Open mike 10/06/2013

Written By: - Date published: 6:00 am, June 10th, 2013 - 349 comments
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Open mike is your post. For announcements, general discussion, whatever you choose.

The usual rules of good behaviour apply (see the link to Policy in the banner).

Step right up to the mike…

349 comments on “Open mike 10/06/2013”

  1. Jenny 1

    Shearer wrong foots it again.

    Labour leader David Shearer immediately called on police to seize Mr Dunne’s emails and put him under oath to swear his innocence.

    That moral high ground should last about as long as it takes to extend the logic to Labour MP Phil Goff, who was leaked sensitive Cabinet documents relating to Foreign Affairs. Labour would scream constitutional outrage if his emails were seized and he was made to name the leaker.

    Like journalists, MPs don’t reveal their sources. But if leaking was criminal, half the National Government and its Labour predecessor would be locked up. Helen Clark once famously declared that as prime minister, by definition, she couldn’t leak. In other words, everything was secret until she or her government decided it wasn’t.

    Tracy Watkins Fairfax NZ News

    This doesn’t bode well for David Shearer as the sole arbiter and gate keeper of SIS and GCSB wrongdoing.

    In the interests of openess and transparancy in defence of our democracy the Labour opposition and should be encouraging all government MPs as Peter Dunne has done, to ‘blow the whistle’ on illegal and corrupt dealings that they come across in their parliamentary work.

    The Labour Party need ta leader who is experienced, sure footed, principled and competent. Able to work with others without being an autocrat. And at the very least be able to string more than a few words together with out getting tongue tied.

    If Labour are ever to manage a coalition government made up of disparate parties and viewpoints, they will need a leader who stops continually floundering completely out of his depth.

    • Te Reo Putake 1.1

      “In the interests of openess and transparancy in defence of our democracy the Labour opposition and should be encouraging all government MPs as Peter Dunne has done, to ‘blow the whistle’ on illegal and corrupt dealings that they come across in their parliamentary work.”

      Dunne isn’t a whistleblower, the report was going to be released a few days later anyway. He’s just a sad, bored old man who let his little head do his thinking for him. Shearer is right, it’s now a matter for the cops to sort out.

    • Ad 1.2

      Shearer should keep his head down and leave it to Peters to stalk the battlefield and bayonet the wounded.

      Peters has all the ammunition, the emails will out one way or the other, the whole story segues pretty well into the US leaks story, so it has at least 5 months of media to run. More if there’s a Police investigation.

      And with Banks functionally gone…

      …Net result for Peters is he’s closer to being primary kingmaker against the Greens leading up to Nov 2014.

    • Red Rosa 1.3

      Got it in one, Jenny. Check this for dismal reading…..

      http://www.stuff.co.nz/national/politics/8776490/Attempts-to-get-reporters-emails-will-be-fought

      If ever NZ needed an effective opposition it is now. And the Greens can’t do it on their own.

      And forget whingeing about the MSM meantime. They can’t make bricks without straw. And when they manage a real scoop, don’t sic the cops onto them.

    • Treetop 1.4

      There has been talk of comparing Key to Muldoon which I agree with. I compare Shearer to Rowling.

      There needs to be a commission of inquiry into Dunne and the terms of reference need to cover

      Why the PM is not prepared to expose the Dunne emails? The reporter could be given immunity.

      I think that Dunne is more of a threat to Key than Key losing Dunne’s vote in the House as Key is protecting Dunne. The threat could be exposing Key about his knowledge of Dotcom and Fletcher has protected Key.

      Sir Ferguson is a friend of Dunne’s and resides in Dunne’s electorate. Either or both Vance and Ferguson know the truth because Dunne knows how treacherous Key can be and requires insurance.

      I think that Dunne gets off on being a power vote in the house and that he got himself in too deep.

  2. Jenny 2

    If a by-election was called….

    Could Labour win Ohariu?

    In 2011 the electorate returned 18,764 party votes for National, 10,036 for Labour and 5453 for the Greens.

    Adam Dudding Fairfax NZ News

    The answer is YES!

    Combined the Labour Green vote 15,489 is only 3,275 behind national’s making Ohariu officially a marginal seat.

    The Greens have not seriously contested electorate seats and instead have relied on the party vote to win seats..

    The Greens have no chance of winning the Ohariu seat. By seriously contesting this seat, they would only achieve a greater defeat for the Labour candidate.

    Nationally the Greens need to work with Labour to get National out. This is a given. In Ohariu Belmont, tactically, the best thing the Greens could do. Is to help their potential coalition partner gain the treasury benches.

    This means that the Greens will need to stand in solidarity with the Labour candidate.

    The Green Party should put up a candidate, but that candidate should endorse the Labour Candidate at every opportunity, and call on all Green Party supporters to tactically vote Labour.

    Even the Green Party billboards should call on a tactical vote for the Labour candidate.

    The justly famous Labour Party electoral machine should descend on Ohariu Belmont. Green and Labour members and supporters working together,.door knocking, canvassing, erecting billboards etc. could easily russle up the required extra three and a half thousand votes needed to achieve a comfortable win for the Labour candidate.

    The Nacts are worried.

    Hooton gives his spin:

    …even though Ohariu is safely National’s, a by-election would be unwelcome as it would create uncertainty about the stability of the present government, which would have a “terrible impact” on economic confidence and certainty.

    Mathew Hooton Fairfax NZ News

    • Pasupial 2.1

      @ Jenny
      “The Greens have not seriously contested electorate seats and instead have relied on the party vote to win seats.” That has been the case since Jeanette Fitzsimmons lost Coromandel – but she seemed pretty serious to me. I think we should start to seriously contest electorate seats once more; despite MMP, electorate seats seem to have greater mana than list in our political culture. If Chauvel was still around, or there was some quid pro quo on offer from Labour, then the scheme you propose might be worth the tarnishing of the Green party’s reputation that would come with pulling an Epsom.

      Plus; really? You’re leading with a quote from Tracy Watkins?? I’m no fan of the modern Labour Party or Mr Mumblefuck, but please! I can’t be bothered wading through her article, but would just point out that Dunne is not PM, and her interpretation of Clarke’s “couldn’t leak” line is peculiar.

      Should we have legal protection for whistle-blowers and leakers? Probably, though I imagine there’d have to be some limits on that (time of war, false information; to mention two). Should not politicians be accountable to the current law; even if I, or they, personally disagree with that law? Unequivocably yes!

      Did Dunne leak the Kitteridge report, or is he being set up to take the fall for some one else? It seems to sit strangely with his stated intention of supporting the bill for GCSB expanded powers. If he leaked, I applaud his action; but he should still pay the price. If you or I were to break the law, and get caught; then there would be consequences.

      If no law has been broken, then there is no need for police involvement. That’s one for the lawyers amongst us, and certainly; any emails that are irrelevant to the issue should not be made public. Dunne does have a right to privacy, despite what journalists and opposition MPs might wish.

      • weka 2.1.1

        “Plus; really? You’re leading with a quote from Tracy Watkins??”

        Yesterday her main argument was based on John Armstrong’s spin about the GP.

  3. So how about fuck you.

    Fuck you with a sharp stick, Contrarian.
    You are a proven liar who argues for the poisoning of people’s water.

    http://www.kiwiblog.co.nz/2013/06/the_fluoridation_backlash.html/comment-page-1#comment-1155547

    • Te Reo Putake 3.1

      Oh dear, TC nails your inability to back up your fluoride fantasies and you can’t think of an answer. Fascinating stuff. Yawn.

      • Ugly Truth 3.1.1

        Eugenics is no fantasy, moron.

        EUGENICS

        The movement began in the late 19th century with reasonable goals. Both scientists and members of the general public were interested in using their newly acquired knowledge of inheritance to work toward making improvements in the human “stock.” But, with time, the eugenics movement became a tool for discriminating against and harming individuals and groups. By the end of World War II, the word “eugenics” was forever linked to acts of discrimination and extreme cruelty.

        http://highschoolbioethics.georgetown.edu/units/cases/unit4_i.html

        • Te Reo Putake 3.1.1.1

          Sorry, I thought you and TC were talking about fluoride, didn’t realise you’d moved on to Godwin.

          • Ugly Truth 3.1.1.1.1

            Godwin wasn’t implied. Andrew Mellon was the most visible connection between he eugenics movement and fluoridation.

            Founded by Andrew and Richard Mellon, financiers of the aluminium giant Alcoa, the Mellon Institute specialised in conducting research for industry. For generations, it was a leading defender of the asbestos industry, producing research to show that mesothelioma was not caused by asbestos. Andrew Mellon was at the head of the Public Health Service when it dispatched dentist H. T. Dean (“the father of fluoridation”) to study fluoride’s dental effects.
            http://www.fannz.org.nz/history.php

            • One Anonymous Knucklehead 3.1.1.1.1.1

              It’s definitely a massive conspiracy that involves everyone in the medical and dental professions. They’ve even fooled the British Medical Journal.

              Systematic review of water fluoridation…

              Conclusions: The evidence of a beneficial reduction in caries should be considered together with the increased prevalence of dental fluorosis. There was no clear evidence of other potential adverse effects.

              • Colonial Viper

                There was no evidence of other potential adverse effects.

                But that’s not what it said though is it? The difference between “no evidence” and “no clear evidence” is small, but important.

                And of course, dental fluorosis is a physical sign that the body is physiologically overloaded with fluoride.

                • One Anonymous Knucklehead

                  It says considerably more than that – details on potential adverse effects from cancer to goitres. I just quoted the conclusion.

              • It’s definitely a massive conspiracy that involves everyone in the medical and dental professions. They’ve even fooled the British Medical Journal.

                The good old “too big to be true” fallacy.

                “If I were reincarnated I would wish to be returned to earth as a killer virus to lower human population levels.”
                — Prince Phillip – Duke of Edinburgh, leader of the World Wildlife Fund – quoted in ‘Are You Ready For Our New Age Future?’, Insiders Report, American Policy Center, December ’95

                “The United Nation’s goal is to reduce population selectively by encouraging abortion, forced sterilization, and control of human reproduction, and regards two-thirds of the human population as excess baggage, with 350,000 people to be eliminated per day.”
                – Jacques Cousteau, UNESCO Courier, Nov. 1991

                • One Anonymous Knucklehead

                  Jacques Cousteau was born in 1910, and died in 1997. During this time, global average life expectancy went from about thirty to about fifty-five.

                  Obviously the vast UN conspiracy he uncovered wasn’t very effective.

                  Or perhaps it’s the good old “divergence from reality” fallacy.

                  • Maybe they weren’t following your game plan.

                    • TheContrarian

                      Reality: Life expectancy on the up, public health getting better, population continues to rise etc etc etc.

                      UglyTruth: I don’t have to provide evidence.

                      You have lost the argument.

                      [lprent: pwned argument. Please desist – especially since it looks like deliberate baiting. ]

                    • One Anonymous Knucklehead

                      Got nothing so fall back on cryptic vacuity much?

                    • Colonial Viper

                      Reality: Life expectancy on the up, public health getting better, population continues to rise etc etc etc.

                      lol that’s funny, reads like the Hail Mary from the religion of universal progress

                    • “reads like the Hail Mary from the religion of universal progress”

                      SIR FRANCIS GALTON, FATHER OF EUGENICS: “It must be introduced into the national conscience, like a new religion. It has, indeed, strong claims to become an orthodox religious, tenet of the future, for eugenics co-operate with the workings of nature by securing that humanity shall be represented by the fittest races…. I see no impossibility in Eugenics becoming a religious dogma among mankind.” (Eugenics: Its Definition Scope and Aims, 1904)

                      http://www.infowars.com/religion-of-eugenics-the-state-is-god/

                    • One Anonymous Knucklehead

                      Quote mining dead people makes you feel special?

                  • McFlock

                    I know people will be shocked to hear this, but it turns out that Ugly Truth’s Cousteau “quote”, though regurgitated on a number of nutbar sites, is not actually correct. Check out page 13:

                    What should we do to eliminate suffering
                    and disease? It’s a wonderful idea but perhaps
                    not altogether a beneficial one in the long run.
                    If we try to implement it we may jeopardize
                    the future of our species.
                    It’s terrible to have to say this. World
                    population must be stabilized and to do that
                    we must eliminate 350,000 people per day.
                    This is so horrible to contemplate that we
                    shouldn’t even say it. But the general situa¬
                    tion in which we are involved is lamentable.

                    And yet solutions must exist. . . .

                    It’s a question of cost. We need $400 billion
                    a year for fifteen years. To provide people with
                    safe drinking water. To provide schooling
                    for girls and low pensions for the elderly.
                    With $4 billion over fifteen years we can not
                    only reduce demographic pressure but halt
                    population growth.

                    Cousteau was expressing ideas not entirely unfamiliar in this forum, e.g.:

                    Fifteen years ago, when I was in the United States, I tried to construct a mathematical model to find out how many people our planet could support with the income, purchasing power, and amenities enjoyed by the average American at that time. The data at my disposal were not very precise and right from the start I knew that the approximation would be of the order of 40 to 50 per cent. At that time I was friendly with the director of the Océanographie Laboratory of the University of Southern California, whose researchers served my colleagues and myself as advisers. With the parameters I had at my disposal, I came up with the figure of 700 million. Seven hundred million people enjoying a standard of living comparable to that of the average American!
                    Fifteen years ago our planet was unable to provide an agreeable life for more than 700 million people! World population was then four billion

                    He certainly wasn’t outlining or speaking for official UN policy at the time.

                    Ugly Truth is a idiot with a confirmation bias to the point of delusion.

                    • Ugly Truth is a idiot with a confirmation bias to the point of delusion.

                      Tell about me how I was wrong about The Contrarian lying to defend the use of fluoride, fool.

                    • One Anonymous Knucklehead

                      Tell me how accusing TC of lying defends your own deceitful behaviour, wretch.

                    • McFlock

                      come, come, OAK. I don’t think he was being intentionally deceitful.
                      I suspect UT is just an idiot – or still has many years in hand to learn that (as Abraham Lincoln once said) “nine out of ten attributed quotations on the internet are bunk”.

                    • One Anonymous Knucklehead

                      Not a particularly flattering distinction.

                • Murray Olsen

                  Silly old Phillip was more ambitious than Charles, who would have settled for coming back as a tampon. Hmmm, I do remember toxic shock syndrome…….

                  • prism

                    I think Charles should be honoured with respect by letting that ‘quirky’ little comment vanish for good.

                    • Clockie

                      Don’t you believe in Karma Prism?

                    • muzza

                      “If I were reincarnated I would wish to be returned to earth as a killer virus to lower human population levels.”

                      ― H.R.H. Prince Philip

                      A quite disgusting family, not even British, should always remain the brunt of ridicule!

                      WHAT!

                    • prism

                      Clockie
                      Was that something sung by Boy George?

                      and Muzza
                      Your comments are very lively, interesting and provocative. Though they make me think of Shakespeare “it is a tale told by an idiot, full of sound and fury, signifying nothing.”
                      Nothing personal however.

            • TheContrarian 3.1.1.1.1.2

              Provide evidence that fluoride in the water supply has created public health problems.

              • One Anonymous Knucklehead

                What, a writ of prejudice and suspicion from The People’s Court isn’t good enough for you?

              • Rhinocrates

                What, haven’t you seen Dr Strangelove ? United States Air Force Strategic Air Command General Jack D. Ripper, no less, articulates a compelling argument.

          • weka 3.1.1.1.2

            False invocations of Godwin’s law, you’re sinking a bit low TRP.

            • Te Reo Putake 3.1.1.1.2.1

              Nope, eugenics is directly linked to you know who, so I think it’s a fair call to say that linking fluoride in water to that philosophy is a Godwin.

              • weka

                That means we can never talk about N@zi Germany in any argument ever, or even refer to a phenomenon that has connections with N@zi Germany. That’s not what Godwin’s law is about. Were UT to compare you to a N@zi or H1tler, that would be invoking Godwin’s law. Simply talking about N@zis doesn’t count (not that that was what UT was doing anyway).

                • Te Reo Putake

                  “That’s not what Godwin’s law is about.”

                  Actually, proving Godwin’s law is exactly what UT did. He replied to my comment by leaping angrily to eugenics. That’s a de facto Godwin right there.

                  • It’s not a real law, and the fact that I called you moron doesn’t mean that I was angry. Calling you a moron is a way of drawing attention to your not-so-clever avoidance of the real issue, sort of like what you’re doing now.

                    • McFlock

                      but it was approved by a de facto court of the Hundred on the interwebz, it MUST be a real law!

                    • TheContrarian

                      Provide evidence that fluoride in the water supply has created public health problems.

                    • TheContrarian

                      Provide evidence that fluoride in the water supply has created public health problems.

                  • weka

                    “Actually, proving Godwin’s law is exactly what UT did. He replied to my comment by leaping angrily to eugenics. That’s a de facto Godwin right there”

                    No, eugenics has previously been raised in this debate, and someone made the connection between eugenics and fluoride within the fluoridation debate. Irrespective of whether the connection is valid within the debate, it’s not being used as a way of calling you or anyone else a N@zi (as part of approaching an endpoint of a long futile argument that has degenerated to that level).

                    It doesn’t matter how angry UT’s posts were or if they were having a go at you. You can disagree with UT’s side of the debate all you like, but your calling on Godwin’s law was false.

                    • Te Reo Putake

                      Fair call from where you’re sitting, Weka, but as I was unaware of the rest of the debate, leaping straight to eugenics after insulting me is very much a Godwin, as I understand the concept.

                      Remember, I was replying specifically to the link to KB that UT provided, not the wider debate about fluoride. I made a comment, and UT responded with an insult and a reference to something closely associated with 1930’s Germany. That’s a Godwin and a lightening fast one at that.

                      I haven’t been involved in the wider debate, but now that the link to eugenics has been made, I’m all the more convinced that fluoride in water is a good thing and removing it is an attack on the poor in particular.

                    • Rhinocrates

                      May I invoke a meta-Godwin based on observation of this sub-thread?:

                      “Once Godwin’s Rule has been mentioned, all discussion will revolve about whether it applies – and at that point, it has definitely become pointless.”

                      Of course that suggests a para-meta-Godwin:

                      “Even saying the G-word is an attempt to invoke the meta-G-word is a conversational grenade, designed to end discussion.”

                      Furthermore, there is the hyper-para-meta-G…

                    • Populuxe1

                      Why yes, and I believe it was UT who made that particular connection. Does that make it a meta-Godwin?

              • ghostrider888

                maybe Galton

              • It doesn’t matter anyway, it’s not like it is areal law, it’s just a convention based on the assumption that nothing today is like Nazi Germany.

                • weka

                  No that’s not what Godwin’s law is either.

                  Godwin’s law (also known as Godwin’s Rule of Nazi Analogies or Godwin’s Law of Nazi Analogies)is an assertion made by Mike Godwin in 1990 that has become an Internet adage. It states: “As an online discussion grows longer, the probability of a comparison involving Nazis or Hitler approaches 1.”In other words, Godwin said that, given enough time, in any online discussion—regardless of topic or scope—someone inevitably makes a comparison to Hitler or the Nazis.

                  http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Godwin's_law

                  • Pascal's bookie

                    Exactly, which renders the discussion here pointless. It simply doesn’t matter when, or by whom, a thread confirms Godwin’s law.

                    • The point is that the Godwin’s argument is based on an assumption that no longer holds true.

                      Or, as urbandictionary puts it:

                      Made obsolete by the Neocons.
                      Thanks to the Neocons, Godwin’s law is now obsolete.

                    • weka

                      What?

                    • Weka, the point of Godwin’s law was to realize when a debate no longer served any useful purpose. The argument was that everyday society was so far removed from Nazi Germany that any debate that involved making comparisons with the Nazi’s version of fascism was logically untenable.

                      But that was back when Homeland Security was a term that you would attribute to one of Hitler’s people.

                    • weka

                      “the point of Godwin’s law was to realize when a debate no longer served any useful purpose.”

                      Sure.

                      “The argument was that everyday society was so far removed from Nazi Germany that any debate that involved making comparisons with the Nazi’s version of fascism was logically untenable.”

                      Um, I thought the point was that eventually all arguments have the propensity to reach the point where someone can no longer argue reasonably and so calls someone a N@zi (and thus loses by default).

                      “But that was back when Homeland Security was a term that you would attribute to one of Hitler’s people.”

                      But it’s not like fascism hasn’t existed since WW2 until now. The point isn’t whether the analogy is close to being true, it’s that if someone needs to use the analogy in the first place they probably need to step away from the computer for a while.

                      You weren’t drawing an analogy, which is why I cried foul on invoking the law.

                    • Pascal's bookie

                      Nah, the point of ‘Godwin’s law’ was to test a hypothesis that memes could be countered with, err, counter memes.

                      Godwin was playing around with this idea, coined his ‘law’ and seeded it in vraious threads where N@zis were mentioned. And it took off, as we see here.

                    • “Um, I thought the point was that eventually all arguments have the propensity to reach the point where someone can no longer argue reasonably and so calls someone a N@zi (and thus loses by default).”

                      That’s like saying that people are incapable or admitting defeat when debating, or always eventually resort to ad-hominems or abuse. It’s just an observation of ego in action, hopefully there are people out there who don’t have to validate their own sense of self-worth by always getting the last word in or throwing a hissy fit if they don’t.

                    • “Nah, the point of ‘Godwin’s law’ was to test a hypothesis that memes could be countered with, err, counter memes.”

                      That’s an interesting interpretation.

                      At one end of the scale you’ve got Godwin’s original words and at the other you’ve got how his words have been interpreted as a means of deflecting attention away from a particular topic.

                    • Pascal's bookie

                      Here’s some of Mike Godwin’s actual words for you UT:

                      http://www.wired.com/wired/archive/2.10/godwin.if.html

                  • You can pretty much count on Wikipedia to be wrong about anything important relating to law and contemporary fascism.

                    A term that originated on Usenet, Godwin’s Law states that as an online argument grows longer and more heated, it becomes increasingly likely that somebody will bring up Adolf Hitler or the Nazis. When such an event occurs, the person guilty of invoking Godwin’s Law has effectively forfieted the argument.

                    Usenet There is a tradition in many groups that, once this occurs, that thread is over, and whoever mentioned the Nazis has automatically lost whatever argument was in progress. Godwin’s Law thus practically guarantees the existence of an upper bound on thread length in those groups. However there is also a widely- recognized codicil that any intentional triggering of Godwin’s Law in order to invoke its thread-ending effects will be unsuccessful.

                    http://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=Godwin%27s%20law

                    • weka

                      “You can pretty much count on Wikipedia to be wrong about anything important relating to law and contemporary fascism.”

                      Are you saying that the piece I quoted is incorrect?

                    • Yes, because in practical terms the application of Godwin’s “law” meant that the argument was over. Wikipedia is seriously f****d up about these sort of issues.

                    • weka

                      But the bit I quoted doesn’t say anything about the argument being over or not. Please point to the exact part of what I quoted that is wrong.

                    • Weka, the problem was that it was incomplete. Wikipedia failed to include the idea of limiting the field of debate.

                    • prism

                      Ugly Truth
                      Since you are the arbiter of what the truth is, you should not allow Wikipedia to continue in its confused, incomplete form. You should be correcting it and your communications indicate you have the knowledge and tools to do so as people are allowed to do I understand. Unless you have been banned for some good reason.

    • weka 3.2

      “Fuck you with a sharp stick, Contrarian.”

      I think you’re crossing a line there UT, enough with the sexual violence please.

    • prism 3.3

      Try to argue with words of reason only Ugly Truth. Keep the sharp stick etc for when you have put a good argument and can’t win through. It’s too early in the process yet to let the language fly. Keep something in reserve can’t you.

    • Weka, Prism, thanks for the comments about my language. The reason I do it is to attract attention to issues of importance. I’d prefer not to see it in debate.

      • McFlock 3.4.1

        ends justify the pointy means, eh?

      • Pasupial 3.4.2

        O Ugly one!

        Since you regard Urban Dictionary as so superior to Wikipedia as a repository of human knowledge, you may be interested in knowing that their definition for “Ugly Truth” is:

        “Finiding [sic] out after you picked a girl up at a strip club that she actually has a dick.”

        Pasupial, on the other hand, isn’t defined yet. After today, I fully expect it to be; “some one who should be fucked with a sharp stick”. But given your evident propensities I suppose I should regard that as a compliment.

        PS/ Apologies to any transgendered who may be offended – just a wee taste of their own medicine for a repugnant bigot.

        • Pasupial 3.4.2.1

          Was in edit mode when timed out, and for some reason that wiped my nom de clave [which is now back above]. Should end:

          PS/ Apologies to any transgendered who may be offended. The propensities line was about him (at least I assume Ugly is a male); picking someone up at a strip club (ew!), rather than her having a dick. Just a wee taste of their own medicine for a repugnant bigot.

      • prism 3.4.3

        Well there are a lot of ugly truths around. I would like to see them debated with the f word and other such strong language left for final shots of dissatisfaction not thrown around promiscuously. Or what about venting in acronym – so trendy – FFS.

    • McFlock 3.5

      lol

      Why did you bring a bitch-fight you two had in the sewer here? Too much lead in your bloodstream?

      • Ugly Truth 3.5.1

        What bitch fight? TC got his ass kicked and now he’s just running around in circles trying to make demands.

        @TheContrarian

        UT: You lied when you said: “So nothing. You have nothing. No facts, just assertion.”
        TC: That is assertion.
        UT: Facts are expressed as assertions.
        UT: Do you deny the first fact, that fluoride is a poison which accumulates in the body?
        TC: No.

        http://www.kiwiblog.co.nz/2013/06/the_fluoridation_backlash.html/comment-page-1#comment-1155761

        • TheContrarian 3.5.1.1

          Provide evidence that fluoride in the water supply has created public health problems.

          • McFlock 3.5.1.1.1

            Contrarian: do you deny the fact that pure water is a poison that accumulates in the body?

            • ghostrider888 3.5.1.1.1.1

              accumulation of some body fluids require the emptying of dirty water from time to time 😉

        • One Anonymous Knucklehead 3.5.1.2

          Paging Dr. Dunning-Kruger.

        • McFlock 3.5.1.3

          let’s assume that your interpretation of events is correct (doubtful) and TC “got his ass kicked” (although I suggest someone should call the SPCA).

          That suggests that you brought your gloating here from the sewer for approval/respect/awe.
          So beneath all your bluster lies a scared little kid seeking validation from others. Well, you won’t get it from me: you’re a shallow little peon who thinks that parroting the few blogs that coincide with your egotistical bias is the same as profound philosophical thought. You are an ass’s arse, with similar results.

          • Ugly Truth 3.5.1.3.1

            The alternative position is that the public interest is served by people becoming more aware of the issues surrounding the fluoridation debate.

            … and that you’re projecting your own mean-spirited nature, McFlock.

            • TheContrarian 3.5.1.3.1.1

              Provide evidence that fluoride in the water supply has created public health problems.

              • One Anonymous Knucklehead

                The BMJ article linked above is a good place to start. A taster:

                “There were four analyses that indicated a significant increase in risk of fracture and five that indicated a significant decrease in risk at the 5% significance level.”

                Oh noes! The conspirators are divided among themselves!!!

            • One Anonymous Knucklehead 3.5.1.3.1.2

              “…the public interest is served by people becoming more aware of the issues surrounding the fluoridation debate.”

              The “issues” about the “debate”?

              This cartoon is as good an illustration of the “debate” as any. Medical science is the one in the ring with the gloves on.

              • TheContrarian

                “…the public interest is served by people becoming more aware of the issues surrounding the fluoridation debate.”

                Pretty hard to make people aware when you refuse to show any evidence that fluoridation of the water supply has lead to any public health problems.

        • prism 3.5.1.4

          I guess fluoride does accumulate in the teeth, the purpose for imbibing it. What does a miniscule amount do in the body that has caused alarm to you?

        • Populuxe1 3.5.1.5

          Am I bovvered? Does my face look bovvered?

        • prism 3.5.1.6

          UT
          That sounds like one of my favourite Monty Python skits – the Argument. You should pay The Standard for letting you joust here.

    • Alex Jones got called an idiot. Convincing stuff there, TRP.

    • muzza 4.2

      With the NSA situation finally coming to mainstream view, I think you might find, the likes of Alex Jones, grow their audience, accordingly!

      Jones has been covering the NSA having access into telecoms providers networks, for years!

      Why is it , Voice, you and people who share views such as yours, find Alex Jones so hard to ignore?

      While not a fan of Jones, like all commentators, he has a place, and many of the subjects he has been leading on for many years, which people have, *blown off* are now coming out, as facts!

      • Te Reo Putake 4.2.1

        The real truth coming out doesn’t make fantasists like Jones any more credible. The reason I posted the clip is because it’s a visual example of how crazed he is. Anybody that can make Andrew Neil look sensible is not to be trusted.

        • Ugly Truth 4.2.1.1

          Trust him or not, the fact that he is getting more media exposure is an indication that there is a growing interest in “conspiracy theory” type material. Blowing him off as a loon is too easy.

          • Pascal's bookie 4.2.1.1.1

            “Blowing him off as a loon is too easy”

            he should try and make it harder by not being such an obvious loon.

        • muzza 4.2.1.2

          Voice, I do agree with the second half of your comment, in so much as Jones does not do himself any favours with the ranting, and such like. As always , it should not detract from the message, and information, being delivered!

          If you believe, that subject matter Jones has been making information, public on for years, does not make him more credible, you’re as deluded, as you claim , the like of Jones are!

          Simply, it comes down to a couple of key points

          1: Fear, what else might people like Jones, be correct on, that people such as yourself have derided him over!

          2: Ego, and the belief that such *conspiracy theorists*, are intellectually beneath you, because how could a *conspiracy theorist*, possibly know/understand/have access to more informed knowledge/information, that *thy self*!

          These two points, sum up, more than adequately, the inability to allow people, such as Jones, their fair dues!

          • Te Reo Putake 4.2.1.2.1

            The problem with your analysis is that Jones is correct on nothing and I don’t sneer at him because he is intellectually my inferior. You may be right that he is, but it’s not for me to say.

            • Ugly Truth 4.2.1.2.1.1

              This is from prisonplanet.com, Jones’ site. Is he wrong about it?

              In 1907, more than a decade before Hitler began his ascent to power in Germany, the U.S. had already enacted its first eugenics sterilization law. According to historical accounts, then-Indiana Governor J. Frank Hanly approved a law mandating sterilization of certain individuals in state custody, building on systems of thought already covertly established in the late 1800s that alleged traits like criminality, mental problems, and even being poor were hereditary.

              http://www.prisonplanet.com/what-does-americas-dark-history-of-eugenics-mean-for-society-today.html

              • Te Reo Putake

                Probably, yes. It depends on what conclusion he draws from the historical fact.

                • So what you’re saying is the fact relating to the US origin of eugenics (from his site) is correct, even though he is correct on nothing like you said before?

                  It would probably just be simpler if you admitted that he is sometimes right.

                  • McFlock

                    is that his assertion, as in something that he discovered? Or is it merely a restatement of previously known information rather than an analysis or prediction that is his, and that therefore goes straight to his credibility?

                    I’m sure Alex Jones has said that “two plus two equals four”. One could say that therefore “Jones is correct on nothing” is false. But this would be a trite piece of pedantry made to distract from the substantive truth.

              • ghostrider888

                could save me money on condoms.

  4. Ennui 5

    There is a scene in Papillon where Henri Charrière, reflects that he may be innocent but he is guilty of a wasted life, a far greater crime. Reflecting on the years I have been aware of Peter Duune is also an exercise in waste. I cannot see what he has achieved other than steering with the tiller set directly to the bow, a grey unbending certainty.

    I was first aware of Peter when he was President at Canterbury, very boring he was too, no beer chiller for student events on his agenda, a wowser par excellence. From there to Alcohol Liquor Advisory Council, maybe his only “real” job, maybe the only time I am aware of him standing for anything (old fashioned wowserism). To Labour, hand picked, and still you ask, what did he stand for? Who knows, Karori and Labour to their eternal shame allowed this man of no known meaning to flourish. Maybe his greyness reflected them.

    Jumping ship to NZ Future, an amorphous blob congealing again around no real meaning or ideological direction, what did we learn apart from his ability to desert one party and sign up for the next. It becomes all about Peter and position, cabinet minister for two different parties. Still what does he stand for? Who and what is he?

    What are we left with? Absolutely nothing. His legacy? A waste of our time.

    • ghostrider888 5.1

      you got that right!

      • Ennui 5.1.1

        Shakespeare and the death of Lady Macbeth comes to mind…”Out, out, brief candle! Life’s but a walking shadow, a poor player that struts and frets his hour upon the stage and then is heard no more: it is a tale told by an idiot, full of sound and fury, signifying nothing.”

        • ghostrider888 5.1.1.1

          have you seen the film Anonymous?
          http://www.imdb.com/title/tt1521197/?ref_=sr_1
          often I view a film so telling and profound, I do not need to watch another one for ages; this was one of those. I never studied Shakespeare at school, or Uni for that matter, but the Bard rocks, easier to follow than Chaucer, and some of the modern adaptations are excellent context translations. There is one with Ralph Fiennes, Coriolanus, that I would like to see.
          The film of Onegin with Fiennes is excellent too.
          So you read the dilemma of the candle in the wind, never knowing who to turn to when the rain sets in. As the ‘Spengler’ link from C.V yesterday identifies, all the artistic modes of cultural transmission just get re# 😉

          “There are no indisputable truths
          and there ain’t no fountain of youth…”
          http://www.lyricsfreak.com/o/ozzy+osbourne/i+just+want+you_20103963.html
          although, been reflecting, I do not feel any different in age than before, strange that, Peter Pan, trapped in time; must be “something wrong” or right with us when our self-concept does not match our “social-clock” age.

          • Ennui 5.1.1.1.1

            Not seen Anonymous….will compare notes when I have. I ignored Shakespeare at school, started reading it when the internet bored me senseless. Corialanus, wonderful, also….liked the Richard the Third film too. Much good that does me with the world, lots of useless information handed down for me to spout…in the words of Morrissey..
            I am the son and heir
            Of nothing in particular

            • ghostrider888 5.1.1.1.1.1

              aren’t we all, ‘But Wait, There’s More’, Michelle Boag, the Suzanne Clip Massage Pillow of the National Party.
              Takes a while to ‘master’ discerning use of the Internet yet we may have it down pat for now. What next? Like the half-eaten apple-worm, remains to be seen. Who would be a post-modern social archaeologist aye! Still, delays and distracts from excessive anaesthetization,zzzzzzzzzz.

  5. Wow. Key is on Radio New Zealand and Kim Hill is giving him heaps. What has happened to inquisitorial journalism. More please.

    • Pete 6.1

      I’ve waited a long time to hear that interview.

    • Dv 6.2

      I miss Kim Hill Please please come back.

      • Tim 6.2.1

        Indeed! I’m also hoping that when we get PS Television back, she might feature prominently. It’ll take something like that to finally bury the ‘rent-a-commentator’ electronic media we see at the moment.

        • Dv 6.2.1.1

          She did do a stint on TV in the 90’s??

          But she is better on Radio

          • Tim 6.2.1.1.1

            Yep – Face to Face apparently wasn’t a roaring success, however in the absence of anything similar, we might find something like that would have a better run today. But as you say, radio is her forte.
            She is fiercely intelligent, and extremely well read. Many don’t like her manner, but at least she stands for the principles of the 4th Estate.
            There are others of course – scattered around the spectrum and often parked up in off peak time slots.

            • Pete 6.2.1.1.1.1

              NZ On Screen has some clips.

              • weka

                I remember all those harsh angles and close ups. Really unnecessary, not only because they were distracting, but because Hill is enough of a drawcard herself and doesn’t need faux windowdressing.

              • Molly

                My first impression of Kim Hill was watching her interview John Pilger on Face to Face. Thought she was an embarrassment to NZ journalism, and couldn’t bring myself to watch her again. Was inspired to read John Pilger though – so not a complete waste of time.

                Part of the episode is on NZonScreen but I recall her being quite antagonistic from the get go – she really seemed to want him to admit that NZ should join the US in their War on Terror.

                Was surprised to find out how many enjoy her interviews. After all this time, I may be able to listen again without prejudice and give it another go.

                • Rhinocrates

                  Do give her a go. It’s sad to realise that idols often have clay feet, and Pilger is one of them. He may be on the right side, but he seems to have a real problem with women who ask questions.

                  It’s perhaps epitomised by this series, Edward Said’s Reith Lectures “Gods that Always Fail”:

                  http://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/p00gxqwn

        • prism 6.2.1.2

          Tim
          Do you honestly think we can get PS tv back? It would be a great example of having a vital left wing in politics again. But unlikely to happen. The user pays aspect of it predominates rather than the connected, informed citizen who can make good political decisions.

          We won’t be able to afford it as we end up earning similar to the 1930s and go onto ever flatter tax rates. (Someone on radio talking about what we pay for prison meals – $4.50 a day per person I thought I heard.)

          • Tim 6.2.1.2.1

            @ Prism.

            You’re probably going to regret you ever got me started, but “Do you honestly think we can get PS tv back?”

            My answer is YES – with provisos of course.

            [ Actually I’ll try and limit myself because my self imposed 1 week ban hasn’t been that successful, and (I THINK it is still in force until tomorrow).
            I THINK I might have pissed Irish Bill off close to a week ago by becoming borderline personal (not sure) – I just have a certain disposition that coaxes a fight in me based on what is sauce for ganders is source for gooses .
            The likes of Soimon Brudges and Labour’s old guard, (among many others, often lap up the sauce but can’t handle the kick-back). There are also certain contributors on here that are quick to accuse (and to assume – Popsicles, TC’s, other provocateurs and their ilk whose only desire is to exercise their egos) – who quite frankly PISS ME OFF. (There’s a popsicle, for example, that accused me of homophobia, sexism, and a number of other things – oh…. racism even, that doesn;t actually know me from the bar of soap he intentionally dropped in the shower)
            AND in any event, I wouldn’t presume to impose on the owners, or ‘stakeholders’ of this site – I’d prefer to just observe, take it all in, and admire their gumption for making the whole thing possible. (I realise that sounds very Mora-esque, but I’m not the one that’s invested the time and effort in providing this platform – so it’s on their terms of course! In other words – I’m an anonymouse Guest – anonymouse for very good reason, and it’d be pretty damn crass of me to try and intentionally offend). Yep – the ban isn’t up, and I’m still in ‘simmer down mode’ ]

            So …. YES – we can get PS TV (NOT ‘State Service’ TV) back.

            It’ll require:
            – A Curran to put her money where her mouth is (and/or any other of the alternative political parties spokesfolk on b’casting)
            – Her parliamentary colleagues (from both sides of the aisle) to rediscover their souls.
            – Her/Them (or whoever else) to devise a legal and political mechanism that ensures any future attempt to tamper is
            a) difficult
            b) politically embarrassing

            It’s a challenge I know – because the lack of commitment to PSTV in recent times has been really fucking pathetic:

            – Labour (last) made a bit of a fatal mistake in that they never really thought past the short term. (Funding issues; those in charge of what was supposed to be our TV PSB:
            a) not really being THAT committed to it,
            b) essentially being over-ambitious and egotistically driven;
            c) putting the commercial imperative before the public interest;
            d) being over-ambitious and egotistically driven;
            e) being over-ambitious and egotistically driven;
            f) being over-ambitious and egotistically driven;
            g) not actually understanding the nature of PSB and what it is about.

            – The issue of funding and how we might ensure it remains a viable proposition in an environment of various divergence AND convergence.

            – A population/generation that’s never been given the opportunity to experience a media alternative

            -etc., etc., etc.

            DISTRACTION: (Oh GAWD ….. Jummy Jum is blaring in the background and dear old Rosie MacLeeUdd is ‘On the Panel’ – given my anonymouse background it’s hard to turn her off but I’ll continue (in the hope you’re interested in the opinion of moi that you asked for). Thankfully she’s alongside someone half decent!
            Here’s an expose of my prejudices: HOW the fuck did she ever shack up with THAT?1)
            She comes across as such a nice passive lady these days, and increasingly, her newsprint columns are lessening in the intensity of their offensiveness. (Oh sorry Darling)

            BACK TO THE POINT – and given the above:

            YES ….. PSTV is utterly possible in a population of 4 mill.

            I’ve given the provisos.

            Sure there are going to be difficulties.
            – There are KORDIA’s, Munsteries of Culcha & Heritages that have completely fucked up.
            – There are those (because of short term imperatives) that have undermined Freeviews; tried all sorts of unions for monetary gain (a la Heartlands, IGLOOS, protested intellectual property rights and whether or public interest and ownership rights might be an issue, etc., etc.). MOST – n fact ALL that I can see can be countered.

            There are good, capable people still around that are ready, willing and able to get it all off the ground (and they aren’t ALL nasty ahrd lefties) either.

            You know what…. (What?)!
            The public in recent years feels alienated from government, AND many/most politicians have managed to alienate themselves from the public in some way.

            They might consider the idea that a true electronic (because that’s the only way that it’s possible in 21C) public sphere, a 4th Estate that adheres AND actually understands the concept, and a media mix that incorporates PSB (radio.tv, internet, and whatever else emerges), commercial & non-commercial; risk taking and compliant, is THE ONLY way they might earn back some credibility.

            Told ya you wouldb’t want to get me started ( and I’ve limited myself completely – it could have been much worse)

            I could have gone on about HOW the system might be implemented (with due regard to the dominance of SKY; the disposition of Freeview and its intentional neutering; the neo-lib concern for exclusivity of the ownership of property – including intellectual property – ALL that kaka.

            • Tim 6.2.1.2.1.1

              PS – let me know if you want my opinion of the WHO and HOW – they’re not all nasty lefties

    • wyndham 6.3

      Yes indeed! At long last, someone has Key on the backfoot with him even using the Shearer-type ‘ums and ers’.
      This is what real journalism is all about.
      All power to Kim Hill!
      – – – – and let’s give her support when the right-wing vultures descend on her. And they will.

    • And here is the audio.

      Enjoy!

      [audio src="http://podcast.radionz.co.nz/mnr/mnr-20130610-0735-john_key_responds_to_claims_from_winston_peters-048.mp3" /]

    • Alanz 6.5

      Quite amazing to hear what John Key is like. It is fantastic that he is being interviewed. More please.

    • Colonial Viper 6.6

      “Three people were identified as having access to the report, two were eliminated…”

      Perhaps as head of our security services John Key could use alternative wording next time 😈

    • ghostrider888 6.7

      Kim Hill is the closest thing to a goddess New Zealand broadcasting has, although, she can be a little vague and presumptious at times, imho. 😉

    • ianmac 6.8

      Poor old John did not get a chance to use his trademark, “Um. Now let’s take a step back……” so that your question gets lost.
      And “I wouldn’t agree with that proposition. I have plenty of experts who would say otherwise….”
      Thanks Kim Hill. And fancy getting Mr Key to front for a serious issue on National Radio!!

      • ianmac 6.8.1

        “Who set the parameters for the enquiry which did not give the power to question under oath?”
        “We did.”
        “What a silly boy you are John.”
        (Paraphrased.)

  6. Chrissy 7

    Kim Hill ROCKS!!

    • Tiger Mountain 7.1

      Yep, ShonKey sounded rather billious, but he also must have had a head set on direct to Crosby Textor HQ, because for someone with such bad recall he effortlessly tossed in references to two Labour MPs who got in tight spots. Yet as the supreme “Yes Minister” he can barely remember anything about the GCSB like appointing his mate and on and on.

      Kim is a treasure, and while she has been pressed into service on Morning Report it would be great if she could stay around for another 12 months. She played a significant role in the 90s drilling into the Nats and NZ1.

      • prism 7.1.1

        TM I think that too many NACTs sound as if they were odious little bullies at school who managed to dominate with name calling and vituperation at annoying opposition. It suits Key to come out with a yah-boo about others – if they did it why shouldn’t we – is the argument. Even if ‘they’ actually didn’t do it, calling some mistake to the public’s mind with a lie of fact, just confuses past memories and obscures the present.

        It is interesting that Labour used Trevor Mallard rather than Helen Clark doing the roasting in parliament, yet John Key has found his true calling as being the mocking voice for the NACTs.

    • fender 7.2

      “Kim Hill ROCKS!!”

      She sure does. Key always sounds like a mildly-educated fool, but Kim makes him sound like a schoolboy trying to use the ‘dog ate my homework’ excuse for his first assignment.

      Kim Hill for PM!!!!!!!!

  7. In case you missed this yesterday?

    FYI

    Press Alert: Auckland mayoral Candidate Penny Bright:
    PROTEST! Against the Housing Accords and Special Housing Areas Bill , at Auckland,
    TODAY Monday 10 June from 9.30am – 11am!

    Social Services Select Committee are hearing verbal submissions IN AUCKLAND on this Bill, from 9am – 4.30pm, MONDAY 10 June 2013.

    WHERE? At the Ellerslie Novotel Hotel 72 – 112 Greenlane East, Ellerslie.
    http://www.novotel.com/gb/hotel-3060-novotel-auckland-ellerslie/location.shtml

    WHY? Only 13 days were allowed for submissions!

    This bill will allow government to override communities and councils if they don’t agree with decisions.

    The bill also supports non-notification and no right of appeal.

    ***PLEASE COME IF YOU OBJECT TO THESE UNDEMOCRATIC PRACTICES***

    I will be giving my submission from 4.10pm – 4.20pm, then giving EVIDENCE to support the following petition, from 4.20pm – 4.30pm.

    http://www.parliament.nz/en-NZ/PB/Presented/Petitions/5/0/5/50DBHOH_PET3157_1-Petition-of-Penelope-Mary-Bright-requesting-that.htm

    Petition of Penelope Mary Bright

    Requesting that Parliament declines to proceed with the Housing Accords and Special Housing Areas Bill until the lawfulness of the reliance of Auckland Council on the New Zealand Department of Statistics”high”population growth projections, instead of their “medium” population growth projections for the Auckland Spatial Plan, has been properly and independently investigated, taking into consideration that both Auckland Transport and Watercare Services Ltd, have relied upon “medium” population growth projections for their infrastructural asset management plans.

    Petition number: 2011/64
    Presented by: Holly Walker
    Date presented: 30 May 2013
    Referred to: Social Services Committee
    _________________________________________________________

    MORE BACKGROUND INFORMATION:

    http://www.occupyaucklandvsaucklandcouncilappeal.org.nz/?page_id=137

    Penny Bright

    2013 Auckland Mayoral candidate

  8. xtasy 9

    Wow, I have listened to Kim Hill interviewing John Key, the PM just about over an hour ago, and what a breath of fresh air is she bringing to Morning Report on Radio NZ National!

    I have not heard any journalist putting the hard questions to any politician like this for bloody years! It is impressive and revealing at the same time. It shows that most journalist and reporters out there are pathetic in their job these days, not up to it, or not interested in asking a Prime Minister or lesser ministers or other politicians the questions that deserve to be asked:

    http://www.radionz.co.nz/national/programmes/morningreport/audio/2558021/john-key-responds-to-claims-from-winston-peters

    Check it out yourselves! This shows what a dodgy and insincere person John Key is, he is also presenting himself as a rather whimpish, weak PM now, and listening to his unconvincing answers to some question, it is clear, his days are numbered. Yes, Key is on his way out! He does not sound like he is much interested in doing a proper job and holding his ministers or support party “leaders” to account.

    A laissez fair propagator displaying a very laissez faire attitude, letting Dunne off the hook too early and being short of answers. Key is showing to be a rather irresponsible, slack leader, who only acts resolutely and ruthlessly when rarely re-arranging cabinet or biting, shouting at and abusing disliked opposition members and leaders.

    He may have been the smiling assassin in his business days, but hey, he does not sound like one as PM at present. Maybe it is all getting too much for him?

    This is a must listen item! It could prove to be historic!

    • xtasy 9.1

      Again no edit allowed, why? I just tried to correct a grammar mistake and add a few words, but not authorised to edit with 4 minutes still left? Something seems wrong with the edit function at times.

    • Chrissy 9.2

      Xtasy
      What a shame it wasn’t a televised interview.Would have been compulsive viewing..He must be nuts to think he could talk/walk all over Kim Hill.

    • johnm 9.3

      Hi Xtasy
      The current shower intend to copy the Tory Toffs in the U$K in the persecution of hapless bennies. here’s a link for you to follow what’s going on there and could come here! 🙂 🙁

      http://johnnyvoid.wordpress.com/

      • xtasy 9.3.1

        Thanks johnm!

        Yes, it is disgusting, and it is clear, it is the increasing divide between a small lot at the top raking in millions or in some cases billions, and more and more slipping down the income ladder, which causes injustice.

        But by using such tactics, the tories use undermining tactics to keep enough lulled into the belief, that it is the beneficiaries that are the problem. It is a major diversion tactic.

        By the way, as I was told, Housing NZ tenants do already get statements sent regularly, telling them what the “market rental cost” is for the property they live in, and I believe one also told me he got the valuation (based on the Council’s valuation, or even market valuation) sent in it.

        So Housing NZ are already “reminding” their tenants, how “much” they are being “subsidised” and thus supposedly “privileged” to suck of the states’ teats!

        It is already underway there, and with the “investment approach” on welfare now to become the norm, I suspect that IRD will eventually send out information on how much tax payers subsidise WINZ and their “clients” for.

        So that all shows, a third term of this lot must be stopped, absolutely! And Labour must be sent the message where NOT to go!

  9. Maui 10

    .. is the mp3 downloadable ?

  10. Colonial Viper 11

    29 year old NSA employee outs himself to media as Prism leaker

    If you’re interested in the deteriorating balance between civil rights, democracy and the surveillance state, read this.

    Conspiracy theory becomes conspiracy fact yet again.

    http://www.zerohedge.com/news/2013-06-09/nsa-whistleblower-reveals-himself

    • vto 11.1

      “Conspiracy theory becomes conspiracy fact yet again”

      No. Surely that cannot be right.

      You mean JFK was not actually shot by a lone gunman? That is was……. somebodies else? …….. but what would this mean?

    • vto 11.2

      “Conspiracy theory becomes conspiracy fact yet again”

      What this means undeniably of course, is that all statements from all authorities must be treated as lies and distortion as a default starting point. … a bit like conspiracy theories actually ……

    • What I am still trying to get my head around is that if the GCSB is able to get hold of my metadata will they then whisk it off to the US so that the NSA can add it to their accumulated data. Are we witnessing the growth of one big world wide metadatabase?

      Should we be concerned?

      Clare Curran has (ahem) also raised concerns …

      http://blog.labour.org.nz/2013/06/09/too-close-for-comfort-is-the-gcsb-spying-on-us/

      • McFlock 11.3.1

        I always thought that the entire idea of Echelon was so that “allied” intelligence agencies could spy on other members’ citizens for each other and kick back useful data from an “undisclosed source”.

        That and act as a permanent data suck for the US, of course.

      • UglyTruth 11.3.2

        Try EMC Israel for data warehousing.
        It fits the 9/11 Israel espionage event fairly well.

    • ghostrider888 11.4

      holed up in a Hong Kong hotel, awaiting rendition to Gitmo.

    • Populuxe1 11.5

      More like the IT guy has a narcissistic personality disorder and fantasies of being James Bond, seeks international media martyrdom, and flees to – of all places – Hong Kong.

      • Colonial Viper 11.5.1

        He knows what he’s doing, mate. He’s been in this game for almost 10 years now. You on the other hand, have no idea.

        • Populuxe1 11.5.1.1

          That’s a bit of a switch from when you used to accuse me of being a CIA agent, CV. But the fact of the matter is he’s a desk jockey of 10 years, not an actual operative, and that famous interview is full of alot of “I” and “me” and “my”.

          • Pascal's bookie 11.5.1.1.1

            Did someone say he was ‘an operative’? And what would that mean in relation to what we are talking about anyway? Why would it matter?

            Did Daniel Ellsberg being a ‘desk jockey’ change anything about what he did?

            And why is it tellling that an interview explaining his motives for leaking what he leaked contained “I”, “me”, and “my” statements?

            What is your point, exactly?

            • Populuxe1 11.5.1.1.1.1

              Simply that it all adds up to a picture of him not being very credible or really that much of a spy. More likely this 29 year old high school and community college drop out and army wash out is working for another power. Oh look, Hong Kong….

              • Pascal's bookie

                Show your working. It doesn’t add up at all. There are lots of people in IT with few formal academic quals.

                It’s ‘more likely’ that he is working for China than what? That he is a whistleblower?

                And who said he was a ‘spy’?

                • Colonial Viper

                  There are lots of people in IT with few formal academic quals.

                  Some small names like Larry Ellison, Steve Jobs and Bill Gates might agree.

                  Basically P1 is pretending that Snowden’s “credibility” is an issue. The simple fact of the matter is: Snowden has delivered the goods, they are real and verifiable, and even the NSA and senior Congressmen agree.

                  P1 on the other hand…is just bitching about bullshit.

                  More likely this 29 year old high school and community college drop out and army wash out is working for another power.

                  lolz, sounds like envy just because P1 can’t score a US$200K pa job with Booz Allen Hamilton because he’s not up to it, but a 29 year old high school and community college drop out and army wash out can.

                  Don’t fret P1, you’re not that shit that you can’t complete with Mr Snowden-Dropout-Washout!

                  • Populuxe1

                    Ah, another demonstration of CV’s preternatural ability to psychoanalyse quasi-fictional personae at a distance by means of the the internet. How droll.

                    • Colonial Viper

                      So you admit that your bringing up of Snowden being a dropout and a washout was an irrelevant distraction then?

                • lprent

                  Show your working. It doesn’t add up at all. There are lots of people in IT with few formal academic quals

                  Yep. It is as much of a personality talent as exercise in knowledge. Some of the most knowing IT people I have known have had little more than a burning desire to be good at whatever they obsessed on.

                  Even more (like me) have few formal qualifications in anything IT related. My main academic quals are in earth sciences and management, with a smattering of mostly 3rd year comp sci tacked on after I’d already been working the field for years (deadly boring papers).

                  The numbers of people qualified in comp sci or business computing who continue to be active in actual IT after a decade or two are pretty minimal. They move off into management or business analysis. The field is full of people who just like doing it and who (like me) resist attempts to move them out of the hands-on IT.

                  • Tim

                    It’s an interesting phenomenon yes?
                    In my experience, the best IT ‘professionals’ (specifically those that cut code, and who over time come to despise – or are at least cynical of – all those BS middle and snr management BS artists who shove their cost-accounting oars in at the most inappropriate of times, shove their ‘expertise’ in whilst projects are midway through, etc., etc.), are usually those that have ‘outside interests in the creative arts, or who have some sort of outlet completely divorced from ‘nerdism’.
                    I find it interesting that you moved from ‘management’ towards the more technical.
                    I shudda cudda wudda perhaps, but instead I opted for something TOTALLY divorced from IT/ITC – whatever other buzz acronym is in vogue these days. (Show me a Systems Development Life Cycle – I’ll show you Synchronous Data Link Control).

                    Jim (the sage) Mora has a guest on now – banging on about how small/NZ IT professionals aren’t getting a look in (AND THEY AREN’T). With all due deference to the impending IRD redevelopment. The small/ the NZ are of course completely correct – they’ve been consulted/middle & senior managed out of any sort of ‘look in’.

                    Fark!!! $1.5 Billion – I’d guarantee the govt and IRD success on pain of DEATH ffs!. In fact if I failed – I’d get my own son to pull the frikken trigger!

                    There are Joyce-like ilk who have a shit load to answer for

                    • lprent

                      Yeah. From what I understand the existing systems are mostly cobol at the core with some wacking great big databases.

                      I mostly code highly threaded optimized c++ server style apps for tight spaces (sometimes tight hardware, sometimes massively multi-user) often with Qt/MFC and/or web front faces and/or anything else and just about any kind of data backend from old serial RS232 to wacking big databases or encrypted pipes over the net. And it keeps getting more technical the longer I stay learning because some of the older tech is still useful and keep showing up in newer tech. For instance I was surprised as hell to find stuff that I learnt back in the 80’s for doing EGA graphics screens works pretty damn well for frame buffered embedded devices.

                      But I avoid corporate because they never seem to manage to finish anything before some dumbarse does the new broom trick with assorted buzzwords (Telecom comes to mind) or some jerkoff “analyst” promises the customer stage 3 in stage 1 causing the inevitable stage 0 project collapse (INCIS comes to mind).

                      I’m afraid that I tend to agree with the IRD on this. The local IT corporate management tends to be a bit pisspoor and sloppy for anything that is system critical development. Hardly surprising when you look at the beaten down wrecks toiling with their heads low for the wage.

                      The problem is that the government doesn’t exactly have many people who could oversee a project at a sufficient technical depth (ie they don’t really know what their own systems really do now). So they’ll wind up spending far too much on overseas contracts and fail to bring in enough local companies on relatively minor segments to get them ready for the maintenance phases. Nett effect is that the system will be clumsy, stiff, and rigid and horrendously expensive to redevelop in the future.

                      Needless to say I will be avoiding the IRD project like the plague even if there were any bits of interest in there.

        • Populuxe1 11.5.1.2

          Also he’s 29. Are you saying he was an agent at age 19 having never even finished high school?

          • Pascal's bookie 11.5.1.2.1

            No one said he was any sort of ‘agent’.

            I ask again, what do you mean by that in relation to the areas he has been working in?

  11. Sanctuary 12

    And the Sophie Scholl award for 2013 for extraordinary resistance surely goes to Edward Snowden.

    “…I will be satisfied if the federation of secret law, unequal pardon and irresistible executive powers that rule the world that I love are revealed even for an instant.” The quote from the Guardian that ensures historians will forever remember him alongside the likes of Benjamin Franklin as a hero of liberty.

    http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2013/jun/09/edward-snowden-nsa-whistleblower-surveillance

    • Colonial Viper 12.1

      Over the next month they are going to vilify the poor bastard through every media channel and he knows it.

    • Populuxe1 12.2

      Um, no – Sophie Scholl was beheaded for holding to her simple truths. Snowden is a computer geek playing secret agent man from the safety of Chinese territory. Please don’t compare them – it makes me nauseous.

      • Colonial Viper 12.2.1

        The state of your gut is rather irrelevant to the state of the union.

        • Populuxe1 12.2.1.1

          You should write a novel. Preferably from a Hong Kong hotel with a well-stocked mini bar

      • Morrissey 12.2.2

        Snowden is a computer geek….

        Ha! Not even one day since the revelation, and he’s parroting the official line of denigration.

        Make no mistake: Populuxe1 would have condemned Sophie Scholl with the same sneering malice that he uses for her modern equivalents.

        • Populuxe1 12.2.2.1

          Given I have made pilgrmage to Geschwister-Scholl-Platz in Munich, I somehow doubt that, you ridiculous pustulating fistula on the anus of humanity

          • McFlock 12.2.2.1.1

            I admire your use of language 🙂

          • Morrissey 12.2.2.1.2

            Given I have made pilgrmage to Geschwister-Scholl-Platz in Munich…

            That settles it, of course. You’re a real champion of the dissenter.

            Really you are.

            • Populuxe1 12.2.2.1.2.1

              Bovvered?

              • I’m not sure why you seem to be.

                If I had leaked the sort of information he had I also would probably look for refuge under the umbrella of the most powerful ‘countervailing force’ on the planet. The US has shown repeatedly that the one country it is unable to push around is China – for obvious reasons.

                And, in fact, that is the reason given:

                He chose the city because “they have a spirited commitment to free speech and the right of political dissent”, and because he believed that it was one of the few places in the world that both could and would resist the dictates of the US government.

                The decision to hole up in Hong Kong therefore seems very rational – especially given that Hong Kong remains quite westernised and so is the part of China that would likely be most amenable (and welcoming?) to an American. It was also quite close to Hawaii.

                You seem to be implying that he is part of a (Chinese?) conspiracy to make wrongful allegations against the NSA (why else would you talk about his lack of credibility – i.e., believability) – despite him having provided the documents. And despite Obama appearing to acknowledge that “these programmes” do, indeed, exist.

  12. Yorick 13

    Welcome back Kim ! Your country needs you to keep mediocrity at bay in these ‘interesting’ times.

  13. Belladonna 14

    Kim is wonderful but how would Shearer go if he was on the receiving end of one of her tough interviews, too scary to contemplate.

  14. Tim 15

    Wyndham is correct! http://thestandard.org.nz/open-mike-10062013/#comment-646204 above .

    “– – – – and let’s give her support when the right-wing vultures descend on her. And they will”

    Watch ‘the right’ try and spin Kim Hill’s interview with Key this morning.
    Mummy mummy Radio NZ is being mean to me!

    I expect it to begin around 1105AM today on Radio NZ if it hasn’t already elsewhere.

    • xtasy 15.1

      Yep, it will be titled like “red flag raised above Radio New Zealand National studios”, the bolsheviks have seized control of our media, or something similar, I suspect.

      Time to have a word with RNZ’s CEO, he will advise John Key, about staffing matters.

      • Tim 15.1.1

        I was wrong X (although he probably did a brief scan of TS this morning and realised Kim Hill has the respect of folk ACROSS the political spectrum). Instead, Mathew’s little hissy fit this morning was directed at Helen Kelley. It even seemed to embarrass Rinnie Ryan (though Mike Williams remained silent), and her calls to Mathew to repent met with defiance. Any Hail Mary’s were nowhere in sight. As predicted though, Mike was there as usual to clip the ticket and give a plug for the Ghost of Paul Holmes. What sages – the pair of them – the THREE of them in fact. I am in awe!

        • xtasy 15.1.1.1

          Tim – I suspect they (all three) meet for a social afternoon tea together, at least one afternoon per week, having a great chattering time.

    • Morrissey 15.2

      National Party mastermind Steven Joyce almost always refuses to let Key go on Morning Report—when it’s only the avuncular (and weak) Geoff Robinson and the even weaker Simon Mercep.

      So why on EARTH would Joyce agree to let Key be interviewed by Kim Hill, who has eviscerated far sharper and far more powerful men than him?

      I suspect Joyce is manipulating the prime minister, and not in a caring way.

      • xtasy 15.2.1

        Perhaps Joyce was this morning still in bed, trying to revive himself slowly, with a terrible hangover, after a dreadful Friday afternoon and too much “medication” for stressed out nerves over all of the weekend?

      • Jimnald 15.2.2

        I have been boycotting RadioNZ because I felt the quality has dropped in recent years.

        Accidentally hit the bedside radio-clock on this morning and it was lovely to hear the PM being interviewed by Kim Hill.

        I am a real fan of the PM now and reckon he should really give it back to Kim Hill next time 🙂

        • xtasy 15.2.2.1

          National Radio certainly delivered better programming prior to the Key government taking over the reign and placing some new personalities on the board and amongst staff.

          Publicly funded broadcasting simply is not a priority for this lot.

          But I am sure you do prefer Radio Live or 1ZB for early morning “stimulation” anyway, so you do not forget what to put on your daily shopping list.

  15. xtasy 16

    I have absolutely revealing information now on Professor Mansel Aylward, director of the Centre for Psychosocial and Disability Research at Cardiff University, who has been one of the top “advisors” of Paula Bennett as Minister for Social Development, thus the government, and of the ‘Health and Disability Panel’ that is in charge of overseeing and assisting the implementation of the very radical, draconian, in part most likely illegal welfare changes in decades here in New Zealand.

    Under the ‘Social Security (Benefit Categories and Work Focus) Amendment Act’ sickness beneficiaries will as of 15 July be turned into “jobseekers” (some with deferred status for work testing and work ability), and invalid’s beneficiaries (and some others caring for infirm) will come into the category called Supported Living Payment.

    ALL will at some stage face work capacity assessments, which will be at the discretion of the Chief Executive of MSD And WINZ, thus can be repeated as they see fit, and the assessments will be designed along the ones already used by the Department of Work and Pension in the UK for years. The assessments have in part been developed with the involvement of Mansel Aylward and others, who has for his research had financial assistance by controversial private US insurance giant Unum, who changed their name repeatedly after having lost major court battles in the US about their handling of claims.

    Now insiders know how bizarre and apparently controversial Professor Aylward’s interpretation of the so-called “bio psycho social model” for assessment and treatment of sick, disabled and incapacitated persons is, and how he has served UK governments and been involved in declaring many disabled and seriously ill as “fit for work”, while in fact they were not. Some indeed are known to have committed suicide due to not being able to handle pressures and facing loss of benefits.

    While Aylward, a so-called “Sir” now, and also a “Dame” Carol Black are known propagators of pushing resolutely for getting sick into work, as they see the “benefits of work” being kind of the best medicine, a post on ACC Forum has just revealed to me that Aylward is nothing but a strong adherent of “pseudo sciences” of his own inventions. He claims that most that insist on having mental health conditions and physical health issues are merely suffering from “illness belief”.

    He seems to be keen on serving government agencies and employers to save costs, by pushing sick and disabled to become tax paying workers, to avoid the economic costs of “worklessness”, but at the same time he has also hit out at people sticking around their work places longer than may seem necessary, thus creating additional costs in overtime, while just engaging in what he calls “presenteism”.

    Have a read of the following:

    “‘Presenteeism’ culture of long hours sweeps Welsh offices – an article in Wales Online from 24 April 2008”:

    http://www.walesonline.co.uk/news/wales-news/presenteeism-culture-long-hours-sweeps-2185349

    That man is a true danger in himself, being such a self-serving “scientist” with his own “inventions” of conditions, be this “illness belief” or “presenteism”. Is this for real, or is this a “nut case” of a “medical expert”, formerly even Chief Medical Officer for the DWP, now having major influence on how sick and disabled beneficiaries are going to be treated in New Zealand?!

    He has had a major meeting with Paula Bennett last year, and appears to continue influencing her and senior MSD decision makers!

  16. ghostrider888 17

    just watched Matthew Hooten spinning for the Tories on Firstline; his “patriotic” advice that “Dunne should remain in Parliament, and let the government finish it’s 18 months (for the economy)” you understand, for the economy.

    freakin’ Tories are Running Scared.

    • Colonial Viper 17.1

      Our sovereign economy depends on Peter Dunne? Yeah, right.

      • ghostrider888 17.1.1

        reading this thread, and watching the MSM, what other conclusion can one draw other than NAct, their backers and flunkies are shitting bricks; they do not want a by-election in Oh-who-rea.

    • Morrissey 17.2

      You should know that “Matthew Hooton, Nats’ spin doctor” is an anagram of….

      “Satanist; not topnotch whoredom.”

  17. Belladonna 18

    You are doing great work for beneficiaries Xstasy, keep up the good job.

  18. Morrissey 19

    ANAGRAM TIME
    No. 2: Peters stymies Dunne’s legover

    Dottiness revenges supremely.

    See also….
    No. 1: John and Bronwyn Key ===> Now handy, bonny jerk.

  19. Morrissey 20

    ANAGRAM TIME
    No. 3: Te Reo Putake, activist blogger

    Brave, goatlike, cutest ego-trip.

    • ghostrider888 20.1

      do ghostrider with/ and/ or Rogue Trooper; play nice, seeing as you omitted the rider from that ‘media awards’ evening, and I had washed my best Nirvana tee-shirt and everything.

      • Morrissey 20.1.1

        ghostrider not wanted at party

        anagrammizes to….

        Witty, transparent hatred—good!

    • Lanthanide 20.2

      🙄

      This is literally the thing I did and found funny when I was 12.

      • Morrissey 20.2.1

        “Lanthanide: Christchurch’s finest”

        becomes….

        Sluttish arch-fiend enchants rich.

        • Lanthanide 20.2.1.1

          Oh, you got me. Good one.

          • McFlock 20.2.1.1.1

            you’ll just encourage him. He’s oblivious to sarcasm.

            • Morrissey 20.2.1.1.1.1

              you’ll just encourage him. He’s oblivious to sarcasm.

              Really? You think so?

              If you don’t like our little sortie into anagram fun, why don’t you come out and say it, rather than posting sour little jibes that (as usual) fail to register?

              • McFlock

                because it didn’t work when lanth did it?

                • Morrissey

                  because it didn’t work when lanth did it?

                  So now you are the arbiter of what’s funny, are you?

                  I would trust your judgement on that about as much as I’d trust Gordon MacLauchlan’s or Tom Frewen’s.

                  Or Colin Craig’s.

                  • McFlock

                    No.

                    You asked me why I didn’t make a more direct criticism of your infantile (and probably computer-assisted) “anagram fun”. The answer is “because it didn’t work when lanth did it”.

                    • Morrissey

                      You asked me why I didn’t make a more direct criticism of your infantile

                      “Infantile”? Well, fu—–, ah, yes, I guess you’re right.

                      (and probably computer-assisted) “anagram fun”.

                      Dammit! You got me! How the hell did you work out that it was computer-assisted?

                    • McFlock

                      Some people find more fun in actually developing the anagrams themselves, rather than pressing “enter” until something tickles their fancy.

                    • Te Reo Putake

                      “Dammit! You got me!”

                      Anagramatic translation: Me Is Sorry!

              • prism

                Morrissey
                Do me. Do me! prism in Nelson, south island.

                • Morrissey

                  Morrissey
                  Do me. Do me! prism in Nelson, south island.

                  “Our good friend prism of Nelson—begging for it”

                  renders down into….

                  Boggles in front of do-gooder—run if simpering!

      • prism 20.2.2

        It’s good if we can keep our brains as active as when we were 12, with some mature input added. I think that brain maturity reaches its height at 25, so let’s keep trying to limit the decline I say.

        • ghostrider888 20.2.2.1

          Too late for some…

        • Morrissey 20.2.2.2

          Thanks for the kind words, my friend. I guess you already know that “prism, a Standard regular” renders down into….

          Retards snarl up diagram.

          • prism 20.2.2.2.1

            Morrisey Hey I’ve begged to get done over further down the thread, and here you are ahead of me. I’ll treasure it like pollies treasure cartoons.

  20. Morrissey 21

    LIARS OF OUR TIME
    No. 19: Matthew Hooton

    “It is ridiculous to say that unions deliver higher wages! They don’t!”

    —-Matthew Hooton, Radio NZ National, Monday 10 June 2013

    Mike Williams, supposed to be “from the Left”, sat meekly through that rant and then, meekly, went out of his way to agree with him.

    See also….
    No. 18: Ant Strachan: “The All Blacks won the RWC 2011 because of outstanding defence!”
    No. 17: Stephen Franks: “Peter has been such a level-headed, safe pair of hands.”
    No. 16: Phil Kafcaloudes: “Tony Abbott…hasn’t made any mistakes over the past eighteen months”
    No. 15: Donald Rumsfeld: “I did not lie… Colin Powell did not lie.”
    No. 14: Colin Powell: “a post-9/11 nexus between Iraq and terrorist organizations…connections are now emerging…”
    No.13: Barack Obama: “Simply put, these strikes have saved lives.”

    Open mike 27/05/2013


    No. 12: U.K. Ministry of Defence: “Protecting the Afghan civilian population is one of ISAF and the UK’s top priorities.”
    No. 11: Brendan O’Connor: “Australia’s approach to refugees is compassionate and generous.”
    No. 10: Boris Johnson: “Londoners have… the best police in the world to look after us and keep us safe.”
    No. 9: NewstalkZB PR dept: “News you NEED! Fast, fair, accurate!”
    No. 8: Simon Bridges: “I don’t mean to duck the question”
    No. 7: Nigel Morrison: “Quite frankly, they’ve been VERY tough.”
    
http://thestandard.org.nz/open-mike-15052013/#comment-633295
    
No. 6: NZ Herald PR dept: “Congratulations—you’re reading New Zealand’s best newspaper.”

    
No. 5: Rawdon Christie: “…a FORMIDABLE replacement, it seems, is Claudette Hauiti.”
http://thestandard.org.nz/open-mike-13052013/#comment-632594

    No. 4: Willie and J.T.: “The X-Factor. Nah, nah, there’s some GREAT talent there!”

    No. 3: John Key: “Yeah we hold MPs to a higher standard.”
    
No. 2: Colin Craig: “Oh, I have a GREAT sense of humour.”
    
No. 1: Barack Obama: “Margaret Thatcher was one of the great champions of freedom and liberty.”

    • Rhinocrates 21.1

      Considering what comes out of Hooton’s mouth, he must eat through his arse.

      Whoops, are children reading this?

      • Morrissey 21.1.1

        Hooton is an ass, an utter ass. But the real problem here is Mike Williams. He is useless.

        Why don’t they have someone principled and coherent to oppose Hooton? What has happened to Andrew Campbell? Or Laila Harre? Or Sue Bradford? Each of those people firmly put Hooton in his place; Williams on the other hand, like the timid Peter Harris and the dithering Josie Pagani, just concedes the floor to Hooton—almost every time.

        • Rhinocrates 21.1.1.1

          Yep, it’s half an hour of squelchy sounds between Hoots and Williams. The host says “withdraw and apologise”, Wormtongue says “nope” and she lets it go. I appreciate that Ryan has principles, but she needs a backbone too.

          Listening to Kim Hill has been a delight.

          • freedom 21.1.1.1.1

            The great difference has been that after asking a question, Kim Hill actually listens for the response and then accommodates the answer into the discussion. Thus reminding people that interviews are meant to extract information. Something almost every other media journalist in the country seems to have forgotten.

        • Paul 21.1.1.2

          That’s why he’s invited. The token left, like Newstalk ZB with Josie Pagani.
          Fox TV did it with Hannity ( deranged right winger) and Colmes ( ineffectual left wing stooge)
          Then they can pretend they are ‘fair and balanced’ (Fox) or see both sides of the story (Newstalk ZB).

        • prism 21.1.1.3

          Yes got to like Laila a lot.

          and Rhinocrates Kathryn I think feels like an animal wrangler with scrapping dogs. She has to let them speak – that’s what they are there for.

  21. Morrissey 22

    ANAGRAM TIME
    No. 4: Peter Dunne’s legover thwarted

    Down-hearted splutter. Revenge!

  22. Ad 23

    How many days before the Obama-surveillance stories start to connect with the GCSB stories here?

    While we wait, here’s a preview of a relevant movie about the growth of the surveillance state and its consequenes both for liberty and for the United States globally:

    http://www.salon.com/2013/06/09/obamas_dirty_wars_and_a_soiled_presidency/

  23. prism 24

    Good news. Someone was claiming that housing was unaffordable for ordinary people in NZ and that was wrong. Then there was a plan to change this with the finger being pointed at the lack of available land because it was being tied up by ‘unreasonable’ councils.

    Then I found that these thoughtful comments were being made by NZ Initiative, a branch of the Business Roundtable and were authored by Luke Malpass and Michael Bassett. What a surprise. What they care about is that a good reliable money earner for them is being stymied and that will not do.
    Also involved are – AuthorDr Bryce WilkinsonSatyajit DasDr Oliver HartwichLuke MalpassRoger PartridgeDr John LeeCatherine HarlandLukas SchroeterJoseph JuddRachael
    http://nzinitiative.org.nz/About+Us/Membership.html

    The recent comments carried forward those made by the Productivity Commission in April 2012.
    http://www.productivity.govt.nz/about-us/our-team-0
    http://www.productivity.govt.nz/inquiry-content/1509?stage=4
    Containment policies such as ‘Smart Growth’ and Auckland’s Metropolitan Urban Limit (MUL) were also found by the Commission to have an adverse effect on housing affordability by limiting the availability of land for housing.
    “Pressure on land prices needs to be reduced and the Commission has recommended that there be an immediate release of new land for residential development in high demand areas such as Auckland and Christchurch”.

    Does their self-interest meet the housing needs of NZs? What other means are available of stopping housing being an investment vehicle for everyone who doesn’t want to or can’t find employment
    within other parts of the economy?

    We have as many housing speculators it seems, as cats have fleas, feeding off us and forcing up the prices of housing, which they can then rent at a loss while they wait for inflation of housing, not measured by the CPI to rise and make them a capital profit. And with very little maintenance to keep the places liveable.

    • ianmac 24.1

      Hey PRISM. Are the fella who has been accessing and filing the World Internet for the USA?

      • prism 24.1.1

        ianmac Who me? There is no such thing as prism – just a bunch of coloured lights.

  24. Morrissey 25

    Another True American Hero Emerges
    Edward Snowden will now be targeted by the US/UK defamation machine

    Question: Will Populuxe1, McFlock, and the other Standard regulars who so perversely reiterated the official attacks on earlier whistleblowers now be grinding their axes to deal to this guy?….

    http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/video/2013/jun/09/nsa-whistleblower-edward-snowden-interview-video

    Since you’re active on the board right now, it might be a good time to tell us, McFlock. What is it to be: defending the whistleblower?

    Or the usual?

    • McFlock 25.1

      From the initial face of it, he appears to be a genuine whistle-blower who was motivated by a genuine ethical quandary rather than ego, and who restricted his information distribution to information relating to the cause of his moral dilemma. In full knowledge of the significant personal sacrifice he would make.

      Oh, and he seems to be sensible enough to avoid a sexual assault complaint.

      Perfectly willing to change my mind if the facts change, though.

      Moderately intrigued by his choice of Hong Kong, but what the hey. I suppose he’s betting that a US intelligence operation on Chinese soil might be more trouble than his scalp is worth.

      [edit] although it does put him in the position of being a bargaining chip if the Chinese want to spend some diplo-credits with the US in the next couple of decades, a la Ramirez in Yemen.

      • ghostrider888 25.1.1

        and you seemed in such a curmudgeonly mood such a short time ago.

      • Morrissey 25.1.2

        …. motivated by a genuine ethical quandary rather than ego…

        So it’s all about motivation, is it? You would have no doubt endorsed the German commentators who denounced Stauffenberg and his fellow bomb-plotters in 1944. Their “motivation” was suspect, too, seeing that they were all aristocrats—-and they were less than monkish in their sexual behaviour as well.

        If only everybody was as perfect as you no doubt are.

        Perfectly willing to change my mind if the facts change, though.

        You’re like a commissar awaiting instructions from Moscow. And to think that YOU were upbraiding ME for apparently not getting your friend’s sarcasm.

        • Rhinocrates 25.1.2.1

          McF is just another Tory who hasn’t come out of the closet yet. In the supposed interest of being “fair”, he’s making excuses for the right-wing authoritarians. You’ll find that he makes more and more excuses for them than he does for the real left and more and more criticisms of the left for being “unreasonable” and “not constructive”.

        • Te Reo Putake 25.1.2.2

          Godw … Nah, can’t be bothered.

          • weka 25.1.2.2.1

            ‘cept this time you were right 🙂

            • Morrissey 25.1.2.2.1.1

              ‘cept this time you were right.

              No he was not, you hapless clot.

          • Morrissey 25.1.2.2.2

            Godw … Nah, can’t be bothered.

            Godwin’s Law applies when the comparison is frivolous and can’t be argued convincingly. When I compare the behaviour of a “liberal” like McFlock to the behaviour of toadies in wartime Germany, I am not saying he was a Nazi, any more than I am saying he is a Soviet commissar by taking his lead from government spin doctors.

            Of course, you can erroneously invoke Godwin’s Law if you want; it’s your credibility that’s being exposed when you refuse to engage.

            • McFlock 25.1.2.2.2.1

              sigh.

              It wasn’t erroneous:

              As an online discussion grows longer, the probability of a comparison involving Nazis or Hitler approaches 1.

              As you put it: When I compare the behaviour of a “liberal” like McFlock to the behaviour of toadies in wartime Germany[…]
              You described your comment as a comparison with those chaps and thereby satisfying the requirements of Godwin’s law.

              You’re funny.

              • Morrissey

                You’re funny.

                I know I am. I work hard at it.

                However, I don’t think you’re particularly amused by—to employ one of John Banks’ favorite metaphors—having your wings torn off like this.

                • McFlock

                  Now I’m left with a new appreciation for the communication gulf that exists between people.

                  The proof-readers at work would approve of your use of the em-dash, though. I can never be bothered.

            • weka 25.1.2.2.2.2

              Wow, rewriting Godwin’s Law to suit yourself, now there’s a surprise.

              Godwin’s Law applies when someone makes an analogy comparing the person they are arguing with to N@zis etc, because they can no longer make a coherent argument. It doesn’t matter how sophisticated you think your argument is, if it’s hyperbole (which it was) then Godwin’s applies.

        • McFlock 25.1.2.3

          You might want to look up “sarcasm” in the dictionary.

          Don’t use rhino’s, though, because all the words in that edition have identical meanings.

          But yes, motivation does count.
          For example: “defending Naz1s” = “bad motivation”, so “being an arsehole” rather than “being a whistleblower”.
          Another example: “exposing an institutional abuse of liberties to the public who have a right to know” = “good motivation” = “whistleblower”.

      • Populuxe1 25.1.3

        Methinks a bored IT drone with a narcissisting personality dissorder wanting to play 007 more like

    • weka 25.2

      Is there any point to this little interchange (from 25 on)? Any?

      • Morrissey 25.2.1

        Is there any point to this little interchange (from 25 on)? Any?

        As your befuddled contribution at 25.1.2.2.1 shows all too plainly, you are clearly out of your depth.

        Yes, there IS a point to “this little interchange”, and it is a very important one. If you do not appreciate that, then you really need to get off the discussion boards and do some serious, sustained READING.

        • weka 25.2.1.1

          Classic non-answer from Morrisey to a rhetorical question lol.

          • Morrissey 25.2.1.1.1

            Classic non-answer from Morrisey to a rhetorical question lol.

            “Non-answer”? Not only did I refute your lamely inadequate attempt to trivialize this discussion, but I trussed you and served you as an amuse bouche before we moved onto bigger, nastier fare.

            • weka 25.2.1.1.1.1

              Nah, all you did was take your inference that there is something wrong with me, and wrap it up in some pseudo-clever language. Nothing of substance. As usual.

              • Morrissey

                Nah, all you did was take your inference that there is something wrong with me, and wrap it up in some pseudo-clever language. Nothing of substance. As usual.

                I don’t like to say this, my friend, but someone needs to: you are out of your depth.

  25. ghostrider888 26

    so the primary-sector exports (partic. sheep and beef) are gonna take a 1.3B hit in projected annual income due to the drought.

    “Well we come with what was on our backs
    Yeah, when the leaves had died and all turned black
    Back when the wind was cold and blew them ’round
    When we laid our blankets on the ground

    Anything I want, some of us are different
    It’s just something in our blood, there’s no need for explanations
    We’re just dogs on the run,

    Oh she would laugh, and light my cigarettes”.


    It Ain’t Nothing To Me.

  26. Winston Smith 27

    http://www.stuff.co.nz/national/politics/8776490/Attempts-to-get-reporters-emails-will-be-fought

    “Labour leader David Shearer wants Parliament’s privileges committee to probe the Peter Dunne saga as Fairfax Media says it won’t be releasing emails between its journalist and the MP.”

    Yes I agree the emails should be made public, of course in the interest of fairness theres some other emails I’d like to see released…Phil Goffs recent escapdes could prove interesting etc etc

    Seriously though whos advising Shearer? Someone who wants him to fail??

    • fender 27.1

      Failure is inevitable for Shearer unfortunately, or fortunately.

      He may be dim and unable to convey his thoughts (if they exist), but he will never be the complete asshole that John Key is.

      • prism 27.1.1

        I don’t know about that fender. I disliked Shearer’s condemning attitudes to beneficiaries, his unattractive willingness to join the put-downers. Under the exterior is there a left winger? Or just another RWNJ in drag? He might be just a different door but with the same keyhole.

        • fender 27.1.1.1

          Good point but I believe Key has a deep-seated hatred of beneficiaries whereas Shearer was saying what some (Pagani?) adviser told him to say. That doesn’t excuse Shearer from his error, just highlights his inexperience and naivety.

          • Anne 27.1.1.1.1

            +1 fender.
            When he (only) had certain members of the ABC club advising him then it was inevitable he would put a few feet wrong. I think (I hope) he’s widened his advisory horizons now.

          • prism 27.1.1.1.2

            fender
            Does that mean Shearer is just a hand puppet or ventriloquist’s dummy? Not a nice mental picture of someone’s hand up his back bumps.

            • fender 27.1.1.1.2.1

              Yeah it seems that way, the abc team picked a malleable rookie they could make dance to their tune, missteps and all!

              Bad pictures have been more than mental ones!

              • logie97

                Anyone remember the “Citizens for Rowling” campaign. It was initiated by a David Exel? He was, in fact, a rejected National Party candidate but he had a dislike for Muldoon and set up the aforementioned campaign. Went to hear him speak at a public meeting in Takapuna and he spouted all the things that a pseudo left winger would say. It was comical really. Shame though because he had a lot of good liberal minds signed up. Mmmm, now am I experiencing a form of deja-vu

  27. prism 28

    If you haven’t looked at google today – I suggest you take a shifty at the great program they’ve done displaying Maurice Sendak’s art and characters. Remember it’s only on for the day.

    • freedom 28.1

      thanks prism, that was fun,
      here is a video of it for the fans, with not the worst soundtrack ever

      • prism 28.1.1

        freedom
        Where was that video?

        • weka 28.1.1.1

          There are heaps of copies on youtube. Try this one (although I prefer to watch it on google.com). Beautiful animation.

          • prism 28.1.1.1.1

            Thanks weka
            But I have to find out what Adobe Flash is and get it into my computer and my head. Till then I can’t see a lot of things on youtube.

            On googlecom where to go – images? I haven’t used that site.

  28. ghostrider888 29

    so much for Ryall and “ED waiting times”
    http://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/news/article.cfm?c_id=1&objectid=10889483
    further increases in consumption; takeaways; credit cards at twice the rate of debit cards.sigh
    http://www.nzherald.co.nz/business/news/article.cfm?c_id=3&objectid=10889568
    Employers wincing out on Kiwisaver contributions
    http://www.nzherald.co.nz/business/news/article.cfm?c_id=3&objectid=10889444

    “Oh Good Morning Mr Tyler, going down?
    http://www.nzherald.co.nz/lifestyle/news/article.cfm?c_id=6&objectid=10889461

  29. Te Reo Putake 30

    Quote of the Day from Pooter George:

    “If Peters can’t put up any evidence one must assume he has been lying about having it.”

    What he might have said is “If Dunne can’t put up any evidence of his innocence one must assume he has been lying about having it.” But he didn’t. Funny that.

    • fender 30.1

      I always thought PG was first to bed so he could be first up to post on Open mike, but it looks like he will be the last to leave Dunnes’ party.

      • Te Reo Putake 30.1.1

        Last to leave? If UF do manage to get 500 paid up members, I’m picking a fair percentage of the names will be along the lines of Pete R. George, George Peters, PG Tips etc., so you may be right.

      • prism 30.1.2

        fender 😀

  30. ghostrider888 31

    oooh, NATO under attack near Kabul airport
    http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2013/jun/10/kabul-airport-under-attack

    oooh, Oil in the River Coca
    http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-latin-america-22836975
    heading towards the Brazilian Amazon.

    The Middle East; Inter-Sunni, Sunni-Shia and “political entrepreneurs”.
    http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2013/jun/08/middle-east-full-blown-religious-war
    (another US foreign policy balls-up).

  31. ghostrider888 32

    DROUGHT: The most devastating disasters; all over the world in increasing frequency and location from now on.
    http://reliefweb.int/report/world/droughts-%E2%80%98most-devastating%E2%80%99-disasters-set-increase-warn-climate-change-experts
    “every 1 degree rise in temp = 20-fold increase in conflicts”.
    Water and land conservation essential, oh, that’s right, NZ has based it’s economic future in dairying which is land and water intensive. Yep.

    • McFlock 32.1

      I often wonder if cantabs, for example, should be growing olives and dates rather than cows. That’s if the standard grain crops don’t rock their world, of course.

      • King Kong 32.1.1

        Lets model ourselves on Greece.

        • McFlock 32.1.1.1

          Nope.

          But let’s learn from their successes, as well as their mistakes. Producing food is good, especially in times of food shortage. But running the land down and filling out waterways with shit is stupid. Can we do the first without doing the second or third?

        • prism 32.1.1.2

          How would you get on there. Do they have gorillas, or is it guerillas.

      • ghostrider888 32.1.2

        they already grow a lot of cereal there.
        RNZ just advises that the Morehu chap (RW having orgasms over it on WOBH) was Tazered twice before being shot twice. deep sigh.

      • vto 32.1.3

        “I often wonder if cantabs, for example, should be growing olives and dates rather than cows.”

        Of course the most productive use of land (measured by how many families the land sustains) is horticultural.

        New Zealand has moved from a hunter-gatherer approach (still seen today in various ancient fed farmer cultures) to an animals which eat the regrowth approach, and thence now slowly to this most productive form. There is no doubt that the water which has been stolen to wet the dry land for moo cows will instead quench plants of most exquisite return and flavour.

        This is as it has always been.

        • weka 32.1.3.1

          yep. Polycultures (with animals integrated into the system) are the most shock proof ways of growing food. That’s a different kete of fish than making money of course. Time to decide what you want NZ.

    • prism 32.2

      And NZ given 35 year concessions on irrigation which I think renewable. And the rights saleable.

  32. Morrissey 34

    “Holed up in Hong Kong”
    The project to criminalize whistle-blowing and dissent

    Radio NZ National, Checkpoint, Monday 10 June 2013, 5:20 p.m.

    Just heard Susie Ferguson parrot the line that Edward Snowden is “holed up” in Hong Kong. She was, perhaps unwittingly, referring to yet another dissenter as though he’s some desperado who pulled a bank heist.

    It’s started. Expect sexual allegations in the next week, and a “request” for extradition.

    Expect also some diligent reiteration in this normally excellent forum of whatever Obama’s drones say.

    By the usual parrots.

    UPDATE:

    Suzy Ferguson has just repeated the “holed up” meme on the 5:30 news.

    • Colonial Viper 34.1

      He’s going to have taken money from his employer, I predict revelations of false expense claims and other employment irregularities

      Also I feel sorry for the Missus he left behind, she’s she’ll be in shit street solitary, they’ll be trawling all through her + family’s background

    • Morrissey 34.2

      FURTHER UPDATE:

      On the 8 p.m. news, Catriona McLeod has just repeated the meme: “Edward Snowden is holed up in Hong Kong.”

      • McFlock 34.2.1

        Damn – did they not rewrite the RNZ news script despite your helpful advice?

        • Morrissey 34.2.1.1

          Damn – did they not rewrite the RNZ news script despite your helpful advice?

          Golly, you’re onto it! I DID send them a hurry-up at 5:30 pm. Sound intuition there, my friend. I haven’t checked my email yet; I’ll let you know if and what they replied.

          8:14 pm

          Just checked my email. You’re right, she treated it with contempt. Not even a snarky one-liner, as Jim Mora or Michael Laws or Leighton Smith will at least bother to do.

          Nothing. I am so lonely now. Ignored. Marginalized.

          Now what’s on down the tavern tonight?

          • McFlock 34.2.1.1.1

            Was that sarcasm? Because you do sometimes apparently send RNZ emails that you republish here.

            • Morrissey 34.2.1.1.1.1

              Was that sarcasm?

              No. I don’t do sarcasm. I leave that to lower forms of life, like our friends Populuxe1, weka and Te Reo Putake.

              Because you do sometimes apparently send RNZ emails that you republish here.

              I do, and there’s nothing “apparent” about them; they are genuine. I’ll have another look to see if they’ve replied, then I’ll publish my letter (probably unanswered, I will bet) on today’s Open Mike (11 June).

              • fender

                I think you are making a mistake grouping Te Reo Putake and Weka with Pompouslux1 Mr. Breen.

                • Yep I agree with fender – think again about this line of attack/defence Morrissey it does you no credit.

                  • Morrissey

                    fender: I think you are making a mistake grouping Te Reo Putake and Weka with Pompouslux1 Mr. Breen.

                    Morrissey: Yeah, you’re right. I thought as I posted it off I was being a bit harsh on those two scallywags.

                    marty mars Yep I agree with fender – think again about this line of attack/defence Morrissey it does you no credit.

                    Morrissey: You’re right, marty, you’re right.

                    MORRISSEY walks over to TE REO PUTAKE and WEKA, hugs them.

  33. Rhinocrates 35

    Iain (M) Banks is dead.

    Fuck.

  34. prism 36

    Brit’s Haig? commented that their spying activity is not wide, enveloping and random it’s – ‘organised, targeted, appropriate’ and something else that has slipped my mind. Do we feel that the Brit govt is a bastion of freedom and respect for all citizens? Do we think that NZ is?

    • ghostrider888 36.1

      likely been some “reciprocal spying” going on amongst Echelon partners”. -Paul Brislen.
      Key- Nah! (to paraphrase briefly).

  35. ghostrider888 37

    and Tom Sharpe.
    anyway, the NZ Super Fund has been investing (only 2M) in five companies manufacturing nuclear weapons and / or their support platforms.

    UK Police to guard selected Islamic sites, schools, mosques, etc around Greater London.
    Oh well.

  36. Parata apparently gave the go ahead to look at a ‘public-private partnership‘ for the Aranui ‘super school’. That was why she pushed back the date of closure, to give a PPP a chance.

    This is all so in keeping …

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