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Open mike 11/06/2014

Written By: - Date published: 6:26 am, June 11th, 2014 - 314 comments
Categories: open mike - Tags:

openmike Open mike is your post.

For announcements, general discussion, whatever you choose.

The usual rules of good behaviour apply (see the Policy).

Step up to the mike ..

314 comments on “Open mike 11/06/2014”

  1. gobsmacked 1

    Proof of what we’ve known for years …

    http://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/news/article.cfm?c_id=1&objectid=11271474

    Perhaps the gallery hacks could now stop telling us that Key “quips” when he simply produces a verbal photocopy of somebody else’s brain.

    I’m sorry, please pay no attention to the man behind the curtain …

    • framu 1.1

      is it normal for the police to brief the PM on a crime like this?

      and did the talking points come from the police or from his office?

      seems odd – but i have no idea what standard practice is here

    • Draco T Bastard 1.2

      The email, sent to the Newstalk ZB newsroom, also mentioned a secret, taxpayer-funded visit by United Nations ambassadors to Queenstown as part of New Zealand’s UN Security Council bid and gave candid details about Mr Key’s talking points for media on a wide range of issues.

      See, I call that bribery.

  2. interesting the lack of bottle being shown by bob jones..

    ..running/hiding from the challenge from john minto to a public debate..

    ..and him a (self-regarding) pugilist..eh..?

    ..someone send that man a white feather…

    ..he’s clearly all mouth and no trousers..

    ..perhaps he realises minto wd monster him..?

    ..so has thrown in the towel..

    ..from the get-go..?

    ..for some reason..jones doesn’t strike me as one who wd handle a public drubbing too well..

    ..eh..?

    ..(being the (self-admitted/lauded) ‘snob’ he is..

    ..also kinda funny how jones equates money with ‘class’..

    ..it ain’t so bob..eh..?

    ..if in doubt..seek out a mirror..eh..?..)

    ..ya gotta laff tho’..eh..?

    ..jones will never hear the end of this..

    ..next time he gets his dick out to wave it around in a threatening manner..

    ..everyone will just say/think:..’yeah right..minto..?’

    ..c’mon mr jones..!..

    ..the mob awaits you..

    • Tracey 2.1

      bob jones doesnt debate. He sits on high and proclaims. His refusal is expected, imo.

      • marty mars 2.1.1

        I agree Tracey. Plus I’d rather John just ignored jones and carried on the work he is doing with this election coming very close now. Perhaps the debate might have energised a non-voter or 2 but with jones involved it would have got ugly and that tends to put people off rather than turn them on.

        phil I really hope that these lines you wrote turn out to be not true lol

        “..jones will never hear the end of this..

        ..next time he gets his dick out to wave it around in a threatening manner..

        ..everyone will just say/think:..’yeah right..minto..?’”

        hey jones don’t get your dick out and wave it around – pleeease

      • phillip ure 2.1.2

        tracey..i dunno how to break this to you…

        ..but bob jones has a very low opinion of yr name..eh..?

        “..a British study revealing no jury had ever acquitted any female called Tracey.

        In fairness that could be pragmatism as anyone called Tracey is bound to be criminally inclined..”.

    • vto 2.2

      John Minto stands up against the imprisonment of the greatest man to have lived in our time, Nelson Mandela – no recognition, no knighthood, nothing.

      Bob Jones stands up against nothing but makes 100s of millions – knighted.

      says it all about our society – sad eh.

      And Bob Jones is just a chicken for refusing to debate Minto.

      Bob Jones – bok bok …. boooook book book ….. bok bok bok

      Bob Jones is chicken shit scared lol

      • Colonial Viper 2.2.1

        There are always personal costs to standing up against organisational and establishment power…it isn’t nice or fair but the fact Minto has done so any way and keeps doing so is a credit to him.

        • vto 2.2.1.1

          Yes it is, agreed. Though some 2c says that a tidier haircut and ironed shirts would enhance now that he is standing for public office…. and a few smiles from time to time ……

          …. he is doing a bit more than just protesting now

          • Molly 2.2.1.1.1

            I don’t have the same comment to make re Minto – looks like integrity to me – better than looking like GQ.

            • vto 2.2.1.1.1.1

              I totally appreciate that approach Molly but I think it ignores realities around people, perceptions and voting. Completely unnecessarily. And solely to the detriment of the person trying to get elected – in this case Minto.

              I mean you even see it with Hone imo. He goes to some effort to make his appearance more acceptable to the masses, which I am sure he wouldn’t normally do in his daily life.

              It is just an inescapable fact of life that people judge on appearances as well as everything else and people ignore that at their peril ….

              • I don’t think anyone will base their decision to vote for Mana and John Minto on what he wears or his haircut – he’s above all that imo.

                • Hi marty mars,

                  I think you’re probably right when talking about a person and party who is closely associated with a clear set of policies and a distinctive political position.

                  But the ‘mass appeal’ sought by some politicians often is markedly influenced by appearance. Here’s a paper – unfortunately behind the paywall – titled “Elected in milliseconds: Appearance-based trait inferences and voting“.

                  The abstract reads:

                  Recent research has shown that rapid judgments about the personality traits of political candidates, based solely on their appearance, can predict their electoral success. This suggests that voters rely heavily on appearances when choosing which candidate to elect. Here we review this literature and examine the determinants of the relationship between appearance-based trait inferences and voting. We also reanalyze previous data to show that facial competence is a highly robust and specific predictor of political preferences. Finally, we introduce a computer model of face-based competence judgments, which we use to derive some of the facial features associated with these judgments.

                  • RedLogix

                    All of which rather suggests that the kind of populist democracy we are running – really is a total crock.

                    • Colonial Viper

                      Actually it was the development of television and image based media culture which torpedoed it.

                      In the old days rhetoric and leadership counted for something, and no one voted Abe in on the basis of his looks.

            • phillip ure 2.2.1.1.1.2

              perhaps the obvious choice..but it fits so well..

              ‘ballad of a thin man”..

              ‘something is happening now – but you don’t know what it is..

              ..do you.?..mr jones..?..’

      • Tracey 2.2.2

        anyone who thinks property will be down valued just has to look at jones knighthood to see where successive govts sit on property developers

      • Populuxe1 2.2.3

        “Bob Jones stands up against nothing”

        Um, he did stand up against price and wage freezes, and a top tax rate of 66%. He stands up against a lot of stuff, although admittedly most of it is reactionary hot air.

      • swordfish 2.2.4

        Yep. And, in fact, Jones was extremely antagonistic towards HART and, of course, other liberal-Left organisations. There’s a famous shot of him in formal evening wear giving the fingers to anti-Tour protesters outside a National Party conference in the late 70s.

        • vto 2.2.4.1

          That’s right.

          Bob Jones didn’t give a shit about Nelson Mandela, in fact quite the opposite.

          Yet Jones gets the knighthood and Minto the finger.

          says it all …. very sad …. typified by the chicken shit Bob Jones ….. bok bok

  3. (this is about britain..and here..)

    “..George Monbiot:..Unchallenged by craven Labour – Britain slides towards ever more selfishness..”

    “..We need a Labour that reminds the country to care –

    • not one that embraces market values –
    • and entrenches inequality..”

    (cont..)

    http://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2014/jun/10/labour-britain-selfishness-market-inequality

    • just saying 3.1

      Thanks Philip. Well worth a read.

      As in Britain, Labour is the problem. To quote Manibot:

      Their political philosophy is simply stated: if at first you don’t succeed, flinch, flinch and flinch again. They seem to believe that if they simply fall into line with prevailing values, people will vote for them by default. But those values and baselines keep shifting, and what seemed intolerable before becomes unremarkable today. Instead of challenging the new values, these parties adjusting. This is why they always look like their opponents, with a five-year lag.

  4. David H 4

    Just watched Cunliffe on TV3. Still spouting FPP shite, but I suppose he’s holding some sort of moral high ground. But all the Morals in the world are worth nothing, when the other side cheats, all you are left with is a moralistic loser! And I don’t want to wast my vote on a loser

    • Te Reo Putake 4.1

      From memory, you don’t vote anyway, David. And Cunliffe’s position is that its up to the voters to decide. Which is both democratic and respectful.

      • Rodel 4.1.1

        TRP

        Cunliffe..You decide and we’ll accept your decision. (yes TRP- democratic and respectful)
        Key..I’ll decide who you should vote for.(dodgy and contemptuous)

        • bad12 4.1.1.1

          That’s not really true tho is it Rodel, Slippery isn’t deciding who people will vote for, the PM, whatever i think of Him personally, which is somewhere near what i would expect to scrape off of the bottom of my boots after a gambol in the paddocks and/or something entirely unprintable in a family show like this is behaving quite logically,

          He will advise voters that a vote for X in an electorate will enhance the chances of a 3rd term for National, the candidates in such electorates will be advised to become akin to Claude Raines, invisible,

          Such behavior is nothing but Pragmatic, and to borrow a phrase from the gurls, ”please keep your morals out of our election”, politics isn’t the art of morals, politics is the art in the case of MMP elections of ensuring that there are at least ‘a’ coalition partner left standing after the battle,

          There is nothing more pragmatic than openly saying (a) as a major party we propose any of these smaller parties as being able to be part of our working Government, and (b) as a proposed Government we will directly ask our supporters to vote in some electorates as we ask them to so as to ensure the success at the election of part or all of the Government we propose,

          Seems simple really…

      • amirite 4.1.2

        Voters would like for the Left to win, not another Nat-ruled term.

        • Clemgeopin 4.1.2.1

          Then the VOTERS themselves should decide how THEY vote.

          • Colonial Viper 4.1.2.1.1

            They are.

          • bad12 4.1.2.1.2

            And what Clemogin is exactly wrong with the head of a major Party such as Labour talking to voters and laying out the options for them,

            Or do you think that free speech should be curtailed in the quest for some moral purity surrounding elections???…

      • David H 4.1.3

        Then your memory is Remiss. I vote Every time I am able to vote! (And I have voted Labour since 1974 when I was first allowed to vote,) And after voting for a party for 40 years, I think I have the right to question the direction and tactics they are using.

        Now it may be democratic and respectful. But with the games that are being played by TricKey, Democracy is being sold to the highest bidder. And TricKey has NO respect for anyone or anything except a third term. Oh and the trinket, tap on the shoulders by the Queen for yet another meaningless title, and more photo’s.

        So All the fair playing by one side, and hoping that the NZ public will give a fuck over the tricks and bullshit that TricKey is pulling, is just I am sorry to say just asking to lose.

        So Labour is going to go all out, to win in all seats, and that will split the Left vote, and the Nats roar up through the middle and win the seat, and the left snatch defeat, from the jaws of Victory.

        Now if that’s the scenario what’s the point in voting Labour? It would be better to vote either Green or Internet/Mana, because at least they WANT to win. Because sorry Labour just don’t seem to want to win, all they want to do is fight among them selves, and abuse their coalition partners.

        • Colonial Viper 4.1.3.1

          Hence Labour doggedly sitting on 31%

        • felix 4.1.3.2

          That’s a bit unfair David, Labour want to win.

          It’s just a pity they want to win against the Greens and Mana instead of against National.

          • Colonial Viper 4.1.3.2.1

            Just to prove that they are more sporting than National, Labour will now agree to contest the election with hands and feet tied behind its back, and voluntarily accept a 6 shot handicap at the next hole to boot.

            It’s going to garner respect and admiration from around the country I tells ya.

          • David H 4.1.3.2.2

            @ felix
            When? 2017? 2020? They have got to piss, or get off the pot!

        • Te Reo Putake 4.1.3.3

          (And I have voted Labour since 1974 when I was first allowed to vote,)

          You claimed to have voted Green at the last election, David. But at least you voted, so indeed, my memory was incorrect.

          • David H 4.1.3.3.1

            No I voted Labour last time (one of the few.) But this time I am looking at the Greens and a vote for Hone just for the percentages Anything to get Nathan guy out of office. But last time (2011) the only political party that was missing in the door knocking stakes was the Labour candidate. And I still don’t know who he/she was.

            • Te Reo Putake 4.1.3.3.1.1

              Um, how does either of those votes get Nathan Guy out? If anything, you’re helping Guy stay as MP, if you’re voting Green for the electorate. Which is what you said in February last year you actually did in in the 2011 election. Vote Green, get Guy.

              • David H

                @TRP well if you have nothing better than to troll through 16 months worth of my ramblings on here to find one message, then you my friend are one very, very, disturbed individual. And I am more than a little worried about people that go to these lengths to find out information, as they usually turn out to be Psycho Killer type’s in the vein of Graeme Burton!

                • David H

                  Why is that in Moderation I wonder.

                  • Clemgeopin

                    I once used the word, troll and it went in to moderation for that, I think, but not sure.

                  • Clemgeopin

                    “I once used the word, t**ll and it went into moderation for that, I think, but not sure.”

                    Ha, ha! I just posted the above as a reply to you without the asterisk and it went to moderation! Yes, it IS that word!!

                    P.S : The asterisks are for the letters r and o !

        • Clemgeopin 4.1.3.4

          So, instead of you asking Labour to stand aside or tell voters to vote for the smaller party/candidates, why don’t you ask the Greens and Internet Mana to stand aside for Labour?

          • bad12 4.1.3.4.1

            If you do not Clemopin see the stupidity in your question when you look deeply at the Te Tai Tokerau electorate and the Waiariki electorate where Labour has managed recently a distant 3rd place in the contest then i am probably wasting time, energy, and pixels addressing you,

            Labour will if they ‘win’ the above electorates in fact gain no more ”Numbers” in the House, the reverse of that coin says that should Labour ‘win’ those two electorates the left will be down at least 1 in numbers in the house and it is odds on that with the electoral arse kicking that this election should see the demise of the Maori Party that ‘win’ for Labour if it occurs will leave the left light of 2 votes in the House…

            • Te Reo Putake 4.1.3.4.1.1

              Bad, you assume, yet again, that Mana will support a Labour led government. There is no evidence for that at all and until Mana/IMP actually say that is their position, then there could never be an accommodation, even on a nod and a wink basis. Hone indicated, prior to the arrangement with KDC, that mana would vote issue by issue in the next parliament. That’s not an endorsement of a Labour led government, so why should Labour take the risk?

              And with Laila Harre on board, I’d say it’s even less likely that IMP will be part of the next government. She doesn’t like Labour, but she is an expert at negotiating from a position of relative weakness. I expect she would advise that IMP go no further than support for confidence and supply in exchange for some policy gains. If I’m right, then, again, why would Labour take the risk?

              • Tracey

                hasnt hone said an objective is to stop the nats governing. If he and harre dont go with labour, how do you see that goal being achieved

              • bad12

                Dribble on Te Reo, the whole foundation of InternetMana is built upon the agreement that neither arm of the alliance will support a 3rd term National Government,

                The rest of your comment is simply a large red herring aimed at Diversion and does not in any way address the point about the numbers in the House that i point out…

                • Te Reo Putake

                  Nice unintended concession, bad You’re starting to get it. Now work on understanding the difference between wanting to remove this government and supporting the next one. When the penny finally drops, you’ll be able to understand Labour’s position.

                  • Tracey

                    so you are saying hone and harre will give confidence and supply only?

                    • Te Reo Putake

                      Yep, Tracey, that’s exactly it. Any seats IMP get will be cross benchers, voting issue by issue. They won’t be part of the Labour led government, by their own choice, but they might give support on C&S if they get some concessions. So that’s the dilemma for Labour; do they accept that a minority government is the best they can do or do they go all out to win as many electorate seats as they can and hope that they can put together a 3 way majority coalition.

                    • Tracey

                      i see what you are saying however this would be a chance for them to get much more tan that, surely?

                    • Te Reo Putake

                      As always, it depends on the numbers. I think its obvious that whoever forms the government is not going to have a big margin of victory. National would probably regard a repeat of the one seat majority they currently have (till Friday) as adequate. Anything more would be a bonus. Labour + Greens+ NZF would be either a minority government if IMP get seats, or 61/59 winners without them. If they get enough support, that is. The key thing is probably whether the maori party survive, rather than IMP’s result. No MP, no National government, I reckon. Sadly, I think both ACT and UF will make it over the line, but will only have 2 MP’s to add to National’s 57-59 seats.

                      Anyhoo, that’s how I think it adds up now. Some good policy from Labour might just lift us to 35% or better, which is the point at which a change of government is almost guaranteed, whatever the IMP result is.

                    • Colonial Viper

                      2 terms of Tory mismanagement and mendacious conduct and the Left will squeek through with a couple of seat majority. Maybe.

                    • Clemgeopin

                      @Te Reo Putake

                      You need to also consider these points:

                      With the election tea sipping deal, ACT, DUNNE may get in and Craig with his tea gulping and polling support of about 2.5% may win and bring in 3 seats. That is 5 free seats plus 1 or 2 possible Maori party seats. Plus, in the Bill English seat, the newly announced ACT candidate (ex farmer’s union president) may also sip tea and win.

                      That is a total of about 7 to 8 extra free seats for National to govern with.

                      Points to ponder!

                  • bad12

                    Drip, Drip Te Reo, IF labour were to ‘win’ Te Tai Tokerau and Waiariki and InternetMana not cross the 5% thresh-hold then my view is there will not be a Government of the left,

                    Should in the unlikely event that Winston Peters deign to side with a seriously depleted Labour the Greens will have to essentially be forced to the sidelines by Labour with the threat of an electoral backlash if they do not comply,

                    An Labour/NZFirst minority Government propped up by the Greens having no real say on policy might be your wet-dream Te Reo but it aint mine…

                    • Te Reo Putake

                      “An Labour/NZFirst minority Government propped up by the Greens having no real say on policy might be your wet-dream Te Reo but it aint mine…”

                      And yet, that is exactly the position you advocate. The penny not dropped yet?

                    • Colonial Viper

                      TRP, I kowtow to the tactical campaign brilliance of those in the Labour hierarchy, from how it’s going thus far no doubt we can all have faith in these superior calculations.

                    • North

                      ONE Maori MP in the North – Kelvin in Te Tai Tokerau electorate ……well that’s immeasurably preferable to TWO Maori MPs in the North – Hone in Te Tai Tokerau electorate AND Kelvin from the Labour List.

                      Immeasurably preferable…….don’t you see that ?

                    • Clemgeopin

                      @North.

                      How? What do you mean by saying one Maori MP is preferable to two?

                    • bad12

                      North is i think using a little sarcasm as a tool in the debate…

                    • bad12

                      Drip, Drip, Drip, Te Reo i bow to your obvious inferior calculations on the issue, should Labour ‘win’ Te Tai Tokerau and Waiariki in September i am sure we will be having this conversation again,

                      i am also sure that should we have the unfortunate repeat you will simply disregard reality as you are doing now…

            • Clemgeopin 4.1.3.4.1.2

              Don’t you think that the voters themselves can’t work that out? and in any case, I am sure the Mana candidate himself will make that point crystal clear to the voters.

        • kenny 4.1.3.5

          That’s about it!

        • Daveosaurus 4.1.3.6

          I have voted Labour since 1974 when I was first allowed to vote

          Ah, the 1974 general election. That was one to remember, all right. They don’t do them like that any more.

          (suuuuuuuuuuuuuure you did)

          • swordfish 4.1.3.6.1

            To be fair, David probably just got a little confused. Either meant 72 or 75. Then, again, for all we know he might have voted in a 1974 by-election or might have been referring to a local body election of that year (can’t remember if there were any in 74 ?) or maybe Dave’s a Brit (UK had not just one but two general elections in 74).

            • millsy 4.1.3.6.1.1

              I think I remember him talking about growing up in Britain in previous posts, So I am picking that he voted in the UK general election(s) of 1974.

          • felix 4.1.3.6.2

            Maybe he means that’s when he turned 18. Hence “when I was first allowed to vote”.

    • Bearded Git 4.2

      Get off his back David. I have never heard Cunliffe spout FPP stuff. He was excellent on Morning Report yesterday explaining that Labour had a long standing relationship with the Greens and could work with NZ First. This is MMP talk.

      Of course he will work with IMP as well, it is just good politics not to say so.

    • karol 4.3

      I’m finding the relentless focusing on strategies, alliances, etc, by the MSM and some in the blogosphere, a real turn-off. I wonder how many potential voters have the same response. I know that parties need to have strong election strategies in place. But for many voters, the focus on poltiics as a game to be wom or lost, is just not inspiring.

      I reckon that what is really needed is for the public face of each party to be focused on inspiring people with messages of what they will do for Kiwis when in government.

      • Matthew Hooton 4.3.1

        You make a reasonable point, except that it is the strategies/alliances etc that drive policy. For example, a Labour/NZ First government would be very different from a Labour/Green one, a National/ACT government from a National/NZ First one. How parties position themselves, who they would prefer to work with after the election – these things decide what policy frameworks will be put in place after an election, not manifestos or policy promises before it which have little value except in terms of indicating negotiating priorities.

        • karol 4.3.1.1

          But the amount of votes a party gets has an impact on the strength a party has in post election negotiations.

          It is till important for people to know what they are voting for. And prioritising the game over the policies and values is a turn off for many of us. And it works against democracy when it’s all about one team winning, rather than about what values and policies people are voting for.

          • Matthew Hooton 4.3.1.1.1

            No, the amount of votes a party gets doesn’t make much difference to their negotiating strength. What gives negotiating strength is the ability to deal with both sides, which is why Peters and Dunne have had so much more true power over the years than Act, the Alliance or the Greens.

            • Tracey 4.3.1.1.1.1

              what do you consider peter dunnes top five achievements, with year date?

            • karol 4.3.1.1.1.2

              You miss the main point and are using a circular argument.

              Firstly, I’m not arguing for no consideration of alliances, strategies, etc. But that this is given too much mainstream attention in comparison with discussing policies and party values. The latter is essential to democracy, and to engaging with the public, and should get the majority of attention.

              And the amount of party votes does count for minor parties. We know what Peters and his party stands for. Dunne just stands for getting into power and TINA, and the Maori Party has moved in that direction in the last couple of terms. to be able to exercise their choice, people need to know more about what Dunne does (or doesn’t) stand for, and how that compares with other parties.

              Focusing on getting into power, strategies, etc, does favour the likes of Dunne. The bigger the vote the Greens get, the more influence they will have – ditto IMP.

              And if voters largely vote strategically, how can any governing party ever claim a mandate? The vote would therefore not necessarily be for them, but for the policies of another party.

              However, I would think that, as you are a gamer, you won’t agree with anything but a dominant focus on the game. And that is something that appeals to many who follow politics a lot, but I think it is a turn off for many. If it’s all just game of politician winners and losers, what difference will voting make to many people’s lives?

              • Matthew Hooton

                Fair enough, although I disagree when you say “the bigger the vote the Greens get, the more influence they will have – ditto IMP.” I think that is only true if the Greens vote gets close to or above Labour’s – but even if the Greens did move ahead of Labour then Labour would become the centrist party between the two main National and Green parties, and so would probably continue to have considerable power.

                • cd u answer traceys’ request..

                  ..and list those achievements of dung..?

                  ..he has kept the greens out of parliament..

                  ..and stalled/delayed the ending of cannabis-prohibition..

                  ..and pumped/promoted/defended the tobacco/booze industries..

                  ..since day one..

                  ..anything else..?

                  • Populuxe1

                    Staying in parliament with perks for as long as he has. That’s quite an achievement.

            • minarch 4.3.1.1.1.3

              “so much more true power ”

              mmwhwhahahahahahahahahaaa (picture evil genius wringing hands in evil manner )

      • Rosie 4.3.2

        “I’m finding the relentless focusing on strategies, alliances, etc, by the MSM and some in the blogosphere, a real turn-off.”

        Agreed karol, well at least from my point if view. Apart from keeping up with the news in general I’m having a break from reading the pre election tea leaf reading (with respect to the very knowledgeable and experienced people writing on the subject on the the blogs, not talking about 3 news there) It’s kind of doing my head in.

        I just want these last 6 years to be over. I’m just too tired.

  5. Rosie 5

    This ones for Stephanie.

    I heard there is a campaign launch for Ohariu Labour on 25th June at the J’ville Community Centre and that David Cunliffe will be attending. I was really keen to attend but have now found out that it is a fundraising dinner and I can’t afford the $50 ticket. I’m also assuming it’s more for members than the general public.

    Will there be an opportunity for the public to get along to a meeting with Virginia Anderson (and David Cunliffe?!) and hear about what Labour has to offer prior to the candidates meetings?

    Great to see the flyers appearing in the letterbox btw. Big ups to all the hard working volunteers.

  6. Colonial Viper 6

    Bots begin to fool human beings on social media

    They’re getting better at imitating human responses. It has been previously revealed that these bots are used by intelligence services to monitor and influence social networking.

    Given the plastic, trite responses however I predict it will remain very hard to distinguish between a bot and a RWNJ, however.

    You might say that bots are not very sophisticated and so easy to spot. And that Twitter monitors the Twittersphere looking for, and removing, any automated accounts that it finds…

    If you hold that opinion, it’s one that you might want to revise following the work of Carlos Freitas at the Federal University of Minas Gerais in Brazil and a few pals, who have studied how easy it is for socialbots to infiltrate Twitter.

    Their findings will surprise. They say that a significant proportion of the socialbots they have created not only infiltrated social groups on Twitter but became influential among them as well…

    These guys began by creating 120 socialbots and letting them loose on Twitter. The bots were given a profile, made male or female and given a few followers to start off with, some of which were other bots.

    The bots generate tweets either by reposting messages that others have posted or by creating their own synthetic tweets using a set of rules to pick out common words on a certain topic and put them together into a sentence.

    The bots were also given an activity level. High activity equates to posting at least once an hour and low activity equates to doing it once every two hours (although both groups are pretty active compared to most humans). The bots also “slept” between 10 p.m. and 9 a.m. Pacific time to simulate the down time of human users.

    Having let the socialbots loose, the first question that Freitas and co wanted to answer was whether their charges could evade the defenses set up by Twitter to prevent automated posting. “…38 out of the 120 socialbots were suspended,” they say. In other words, 69 percent of the social bots escaped detection.

    The more interesting question, though, was whether the social bots can successfully infiltrate the social groups they were set up to follow. And on that score the results are surprising. Over the duration of the experiment, the 120 socialbots received a total of 4,999 follows from 1,952 different users. And more than 20 percent of them picked up over 100 followers…

    http://www.zerohedge.com/news/2014-06-10/artificial-intelligence-here-socialbots-turing-tests

    Then there’s this, to stereotype

    Gender also played a role. While male and female bots were equally effective when considered overall, female social bots were much more effective at generating followers among the group of socially connected software developers. “This suggests that the gender of the socialbots can make a difference if the target users are gender-biased,” say Freitas and pals.

  7. Clemgeopin 7

    That email is a scoop and a shocker.

    If just ONE email can reveal SO MUCH of secrets, dishonesty, BS, deception, spin and lies, just imagine HOW MUCH of this kind of crap actually exists within this lousy government!

    I hope the voters will kick this rogue government out.

  8. minarch 8

    Its sad to see our public health officials so ill informed

    http://www.nzherald.co.nz/opinion/news/article.cfm?c_id=466&objectid=11271358

    • hysterical marijuana-madness agit-prop..

      ..and he is a bloody health-beaurocrat..that is his ‘area of expertise’..f.f.s..!

      ..may as well ask the bloke standing next to you at the bus-stop..

      ..i posted a blistering comment there..

      ..i doubt it will get past the censors…

      • Molly 8.1.1

        … gave it a thumbs up Phil, along with the majority of comments there which put the author in his place…

        • phillip ure 8.1.1.1

          @ molly..chrs..

          ..i like the thumbs-up..do you like the thimbs-up..?

          ..and funny story re farrar/kiwiblog/thumbs-up/down….

          ..i’m sure it was coincidence..

          ..but he canned his system..at about the same time i was getting about equal numbers of ups..as the expected shower of automatic-down-ticks from the local swamp-denizens..

          ..probably just coincidence..

    • framu 8.2

      he cites stats but fails to even mention correlation vs causation – pretty dumb for a health pro

    • john 8.3

      He looks the opposite – very well informed.

      • phillip ure 8.3.1

        ‘informed’..?..bullshit..!

        ..compare the words/hysterical-claims from this bureaucrat..

        ..with the heads of a&e’s..those on the frontline..

        ..who during the legal-high brouhaha repeatedly said that people never ‘presented’ to them from using cannabis..

        ..this bureaucrat is just spouting total lies..

        ..and is a fucken joke.!

        • One Anonymous Bloke 8.3.1.1

          There are other ways to “present” than at a&e. I can tell you don’t like Dr. Bromley’s message, so here’s some friendly advice: shooting the messenger undermines your argument, not his.

          • phillip ure 8.3.1.1.1

            given he is leaning on his bullshit beaurocrat-role to claim heft/credibility to spout on this subject..

            ..it is most certainly appropriate to hold his ‘qualifications to speak’ up to scrutiny..

            ..and him as a bloody beaurocrat..up against the heads of the a& e’s..

            ..especially when the beaurocrat makes the patently false claim of people turning up at a & e..seeking help after smoking pot..?

            ..as a messanger..this comparison shows him in his true-light..

            ..a beaurocrat..orifice-plucking prohibitionist-lies/bullshit..

            • One Anonymous Bloke 8.3.1.1.1.1

              A qualified public health physician and you are…making the false claim that he mentions a&e…

              • if you think i am hard on him..go and read the comments thread below his story..

                ..he gets totally monstered..every which way..(and they posted mine..(!)..)

                (here is just one example of the unpacking of his bullshit..)

                “..”More than 14,000 clients are seen by our Community Alcohol and Drug Services each year. Of these, more than 15 per cent present with issues relating to cannabis use.”

                thats 2100 people

                1) how much of this is correlation vs causation?
                2) what % have pre-existing mental health issues?
                3) what % have other developmental or environmental issues? (eg: abusive home environments)
                4) what % are being sent from the courts (go to jail or go to rehab is a common option)
                5) how does this compare to alcohol dependency and other related issues
                6) how does this compare to countries where cannabis has been made legal? What has their experience been?

                youve failed to even raise these aspects – and the answers to them cast a very different light on your quoting of stats without context

                massive fail dr dale..”

                • One Anonymous Bloke

                  Phil, just quietly, making patently false claims about someone isn’t “being hard on them” – it’s giving them an opportunity to laugh at you, or more likely, gently point out your error so as to bolster their argument.

                  The questions you cite are of quite a different calibre, but then, you didn’t ask them.

        • john 8.3.1.2

          The world leading Otago Uni Study found a 150-250% increase in mental issues in regular cannabis users over non users, particularly in teenagers.

          It also found higher rates of school dropout, and university attendance, even when adjusted for social background.

          I was in Colorado in April and they now have significant increases in stoned kids at school, and increases in emergency department visits. This has included a number of young children who unknowingly ate dope cake and worryingly dope sweets which are now common.

          Just before we were ther one guy freaked out and jumped off a 6th storey balcony. While were were there another freaked out and thought the world was coming to an end after eating dope candy. His wife called the police, but by the time they got there he’d shot and killed his wife.

          There’s been over 30 house explosions from people trying to make hash – so many that the state is looking at stopping bulk butane sales.

          Simply pulling the blinkers down and labelling facts that you don’t agree with as “spouting total lies” shows a lack of intelligent thought.

          • minarch 8.3.1.2.1

            “Just last month a 19-year-old student jumped off a Denver hotel balcony after he REPORTEDLY consumed a marijuana cookie (but with the strength of six joints). In another case, a Denver man shot and killed his wife after eating cannabis-infused candy which caused him to hallucinate, though authorities suspect he may have been on OTHER DRUGS AS WELL”

            (caps are mine)

            reportedly
            adverb

            according to what some say (used to express the speaker’s belief that the information given is not necessarily true).

            http://www.natureworldnews.com/articles/6830/20140430/marijuana-related-deaths-spur-colorado-to-reconsider-legalization-laws.htm

            doesnt sound like they are to sure exactly what caused those deaths to me

          • phillip ure 8.3.1.2.2

            eating dope is a whole other ballgame..

            ..(with the recent freakout by new york times columnist maureen dowd being the latest example of this..)

            ..and using people feeling weird/bad from eating too much..as a reason to enforce prohibition..?

            ..and could you please provide some citations/links proving yr various colorado claims..

            ..as in my role aggregating news..i am sure i wd have noticed the wife-shooting-from-pot story you refer to,

            ..(here is my evidence/links/footnotes..)

            ..http://whoar.co.nz/?s=cannabis

            ..fill yer boots..eh..?

            ..and no mention from you about drops in crime/alcohol-consumption/a& e visits (from alcohol etc).. in colorado..?..eh..?

            ..no mention of the fact the economic value of cannabis in california alone is $23 billion a year..?

            ..and the huge amounts saved by taxpayers from not playing keystone-cops with pot-growers/sellers..?

            ..doesn’t fit with yr other gripping tales-of-shock/horror travel-anecdotes..?

            ..i’m calling ‘bullshit!’ on you..eh..?

            • One Anonymous Bloke 8.3.1.2.2.1

              Dr. Bromley confines his remarks to the aspects of smoking pot that he is qualified and experienced to comment on, so naturally he doesn’t mention its economic value to California.

              You’re not doing your cause any good. I think the pros of legalisation probably outweigh the cons, but pretending weed is benign (especially with such short-fuse vehemence) undermines your argument.

              • framu

                true – but i think hes over egging and simplifing in order to support prohibition

                ergo – just talking health issues doesnt prove the whole argument thats hes trying to make. Plus i think hes failing quite badly on the health angle by creating a few straw men on the way

                but thats just my opnion of course 🙂

              • Ad

                “pretending weed is benign (especially with such short-fuse vehemence) undermines your argument.”

                Thankyou.

            • john 8.3.1.2.2.2

              phil asks “.as in my role aggregating news..i am sure i wd have noticed the wife-shooting-from-pot story you refer to”

              It was all over the news in April. Perhaps you aggregating skills are not so sharp.

              Just google – colorado cannabis shooting – and you’ll find it reported in papers around the world, or …..

              http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2605601/Mom-44-shot-dead-kids-husband-hallucinating-eating-marijuana-cookie-13-minute-911-call.html

              • ‘daily mail’..heh…!

                ..i mean..that’s not an hysterical-rightwing rag..is it..?

                ..(and from yr link..didn’t you read past the headline..?

                “..A source told FOX31 investigators are looking at whether he had eaten a marijuana cookie..”

                ..hardly definitive cause/effect there…eh..?

                ..and hasn’t it been noted elsewhere that it is definite he was on serious/heavy back-pain meds..?

                ..you really are just pulling it out of yr arse..eh..?

                ..(but citing the daily mail as a serious-source..?..that’s worth a pot-giggle..or two..)

                • john

                  Are you so blinkered you think pain killers make you think the world is ending, ask to be shot, then kill your wife, in front of your children.

                  (and it’s just some amazing coincidence that he’d just taken a massive does of dope candy)

                  Or that a story published in papers around the world (even in pro cannabis websites) must be wrong because one news outlet you don’t like was one of the many who published it.

                  • framu

                    from the exact same article

                    ” A source told FOX31 investigators are looking at whether he had eaten a marijuana cookie.”

                    calm down – breathe through your nose – and read

                    the article doesnt say what you claim it does

                    • john translates this:..

                      “.. A source told FOX31 investigators are looking at whether he had eaten a marijuana cookie.”

                      into this:..

                      “..(and it’s just some amazing coincidence that he’d just taken a massive does of dope candy)..”

                      ..the man is a total joke..not a word of his can be relied on..

                      ..that translation proves that..

                      ..how can it not..?..

              • Daveosaurus

                It was all over the news in April.

                This may come as a surprise to you, but not everything that is published in the news on the 1st of April is the actual unvarnished truth.

                You may also find yourself in for a surprise when (or if) the local dopeheads actually get off their fat arses and set up a petition for a referendum on the decriminalisation of dope. The prohibitionists are very lucky that so far the dopeheads have been too high to care.

          • framu 8.3.1.2.3

            “The world leading Otago Uni Study found a 150-250% increase in mental issues in regular cannabis users over non users, particularly in teenagers.”

            could be why the pro legalisation argument is against youths smoking pot – which is already happening

            and can you explain how all these horror stories youve cited are fixed via the illegal status of cannabis?

            • john 8.3.1.2.3.1

              framu “could be why the pro legalisation argument is against youths smoking pot – which is already happening”

              Which is a nonsense, because as soon as it’s legalised it will be far more common in schools, just like what is happening in Colorado, and just like what happened with legal highs.

              When legal highs came in, absentees in our local high school skyrocketed – and there was supposed to be an R18 ban on that.

              • don’t use legal-highs as a comparison with pot..(that’s just silly..)

                ..so just following yr harm-reduction prescriptions..(been in a city centre after midnight lately..?..colorado has seen booze-sales drop since ending prohibition..)

                ..surely the tinnie houses closing..and availability from licensed-premises..

                ..would be moving in the direction you want..

                ..as any 14 yr old now..knows where the local-tinnie houses are..

                ..that’s the thing with you prohibitionist-fools..

                ..you can’t think beyond whatever small shard of ‘fact’ you are clinging to/hanging yr claims off..

                ..eh..?

                ..that accompanied by epic logic-fails..

                • and what’s yr favourite ‘poison’ there john..?..(hic..!..eh..?..)

                  ..mine’s pot..

                  .you..?

                  • i don’t use your (legal) drugs of choice..

                    ..(or are you teetotal/straight-edge..?..)

                    ..because of the clear/proven harm they cause..

                    ..especially to those young people you purport to be thinking/fretting over..

                    ..eh..?

                    • no answer there john..?..i’ll repeat it for you..

                      ..what brand/type of recreational drugs do you yourself use..

                      ..alcohol..?..perchance..?..

                      ..’hanging out for ‘a cold one’..are ya..?

              • framu

                you havent disproved anything ive said

                and as for the increased use – your getting a bit hysterical. Other countries have liberalised drug laws – so why keep focusing on colorado?

                And you do realise that a spike in use, followed by a decline is pretty much accepted as what happens when you liberalise anything?

                “and there was supposed to be an R18 ban on that.” – which leads to what conclusion john? – maybe we prosecute those shops just like if an off license did the same thing perhaps?

                and i hope youve twigged to the fact that black markets dont need proof of age ID

                • john

                  And R18 stops kids getting alcohol.

                  Yeah right, that’ll work.

                  Colorado now has dealers who are 9 years old, children being admitted to emergency departments – 6 so far in a critical state.

                  I see you don’t like the example of Colorado – too many bad things happening there.

                  The reason it’s a good example is because it has only just been legalised (not just decriminalized, there’s better information on what has been happening there than many places, and I’ve recently been there so was more familiar with all the local stories in the Denver Post etc.

                  • Colonial Viper

                    Colorado now has dealers who are 9 years old, children being admitted to emergency departments – 6 so far in a critical state.

                    Links please.

                  • framu

                    grow up john – your acting like youve got a case of the vapours

                    “and i hope youve twigged to the fact that black markets dont need proof of age ID”

                    your utterly failing to address anything anyone is saying to you

                    do you know your history? – what happened during prohibition?

                  • minarch

                    “Colorado now has dealers who are 9 years old’

                    oh come on now….

                    • t think he must be ‘high’..eh..?..that john..

                      ..i guess those ‘nine year old dealers’ have got the pre-scool market sewed up..?

                      ..you have now switched from prohibitionist..to comedian..

                      ..and chrs for that laff..eh..?

                      ..what’s next..?

                      ..nine year old dealer-children injecting marijuana into their eyes..using hypodermic-syringes..?

                      ..you’ll have to escalate/ramp it up..eh..?

                      ..so..in a nutshell..should/when we end prohibition..

                      ..we will have to keep our eyes open/steel ourselves for swarms of ‘nine-year-old-dealers’.eh..?

                      ..thanks for the heads-up..!

                      ..should we call them nyods..?

                      ..d’yareckon..?

                      ..can you smell a new moral-panic fermenting..?

                      ..you’re funny..!

                    • framu

                      john – can you explain how prohibition would fix this?

                    • Colonial Viper

                      It’s the US. Fourth graders take guns to school and shoot their teachers. So? Tradeable amounts of marijuana have been found in NZ high schools before. So?

                  • David H

                    “Colorado now has dealers who are 9 years old, children being admitted to emergency departments – 6 so far in a critical state.”

                    Now how about a reputable link. And not just some hysterical right wing chip wrapper.

              • geoff

                Perhaps those potential issues can be addressed with all the money saved by not clogging our justice system with cannabis infractions.

                Don’t you agree, John?

                • john

                  What cannabis convictions clogging our justice system?

                  There’s virtually none.

                  It’s pretty difficult to get done for cannabis unless you’ve also committed a more serious crime. You’ve virtually got to blow the smoke into the cops face before you’ll get done JUST for smoking.

                  Conviction numbers have been coming down for years.

                  For example of 365 people jailed for cannabis use in 2008, 355 has also committed another more serious crime like assault, burglary, car conversion etc.

                  Only one of the other ten had no prior convictions.

                  • minarch

                    In my experience they are most likely just to take your stash for themselves…

                  • framu

                    yeah youve failed to address the point again john – pretty sure geoff is talking cost across the entire justice system (police courts and prisons) not numbers of court cases by themselves

                    you really need to stop shooting from the hip

                    • john

                      What – from one person who went to prison for a month?

                      Yeah – that’s really clogging up the system.

                    • framu

                      what amount of $$ does NZ spend per year in policing, prosecuting and imprisoning cannabis users and growers?

                      your being a real dick about this john

                  • minarch

                    look at the whole switched on gardener debacle…

                    A FOAF was working there when this went down,

                    The officer assigned to his case had been seconded from the serious adult sexual assault squad to chase around and fit up garden shop employes for two years instead…..

                    How many rapists got away scot-free because she (the officer) was parked out side a garden shop writing down license plate numbers of people buying potting mix and pumice…

                    priorities all f##ked up there or what ?

              • framu

                and can you explain how all these horror stories youve cited are fixed via the illegal status of cannabis?

              • bad12

                The Sky is Falling right john, as the sky has been falling befor every piece of social liberalization befor, strange how this doom never quite arrives…

                • john

                  The problems of critically ill kids being admitted to Colorado Hospitals doesn’t suddenly dissappear because NZ has passed previous social liberalization laws.

                  It would be hard to find a weaker or more tenuous argument than that.

                  There are clearly pros and cons to decriminalisation/legalisation.

                  Being deliberately blind to the problems shows incredible narrow mindedness.

                  • bad12

                    Nice of you to stick around john after last night’s little bout of pleasantries, point out to me wont you john, if your latest little chirp is directed at me where in my commenting history here at the Standard i have been deliberately blind to either the pro’s or con’s of Legalizing Marijuana,

                    Perhaps john you need to educate yourself via the NZ Poisons Center on the number of children involved, many fatally, with perfectly legal products who then need hospitalization from having involved themselves…

                  • framu

                    you are the one being deliberately blind with your refusal to even admit when others have a point or where youve been shown the errors in what your saying

                  • minarch

                    their not critically ill,

                    cannabis is NON-TOXIC by any standard toxicity test

                    their just stoned

                    • john

                      The Colorado Childrens Hospital says they were critically ill.

                      You’re totally delusional if you expect us to believe your word over that of the medical experts who saw the children.

                      “Wednesday’s move in Colorado to tighten rules on edible goods made with pot comes after two adult deaths possibly linked to such products. Meanwhile, a Colorado children’s hospital said it has seen an uptick in the number of admissions of children who ingested marijuana-laced foods since the start of the year.

                      “Since the … legalization of recreational marijuana sales, Children’s Colorado has treated nine children, six of whom became critically ill from edible marijuana,” the statement from Colorado Children’s Hospital said.

                      The first law signed by the governor on Wednesday creates a task force to devise packaging for cannabis-infused edibles such as cookies and candy that makes those products readily distinguishable from regular foods.

                      “Sadly, cases of children ingesting marijuana are on the rise in Colorado,” said state Senator Mike Johnston, the bill’s primary sponsor. “By improving labeling and giving kids a way to tell the difference between a snack and a harmful substance, we can keep kids … out of the emergency room.”

                      http://www.reuters.com/article/2014/05/22/us-marijuana-colorado-idUSBREA4L02U20140522

                    • Colonial Viper

                      Yep giving children access to restricted drugs intended for adults only is highly detrimental and should not be permitted.

                    • framu

                      so it seems the issue is that they didnt have standards in place that addressed edibles

                      something the pro legalise camp actually pointed out a while ago

                      can you explain how prohibition would fix this?

                      i also note that on several lines of argument youve gone a bit quiet when challenged or been rebutted but you pop up elsewhere only to, yet again, focus on a single line and use that to take things out of context and avoid the point someone is making – why?

                    • minarch

                      critically ill would infer there is some risk of lasting damage/symptoms

                      after a good night sleep and thorough telling off (both for them and their parents) and they would be fine…

                    • McFlock

                      you never know – they might have been hyperglycaemic from hash brownies 🙂

                    • minarch

                      sugar is dangerous S**t !

                      i think a ban in in order, I mean think of the children !

          • framu 8.3.1.2.4

            also – wasnt the increased risk amongst those who already had a risk of mental health issues?

            ie: it exacerbates not causes

            • minarch 8.3.1.2.4.1

              or possibly people with mental health issues have found that cannabis offers them some relief that the heavy sedation they are offered by their doctors cannot

          • Tracey 8.3.1.2.5

            when the brain is still developing it should not be dealing with drugs, alcohol or tobacco as well. Jmho

      • framu 8.3.2

        then why are his arguments so full of logic holes? (and outright nonsense)

        • john 8.3.2.1

          If you want to argue against something, it’s customary to say what it is, rather than being so totally vague to be meaningless.

          • framu 8.3.2.1.1

            “He looks the opposite – very well informed.”

            then dont start your own argument the same way

            Ok – issue 1 – he utterly misrepresents the legalisation argument

            issue 2 – he mentions addictiveness – but doesnt discuss psychological vs physical addiction

            issue 3 – he quotes a statistic but doesnt address correlation vs causation and how that compares to legal drugs here and the experiences of countries that have more liberal cannabis laws

            look john – myself, and others can keep going here – for a very long time.

            • john 8.3.2.1.1.1

              I know – pro cannabis people like Phil are probably the best argument the anti side has.

              People who blindly ignore factors like the damage it does to teenage brains, the mental issues it causes, the deterioration in learning and qualifications, more absentees from school, etc – score points AGAINST their own argument.

              • framu

                sorry didnt realise phil was the pot jesus whos will must be obeyed

                and whos ignoring the downside? point them out

                maybe, just maybe, the pro camp acutally recognises that there are down sides but wants to actually debate the issue instead of trying to shut it down like you are doing

                theres been plenty of salient points raised both here and in the responses @ the herald – but i dont see you engaging with anything other than “wont some one think of the children?”

                are you mrs lovejoy?

              • funny story..!

                ..colorado has seen a large increase in cannabis use..since legalisation..

                ..but not by the young..(i guess those that wanted to smoke already were..eh..?.)

                ..legal or illegal..(hold that thought..!..eh..?..)

                ..but by those aged in their 40’s..50’s..60’s…

                ..those who did when they were younger..or didn’t because it was illegal..

                ..and now can..

                ..and who the fuck are you to tell adults they can’t do that..?

                • john

                  phillip ure says “.colorado has seen a large increase in cannabis use..since legalisation..

                  ..but not by the young.”

                  Wrong.

                  The addiction centre at the University of Colorado has had such an increase in young people presenting for cannabis addiction that it has had to double it’s staff, just since last year.

                  • framu

                    youve got this alarming habit of using a single data point and extrapolating it to somehow claim a comprehensive data set

                    FFS! – The increase in people presenting at a single addiciton center, without any info on why and how they are presenting has only a correlatory link (at best) to total use increases or decreases in a given age group across an entire city

                    its bullshit – and frankly it just makes you look like youve got absolutely no idea and arent that interested in challenging your prejudices or expanding your knowledge

                    so… instead of being a twat about things maybe stop flapping your arms about and consider and engage with the points people are raising – youve missed all the hard ones and focused on out of context distractions.

                    That john, is the first identifier of a bad faith debater.

      • minarch 8.3.3

        I think hed been drinking when he wrote that article…

      • minarch 8.3.4

        Legalizing Medical Marijuana Does Not Correlate with Increased Teen Usage, Study Finds

        he research is based on a study of 20 years of data taken from US states with and without medical marijuana laws.

        http://www.natureworldnews.com/articles/6728/20140424/legalizing-medical-marijuana-does-not-correlate-with-increased-teen-usage-study-finds.htm

      • minarch 8.3.5

        well informed

        or overpaid ?

  9. Puckish Rogue 9

    http://www.stuff.co.nz/national/politics/10143901/David-Cunliffe-hits-out-at-Conservative-coat-tailing

    • So of course we can expect Cunliffe to announce he’ll have nothing to do with any other party that coat tails?
    • One Anonymous Bloke 9.1

      Can you? I think your expectations and opinions are entirely worthless, and the notion that the leader of the NZLP would dance to your dissonant cacophony is just laughable.

    • Clemgeopin 9.2

      No, you can’t expect that because once the VOTERS have voted as THEY wish, Labour will have to respect their decision and form the coalition with the progressive parties the VOTERS have given. The voters are the masters here, not the politicians.

  10. Colonial Viper 10

    US: 2/3 of Gen X less well off than their parents were at the same age

    My generation. In the US the combined impact of the GFC on employment, home values and investment returns as cut the mid 30 to mid 40’s population off at the knees.

    Projections are that this crowd will have to retire on less than half their current day to day income, in general, compared to 60% or more for current retirees.

    http://www.zerohedge.com/news/2014-06-10/generation-xterminate-only-third-gen-x-households-had-more-wealth-their-parents-held

  11. Flying Keewee 11

    For discussion:

    http://www.nakedcapitalism.com/2014/06/yanis-varoufakis-europes-crisis-the-rise-of-the-ultra-right-is-the-lefts-fault.html

    and in particular many of the comments supporting the argument that by seemingly accepting the premis that the social safety-net and socialism in general can be met within a capitalist system, ‘the Left’ in Europe effectively capitulated years ago leaving anyone not wishing to go along with the thoroughly captured mainstream no choices but on the extreme Right.

    Regrettably I see the same process here in New Zealand, with Labour seeking nothing more than to slightly humanise capitalism rather than espousing true Socialism – an inevitable race to the bottom – and now a strong fight from what passes for the Left to drag the Greens the same way.

    • Draco T Bastard 11.1

      Faustian bargains come, alas, with clauses written in blood. Europe’s social democrats, lured by the cacophony of money-making in the financial sector, numbed by the myth of some ‘Great Moderation’, and excited by the mystical notion of ‘riskless risk’, agreed to let finance free to do as it pleased in exchange for funds with which to prop up welfare states that were relics of a bygone post-war social contract. That was the social democrats’ game.

      And that is exactly what Labour have been doing for the last thirty years.

      • Colonial Viper 11.1.1

        Where’s the vision of a different future? Do our politicians really think that BAU is going to last for even another 30 years as energy depletion accelerates and climate change takes hold?

        Or is this merely a game of pretend and extend so they can ride the gravy train while things remain relatively good for the 5%?

        • Draco T Bastard 11.1.1.1

          Where’s the vision of a different future?

          Zeitgeist: Moving Forward
          There’s one.

          Do our politicians really think that BAU is going to last for even another 30 years as energy depletion accelerates and climate change takes hold?

          Most of them seem to, yes.

          Or is this merely a game of pretend and extend so they can ride the gravy train while things remain relatively good for the 5%?

          I’m certain at least some will be doing that as well.

          • Colonial Viper 11.1.1.1.1

            The zeitgeist stuff is interesting and there is some good there. But as you know, I’m not interested in advanced untested systems which require huge amounts of financial and technological input to construct.

            For instance, I’d be far more interested if you were an advocate for bringing 90nm semiconductor fabrication technology to NZ, as opposed to the very latest 22nm tech.

  12. veutoviper 12

    Kim Dotcom tweeted in the last hour

    Breaking: US Court just granted our motion for a stay of all pending civil action by Hollywood against Megaload and myself.

    It will be interesting to see whether this affects the recent filing in the NZ High Court of civil action by Hollywood film and recording studios seeking to freeze all KDC’s assets.

    The latest on the latter took place in court in Auckland on Monday with KDC and the studios’ legal counsel told to go away and sort out surety before coming back to court on 26 June.

    http://t.co/HMarBBF7cS

    • Ad 12.1

      If only the New Zealand Police had the patience to wait for this before kicking his door down.

    • bad12 12.2

      It could be that, suggested by the recent filings at the Courts here in New Zealand, that the ”studio’s” had already ascertained from the events thus far in the US Courts that the likely outcome would be failure,

      IF, the Court action in the US has indeed been ‘Stayed’ then this must have ramifications not only for the recently filed actions here in New Zealand but in essence must also effect how our Courts approach the demand for DotCom’s extradition,

      There are no real grounds for an extradition where the case against an accused is for any reason in-actionable in the country asking for the extradition,

      This could be a huge win for DotCom, checkmate in fact…

      • Colonial Viper 12.2.1

        So…when are those NZ citizenship papers coming through?

        • Tracey 12.2.1.1

          speaking of citizens… I understand maurice williamson personalgave mr liu his citizenship certificate in his office… And now it appears mr liu is heading for discharfe without conviction… He has done well at his counselling… Or is it his interpreter who ha done well…

          I digress, but i am annoyed

      • Tracey 12.2.2

        by stay the civil stuff til the criminal stuff is dealt with, dotcom can focus his legal efforts on one front. I think that is what these civil suits were designed to do, pull dotcom in several directions at once.

    • One Anonymous Bloke 12.3

      KDC’s US lawyer was on the radio the other day, saying that the studios knew they had no criminal case so they were trying for a win on procedure rather than arguments.

      Looks like he won the procedural battle.

      Dreams are free 😀

    • Watching 12.4

      I thought the Hollywood action was a civil case & nothing to do with the extradition? While the FBI case was criminal one & the extradition being sought is part of a NZ/US extradition agreement?

      Can anyone be extradition to/from NZ for a civil case?

      • Bearded Git 12.4.1

        My understanding is civil cases cannot be used as a reason for extradition.

        I haven’t got a source for this but have heard it said and read it in the media. I’m sure a quick google would confirm it.

      • Tracey 12.4.2

        i have commented just above. My understanding is extradition is for criminal only, which is why the fbi became involved, imo. The music and movie owners have alot of power. We have seen how tat power flexed over the hobbit and resulted in law changes and rebates.

  13. Rosie 13

    WooHoo! Episodes 5 & 6 of the satirical web series “NZ Idle: Friends with unemployment benefits” is now on line.

    http://thewireless.co.nz/articles/web-series-nz-idle-episodes-1-6

  14. Puckish Rogue 14

    http://www.stuff.co.nz/business/better-business/10142070/Work-trial-helps-disadvantaged

    • The good news just keeps on coming and all the left can do is try to be negative 🙂
    • One Anonymous Bloke 14.1

      It must be true: Stephen Joyce says so.

      Other key points of the report:

      Trial periods are generally imposed as a standard clause without negotiation in employment agreements. Most workers surveyed did not know that trial periods were negotiable (p 43).

      Employers, employees, unions and employment experts have all indicated that 90 day trials have encouraged some employers to adopt short term hire and fire patterns (p 40).

      That must be good, right, because Stephen says so.

      No, wait, this just in, it turns out you’re a witless dupe. Who knew?

      • ianmac 14.1.1

        A relative involved with HR says that the 90 day is seldom enacted because the prospective employee has to sign up for it to get a start. I guess no sign – no job?

        • One Anonymous Bloke 14.1.1.1

          Anecdata.

          This from the CTU’s response to the report:

          Last year 27% of employers dismissed at least one person on a trial period. This is up from 19% the year before. Since at least 69,000 employers used trial periods this equates to tens of thousands of workers dismissed.

      • framu 14.1.2

        didnt they survey something like 12 businesses?

        i remember the intial 90 day surveys were like this – could be wrong though

      • Tracey 14.1.3

        we were assured that no employers would use the 90 day trial for short term hire and fire, so tgat must be untrue.

    • karol 14.2

      Good news for profiteering employers, not so good news for workers.

      The Stuff report focuses on what some employers say, and mainly repeats the MBIE press release.

      The actual report is pretty damning of the government’s law changes.

      “There is no evidence that 90 day trial periods have led to the creation of a single job. In fact it shows that tens of thousands of workers are being dismissed under 90 day trials each year. There’s not a shred of evidence that trial periods have created any additional employment – which was the primary justification the government provided for wanting to implement this law change.
      [..]

      There is no evidence that it has helped disadvantaged workers find jobs. Instead they are more vulnerable to being laid off.
      […]

      “Cashing up of annual leave is being used primarily by workers on low incomes to supplement their inadequate take home pay in lieu of a pay increase (within the context that 46% didn’t get a pay rise last year). The purpose of annual leave is to provide workers with an opportunity to spend time with their families, and for rest and recreation. The opportunity to have a break has been proven to have a positive impact on productivity.“ Kelly said.

      • Tracey 14.2.1

        evidence? Steven joyce doesnt deliver evidence

        • Draco T Bastard 14.2.1.1

          And the RWNJs like Puckish Rogue won’t believe the evidence anyway.

          • Tracey 14.2.1.1.1

            fizzy and co read whaleoil and kiwiblog, which are largely based on nact press releases and strategic leaks. We have seen this morning how our pm is operated…

          • Puckish Rogue 14.2.1.1.2

            Evidence isn’t as important as a headline in the paper because most people will skim read the headline but rarely will they delve deeply enough to try to work out if whats being said is the “truth”

            Much like the MSM habit of pimping out of the poor

            • Draco T Bastard 14.2.1.1.2.1

              Evidence is the most important thing ever. If you’re making decisions while ignoring the evidence, as National and other RWNJs do, then you’re making the wrong decisions.

            • Tracey 14.2.1.1.2.2

              its not a game., other than those who benefit from your mindset are as disproportionately rewarded as professional sportsmen.

            • McFlock 14.2.1.1.2.3

              PR proudly boasts that the tory press use misleading headlines to hide the truth from the electorate.

              sigh…

    • millsy 14.3

      It is really sad that the only reason why a worker would be taken on is because they can be gotten rid of the next day.

      I really don’t like being expendable. Slaves in 1850’s Mississippi were treated better than this.

  15. ianmac 15

    Interesting that those who signed up as members of the fledgling Internet Party are also being urgently asked to join the upgraded Internet/Mana Party to satisfy the requirements of the Electoral Commission. Cost .99cents. I will not vote for them but reckon that they deserve a fair go.

    • bad12 15.1

      Link for the Lazy by any chance ianmac…

      • ianmac 15.1.1

        To set up this umbrella party we need to register it with the Electoral Commission. We need 550 members of either party to sign-up to the new party to do this.

        Can you help? We’d very much appreciate it if you could join Internet MANA today!

        It costs NZ$0.99 cents for a 3 year membership. We are working to a very tight deadline and would like to send in the details of the 550 new members by this Friday, so we get registered in time to contest the election.

        We have a website set up to enable members to join the new party: https://internetmana.org.nz/

        • idlegus 15.1.1.1

          thanks. & done.

        • bad12 15.1.1.2

          Tah much ianmac, i will get to it…

          • bad12 15.1.1.2.1

            What’s going on here then???, the Link above takes me to a blank white page with four little black squares in the middle, and no further,

            i type in the complete URL and it takes me to nothing much really, the closest i could find was a similar Internet Party URL that had no Mana attached to it,(my little joke),

            Bringing up the page gets me another blank white page and for a difference there are four purple squares in the middle of it, and no further can i go,

            i just feel so excluded, Lolz, like a non-person…

            • bad12 15.1.1.2.2.1

              Thank you both for coming, i sort of got that, that it was the loading page that is, NOW, a pearl of wisdom please gentlemen,

              What stops me from going past the loading page, my PC or their website(s)…

              • veutoviper

                Are you using Internet Explorer?

                I had the same thing with the Internet Party’s website which does not open in IE (for me anyway) and have just tried the IMP site and cannot get past the four black squares page. BUT I can open both using Google Chrome, the only other Internet browser I have and use rarely. Don’t use Firefox but expect that would open both websites.

                I am an ignoramous with respect to these things, but that has been my experience.

            • Clemgeopin 15.1.1.2.2.2

              Click on the button that says NEXT .

              • veutoviper

                I don’t get a NEXT button. Clem when I try using IE – just a message saying “you are using an outdated browser. Please update your browser to view this page”.

                • Clemgeopin

                  I use firefox.

                  The first page IS a little confusing because they have 4 square panels on the left with the EMAIL panel highlighted, but does not allow you to put your email in there even though you can sort of click on it!

                  On the right, there is a NEXT button that takes you to the correct page!

                  I just went there to take a look. One has to be a member of at least one of the alliance parties to register for Internet-MANA. I am not. So did not apply to me anyway.

                  May be you should send them an email to set it up better.

  16. bad12 16

    Slippery must be contagious, the staff apparently released briefing papers to a member of the press by ‘accident’,(perhaps the PM should treat the hired help with far more respect),

    This Slip-up from the office of the Slippery one himself casts the PM in the role of Sock-Puppet having to be fed His lines over even the most mundane of matters like a Cabbage being fed fertilizer,

    It shows too, when asked a question in a press conference that hasn’t been addressed by those that pull the strings of the Puppet, Slippery gives the impression of being a very blank slate, its all a bit like watching a five year old being tested, when the answers are known the five year old lights up like a christmas tree decoration, the other way round tho He at times looks like He might like to be gifted an axe when a query leaves Him even shorter of a clue than normal…

    • Tracey 16.1

      dude, the first post in this thread is about that.

      • bad12 16.1.1

        So it does Tracey, my habit of reading from the bottom up unless i am here very early in the piece had me reading everything But,

        Having got as far as the comments surrounding Slippery’s exact point in time of knowing of DotCom i assumed the first comment to be in the same vein and not being particularly interested in the question didn’t bother to read further,

        Dude???, please anything but Dude, in my world queer Americans call each other Dude,(that might get a winter warming debate going), hell even being addressed as you fat bastard figures on the scale here far higher than Dude…

  17. anker 17

    I have noticed the original article by the Herald has disappeared off stuff, and now the only reference to it under an article about the cost of UN junket was from an Australian paper in the Whitsundays.

    Typical msm.

    • bad12 17.1

      How bout that tho, Pimping for a seat on the UN Security Council with a ride up a gondola and ”gifts” in the form of some soft fluffy toys from a Queenstown gift shop,

      Slippery the Prime Ministers justification for such an attempted buy has it that the Aussies spend far more when attempting to buy UN votes,

      There’s only one creature lower on the planet than a Pimp and that’s a Cheap Pimp, the PM is exhibiting all the traits of the latter while adding to His resume with the reference to spilling the beans on the Aussies a degree in Narcing…

      • minarch 17.1.1

        “There’s only one creature lower on the planet than a Pimp and that’s a Cheap Pimp”

        pure gold 🙂

  18. Draco T Bastard 18

    Chinese group launches app to shame polluters

    The app gives, where available, hourly updates on emissions reported by factories to local authorities and shows the plants as color-coded points on a map, with violators of emissions limits in red. It also gives government air pollution data for areas throughout the country.

    Wonder if our government would be willing to do the same. It’s certainly something the we, as a country, need to know about. Should probably include rivers and harbours in that as well.

    • Colonial Viper 18.1

      Shaming isn’t a bad way ahead, but better if it was backed by proper standards and prosecutions.

      • Draco T Bastard 18.1.1

        The standards, shaming and prosecutions are all part of the same thing – ensuring that the people know what’s actually happening and ensuring that they have a voice to change it.

        It’s like our clean and green image – people believe it because they were told that we were and they could go down to the beach and take a swim. It’s only been recently, as the knowledge of how we’ve been polluting our country badly came out, that that that image of clean and green got challenged. An app like this with real time reporting of pollution will help us shift to being more sustainable.

  19. Draco T Bastard 19

    Genius

  20. blue leopard 20

    Interesting article here, about the culture of British elites sending their kids to boarding schools and how this forms bad characteristics for leadership.

    http://www.theguardian.com/education/2014/jun/09/boarding-schools-bad-leaders-politicians-bullies-bumblers?CMP=fb_gu

    For me, the same reasoning can be applied to the high incidence of psychopathic traits of people in leading positions and why this makes for bad leadership. I believe the financial crisis wouldn’t have occurred (amongst other things) if psychopathic traits weren’t being so worshipped by our culture.

    • Populuxe1 20.1

      Bollocks. Firstly it was written by a psychotherapist who has made a niche with boarders and is probably touting for trade, if not flogging a book.
      It’s also rubbish science – no falsifiable claims, no testable hypotheses, some pretty rash claims about people that the writer has obviously never ever had a session with (and it’s pretty bloodly unprofessionable to be making those sorts of guesses about public figures anyway.
      Furthermore you can probably find as many good leaders and charitable, kind people who went to boarding school as didn’t and vice versa. It’s bullshit.

  21. Clemgeopin 21

    I hope the voters, 75% of whom are opposed to coat-tailing provision, will see through the corrupt ways of the right wing rogues and kick them out at the election. About the same number were also opposed to asset sales and the spying stuff.

    • bad12 21.1

      That’s a rather forlorn hope don’t you think Clemopin, despite asset sales, National were still re-elected…

      • Colonial Viper 21.1.1

        It’s Thorndon bubble thinking, believing that this kind of thing will lift Labour in the slightest.

      • Clemgeopin 21.1.2

        True and quite astounding! What is wrong with the people!

        …Although the result was tight and National were able to form their government of rogues with just one seat majority with the help of the discredited ‘willing buyer, willing seller’ Dunne and the electoral cabbage boat crook, Banks.

        Sad to see all the evil laws and schemes that this government managed to enact in their six years! A government working primarily for benefit of the wealthy and the privileged. What a disgrace!

        • Colonial Viper 21.1.2.1

          That’s all fine, just as long as you see that a reason not to vote National is not the same as a reason to vote Labour. Or actually, to vote at all, since perceptions of politician game playing tends to push the non-vote up overall.

        • Puckish Rogue 21.1.2.2

          What is wrong with the people!

          • From your perspective its bad but for a large amount of the population National is doing a good job of running the country so theres no reason to vote them out
          • Draco T Bastard 21.1.2.2.1

            You’re ignoring the evidence again.

            National is always bad for the country.

          • Tracey 21.1.2.2.2

            the peope are being misled. Joyce was at it again this morning. That you take some delight in this like it was a sports match is worse than sad because the lives of real people are in the mix.

  22. Less than 48 hrs until the opening game of the football world cup! I am very excited about this. I saw I had a positive reply to my post the other day in open mike, so if any are still interested my friend and I now have 2 articles each, plus a podcast at our football world cup blog

    http://9642-comic.tumblr.com/

    Come check if out if you have time. More posts will go up on Fridays and Tuesdays with podcasts on Sundays. This weeks podcast will be reviewing the opening few games (probably will be recorded on Sat morning after Netherlands v Spain.)

    • Clemgeopin 22.1

      Nice!

      I didn’t see any mention of the Opening ceremony details. That too is of much interest.

      • Tracey 22.1.1

        i love football. The world cup leaves me ambivalent as brasil runs roughshod over its people to spend billions bringing in these games. We see this all the time. Nations wasting money on what is just a big pr exercise, and i include our rugby world cup in that. Host cities make NO money from such events and waste valuable money better spent elsewhere.

        Will netherlands finally be able to play as a team? Been a manchester united fan for forty years so am watching their style with interest.

        Germany has been performing so well in europe club comps i never rule them out. Semis maybe…

        • You_Fool 22.1.1.1

          One of the interesting things is that the Brazilian people themselves are not being distracted by the shiny tournament that the government is flashing in front of them. They are proud to have it, will embrace and celebrate it, but at the same time are making quite well reasoned demands to be heard and that the billions spent on getting the country ready to host the WC could have been very easily spent on social issues.

          Also European teams don’t do well in South America, and this time will be no different. Argentina v Brazil final, with final score being Messi 2 Neymar 0

          • Tracey 22.1.1.1.1

            Sadly the money is already wastedn.

            • You_Fool 22.1.1.1.1.1

              So all that is left for them is to have a small Protests in front of some international cameras or boo the opening ceremony.

              • Tracey

                short of an arab spring, sadly, that will achieve bugger all. But i am glad they are venting and striking

                • Colonial Viper

                  Look at the state of the so-called “Arab Spring” now. Egypt? Libya? Syria? Bahrain? All cracked down or broken down. The US and allies have helped to crush it in favour of friendly regimes. Same decades old playbook.

          • millsy 22.1.1.1.2

            Personally I think that the FIFA World Cup (as well as the Olympic Games, etc) should be hosted in the same venue permanently. It would eliminate the horse trading and dodgy deals that we have had to put up with in these affairs, among other things…

            Switzerland, given its historic neutrality, seems to be the ideal venue.

        • Clemgeopin 22.1.1.2

          I have often in the past liked Germany’s game a lot, clean and well executed. Don’t know how they play now.

          I am not happy with the newish rules where players push each other roughly, pull shirts etc. Prefer to see just good ‘ball skills’ rather than this sort of carry on. What do you think?

          • Tracey 22.1.1.2.1

            When i started watching english football in the 70’s it could be pretty brutal viewing, punctuated by backs smashing the ball up front and making wingers sprint the ball down. When i first saw germant on tv at the 78 world cup i think, i fell in love with their technical style and making the ball work.

            They play pretty much that way today.

        • Te Reo Putake 22.1.1.3

          The general feeling in the Netherlands is that they will be lucky to make it out of the group stages (it’s a tough group), but if they do, then they will play Brasil in the quarters. Win that game and anything can happen. Louis van Gaal is a fantastic manager and he is especially good at getting the most out of relatively weak squads. So that bodes well for United, ho ho!

      • You_Fool 22.1.2

        we may have been remiss not to mention anything about it. My friend is planning an “other stuff” post on the other issues surrounding the tournament that is not football related, though it will be posted after the opening ceremony. I was actually considering early posts of this Friday’s posts to be Thursday evening, so the outcome of the opening game and what happens at the opening ceremony doesn’t invalidate everything we write!

        My post will be on my prediction on the performance of each team. Warning, I am an Argentinean fan so I am likely to talk them up.

    • swordfish 22.2

      I saw I had a positive reply to my post the other day

      Yep, I was that very bloke; I appreciate you guys going to all the trouble and I’ll definitely be following.

      I see you have vague memories of 86. You’re obviously a bit younger than me – Mexico 86 was my absolute fave. It was the last hurrah for a whole group of football legends from the 70s and early 80s now in the twilight of their careers, particularly in the Brazilian squad – Socrates, Junior, Edinho, and the great Zico. The France-Brazil Quarter Final was the real highlight for me. A very exciting game. (I was in my early 20s and playing competitive, social and Indoor football at the time. It was pure Football frenzy. Which is a little odd, because I’m the great-grandson of an early All Black, with Rugby always being very strong on my mother’s side of the family. And yet my older brother and I took to The Beautiful Game like ducks to water or duck-shooters to duck-shooting).

      And yet it seems Mexico 86 was far from the players; absolute fave. According to Zico in a fairly recent interview, such was the heat, the humidity and the severe difficulty of playing at such high altitude that most of the footballers he knew (not just the Brazilian squad) went home with less-than-positive memories (and not only because of Maradona’s Hand of God goal).

      West Germany 74 would be the earliest World Cup I remember, though I may possibly have one or two extremely vague memories of the Mexico 1970 one (last for Pele).

  23. Sorry phil but I do have to put this up and I’ll say thanks to you because because of your posts on this subject I’m a lot closer to a local-vegan diet – which is my goal.

    The first article is entitled “Can vegans stomach the unpalatable truth about quinoa?”

    Vegans embraced quinoa as a credibly nutritious substitute for meat. Unusual among grains, quinoa has a high protein content (between 14%-18%), and it contains all those pesky, yet essential, amino acids needed for good health that can prove so elusive to vegetarians who prefer not to pop food supplements.

    Sales took off. Quinoa was, in marketing speak, the “miracle grain of the Andes”, a healthy, right-on, ethical addition to the meat avoider’s larder (no dead animals, just a crop that doesn’t feel pain). Consequently, the price shot up – it has tripled since 2006 – with more rarified black, red and “royal” types commanding particularly handsome premiums.

    But there is an unpalatable truth to face for those of us with a bag of quinoa in the larder. The appetite of countries such as ours for this grain has pushed up prices to such an extent that poorer people in Peru and Bolivia, for whom it was once a nourishing staple food, can no longer afford to eat it.

    http://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2013/jan/16/vegans-stomach-unpalatable-truth-quinoa

    Peta’s response is entitled, “Eating quinoa may harm Bolivian farmers, but eating meat harms us all” which I found a bit disingenous because it didn’t fairly reflect the article imo.

    With hundreds of millions of hungry people worldwide, it is criminally wasteful to feed perfectly edible food to farmed animals in order to produce meat, rather than feeding it directly to people – especially when you consider that it takes 4.5 pounds of grain to make one pound of chicken meat and 7.3 pounds of grain to produce one pound of pork. Even fish on fish farms are fed up to five pounds of wild-caught fish in order to produce one pound of farmed-fish flesh. This is inefficiency at its worst.

    Yes, your beef or pork may be locally grown, but what about the animals’ feed? Vegans aren’t gobbling up all the soybeans – cattle are. A staggering 97% of the world’s soya crop is fed to livestock. It would take 40m tonnes of food to eliminate the most extreme cases of world hunger, yet nearly 20 times that amount of grain – a whopping 760m tonnes – is fed to farmed animals every year in order to produce meat. The world’s cattle alone consume enough food to sustain nine billion people, which is what the world’s human population is projected to be by 2050.

    http://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2013/jan/22/quinoa-bolivian-farmers-meat-eaters-hunger

    I really like this debate because it is one of those topics that cut across so much and is directly related to our future on this planet.

    • marty mars 23.1

      Some additional analysis of the above

      http://ain-bolivia.org/2011/05/bolivian-quinoa-questions-production-and-food-security/

      I’m aware these articles are old but some useful statistics and spin that make them worth assessing – and then we have actual subject matter too.

    • “..I’ll say thanks to you because because of your posts on this subject I’m a lot closer to a local-vegan diet – which is my goal…

      chrs v. much for that..

      ..i don’t use quinoa myself..

      ..partly ‘cos of those political reasons..

      ..here is my quinoa-cache..recipies and political stuff..

      http://whoar.co.nz/?s=quinoa

      ..and re the butter..i can’t stand those spreads..but find that either avo or hummus covers most situations..

      • phillip ure 23.2.1

        and don’t get me started on peta..

        ..their ‘animal-shelters’ are killing-fields/charnal-houses….

      • bad12 23.2.2

        Bread raw is ok too Phillip, tho if you are on the lazy and/or budget diet the supermarket stuff is easily found out as being loaded with sugar when there is no butter or other on a slice eaten raw,

        Guacamole and home made mango chutney are my spreads for toast when the loaf starts getting beyond edible as fresh,

        Butter and cheese have gone and i cannot say i miss either,my major sin now being the low fat milk in the coffee or tea,(fish as well in the sin department from the eyes of the vegans),

        From when i went on the ”crash” in December to get the process rolling i have gone from about down in weight to 91–93K from well over 112K which is the point i bought the scales,

        Lolz, from meat every night to arranging my 5–7, 5 nights a week intake of vege neatly cut on the chopping board has been a breeze and i am too the point at looking at the nights vege so arranged and going ”yum i could just about eat all that raw”,

        If i get round to it, for a bit of light relief on the weekend those interested might like to have a look at the ”new” stuff on serious fasting diets which i am not totally a fan of promoting without the odd codicil thrown in,

        The ”new” stuff has fasting diets good in the vein of some serious renewal of the immune system…

  24. Belladonna 24

    Marty Mars, I am a vegan and think I have had quinoa once. Our diets are too high in protein not too low, there is an obsession with getting too much protein in our diet. There are plenty of vegan sources of protein that cover the RDA requirements. Glad you are moving to a vegan diet, take that final step, you wont regret it.

    • marty mars 24.1

      Thanks. I had it last night – good with rice. Yep just about there – cheese gone, I use unprocessed milk from happy cows (relatively speaking) http://www.villagemilk.co.nz/ but that is just about gone from my diet – I find black tea and coffee to be tough but the alternative ‘milks’ I don’t like at all in those drinks and butter – I like butter on my bread but that spread, well enough said – it’s all in my head – no more being led by those foul sheds full of poor cows living a life of dread – anyway I could go on even more but I won’t.

      • phillip ure 24.1.1

        “..no more being led by those foul sheds full of poor cows living a life of dread..”

        for me..that’s the main reason i am vegan..the animal suffering..

        .(the healthy/feeling-better outcomes are a bonus..)

        ..if you are vegetarian..you are still part of that problem..

        ..(that is not a judgment..that is a fact..)

        • marty mars 24.1.1.1

          yes it is a fact and there are lots of facts and they are often used as weapons of judgments. Personally I don’t care what other people do – I do what I do and in this instance I became a vegetarian at 18 and have been ever since, now I’m over 50 I’m going to be a vegan very soon – because it fits with what I believe in in terms of not being a part of the corporate and industrialised suffering of animals for food (thank you phil), creating a sustainable lifestyle for myself, my whānau and the world, and as another way of preparing for the collapse. There are a million other things I could do and eventually I’ll work through them and tick off as many as I can.

  25. Belladonna 25

    You will find many vegan cheese recipes on the net, some really good, some not so good. I use So Good soy milk or Pams (cheapest) in the blue tetrapack in my tea. I only put a little in my tea and find it is ok but then I am used to it I guess. I have a decaf soy cappuccino when I am out, delish. Sorry dont believe the happy milk scenario, dont imagine they are too happy cramped into trucks, stunned in the head (if it works, sometimes it doesnt) and killed along with many others. I just dont believe they arent aware of what is happening. Good on you for being so empathetic though.

    • i wd second belladonnas recommendation on the cheap soymilk (blue-pack) from pak ‘n save as the best for in tea..

      ..most of the others are too thick/gluggy/don’t mix well with tea..

      • marty mars 25.1.1

        no pak and save here but I’m okay because the whole putting white stuff in with the other stuff has been pissing me off anyway – what the hell is wrong with black anyway 🙂

        • Belladonna 25.1.1.1

          Some Four Square shops have Pam’s soy milk. I was vegetarian for a long time also – now I wonder why it took so long for me to realise the evils of the dairy industry.

          • phillip ure 25.1.1.1.1

            are you also mildly embarassed about having walked around in self-congratulatary-mode while vegetarian..?

            ..thinking you were no longer hurting the animals..?

            ..i know i am..

          • marty mars 25.1.1.1.2

            Thanks Belladonna – yep I have been living in denial about that for a while – once you see you can’t unsee. Even though I opposed the industry, their use of land, their pollution, their disregard for others – I still bought their product and contributed to their profits. And even though i knew what happened with the cows through first hand experience, I ignored it, I pretended, I looked away. But those days have gone and that starts now! Luckily I live in an area with quite a few vegans so potlucks and shared meals are popular.

      • bad12 25.1.2

        Phillip, in pak’n’slave is the soymilk in the fridge area or on the general grocery shelves, have never tried the stuff, but, in terms of weight loss there may be benefits for me…

    • ‘happy milk’ cows are sent to the works long before the end of their natural-lifespan..(approx 23 yrs..)

      ..usually five years is the longest happy-milk places keep their cows..before they are clapped out from the serial-pregnancies/miking..

      ..and then offing them..

      ..and of course the ‘happy-milk’ places have their veal-trade..

      ..the baby calves are still taken from their mothers..(otherwise..no ‘happy-milk’..which was meant for them..)

      ..and they are also sent to the slaughterhouses to become veal..(‘organic’-veal of course..from those ‘organic’ happy-milk’ farms..fetching a premium-price..

      ..and if they leave the calf with the mother for awhile before killing it..

      ..they can demand an even higher premium for that ‘milk-fed’ calf-flesh..

      ..so..y’know..all in all..’happy-milk’ is a bit of an oxymoron really..

      ..but that to one side..

      ..more power to you on yr journey to/desire for a compassionate-diet..

      ..you’re nearly there..

      ..it’s a good thing to do..

      ..and the rewards are on many levels..

  26. Anne 26

    Oh dear oh dear. The police don’t like it up em. Scared of Johnny boy Key and his Tolley puppet?

    http://www.radionz.co.nz/news/national/246946/police-defend-not-prosecuting-ban

  27. bad12 27

    Hopefully Backbencher’s is a little more lively tonight than last week’s little effort was, 10.30 tonight on Prime for those that don’t know…

    • Clemgeopin 27.1

      Back Benches – 11 Jun 14, 10:35PM

      False electoral returns and funds for a ‘joke party’ to promote free ice cream put political party funding under tonight’s spotlight. Plus, will marine reserves be enough to save our wildlife? (PGR)

      11 Jun 14, 10:35 PM
      12 Jun 14, 02:00 PM

  28. dimebag russell 28

    I drink Yaks milk.

  29. Penny Bright 29

    Seen this?

    http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2650475/More-mass-baby-graves-Ireland-Prime-Minister-Enda-Kenny-orders-investigation-memorial-800-dead-babies-planned.htm

    Thousands of children in Irish care homes at centre of ‘baby graves scandal’ were used in secret vaccine trials in the 1930s

    Scientists secretly gave 2,051 children and babies diphtheria vaccine

    They were used as guinea pigs for drugs giant Burroughs Wellcome in 1930s

    Academic Michael Dwyer uncovered shock truth in old medical records

    He found no evidence of consent, nor of how many died or were affected

    Comes as Irish PM intervenes from U.S. over scandal of mass baby grave

    Hundreds of babies are believed to have been buried at former baby home

    Enda Kenny says he’s ordered his officials to examine ‘if there are others’

    Read more: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2650475/More-mass-baby-graves-Ireland-Prime-Minister-Enda-Kenny-orders-investigation-memorial-800-dead-babies-planned.html#ixzz34K2vx0ET
    Follow us: @MailOnline on Twitter | DailyMail on Facebook

    http://www.salon.com/2014/06/09/the_catholic_irish_babies_scandal_it_gets_much_worse/

    It gets worse. One week after revelations of how over the span of 35 years, a County Galway home for unwed mothers cavalierly disposed of the bodies of nearly 800 babies and toddlers on a site that held a septic tank, new reports are leveling a whole different set of charges about what happened to the children of those Irish homes.

    In harrowing new information revealed this weekend, the Daily Mail has uncovered medical records that suggest 2,051 children across several Irish care homes were given a diphtheria vaccine from pharmaceutical company Burroughs Wellcome in a suspected illegal drug trial that ran from 1930 to 1936.

    As the Mail reports, “Michael Dwyer, of Cork University’s School of History, found the child vaccination data by trawling through tens of thousands of medical journal articles and archive files. He discovered that the trials were carried out before the vaccine was made available for commercial use in the UK.”

    There is no evidence yet – and there may never be – that any family consent was ever offered, or about how many children had adverse effects or died as a result of the vaccinations.
    Dwyer told the Mail,

    “The fact that no record of these trials can be found in the files relating to the Department of Local Government and Public Health, the Municipal Health Reports relating to Cork and Dublin, or the Wellcome Archives in London, suggests that vaccine trials would not have been acceptable to government, municipal authorities, or the general public.

    However, the fact that reports of these trials were published in the most prestigious medical journals suggests that this type of human experimentation was largely accepted by medical practitioners and facilitated by authorities in charge of children’s residential institutions.”

    In a related story, GSK — formerly Wellcome — revealed Monday on Newstalk Radio that 298 children in 10 different care homes were involved in medical trials in the ’60s and ’70s that left “80 children ill after they were accidentally administered a vaccine intended for cattle.”

    http://truthman30.wordpress.com/2014/06/05/the-irish-nuns-the-babies-for-sale-and-the-gsk-wellcome-foundation-vaccine-trials-in-ireland/

    The Irish Nuns, The Babies For Sale, And The Scandal Of The GSK (Wellcome Foundation) Vaccine Trials In Ireland…
    Posted on June 5, 2014

    “Dr Saunders, happy with the trials wrote “the results confirm the results obtained by Wellcome with guinea pigs”.

    “According to a 1932 medical journal, Wellcome lab workers who prepared the vaccine for diphtheria had a “complete lack of experience of its use with human beings”

    “The initial trials were carried out on 436 kids from the general child population in cork”

    “Some of the original batches of the alum-toxoid vaccine, which comprised of 9 per cent aluminium, caused severe reaction like fatal abscesses and hard lumps at the injection site.”

    “As over one third of children vaccinated didn’t return for subsequent treatments, the severity of many of the side-effects were not known. “

    (Sunday World 6th June 2014)

    “A spokesman for GSK – formerly Wellcome – said: ‘The activities that have been described to us date back over 70 years and, if true, are clearly very distressing.”

    …The trial was published in the ‘British Medical Journal’ in 1962. The final paragraph of it read:

    “We are indebted to the medical officers in charge of the children’s homes. . . for permission to carry out this investigation on infants under their care.”

    “The trials involved incredibly poor judgment on the part of all involved. We were basically used as human guinea pigs,” Ms Steed told the Irish Independent.”

    “It was time the truth came out about the drugs trials.”

    “The call came after it emerged a woman adopted from Ireland in 1961, who was involved in a vaccine trial as a baby without the permission of her mother, is to take legal action against the drugs company involved.”

    “Mari Steed (50), who lives in the US, is to take action along with three others against GlaxoSmithKline, which as “The Wellcome Foundation” at the time the trials were conducted.”

    (Irish Times 2010

    ‘Seek truth from facts’.

    How widespread was this sickening practice – using such little kids as human guinea pigs for drug companies?

    Bloody disgraceful.

    Penny Bright

    • Clemgeopin 29.1

      That is so awful. Using babies as guinea pigs for their drug trials. How low can these corporates go in pursuit of profit.

      Thanks Penny for posting this dreadful news.

      • miravox 29.1.1

        Why the shock at children being used? Of course children get used in all sorts of ways if they’re rejected and neglected.

        You realise if they and there mothers weren’t treated as rejects from society, left hidden and neglected they wouldn’t be there for corporates to do what they do? That’s the first ‘so awful’. That’s the horror of how low people can go – and not even for a profit, but instead for some sort of twisted morality.

        Who knows -Wellcome might have thought they were doing the poor children and their mothers a favour all those years ago with the massive mortality rates from highly contagious diseases that left them in the sewer.

        So yes – outrageous that the children were used for vaccine trials. More outrageous that they were neglected and ostracised by a society that couldn’t bear to look at them.

        Rejected, neglected, abused, their mothers practically enslaved, dead.

  30. Once was Tim 30

    ……. just a suggestion:

    http://norightturn.blogspot.co.nz/2014/06/how-to-punish-bad-employers.html

    since NRT’s posts are regularly reposted on TS, if ever there was one deserving – the above is it (not that I’m trying to tell you how to run your site – merely that it represents a collective from ‘the Left’)

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