop announcing definite numbers of anything, and replace numbers with a promise to make important and far-reaching changes for the better, and then proceed to do that in a way that is prompt, practical and beneficial to those needing good policy outcomes.

          Also monitor whether the Public Service are carrying out these policies in a positive manner and give them the opportunity to make suggestions for improvement so they have a voice. Explain the approach is all important to achieving success in solving problems and that government services or their contractors are crucial to that.

        • Herodotus

          If Twyford and Labour had been honest they would not have increased a extremely difficult Kiwibuild of 50,000 as per 2012 to an impossible 100,000.and if they knew that it was unobtainable then it was a .. LIE 🤫

          and instead of selling off state assets in the guise of Kiwibuild they could have used any land to increase state housing stock. But no let’s build for those poor who can afford a $650k home. Why can many tribal people see the lies the other side tells yet are unable to when their side tells porkies 🤔

        • Patricia Bremner

          There are more erudite people in the world who rate our PM.

          "So she's on a random walk".. Lol you really revealed yourself there Dennis.

      • mikesh 1.2.2

        I could be wrong, but I don't think David Shearer's original "kiwibuild" policy included the building of state houses. His suggestion was that houses should be built, sold, and the proceeds used to build more houses. The current version of "kiwibuild" seems to be to build lots of state houses, but not necessarily 10,000 per year.

        • greywarshark

          I referred to Twyford, and he must take responsibility for his pronouncements along with the whole of the Labour leading group.

          Here is an example of Labour doing good, saying they want to do better, and that they will keep working on it. Which is the best way to present particulars within the 'transformational' project. PM Ardern listened to people who had been drug users at a meeting in Moerewa in Northland and announced a new program to combat meth addiction.


          Auckland man Lawrence Turner told Ardern how Waipuna Ora was helping him to help others after his stint in jail.
          "You're doing a good job too," Turner told the Labour leader, to the audience's laughter.
          "I seen you when I was stuck in jail, just watching you, [thinking] 'f**k, she's doing all right!'"

          Earlier in the day, Ardern announced Labour would roll out a meth addiction programme to another 4000 people, if re-elected, at a cost of $38 million over four years.
          The Te Ara Oranga programme – piloted under the previous National-led government – has been operating in Northland and seen promising results.

          National has also committed to rolling out an intensive meth treatment programme in 11 locations, as well as putting a meth-detox bed in every DHB.

          Speaking at Moerewa Christian Fellowship Church, Ardern told those gathered she felt the "weight of expectation" on her shoulders to revolutionise the justice system.
          "You are right to put it there. We should all feel it and we do," Ardern said.
          "What we're asking for is more time."

          The people will likely approve of even small, incremental changes which can be expanded after successful pilots. And that is the final test, not just setting up small pockets having good results and waving them like banners for good vibes to the public, but then budgeting for repeats carried out in ways that workers on the ground are satisfied with, and they will produce results or lose their funding.

          And then if the results are achieved, the systems will be locked in, not just chopped and dropped some years later. We will always need certain interventions, and we need to look after the young particularly, from helping parents do a good job, have good standards and pride, to giving them a place in the working society doing something that will receive a salary suitable for living.

      • woodart 1.2.3

        yes, putting numbers up immediatley gives naysayers a target. however few houses they actually built are a lot more than the "no housing crisis nats" built. like ten bridges, its a silly promise.

    • AB 1.3

      "Ardern has learned from her first term in government that if she promises anything substantive her caucus and the public service will fail to deliver it"

      Hmm – haven't her inner circle and the public service just delivered one of the best Covid-responses globally – in quite an agile manner and on the hoof as well? McLaughlin is essentially pitching this as a competence thing – when it clearly isn't. And in fact it's a lame regurgitation of Nat framing.

      Rather, failure to deliver will occur in those areas where band-aids and ambulances at the bottoms of cliffs can't have much effect – but the structural/economic issues that cause the problems to occur are so massive and so entrenched, that they can't be addressed without business and the media screaming the house down.

      And more than just business and the media – solving these problems will also cut across the economic interests of a chunk of the affluent PMC who make up Labour's most articulate and influential support, as well as their MPs. If you removed the possibility of financial insecurity for every single citizen – downstream social problems would melt away to vanishingly low levels. But it is an inconceivably radical thing for Labour to try. I have great regard for Ardern – she is doing what she can in the environment she's been given. It’s nothing to do with competence, it’s about what is ideologically permissible.

    • ianmac 1.4

      It has been reported that when Labour was sorting the Kiwibuild policy, the goal was to be 50,000 houses but the outgoing Annette King said 100,000 sounded much better and hence the impossible figure was set.

      Should have been "as many houses shall be built as we can."

    • sumsuch 1.5

      My cousin in Czechia has said their govt has spent all their money on covid and has no reserves left to deal with climate change. My suspicion about this last period with Labour's prioritizing of 'the art of the possible' over longterm reason. Most importantly, their unwillingness to try and persuade. Seen also in Leftist columnists.

      It's a strange election campaign. This time is not for the innocuous ordinary.

  2. Dennis Frank 2

    Kim Hill is interviewing him at 10 on RNZ: https://www.robgreenfield.org/biography/

    Rob is the creator of The Food Waste Fiasco, a campaign that strives to end food waste and hunger in the U.S. He has dove into more than two thousand dumpsters across the United States to demonstrate how nearly half of all food in the U.S. is wasted while 50 million (1 in 7) Americans are food insecure.

    He had the goal of being a millionaire by age 30. His life took a great turn when at the age of 24 he started to become aware of the environmental and social issues of his generation. He learned through books and documentaries that he was contributing to many of these problems through his daily actions including the food he was eating, the car he was driving, and the stuff he was buying and consuming. At that point he began his transformation from a Drunk Dude to Dude Making a Difference.

    After five years of downsizing and simplifying his life he was down to just 111 possessions, all that fit into his backpack. He then traveled for two years in the service of others.

    In 2016 he landed in Rio, Brazil without a penny in his pocket. He was on a mission to travel to Panama, 7,000 miles and 7 countries away, while relying only on the goodness of humanity. This adventure is a six episode series called Free Ride on Discovery Channel playing worldwide. His travels have taken him to 6 continents and 45 countries.

    • RedLogix 2.1

      Yes. There is an entire way of life emerging of people no longer rooted to one location. They move for all sorts of reasons, work, adventure, seeking and escape. They're tiny house people, van lifers, sailors, surfies, backpackers, woofers and more. They have all manner of networks, often on the net, to facilitate finding places to stay and ways to earn a living. They're not tourists, they're making a new life as global citizens.

      In some ways they're incredibly resilient, in others extremely vulnerable. Some are aimless and indigent, but many do look for ways to give back to the communities around them. Often in quite imaginative ways. Rob is very much one of this tribe, I like him.

      One issue they do encounter is an effective lack of democratic representation, they're usually not able to vote in most of the places they live, and rarely would any political system take account of their concerns. Mostly they accept their outsider status and work within it's limits, but events like covid can expose them badly.

      Nomads like these are an enduring component of humanity, they serve an ancient purpose, cross-pollinating and spreading ideas and experiences across nations and cultures. They modern world both makes it easier in some ways and much harder in others for them, but I believe they should be embraced and celebrated on the whole.


      • Dennis Frank 2.1.1

        an entire way of life emerging of people no longer rooted to one location. They move for all sorts of reasons

        Global citizens. You make a good point. Whereas my consciousness emerged from adolescence into global view (1965) human nature is mostly parochial. I never shifted from global consciousness into global experience, so I admire those motivated to do so, and those few who pioneer it as a resilient lifestyle even more!

        There are no global citizenship rights, so these folk are a precariat. Must use nationality as a resource still. You've noticed that problem & describe it well too.

        In ancient times the stranger was a powerful social archetype. Cross-fertilising between cultures as you mention. Perhaps we're seeing that re-emerge, leading edge. Exemplars of resilience & sustainability. Language building a bridge wherever, if they incorporate it as praxis.

        There's a metaphysical basis for this: triadic structure & function. Mediating two cultures or realms makes the mediator the tertiary function. From one, holism, from two, dualism. Transcendence of dichotomies & polarities requires intervention by a third element/factor/agent. This is fundamental to neuroscience, society, nature.

        Some examples. Two brain hemispheres, joined by the bridge of the corpus callosum, through which they send messages to each other. Triadic structure of time (past/present/future), three dimensions of space (vertical & two horizontal). Reproduction (takes two, then a child).

        So trade emerged as a by-product of strangers travelling. That's why ancient Greeks & Romans empowered Hermes/Mercury. Not merely the messenger of the gods! Shamanic function was primal, but then economies evolved from the function of the archetype…

        • RedLogix

          Yes … that's a deep dive into it. Another work that perhaps touched on this triadic was a not very well known book Warrior, Settlers and Nomads written by UK psychologist Terrence Watts. I bought it decades ago, and exchanged emails with him for some time.

          Warriors, Settlers & Nomads (WSN) is a form of parts psychotherapy devised by UK therapist, Terence Watts. It is an astonishingly accurate look at the elements that create our personality traits and is based upon the concept of evolutionary psychology, and it is a method that many therapists and professionals use today. We all display attributes from each 'part', but are usually strongly inclined towards a single part, or sometimes a mix of two. The Warrior is forceful, resolute and organisational; the Settler is sociable, intuitive and adaptable; and the Nomad is restless, charismatic and innovative. There isn't a 'best' or a worst personality type and all have their positive and negative qualities.

          The close parallel with my proposed triadic political model, Conservatives, Socialists and Liberals is intriguing as well.

          So trade emerged as a by-product of strangers travelling.

          My partner likes to say that there really are just two fundamental story plots, an adventurous soul goes on a journey, or a stranger comes to town. devil

    • mikesh 2.2

      Many global warming commentaters (apart from denialists) point out that excess consumption in Western countries is a major driver of global warming. It would seem that third world countries can never catch up with us without throwing the world into global warming turmoil. This would seem to suggest a moral imperative on the part of our politicians to promise a winding down of our economy rather than to promise growth.

      • greywarshark 2.2.1

        We need to bear in mind the exposure off the reality of how government works as revealed in the outstanding Yes Minister et al.

        Sir Humphrey explains that government is not about morality, it is about stability. This is gold, and it explains much in its truth, it isn't just satirical.

        Government is not about morality, it is about stability; keeping things going, preventing anarchy, stopping society falling to bits. Still being here tomorrow.

        The Proper Function of Government:
        https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cIYfiRyPi3o&t=149s 5.30 mins

      • RedLogix 2.2.2

        It would seem that third world countries can never catch up with us without throwing the world into global warming turmoil.

        Are you going to tell the developing countries that they have to remain poor?

        This would seem to suggest a moral imperative on the part of our politicians to promise a winding down of our economy rather than to promise growth.

        Really? Because if the eco-fascists could have one of their dark fantasies fulfilled and the whole developed 1b of the world were to disappear overnight, the other 9b or so people remaining would quickly move to fill the gap.

        And the assumption that it's only the developed world that is damaging the planet is also dead wrong. Poorer developing nations have an impact of a different kind; usually direct deforestation, wildlife and habitat destruction, and over-fishing. China for instance instance is largely responsible for a devastating destruction of fish stocks everywhere their fleet can reach. And collectively the developing nations not only emit a lot of fossil carbon, they're also the group whose emissions are growing the fastest.

        The idea that shutting down the developed world is the solution to environmental change, and that humans will find some kind of stasis on a benign planet is belied by a simple brutal fact … that 99.9% of all species that have ever existed are extinct. The moment a species fails (or refuses in our case) to continue to adapt, it has written it's own extinction warrant.

        Humans are the first post-biological species to face the possibility of making conscious choices around it's own future. You have accurately identified the proximate challenge, that 10b humans cannot continue on the same development path that the first 1b humans took over 200 years to escape poverty. In response a very large fraction of the broader green movement shape the argument as a false binary, either BAU ensures a catastrophic environmental collapse, or unwind our technological development and await extinction by senescence.

        And in both scenarios we exhaust resources in any event, only the timelines differ slightly. Prior to industrialisation the carrying capacity of the planet was under 1b, and a reversion to a world absent mass production will almost certainly collapse the human population something of the same order. Of course morally this a deeply anti-human position, and I reject any plan that implicitly requires a mass die-off of humanity embedded in it's assumptions.

        In short you've identified the problem, but you need a better plan.

      • Draco T Bastard 2.2.3

        This would seem to suggest a moral imperative on the part of our politicians to promise a winding down of our economy rather than to promise growth.

        Yes but, as many have pointed out, who's going to vote for having less even if it does save their children and grandchildren?

  3. swordfish 3

    Preferred PM comparisons

    (TV1 Colmar Brunton Polls 1-2 weeks out from Election):


    Ardern 50 / Collins 23


    English 32 / Ardern 34


    Key 46 / Cunliffe 14


    Key 53 / Goff 13


    Clark 37 / Key 38


    Clark 42 / Brash 30


    Clark 48 / English 19


    Shipley 30 / Clark 24

  4. ianmac 4

    US President Donald Trump will appear on an American political talkshow – and undergo a live televised medical evaluation.

    Fox News has announced Trump will give his first on-camera interview since testing positive for Covid-19. He is scheduled to appear on Tucker Carlson Tonight at 1pm NZ time today.

    That could be a make it or break it for Trump.

    • Gabby 4.1

      Is Tuckwit performing the medical evaluation, or are they bringing in Dr Oz?

    • Dennis Frank 4.2

      "Say ah."

      "Wrong guy! That's Biden."

    • Peter 4.3

      It's going to be a full thorough medical check too!smiley

      The doctor will be right onto it with a fully professional examination and report! smiley

      Any fully professional doctor worth their salt would jump at the chance to do it and rubbish any comments about them prostituting themselves.Speaking of the doctor. What if it were a woman, a black woman who conducted and determined the examination without 'advice' from 'outsiders?' If after giving a full and thorough examination she presented a report which was less than favourable and bluntly expressed concern what would the reaction be?

      "What a nasty person you are, you're a disgrace to your profession, you should be ashamed of yourself. Fake news!"

      The report has likely been written already. We could have some Saturday sport writing our own to see how close we can get. In my draft I've already crossed out the 'heart of an 18 year' that Donald wanted and gone for '40 year old.'


      (The doctor could take along a specialist colleague to check out Carlson at the same time. A proctologist would be most appropriate.)

      • ianmac 4.3.1

        Said to be Marc Siegel who is the Doctor feeding false information re Covid19 and keeping Trump informed.

        • Peter

          I'm shocked! What a surprise! The report will be fair and accurate and professional and objective and …….. well paid for!surprise

  5. joe90 5

    An admission that he's under observation?

  6. weka 6

    World Rugby have just changed their policy on gender and sex regarding participation in sport. They're now saying that the scientific evidence strongly supports that participation should be based on biological sex, not gender identity accompanied by lowering testosterone. This is for safety and fairness reasons. Lowering testosterone appears to give limited or no changes to the physiological advantages that males have over females across a range of aspects.

    The visuals in the second tweet give a good overview.

  7. joe90 7

    I guess Hillary's going to lose.

    • Andre 7.1

      Her e-mails are so appalling I'm so relieved I didn't vote for her this time around. I wouldn't be able to live with myself if I had.

  8. Patricia Bremner 8

    Hey Barfly, voted yes today Cheers.

  9. joe90 9

    It really was a super event.

  10. joe90 10

    Nice uniforms.

    A private security company is recruiting former U.S. military Special Operations personnel to guard polling sites in Minnesota on Election Day, an effort the chairman of the company said is intended to prevent left-wing activists from disrupting the election but that the state attorney general warned would amount to voter intimidation and violate the law.

    The recruiting effort is being done by Atlas Aegis, a private security company based in Tennessee that was formed last year and is run by U.S. military veterans, including people with Special Operations experience, according to its website.


    In an interview earlier this week, Caudle, the chairman and co-founder of Atlas Aegis, said the client is a “consortium of business owners and concerned citizens” in Minnesota, but he declined to name the group. That consortium hired another unnamed firm licensed in Minnesota as the prime contractor, and Caudle’s company is responsible for staffing the security guards, he said. He declined to say where in Minnesota the guards would operate or how many intend to be out on Election Day.

    https://archive.li/Y3GZk (wapo)

  11. joe90 11

    The best it's Ok when Trump does it to date?

    When Insider asked three antiabortion organizations — the Heritage Foundation, Texas Alliance for Life, and Pro-Life Action League — about the origin of Trump's COVID-19 treatment, they demurred.

    In the past, antiabortion advocates have spoken out against medical treatments that use components derived from aborted fetal tissue at any point in the creation and testing processes, including experimental coronavirus vaccines.

    However, each group told Insider they would not engage in this controversy — some because they said they believed the cells used in testing bore little connection to the 1972 abortion and others because the antibody cocktail itself didn't contain traces of fetal tissue.

    One organization's executive director told Insider they had no criticism of Trump and supported him because he opposes abortion and has vowed to overturn Roe v. Wade, which would remove Americans' automatic right to abortion.


  12. greywarshark 12

    We have to move on to the next stages of coping with Covid-19, these people need to be given consideration and wise policies that enable them to live in reasonable conditions during this pandemic. And so many people have become new refugees and need a world-wide effort to assist them to reach home where they have a place to live while they face the effects of the disease.

    Crews on ships coming into New Zealand ports are not allowed ashore and must wear PPE gear every time they are on deck.
    This also applies to New Zealand crew.

    Wayne Turner is the master of Capitaine Tasman, a container ship that sails between Mount Maunganui, Auckland, Noumea, Suva and Lautoka – making a 17-day round trip.

    New Zealand, Noumea and Fiji are all countries without community transmission of the virus.
    Turner said effectively the crew were in constant isolation.
    "You've got people that are basically in prison. They can't depart the vessel, they can't go for a walk, get fresh air, they can't get off the vessel.



    Geneva - Effective international cooperation is urgently needed to address the circumstances of millions of migrants stranded worldwide due to mobility restrictions imposed to contain the spread of COVID-19, the International Organization for Migration said today.

    A three-month-long COVID-19 Impact on Migrants effort by IOM's Returns Task Force reveals for the first time the scope and complexities of the challenges facing governments and people on the move at a time when at least 2.75 million* migrants are stranded (13 July) worldwide.

  13. greywarshark 13

    This was a good interview on Covid 19 this morning by Kim. This super-spreader affect and the 'going underground' is important to be aware of. Also the 'going underground' which keeping up the sampling-swabbing can control, and the sewerage detection is a valuable method.


    In July, Victoria's Covid-19 cases rose dramatically and remained stubbornly high. By early August, a stage four lockdown was imposed across Melbourne, while the rest of Victoria moved to stage three.

    Rather than an individual "superspreader" being the cause of the outbreak, Swan said it was more of a case of "superspreading social networks" that led to the situation getting out of control. "You had people going out into the north-west corridor of Melbourne and into large family groups," he said. "Friendly, cohesive families where people were working all over Melbourne, living in relatively overcrowded circumstances, they're working in abattoirs and so on, and they go out and spread it."

    He said the outbreak in Victoria and another recent outbreak in Sydney showed the virus had the potential to "go underground".

    "In Washington state at the beginning of it, it went underground for about six weeks, spreading in probably asymptomatic populations," he said. "When testing rates go down you lose control of the virus."

    The outbreak in Sydney was discovered when virus particles were found during testing of the sewage system. Using the positive samples, officials were able to trace the virus to communities in south-west Sydney, where it was discovered that cases of the Covid-19 had been missed.

  14. sumsuch 15

    Lets get our freedom from a strong govt for the people. Anything else is illusion meaning rich-rule.

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