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Open mike 11/01/2020

Written By: - Date published: 7:00 am, January 11th, 2020 - 59 comments
Categories: open mike - Tags:

Open mike is your post.

For announcements, general discussion, whatever you choose.

The usual rules of good behaviour apply (see the Policy).

Step up to the mike …

59 comments on “Open mike 11/01/2020 ”

  1. Dennis Frank 1

    Shane Te Pou is a former candidate, campaign manager and executive member of the Labour Party. He previews election 2020: https://www.newsroom.co.nz/@politics/2020/01/08/976532/the-stars-the-safe-pairs-of-hands-and-the-disasters

    Interesting prediction: "Todd Muller also makes the list for his work first in climate change and now in agriculture. If Bridges misses out on the prime ministership, Muller will be Leader of the Opposition by the end of the year."

    "On the Government side, Green leader Shaw made history last year with his Zero Carbon Bill. For all Ardern’s talk of her nuclear-free moment, it is Shaw alone who made that happen. In contrast to the far left of his party, he has actually achieved something radically important and assured its return later this year, another historic achievement."

    • Sacha 1.1

      while the Green Party’s Julie Anne Genter is popular among the public transport crowd, her aversion to roads has delayed major projects for years

      Blatant bullshit. This government is still spending billions on roads and as Associate Minister primarily responsible for safety, Genter is not in charge of the overall budgets in any case. Shane's ignorant regurgitation of right-wing talking points reduces his usefulness as a commentator.

      Green co-leader James Shaw should similarly remind Eugenie Sage which party she represents and tell her to stop just applying the law on things like foreign investment and get on and change it.

      And more lazy ignoring of how much power the Greens actually have in this government to change anything that Winston does not want changed. It’s the same tactic as calling Ardern a do-nothing leader. With friends like Te Pou, who needs enemas.

      • Sacha 1.1.1

        Todd Muller also makes the list for his work first in climate change and now in agriculture. If Bridges misses out on the prime ministership, Muller will be Leader of the Opposition by the end of the year.

        Muller was removed as Nat climate spokesperson for veering too far from his party's preferred stance and cooperating too much with Shaw. Yet next they are going to anoint him as leader? Don't give up that day job..

      • Anne 1.1.2

        With friends like Te Pou, who needs enemas.smiley

        I wasn't all that impressed either. Get the feeling he is just repeating current MSM political credo.

      • Dennis Frank 1.1.3

        Yeah, he's typical Labour alright! Enough to make Helen Clark proud. I do agree with both your points. Lines of portfolio responsibility do actually need to be factored into political analysis. There's a reputational risk to ministers who attempt an over-reach. And we don't know the extent to which they do behind the scenes lobbying when it results in lack of success.

      • James 1.1.4

        Bullshit to your bullshit.

        You can thank her for the second Mt Vic tunnel that isn’t happening.

    • millsy 1.2

      Shane Te Pou is on record as:

      1) Supporting charter schools (ironic as he also supports Tomorrow's School. He and other supporters of charter schools dont get that under charter schools, parents get zero involvement in running schools).

      2) Supporting mining in national parks.

      Just as an FYI

      • Dennis Frank 1.2.1

        Funny, eh? I quoted Newsroom's description of his Labour insider status deliberately. I presume he got that track record on the basis of the accomplishments you mention. Perhaps it shows that he's slightly to the right of HC…

      • James 1.2.2

        And you’re on record as saying that a man who walked into WINZ offices and shot innocent employees dead should be held up as a hero.

        just as a FYI

        [FFS, James! Address the content. Do not start a flame war with an attack on a commenter. You must be itching for another ban – Incognito]

  2. Paaparakauta 2

    Sen. Susan Collins is working with a ‘small group’ of GOP senators to allow impeachment witnesses

    "House Democrats impeached Republican President Donald Trump on Dec. 18, 2019, but still have not transmitted the impeachment articles to the Senate, preventing the trial from starting. House Speaker Nancy Pelosi (D-Calif.) said Friday the articles could be sent over next week.

    Also on Friday, Collins told reporters that in Maine that she worked all week with a “fairly small group” of Republican senators and others in the party to try to make sure both House impeachment managers and representatives of Trump can call witnesses during the upcoming trial."

    https://www.theepochtimes.com/sen-susan-collins-working-with-small-group-of-gop-senators-to-allow-impeachment-witnesses_3200320.html

  3. Sabine 3

    https://www.stuff.co.nz/world/australia/118724735/australians-leave-homes-as-heat-winds-escalate-fire-danger

    Prime Minister Scott Morrison said the Australian military was on standby to help firefighters and emergency agencies.

    "I've given them very clear instructions that they are to stand ready to move and support immediately,'' Morrison said on Friday. "In the event that they are needed in the wake of what we hope we will not see today, but we must prepare for today.''

    well lucky they are on stand by……

    The military has already been involved in the unfolding crisis by clearing roads closed by fallen trees, burying dead cattle and sheep and providing fodder to surviving livestock.

    but they could be doing so much more…….

    A wind change from the south was predicted to hit the village on Friday night which officials fear could blow the flames in a new direction. Nightingale said he and the other firefighters would work to snuff out any spot fires that flare up to try and keep them from spreading. But if conditions became too dangerous, they would need to take shelter at a community hall, a solid structure with about 25,000 litres of water attached to it. Alongside the hall is a cleared, grassy area away from trees and shrubs where people can retreat as a last resort.

    "The grass on the oval is very short so there's nothing to carry a strong fire,'' he said. "So that's a survival option, basically. A patch of grass. And if that happened, we'd have trucks and sprinklers going and hoses going, wetting people down. But I would hate it to come to that. Anything but that.''

    My partner, the beersies drinking and bbq'ing laughting volunteer firefighter calls this the armageddon scenario – when you have no more options available and are totally out of beer and laughs.

    The conservation group WWF-Australia estimates that 1.25 billion wild animals had died during the current fire crisis in addition to livestock losses, which the government expects will exceed 100,000 animals.

    I am trying to wrap my mind around the number. I can't.

    The majority of estimated losses were reptiles, followed by birds, then mammals such as koalas, kangaroos, wallabies, echidnas and wombats.

    "Kangaroos can get away from fires. But a lot get burnt to a crisp stuck in a fence,'' Blanch said.

    we need more fences obviously.

    Btw, between yesterday to today we had three large fires (New Plymouth, Tauranga and Taupo) plus a whole lot of smaller ones.

    So far we have been very lucky.

    • weka 3.1

      that patch of grass defense, is this local firefighters who are willing to risk this because this is the community they live in and they're not going to abandon it? Is the risk in that scenario the heat? Or that the building might catch on fire?

      • Sabine 3.1.1

        this is when you have no more options to go anywhere because the fire is everywher and you are assembling anything alive on an area that does not risk a full burn and you hose them down to keep them alive.

        btw, the fire in taupo is still ongoing, now involving helicopters and diggers.

        edit: It is essentially the scenario where everyone runs to the beach and into the water to stay alive.

        • weka 3.1.1.1

          right, but I took it as firefighters and people who chose to stay rather than having evacuated earlier while they still could. Am wondering if the firefighters chose to stay to protect their community knowing there was a risk they would get trapped there.

          • Sabine 3.1.1.1.1

            no they don't 'choose'. The firefighters are there to fight the fire. Many could actually not get out in time.

            look at it this way. You have a 1% chance to survive if you stay on a patch that may not burn and hose yourself down with water or you have a 100% chance of dying in your car while trying to get out. What do you do?

            Also, really believe me, the firefighters that i know do not take risks with the life of people in their care. They really don't and maybe we need to stop this train of thought that we can pin this on the firefighters, professionals or voluntaries. They are not responsible for this event, they are trying their hardest to get it under control and save lives.

            Also it pays to remember that the firefighter has no water to stand under, he is probably out there beating the flames with a cloth sack so that others have time to stand under the water and stay save.

        • weka 3.1.1.2

          are you following the NZ fires online somewhere?

          • Sabine 3.1.1.2.1

            my partner is a voluntary firefighter and we get the updates of all the fires.

            And when the beeper goes, i wave him goodbye and hope he comes home in one piece.

            As all of us 'spouses' do.

            And frankly we have been so lucky so far.

            • James 3.1.1.2.1.1

              That must be scary.

              it’s a hell of a job they do. Can’t be easy for those at home either.

              • Sabine

                nah, we'll just have some beers, roast some dead pig and have a laugh.

                🙂 While fundraising for a new firetruck or something.

                Honestly i have nothing but pity for the families of the dead guys in OZ. Chances are that there is nothing for them to help them over, and chances are that they now get the 'single women with children she can't afford' treatment while applying for benefits. Cause widows (with children) are considered 'single women with children' in our current world. Maybe something to consider?

    • joe90 3.2

      The cost of deliberately erasing Aboriginal history.

      "We're talking about a continent that's adapted to fire [and] they were a people who were here for 50,000 years who used fire as a management tool," he said.

      Following European settlement and the displacement of the region's Aboriginal communities, traditional methods of land management ceased.

      […]

      Practising 'cool' fire burning at field day

      Dr Massy said that meant bringing farmers together with Aboriginal people to learn and practise techniques known as 'cool-burn patch' or 'mosaic' burning.

      He recently hosted a Landcare field day on his family's 1,820-hectare sheep and cattle property, and nearly 50 people showed up to learn from Indigenous land manager, Rod Mason.

      "It's very important for non-Indigenous people because they're the new land owners now," Mr Mason said.

      The traditional method was to use small 'cool fires' to bring on fresh grass that would attract game for hunting.

      The effect was to create a landscape over thousands of years which resulted in what the first explorers and settlers described as grassland or open woodland, using terms such as "like a park", as researched recently by award-winning historian, Bill Gammage.

      Essentially, the technique involves burning a small patch in mild conditions, such as cool mornings or late afternoons in late autumn and early winter, and when there is little breeze

      https://www.abc.net.au/news/2016-05-24/monaro-farmers-use-aboriginal-cool-burn-fires-to-recover/7440824?

      • Sabine 3.2.1

        Yes, this and underfunding the fire department – for the paid fire force, the underfunding and neglect of the volunteer fire services and taking decision making away from the locals is what let to this disaster. And our need for mindless consumption, and our governments that actively promotes mindless consumption.

        As far as i can see, Joe and Jane Six Packs and their children are fucked and on their own, and this reality has yet to properly hit. Those who lost their lifelyhood, homes and relatives to the fires already know this. The rest is still burying their heads into the sand, cause change is hard and we don't want to do hard things. .

        • weka 3.2.1.1

          People living in cars and chicken coops three months after the fire in northern NSW. The woman's story being reported says that the crisis is so large it's understandable they can't get to help everyone, but it's hard to fathom how local councils and NGOs aren't assisting here, or areas outside the fire zones.

          • Sabine 3.2.1.1.1

            its one of the issues i have raised as a 'talking point' a few times now.

            How many are homeless? How to handle such a crisis.

            How many have lost businesses and are now unemployed? How to handle such a crisis.

            How many will be seriously ill due to smoke, pollution and frankly unsanitary living arrangements? How to handle such a crisis.

            What about the loan and credit crisis for the people that have lost homes, farms, businesses but have mortgages to pay? Any help available for those that are not farmers? And i say this not to denigrate farmers, but we seem to have funds to bail out farmers any time a natural or man made disaster strikes, but do we have something in place for everyone else?

            What about schools? Hospitals, Clinics, etc that burned down.?

            And last but least, would we be prepared in NZ were something like this to happen to us?

            edit: The local council will have also have to deal with infrastructre burned down, their employees will likewise be without homes, water, electricty, maybe even be voluntary fire fighters.
            And do we really now expect NGO’s to take over and do governments Job? Cause if that is the case, Why do we have a government? (I posted a video about an honest review of the OZ fires – yesterdays open mike – and this question was raised, if you have no seen the clip i suggest you do, the ozzie does a better job then i could ever do).

            These are not question i raise because i am 'negative' or such, but these are questions that we need to ask if we want to look at the future and have something akin to a plan in place. And frankly i think we here in NZ are no more better prepared and funded for that matter then the guys in OZ. We can look at the immediate handling in CHCH after the earthquakes. It is ok for a few weeks to live in a tent with a Port a Potty, but how long can you expect people to do in case of a large scale disaster such as the devastation caused in Oz?

            • weka 3.2.1.1.1.1

              I agree Sabine, they're important questions and not enough people are asking them yet. I also think that NZ is badly prepared, for a big quake and/or tsunami, and for climate change.

              There's a community on the West Coast that is preparing for several months without support after a big Alpine Fault quake. Impressive. I think the 3 days promoted by CD is now woefully inadequate.

              I'm not sure if the local council lost its building (and council people lost their homes), but it's not like every community has been that damaged, and certainly the big cities are still intact, so why are they not stepping up? I'm struggling to see the underlying processes that have broken down. But then I thought that about Chch too, especially how the Eastern suburbs were treated.

              • Sabine

                because the fires are ongoing.

                because the damage is why more and far more spread then we know

                because there is no electricty – substations, powerpoles, transforemers etc all burned.

                because there is no phone – no communication

                because there is no water – water purification, water transport, etc all fucked

                because it is mayhem. And because you have cynical bastard that is currently shitting his depends looking at the damage and trying to put a dollar sign on it, same for the insurance companies, same for the banks. And they rather not talk about it.

                Seriously, look at the maps and remind yourself that these fires have been ongoing since September now, and we really have no idea about just how bad it is. You don't loose 64 houses in a small outback village (as per the thread above) and wonder why things are not working. And you still have three month of summer – with the worst heat – to come.

                Besides, they very well to do people of OZ will not have any of these issues, that is reserved for us humble peasants.

                As for us here in NZ, amuse yourself and find out where your local shelter is, or your local assembly place in case of a disaster. Tell me if you find something. Becuase in AKL – where i last checked a few years ago, the message was "Will be advised when the issue arises 🙂 Yeah, right TUI" and in Tauranga when they had the floods two / three years ago my friend wanting to know where to evacuate to was told on the phone by the operator to look up it up, and when she did that the webpage she was advised to use was down.

                Processes have to be established before they can fail. We don't have processes in place and i would guess neither do they in Oz.

                • Pingao

                  Reply to Sabine – in a big disaster (probably any big disaster) you pretty much have to look after yourself and those around you in the immediate aftermath at least. I think most people have no idea that there may be no driveable roads, maybe no petrol, no shops or cash only shops, no electricity, water or mobile connections (owing to overload) so like you say – it is important to have some plan in advance for what to do and where to evacuate to.

                  Re immediate aftermath example, on the day of the Feb 2011 earthquakes in Christchurch (severe earthquake but only seriously affecting about half of Christchurch) my texts both in and out kept repeating for about 10 hours and some people didn't receive my texts til hours later.

                  Some longer term examples – people were living in the sand dunes at the beach for months afterwards, my neighborhood (and others in the east) had portaloos from September 2010 for months until we were red zoned and then until everyone finally got kicked out in June 2013.

                  My point being, in a small first world modern city we struggled – we did have a huge amount of help but it takes a long time to get going and a long time to fix (many are still not "fixed" and I know 2 or 3 people who have only just settled their claims last year). So for the short term at least, get a plan, find a place to go to, have access to your hot water cylinder water (get a tap fitted underneath), have an old plug in phone (if you have a landline), keep some cash and keep your community links strong.

      • joe90 3.2.2

        How Aboriginal history and technology was deliberately erased by the white settlers in Australia to justify their terra nullius thievery and slaughter of the original inhabitants.

        Isaac Batey saw that the hillsides of Melbourne were terraced in the process of yam production and that the tilth of the soil was so light you could run your fingers through it. Mitchell saw these yam fields stretching as far as he could see near Gariwerd (Grampians). He extolled the beauty of these plains assuming that God had made them so that he could ‘discover’ them, not once thinking how peculiar it was for the best soil in the country to have almost no trees. This was a managed field of harvest. George Augustus Robinson saw women stretched across those same fields of horticulture in the process of harvesting the tubers.

        Charles Sturt had his life saved in Central Australia when he came upon people who were harvesting a river valley and supplied him with water, from their well, roast duck and cake. Both Mitchell and Sturt described the baked goods as the lightest and sweetest they had ever tasted. How many historians have read those comments and yet not one has considered that it would be in the nation’s commercial and culinary interests to find out the particular grasses from which those flours were made?

        E.M. Curr noticed that as he brought the first vehicle into the plains south of Echuca his cart wheels ‘turned up bushels of tubers’. Once again some of Australia’s best soils were almost bereft of trees, the plains having been horticulturally altered to provide permanent harvests of tubers. Unlike Mitchell’s self-indulgent congratulations, Curr was aware who had produced this productivity and later recognised that it was his sheep that destroyed it.

        http://archive.li/Vi9vR

  4. joe90 4

    Of course MBA's and bean counters will be behind this.

    Some of the most notable messages:

    “I just jedi mind tricked this fools. I should be given $1,000 every time I take one of these calls. I save this company a sick amount of $$$$.”

    “Would you put your family on a MAX simulator trained aircraft? I wouldn’t.”

    “I’ll be shocked if the FAA passes this turd.”

    “This is a joke. This airplane is ridiculous.”

    “Best part is we are re-starting this whole thing with the 777X with the same supplier and have signed up to an even more aggressive schedule!”

    “Jesus, it’s doomed.”

    […]

    “I am concerned that if [redacted] chooses to require a Max simulator for its pilots beyond what all other regulators are requiring that it will be creating a difficult and unnecessary training burden for your airline, as well as potentially establish a precedent in your region for other Max customers,” the Boeing pilot wrote in the forwarded message.

    An unidentified Boeing employee in a different text message exchange brags about swaying India’s regulator “to make them feel stupid about trying to require any additional training requirements.”

    Added the sender: “I just Jedi mind tricked this [sic] fools. I should be given $1000 every time I take one of these calls. I save this company a sick amount of $$$$.”

    https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2020-01-10/-incredibly-damning-boeing-messages-show-employee-unease-on-max

    • Macro 4.1

      This is a direct result of underfunding of the FAA and the deregulation of the Aircraft industry and handing the oversight of certification of aircraft to the industry.

      WASHINGTON — Seven years ago, an internal government watchdog took a hard look at the part of the Federal Aviation Administration responsible for certifying new Boeing jetliners. The watchdog’s investigation came to some alarming conclusions.

      F.A.A. employees viewed their management, the inquiry by the Transportation Department’s inspector general’s office found, as “having too close a relationship with Boeing officials.” F.A.A. managers, the report said, had not always backed efforts by agency employees “to hold Boeing accountable,” and employees feared retaliation for trying to do so.

      The part of the F.A.A. under scrutiny, the Transport Airplane Directorate, was led at the time by an aerospace engineer named Ali Bahrami. The next year, he took a job at the Aerospace Industries Association, a trade group whose members include Boeing. In that position, he urged his former agency to allow manufacturers like Boeing to perform as much of the work of certifying new planes as possible.

      Mr. Bahrami is now back at the F.A.A. as its top safety official.

      The question of whether the F.A.A. has gone too far in allowing Boeing to regulate itself has emerged as one of the key issues after the crash of a Boeing 737 Max in Ethiopia this month, the second deadly crash of the new plane in less than five months. The practice is already coming under scrutiny from Congress, and lawmakers are likely to press the F.A.A.’s acting administrator on Wednesday when he appears at a Senate hearing.

      By Thomas Kaplan

      • March 26, 2019

      https://www.nytimes.com/2019/03/26/us/politics/boeing-faa.html

  5. Incognito 5

    Attention Jenny, for the last time, because I am tiring wasting my time on this (and I have no obligation to do this):

    You seem to still not understand why you are in Moderation and below is a timeline of relevant stuff.

    You are also disconnected from other comments, replies (incl. to your own comments), moderation notes to you, and your comments ending up in Trash. Commenters who are only/largely interested in using TS as medium/platform to hear their own voice and who are or appear to be largely oblivious of the TS community should start their own blog. I don’t care either way.

    Besides this, 1) you don’t call out others by giving them incorrect labels, and 2) you don’t interfere with moderation. These are the two main reasons why you ended up and still are in Moderation.

    Weka replied a few times to FoRo to get him to explain his comments before moderation started.

    2020/01/04 at 8:17 am (comment by FoRo moved to OM & moderated)

    2020/01/04 at 12:11 pm (comment by FoRo moved to OM)

    2020/01/04 at 1:16 pm (comment by FoRo moderated)

    2020/01/05 at 10:55 am (comment by FoRo moved to OM)

    On 5 Jan Jenny replied 3 times to FoRo but no response from FoRo.

    2020/01/05 at 4:51 pm (Jenny replies to Sacha; moans that FoRo refuses to debate (presumably with Jenny; calls him a troll) – answering/replying to other commenters is not compulsory but responding to Moderation is.

    5 January 2020 at 5:14 pm (Incognito replies to Jenny stating that FoRo is not trolling but is trying to explain his position to Weka, i.e. he’s responding to Moderation; Incognito warns Jenny to stay out of Moderation).

    2020/01/06 at 10:50 am (Jenny put into Moderation; moans again about FoRo not engaging (with her); calls him a “right wing troll”; does not acknowledge that FoRo was actively being monitored/moderated and that she needs to butt out of moderation).

    Jenny makes 13 comments unrelated to her own moderation while in Moderation, which all end up in Trash; doesn’t realise or doesn’t care.

    2020/01/11 at 12:21 am (in Trash; Jenny asks how long ban is for – has already been explained to her; reckons she’s in “good company” (!?) if ban is permanent; takes a swipe at RedLogix and FoRo).

    • Sacha 5.1

      I feel tired just reading that.

      • Incognito 5.1.1

        Sorry. Sleep on it 😉

      • weka 5.1.2

        Yep. I'm pretty much over spending my time chasing people up to respond to moderation. Regulars here should know by now that if their comments don't appear they need to go back and look for their last comment and see the moderation note attached. Responding to that will get moderators to sort things out. Spamming the Trash folder (or trying to litigate there) won't. In the end it all comes down to not wasting moderator time (I'd rather be writing posts).

  6. Sabine 6

    and so it goes,

    Iran admitted to accidentally shooting down the plane. From Al Jazeera.

    More news forthcoming.

    This year is gonna be so interesting.

    • joe90 6.1

      This week has been an interesting year.

      (I ask because no country, having been told by the leader of a geopolitical foe that it could be bombed at any time, would fail to monitor the communications of a top adviser to that leader who happened to be *on-air* at the time of a potential airstrike. So this *does* matter.)

      https://threadreaderapp.com/thread/1215337524064915456.html

      • Sabine 6.1.1

        this is a good summary

        https://www.moonofalabama.org/2020/01/iranian-armed-forces-say-they-inadvertently-shot-down-the-ukrainian-plane.html#comments

        n the hours after the missile strikes, US terrorist forces' warplanes around the country increased, and some reports of air strikes targeting strategic centers in the country were reported to numerous defense units and targets on some radar plates. It has caused more sensitivity in air defense units.
        In such critical conditions, the Ukrainian Airlines departs from Imam Khomeini Airport and, while in rotation, was in close proximity to a sensitive military center of the IRGC and in a height and shape of a hostile aircraft. In these circumstances, the plane was accidentally hit by a human error, which unfortunately results in the martyrdom of dear compatriots and the death of a number of foreign nationals.

        The Armed Forces General Staff sends condolences to the families of missing persons of other countries and apologizes for the human error, ensures that this will not happen again by carrying out major reforms in operational processes at armed forces level to make such errors impossible and immediately report it to the Armed Forces Judicial Organization to deal with the errors committed legally.

        snip

        After the USS Vincennes in 1989 shot down Iran Air Flight 655 and killed 290 people, including many children, the U.S. government denied any culpability. George H. W. Bush, the vice president of the United States at the time, commented: "I will never apologize for the United States – I don't care what the facts are… I'm not an apologize-for-America kind of guy." Despite its "error" the crew was given medals and the captain was even awarded a Legion of Merit "for exceptionally meritorious conduct in the performance of outstanding service as commanding officer …".

        i agree with B's comment that the Iranian officer most likely will not receive a medal.

        • Anne 6.1.1.1

          Thanks Sabine. Read the Stuff article 5 mins ago and my immediate reaction:

          If the US accidently shot down an Iranian plane with a missile they would never own up to it.

          https://i.stuff.co.nz/world/middle-east/118731355/iran-says-it-unintentionally-shot-down-ukrainian-jetliner

          • RedLogix 6.1.1.1.1

            If the US accidently shot down an Iranian plane with a missile they would never own up to it.

            The USS Vincennes incident with Iran Air Flight 655 suggests otherwise.

            • joe90 6.1.1.1.1.1

              After initial denials US officials lied through their teeth, asserting the airliner was rapidly descending and was headed toward the Vincennes in an attack profile, when in fact their own onboard systems recorded the airliner climbing and other US warships in the area had identified the aircraft as civilian and that the flight was well within a recognized international air corridor.

              A month after the loss of 290 lives VP Bush declared

              I will never apologize for the United States — I don’t care what the facts are. … I’m not an apologize-for-America kind of guy

              and despite mealy mouthed notes of regret for the loss of human lives, the US has never formally apologized or acknowledged wrongdoing.

              To rub in the salt, the Vincennes crew were awarded combat ribbons with no acknowledgement of the incident and it took eight years before any compensation was offered to the victims families.

            • Anne 6.1.1.1.1.2

              Yes. That was what I was thanking Sabine for. 😉

              I read Stuff piece prior to seeing Sabine's post and thought… now the US wouldn't own up to it would they. Forgot about 1989 incident.

              Should add… neither do the Russians own up to it:

              https://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-48691488

      • adam 6.1.2

        Probably not your cup of tea music wise joe90 but a anarchist mate was at one of their concerts recently, and the place got flooded with police who shut them down when they started playing this song.

        https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MBG3Gdt5OGs&ab_channel=IC3PEAK

        Been talking with mates in Russia and Putin is freaking out over popular music at the moment. Little Big, IC3PEAK and others are having concerts pulled even before they play. His control not as solid as it once was, especially with the youth.

    • McFlock 6.2

      Relatively quick admission and apology for a tragic error. Good.

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