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Open mike 13/11/2021

Written By: - Date published: 6:00 am, November 13th, 2021 - 149 comments
Categories: open mike - Tags:

Open mike is your post.

For announcements, general discussion, whatever you choose.

The usual rules of good behaviour apply (see the Policy).

Step up to the mike …

149 comments on “Open mike 13/11/2021 ”

  1. Gezza 1

    🍾 Happy Birthday, Patricia 🎂

    You strike me as a person who looks life’s challenges straight in the eye & lives life to the best & fullest extent possible.

    80 years is a significant milestone for anyone & you thoroughly deserve to have got there. May you have many more birthdays & adventures to come.

    You’ll no doubt be the star at your party & nosh up today. Wish I could be there to celebrate it with you.

    If you post today what time lunch with all the trimmings is expected to be served up, I’ll raise a glass of kahlua & milk & drink a toast to your good health at Gezza’s Bird Café here at Pookden Manor.

    Hope you enjoy the gif I chose for your birthday.

    View post on imgur.com

    All the best
    🐧 Sir Gerald Ormsby Battersea Bradders, RSVP, PC 🐧
    North Wellington Avian Aviation Authority

  2. Dennis Frank 2

    Newsroom writer explains

    the difference between those two vaccines – the Pfizer vaccine will recode your DNA and turn you into a child-trafficking zombie controlled by Bill Gates whereas the AstraZeneca vaccine will also recode your DNA and turn you into a child-trafficking zombie, but you’ll be controlled by Jeff Bezos.


    • Gezza 2.1

      😮 😂

      At least with Bezos, if they have any promotions, some of us might end up with a cool brief trip into space ….

    • weka 2.2

      lol. At some point NZ will have to decide what to do with the people it is currently ridiculing. We might get lucky and they merge back into society. Or we might find they're a monster class by the time of the next election.

  3. francesca 3

    Anyone wanting a fuller picture of what's happening on the Belarus /Poland border would do well to read this article.


    Remember when Hungary was censured for building fences to keep migrants and refugees out ?(to my mind they're all refugees, from climate crisis and war)

    Now Uk soldiers are being sent to Poland's border .Not to help with processing asylum requests, or provide humanitarian help, but to help"strengthen the border" aka reinforcing fences


  4. Jenny How to get there 4

    37 year old niece, who wouldn't get the vaccine because she didn't know what was in it. Diagnosed with covid, and isolating at home had to go into North Shore Hospital after developing breathing problems.
    The good news; feels much better after being put on a drip.

    No one who needs an IV, ever refuses it because they don't know what is in it.

    • Gezza 4.1


      I got put on one recently, after 6 failed attempts by nurses to get a working cannula into a vein, before a young surgeon finally succeeded & they could pump in the opioid I needed for excruciating abdominal pain. They sent me down to radiology forcan abdominal X-ray & put me on Nil By Mouth until the docs had seen the radiologist’s report.

      I needed IV fluids for 12 hours. I didn’t ask what was in it.

    • Patricia Bremner 4.2

      Jenny, it is a hard way to learn. Hope she fully recovers.

      • Jenny How to get there 4.2.1

        Thank you Patricia.

        She is feeling much better. You have to give it to our health workers, they really are angels.

    • weka 4.3

      people are intuitive and emotional as well as rational beings.

      • Gezza 4.3.1


        More or less, most of us.

      • AB 4.3.2

        Aye – but are also usually self-aware enough to know which is which, and not let them intrude into each others' spaces.

        • weka

          A woman walks up to an elevator door, there's a man inside wearing a suit and looking normal. Her intuition says don't get in the elevator, her rational mind says it's the middle of the day, in a busy building, he looks fine, nothing is going to happen. What should she do?

          • bwaghorn

            If there had been a huge background check onto him and highly trusted experts said he was all good , she should ride the elevator.

            • weka

              what if it's that he has covid?

              • bwaghorn

                Oooos have misunderstood your comment. Thought you were using an analogy to explain her intuition.

                Its a bugger having a weird brain

                • weka

                  I was trying to point out that sometimes intuition is the best source of data and out ranks rationality.

                  Intuition won't tell you rationally why not to get into the elevator. So background checks on the dude are beside the point.

          • francesca

            Follow her instinct,I think that's your point

            We've learnt self preservation that way

            • Gezza

              I think that’s the right answer. There’s sometimes a debate about whether women are more intuitive than man. I think they are, when it comes to reading people or situations – for that very reason. They need to protect themselves from physically stronger, predatory men, & so many have highly developed instincts to that end.

              • RedLogix

                On average women are more physically vulnerable than men in any number of ways. But this doesn't necessarily make them victims.

                The other side of this equation is that men do most of the protecting and sacrificing for the women. This was a lot more obvious in the pre-industrial world because life then was so much more dangerous.

                Looked at this way men evolved via sexual selection to be the somewhat more dangerous sex in order to be useful to women. There is however an inherent risk in having potentially hazardous things lying about the house 🙂

                • Gezza

                  Last line – that’s about how my Friday caregiver described the fathers of her two adult children, except she used the term lazy bastards who saw me coming & noticed I had DOORMAT written all over me. She was a real character. Much prefers looking after herself & living without a man. She was visiting Israel in 1973 when the Arabs attacked.

            • weka

              yes, and that sometimes intuition is more useful than rationality.

          • Brigid

            I think the question should be:

            "Why do women find themselves in this situation"

            • Gezza

              See my reply above.

              Because some men are dangerous sexual predators. The thing is you can’t always tell who these bastards are, & and unfortunately neither can those of us men who love & honour women as God’s greatest ever invention, & would would happily castrate these animals if we could.

            • Grafton Gully

              Because men in suits generally don't use the stairs, even if they can find them.

              • miravox

                Because men in suits generally don't use the stairs, even if they can find them

                Ha! Agree with the 'generally', but my partner does use the stairs – that's because he's a fitness freak – however, because he runs them noisily, in his suit, it's pretty clear he's no threat to anyone. He'd be appalled if he thought he was, and change his behaviour.

                But you touch on a point about intuition. My thoughts are that intuition is not something outside of rationality. It's a sum of things you've learned through experience and stories and the weight you put on the contradictions in the things you've learned.

                The difference with rationality is that its generally thought of as a weighing up of the odds in any given situation and choosing to do the action that is most likely to be safe (take the stairs – 99.99% of the time you're safe). Intuition (i.e. the weighing up of experience and stories) may lead to the opposite decision (avoid the stairs). Intuition in these cases is also self-reinforcing (you stayed safe by avoiding the man, therefore it was the right thing to do).

          • woodart

            many different answers for many different reasons. (1) it is lunchtime ,so she should take the time and exercise by walking up the stairs. (2) who wants to share a small enclosed space with a normal suit wearer?so, she should let the elevator go, and wait for some interesting company.(3) its her ex-husband, and her intuition is that he;s going to try and borrow money. etc etc

    • bwaghorn 4.4

      Will she get vaccinated now?

  5. Dennis Frank 5

    Throughout COP 26, Resilience Frontiers has been challenging participants’ mindsets , aiming to promote a global paradigm shift towards resilience through eight novel pathways.

    On Thursday, 11 November, participants considered the final pathway, which focused on developing transformative financial instruments.

    Its goal was rethinking prosperity, growth, and value, and nurturing human wellbeing and the environment, while harnessing emerging technologies to transform financial networks and instruments.

    The next session was chaired by Robert Filipp, Founder and President of Innovative Finance Foundation, with a panel featuring: Kim Stanley Robinson, Science Fiction Author; Elena Lopez-Gunn, Director of ICATALIST; Alex Gordon-Brander, CEO of Teratree; and Adam Rockefeller-Growald, Co-Founder of Teratree.

    Robinson recited passages from his book, “The Ministry for the Future,” opening a space for participants to imagine potential future monetary systems. https://enb.iisd.org/resilience-lab-cop26-11Nov2021

    • Dennis Frank 5.1

      Although a cynic would dismiss this as mere leftist consciousness-raising, I get the sense that it does at least launch a geopolitical work in progress:

      The final pathway sparked a dialogue on equity, collaboration, and how we value nature. Through group discussions, reflection exercises, and expert panel conversations, the Lab explored thoughts around a subconscious desire to co-exist with the biosphere in a respectful, regenerative, and resilient way.

      At a reception celebrating the discussions held at the Lab at COP 26, Youssef Nassef, Founder of Resilience Frontiers, and Director of the Adaptation Division, UNFCCC Secretariat, thanked all participants who had engaged with the themes during the two weeks, welcoming them to the growing Resilience Frontiers community.

  6. Jenny How to get there 6

    Are lawyers allowed to lie in court?

    This case may come down to whether or not this conspiracy theorist lawyer used misinformation and proven lies in the courtroom.

    Lawyer spreading COVID-19 misinformation faces being struck off

    Dan Satherley 18 hrs ago

    ….The New Zealand Law Society is investigating a high-profile member who's been spreading misinformation online.


    Admitted to the bar in 1990, Grey recently fought a losing battle with the High Court on behalf of four aviation security workers who refused to get vaccinated, despite a Government mandate. Her practising certificate was last renewed in July.

    She frequently shares misinformation on her social media pages about COVID-19 and the Pfizer vaccine, such as falsely inflating the number of deaths linked to the vaccine, and calling the recent rollout of the vaccine to teenagers "Government-mandated genocide".

    Lawyer spreading COVID-19 misinformation faces being struck off (msn.com)

    • Dennis Frank 6.1

      Are lawyers allowed to lie in court?

      I suspect the relevant framing is creative interpretation. That's extremely traditional, of course! Hard-wired as part of the privilege system. The basic idea has always been that justice arrives as an incidental product of the competitive storytelling.

      There is an artifice around the notion of fact, and precedence tends to be given to authoritative sources such as scientists & media (I'm not kidding) to establish fact.

      • Jenny How to get there 6.1.1

        I am guessing then, that the Law Society's deliberations may come down to a matter of integrity.

        If it can be shown that she guarded her words in court knowing that they could be shown to be proven falsehoods by authoritative sources such as scientists & media. But then spread these falsehoods in public statements outside of court.

        It could be evidence of a certain mens rea.

        In her defence Sue Grey says that she was speaking as a politician not a lawyer.

        Newshub has contacted Grey for a response. In a letter to the Law Society in her own defence, Stuff reports she made the ‘genocide’ comment “in my personal capacity as a political leader”, not a lawyer.

        Are politicians allowed to lie.


        • Jenny How to get there

          This must rank as one of the greatest defence arguments put up by a lawyer-cum-politician, ever.

          ‘I am a politician I am allowed to lie’.

          Whether this defence will wash with the Law Society might be another matter.

          I suspect it will, just from the sheer gall of it.

          • Dennis Frank

            the Law Society

            More arcane priesthood than cabal. Extremely important to protect the common interests of members (the principle of territoriality being the antique basis of that). Therefore rulings are normally protectionist.

            So it will depend whether they see her as a wolf in sheep's clothing or not. Fear derives from audacious setting of precedents: such adventurism will be sure to come back and bite them in the future. Rationalists will adopt the stance ‘hey, she's one of us, the political clothing is irrelevant'. Protectionists will adopt the stance ‘yeah but the cowboy thing is a bad look, we must always wear suits, sorry – I meant cowgirl'.

            Then there’s her `chinese walls in the mind’ rationale to consider. Dunno if there’s legal precedent around that.

          • georgecom

            she isn't a politician as far as I know. I wanna be but failed politician yes. Unless she is on a local body somewhere and then I guess a local body politician yes.

        • Pete

          It coming to a matter of integrity might take things to a realm outside Sue Grey.

          I mean my reading in the news today suggests she doesn't have any.


    • Janet 6.2

      I do think that Sue Grey is a lawyer and person of high integrity and maybe we are lucky to have some one like her willing take on the contentious – especially the opposite views to that the government departments want to promulgate.

      I have no doubt that there will be those out there wanting to cut her down at any opportunity because of her past achievements.


      Sue Grey (Saxmere’s counsel

      As with anyone who attempts to expose judicial corruption, furtive attempts by the judiciary have been made to discredit her. These have been only minimally effective due to her exemplary legal background, as well as her political savvy in keeping the focus on the negative commercial and economic effect such judicial corruption is having on her major wool producing client.

      Dr David Collins QC (Solicitor General)

      When allegations of Wilson J’s misconduct originally surfaced, Collins endeared himself to the judiciary by moving quickly to quash it. He orchestrated the firing of whistle-blower Sue Grey from her job at Department of Conservation, filed extensive legal submissions in support of Judge Wilson’s conduct and personally appeared in Court to show his support for Wilson in what was a civil case between two private parties.

      My own granddaughter does not want to proceed on with her second vaccination because of what is online about young people and myocarditis in this links such as this.


      • georgecom 6.2.1

        does she just peddle misinformation on her Facebook and other platforms Janet?

        If the story reported about her speculating a death from the pfizer vaccine before the person was vaccinated is correct. must be a pretty strong vaccine to do that.

  7. Dennis Frank 7

    Trump suggested Pence could be well hung?

    On Jan. 6, violent insurrectionists erected a gallows, stormed the U.S. Capitol, and chanted “hang Mike Pence!” as they searched for him. Pence’s boss, former President Donald Trump, was totally fine with it.

    That’s the revelation from an interview between ABC News correspondent Jonathan Karl and Trump, in which the former president defended the people who threatened the life of his vice president. A clip of the interview was released on Friday in advance of the publication of Karl’s book, “Betrayal: The Final Act of the Trump Show,” which comes out next week.


    Typical leftist fake news. Trump didn't say anything to indicate he agreed that Pence ought to be hung. The biased reporter uses the `sin by omission' theory to frame Trump as supporting the rabble's call. Trump was clearly supporting the rabble, and just as clearly refraining from comment. Bullshit from Huffpost dude.

    • Gezza 7.1

      Good on you for calling out fake news & BS.

      Wasn’t just the Trumpanzees pushing those sorts of “alternative facts”. The liberals / Dems were into it just as badly – twisting & bending events & statements to back up prejudices & false assertions.

      • RedLogix 7.1.1

        Maybe you've been following the ignominious unravelling of the so-called "Steele Dossier". Four years of US liberal media calling Trump out as a Russian asset – based on complete bullshit.

        It's reasons like this that if another election were held tomorrow, Trump would stand a decent shot at winning. That's pretty damned depressing really.

        • francesca

          I consider that whole saga as finalising the decline of journalism, and the public trust in journalism to an unprecedented degree, even including the Iraq war lead up.
          Trump winning the election prompted such outrage than any hack could utter any unverifiable crap as gospel , and as long as it was anti Trump it was endorsed and cheered and could build a career

          The media wasn’t attacked, it was an inside job

          • RedLogix

            It would go a long way if some media figures had the guts to say – "I was wrong – we fucked that up and we have to do some work to earn back your trust".

            • Gezza

              You’re absolutely right, Red.

              “Maybe you’ve been following the ignominious unravelling of the so-called “Steele Dossier”. Four years of US liberal media calling Trump out as a Russian asset – based on complete bullshit.”

              Yep. I loathe Trump – despicable, narcissistic, bullying lying individual in my eyes – so I didn’t want to know initially, but as it unravelled it was obvious it was both a completely fallacious AND an utterly farcical allegation.

              “It’s reasons like this that if another election were held tomorrow, Trump would stand a decent shot at winning. That’s pretty damned depressing really.”

              The Dems have the same problem with Joe Biden as they did with Hillary Clinton. Both of them compromised candidates. Joe’s obviously well past his prime – when his prime was pretty patchy, to say the least.

              Hard to see how Biden’s ongoing muddlesome gaffes & obvious frailty will stand up to a full-on Trump challenge. Harris, an unknown quantity. Cos Joe may be past his best, such as it ever was, but he’s a grumpy old stickler for getting top billing & doing all the (heavily scripted) talking.

              The liberal media are likely going to have their work cut out for them trying present Joe as on top of things when he blunders.

              Trump’s just as bad for blithering nonsense word salads, as well as spouting out dog whistling rhetoric, but audiences lap that up & don’t expect anything else from that charlatan.

          • swordfish


            It's a pathetic descent into echo-chamber Tribalism … the Clintonistas as bad as (and far more dominant within the US Establishment than) the Trumpards. Each side deploying their own crude conspiracy theories.

            • RedLogix

              I wonder if we don't have an opportunity here at TS to set our own direction against this trend.

              Not easy – but it would be the direction to go in I think.

    • Peter 7.2

      Of course Trump didn't say he agreed that Pence ought to be hung.

      Do you reckon Trump hoped that Pence would be hung or something otherwise dire happen to him?

      • Dennis Frank 7.2.1

        You bet! Trump would have exhibited sanctimony! "Unfortunately my folks got carried away by their enthusiasm. It was god's will that Pence became a martyr for the cause. His heart was in the right place even if his head wasn't."

        Pence isn't a strong contender for the nomination next time but it's in Trump's interest to minimise any competitor. He's sending a carefully-nuanced signal to the right: disloyalty to the chief will be punished one way or another…

    • Macro 7.3

      For those who have not followed this here is a snippet of the interview:


      Trump doesn't exactly condemn the insurrectionists does he. In fact he says to hang Pence is common sense!

      • Dennis Frank 7.3.1

        Technical point to you on that. Trump is forever doing a reframe of the narrative. Rabble chanting is so totally irrelevant to him that the interviewers point gets over-ridden and ignored automatically. He's always telling someone what to think! His irritation that the interviewer is waving a red herring at him gets displaced by the essentiality of having to impose his narrative.

        He genuinely doesn't get the concern the interviewer is trying to project. Who cares what the rabble chant? Not him! His gobbledygook trying to explain common sense results from his internal imperative. Narcissism compels that.

      • georgecom 7.3.2

        Trump didn't condemn the crowd, he didn't back Pence. It's all about Trump really, the mob was doing what Trump wanted, Pence declined to do what Trump wanted. Pretty clear from Trump that it is all about himself, and his delusions and his blow arse self aggrandisement. A 'wasn't very much' wannabe who cannot accept reality of "trump, you're fired".

    • vto 7.4

      trump supporters are like anti-vaxxers…

      dont have time for either…

      both types are the most dangerous people on the planet atm imo

      • RedLogix 7.4.1

        Actually no. I've worked with about a dozen in both Canada and Latin America. They were generally easy to get to know and good people to work with.

        When the topic drifted onto politics – they'd usually concede or openly state that Trump was a flawed, troublesome personality. Or as one guy put it sorrowfully, "how the fuck did the US come down to a choice between these two shitheads?"

        We've been over this political ground many times, but for me it comes down to a question of just how accountable are we going to be? Because if the left cannot manage an utter landslide win over someone so blatantly unsuitable as Trump – then exactly what claim to political competence do we have?

        • weka

          tbf, the US doesn't really have a political left.

          • Dennis Frank

            Voters need to understand the fundamental differences between liberalism and leftism. It’s the difference between a candidate who believes capitalism, with just a little refereeing, will eventually provide what working people need, versus a candidate who believes serious intervention in the capitalist economy is necessary.


            Worth reading for the historical back-story too! Notice that the author definition sorts out pseudo-leftists in Aotearoa rather effectively as well.

          • Gezza

            Bernie Sanders? Most seem to consider him poltically left?

            • weka

              He still had to run for the Dems though, who aren't left.

              • alwyn

                He didn't have to run for the Democrats nomination under any rule. He could have done what Ross Perot did in 1992 and run for a third party. The problem he would have had was two-fold. He didn't have any source of a great deal of money and he didn't have an organisation to carry out the basic tasks like getting on the ballot in all the States. They are all different and the rules are really all there to make it nearly impossible for a third party to get started. For example, when Perot ran –

                "In New York, ballot access appeared to be the most difficult to attain. In a five-week summer period, the campaign would be required to compile 20,000 signatures from non-primary voters, including 100 from each of half of the state's Congressional districts"

                Perot managed it but it helped that he was a billionaire and was willing to spend enormous amounts of his own money on the campaign. That was when a billion dollars was worth something.

                Sanders on the other hand simply didn't have any money or organisation to do such a thing. That meant he became a Democrat as long as he was in the campaign, simply because they had an organisation to do the donkey work, before going back to being an Independent when he dropped out of the campaign which is what he remains, as far as I know.


          • Dennis Frank

            Sociologist Stephanie Mudge explored the terrain three years ago.

            In Leftism Reinvented: Western Parties from Socialism to Neoliberalism, Mudge looks at left parties in advanced capitalist countries over the last century and shows how the experts aligned with those parties pushed them in the direction of spin doctors and markets. In the process, left parties’ ability to represent the interests of their own working-class constituencies was eroded — and ordinary people were shut out of the halls of power.

            Political organizer and socialist activist Chase Burghgrave recently spoke with Mudge about her new book, the role of experts in democratic societies, and whether a more vibrant, egalitarian politics is possible.


            She gets your point…

            The Democratic Party is trickier, because of its very different history. It has always been a mass party in a certain sense, but not a socialist or ideological one. I include it because, when the leading liberal or New Deal faction of the Democratic Party embraced Keynesianism around the time of the 1937 recession, it became somewhat comparable to social-democratic and labor parties. And, last but not least, in the 1990s the Democratic Party was a major exporter of “third way” politics to Europe and elsewhere. So that is why it needed to be part of the story.

            She goes into why the left defaults to experts, then the future…

            The short answer is that left politics needs experts who make spin unnecessary. Left politics should have intuitive appeal because it speaks to people’s real needs and concerns.

            That said, I don’t think new experts will magically cure the ills of left politics. Nor is it my place to say who the next left party experts should be. I think that party experts can be anyone — and maybe, in the current moment, left parties should be dedicating their resources to playing the long game by radically broadening the profiles of the people we consider “experts.”

            But I will say this: it is absolutely essential that left parties cultivate people’s ability to understand, and critically engage with, the structure and logic of contemporary financial capitalism. I think Alexis de Tocqueville once said that you have to “educate democracy.” I would give this a Marxian twist: you have to educate capitalist democracy. There can be no left politics without a shared understanding of today’s specific economic circumstances

            • RedLogix

              I've found it helpful to move toward a tri-polar political model.

              Instead of the bipolar left-right model that's served as the default model for two hundred years, I'm suggesting it's more interesting to use three poles – conservative, liberal and socialist. Like all social models it's not meant to be perfect but I'm using it more and more these days.

              • Dennis Frank

                I'd have a few quibbles with the details. Haidt is worth reading but that moral framework never struck me as compelling. Metaphysics always strikes me as a surer basis (principles, archetypes, models, assumptions & hypotheses). Although your scheme seems similar to the third way, it would be interesting to know if you see it as different, and how.

                I mean, from a metaphysical perspective, triangulation is the common basis. So both have the merit of transcending the binary. I always saw the third way as fake – liberal capitalism and conservative capitalism are the same system. Blair's framing (from Giddens wasn't it?) was basically a pr sham to unhook Labour from socialism.

  8. francesca 8

    I think this piece by Bryce Edwards is surprisingly good, and has some relevance to the toxic muddles we get into here on TS


    an excerpt

    “The rise of “culture wars” has been incredibly important for the political atmosphere that we are now in. Quite simply it doesn’t lend itself to debate and discussion, or finding middle ground. Instead, it’s more polarising – it lends itself to the labelling of opponents as racists, sexists, or in the case of Hilary Clinton, talking about the masses as “deplorables”. So, there’s a strong strain of sneering from many on the left – especially against those that are seen as socially backward. The old slogan of: “The personal is political” now underpins the focus on how to fix the problems of the world.

    • weka 8.1

      good quote. I've been thinking lately that some of the language used to talk about the freedom protestors reminds me of Clinton's use of deplorables. Like we didn't learn anything from the time of Trump. Blows my mind.

    • Sabine 8.2

      i find this funny and interesting at the same time.

      Largely it’s an elite top-down model of politics, reflective of the left being made up of the highly-educated stratum of society. They confidently believe that they know best.


      And this is why it’s somewhat surprising that increasingly the left want either the state or society to put limits on political debate and expression.

      lol, it must be hard to understand how someone who fought for the working class – proletariat and precariat' is now demanding no debate on issues that affect predominantly the proletariat and the precariat.

    • RedLogix 8.3

      The turning point for me was Jonathan Haidt's ideas on Moral Foundations theory. All humans share a common suite of core moral drivers, but we place different weights on them. And this does seem to be closely linked to innate personality differences:

      Researchers have found that people's sensitivities to the five/six moral foundations correlate with their political ideologies. Using the Moral Foundations Questionnaire, Haidt and Graham found that libertarians are most sensitive to the proposed Liberty foundation, liberals are most sensitive to the Care and Fairness foundations, while conservatives are equally sensitive to all five/six foundations.

      According to Haidt, the differences have significant implications for political discourse and relations. Because members of two political camps are to a degree blind to one or more of the moral foundations of the others, they may perceive morally driven words or behavior as having another basis – at best self-interested, at worst evil, and thus demonize one another.

      Haidt and Graham suggest a compromise can be found to allow liberals and conservatives to see eye-to-eye. They suggest that the five foundations can be used as "doorway" to allow liberals to step to the conservative side of the "wall" put up between these two political affiliations on major political issues (i.e. legalizing gay marriage). If liberals try to consider the latter three foundations in addition to the former two (therefore adopting all five foundations like conservatives for a brief amount of time) they could understand where the conservatives' viewpoints stem from and long-lasting political issues could finally be settled.

      All too often we make the debate all about these moral weightings – which are fundamentally unresolvable at that level. If instead we accept that the people we perceive as our opponents are simply coming at an issue with a different set of priorities and interests – we're more likely to engage in a constructive negotiation.

      And that's how all the great politicians got the results they’re remembered for, they understood their opponents and could make deals with them.

      • Gezza 8.3.1

        “All too often we make the debate all about these moral weightings – which are fundamentally unresolvable at that level. If instead we accept that the people we perceive as our opponents are simply coming at an issue with a different set of priorities and interests – we’re more likely to engage in a constructive negotiation.”

        That tends to be how I’ve always looked at issues. At various times in my life it’s seemed like a character flaw, because others with stronger egos & opinions made judgements & decisions (often, needed decisions) faster & with more conviction & certainty than I was comfortable with.

        Then I began to notice how many of those decisions subsequently (sometimes a year or two later) turned to be bad ones, with negative blowback effects, from things that were bothering me as risks at the time I felt like a slow-minded fool for wanting more information or discussion.

        I like people. I appear to be highly empathetic, at least at times. I seem to have the happy knack of easily getting people to talk to me and explain their viewpoint. Thereafter I find I can sometimes see the issue thru their eyes, from their perspective, as well as my own. I decided in the end that this isn’t a flaw, it’s an inbuilt talent, & I now employ it usefully whenever I can.

      • Herodotus 8.3.2

        I can across this regarding people holding opposing political view but treated each other with respect (that IMO all are due) John Wayne and Mark Rydell.

        "“He really wanted to do The Cowboys,” Rydell said. “He treated me with the most respect. I was like this (cringing) waiting for him to say something anti semitic or anti-Indian or anti-anything. I was ready to jump. But he taught me a lesson.

        “I know a lot of people with whom I agree politically and otherwise who are jerks,” Rydell said. “And then you take someone like him who I disagreed with in almost every area, except art. And he was a terrific person. The first guy on the set, the last person to leave. The picture was full of kids. They climbed up on him like the monkey bars on a playground. He was available to everybody. We went out to dinner he would sign autographs for everybody. He never was unfair or unpleasant. It was a big lesson to me not to pre-judge.”

        youtube 4:15 Mark Rydell director of The Cowboys,The Rose, On Golden Pond etc.


      • Dennis Frank 8.3.3

        From a social science perspective, the question is if the theory can be validated via research. First, the stats basis would have to be robust in his home nation, then it would have to be replicated in the other western countries.

        Since Liberalism morphed historically into separate beasts in the various countries that it invaded (as a meme) from Britain, I would expect the stats to render his thesis context-dependent only. Here, for example, liberalism has manifested only as a strand within the Alliance in the '90s plus economic ideology shared by Nat/Lab since the '80s, since our original Liberal Party died a century ago.

      • francesca 8.3.4

        I was Given his "The Righteous Mind"

        I wish I had been given Cliffs notes along with it.It was complex stuff and requires full commitment.I'll have another go at it

      • left for dead 8.3.5

        @ Red….Have a read of Michael Tomasky (Left for Dead) it's twenty odd years on but I think a quick read.

    • Ad 8.4

      Hilary Clinton has been demonstrably accurate for the United States.

      Edwards' piece doesn't reflect anything about politics to me.

  9. ianmac 9

    Just realised that there is something good about wearing a mask. Tromp around the supermarket, leave to go to the bike stand and then off with the mask. "Wow!." that first breath of fresh air is so great.

    • garibaldi 9.1

      Exactly ianmac, and the opportunity to put your glasses back on!

    • Sabine 9.2

      You have no idea how lovely that bit of fresh air is once you take the mask of after several hours of wearing them at work.

      • I Feel Love 9.2.1

        Appreciate yours & other retailers efforts Sabine, thank you.

        • Sabine

          I am amazed by how good people are actually to be honest. I have a strikt no one enters the premise policy, plague door is mounted and all interaction is customer on one side and me on the other and everyone is very very understanding.

          It allows me to trade without having to police people on vaccination status or mask wearing. And People are wearing their masks at about 95% rate. And if someone comes without one, i have spares to hand out and they are generally well accepted.

          there are more of us doing the right things than not. That is always something we should keep in mind.

          • I Feel Love

            I agree, from what I have seen, with mask wearing. But jeez, wearing them indoors all day, thank you (I work on my own out doors mostly, so can slip it on & off).

            • Sabine

              i have been told by someone whom i trust on these issues tht mask wearing considerably reduces the risk of transmitting covid, as we keep our droplets to our self. And thus i am a great promoter of masks. Specifically indoors. I do tend to have one with me when out and about and will wear it when people are around. I feel naked now without one. Humans get used to this stuff fairly quickly i reckon.

  10. Ross 10

    Some useful information about another vaccine, Pandemrix. The following is from Peter Doshi, the associate editor of the BMJ (formerly the British Medical Journal):

    In October 2009, the US National Institutes of Health infectious diseases chief, Anthony Fauci, appeared on YouTube to reassure Americans about the safety of the “swine flu” vaccine. “The track record for serious adverse events is very good. It’s very, very, very rare that you ever see anything that’s associated with the vaccine that’s a serious event,” he said.

    Four months earlier, the World Health Organization had declared H1N1 influenza a pandemic, and by October 2009 the new vaccines were being rolled out across the world. A similar story was playing out in the UK, with prominent organisations, including the Department of Health, British Medical Association, and Royal Colleges of General Practitioners, working hard to convince a reluctant NHS workforce to get vaccinated. “We fully support the swine flu vaccination programme … The vaccine has been thoroughly tested,” they declared in a joint statement.

    Except, it hadn’t.

    The BMJ conducted its own analysis of the adverse events, most of which seem to have been reported spontaneously to GSK. For a range of concerning adverse events, reports were coming in for Pandemrix at a consistently higher rate than for the other two GSK pandemic vaccines–four times the rate of facial palsy, eight times the rate of serious adverse events, nine times the rate of convulsions. Overall, Pandemrix had, proportionally, five times more adverse events reported than Arepanrix and the unadjuvanted vaccine.

    But those being vaccinated against swine flu were seemingly unaware of these side-effects, including narcolepsy. The vaccine manufacturer was aware of this side-effect but failed to inform health consumers. One can imagine why they might have been reluctant to provide such information.





  11. Adrian 11

    Ian Mac, feel for the Covid nurses and doctors, my wife found while training and wearing N95 masks, they are brilliant at protection but it doesn’t take long before one is just recycling ones own CO2 even if it just a little bit every breath, a hard job made harder.

    • Treetop 11.1

      Mask use for year 4 up next week in schools at level 3 step 2 lockdown I have been giving this some thought.

      I can manage a mask better when seated than when walking.

      I am sewing material masks again today for family, 100% cotton needs to be used.

      • Anne 11.1.1

        @ Treetop.

        I have three cotton masks. They have an under cotton lining, open at both ends, so that the wearer can insert an extra layer for better protection. I haven't felt the need so far, but with rapidly rising cases I am wondering if it would be a good idea.

        Can you recommend something I could slide in between the outer mask and the lining? It would have to be something a bit stiffer then normal.

        • Treetop

          Coffee and tea filters are used as inserts for masks. They can be organic and made of cotton. Probably non reusable as they collect moisture.

          Paper towels can be used as well.

          There is a lot online.

  12. Adrian 12

    I’m pretty sceptical of most reports of vaccine reactions, a 30 year old working with me after having her vaccination had just about every reaction you could think of from sunburn, “ Ohh that’s worse than I’ve had before” to tripping on something. “ I don’t usually do that “ ad infinitum …. turns out her mother had been diagnosed with hypochondria, and that’s the thing about hypochondriacs .. you can’t tell them they are sick because that’s exactly what they want to hear.

  13. Fireblade 13

    New Covid case in Taupo.

  14. dv 14

    See super spreader events on again

    • Pete 14.1

      It's interesting to observe people getting upset about Covid spreading and their attitude towards those who are determined to not follow strictures or suggestions designed to protect.

      Then saying that all border controls should go. And people should be trusted because they'll make the right decisions.

    • miravox 14.2

      Flag-waving images of protester really disturb me. I've been thinking that the meanings of those flags (United Tribes and Tino Rangatiratanga)

      If, as a Pākehā, what is the first thing that would come to mind if I changed my cover photo on Facebook or Twitter to the Tino Rangatiratanga flag?

      1. I support Māori aspirations for their people
      2. I’m a pro-gun rights, anti-1080 anti-vaxxer with possible white supremacist tendencies who thinks the PM should be hung and scientists & health officials should face a Nuremburg trial over covid?

      If 2., how do we remind people of the meaning of this symbol of Māori aspiration? How do we remove the re-purposing of the flag as a symbol of disinformation and violence?

      • Gezza 14.2.1

        “2., how do we remind people of the meaning of this symbol of Māori aspiration? How do we remove the re-purposing of the flag as a symbol of disinformation and violence?”

        The Tino Rangatiratanga flag turns up at all sorts of rallies and protests against the gummint, councils, private contractors, or Pākehā. It never gets a long term asociation with those because the fact that some Māori people purloin the flag & wave it around at demos as a means of personally expressing just their Māoriness is understood by most people, imo.

        It won’t suffer a change of symbolism as result of being raised during the awfully muddled vaccination protests, imo.

        It’s a shame this flag is forever associated with a coterie of perennial Pākehā-bashing Māori separatists. It’s iconic – the coolest design. If had a more inclusive cause & meaning I’d vote for it in a heartbeat to be Kiwiland’s new national flag.

        • miravox

          I hope you're right about the lack of association with this set of protests. I live in hope.

          I wouldn't comment on how Maori use their flag, I'm only commenting on the misappropriation by Pakeha in this set of protests.

  15. satty 15

    Looks like today’s protesters achieve something Wellington Council and Wellington Police failed* to do for decades… the majority of cars driving within the speed limit.

    * Although you can only fail if you try.

  16. weka 16

    This looks interesting, despite Auckland being a foreign land to me.

    • Ad 16.1

      If you want that history raw rather than re-cooked, just go to the Waitangi Tribunal hearing publications on the Ngati Paoa, Ngati Whaua Orakei, Te Kawerau a Maki, and Manukau Tainui. Not a barrel o' laffs necessarily but rich and detailed.

      Also the one on the Musket Wars which is just utu manifold.

      Also Belich's early Auckland accounts from Marsden etc up the Tamaki River in Making Peoples Vol 1. That spans the worlds old and new.

    • Brigid 16.2

      That does sound interesting

      Then again it might be just too damned depressing

  17. McFlock 19

    It's interesting. Typing away online, there's a separation when discussing irritating things. not perfect, but significant.

    But talking to someone last night, the topic of covid came up, and I actually surprised myself with how just plain angry I got thinking about how constant white-anting defeatism from the very beginning has put us where we are now.

    People are dying now because when people weren't dying, capitalists and the alliance of nutters demanded bubbles and relaxed restrictions and overseas holidays etc etc etc. Fuck 'em all. They managed to trip us up on the final lap.

    So now the government is fighting a holding action against progressive expansion of covid in the hope the health system doesn't get overwhelmed. It's just such a pointless waste. We fucking had this thing. Another few months would have drastically changed the game, and much fewer people wouldn't be wondering whether they should go to the hospital because they were coughing up blood.

    Gah. Fuck everything.

    • weka 19.1

      Same. I have to step away from thinking about it a lot.

      Are you think the break was with the border control and delta getting in? Or when Labour gave up on elimination?

      how constant white-anting defeatism from the very beginning has put us where we are now.

      it still blows my mind. I can generally understand most political positions even the ones I outright hate. But this one I really don't get, that we should just have let a whole lot of people die. Do they not realise it might be them or their loved ones?

      • McFlock 19.1.1

        Death by a thousand nags, rather than any specific point.

        Got lucky a couple of times, lucked out once or twice. But the constant rust eroding every single effort… just corrosive. Even if the govt had stood firm, enforcement would have had to get more drastic and still be less successful.

        I think the ones who should know better, but were consultants for an international airport or wanted their nightclubs open 24/7 (or whatever) generally felt they could minimise their personal exposure. Who cares if your bar staff get it, you're isolating on a lifestyle block and working remotely. Isolation from society helps the tamakis. The rest? Just sad.

      • Dennis Frank 19.1.2

        Seems obvious that Delta got spread by those who crossed borders. Rule-breakers got helped by bureaucrats using privacy law to prevent the public punishing them. Haven't seen much evidence of the system punishing them either, so I got the impression nobody was serious about the rules.

        How many other folk got the same impression? If you enforce rules, people take them more seriously. Instead, we got an official sham. Understandably, Labour's poll rating dropped significantly compared to last year's effort.

        • RedLogix

          Delta is endemic globally. Unless you were going to absolutely isolate NZ – and I mean no-one ever entered the border indefinitely into the future – then it was always going to arrive. It was just a matter of time.

          There were only ever two justifications for lockdowns and isolation. Initially we needed to apply the precautionary principle in the face of a novel and unknown virus. The second was to buy time in order to prepare as best we could for COVID's inevitable arrival.

          As far as the first precautionary principle is concerned that has pretty much expired. (And we might note the irony of the 'vax or die' crowd de-humanising those who would apply the same principle when faced with a novel vaccine with unknowable long term safety.)

          As for preparing for the inevitable arrival of Delta, it seems to me that if public health really had been our top priority there was quite a deal more than could have been done.

          • aj

            This is not encouraging.

            • RedLogix

              Not it isn't. That last sentence nails it for me.

              Any strategy that relied on 90% or more of people complying with it, especially when it came to a novel vaccine technology, was always going to be high stakes politically.

              • Ad

                But that isn't what either New Zealand or Australia have done.

                • RedLogix

                  True – but it's come at a cost. The anti-protests in NSW and VIC have been both a lot more politically intense and damaging than anything NZ has experienced.

                  Last I looked Melbourne was closing in on 280 days of lockdown in the past 12 months – one of the highest in the world.

        • McFlock

          Would people have taken the rules more seriously without a year of defeatists?

          Recognising inevitability is one thing, embracing it is another. Half a dozen people (give or take) are dead because we couldn't hold it together. And that number's only going to increase.

          But some people wanted xmas holidays, boo hoo.

          • Sabine

            and they will get them again this year.

            The best and smartest thing anyone can do is staying at home for the holidays.

            but not holding my breath.

  18. georgecom 20

    seems like someone within National is cranking up the ABC (anyone but collins) campaign again, stories in the NZHerald about planning a coup. A few % points increase and the Govt having a roughish time with some covid stuff and soneone within National starts sharpening the knife

  19. Herodotus 21

    Lock down in Auckland for 12 weeks-and its raining !!

    If you have a spare 2 hours I recommend The Big Short. Great to view what was happening 2007-8 and a great cast, with a movie that makes you think.

    • Dennis Frank 21.1

      Yeah I saw that way back then after I read the book by Michael Lewis. He's brilliant every time! Starting with Liar's Poker late '80s. I own around 8/9 books analysing the gfc & have read 3/4 more & it's remarkable how they all reveal new angles.

      The best is this one: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Greatest_Trade_Ever

      Although Paulson (a different one than the Paulson in Bush Jr's cabinet who had to mastermind the rescue of the system & his book is also essential) is the main focus, the book includes cameos of several other guys who bet against both the establishment & the market herd & won hugely.

    • RedLogix 21.2

      Another fabulous movie on the same theme is Margin Call.

      Tight direction, strong cast, great story-telling and in the end very moving. One of my all-time favourites.

  20. observer 22

    If anybody is still under the illusion that the guy who harangued the PM in Northland was a "journalist" and she was "avoiding the media", this is from the backgrounder in today's herald:

    • Pete 22.1

      For a journalist Shane Chafin has interesting ways of dealing with other journalists.

      From David Fisher in interviewing Chafin:

      "Do you also know I have had Muslim friends for 20 years? And they are willing to go on record." Chafin would not connect the Herald with anyone. "I'm a reporter. I can go on my channel and talk about that content any time I want to." Chafin said he had been a reporter for two months and "I'm the one making news around the world". "I made viral news around the world. When's the last time you did that?”

      Chafin floated various claims about Covid-19, which – when challenged – led to him asking: "Are you f***ing stupid? Are you mentally ill? Maybe your meds aren't right. I'm a professional – maybe I could help your psychiatrist.”

      The man who wraps his phone and computer in tin foil and puts them in a freezer asks someone else if they are mentally ill? And suggests that they have a psychiatrist?

      He came from America because he didn't like the way things were going there. (Under Obama.) I can see he doesn't like the way things are going here. We certainly don't need him here and Northland with its low vaccination rates sure doesn't need him. He should bugger off.

  21. Ad 23

    Piece of structural sadness for the day:

    Of 100 adult sexual victimisations,

    Less than 10 of those are reported to the Police.

    Of that less-than-ten number, 31% get to Court,

    and of that 31% of the less-than-ten who get the perp into Court,

    "11 per cent resulted in a conviction and

    6 per cent had a prison sentence imposed."

    (according to the 2014 New Zealand Crime and Safety Survey).

    Survivor of child sexual abuse finally gets justice by secretly recording abuser's confession – NZ Herald

    • Ross 23.1

      The other side of the same coin:

      It is claimed that the present ‘shockingly low’ conviction rate [in sexual cases] makes this bill necessary, but what is the evidence for this? The 2019 Justice Ministry ‘Attrition and Progression Report’ appears to be a main source.

      This report says that only 11% of “perpetrators” who are reported to the Police by “victims” are convicted, but is based on the erroneous assumption that all allegations are valid. Figures for these “victimisations” include all cases in which the police were unable to act (for example no perpetrator was identified or insufficient evidence to prosecute), but absurdly also those which the police deemed actually “not to be a crime” and those where the accuser recanted. Even verdicts of not guilty are included, where juries had actually found police allegations to be unsubstantiated. The report therefore flies in the face of the presumption of innocence (a basic tenet of justice), not to mention good science.

      Another incongruity is the purportedly ‘low’ conviction rate for cases that do make it to court. However, 2020 conviction rates of 39% for sexual violation and 50% for attempted sexual violation are not meagre when viewed against rates for some other violent crimes such as abductions and kidnapping (35%), aggravated robbery (41%), attempted murder (29%) and at the top, murder (56%). In no other crime is undermining defendants’ trial rights proposed to increase conviction rates.


  22. Dennis Frank 24

    Twenty or so years ago we had a tv show made here featuring spin doctors. Seemed quite good at the time. Public relations is the old label. Now we have the American beltway thing happening so we're getting a focus on lobbyists:


    Good to see Labour & the Greens getting hip to the scene (just kidding) & the revolving door thing revving up. Soon it'll be just like the USA with the same folk switching jobs between industry & regulator constantly.

    Stalin is the best model: leading revolutionary & state secret service agent simultaneously. In the middle, you get to play both sides against each other. Shapeshifter technique.

  23. Dennis Frank 25

    Oh I get it – not the Trump meme, it's morphed into homegrown:

    MAGA (Make Ardern Go Away) hats and signs dotted about


    • Shanreagh 25.1

      It has been made with the Ardern version for a little while as I have seen it used by RW people. They think it is so smart but I just think that they lack discernment – most of those NZers looking at the hat and logo think of Trump.

      The NZ ones may be out of touch and think little of aligning themselves with Trump who many NZers think is a moron. They clearly have forgotten the pounding that Todd Muller got when his Maga hat was on display. He had to say that he collected this kind of memorabilia to get any kind of sympathy for him about having a Maga hat. It just shows how out of touch this rag tag mob was/is. Then the Trump flags ………, the upside down United Tribes flag etc etc.

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  • New Ambassador to Russia announced
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