Open mike 14/03/2019

Written By: - Date published: 7:00 am, March 14th, 2019 - 194 comments
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Open mike is your post.

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194 comments on “Open mike 14/03/2019”

  1. Jenny - How to get there? 1

    Children Of The Poor

    https://www.stuff.co.nz/national/111176996/kidscan-pilot-provides-help-to-the-most-vulnerable-teacher-says

    ‘Where are we staying tonight, mummy?’….

    https://www.stuff.co.nz/national/111176996/kidscan-pilot-provides-help-to-the-most-vulnerable-teacher-says

    Being at kindergarten for six hours a day was the most stable thing in her life. She needed lots of cuddles. Some days she’d say, “I don’t like me”. It was her way of expressing how unhappy she was, not feeling the love she was used to. Because children feel loved through being cared for, tucked into their own bed at night, by parents who aren’t stressed because they can’t provide. 

    It’s an increasingly common situation. I’ve been teaching in this community for 25 years, and this is the toughest I have seen things. There’s not enough housing, and the minimum wage is no longer enough to pay rent. So we have no fees…..

    ….We had one family living in transitional housing in a motel – they had jobs but no house. They had one car and dad started work at 4.30am, so they had to get everyone up, take him to work, come back to their unit and the child would fall asleep again. When mum started work later on, she’d often bring the child in still asleep in her pyjamas. They were incredible parents, facing all that and still keeping their child’s routine, and the security of being at kindy going – no doubt utterly exhausted themselves….

    These are the families that the Government need to be poviding houses for. Not the middle class, not for private landlords.

    Working family, good parents, both working slave like hours, trying to do their best, but unable to rent. Warehoused by the last government in a motel.

    This is the real scandal. This is where the real need is..

    Forget building houses for the middle class and landlords to own. 

    Why are the homeless being ignored for the dreams of the middle class to become home owners?

    Kiwi build: The poor can’t afford them and the Middle class don’t want them. And the government are selling them off to private landlords, when they should be state rentals.

    John A. Lee, John A. Lee, John A. Lee, John A. Lee, John A. Lee, John A. Lee, John A. Lee, John A. Lee, John A. Lee, John A. Lee  

     
     

    • Rosemary McDonald 1.1

      “Kiwi build: The poor can’t afford them and the Middle class don’t want them. And the government are selling them off to private landlords, when they should be state rentals.”

      Blindingly obvious innit?

      Some were fooled into believing that this government would be different from the last.

      • Herodotus 1.1.1

        Promise to have no uni fees for the first year kept and to be extended for a 2nd year coming soon, once a degree has been obtained these grads have now have Kiwibuild. Yet many struggling families are left doing their best but sinking.
        From a macro level Labour is very much the same as national. Only difference is how well the PR companies package the respective leaders.
        IMO forget budget responsibility and invest in HNZ, like the real Labour Party once did, fix housing and many other issues will be solved. 😇

        • Molly 1.1.1.1

          The uni fee scheme is not well thought out. The offer should have been made to existing students, particularly those in the last year of their degree or course that would already be burdened by the high cost of previous years.

          It would have still remained a financial motivation for higher levels of education.

          And there is already a high degree of drop out or change in first years due to the transition from secondary to tertiary, and the move into a more independent mode of living.

          The decision to make only fees free for the first year students would also understandably, be frustrating for those already studying who are saving or borrowing to keep doing so. Politically, that decision will be remembered by all who just missed out – quite a large number I would think.

          • Rosemary McDonald 1.1.1.1.1

            “Politically, that decision will be remembered by all who just missed out – quite a large number I would think.”

            I was in the group who ‘lost’ the Family Benefit payment…and more importantly the facility to capitalise and use the $$$ as a deposit on a house. Between that, and the death of Housing Corp loans….we can just about pin point when the less than well paid were forced out of home ownership.

            Wind the clock back I say!

          • greywarshark 1.1.1.1.2

            Right Molly. It seemed like a knee-jerk reaction; a sweet that turned sour once thought about. Pretty blatant really.

            If the students get through and want a house they may find that mortgages are more difficult to arrange.
            https://www.interest.co.nz/banking/98533/government-warned-bank-backlash-wake-surprise-reserve-bank-capital-proposals-going

            The RB released a discussion document – increase tier one rate to 16% from present 11%. (The minimum common equity tier one capital ratio.)

            The amount of extra money they would be required to have on hand is equal to 70% of the banking sector’s expected profits over the next five years.

            (I don’t think banks would leave rates unchanged with that sort of drain.)

          • feijoa 1.1.1.1.3

            Molly – what you have outlined- that was NZ Firsts policy last election wasn’t it??

    • Blazer 1.2

      Well you know the answer Jenny-the poor don’t vote…the middle decide…elections.

  2. WeTheBleeple 2

    Why is the Central Interceptor (sewage pipe in Auckland) announced as if it is headline news today. I thought it was already a done deal.

    What sewage needs to be distracted from that a previously approved sewer pipe is the headline?

    • WeTheBleeple 2.1

      Hosking leads the charge in detraction that doesn’t work 101:

      “Is Simon Bridges on the come back path?”

      LOL.

      How relevant is that aye! Spokesperson for the multitudes!

      “And the fact they’ve kept Michael Cullen on at a grand a day is an outrage.”

      I’m outraged, how about you. Time to write a terse email about all this skulduggery.

      P.S. SFO investigation. SFO investigation. SFO investigation. SFO investigation…

      • Ankerrawshark 2.1.1

        We the bleeple……

        “Is Simon on the comeback path”. Hoskins. Oh yes please #lets keep Simon ha ha ha

  3. Rosemary McDonald 3

    Wobbly wheels at Pike River?

    Bernie Monk refuses to be gagged by confidentiality agreement.

    https://www.radionz.co.nz/national/programmes/morningreport/audio/2018686471/bernie-monk-says-he-won-t-be-muzzled-over-pike-re-entry

    He in the interview he referenced the Key days….clearly, after listening to the families not on the reference group…he has decided, quite rightly, to make a stand for openness and transparency.

    Respect, Bernie.

  4. Rosemary McDonald 4

    Same shit different day with disability supports as well.

    Who would have thunk it?

    https://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/news/article.cfm?c_id=1&objectid=12212304

    ” Support for the disabled is being quietly cut person by person after the Ministry of Health backed down on sector-wide funding changes, advocates say.

    Multiple providers across New Zealand said they had noticed a trend of delayed referrals, reduced support hours, and growing waiting lists in recent months.

    They estimated that Disability Support Services, which is run by the ministry, was heading for a $100 million deficit and that it was attempting to find savings before the end of the financial year.

    The ministry confirmed that an overspend was likely this year, but said no decisions had been made about funding.”

    Now, hang on just a tiny wee minute.

    This seems to be a boost to an article a few months ago in which the misleadingly named New Zealand Disability Support Network was (again) crying poverty and predicting (even more) dire outcomes for disabled Kiwis if more $$$ are not given to the businesses providing much of the disability supports.

    http://www.scoop.co.nz/stories/PO1812/S00091/disabled-nzers-at-risk-due-to-underfunding-new-report-shows.htm

    And I vaguely remember an email dropping in the old inbox from Action Station or the like with a’ sign the petition’ plea on behalf of the NZDSN.

    In my fervent bid to find cause for less pessimism at the direction this government is taking I’m wondering if perhaps the NZDSN are finding less of a sympathetic ear at the moment.

  5. esoteric pineapples 5

    Venezuela helped poor Americans in their time of need:

    “In 2005, a pair of devastating hurricanes, Katrina and Rita, led to dwindling oil supplies and skyrocketing fuel costs. Some of the poorest and most vulnerable Americans, including many elderly people on fixed incomes, found themselves having to choose between heating their homes or providing food, clothing or medicine for themselves and their families. Since that first winter, CITGO has provided 227 million gallons of free heating oil worth an estimated $465 million to an average of 153,000 US households each year. Some 252 Native American communities and 245 homeless shelters have also benefited from the program.”

    https://www.globalresearch.ca/venezuela-donated-free-heating-oil-to-100000-needy-us-households-2005-2013/5667418

    • WeTheBleeple 5.1

      Amazing. Thanks for sharing.

    • WeekendWarrior 5.2

      From what I’ve read, there is some aid for those in need in Venezuela sitting at the border. And so what is the point you are trying to make?

      • Skunk Weed 5.2.1

        US weapons more likely bud

        • WeekendWarrior 5.2.1.1

          And the Russians are providing aid in the form of food and medical supplies? You are having a laugh bud.

          • arkie 5.2.1.1.1

            “We will not be participating in what is, for us, not humanitarian aid,” stated Colombia’s International Red Cross (ICRC) spokesperson, Christoph Harnisch.

            The assistance, which is being coordinated by Venezuela’s self-proclaimed president, Juan Guaido, and the US Agency for International Development (USAID), is reportedly comprised of US $20 million worth of medical, food, and personal hygiene supplies which are currently being warehoused in the Colombian border city of Cucuta.

            Meanwhile, the United Nations has likewise raised objections to Washington’s “politicised” aid plan.

            “Humanitarian action needs to be independent of political, military or other objectives,” UN spokesman Stephane Dujarric told reporters in New York last Wednesday.

            [Maduro] also pointed out that the reported $20 million in US aid pales in comparison to the estimated US $30 million per day the new US oil embargo will cost Venezuela this year. On January 28, US National Security Advisor John Bolton unveiled the latest round of economic sanctions prohibiting corporations under US jurisdiction from purchasing oil from Venezuela’s PDVSA state oil company, which he said will deny the company US $11 billion in revenues in 2019. Bolton also announced a freezing of Houston-based PDVSA subsidiary CITGO’s assets, which are valued at US $7 billion.

            “If [the US] wants to help, then lift the sanctions,” Maduro urged at a recent press conference.

            https://venezuelanalysis.com/news/14316

            So the Red Cross and the UN are skeptical of this aid, what makes you so sure?

            Bolton has said, in public, the US wants the oil.
            Elliot Abrams, of Contras fame, is now the US ‘special representative for Venezuela’.

          • greywarshark 5.2.1.1.2

            No one is laughing WeeWarrior. We are thinking all week, at a deeper level than you. What about putting up reference links to your assertions. Talk and smart remarks come easy. Joined up thought a little longer and harder.
            But you can fight your way through your inertia Warrior.

      • mauī 5.2.2

        Aid provided by a neo-liberal opposition leader and Richard Branson? Do they have the countries best interests at heart? Meanwhile you really think the elected socialist prime minister is intent on starving his own people? Something very wrong with the story you’re reading…

      • Kevin 5.2.3

        Says who they require aid?
        CNN? MSNBC?, Fox?

        Mainstream US media are just cheerleaders for regime change. There is no objectivity in their reporting, they are just repeaters of White House talking points.

        There is plenty of info out there from people who live there. Look it up, it’s not hard.

        A journalist dares to question the State Dept about Guaido’s legitimacy.

    • Like +100% I come here to get my daily news

  6. Peter 6

    Children of the poor? How about another example of how the world works for children of the rich?

    https://edition.cnn.com/2019/03/12/us/college-admission-cheating-scheme-players/index.html

  7. patricia bremner 7

    Jenny you give no credit for the huge task of renewing fixing and the stock take of current New Zealand Housing stock. You make no mention of not requesting a dividend, the community growth activities, the purpose built properties. Reading your critique I am left with the “nothing is being done impression.”

    What is happening in this area is huge, and highly successful. The measures are fierce.
    Reading the report for the 17/18/19 years made me sad and proud. The work is staggering.
    They have righted wrongs with the previous meth testing debacle under Bennett.
    They are building 3 new homes a day, placed 1600 extra homeless people into accommodation during last winter, and stopped the sell off of state homes. They have provided a winter warmth payment for 5 months, a programme of warm dry homes, meaning by 2024 all the current 26000+ homes will be retrofitted and all the new builds will meet the new standards. They are helping people buy a home.

    The programme is so successful that people who had given up ever getting on it are turning up in droves. This shows the real need, and gives the Government the information needed to tackle the problem. Now they have proved how bad the housing crisis had become. They have put plans in place and in 17 months have given the treasury and the Minister of finance a clear picture of the need.

    Hence the planned attack through various ministries and hopefully the CGT which will help ramp things up if we get it through. Also the changes to Tradies’ education and training, making Trades attractive again, and the free training meaning no big loans to pay back. They are attacking problems in a global fashion rather than a piecemeal patch and run the previous crowd did.

    When you criticise remember how Jacinda Ardern is always building consensus, and has to deal with Green aspirations and New Zealand First conservatism. Along with that she has a new raw team running flat out to deal with all the hidden underfunded crappy stuff that went before, let alone establish new directions.

    Twyford has admitted that Kiwi Build has not functioned as he had hoped… mainly because the criteria to buy is too narrow and could do with a Government Grant and a one year no interest on the loan to allow the buyers to succeed. He is now looking at successful Government supported rental and leasing housing schemes in Australia and overseas. Looking for best practice. This because he wants renters to have choices buyers to have choices, and those in supported living to have choices.

    None of this is easy, and this Minister also has the Transport folio. John A Lee indeed!! He would not have known where to start with all the complexities and problems presented. You are crying out for simpler times, when Governments and Ministers did not have to give up building land because it could be claimed by the sea in 10 years time!! You present some good ideas at times, but truly this has not been a fair post IMO.

    People will always want more, quickly in a crisis, and that is fair but not easy.

    • Molly 7.1

      Rent to buy schemes supported by the government is a mistake in two ways:
      1. It reinforces inflated prices in the market by providing buyers that would be otherwise non-existent,
      2. It does nothing to deflate the housing costs for renters or buyers long term.

      What is does do is reassure the middle class that their children may have access to home ownership with the assistance of the government. And they can consider the housing crisis to be no more than that.

      • patricia bremner 7.1.1

        Rentals and Leasing does not replace other housing efforts. Employers wanting accommodation for Hospital workers or other work couple with the Government to build and let in Aus. is a success, especially near transport.
        The Housing NZ homes are a separate case. Rents are often subsidised by the Government if they are in Cities. So our Government is looking at different schemes for those who do not qualify for HNZ help, also do not have enough to buy in the City. Why is that wrong? Housing needs many strings to the bow.
        Houses have lost 18% in some parts of Auckland, so a period of slow or low growth lets savers draw a breath.

        • Molly 7.1.1.1

          The priority for housing New Zealanders rentals or otherwise has not been indicated, either by considered announcement or action.

          The Kiwibuild programme, demonstrated the priority of this government, and the publicity surrounding it demonstrated the impact they thought it would have on the voting public. The critiques offered in response to that were valid, and are easily picked up by the opposition.

          Social (as opposed to state) housing and private partnership programmes in the long-term are not beneficial to housing locals in the long term. While they may achieve KPI’s in the short term and for a proportion of those currently unhoused or precariously housed.

          As you mention, the housing crisis is a result of multiple strands. The sole suggestion of CGT, ignoring such possibilities as landbanking taxes, second dwelling taxes, and equity uplift taxes shows a BAU approach.

          I am not surprised by the current government’s actions. I think housing has been the sole means of many NZ’ers getting financially wealthy. Past – and current – immigration, taxation, planning and welfare policies have created that situation. Effectively addressing the housing crisis is a political hot potato. I just think the current actions will be ineffective, particularly for the most transient and unhoused.

          • patricia bremner 7.1.1.1.1

            Hi Molly, So, you don’t rate Kiwi Build and think “current actions will be ineffective, particularly for the most transient and unhoused”.

            Could you say what you think might work? Are you a crash the market supporter?

            • Molly 7.1.1.1.1.1

              There are many factors that need to be changed, and I’ve written on this many times before. And I believe you have summarily dismissed any suggestions without discussing any, but here goes again.

              For starters:

              Making a definitive statement about the necessity for considerable long-term state investment in housing to alleviate the pressure on low-income families would be a start. And making that a priority, and using a SROI to meet their own (mistakenly) adopted budgetary restraint.

              Changing residential ownership to New Zealanders only – regardless of whether it is new or not.

              Reinstating for an interim period a Housing New Zealand loan facility for long-term mortgages, that offers a lower rate to home owners who occupy their mortgaged home. (That evens the playing field as many investors have their occupied residents as fully paid off as possible, so they can leverage for their tax income on their rentals). This will help owners weather a depression in the market. Which needs to happen to some degree, as it is unlikely that incomes will rise to meet the gap that has arisen. As those mortgages are repaid the money is returned to the ether from which it was created.

              Taxation policies that discourage people from landbanking in order to increase capital gains when other NZers don’t have access to housing. Higher taxation/rates on second and subsequent homes – to distinguish between those who are flipping and inadvertently contributing to housing inflation, and those who are in the business of renting.

              Pure state development of housing in communities. Utilising sole responsibility and authority to ensure houses are built to consider environmental, health and wellbeing of the residents and the communities in which they are built. Using those developments to implement trades apprenticeships for locals, who will have the ability to experience all stages of housing while being trained.

              Support and development for local one-off developer/resident projects, like co-housing.

              Creating and utilising mechanisms such as permanent affordability, so that any houses released to market by the state remain at a certain percentage of market price, when it is onsold.

              Providing security on state housing tenancy, and building communities as well as houses. National policy statements using the Resource Management Act can direct local councils to pay attention to the need for well-designed intensive housing.

              No. I don’t rate Kiwibuild. It had a failure of purpose, and a really non-egalitarian intended outcome. Unfortunately, much of the criticism given to it by the opposition was warranted. Even though the opposition contributed to the problem, they are not in power now.

              • patricia bremner

                Hi Molly, I don’t think I remember discounting your ideas, as many of them seem quite well thought through and sensible. Thanks for your reply.

    • WeTheBleeple 7.2

      Thank you for your post.

      Jenny appears to be here to dump on the current government – not discuss things. her hijacking of the How To Get There (HTGT) label is offensive to me, like if I came here to TS, called myself John – The Standard, and spent my efforts rubbishing the left via right wing media links. That’d be considered problematic I’m sure.

      I think moderators should force a name change to detach her from HTGT, as her MO is anathema to what HTGT has been created for.

      [lprent: I have no idea what you’re talking about. Ah now I see. We care about duplication on handles, people using different handles to avoid bans, attempted identity theft, things that could get us into court, nasty formatting issues from oversize handles, self-evident excessive levels of hypocrisy, and excessive number of changes in handles.

      If I see Jenny start to change handles excessively then she will receive my excesses of attention (usually involving changing every instance of her handle on the site to something that expresses my opinion of people wasting my time).

      If it just involves people disagreeing then that can be countered by “robust debate” ]

      • I’m not sure that handle modification is required in this case. My read of it is that Jenny identifies with the ethos of HTGT and has adopted the post’s name in solidarity. Jenny has had conflict in the distant past with mods regarding the style of her comments and it seems to me that her commenting has improved over time. That’s not to say, I, you, or anyone has to agree with her opinions. This site is set up for debate and it’s inevitable that the actions (or inactions) of the Government will be too much for some, and too little for others. As the mystics say, the steel is forged in the fire.

        • WeTheBleeple 7.2.1.1

          It is not so much Jenny, as the hijacking of the Sunday thread’s title, that got up my nose – that’s more a misunderstanding than a personality thing. You see, and TRP knows as he’s watched/helped it evolve, we’ve at least tried to keep the sunday thread non-critical. The key word being tried.

          Yes Jenny has relevant stuff to say, but under a name using the sunday threads name, while being consistently critical. This is fine but always with the how to get there name attached… We all like to poke at something on open mike but sunday we were trying to do something positive.

          Do you get that? The tone of what Jenny delivers here is exactly what we’ve tried to avoid in Sunday’s How to Get There.

          And Jenny has every right to deliver what she sees fit and moderators reserve the right to moderate what they see fit.

          Yadda yadda.

      • Tuppence Shrewsbury 7.2.2

        Jenny has been here longer than you, contributed more of interest than you and provoked more intelligent discussion than you.

        Facebook is an amazing source for views you agree with and nothing else

        • Sam 7.2.2.1

          Facebook is for old people

          • Tuppence Shrewsbury 7.2.2.1.1

            woosh

            • Sam 7.2.2.1.1.1

              OK then, let’s reverse the last quest. What’s a good way to tell if someone has genuine talent and not just faking it?

              • Tuppence Shrewsbury

                the fuck are you talking about this time? do you honestly think i stalk you and keep track of all your utterances. I pegged you for being a few cans short of a six pack a while ago.

                But your bold, incisive and dramatic pronouncement that facebook is for old people has changed my mind. Please go on

                • Sam

                  Impressive but, you don’t have to question me. It’s difficult enough to create value by finding a product market fit even as the largest media platform on the planet. Asking a “decentralized” app to do the same thing when you are shackled by a jerry-rigged terms of reference and very little accountability.

                  People underestimate how hard it is to create something that works.

        • WeTheBleeple 7.2.2.2

          Considering the HTGT theme is recent, you talk rubbish. But I knew that already.

          And I’ve not been on facebook coming up to four years now.

          • Tuppence Shrewsbury 7.2.2.2.1

            Come get your facebook non attendance internet medal legend.

            Jenny has been on here for a long time. she just changed her handle once the HTGT theme was mooted. Not my favorite theme but i respect the lack of argument there and stay away accordingly.

      • Skunk Weed 7.2.3

        Similar behaviour to Gosman and James, probably the same people.

        • In Vino 7.2.3.1

          If you mean Tuppence Shrewsbury, I agree. But I don’t find it clear who you are addressing. Jenny, from 7.2?

  8. Dennis Frank 8

    I was intrigued by No Right Turn’s reference to “non-Public Service departments subject to the Official Information Act”. Does this mean some state employees aren’t public servants? Apparently so, according to this govt website: http://www.ssc.govt.nz/state_sector_organisations

    So does that mean civil servants is a broader category that includes public servants? If so, who knew?? Or are both historical terms, no longer valid?

    • patricia bremner 8.1

      Dennis it was so they did not get the pay protections… the cheaper version.

      • Dennis Frank 8.1.1

        Thanks Patricia, obviously it happened years ago. When I was working in the TVNZ newsroom during the 1990s I joined the PSA even though it was optional, and was aware that many others in the org were also members, even though the SOE was no longer part of the public service.

        It was the notion that some govt depts are not part of the public service that was new to me this morning. I just don’t get that at all!

  9. Reality 9

    The thing that is being overlooked by those criticising the government, which is in stark contrast to the 9 years of National, is that they really really want to get improvements across a whole range of areas. Not easy, in fact very hard after those 9 years. Can we say National wanted things to get better? No, status quo and looking after investors was their priority.

    • vto 9.1

      Exactly.

      What people forget is that National Party people are CONSERVATIVES

      Conservatives don’t do things.
      Conservatives never lead in new directions. Ever.
      Conservatives can’t see the future.

      John Key was a full blown CONSERVATIVE
      So too of course was Bill English, Bolger, Slipley, Bridges – they are all useless CONSERVATIVES

      I have no idea why people want them to “lead” a country – they don’t lead, never have.

      CONSERVATIVES have only one use and that is as the horrid ballast in the hold of the ship. Never, ever, let them near the tiller

      • Kevin 9.1.1

        Written by a former Standard regular, a few year ago now, but still relevant:

        “It seems to me that many who self-identify as “conservative” – especially at an early age, the sort of panty-sniffers and thumb-suckers you find in the young nats for example – seem to have never examined exactly what it is they’re identifying as. It’s more like a club they join that offers the security of never having to examine themselves (or anything else) too closely for comfort.

        And understandable if so. Imagine the cognitive dissonance that would arise from actually admitting to yourself that you think things are as good as they’ll ever be and we’d best just stop now, um actually let’s go back a bit just to be sure.”

    • Rosemary McDonald 9.2

      And before the nine years of National/Act/Maori Party we had nine years of Labour.

      National just kept the wheels rolling..the infrastructure to screw the poor and most vulnerable was already there. Imo.

      We were given the impression that the Lovingkindness was going to be aimed at those most disadvantaged by the Previous Encumbrances, but sadly, no.

      Yes, I get that this lot are going to need the vote from the Middle to get back in, and they just might (judging by the support voiced in these pages), but unless the working poor still cannot afford to rent a decent home…then, at the very least, fewer people will vote at all.

      SSDD

      • patricia bremner 9.2.1

        Rosemary you may be right, but I don’t think this is now deliberate policy. I could be wrong, I hope those three good people prevail in spite of the obstacles, having met and talked with them I feel they are sincere. I agree it might not be enough, but I hope so.

    • adam 9.3

      *sigh* ‘reality’ you think running with the same economic policy, but saying we have kindness – will get different results. Not a bad definition of the loony left, right there.

      I say, put down the crack pipe. Or grow up, your choice. The problem is the economic system. And not changing it – just means more of the same.

      But then again, asking white middle class NZ to give up any of their privilege is like punching yourself in the face, eventually you stop – because it’s pointless.

  10. Observer Tokoroa 10

    100% Patricia Bremner

    The Trolls are falling to bits.

    The people who sit on their ass criticising the enormous amount of work required by reestablishing Housing in New Zealand absolutely pathetic. It is a Monumental Task.

    Caused entirely by the Government of the past – who sold off assets and housing to friends and bolstered the income of the Wealthy. The lack of accountability was and remains Appalling.

    The Stupidity of the critics as compared with what has been achieved in 17 months, is there for all to see.

    Well Done. Patricia

    • marty mars 10.1

      + 1 sums it up well

    • patricia bremner 10.2

      Thanks, Observer Tokoroa, I felt there needed to be a listing of what has changed… We all hope for more and a secure future, but change is so fast lots of ideas will not stand the test of time.

  11. Ankerrawshark 11

    Here, here Patricia.

    A bit disappointed to hear govt efforts being criticized on TS although of course people are entitled to do it. But really more than enough criticism in the msm (nationals informal spin machine)……

    I believe that tywford et al really genuinely want to solve the housing crisis. It must be a mamouth task and I recognize there may be mistakes or policies that don’t work so well, but I believe they will and have made a difference, even there’s a long way to go and I thank them for their considerable efforts.

    I remember the Nats and their lies (John key and the msm visits with the Salvation Army to homeless in their cars, Nats only getting off their arses to do something when news hub exposed homelessness crisis

  12. Pat 12

    A timely and necessary question was discussed this morning on RNZ….economist and author (and it appears eminently sensible person) Kate Raworth interviewed and is to visit NZ in May for public discussion….I hope our leaders attend and gain some insight but more importantly some courage

    https://www.radionz.co.nz/national/programmes/ninetonoon/audio/2018686503/kate-raworth-a-good-doughnut

    • patricia bremner 12.1

      Yes Pat, I agree this economic theory beautifully challenges the “forever Growth crowd”.

    • Blazer 13.1

      Some may find ‘no school’…appealing.

      • Anne 13.1.1

        Yes. 🙂
        But as the good doctor pointed out… we have plenty of laws already that are there for the health and safety of people. Two examples:
        laws on smoking.
        laws on wearing seat-belts.

        He suggest we think about a law regarding children being immunised in the same way as having to wear a seat-belt in a car. It’s about saving lives.

        • Rosemary McDonald 13.1.1.1

          Other than not allowing the children to attend publicly funded schools, and given the atrocious truancy rates from Te Tai Tokerau…
          (https://www.radionz.co.nz/news/national/382780/northland-principals-urge-crackdown-on-parents-over-truancy)
          …this might not be too much of a penalty, what other punishment does the good doctor propose?

          Fines? Imprisonment? Children removed from parent’s care?

          Lance is another ‘expert media personalty’ who might benefit from taking a calming breath or two and try following the advice from the Top Person at the Immunization Advisory Council.

          “Auckland University Immunisation Advisory Centre head Nikki Turner said said there was no need for a separate public health campaign against anti-vaxxers.

          “I don’t think we should ignore the anti-vaccination lobby but I think we should put it into context.

          “It is a very small percentage of the New Zealand population.

          “We need to understand it and respond to it, and definitely put more resources and thinking into it, but it is a very small part of why we are not getting high immunisation coverage rates.”

          Dr Turner said there were other problems with delivering immunisations, beyond what she called vaccine hesitancy, and New Zealand would be better off dealing with those.

          “We need to systematically know which children are missing out and offer them services.

          “And then respond appropriately in those localised communities that have got myth and rumour and social media stories rife within them.

          “That’s where we need extra support.”

          https://www.radionz.co.nz/news/national/384112/hospital-bosses-want-anti-anti-vax-campaign

          So…read the article….yes, take on board what the dhb’s are saying…but ffs put it into context. Also, folks here should know by now that the DHBs are hardly the bastions of credibility they ought to be on health matters.

          Labeling people “anti-vaxxers” and baying for their blood is not helping.

          Beggars belief that some folks simply can’t see that it is making this worse.

          Bullies.

        • solkta 13.1.1.2

          Those are all false comparisons. None of them are medical treatments. Sullivan appears not to understand the law re forced medical treatment which is surprising for a doctor.

          I am not an an anti-vaxxer and have had my daughter immunised but i am also respectful of human rights.

          • Anne 13.1.1.2.1

            Except immunising someone is not ‘medical treatment’ for a disease. It is preventing that person from contracting it – or reducing the toxicity of the disease so they they have a chance of a full recovery – should they come into contact with the disease. In that sense, it is a preventable measure in the same way as wearing one’s seat-belt.

            Human rights in my view does not enter the equation if by refusing to take a certain course of action you are endangering the well-being and/or the lives of others. That is why we have many of our laws in the first place.

            • solkta 13.1.1.2.1.1

              immunising someone is not ‘medical treatment’

              Bullshit. Wearing a seat-belt does not make physiological changes.

              Human rights in my view

              That may be, but you no the law.

            • One Two 13.1.1.2.1.2

              NO HUMAN RIGHTS SAYS ANNE!

              Anne. You are incorrect…again…

              It is a medical procedure injecting foreign and toxic substances directly into individuals who are not sick…

              Short circuiting and tricking the immune into a false response mechanism bypassing the bodys natural sequence for defending against pathogens…

              The false response was derived to measure antigen levels which are used to sell the product based on false efficacy premise, which is inferior to full cell immunity confered by natural recovery from illness…

              Do you also understand that outbreaks occur in highly vaccinated populations ?

              Do you understand vaccine 101?

              Including why so called herd immunity is a flawed and failed theory…impossible to achieve outside of a mathematics?

              * vaccine failure rates
              * vaccines waning terms
              * acquired immunity
              * zero response

              Do you even care to understand Anne..or are you simply going to plunder on with a crazed form of ignorance on this forum?

              • SPC

                Survived A, now fully and naturally immune, survived B now fully and naturally immune, survived C fully and naturally immune, got D and now …

                I guess those with unvaccinated kids home school, and wrap them up so they do not get cuts when outside – hard to keep the kids pure and natural if there is tetanus risk huh.

              • Stunned Mullet

                Good grief ! Such pseudo scientific nonsense from he of the overused ellipsis.

              • left_forward

                Bull.

              • Bazza64

                I thought One Two was just a wifi nutter, but he is also an anti vaccine clown as well. I’m sure he would rather catch polio & recover naturally (after spending time in an iron lung) than be vaccinated.

                You can’t help meatheads like this.

                • McFlock

                  Dunning-Kruger meets Deepak Chopra.

                • Andre

                  Just wait for the numerology and the clandestine weather modification programs.

                  Nuttier than the buffet at a squirrel convention, but at least there’s plenty of variety.

              • One Two

                * 7 different handles have replied to this comment (original appears to have avoided another response)

                * 4 handles used the fearful technique of name calling and ad homs

                * 2 handles responded using nothing but a half word

                * 1 handle made an effort at an actual response

                Zero handles of the 7 provided a single counter to the straight forward, and easily verifiable dot points I raised in response to Anne…

                Total of 8 handles in a sub thread making zero contribution in a meaningful or genuine manner to this discussion…

                Each of the 8 (and others) have made statements which have no basis in actual science, outside of vaccine science, which is literal pseudoscience being sidelined at rapidly accelerating pace…alongside those with such views as exhibited amongst the 8 handles being referred to…

                As actual scientific developments continue to push vaccine science exposure further into the open…in turn it should follow that improved discourse will encourage greater numbers of industry and academia to step out from their cowed…industry funded and supported positions…

                Ideally so as to assist in raising the standard of discourse away from name calling and ad hom smears, towards a level of sincerity which such a crucial subject deserves, must, and will attain…

                Not a single statement any handles here, myself included, write , think or say can alter the powerful progression towards an inevitable, and desirable outcome of greatly improved discourse, alongside transparent and genuine adherance to the Scientific Method.

                • Stunned Mullet

                  For those that can’t be bothered reading one two’s post I’ve formulated a quick precis below.

                  Waffle……parp……..ponitifcate……….falsify………lie……..misquote……waffle………accuse……….ponitifcate…………phhhhwaaaap……..eh.

                • marty mars

                  No one rates your teaching – and some have praised you – get over yourself dim.

                  • One Two

                    marty, you’re better than that comment , eh?

                    I’ll repeat what I’ve said in the 5G posts to Ingonito…

                    I’m not a teacher, nor is it my intent to be so…abuse, praise, agree or disagree…all leading towards the same outcomes IMO…all appreciated and accepted with the same face 😉

                    get over yourself dim

                    Sounds like you have some bridges of your own to build, marty…

                    Don’t project your crap onto me…

                    • marty mars

                      Your lines are well rehearsed. Do you have children you’re not vaccinating? Or is this all academic.

                      Were you vaccinated as a nipper?

                    • One Two []

                      Rehearsed you say, marty…that is incorrect…

                      What basis do you have for presuming that is ‘true’?

                      As an aside…you can’t seriously anticipate I’ll respond to any question of yours, when what you’ve done is throw insults…surely ?

                      In any case I can see from your written thinking in the questions…

                      …any references to past history would be irrelevant, and quite easily and effectively, evidence to being, ‘moot’ …

                    • marty mars

                      Yeah I thought so – just talk. Well get this – we didn’t vaccinate but reading your stuff has convinced me and next week the boys get the jab. I refuse to live in fear and be associated with anti vaxxers – so thanks one two you have actually done good work.

                    • One Two []

                      Marty, your comment indicates that you’ve outsourced your parental responsibility, by using blog site commentary as a ‘rationale’ for changing your current perspective on a medical procedure…

                      Listen very carfully to my next comment…

                      Take responsibility for your own choices, and that of your children…

                      Don’t ever…ever seek to offload your medical choices to my handle, or anyone else…blog site, face to face…it doesn’t matter the interaction…

                      Own the choices..they are yours…and yours alone…

                      If you are actually serious…for the record I take no position, and bare no accountability for, or against your decision…nor could I be accountable for any possible outcome, positive, negative or otherwise resulting from your decisions…choices you make, marty…

                      I hope I’ve made that suitably clear…

                      It would be appropriate for you to respond saying you have received that messaging…

                      Should you choose to go ahead with the procedure…then post the dated scripts…and backup your comments with proof of YOUR actions resulting from YOUR choices..

                    • marty mars

                      Oh shit up you fuckwit. Were not all as stupid as you. I’m not interested in anything you have to say. You’re a joke.

                    • One Two []

                      Pleased to read you’re fighting fit, marty…

                      I was genuinely concerned by your comment there…for your well being…

                      Have a good one…

                    • marty mars

                      Mate I feel awesome. Although got two teeth pulled yesterday. Amazing the fear for me in the chair. The injections, the murder house memories, the pain real and anticipated. I was proud to say take them out and then sit through it all, the crack of the tooth, the stars behind my clenched eyes.

                      and as you have noted I also made some brave decisions for my family and it is hard because I live in a alternative thinking hotspot in this country.

                      One two i wish happiness for you. Sorry for abusing you – not my finest moment and no one deserves that shit.

                    • One Two []

                      Thanks Marty, apology accepted…very gracious of you…

                      Same as yourself, I genuinely care for all living beings and mean no harm to anyone or anything…even when it gets hostile…

                      Also , it is not my contention in comments or real life to influence or sway anyones opinions or decisions…

                      If someone asks my thoughts ill always share in the most honest way I can, while seeking to leave any form of bias out aside…

                      Good stuff with the teeth…can relate…be there…loads of teeth yanked..different story…

                      Regarding your decisions…all any parents/adults can do is give our best to take in as much info as possible from all quarters, until be arrive at a point where making a decision feels as if we are doing our absolute utmost…

                      I re-read your comments and got the sense you were actually seeking something from me…the questions I didn’t answer etc…

                      If you would like to have an open Q&A…then I’m cool with that…as you like…

                      I have only posted a single link on the total discussion…not counting the relative risk link to McFlock…

                      I will be posting one more link to a document…which IMO should be read and understood by every adult/parent on planet earth…

                      No hyperbole, marty…no intent to influence…

                      Again, thank you for the apology and friendly words…

                      Cheers marty…

                • Bazza64

                  This is too much for me, I can’t “handle” it

                • JohnSelway

                  “Not a single statement any handles here, myself included, write , think or say can alter the powerful progression towards an inevitable, and desirable outcome of greatly improved discourse, alongside transparent and genuine adherance to the Scientific Method.”

                  Wow, just….wow….

                  The other day I explained the the scientific method to you in some detail and you pronounced it “scientism” or some such nonsense and now here you are proclaiming that no one adheres to the scientific method.

                  Here’s an ad hom for you – you’re fucked up.

                  • One Two

                    Selway, your recollection is full of holes…

                    Multiple commentators including myself called out your failed efforts at describing the ‘scientific process’ as you called it…

                    Of course you can’t understand that comment…which is why you went directly to ad hom…

                    Pack up your grudge…take your deflated sack of ignorace with you, and keep your commentary respones to those who share your complete ignorance of ‘science’…

                    You’re another of those who has abdicated responsibility to expand and improve on your knowledge base…

                  • Stunned mullet

                    Phil’s not a bad guy just delusional. I blame it on the English teachers at Rosmini..

                • Kevin

                  The good old days when you just recovered from tetanus and built up that ‘natural immunity’…

                  https://www.theguardian.com/football/blog/2019/jan/10/the-forgotten-story-of-di-jones-footballers-died-tetanus

    • Andre 13.2

      Problem is, is yet again it’s the kids going to pay the price for parental stupidity. The big problem is how to sheet home accountability to parents that refuse vaccination for their kids.

      I’m thinking lawsuits. If someone’s unvaccinated kid is spreading disease, hold the parent responsible for all the treatment costs of all the subsequent infections. If someone sues their parents because they’ve suffered from a vaccine preventable disease their parents refused the vaccination for, then the presumption should be the offspring wins unless the parents have a very very solid medical reason for the vaccination refusal.

      • One Two 13.2.1

        Let’s begin checking your foundational understanding…

        * Do vaccines have 100% success rate?

        * Can vaccinated individuals spread the disease they were vaccinated against?

        Frame your views on compulsory vaccination and law suits in terms of the following:
        (Because that is what the lawyers will be doing)

        * Medical
        * Scientific
        * Legal
        * Ethical

        Go on, Andre…

        • Andre 13.2.1.1

          I doubt a future court case will be framed and argued the way you think it should be. In any case, that choice will be up to the plaintiff’s lawyers. Maybe that plaintiff will be someone like one of these three but not quite so forgiving:

          https://edition.cnn.com/2019/03/05/health/vaccines-measles-senate-hearing/index.html

          https://edition.cnn.com/2019/03/07/health/measles-josh-nerius/index.html

          https://www.sciencealert.com/oregon-parents-refuse-further-vaccination-after-their-child-nearly-dies-from-tetanus

          Or maybe the waters will get tested by someone that incurs enormous medical bills as a result of contact with an infectious unvaccinated person. Or maybe it will be a governmental or private health organisation left with enormous unpaid expenses from treating the unvaccinated. Or maybe governments will get tired of getting stuck with the bill for treating the unvaccinated and those they infect, and they will pass legislation explicitly making pro-diseasers accountable for the costs they impose on others.

          In any case, knowingly spreading disease is already a prosecutable offence in at least some cases, as shown by prosecutions of HIV spreaders. It’s only a small step extending the ideas behind HIV prosecutions to holding accountable those responsible for negligently or knowingly or maliciously spreading other diseases by refusing safe and effective vaccinations.

          • Stunned Mullet 13.2.1.1.1

            Come now Andre as you should know HIV is all a plot by multinational pharma…. rant…………ellipsis……….parp.

          • SPC 13.2.1.1.2

            Sadly it took the ACA to make US health insurers cover vaccination, and of course since then there have been roll backs, one reason why they have such high health costs is that they are dumb.

          • One Two 13.2.1.1.3

            Andre, given the clarity of the 2 questions I posed to you… I can only deduce that your avoidance in providing answers to them, was deliberate…

            Deliberate because you have no idea what you’re talking about..not the slightest knowledge to form a coherent response for 2 straight forward questions…

            It is my contention that you are not even at vaccine science 101 level of understanding…

            I’ll use your comments as evidence of your lacking in basic understanding of the discussion as it relates to your failings in logic and reasoning…

            * HIV is not a communicable disease
            * Tetanus is neither a communicable disease, nor is it a virus

            Like Anne and others, you too have decided not to expand your knowledge and understanding…the links and your flawed responses strongly signal your complacency on this issue…yet you continue to author comments which serve only to highlight your complete lack of fundamental understanding…

            I’ve previously suggested that you move on from Gorski level which is clealy contributing to your complete congnitive dissonance…

            Actually…you should keep reading at Gorski level…it’s what you want to do…

            But while you are at Gorski level (in fact you’re far beneath even that)…you should consider staying away from this subject…

            The levels of complete ignorance from yourself and others on this…is as staggering as it is unsurprising…

            • McFlock 13.2.1.1.3.1

              * HIV is not a communicable disease

              I guess this list of communicable diseases is incorrect, then.

              And the World Health Organisation.

              And the NZ ministry of Health.

              But then I guess we can’t all read the matrix as it scrolls by like you can. Hell, if we could then we’d know why you asked two binary questions in a discussion that comes down to relative risk.

              • One Two

                Gidday McFlock…long time…

                Firstly I’ll say that your level of misunderstanding, while not quite as complete as those you prefer to engage with elsewhere on the subject…it still below the fundamental level required for meaningful discourse…

                That, and you’re still playing games around the blog site, even when you’ve been caught out…and here you are…engaging me with your churlish and disingenuous response to an engagement with Andre…

                For the purposes of the ‘vaccine discussion’ HIV has no basis for inclusion as a communicable disease…because…

                * HIV is not included in the recommended vaccine schedules relevant to this discussion

                Therefore HIV is outside the scope of this discussion…

                The 2 questions were for Andre…and he , like yourself is unable to provide the straight forward…and yes…binary answer which is appropriate to the questions….

                You exhibited further your lack of understanding and interest, except by incorrectly referring to relative risk as if somehow adds credibility to your comment…which it does not…

                This will be my only reply you get…you can go back to avoiding responding to my comments…as I will go back to not engaging with yours…

                https://www.thelancet.com/journals/lancet/article/PIIS0140-6736(05)61024-0/fulltext

                Risk ratios are widely misused in ways that exaggerate both the benefits and harms of drugs. 

                This is especially true when a risk ratio is called “relative risk”

                Relative risk does not measure “risk” at all, because risk has dimensions, such as observed deaths per 100 or 1000 people. 

                However, a risk ratio has no dimensions because they cancel in calculating the ratio. 

                Thus, if a drug changes risk from two deaths per 100 people to one death per 100 people, the risk ratio (0·5) is the same as if the drug changes risk from two deaths per 1000 people to one death per 1000 people.

                It is wrong to call these changes a “50% decreased risk”

                The misuse of risk ratios in ways that exaggerate the benefits of drugs is common.1

                • McFlock

                  It is a communicable disease. It’s just not a vaccine-preventable disease.

                  And the comment was relevant because it goes to being reckless when it comes to infecting other people with your diseases.

                  As for relative risk, all that letter to Lancet says is that changes in relative risk should not be confused with changes in risk. I’m not sure it says what you think it says. Relative risks are a tool that can be used or misused, but they are still useful.

                  Especially for people who don’t have a godlike knowledge of the universe like you.

                • KJT

                  Look.
                  When i was a child we had hospitals full of people with diseases and the complications of diseases, which we have since vaccinated for.
                  I remember having those “mild” childhood diseases. And the shingles from chicken pox. People my age are sterile from mumps. I remember children deaf from measles and babies deformed and handicapped from Rubella.
                  My mother remembers children with polio.

                  Any one who wants to return to all that, by not vaccinating. Is advocating for child abuse!

                  Where are all these hospitals full of “vaccine injured” children, if the anti vaccination crowd were correct? .

              • marty mars

                The old 1, 2 and you’re down for the count lol

              • Andre

                … read the matrix as it scrolls by …

                … mmmm … sushi

            • Stunned Mullet 13.2.1.1.3.2

              ‘The levels of complete ignorance from yourself and others on this…is as staggering as it is unsurprising…’

              Oh the irony…

            • Andre 13.2.1.1.3.3

              You’re quite right. Sensing the woo is a gift I have yet to receive.

              You’re also quite right that tetanus isn’t a virus and it isn’t communicable. Never claimed it was either. Hell, the vaccine doesn’t even directly prompt the immune system to hunt out the tetanus organism, it’s more about cleaning up the tetanus toxin. But the important thing is the tetanus vaccine actually works to protect the vast majority those who receive it and keep it up to date. So anyone who suffers from a tetanus infection and wasn’t vaccinated (and wasn’t informed of that if they’re old enough to make their own decision) has a damn good argument they were deliberately harmed by whoever refused the vaccination on their behalf.

              I’m flattered you think I’m on a level with David Gorski. I really am. I encourage anyone curious to actually research Gorski.

              • One Two

                What I actually said , Andre…

                In fact you’re far beneath even that’

                So you’re also having some other issues which will be contributing to an inability to comprehend why Gorsko…who is a medical laughimg stock that publishes vile, ignorant and abuse filled rants, while supposedly practicing as a so called medical professional…

                I also encourage your endorsement of Gorski…so more people will understand where you, and those who share your ignorant uninformed views, yet continue to comment…get their material from…

                I’ll put a 3rd/4th questions to you…see if you can respond…I don’t care if you do or not…your previous comments betray you enough…

                – Gorski has been involved with research for a pharmaceutical company…

                * What is the company name
                * What disease/condition is the drug research for

                Engaging with the likes of you, is pointless time wasting…so I’ll go back to practicing the discipline of only calling out those who make particularly egregious and damaging comments in support of violent and abusive medical interventions…

                As I’ve pointed out…you’re not interested in expanding yourself or increasing your knowledge and understanding on this subject…

                That’s all on you, Andre…every lazy ounce of such traits…

        • SPC 13.2.1.2

          I guess the reason the anti-vaxers have not been dealt to in a court case (like damages) is that the unvaccinated are only a threat to each other.

          • Stunned Mullet 13.2.1.2.1

            “I guess the reason the anti-vaxers have not been dealt to in a court case (like damages) is that the unvaccinated are only a threat to each other.”

            ..and those that are immunosuppressed (being treated for cancer or on immunosuppressants), the very young who have not yet been immunized, those who are unable to be immunized due to allergies and other clinical contraindications.

            • SPC 13.2.1.2.1.1

              One would have thought there would have been a move by US health insurers in such cases, but as they only recently (and needed to be required) covered vaccination cost maybe they thought they have/had been reticent about exposing their own dubious position.

            • Andre 13.2.1.2.1.2

              You got any idea what proportion of the population (excluding the too young) have a genuine good medical reason not to get vaccinated? I’m guessing even a lot of the medical exemptions are for … bonespurs (or something). Especially somewhere like California, where exemptions are nominally only given for medical reasons.

              • Stunned Mullet

                It’s a small (< 1% I would suggest) but significant absolute number when taken across an entire population who are unable to be vaccinated, when you consider the number of patients who have had a full immunisation schedule that are having bone marrow transplants on immunosuppressant/ing medicines or therapy it becomes larger again.

                • Andre

                  So that’s of the order of say 30 000 New Zealanders that are helplessly unable to protect themselves from fuckwit pro-diseasers happily spreading infections around. A population equivalent to Gisborne.

          • McFlock 13.2.1.2.2

            Except some people can’t be vaccinated, and others might have reduced immunity as no vaccine is 100% effective.

            So they’re not just a threat to each other.

            I suspect that it has more to do with a rightful wariness of compulsory healthcare, and the fact that the numbers used to be too small to really effect the level of herd immunity so it wasn’t really an issue. They were freeloading, but all good.

            Whereas now the unvaccinated are keeping some diseases from being eradicated locally. It’s not just down to the nutbars (there are lots of issues around primary healthcare delivery), but they don’t help.

    • Rosemary McDonald 13.3

      Anne.

      https://academic.oup.com/aje/article/165/6/704/63700

      “In October 1988, the United Kingdom introduced measles-mumps-rubella (MMR) vaccines for routine immunization of children in their second year of life. At the time these MMR vaccines were introduced, Canadian investigators had reported that the Urabe mumps strain contained in two of the three available vaccines was temporally associated with aseptic meningitis in approximately 1 in 100,000 vaccinees (1). However, it was unclear at the time whether the association was causal and, if so, what the true attributable risk was and whether the adverse effect was exclusively related to vaccines containing the Urabe strain.”

      Now it was this version of the MMR vaccine that was used here in Godzone…and accounts of serious illness associated with the vaccine was the reason many (including myself) had grave reservations about having our kids jabbed with MMR. As I said previously…the option of having a single measles jab was not available. I don’t recall it being the mumps component that was the acknowledged problem with this particular brand of MMR…but I do know that I certainly had no problem with the measles part. Funny…I don’t recall horror from the medicos at some people refusing the (suspected) faulty vaccine.

      “Subsequent epidemiologic studies using laboratory- and hospital-identified cases of aseptic meningitis linked to MMR vaccination records established that the true risk of MMR-associated aseptic meningitis was substantially higher than previously thought (∼1 in 10,000–15,000 doses) and was exclusively related to the Urabe mumps strain in the vaccine (4–6). Furthermore, there was an increased risk of hospital admission for febrile convulsion 15–35 days after receipt of a Urabe-containing MMR vaccine (an attributable risk of approximately 1 in 1,500 doses), indicating that the real risk of acute neurologic consequences from the Urabe mumps component of MMR was underestimated when using case ascertainment methods that were reliant on laboratory investigations (5)”

      So….if you want to take the time to read at least some of this academic paper written by experts that does actually more than hint at how easily data can be faulty if it is collected wrongly…GIGO….

      I am busy renovating…and don’t really have time to continue this right now…but at the risk of sounding pathetic…please, please read just one piece of research that validates the vaccine hesitancy some of us have. Keep saying our concerns are groundless, and calling us ‘anti-vaxxers’ (which most of us are not btw) with the same level of contempt and disgust aimed at the likes of Cardinal Pell, and we will never, ever be able to have a rational, respectful conversation about this vital issue.

      • Rosemary McDonald 13.3.1

        As an addendum to my previous post (“Risks of Convulsion and Aseptic Meningitis following Measles-Mumps-Rubella Vaccination in the United Kingdom’) …if anyone actually gives a shit about facts rather than hyperbolic ranting….

        https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/1544592/Vaccine-officials-knew-about-MMR-risks.html

        Yeah, yeah, its an article from 12years ago…but points to the UK government deliberately putting children’s lives at risk by not only allowing the roll out of the Urabe MMR vaccine after reports of serious harm in other countries…but continuing its use in the UK, despite attributable deaths until…

        “The minutes of another meeting of the Joint Committee on Vaccination and Immunisation, in May 1990, show that there was “especial concern” about “reports from Japan of a high level of meningoencephalitis associated with the administration of MMR”.

        The Government waited another two years before it decided to stop using Urabe MMR in 1992, after the manufacturers told officials that they would stop making it.

        It was replaced with MMR II, which has a different mumps component. ”

        Now I’m betting that pretty much no one here on TS remembers this….the shit storm… not only because the vaccine was very harmful (1:1500 admitted to hospital with febrile convulsions) and that the harm was significantly down played, but instead of pulling the fucking batch as soon as there was a hint that there were issues the UK government continued using it until the manufacturer told officials they would stop making it.

        Now if y’all angry ranty ‘we hate the anti vaxxers’ lefties are not now outraged at this example from near history when big business was enabled by a democratically elected government to continue to harm and kill children then you are all a bunch of ignorant windbags.

        If y’all can tone down the condemnation of those who make up that very small percentage of kiwi parents who choose not vaccinate their children because of well founded mistrust of the official reassurances that “all vaccines are perfectly safe”… and maybe admit that some have longer memories or are more widely read?

    • Puckish Rogue 13.4

      Hes a good man

  13. Anne 14

    Just in.

    James Shaw attacked this morning on his way to parliament. Taken to hospital.

    https://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/news/article.cfm?c_id=1&objectid=12212577

    Edit: new details suggest injuries not too serious. Hope so.

  14. patricia bremner 15

    James Shaw is in Hospital after an unprovoked attack. Be Well James.

  15. Sam 16

    Oh far out. Take it in your stride Shaw.

    • Bewildered 16.1

      I am with Sam here imagine the kudos for the flaky greens image if story was, look at the other guy James Shaw kicked his ass While bad the optics are up there with give me my flag back Norman

      • Robert Guyton 16.1.1

        Who, Bewildered, might that kudos come from?
        Are there “greenies” who would celebrate an assault by one of their leading figures?
        I’m wondering if you are a little … bewildered.

        • Bewildered 16.1.1.1

          Not an assault Robert, dealing to his assailent in self defence Not happy with Shaw been attacked just raising the point politics is optics, good or bad ie the dildo and turd throwing could also be classed as assault as well but we all chuckled heartily on the left re the optics of these assaults

          • greywarshark 16.1.1.1.1

            Optics – are you a high-flyer who uses the in -language, or are you a a low-life adopting it to sound as if you’re part of the cognoscenti/

          • Robert Guyton 16.1.1.1.2

            “we all chuckled heartily on the left”
            “We”, Bewildered? You’re a Lefty? You chuckled?
            Why?

      • left_forward 16.1.2

        …a bewildering array of words.

    • Robert Guyton 16.2

      How has James not taken it in his “stride”?
      I can’t make sense of your comment at all, Sam.

      • Sam 16.2.1

        Depends which virtue is relevant to the signal being sent. For people who want power, petty squabbles don’t phase them one bit.

        • Robert Guyton 16.2.1.1

          What signal has James sent, Sam?

          • Sam 16.2.1.1.1

            Well, put it this way. If this government fails to put a climate deal together an entire generation of New Zealand’s is fucked.

            • McFlock 16.2.1.1.1.1

              I don’t get the connection between that and your reference to, dare I say, virtue signalling after being thumped in the face.

              • Robert Guyton

                Nor I. Sam’s beyond obscure.

              • Sam

                Climate Change Ministers have far more expensive remedies at there disposal than street justice.

                • McFlock

                  consider me a thicko, but are you suggesting Shaw could decide to accelerate global warming just to get the guy’s bach washed away by sealevel rise?

                  • Sam

                    Well if you’re going to dive straight in then you better be able to swim. Perhaps 47 year olds could practice writing computer languages and learn how to navigate an app menu properly.

                    • McFlock

                      Why do I feel like a greyhound that will never catch up to that damned rabbit as it runs from post to post…

                    • Sam

                      An old lady with a wise spirit said once that the master will appear when the student is ready.

                    • McFlock

                      These days pedagogical advice has moved more towards being clear from the start and only moving forward when everyone has figured out what drugs the teacher is on.

                    • Sam

                      It’s not my place to tell people how to think. Micromanaging is a mugs game.

                    • McFlock

                      You could try being a touch more clear about what you think, though. At the moment it just looks like loads of random comments with no coherent meaning whatsoever.

                    • Sam

                      That’s cool. I guarantee you won’t come across another like me. Simply accepting / adopting academic mantra and doctrine is with out a doubt the most worthless commodity available on the open market today.

                    • The Al1en

                      Making pointed statements, not having the courage, will or smarts to defend it, and then obfuscating for an eternity until people get bored and eventually forget about it.

                      Not to burst your self worth bubble, or anything, but there’s plenty around like that, and that’s just on here 😆

                    • Sam

                      Quote me…

                    • The Al1en

                      No need to quote. This current thread is plenty proof enough of your personal obfuscation, unless you want to change tack, grow a pair of fortitudes, and answer the questions you’ve been avoiding thus far.

                    • adam

                      The Al1en irony much…

                  • greywarshark

                    Like your work McFlock.

  16. greywarshark 17

    You seem to be in the nature of a flamer here Sam. Watch out or you might get scorched by a burnover.

    This is a really informative item from The Atlantic. It is one media spot worth subscribing to.
    https://www.theatlantic.com/technology/archive/2014/05/fire-shelters/371421/

    • WeTheBleeple 17.1

      Great article.

      Are you enjoying Four Fires?

      • greywarshark 17.1.1

        I went mad and bought two copies. I will give one away to someone who would enjoy it when I come across them. In the meantime I am dipping my toes in. It’s quite a read, over 1000pp, I like them shorter. But I am finding it interesting.
        The start about boyhood, reminds me of the real bio of Clive James, he’s a character. I’ll continue with it, finish it by Christmas. I still have brainworm/s going that keep me thinking and that takes time.

  17. Ad 19

    Still a good chance for a Biden-Beto ticket now that Beto is in the running.

    Skinny white guys Unite!

  18. marty mars 20

    Smelly – I could hardly believe this story when it came out. PR for water bottling ffs

    “Christchurch mayor Lianne Dalziel has back-tracked over her failure to disclose a family connection to water bottler Cloud Ocean Water, admitting there was a conflict of interest she “should have managed”.”

    https://i.stuff.co.nz/national/111275591/christchurch-mayor-lianne-dalziel-admits-conflict-over-husbands-water-bottling-links

    • Puckish Rogue 20.1

      ‘Dalziel told Stuff this week that she learned “earlier this year” that Davidson Legal was acting for Cloud Ocean, and that she “can’t recall” how she found out.’

      Not a good look

    • greywarshark 20.2

      Husband’s water bottling links – so that is why they were recently pictured holding hands. What is it with these ‘suits’ that they lack antennae as to what’s a good venture to land on and which not?

    • gsays 20.3

      Wasn’t Dalziel the one, when as an MP responded, ‘it all depends on what you mean by no’, when caught out?

      I may be getting my wires crossed but it is what I think when I see her face.

      • greywarshark 20.3.1

        That sounds like unaccustomed honesty gsays. We should give her a citation.

  19. R.P Mcmurphy 21

    FB doing maintenance today so no running commentary on Question Time from the good folk at the “John Key Has Let down New Zealand” site. wah wah wah. See you there next week.

  20. R.P Mcmurphy 22

    QT getting shorter and shorter. The nationals party seem to be incapable of asking a cogent question instead relying on tedious repitition and inanities bordering on non sequiturs. Or alternatively flat out lies and other crosy textorisms.

  21. greywarshark 23

    We always knew but now it’s official. Pres Trump says that the safety of American (USA) people is of “paramount concern”. That is why Boeing 737 Max8 planes such as the Ethiopian crashed airliner and another last October, have been grounded as soon as they finish their last flight.
    However previously many countries refused them landing rights and they have been just working within USA.
    https://www.nzherald.co.nz//world/news/article.cfm?c_id=2&objectid=12212465&ref=clavis

    Recent crashes:
    The crash site: An investigation is underway after a brand-new Max 8 aircraft crashed in Ethiopia, killing all 157 people on board. Two crashes in less than six months: A new Lion Air Boeing 737 Max 8 flight went down over the Java Sea last October, killing 189 people.
    https://edition.cnn.com/world/live-news/boeing-737-max-8-ethiopia-airlines-crash/index.html

    From a recently seen item:
    Many commentators have written in asking why don’t we compare a new plane (A220-300) with Boeing 737 Max 8. After all, the Boeing 737 Max 8 has the advantage of new technology, new engineering and has an equal astonishing large amount of orders (Over 4,000 for the 737 Max varieties).

    However, the above principles still very much apply. The newer 737 Max 8 can hold up to 210 passengers, flies a little further in range than the A220 (In the order of a few hundred kilometers) but requires 7,000 more liters of fuel to do so. It’s a bigger plane and would be more appropriate to rival the A320 rather than the A220. The A22 0 is cheaper to run… but the newer Boeing 737 max 8 may have enough extra passengers on board to justify the extra fuel.

    What do you think? Do you like the 737 or the A220? Let us know in the comments.
    https://simpleflying.com/airbus-a220-vs-boeing-737/

  22. Eco Maori 24

    Kia ora R&R I Champion the #METOO agendas I say Wahine need to be shown the respect they deserve and not treated as baby producing sexual OBJECT. They need to payed = equaly and that will lead to a better balance society’s.
    Its all about respect you treat Wahine like you would your kuia grandmother with respect.
    Yes it was about time the law society straight up there act but I say they have not dune enough to correct the harresment that young Wahine face in the law profession and that behaviour is limiting the law society from gaining a equal representation of Wahine in that sector. Ka kite ano

  23. Eco Maori 25

    Some Eco Maori Music for the minute.

    What happend in Christchurch is so discusting Eco Maori is lost for words on the subject so I will not be commenting on it

  24. Eco Maori 26

    It is quite easy for me to see the pathetic behaviour of pollies the ightnecks of the politacial world have no boundries in what they will do to hold on to POWER.
    As in there realitys the sun revolves around there EGO,s
    What animals can teach us about politics
    Decades of studying primates has convinced me that animal politics are not so different from our own – and even in the wild, leadership is about much more than being a bully. By Frans de Waal
    Merciless tyrants do sometimes rise to the top in a chimpanzee community, but the more typical alphas that I have known were quite the opposite. Males in this position are not necessarily the biggest, strongest, meanest ones around, since they often reach the top with the assistance of others. In fact, the smallest male may become alpha if he has the right supporters. Most alpha males protect the underdog, keep the peace and reassure those who are distressed. As soon as a fight erupts among members of a group, everyone turns to him to see how he is going to handle it. He is the final arbiter, intent on restoring harmony. He will stand impressively between screaming parties, with his arms raised, until things calm down.
    This is where Trump deviated dramatically from a true alpha male. He struggled with empathy. Instead of uniting and stabilising the nation or expressing sympathy for suppressed or suffering parties, he kindled the flames of discord – from making fun of a disabled journalist to his implicit support for white supremacists. For the primatologist, the comparisons of Trump’s behaviour with that of alpha primates are therefore limited, applying more to his climb to the top than to the execution of leadership.
    Emotions structure our societies to a degree we rarely acknowledge. Why would politicians seek higher office if not for the hunger for power that marks all primates? Why would you worry about your family if not for the emotional ties that bind parents and offspring? All our most cherished institutions and accomplishments are tightly interwoven with human emotions and would not exist without them. This realisation makes me look at animal emotions as capable of shedding light on our very existence, our goals and dreams, and our highly structured societies.
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    Since I don’t consider our own species to be much different from other mammals emotionally, and in fact would be hard-pressed to pinpoint uniquely human emotions, it strikes me that we had better pay careful attention to the emotional background we share with our fellow inhabitants of this planet.

    When Aristotle labelled our species a zoon politikon, or “political animal”, he linked this idea to our mental capacities. That we are social animals is not so special, he said (referring to bees and cranes), but our community life is different thanks to human rationality and our ability to tell right from wrong. While he was partly right, he may have overlooked the intensely emotional side of human politics. Rationality is often hard to find, and facts matter far less than we think. Politics is all about fears and hopes, the character of leaders, and the feelings they evoke. Fearmongering is a great way to distract from the issues at hand.
    Most astonishing are the euphemisms with which we surround the twin driving forces behind human politics: leaders’ lust for power and followers’ hankering for leadership. Like most primates, we are a hierarchical species, so why do we try to hide it from ourselves? The evidence is all around us, such as the early emergence of pecking orders in children (the opening day at a daycare centre may look like a battlefield), our obsession with income and status, the fancy titles we bestow on one another in small organisations and the infantile devastation of grown men who tumble from the top.
    The depth of the human desire for power is never more obvious than in individuals’ reactions to its loss. Fully grown men may relapse into displays of uncontrolled rage more often associated with juveniles whose expectations are unmet. When a young primate or child first notices that its every wish will not be granted, a noisy tantrum ensues: this is not how life is supposed to be. Air is expelled with full force through the larynx to wake up the entire neighbourhood to this grave injustice. The juvenile rolls around screaming, hitting its own head, unable to stand up, sometimes vomiting. Tantrums are common around weaning age, which for apes is around four and for humans around two.

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    A male lowland gorilla. Photograph: Rex/Shutterstock
    The reaction of political leaders to the loss of power is very similar. When Richard Nixon realised he would have to resign the next day, he got down on his knees, sobbed, struck the carpet with his fists and cried: “What have I done? What has happened?”, as Bob Woodward and Carl Bernstein describe in their 1976 book The Final Days. Henry Kissinger, Nixon’s secretary of state, comforted the dethroned leader as he would a child, literally holding him in his arms and reciting his accomplishments over and over until he calmed down.
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    For men, as Kissinger once said, power is the ultimate aphrodisiac. They jealously guard it, and if anyone challenges them, they lose all inhibitions. The same occurs in chimps. The first time I saw an established leader lose face, the noise and passion of his reaction astonished me.
    Normally a dignified character, this alpha male became unrecognisable when confronted by a challenger who slapped his back during a passing charge and slung huge rocks in his direction. The challenger barely stepped out of the way when the alpha countercharged. What to do now?
    In the midst of such a confrontation, the alpha would drop out of a tree like a rotten apple, writhe on the ground, scream pitifully and wait to be comforted by the rest of the group. He acted much like a juvenile ape being pushed away from his mother’s breast. And like a juvenile who during a noisy tantrum keeps an eye on his mother for signs of softening, the alpha took note of who approached him. When the group around him was big enough, he instantly regained courage. With his supporters in tow, he rekindled the confrontation with his rival.
    Once he lost his top spot, after every brawl this alpha male would sit staring into the distance, unaccustomed to losing. He’d have an empty expression on his face, oblivious to the social activity around him. He refused food for weeks. He became a mere ghost of the impressive leader he had been. For this beaten and dejected alpha male, it was as if the lights had gone out.
    Ka kite ano Links below P.S This behaviour in not limited to people countrys can be on that list as well

    https://www.theguardian.com/science/2019/mar/12/what-animals-can-teach-us-about-politics

  25. Eco Maori 27

    Kia ora R&R on Maori TV.
    Maori have to be wise About how we get OUR Mana and Power to control our future back.
    Its about taking all the tangata on a journey with us to qet equality use the tools that western society has politics state and local to gain our authority over our futures. We also have to stop letting the western society using the old IWI Raurau isuses to divide He Tangata whenua they have been using that move for hundreds of years quite successfully .
    Its cool that we can now talk about the unfair way the systems treat tangata whenua and the lower classes in NZ.
    3 years ago everyone was in denying mode on all those subjects jails health school jobs hands thrown in the AIR we don’t know what’s wrong keep lieing and it becomes the truth .
    Sorry the reason Tangata Whenua are in such degraded standing on OUR Ladders of life in NZ is deliberate suppression from the state how else can one explain that in 200 years we go from owning all the whenua to begging in the streets and living under the bridge.
    Ka kite ano

  26. Eco Maori 28

    Everyone who is intelligent and figured out that we have one planet Mother Earth and we are making a big mess of our world Keep up the good fight .
    We can not let them win as our grandchildren will suffer from the action,s of neanderthals
    Climate strikes held around the world – as it happened
    From Australia to America, children put down their books on Friday to march for change in the first global climate strike.
    The event was embraced in the developing nations of India and Uganda and in the Philippines and Nepal – countries acutely impacted by climate change – as tens of thousands of schoolchildren and students in more than 100 countries went on “strike”, demanding the political elite urgently address what they say is a climate emergency.
    In Sydney, where about 30,000 children and young people marched from the Town Hall Square to Hyde Park, university student Xander De Vries, 20, said: “It’s our time to rise up. We don’t have a lot of time left; it’s us who have to make a change so I thought it would be important to be here and show support to our generation.”
    Coordinated via social media by volunteers in 125 countries and regions, the action spread across more than 2,000 events under the banner of Fridays As dusk fell in the antipodes, the baton was passed to Asia, where small groups of Indian students went on strike for the first time.
    In Delhi, more than 200 children walked out of classes to protest against inaction on tackling climate change, and similar protests took place on a smaller scale in 30 towns and cities. Vidit Baya, 17, who is in his last year at MDS public school in Udaipur, said: “In India, no one talks about climate change. You don’t see it on the news or in the papers or hear about it from government.
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    “This was our first strike as a nation and there were young people taking strike action in many cities. It is a fledgling movement but we are very happy with our action today. We are trying to get people to be more aware of climate change and the need to tackle it.”
    Across Africa, there were strikes in several countries. In Uganda, Kampala international student Hilda Nakabuye addressed striking students in the capital.
    In Sweden, youngsters gathered in Stockholm’s central square to hear 16-year-old Greta Thunberg, the girl whose single-minded determination has inspired millions of people around the world and earned a nomination this week for the Nobel peace prize.
    When she appeared, the crowd chanted her name and she earned cheers and applause by telling them: “We have been born into this world and we have to live with this crisis, and our children and our grandchildren. We are facing the greatest existential crisis humanity has ever faced. And yet it has been ignored. You who have ignored it know who you are.”
    Political leaders in some countries criticised the strikes. In Australia, the education minister, Dan Tehan, said: “Students leaving school during school hours to protest is not something that we should encourage.” The UK’s education secretary, Damian Hinds, claimed the disruption increased teachers’ workloads and wasted lesson time.
    But young people brushed off the criticism.
    Jean Hinchcliffe, 14, striking in Sydney, said on the Today programme: “I have been really frustrated and really angry about the fact I don’t have a voice in politics and I don’t have a voice in the climate conversation when my politicians are pretty much refusing to do anything … So I decided to strike and … suddenly us kids are being listened to and that’s why we continue to strike and feel it’s so important.”
    In the UK, where an estimated 10,000 young people gathered in London and thousands more took to the streets in Edinburgh and Glasgow, as well as other towns and cities, the environment secretary, Michael Gove, broke ranks with Hinds and praised the action in a video message with other
    Ka kite ano links below.

    https://www.theguardian.com/environment/2019/mar/15/its-our-time-to-rise-up-youth-climate-strikes-held-in-100-countries

  27. Eco Maori 29

    Some Eco Maori Music for the minute.

  28. Eco Maori 30

    Kia ora The AM Show.
    The police have enough servalince powers they got a microscope up my ass and I have not committed a crime. They are just focused on the wrong people.
    We should not let hate racism be tolerated in New Zealand.
    A automatic gun /machine gun only use is to kill humans they should be banned in New Zealand.
    My first dairy farm job I got hired by a 2IC who was a white power supporters he didn’t figure out I was Maori a few days later he figured it out I brought my son back to the farm he soon toned down his attitude and denied he was one I end up saving his life he dropped in the pit had a ceser I did all the correct first aid on him I still treated him with respect.
    Ka kite ano

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    6 days ago
  • Cultural Ministers Meeting
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    7 days ago
  • 608 claims resolved by GCCRS in first year
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    1 week ago
  • NZ economy in good shape
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  • NZTA to refocus on safety following review
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  • Joint Cooperation Statement on Climate Change between the Netherlands and New Zealand
    The Netherlands and New Zealand have a long-standing and close relationship based on many shared interests and values. We value the rule of law, our democracies, and multilateralism.  And we value our environment – at home and globally. Right now there are major global challenges in all of these areas – ...
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  • Government putting right Holidays Act underpayment in Health
    The Government is putting right a decade’s worth of underpayment to nurses, doctors and other health workers, says Health Minister Dr David Clark.  Initial sampling of District Health Boards payroll records has found that around $550-$650 million is owed to DHB staff to comply with the Holidays Act. It’s expected ...
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  • Government accounts show strong economy
    A strong surplus and low debt show the economy is performing well, and means the Government is in a good position to meet the challenges of global economic uncertainty. “The surplus and low levels of debt show the economy is in good shape. This allows the Government to spend more ...
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  • Ministers approve application to expand Waihi mine
    New applications from mining company OceanaGold to purchase land in Waihi for new tailings ponds associated with its gold mines have been approved. Minister of Finance Grant Robertson and Associate Minister of Finance David Parker considered the applications under the Overseas Investment Act. Earlier this year, applications from OceanaGold to ...
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  • Tuia 250 Voyage flotilla launches with tribute to tangata whenua
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  • Visit to advance trade agenda with Europe and the Commonwealth
    Minister for Trade and Export Growth David Parker leaves tomorrow for Dubai, London and Berlin for a series of meetings to advance New Zealand’s trade interests.  In Dubai he will visit New Zealand’s Pavilion at Expo 2020 where construction is underway.  There he will meet Minister of State for International Cooperation, Her ...
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  • More cancer drugs confirmed – even more on horizon
    Confirmation that PHARMAC will fund two new cancer drugs is further evidence of the good progress the Government is making to improve the treatment of New Zealand’s leading cause of death, Health Minister David Clark says. From 1 December PHARMAC will fund alectinib (Alecensa) for ALK positive advanced non-small cell ...
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    1 week ago