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Open mike 14/08/2021

Written By: - Date published: 6:00 am, August 14th, 2021 - 67 comments
Categories: open mike - Tags:

Open mike is your post.

For announcements, general discussion, whatever you choose.

The usual rules of good behaviour apply (see the Policy).

Step up to the mike …

67 comments on “Open mike 14/08/2021 ”

  1. Jenny how to get there 1

    Looking forward to getting back into the air when the borders open?

    You might be in for a rough ride.

    Have you considered tele-commuting?


  2. Forget now 2

    A single plastic bag took out nearly half the operating theatres? Maybe a rubbish sack? You don't see many plastic bags around these days – though I guess synthetic thread fabric is common enough. I suspect the false economy of delaying maintenance may have played its part in creating this expensive mess. Not the first time it has rained inside the old Dunedin hospital anyway.

    Dunedin Hospital was forced to postpone 10 surgical procedures yesterday after heavy rain caused flooding in several operating theatres and surrounding areas late on Thursday night…

    ‘‘Around 10pm, staff were alerted to flooding in the theatre complex from water coming through the ceiling.

    ‘‘This affected four out of nine operating theatres.’’

    Dr Cochrane said the leak was believed to have been caused by a plastic bag, which had blown on to the hospital roof and covered a drainage duct.


    • mac1 2.1

      And gutter guard mesh costs $5-6 for 8 metres!

      "For the want of a nail…."

      Who remembers the classic Footrot Flats cartoon with the dog asking guess where Wal is during the first rain of the season or words to that effect? Behind him is a drenched Wal on a ladder cleaning an overflowing gutter of leaves.

      • Forget now 2.1.1

        Yep, the old; "she'll be right" kiwi attitude, doesn't mix too well with sterile operating theaters.

        The SDHB is both underfunded and underfunding. Which ends up costing more; money, in the long term, and; human suffering, in the short.

  3. Adrian Thornton 3

    John Pilger again proving why he will be remembered as one of the foremost journalist of our life time…unbelievably MSM media journalists have become so captured in this prevailing moment of 'manufacturing consent' in media that they intentionally ignore this symbolic public torture..fucking cowards..guess Pilger was right on the mark when he saw right through Kim Hill's bullshit liberal facade all those years ago and recognized her as nothing more than the defender of the status quo she is…..

    JOHN PILGER: A Day in the Death of British Justice

    "There is more: WikiLeaks disclosed the U.S. campaign to suppress wages in sweatshop countries like Haiti, India’s campaign of torture in Kashmir, the British government’s secret agreement to shield “U.S. interests” in its official Iraq inquiry and the British Foreign Office’s plan to create a fake “marine protection zone” in the Indian Ocean to cheat the Chagos islanders out of their right of return.

    In other words, WikiLeaks has given us real news about those who govern us and take us to war, not the preordained, repetitive spin that fills newspapers and television screens. This is real journalism; and for the crime of real journalism, Assange has spent most of the past decade in one form of incarceration or another, including Belmarsh prison, a horrific place."


    John Pilger dismantling Kim Hill…..

    • Incognito 3.1

      That interview that you and some others here love mentioning so much was in 2003.

      Some people are truly stuck in the past and let the past define them in ways that lock in the past and block progressive change.

      • Brigid 3.1.1

        But did you read the consortium article? Because that's what happening now.

        So perhaps you could.

        • Incognito

          And if I could not, I’m a “defender of the status quo”, or an “imperialist”, or something else altogether? Please let me know what label I should don so that I can make up my mind before I click on the link and lose a few minutes of my life that I will never get back.

          Anyway, back to work now.

          • Andre

            As a case study in histrionic propaganda, it's of mild interest. If you're into that kinda thing.

            As for providing any new facts or insight, not so much. Finding those few little tidbits that might be relevant is kind of a 'where's Waldo' exercise. Which ends up kinda pointless given the certainty that Pilger will be presenting a wildly distorted one-eyed view of the situation.

          • Brigid

            "And if I could not, I’m a “defender of the status quo” …."

            Good grief.

            The point of reading the article is to inform you. If you choose not to, I couldn't care less.

            • Incognito

              Look, Brigid, in case you didn’t get my comment(s) in this thread, I was commenting on the ‘style’, not the ‘substance’. In my view, Adrian’s comment was not about engaging in a discussion. His prejudice was dripping off his comment, as usual, with the undertones of an aggressive and hostile attitude towards a few other commenters here. We’ve all seen it here before, which is why Adrian and I butt heads regularly and why I put (his pet) words in the Auto-Moderation filter that trigger shit fights.

              His comment @ 3 was not inviting in the slightest; it was polarising, and I think he either can’t help himself because he’s stuck in a pattern or it is deliberate or a bit of both.

              Perhaps I should not have used my reply to you as a way to communicate to and about Adrian and I apologise for that because you seem genuinely interested in conversation on the ‘substance’ of his comment. My bad.

              HTH and have a nice day.

      • Morrissey 3.1.2

        Sadly, Kim Hill doesn't seem to have learned a lot from that encounter with John Pilger. There are many more recent examples of her engaging in and/or providing an uncritical forum for vicious and cynical attacks on progressive activists and political dissidents. In 2013 she let Alex Gibney pour rhetorical filth on Julian Assange [1] and in 2019 she allowed Simon Schama to unleash an equally spurious attack on Jeremy Corbyn. [2]

        To be fair, she does occasionally display some intellectual courage and moral awareness, such as when she confronted the neoconservative war enthusiast William Shawcross in 2004. [3] She also drove one Jeffrey Archer into a paroxysm of fury on air one memorable afternoon in 1994.

        [1] https://thestandard.org.nz/open-mike-13072013/#comment-662336

        [2] https://thestandard.org.nz/open-mike-06-07-2019/#comment-1634687

        [3] https://thestandard.org.nz/open-mike-01082011/#comment-359152

        • Incognito

          Morrissey, my contraire confrere! Oh, how I missed you, but I had an inkling you’d appear here today; the trigger words must have set off the red alarm.

          I think dogmatic lefties and intellectual snobs alike, they have better things to do than losing their rag over an ancient interview between a woman and a man about another man and a woman (or was it another man?). For example, where was your outrage about moving Churchill’s portrait?

          Life is too short to hold on to the past and your grudges unless you’re Chris Trotter, of course, but he’s a ‘political historian’.

          Work calls, again.

      • Andre 3.1.3

        You misunderstand.

        That interview was such a glorious victory in the struggle to smash the establishment that its memory shall be revered forever as a shining inspiration to all true lefties. Viva la revolucion!

        Or something.

        • Incognito

          Ah, I see. Unfortunately, I’m prone to misunderstanding because I’m obviously not a ‘true lefty’, as I don’t go into full beast-mode at the slightest discursion from ‘the manifest’.

      • Adrian Thornton 3.1.4

        @ Incognito. So when has Kim Hill had on anyone defending or even seriously discussing the Assange case in the past couple of years?, infact as far as I can see RNZ has had only two guests over the past three years to talk about Assange specifically.. Kim Hill and RNZ undermine serious "progressive change" in exactly the same way as the Guardian does….the only change that gets regular coverage on RNZ are the changes in the stock market, that they report on half a dozen times a day!

        • Incognito

          Hmmm, a slightly better comment than the one that was visible in the front-end for 6’52’’ before you trashed it angry

          I’m not losing any sleep over the things that seem to bother others no end. We all pick our favourite battles, don’t we? That said, I do see an analogy, at least one, between moving a portrait of Churchill and the reporting by RNZ and Kim Hill on Assange.

          • Adrian Thornton

            What the fuck is up with you commenting on the contents of my comment before the ten minutes ‘editing’ time is up?

            "I do see an analogy, at least one, between moving a portrait of Churchill and the reporting by RNZ and Kim Hill on Assange"…I don't.

            Defending Assange takes moral and ethical courage of the type Kim Hill and RNZ have not displayed for so long I sometimes wonder if it was ever present?

            Getting on the Churchill train does not…just some low hanging fruit of the type that suits RNZ liberal sensibilities perfectly.

            • Incognito

              Twice in two days you put up a comment that was visible to others before you edited/trashed it. I can give you a personal message that I think your edit was an improvement and you know why. Other than that, I did not comment on the actual contents of your trashed comment. So, please spare me your false accusations and stop playing the poor victim. BTW, somebody else also commented on your second edited/changed comment, which you also improved by your edit. Perhaps you’re as smart as I think you are.

              You don’t see an analogy, yet you do!?

        • Molly

          I'm with you. There is a limit to how far supposedly good journalists will stray from acceptable norms. Hill's limit was exposed in the Pilger interview, and is repeated in regards to Assange.

          It's worthwhile to acknowledge that.

    • That misses out the bits where he really ripped into Kim Hill. Pilger is a hero but so is Hill….on this very rare occasion she didn't handle it very well.

  4. joe90 4

    Stewing in hate and wallowing in his own blackpilled misery with a social life revolving around howling into social media. The only thing missing is the manifesto.


  5. Adrian 5

    The world is full of arseholes and most of them can be found in groups lecturing others on what to do. Scott Guthrie, bankrupted many times, self appointed serial justice campaigner, actually anywhere he can get his hands on dopey buggers donations and funnel them towards himself just excelled at stitching up Christine Rankin,was, and I love this, a stalwart of the Sensible Sentencing Trust. Ha fucking ha!
    Its all in the Press this morning, sorry can’t do links because of IT stupidity.

  6. francesca 6

    Another angle to vaccine hesitancy?

    The writer makes the case that sexism plays a role in the evaluation and trials of medications in general.

    The US Food and Drug Administration (FDA), however, does not warn women who get the shots that they may experience a disrupted menstrual cycle.

    Why is this? In part because even though menstruation is sometimes called the sixth vital sign and directly implicates fertility, and the fact that women on average suffer higher rates of adverse reaction to vaccines of all sorts and medication in general, the effects of Covid vaccines on women’s health specifically, including the menstrual cycle, were not studied as part of the Emergency Use Authorization process.

    Impacts on menstrual cycles are, it turns out, very rarely studied in clinical vaccine trials. Stated another way, the quality of COVID-19 vaccine safety data is better for men than it is for women, yet across the country, vaccine mandates make no sex-distinction and in practicality, actually fall more heavily on majority-women industries. In this way, it could be argued, women are not being treated equally under U.S. law.


    • Rosemary McDonald 6.1

      Thanks francesca, an excellent long form piece that collates six months of commentary on this particular side effect of the covid jabs.

      I have been following how MSM has been reporting on this issue for months and the responses from the experts are so similar you'd be forgiven for thinking they were following a common script.

      A widely quoted male gynecologist told the BBC that there was “no evidence to suggest that COVID-19 vaccines will affect fertility.” Alan Copperman, MD, of the Mt. Sinai Department of Obstetrics, Gynecology, and Reproductive Science, claims “the evidence shows that the vaccines will not affect anyone’s fertility.” Just yesterday, from the Boston Globe, we are told there is “conclusive evidence that the vaccine has no negative impacts on reproduction.”

      One wonders who they are trying to convince.

      But, here’s what is confusing. The menstrual cycle – and please, someone do correct me if I’m wrong – is a fertility cycle, consisting of a follicular phase, the ovulation phase, the luteal phase, and then the passing of the menses itself. If a woman accepts a Covid-19 vaccine and begins to suddenly and hemorrhagically bleed, for weeks or months or end, this by no means necessarily suggests she is permanently sterilized, but nevertheless indicates her cycle has been thrown off track, which is a fertility-related side effect – one which is particularly salient to a woman trying to conceive.

      And yes, basic biology…you'd think it would trump all the dismissive pontifications of the experts clearly spouting rubbish.

      But no, Ms Parenti will most likely find herself on some FactcheckersRus shit list for daring to do such a deep dive into an issue that could affect near fifty percent of vaccine recipients.

      And they wonder why vaccine hesitancy is an actual thing.

      (Surprise fact from the article….about one third of all American women will undergo fertility treatment at some point.)

      • RedLogix 6.1.1

        There are two ways to think about this pandemic – from the science perspective that in principle should embrace scrutiny, challenge and alternative hypothesis, OR from the public health perspective that is all about getting us to do the same thing.

        One is about seeking the truth even when the path takes us through confusion and misinformation – the other is about the noble lie told in the interests holding our society together in a common purpose. These two motives could not be more different yet they're constantly muddled, conflated and are often in conflict with each other.

        In an ideal world each would find a way to complement each other, each playing a role in evolving more intelligent and effective responses to this pandemic – yet here we are still taking sides when te virus doesn't care.

        • Drowsy M. Kram

          There are two ways to think about this pandemic – from the science perspective that in principle should embrace scrutiny, challenge and alternative hypothesis, OR from the public health perspective that is all about getting us to do the same thing.

          Not sure about the principle of embracing alternative hypotheses. My "science perspective" is that scientific hypotheses should be testable, so I could embrace the testing of alternative hypotheses (educated guesses) in as far as that is possible.


          • In science, a hypothesis is an educated guess that can be tested with observations and falsified if it really is false.
          • You cannot prove conclusively that most hypotheses are true because it’s generally impossible to examine all possible cases for exceptions that would disprove them.

          Existing data, however, strongly support the hypothesis that the benefits of the better Covid-19 vaccines to human life and limb greatly outweigh the risks.

          New data shows benefits outweigh risks on COVID-19 vaccine, CDC says

          Overall, the CDC said the report showed the estimated benefits outweigh the risks associated with vaccines.

          For example, per million doses of Janssen vaccine administered to males aged 50-64, 1,800 hospitalizations, 480 ICU admissions, and 140 deaths from COVID could be prevented compared with 14-17 cases of GBS and 1-2 TTS cases,” the CDC said.

          Still, the CDC said the “balance of benefits and risks varied by age and sex because adverse events were primarily identified in specific subgroups of sex and age.

          Additionally, the CDC said it was important to tell everyone getting the COVID-19 vaccine about the benefits and risks, particularly in the age groups who might deal with GBS, thrombocytopenia, or myocarditis.

          Based on ACIP’s conclusion regarding the benefit-risk assessment on July 22, 2021, vaccination with any of the available COVID-19 vaccines licensed under the FDA EUAs continues to be recommended for all persons aged ≥18 years,” the CDC said. “With the Delta variant, this is more urgent than ever. In addition, the Pfizer-BioNTech COVID-19 vaccine continues to be recommended for persons aged ≥12 years.

          To those who don't believe that the benefits of being vaccinated against Covid-19 outweigh the risks, and would prefer to be protected by their untrained immune system if/when the Delta variant arrives on our shores – I respect your right to choose and wish you, your whānau and friends the very best of luck.

          Australian Technical Advisory Group on Immunisation (ATAGI) weekly COVID-19 meeting on 11 August 2021 update

          Do the Benefits of COVID Vaccine Outweigh the Risks? [9 minute watch]

          • RedLogix

            Given that I've already had my first AZ shot two weeks ago – I'm at a loss to understand your reply.

            • Drowsy M. Kram

              Glad you've had your first AZ jab – some of my best friends are vaccinated.

              I'm at a loss to understand what you don't understand about my reply, which was an attempt to provide evidence (or, as mauī calls it, "propaganda") consistent with expert consensus hypotheses about the benefits and risks of vaccination against Covid-19.

              I chose to focus on evidence because, as you know and as evinced by some of the replies below, there are many alternative hypotheses about Covid-19, vaccines and vaccination floating around, including that:

              1. NZ will "in short months be… fully vaccinated" [Ad @8:40 am]
              2. 'We' lack "full information and transparency" [francesca @8:54 am]
              3. Vaccination of under-18s against Covid is unnecessary [mauī @9:58 am]

              I embrace" expert consensus hypotheses (which are continually tested and, when necessary, revised) because imo they point the way forward more often than not. I'm less interested in false hopes ("fully vaccinated"), conspiracy theories ("transparency"), and promoting the odd "alternative hypothesis".

              COVID-19 vaccine misinformation
              There’s lots of information available about the COVID-19 vaccine, so it can be hard to know what is reliable.

              Inaccurate information about the COVID-19 vaccine, whether intentional (disinformation) or accidental (misinformation), could work against us at a time when we need to work together to beat the virus.

              Mis or disinformation can spread quickly and can have harmful effects. Mis and disinformation can be spread through a range of different channels including social media, traditional media (television, radio and print), pamphlets, posters and letterbox drops.

              Report it

              Stopping the spread of mis and disinformation about the COVID-19 vaccine will limit any potential confusion for New Zealanders and help them to make informed decisions about the vaccine.

              Help us by reporting any inaccurate or misleading information you see about the vaccine through the link below.

              If possible,

              • Send us a link to the website if the content is online.
              • If you see COVID-19 misinformation on social media, report it to the platform (for example, Facebook or Twitter).
              • If it is a physical item, such as a leaflet, email us a photograph and if possible details of where and how you received it.
              • If possible, include when you received the item and where it came from.

              Report it (covid@ops.cert.govt.nz)

              By emailing us this information, you consent to us sharing it with our partner and other government agencies for investigatory and statistical purposes. Your personal information will never be shared publically.

              • francesca

                You've missed the point that there is no evidence that menstruation is affected by the MRNA jab because no studies have yet been done

                That is not disinformation , in fact all those who cried down womens reports of menstrual disruption , saying that the evidence was that the Mrna jab has no effect on fertility, were guilty themselves of misinformation

                Finally the CDC in the US is taking this seriously, and hopefully menstrual disruption will appear as one of the side effects so that younger women can make informed choices(perhaps delaying IV therapy until some time after the jab)

                I hope you are not trying to characterise the link I provided as misinformation , that should be reported .If you had bothered to read the link you would have seen that she is no anti vaxxer.

                When young women's concerns are so cavalierly brushed aside it's no wonder that trust is lost and vaccine hesitancy becomes a thing

                • Sabine

                  Mind if you don't ask for it you wont know either and i guess that is the issue if the male body is the default body on which such things are 'studied'.

                  But then, men a women now, so i guess biology does not matter, or matters even less then before so we are all good.

                  Edwards says the clinical trials would have picked up any issues that were truly dangerous. For example, researchers were able to detect an extremely rare and dangerous side effect, known as "thrombosis with thrombocytopenia syndrome," that sometimes caused incidental changes to menstruation. "If it were leading to hospitalizations and severe illness, we would capture that," she says.

                  But she acknowledges that relatively minor or unusually rare changes to menstruation might be missed. Participants in the clinical trials are handed a checklist asking about minor side effects such as headaches or arm soreness, but Edwards says there aren't any specific questions such as, "Are your menstrual periods irregular? Is your flow heavier?"


                  disclaimer, i am fully vaccinated and i am past menstruating. 🙂

                • Incognito

                  I realise this might be inconvenient to your narrative but you seem misinformed: https://thestandard.org.nz/open-mike-14-08-2021/#comment-1808944.

                  • Rosemary McDonald

                    What CARM does is not in any way shape or form a "study". (Not what we have come to expect a "study" to comprise of. )

                    There are no studies…and it is very weird that this was not something that was specifically monitored in the initial Pfizer trials.

                    Even weirder that despite thousands of women reporting significant menstrual issues there has been no studies published.

                    Tardy, to say the least.

                    • Incognito

                      Tardy, to say the least.

                      Nope. It is unethical to raise false flags until there is sufficient evidence that it is justified and then warranted. As the data mountain grows and experts have time to analyse all the data into meaningful and actionable information it may or may not become clear whether this constitutes a possible safety signal. However, some small studies may commence that are unlikely to provide conclusive results and more likely to fan the fire of doubt, fear, and hesitancy for the simple fact that it has not been a major blip on the radar until now, after billions of vaccine doses worldwide.

                  • francesca

                    Where the US goes we go , and the CDC has finally started to take womens concerns seriously

                    Hopefully menstrual disruption will make it on to the list of side effects

                    • Incognito

                      Where the science goes we go , and the CDC has always taken genuine concerns seriously


                      Hopefully menstrual disruption will make it on to the list of side effects

                      I hope it doesn’t.

                • Drowsy M. Kram

                  "Bushed aside" like this?

                  CoViD-19 post-vaccine menorrhagia, metrorrhagia or postmenopausal bleeding and potential risk of vaccine-induced thrombocytopenia in women [18 April]
                  There were twice more cases of menstrual irregularities with CoViD Vaccine AstraZeneca than Pfizer (643 vs 315 respectively).

                  Does The COVID-19 Vaccine Affect Your Menstrual Cycle? Here's What Experts Say [12 May]

                  Generally, one irregular period is not cause for alarm. "We really only tell people to let us know if [an irregular period] happens several months in a row or it’s happening multiple times during a year," Dr. Gunter says. "A one-off isn’t medically concerning."

                  However, there is concern that stories of early or heavy periods might prevent women from getting the vaccine.

                  "I think we need to be really careful how we discuss it so we don't frighten women with a theoretical concern," Dr. Polaneczky says. "I'm not advising women anything differently based on these anecdotes." In other words, there's no reason not to get the vaccine.

                  Covid vaccine: Period changes could be a short-term side effect [13 May]

                  Pregnancies, periods and COVID-19 vaccines: what you need to know [29 June]
                  Do COVID-19 vaccines change your menstrual cycle?
                  This article is based on scientific evidence but is not medical advice. Please speak with your doctor for advice regarding your personal circumstances and vaccines for COVID-19.

                  Apologies francesca, I get antsy when critiques of the vaccine rollout include "transparency", as some might take it to imply a cover-up .

                  I agree that it's important to maintain public trust in the Covid-19 vaccine rollout, and that will require more impartial studies on vaccine and vaccination side effects, including side effects in various groups that were excluded (for precautionary reasons) during vaccine trials.

                  Imho it would be foolhardy for public health services to brush aside any potential negative health side effects of a global vaccination effort (4.66 billion doses so far). If we can agree that there has been no conspiracy to cover up possible side effects of the vaccine, then great.

                  I found this recent (balanced) article (by Stelin Paul) on the issue helpful.

                  The effects of COVID-19 vaccines on women and a rising vaccine hesitancy [27 July]
                  Similarly, women in the childbearing age also have major misgivings about infertility that has recently become another reason to turn down the vaccine. As women are delaying their motherhood plans, they are feeling more apprehensive about such information on infertility that indicate that vaccines may interfere with the female reproductive system and that the antibodies generated via the vaccine will start attacking the placenta as the COVID-19 spike protein has structural similarities to Syncytin-1—the protein assisting the development of the placenta. Such theories have been time and again proven wrong by several studies, however, the damage has been done. The situation is just as Raj Mathur, the Chair of the British Fertility Society, explains “The misinformation got there before the correct information.

                  Social Media has provided fodder for newer conspiracy theories that suggest that vaccines are another tactic by the state to enroll a population control programme. It found fertile soil to sow the fear of infertility as it used the initial reservations that people had to propagate such unfound theories. These theories when accepted by health workers who have refused vaccines on the same grounds, has made it exponentially more difficult to convince the local population. Misinformation has made it twice as hard to achieve herd immunity, as we live in a time where people have more faith in Google than on the government. This behaviour not only affects personal decisions but also extends to the decisions made by family and close friends.

                  • Rosemary McDonald

                    From the Stelin Paul article…

                    Side effects on menstrual cycle

                    Even though there has been no concrete study conducted on this,

                    I don't know how many times this has to be said.

                    There has been no concrete study into the effect on women's menstrual cycles from the Covid vaccines. None.

                    So please…. produce an actual specific study into this or concede that these women reporting these symptoms should be taken seriously.

                    Because it just looks plain fucking dodgy ( and very possibly yet another example of the rise and rise of misogyny) that there has been no concrete study.

                  • francesca

                    The CDC, too, is finally searching its vaccine safety database for reports of menstrual changes to try and identify how the vaccine might impact one’s period. Finding a link and sharing the information with women who are getting the vaccine would help prepare them for a potentially unpleasant side effect, and prevent unnecessary concerns.

                    The CDC response has been tardy, but hopefully they will study the VAERS data( which will be skewed by under reporting) address the concerns and add to the list of side effects so that young women can be prepared

                    Your first link is a letter to the BMJ, not a study

                    Your second link says there is no hard data …still no studies

                    the third says could be short lived

                    None of these are studies

                    "Significantly, in June, the National Institute of Health (NIH) announced it would spend around $1 million to support three to four studies looking into the potential link between Covid vaccines and menstruation disruption. A call for proposals was issued, but so far, no awards have been granted. Consequently, no research has commenced, much less concluded with helpful insights.

                    I'm not talking about coverups, I'm talking about real studies addressing young women's concerns

                    If women are not listened to they lose trust and become vulnerable to misinformation

                    • francesca

                      That was for Drowsy

                    • Drowsy M. Kram

                      Another balanced article (imho), this one looking at the possibility of cause-and-effect between Covid vaccinations and menstrual changes, and how to study same. Hopefully health experts can design studies and learn from these once the pandemic is better controlled.

                      Why Reports Of Menstrual Changes After COVID Vaccine Are Tough To Study [9 August]
                      But even if the question can't be answered for COVID-19 vaccines, Riley says she believes issues such as the effects on menstruation need to be addressed in future clinical trials of drugs and vaccines: "Because when you can't answer those questions, you're asking people just to believe."

                      In the absence of (instant) answers, I believe that the benefits of being vaccinated against Covid-19 outweigh the risks, but that's just me – who/what to trust is a personal choice.

                      COVID-19 Vaccines and the Menstrual Cycle [2Aug]
                      NIH encourages researchers to investigate reported changes in menstruation after COVID-19 vaccination

                      Rumours of infertility caused by COVID-19 vaccination hold women back [15 August]

                      However, fear of the vaccine should be dwarfed by fear of the virus, said Dr Hespe.

                      "Protect your bodies and your future children by not getting COVID," she said.

                      "The potential for long-term effects after the virus are far more than any 'flying around myths' about the vaccines."

          • Ad

            We will in short months be in a largely or fully vaccinated percentage population.

            Our policy argument is no longer about vaccination but about protecting the vulnerable from more outbreaks, mitigating its damage, and mashing that effort with the broader public health programmes that we already have.

            Like life pre-covid, we will give all of ourselves better outcomes if we are well connected with people, exercise a lot, are overall healthy, don't smoke, aren't in an isolated community nowhere from healthcare, don't have other major morbidity risks, and act quickly when we do fall ill.

            • RedLogix

              Thank you for saying this out loud. The logical consequence of co-morbidities featuring so highly as a risk factor has been largely left out of the public narrative.

              In principle one of the most potentially effective tools against COVID – improving the overall health of the entire population – has been left lying on the table untouched.

              • Ad

                The faster the Ministry of Health and all those stupid District Health Boards have the load of COVID vaccinations and border controls lifted off them, the better off we will all be.

                MoH have not covered themselves in glory here.

                Government have been given consistent advice that MoH weren't up to it and it needed a separate dedicated agency.

          • francesca

            Drowsy M K
            Be good sweet maid and let those who will be clever

            Informed consent relies on full information and transparency

          • mauī

            To those who don't believe that the benefits of being vaccinated against Covid-19 outweigh the risks, and would prefer to be protected by their untrained immune system if/when the Delta variant arrives on our shores

            To me your comment displays a mixture of propaganda and fear.

            It would be nice to know for example how this "untrained immune system" you speak of has managed to protect millions of children under the age of 18 in the UK over the past year, with an estimated death rate of only 0.000002%

            "Covid: Children's extremely low risk confirmed by study" https://www.bbc.com/news/health-57766717

            • Drowsy M. Kram

              It would be nice to know for example how this "untrained immune system" you speak of has managed to protect millions of children under the age of 18 in the UK over the past year, with an estimated death rate of only 0.000002%

              An annual "death rate of only 0.000002%" for under-18s in the UK is fanciful, since that's a death rate of 1 per 50 million under-18s.

              In your link it's stated that there were 2 Covid-19 deaths per million ("25 children and young people have died as a result of Covid-19"), so the actual annual death rate is 100 times your estimate, i.e. 0.0002%, not "0.000002%".
              Propaganda, or a simple 'miscalculation'? Who knows wink

    • Fran 6.2

      Many thanks Francesca. I have been reading and hearing about this for a while now. This is a well presented look at what we know and what we don't. Again, thank you.

    • Incognito 6.3

      Medsafe is monitoring menstrual disorders after vaccination with the Pfizer vaccine as a possible safety signal.


      • francesca 6.3.1


        Why on earth would you hope menstrual disruption doesn't make it on to the list of side effects for the MRNA vaccine?

        Do you have similar feelings about the other side effects listed like itch, localised soreness, headache, tiredness, rash?

        • Incognito

          Cause & effect, not merely a correlation. If it gets on the list of actually causing bad things, it is a bad thing, which is not a good thing for a vaccine in a pandemic. In other words, I hope (!) the vaccines are as safe as realistically possible and as effective as realistically possible. But it is what it is and time will tell.

          • francesca

            I would always prefer to be armed with information , no matter how "bad" those "bad things" may be

            All drugs have "bad" side effects, with varying degrees of severity, not much point denying it

            • Incognito

              No quibble with that, as long as the information is correct and accurate, correctly interpreted, and not extrapolated and taken out of context. There are too many self-taught dilettantes ‘experts’ out there who twist and turn facts into ignorant word salads with an emotive dressing. They should be ashamed of themselves.

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