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Open Mike 14/01/2017

Written By: - Date published: 6:00 am, January 14th, 2017 - 163 comments
Categories: open mike - Tags:

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163 comments on “Open Mike 14/01/2017 ”

  1. adam 1

    LAUGH. It’s good for you.

    • Siobhan 1.1

      I think this post should be moved down one. Rawsharks in some pain . Serious pain…

      • richard rawshark 1.1.1

        nah Siobahn i’m home now, I replaced the phone, I got myt old number back with the kind help from 2degree’s and feel sad more, that I made so much effort over 2 days to find this.. lady of the night.. and nothing was done, sad our police seem to not want to add to their stats?

  2. richard rawshark 2

    Picked up a hitchhicker in Glenfeild on a road trip 3 day’s ago..approaches me filling up with petrol and kindly asks if i’m heading towards the city centre(Auckland) being the mug I am I was kind and said yes..stole my phone and money and scammed me doing that like a pro. Ended up hunting her for 2 day’s on K’rd. I have just spent 2 day’s in the biggest shit hole I ever had to endure chasing [deleted] it turns out to get my phone back..here’s the crux. I tracked [deleted] to a corner on a K’rd. twice I phoned the police to say here she is.. right here.. SHe’s on video at the mobil on K’rd.. and still they did nothing.. NOTHING.. it took 20 minutes for them to turn up and there advise was it was only a phone go home and forget it.. They wouldn’t look at the video of all angles and previous day. Told me the video was too grainy? bullshit there, they also have multiple camera’s at garages.. he says he can only see her back..bullshit.. It was a total disgrace by the police in solving this crime., after doing all the leg work for them I get told if I touch her..I go to jail [deleted] took the piss and stood there laughing at me with my phone in her hand never changed the number either..

    The police in this country are lazy, useless, uninterested in solving crime and happy to just give you a piece of paper. [deleted] will still be there, doing it to people and on K’rd it seems the police are not interested in upholding the Law. Or are they getting back handers? Next cop asks me anything can fuck right off.

    In the end I had to go to Auckland central and plead fopr them to allow me to use there phone to call 2 degree’s as when your travelling and loose your phone how the hell do you phone anyone?

    use a phone box..i thought that..tried the phone at Northcross takes a card.. went to dairy’s at least 12 no one had cards for the phone.. frustrated..i could have literally murdered someone by the end of this..,Bullshit.

    I got so angry at the police attitude and rudeness and lack of actually helping me I nearly took the law into my own hands and smashed the living crap out of her. Problem was i’m 50 she was young and I suddenly found out if they run from me I can’t catch them anymore.

    The police in this country have turned into a joke..any cop reads this, woe behold you next time you pull me over for something..

    [So sure, you’re angry. But a couple of things. 1. This is a political blog, not some bloody facebook feed. 2. Sexist epithets have no place here.] – Bill

    • richard rawshark 2.1

      politicians have a responsibility to uphold our services, the angle I was making was our police have become useless with example. and a ho’s a ho..u think I should talk about her after what she did with manners. I’m not labelling women in general, so get off your PC soapbox and don’t be so bloody women rights and distracting from the points. I thought after reading your comment back.

      The police seem to have a big lack of wanting to do anything these days.. what’s with that? Never used to be like this.

      What I was expecting back on OPEN FORUM 14/1/2017 was comments about the sad state of our police after my long example.

      I find this a lot here..you mods, mod in a way that stifles freedom of expression and stops talking points. You accuse people of having agenda’s they never intended and at times I think you go on like old knitting ladies tut tutting everything you can.. get a grip on IRL mate.

      I’m not angry.. it’s just the way I write and you read it..and thought so, why would I be angry on the standard for something she did to me, or what the nz police seem unable to do , when you do the work for them and they still make no effort to arrest her.. that’s a talking point on politics IMHO. and not a anger outburst.

      • wek a 2.1.1

        Hey Richard, good to see you back. Can you please not have a go at the mods, you will just get another ban and I like your presence on TS.

        Btw, TS apparently used to be a free for all in its first few years and the place got overrun with trolls. There are good reasons for having moderation, one of which is to make the place more inclusive. We have a lot of leeway here all things considered but there are limits if we want people to enjoy the place.

        • richard rawshark

          Fair enough, and thanks wek a for the welcome back.. the mods, think I have anger issues from past behaviours I certainly understand that, but right there was a case of painting with brushes mate, I was not angry here, I just made a comment on what happened, to explain why I was not impressed with the service I got from the police under this National leadership. I thought it was a good talking point, however the mods went straight to the word Ho, and started acusing me of being angry. If I keep posting here I won’t tolerate unreasonable calls of me being angry as much as it’s my responsibility to remain calm after coming back from a ban.. or there is no point being here if they are running on me being angry in everything I say.

          • richard rawshark

            I see I put in some anger about how I felt at that time, when it was going on, it was not meant to come across as angry now.. as you could I was hoping read it and also get a glimpse of how frustrated one can get when dealing with the police who left me feeling so mad I wanted to take the law into my own hands. I see reading it back how it looks like anger, perhaps i’d ask the mods to not read comments once, but re-read them a couple of times and ask themselves, is there any other reason he could of wrote that, that way without it being unjustified anger.

            Stephen Kings a great writer IMHO, and he can make you FEEL how it was when something happened, IMHO I think that is great story telling and comes across as passionate and with feelings.

            So when someone writes something you have to read things a few timnes to understand all the nuances in what is written and not rush to hastey conclusions. Also feedback is good, and my comment back is good feedback they should not take it to heart but for what it is.

    • richard rawshark 2.2

      Perhap’s I should start voting National, if labour people can’t PC past the word HO.. then you have lost all common sense, are more interested in.. god knows what.. deleteing the word HO.. whore, prostitute? do those words offend you? They are in the bloody dictionary mate.. that is some case of overmodding right there..good day.

    • James 2.3

      ” I nearly took the law into my own hands”

      Violence is never the answer. Or vigilante actions.

      You seem to threaten or infer physical actions when you are stressed. Not good man – try taking to someone about that – because the police are right – you take that step – you will be the one in jail.

  3. richard rawshark 3

    PS she’s on video at the Wairau rd service station in Glenfeild where she approached me, and at the mobil on K’ rd where I dropped her off, and the next day as well when I caught her. The lazy bastards do nothing.. it’s all too much effort for our once glorious police.

    If I write to the police complaints i’ll just get back a standard load of pre prepared excuses..Busy priorities bla bla..

    Well this has turned me off people now, I used to be a nice person who would give someone a lift, no one gets anything from me anymore..

  4. Ffloyd 4

    Well, well. Who’ da thunk it. Ex rugby player and current hockey player (female) are now our Very Own NZ Royalty. Royal Wedding MIGHT be today. News according to Herald or Stuff. Can’t remember which. Good Grief!

    • Draco T Bastard 4.1


      The MSM is leading us down the garden path with celebrity worship.

      • richard rawshark 4.1.1

        I saw Jamie farrar the tickle film guy come out of the garage when I was chasing Ho’s for phones on K’rd, he looked tall and was blowing on a pie…

        OI Farrar ur famous I yelled out, he kept walking..

        my claim to meet fame was over…

  5. Andre 5

    Looking at how Putin plays the far left as well as the alt-right…


      • Andre 5.1.1

        That wikipedia article you linked to gives quite a different impression than the actual Daily Beast story.


        • Carolyn_nth

          Really? Please explain?

          Looks pretty much like what the Wikipedia article says: left wingers critical of Clinton are claimed to promote Trump directly or inadvertently.
          eg the stuff on Greenwald being pro Trump & pro Putin

          • Andre

            First, I’ve seen it claimed a number of times that the headline usually doesn’t get written by the author of a piece, it’s usually an editor that chooses it. So to base a criticism of an author on the grounds that the headline is much more sensational than the actual contents is unfair.

            The actual writing is much more nuanced, for instance passages such as “Unlike the aforementioned wannabe revolutionaries, most of these progressives haven’t endorsed Trump. But they nonetheless embrace the radical departure in American foreign policy that his presidency promises.”

            I would also note that when someone writes a piece, in the context of an election, highlighting flaws in candidate A, without at least mentioning candidate B’s serious flaws in the same area (or worse, cherry-picking something positive about candidate B to highlight a contrast), it’s reasonable to infer support for candidate B.

            Greenwald is just one that comes to mind as one who has written harsh anti-Clinton pieces, but also writes mildly positive approving passages about Trump such as “Questioning… whether it has this ongoing value and whether the U.S. should be expending the resources it is expending on NATO when we have massive income inequality and our working class is being deprived in ways previously unimaginable, those are perfectly legitimate questions to ask. NATO is not a religion,”. I can’t bring to mind any balancing pieces exposing Trump that he’s written. So if he writes a lot of anti-Clinton and includes stuff that’s pro-Trump, what’s the reasonable conclusion to draw? If his writing leaves a misleading impression of his views, whose fault is it?

            • Carolyn_nth

              OK. I’m with you on many of those points: e.g. headlines, political biases, etc.

              However, the “Useful idiots” article, like the other Daily Beast one you linked to, clearly is pro-Clinton, and pro-US-exceptionalism and imperialism:

              In “Useful Idiots”:

              But it is the second group of progressive Trump fans, subtler in their sympathies, who warrant the most concern. These are the so-called anti-imperialists who harbor deep revulsion at the idea of American power being used for good in the world. America, they believe, is more often than not a source of evil and disorder—a jaundiced view of our global role that they share with the Republican nominee. Unlike the aforementioned wannabe revolutionaries, most of these progressives haven’t endorsed Trump. But they nonetheless embrace the radical departure in American foreign policy that his presidency promises.

              For centuries, Americans have broadly accepted the idea that their country serves a unique world role as both a political leader and moral exemplar. This notion of American exceptionalism traces itself to the nation’s founding upon universal ideals of liberty and individual rights, garnered real sustenance through the part America played defeating fascist and then communist totalitarianism, and endures today as America remains a beacon for people living under tyranny overseas. Except, that is, on the isolationist right and anti-imperialist left, two groups the Trump campaign has united in rejection of American global leadership.

              My bold. So, basically the article is selectively quoting from critics of Clinton (and other right leaning democrats – I don’t see Clinton or the views in the quotes above as left wing), to suggests any critics are in bed with the autocratic forces of evil.

              The other article, “How Putin played the left”, does the same with noted critics to the left of Clinton (&Obama), including Jill Stein and Sanders.

              I do agree that Greenwald does tend to be stronger in his condemnation of Clinton than Trump. However, other authors at the Intercept have been stronger critics of Trump.

              Ultimately, though, the Daily Beast does seem to be a strong supporter of the US status quo (pre-Trump as POTUS), and seems to be out to discredit the left, and critiques of their imperialism and foreign policy., by aligning them with autocrats like Putin.

              • The author describes himself as a “conservative polemicist:”

                Over the past eight years, a bevy of Republican politicians and conservative polemicists (including yours truly) have assailed Obama for disavowing American exceptionalism.

                So it’s unsurprising he endorses American exceptionalism and considers the USA a force for good in the world. But he certainly won’t be a Hillary Clinton supporter…

              • Andre

                I don’t think the piece is portraying the far left as “in bed with”, it’s saying that there are those on the far left that can be manipulated into words and actions that damage the centre-left. Thereby inadvertantly enabling the alt-right and others that strongly oppose the goals of the far-left.

                Personally, my politics are very close to Stein’s on most issues. If the US had some kind if STV or proportional representation, my voting choice would have been dead easy: Stein. But in the system the US has, voting for Stein would be like buying a lottery ticket for the daydreams. Except the lottery ticket is much more likely to actually deliver the dreams. So I swallowed hard, and took a good look at the realistic choices.

                Frankly, it looked to me like the main effect of the one-sided criticisms, single-issue shouting, and false equivalences put out by by the far-lefties obscured that 1) Sanders really had dragged the Dems close to his positions, 2) for everything “good” that Trump said (that got highlighted by the far-lefties) he said several things that should be horrifying to lefties 3) while a Clinton would do a lot of things lefties would disagree with, on average she would move things in the right direction, while Trump would be mostly a fukn disaster.

                So to the extent that the noisy anti-Clinton far-lefties had an effect on switching some Dems to vote Stein, and turning other Dems off Clinton so they stayed home, yes the noisy far-lefties helped Trump win and were thereby “useful idiots” for Putin and Trump. And I think the Daily Beast is doing a good thing by calling it out.

                So I’m super-grateful we’ve got MMP here so I can vote for someone a bit closer to my views here than I can in the US. And why I’m hot on reducing thresholds for representation so a wider range of views get represented.

                • Carolyn_nth

                  Mostly agree – though there was so many different views, as far as I can see – and then the noisy interference from various journalists invested in one position or another, and the manipulations of the US & Kremlin intelligence agencies – I really am concerned that expressions of true left wing politics get plastered with the mud being thrown around.

                  Yes, prefer MMP. But also, the power structure is so entrenched in the US, that the least powerful are always the losers.

                  I suspect there’s a lot going on behind the scenes – manipulations, strong arming, strategic leaks, etc – that we truly don’t know the extent of the propaganda and surveillance warfare that is on-going.

            • Carolyn_nth

              Greenwald, on his twitter feed today, has been strongly attacking the claims that the anti-imperialist left is supporting Putin.


              Can anyone cite a single left-wing figure of any prominence who has ever expressed “solidarity” with Putin? I know of literally none.


              Right. If you question sufficiency of evidence for govt claims about Russia, they accuse you of “loving Putin”: as dumb as it is dishonest.

              • Andre

                Ok, now that’s just dishonest bullshit from Greenwald. There are plenty of people and organisations questioning the sufficiency of evidence that aren’t being accused of “loving Putin”.

              • Bill

                The war against intelligence is only in its initial phase Carolyn_nth. Many foot-soldiers and noble banner bearers will work tirelessly to make society like a glorious formation lock-stepping confidently into the future.

                And of course, the line, the direction – the arguments or perspectives that inform the unfolding of this great harmonious order…well, it’s unthinkable that any “right thinking” person would question it.

                So to question is to be wrong. To be critical is to betray or willingly or unwittingly be in the service of all that the glorious formation seeks to overcome and set right.

                You can already see it happening across numerous threads in the comments sections here.

                It’s Red Scare. It’s McCarthyism.

              • Can anyone cite a single left-wing figure of any prominence who has ever expressed “solidarity” with Putin? I know of literally none.

                Expressed “solidarity?” Sure, can’t say I’ve seen any myself. But “expressed solidarity” is a fairly precise criterion – comment 5 linked to an article that lays out fairly convincingly how the far left, including at least one prominent figure (Jill Stein) have put themselves in the position of endorsing or supporting Putin.

                • adam

                  So your running with the raw news story then Psycho Milt?

                  Seems you are running with a very similar attack vector you used with Syria, in effect to shut people down people on a issue.

                  That not going to induce debate and the free exchange of ideas. But then again, I’m not sure I’ve ever seen you promote debate or the free exchange of ideas.

                  • Andre

                    Uh, Psycho Milt is responding to how Greenwald is presenting a distorted picture of what his critics are saying which is a kind of strawman argument. Greenwald is using a very similar technique to the Nats inquiring into misconduct by one of their own: set the terms of inquiry very narrowly in order to exclude the problem behaviour from examination.

                    As for trying to shut down the debate, get a mirror handy and take a good look at your reply to PM. Did you actually address the points he made?

                    • adam

                      Raw news to obscure for the likes of you Andre?

                      And obviously I don’t need a mirror because you joined in. 🙂

                  • Bill

                    No analysis or interpretations of events, nor perspectives on issues are to be taken on board unless an approved level of opprobrium for the commissars chosen enemies, or fealty to the commissars chosen masters is in clear evidence.

                    That’s how it is right now. And it goes way beyond PM, Andre and some others in the comments and way beyond some mutterings from a few authors…

                    …this is what liberalism looks like – lashing out as it dies.

                    Everything is to be feared even as everything is to be cleaved to. So everything that would seek to question or understand or shed light is to be destroyed under the commissar’s crushing boot of conformity and unity.

                    Just look at our supposedly pluralistic media that has become no more than what might have been expected from PRAVDA taking on some biological characteristic and dividing and multiplying into a thousand or a hundred thousand clones of itself.

                    Where are the alternative analyses or the critical analyses? (There are none). Where is the mainstream news outlet that expresses doubt or asks a question or two? (They don’t exist).

                    There’s definitely a dark foreboding emanating from ‘our’ political institutions these days and I don’t know that I’ve ever seen anything like it. For them, it can’t but end badly. For us, it depends.

                    • Andre

                      So there are some sources, such as Greenwald, that are totally exempt from scrutiny and criticism? May we have an approved list of all those sources whose pronouncements must be accepted without question? Please?

                    • Bill

                      So there are some sources, such as Greenwald, that are totally exempt from scrutiny and criticism?


                      May we have an approved list of all those sources whose pronouncements must be accepted without question?

                      According to a number of flailing liberals, the BBC (and others) can, more or less, be taken at face value. They are, according to flailing liberals, pretty damned objective. In fact, to question the BBC is to be an apologist, a shill for (insert designated official enemy).

                      I never question my cat’s pronouncements.

    • Sanctuary 5.2

      I read that piece, and it got me thinking about the difference between me and a lot of the wishy washy believe anything fringe merchants of the Green movement/anti-Clinton crowd. I think it might be that I have actually seen the old Warsaw Pact. I visited East Germany for a couple of weeks back in the 1980s. It was railway sidings of tanks, uniformed soldiers, grey food served in cold grey restaurants, scared locals and being followed everywhere you go. It was depressing, many buildings in East Berlin were frozen in time, unrepaired and scarred from the battles of 1945. I found it a scary and an awful place. After my little taste of totalitarianism, I couldn’t wait to get back to West Germany and freedom. When you realise the slighly on edge West German border police with their submachine guns were there to protect you from the hyper-aggresssive East German border guards should it all turn to custard on the border you also realise what the cost of freedom might be. After those two weeks, I had no problem identifying between “us” and “them”.

      To many on the left today have no idea how awful totalitarianism is or how scary it is to suddenly realise you are not protected by the rule of law and have no human rights. Putin and his kleptocrat thugs in his gangster state are horrible people who wish us all harm. Xi Jinping and the rest of his murderous butchers of the Chinese communist party would brutally torture and kill anyone of us who stood up them, if they could get their hands on us. People like Jill Stein and the flaky occupy movement media and the rest of crackpot conspiracy theory left need to grow up. Maybe they need to spend a fortnight in North Korea, to see what life looks like in a totalitarian state.

      This blog’s comments sections are currently plagued by the worst kind of false moral equivalence troll, a person so monumentally stupid, vindictive and egotisitical that he wishes to do nothing but sneer at the ideals of freedom and seek to act as the useful idiot of our enemies. I’ve seen with my own eyes what sort of place Putin and Xi Jinping want to create for us, and I have no time for people who act as traitors by supporting them.

      • Andre 5.2.1

        Yeah. I visited Czechoslavakia as an invited guest for a sporting event in the early 80s. It was deeply uncomfortable and depressing.

        • Sanctuary

          The piece is ridiculous, so i guess it fits you perfectly.

        • Stunned Mullet

          “The term “russophobia” (the hatred and/or fear of things Russian) has become rather popular in the recent years, courtesy of the anti-Russian hysteria of the AngloZionist Empire, ”

          Oh the irony….

      • Carolyn_nth 5.2.3

        But the article above is more about discrediting people who are strongly left wing, by falsely smearing them as either Trump & Putin supporters or enablers.= are supporters of Putin or Trump.

        And the people being criticised don’t actually support Trump or Putin.

        • Sanctuary

          The article says – “…Putin has cultivated dupes, fellow travelers, and purblind fools among plenty of American progressives…”

          Accurate, IMHO.

          • Carolyn_nth

            See my response to Andre above at 10.56am.

            …has cultivated dupes, fellow travelers, and purblind fools among plenty of American progressives…

            Now in general, I agree with that about the Kremlin and Putin. But I also think that is true of the CIA, US intelligence community, and the US defenders of US imperialism and foreign policy.

            There is a propaganda and surveillance/intelligence war going on between the Kremlin and the US agencies. Trump has inserted himself into it one way or another.

            Meanwhile the US powers that be also use the whole situation to discredit any strong expression of left wing values, policies, campaigns and critiques.

      • Psycho Milt 5.2.4

        Thank you. My sentiments exactly.

      • Olwyn 5.2.5

        You do not have to be the biggest fan of either Putin or Xi Jinping to think that (a) war is to be avoided, especially war with such destructive potential, and/or (b) that a multipolar world is a better thing than a world dominated by a single power. “Power corrupts, and absolute power corrupts absolutely” as the saying goes.

        • Sanctuary

          “… (b) that a multipolar world is a better thing than a world dominated by a single power….”

          Yet people look back with nostalgia at the Pax Romana, or the Pax Britannica, or the golden age of the Han dynasty.

          A multipolar world is a dangerously unstable one, which historically result in large scale wars of alliances.

          • Olwyn

            Further down, at comment 12, you approvingly quoted, Bill Clinton’s generation, however, believed that concentration of financial power could be virtuous, as long as that power was in the hands of experts. They largely dismissed the white working class as a bastion of reactionary racism.

            Do you not think that this hubris would increase rather than abate in a world dominated by such people, with no need to negotiate or make concessions? Owen Jones thinks it increased greatly after the Berlin wall fell, and neoliberal capitalists felt they could from then on reign supreme. I do not have a link, but the claim is from his book “The Establishment & how they get away with it.”

      • Sabine 5.2.6

        i once spend the better part of the night at the german/german boarder with people pointing guns at us and taking the car apart.


        the old man driving the car, Adi – short for Adolf, was pointing to his rather long arms and large fists when the Volkspolizist asked if we had weapons in the car.

        oh dear oh dear oh dear.
        Also fun in Berlin, no matter how drunk one got, you could never get lost, the wall was there to guide you home. Always.

        Yes, a lot of people don’t have much of an idea what it looked like, what it felt like and those that did know – family members that did make it out of East Germany after years of ‘re-education’ never much spoke about it.

        • Clump_AKA Sam

          Perhaps you could submit a proposal to deal with the problem direct to Merkal. The board is set for the dismantling of the left, there entire economic thesis has been discredit along with the right. Nows a great time to submit a proposal to deal with the problems you’ve out lined. Because the system can’t deal with all the refuges flowing from the Middle East. But first there’d have to be admission there’s no solution.

      • One Two 5.2.7

        …plagued by the worst kind of false moral equivalence…”

        Projection and hypocrisy appear to be your ‘stock and trade’

        Comments from you , Sanctuary, are some of the lowest level on this site

        It is self evident that you have not a single shred of understanding about what you write. The words do tell a story about the personality behind them…

      • beatie 5.2.8

        I spent 4 months in 1982 working for Topdeck Travel on their USSR/Eastern Europe camping tours. Each trip was for a month and visited East Germany, Poland, USSR, Romania, Hungary and Czechoslovakia. Absolutely fascinating but very oppressive. We were among the first tourists to be allowed in Poland after the Solidarity uprising and I’ll never forget the sight of Russian soldiers goosestepping through Warsaw. I found Romania and Czechoslovakia the most oppressive. It would take 6 hours to get into and out of the USSR because they searched everything and even read peoples diaries. I wonder if it is still like that.

    • Paul 6.1

      Written by the CEO of the Maxim Institute, an organisation responsible for some of the most divisive ideas around.

      • Wensleydale 6.1.1

        You mean, the “badly constructed front for the political meddling of evangelical Christians” Maxim Institute? The one of whom Bruce Logan was a former director? I’m sure they’ve nothing but our best interests at heart, more so if you happen to be homosexual.

      • bwaghorn 6.1.2

        Or you could tell me what’s wrong with what he wrote

        • HDCAFriendlyTroll

          I like the irony, don’t you? “Like a bickering couple, we need to find healthy ways to disagree about politics”, lolz.

      • James 6.1.3

        Do you even read things and make a comment – or do you go “I don’t like the author so I’ll just ignore and keep reading my echo chambers ?”

        Way to learn.

    • Andre 7.1

      Cory Booker may have just given his 2020 chances a big black eye with that one.

    • Sabine 7.2

      well its all good then, they will loose their Health Care and have to go back to bankruptcy in order to receive surgery or simply just die.
      In the mean time, America will be Great again! Woot Woot.

  6. Andre 8

    A long but worthwhile look back at the fake news in the US election. Given how successful it was and how much of it was sprayed around here on The Standard, we’ll all need to be very wary of it for our own elections coming up.


  7. joe90 9


    This Trump caricature in a Swiss newspaper #TheResistance pic.twitter.com/rsSlZ7RCyu— R. Saddler 📎 (@Politics_PR) January 13, 2017

  8. mickysavage 10

    Bans for TRP and Lanthanide are up today …

  9. joe90 11

    All hail dear leader, or else!

    (1 of 7)

    1. Republicans are threatening the head of the Office of Government Ethics for criticizing Trump https://t.co/dS2gh9TAhP pic.twitter.com/6aGL9EUcBA— Judd Legum (@JuddLegum) January 13, 2017

  10. Sanctuary 12

    An excellent summation of Obama here –

    Along woth the best two paragraph summation of how and why third way, middle class identity politics has crippled the political left in the west since the 1970s – an own goal if there ever was one:

    “…There’s history here: In the 1970s, a wave of young liberals, Bill Clinton among them, destroyed the populist Democratic Party they had inherited from the New Dealers of the 1930s. The contours of this ideological fight were complex, but the gist was: Before the ’70s, Democrats were suspicious of big business. They used anti-monopoly policies to fight oligarchy and financial manipulation. Creating competition in open markets, breaking up concentrations of private power, and protecting labor and farmer rights were understood as the essence of ensuring that our commercial society was democratic and protected from big money.

    Bill Clinton’s generation, however, believed that concentration of financial power could be virtuous, as long as that power was in the hands of experts. They largely dismissed the white working class as a bastion of reactionary racism. Fred Dutton, who served on the McGovern-Fraser Commission in 1970 , saw the white working class as “a major redoubt of traditional Americanism and of the antinegro, antiyouth vote.” This paved the way for the creation of the modern Democratic coalition. Obama is simply the latest in a long line of party leaders who have bought into the ideology of these “new” Democrats, and he has governed likewise, with commercial policies that ravaged the heartland…”

  11. Sabine 13

    i am sure our double dipper from Dipton, the beancounter in Chief is studying this and wonders if there is a way to apply it here 🙂

    Quote: “But wait, it gets worse. Another feature of this bizarre GOP scheme gives exporters a gargantuan tax break by, in effect, not taxing their export revenues. Let’s say a corporation sells a piece of machinery to Iran for $5 million, which cost only $4 million to produce. That means $1 million in taxable profit. Under the new Republican scheme, however, that $5 million received from the mullahs wouldn’t be taxable. Instead of a $1 million profit, the corporation, for tax purposes, would have a $4 million loss. Loophole doesn’t begin to describe this “tax break.”Quote End


    hat tip red state,

    quote” As the tax reform debate heats up in Congress, the obscure border adjustment tax (BAT) is causing friction within the GOP.

    What is the BAT? Well, Steve Forbes calls it “a nasty political and economic trap for Donald Trump” — a trap he says is being set by Republicans rather than Democrats.”

    lol. lol. lol.

  12. Sabine 14

    can someone explain to my why rural white is ‘heartland’ and urban brown is not?

    why can we tell people that live in cities to ‘move out if they can’t afford it’, to get of benefits and ‘move to where the jobs are’, to ‘get an education if they want to earn more money’ to not ‘have children they can’t afford’ but then we turn around and don’t expect the same of white people living in the heart land?

    And why do we give people like those in the US heartland a pass on voting for the same fuckwits that have been fucking(looking at Kansas, Wisconsin, North Carolina, Kentucky, Louisiana and so on and so on, heck even Texas) it up for them and tell the democrats that they should give up their voter base of women, people of colour, people who do not identify as heterosexual white male, low income workers, etc etc to make way for the’ white male worker’ who wants to go back to a time where women were barefeet pregnant fixing sandwiches, people of colour being segregated back into obscurity, and anyone not being a heterosexual white male going to the closet?

    Please someone explain the heartland to me. I don’t get it. I honestly don’t.

    • Ad 14.1

      Not sure what your second paragraph means, but your initial question is within the formation of New Zealand identity, economy and society through the development of extensive then intensive agriculture.

      • Sabine 14.1.1

        i am talking about the US. white heartland is evangelic fundamentalist. YOu know the once who think abstinence only is a good way to prevent pregnancy – even when married i would guess, that think that homosexuality etc is an abomination, and that ‘these people’ you know brown people should learn their place again. Essentially the current Republican lot led by fundamentalists that would like to become a ‘christian’ Nation again by ending the persecution of the Christians by the non Christians that live in Cities. 🙂

        So what you are saying then is that a few hundred people – old NZ Farming Stock are ‘heartland’ ‘real NZ’lers’ and all the others are not?
        Or are you saying that a few hundred people – old NZ white large scale Landowners are heartland and all others are not?

      • weka 14.1.2

        +1 although I would say concepts of the Heartland predate the neoliberal revolution by a long way. Sabine’s second paragraph is about the bastardisation of NZ culture that has happened since.

        Sabine, was there something specific that prompted the question?

        • Sabine

          it is these articles that basically say that if Clinton would have abandoned all other democratic voter blocks in favour of the ‘disgruntled white male voter’ in the heartland she would have won. (and we often hear the same here in NZ – where Labour = urban / brown / low income / female/ non land owning etc, National = white / male / upper income/ rural / land owning

          My point is why are we calling people / areas heartland – in it self a loaded term as the heart is the engine of the body – implying that all other areas of a country are of lesser importance.

          combine this with things that we have heard often over the last years

          if people in the city can’t afford to live there they should move.
          we could equally say that if people on the country side don’t have jobs they should just move.

          why are women with large families in the urban areas a drain on socity, while the white women on countrysides having large families are not?

          the double standard that is applied Heartland = white , Urban = Brown.

          Fwiw, the heartland in the US voted to have the Afordable Care Act gutted, they voted to have the remains of their public schools gutted, they voted to have Birth Control and Family planning replaced with abstinence only (even in marriage) as only form of Family planning, they voted to have environmental degradation be made standard operational procedures, and for what its worth non of the jobs they lost 40 years ago is gonna come back.

          I don’t recall rural and urban in Germany or France or Holland to be adressed that way. I grew up on the deep bavarian country side and then went to he City as a young women. It was always just Germany. Non of that these are better then those bs.

          • Carolyn_nth

            In settler/colonial societies, like Aussie, NZ, the US, national identity has often been tied to the (freedom of the) open countryside. It features a lot in novels and movies – cowboys in the US and the man alone in rugged country in NZ.

            100% pure and all that.

            They’re kind of origin myths, in (implicit) opposition to the (implicitly class-based) corruption of the (much more urbanised) UK/Europe.

            The “heartland” or countryside-identification is not usually the rural marae, the Aboriginal township, or the native American reservation.

            • Sabine

              that makes sense to me.

              a fake creations myth to hold up stereotypes that never existed.

              • wek a

                No, it’s not fake, it’s real. NZ really does have a love historically for the countryside. That’s different than the politics you describe which I address below.

                • Sabine

                  sorry not being clear enough.

                  what are the oldest ‘urban’ centres in NZ , the oldest ports? If we apply the creation myth to ‘heartland’ one would have to include the old Port Towns at least?

                  i get the heartland in an emotional sense of love of the country side, especially what is left over of old NZ in Doc Parks and the like.

                  but heartland in the political sense i find hard to digest. It seems divisive, not only based on race, gender but also location.

                  so the question that i put to you then is the North Island less Heartland then the South Island?

                  I am not trying to be divisive, i am really trying to understand this emotional separation of a country.

                  example, Bavaria is a beautiful place with the Alps, the lakes, the cows and such, but it is not the heartland of Germany. It is often descriped as an industrial powerhouse as due to some quirky german legislation it is a free state within the federation of Germany and can use that to its advantage in incentivising businesses to settle there. But neither is Schleswig Holstein or Sachsen or Friesland the Heartland.

                  • Clump_AKA Sam

                    Lol. If you had followed my comments over the last few weeks you would know all that

                    • Sabine

                      i am not stoned enough to understand what you say.

                      this was probably the most ‘english’ phrase you typed all week.

                      and my english is limited i tell ya.

                    • Clump_AKA Sam

                      Mmmhmmm. You seem desperate with all this talk of German boarder crack downs. Can I suggest you have a sleep before going out again and pointing fingers and words at men with guns

                  • Carolyn_nth

                    Oldest European port? kororareka? Bay of islands?

                    oldest urban centre? Dunedin/Otago was a very dominant centre in the late 19th and early 20th century.

                  • Pat

                    suspect the term is just a synonym for rural areas that has been adopted, often for marketing that has been pinched by the politicians.

                    as to north v south being more heartland than the other that would simply be an extension of the North South parochialism

                • richard rawshark

                  3 days in Auckland left me, seriously, wondering how they can put up with the place. The roads were a nightmare, the people I found rude, and when they heard my please’s and thank you’s they all smiled and looked at me like I was a weirdo. I have left Auckland flummoxed as to why oh why would you put up with the place. To many cars, people riding your bumper, cutting lanes, crowds at beaches like I had not seen since Greece..i left Auckland shocked at it’s transformation since 2000 when I left there it was nothing like that, and Asians.., OMG not dissing Asians just commenting..it was like being in Asia. I felt the minority for the first time in my life, in my own country of birth, I felt we had been overrun. just a feeling I got and I cannot get over the fact it did that to me.

                  • Carolyn_nth

                    On Auckland buses, passengers usually say thank-you to the driver when they get off.

                    • richard rawshark

                      OMG thank you, thank you, for a minute I thought they had completely lost the meaning of manners up there. There is a glimmer of hope.

                    • Carolyn_nth

                      Well, rr, there probably is a lot of rudeness in Auckland. But there is also politeness about, too.

                    • Sabine

                      i don’t think us Aucklanders are ruder then people on the country side. 🙂 We might just be a bit more stressed but that can be blamed on the traffic.

                  • Wensleydale

                    Most people stay here for the work. And some people don’t like being too far removed from family — and if all their family lives in Auckland…

                    I went to Putaruru a couple of years back for a birthday. The air was fresh, the grass was green and everyone was so laid back. But there was bugger all to do. If you took a bunch of kids from Auckland and plopped them down in a place like Putaruru, they’d be climbing the walls within a week.

                    “Can we go to Westfield, Dad?”
                    “This is Putaruru, sweetpea. There is no Westfield.”

                    Can’t say I missed the clogged roads, awful driving and generally shitty attitudes of Auckland, though.

                    • JanM

                      Well, there’s the swing bridge at Arapuni, the sanctuary at Maungatautari, complete with tuatara, the toy museum in the castle at Tirau, and the lovely little shops and cafes in that village, the lovely carvings all up and down the streets of Tokoroa, the gorgeous hot springs at Okoroire, and Rotorua and Taupo are an hour or less away. Westfield – very boring by comparison! 🙂

          • wek a

            Yep NZ is a racist country.

            I think what your are describing isn’t about concepts of the heartland though, at least not in NZ. Those dynamics strike me as ftom the neoliberal decades. And it’s not like we have farmers coming on to TS running alt-right or anti-identity politics 😉 One of the classic example she of what you describe comes from Chris Trotter and his Waitakere Man myth. Haven’t heard it for a while so hopefully it was discredited but what we have now is another version.

            From what I cannot tell it’s the politics of dudes who don’t actually care about racism, sexism etc, or who in facts oppose advances in those areas and are now feeling encouraged to be bolder about that post-Obama.

            There are some valid politics around working class and poor people and what has been done to them while others thrived but I also don’t understand the need to roll back advances for women, Māori, gay people etc in order to address that. The identity politics I’ve been involved in my whole adult life has been inclusive. What we are seeing now is the disintegration of society and a whole bunch of nasty coming out. Some of that is latent until now.

    • Red 14.2

      I will try to help you Sabine, you see the world the way you want it not the way it really is, and you class every one into and identity and then assume they all think the same way if they are that identify, rather than individuals, hope this helps 😀

      • Sabine 14.2.1


        this really is something i don’t get.

        What is heartland. Why is Dipton more heartland then say Auckland or Tauranga?

        • Red

          Because often people in the cities or their parents etc migrated from these heartland towns, its where the family connection are, not sure why you are so exercised over it

          • Sabine

            when we are elevating one group over another it becomes an abusive statement.
            simple as that.

            and we are hearing over and over again, how the majority that lives and large/medium/smaller centres should yield to the few that live in heartland.

            and i ask why and based on what. not exersised just intrigued. 🙂

            • BM


              A central region, especially one that is politically, economically, or militarily vital to a nation, region, or culture.

              Dairy and other primary goods are what makes NZ most of its money, therefore the country is the heartland.

              • Sabine

                hmmm, how much money is made in the Cities? And the people that come from the heartland to live and work in the Cities, are they still heartland?

                I can understand the regional thinking i.e. the beauty of the contry, the mountains and that, but then you also have stunning coastlines and such and Fishery is a good business in NZ, and Tourism is a good income in NZ. etc etc.

                I don’t try to diminish the value of farmers or their work, don’t get me wrong,
                I am trying to understand the political importance of Heartland, when in fact ‘Heartland’ does not even cover 50% of he population.

                • Clump_AKA Sam

                  The moment the crown seized Tainui land, commerce in New Zealand started flowing from Waikato, to Auckland in around the 1860-1880s, and then onto the rest of the world, people started betting on those future prices. So the three enterprises are one and the same.

              • richard rawshark

                Great I live in the Heartland.. you will obey my wishes then… Sabines point is.. what make Heartland so special they should get preferential treatment I agree with her totally, it’s supposed to be about ALL kiwi’s not one group and to put any justification for it, even if they are critical to industry whatever, is her point made. They shouldn’t, they should be valued, not preferentially treated over others, that nuance is the crux of it IMHO.

              • JanM

                And here was me thinking it was tourism!

              • KJT

                Actually, most of the value added exports come from Auckland.

                But. I don’t want to burst your bubble.

            • Gabby

              What are you talking about? Who is saying this?

          • Sabine

            also i would guess that Auckland, Dunedin are very old towns by NZ standards.

            So if old rural towns are Heartland, should the same not be applied to old Urban tows.

    • Gabby 14.3

      ‘heartland’ means ‘flyover’. An area to pay lip service to that can otherwise be safely ignored.

      • Sabine 14.3.1

        still makes no sense, as the people in the city are equally only getting lip service and are otherwise safely ignored.

      • Red 15.1.1

        Officially reported from Paulsky NZ RT correspondent and pilger greenwald sock puppet

        • Clump_AKA Sam

          Material units are being forward deployed so soldiers and tankers can fall on them. Meaning instead of taking 2 months to deploy brigade sized elements and begin operations it takes 2 weeks. This information was glimed from the dragon trails which tested how long it takes a stricter brigade to travel across European held NATO territory

        • Paul

          Happy to see myself as aligned with outstanding journalists such as Pilger and Greenwald.
          Guess you connect more with the propagandists at CNN and the Washington Post.
          Didn’t you learn anything frm the lies about WMD and Iraq?

          • Red

            Nyet Comrad Paulsky, but I d agree history has shown the west has not been able to trust the Russians for oh about 80 years

            • richard rawshark

              You really should learn your political history, it was the west who shafted Russia at the end of the second world war and caused the great cold war, not the Russians. I’m not going into it, but merely to say Russia got shafted by the US, as soon as they had the bomb. They used it to get their way in almost everything and Russia at that stage was on our team. It caused a cold war that went on for years, and the west’s propaganda machine I see still claims a few victims who haven’t watched any good doco’s on the second WW.

              They stole all the scientists, V2 project, and reneged on many deals they had agreed too once they had the bomb and no one else did, in fact they even shafted the English they were so cocky..

              Albania was meant to be western they dropped it and let it fall to Enver Hoxha’s communists. My country folk will never forget it.

      • joe90 15.1.2

        Twenty five years ago this week.

      • Sabine 15.1.3

        Paul, this has been in the making since the annexation of Crimea by the Russia and it appears that the Poles invited the US to come and hang out.
        One should remember that the ‘eastern’ countries after the second world war got their fare share of Russian interference and occupation and might not be so happy about Russia going around flexing muscle. They might even fear, that they will be ‘annexed’ and again get disappeared behind the great iron curtain.


        ” The US and Poland are discussing the deployment of American heavy weapons in eastern Europe in response to Russian expansionism and sabre-rattling in the region in what represents a radical break with post-cold war military planning.”


        “Poland and the countries that border Russia are becoming increasingly concerned with Russia’s aggression in the region as it continues to provoke Ukraine and occupy Crimea. Many Baltic countries fear Russia’s provocative behavior will spread to inside their own borders.

        Macierewicz added that the Polish military would “especially” like to evaluate cooperation in the context of hybrid warfare on land and sea and with special forces.

        Russia’s continued attacks on Ukraine have been characterized as hybrid warfare.”

        ” Poland’s president urged US President-elect Donald Trump to keep Washington’s promise to deploy troops on NATO’s eastern flank amid tensions with Russia.

        “Polish-American relations have become an important pillar of the European and transatlantic stability,” Polish President Andrzej Duda said in a letter of congratulations.

        “We are particularly pleased that during this year’s NATO Summit in Warsaw the US decided to increase its military presence in Poland, thereby strengthening the Alliance’s Eastern flank.

        “We sincerely hope that your leadership will open new opportunities for our cooperation based on mutual commitment.””


        “Atlantic Resolve was launched in the immediate aftermath of Russia’s annexation of Crimea, which sparked fears in the Baltic nations that Vladimir Putin was planning a similar land-grab there.

        Under that banner, the US Army in Europe has been conducting training operations since May 2014.”

        Despite the Polish celebrations, clouds hung over the historic moment. As the AP puts it, “there are anxieties that the enhanced security could eventually be undermined by the pro-Kremlin views of President-elect Donald Trump. Meanwhile, Russia appears provoked by the deployment of American troops on its doorstep.”


        “We perceive it as a threat,” President Vladimir Putin’s spokesman Dmitry Peskov said. “These actions threaten our interests, our security. Especially as it concerns a third party building up its military presence near our borders,” Peskov said in a conference call with reporters. “It’s not even a European state.”

        Worries about the permanence of the new U.S. security commitments are rooted in a tragic national history in which Poland has often lost out in deals made by the great powers.

        Poles still feel betrayed by Obama’s “reset” with Russia early on in his administration, which involved abandoning plans for a major U.S. missile defense system in Poland and replacing it with plans for a less ambitious system, still not in place.

        “All recent U.S. presidents have thought there can be a grand bargain with Russia,” said Marcin Zaborowski, a senior associate at Visegrad Insight, an analytic journal on Central Europe. “Trump has a proclivity to make deals, and Central and Eastern Europe have reason to worry about that.”

        Polish Foreign Minister Witold Waszczykowski expressed hope this week that any new effort at reconciliation with Russia “does not happen at our expense.”

    • Anyone who’s “preparing for war with Russia” had better send a hell of a lot more than 4000 soldiers into Poland – a couple of orders of magnitude more. This is about making Poland and the Baltic Republics feel a bit better, nothing more than that (because physically incapable of anything more than that). I guess it does come in handy for lackwit pro-Putin propagandists to squawk about “preparing for WW3” though…

      • Paul 15.2.1

        Your arguments sound like McCarthyism of the post WW2 era.
        Rods under the beds!

        • Red

          Time to get out of basement Paul reality and sun light awaits

        • Psycho Milt

          What, you’re posting stuff about “preparing for war with Russia” and “preparing for WW3” but me pointing out it’s bullshit is “McCarthyism” and “paranoia?” Try googling “arse about face.”

  13. joe90 16

    Mr Trump –

    I am the only one. Trust me. I can build a wall around your homes that nothing can penetrate.

  14. Draco T Bastard 17

    Bird species vanish from UK due to climate change and habitat loss

    Rising temperatures and crop farming mean birds are disappearing from parts of England, says study, while butterflies and dragonflies are faring better

    Two things you don’t want happening to your environment. There’s a reason why people fear swarming locusts and excess insects will have the same effect although over a longer period of time.

    Wonder how much damage NZs farming community is doing to our bird species.

    • Sabine 17.1

      Have a look at the large dairy conversions in the waikato and count the birds.

      there are not many left, cause there are no trees, no shrubs, nothing but baked soil with a few strands of grass.
      you will find flies. lots and lots of flies.

      • Draco T Bastard 17.1.1

        I recall as a child being told how good it was to see the farms. To see the cleared fields.

        But I’ve also been reading Scifi and fantasy for my entire life and in all of them they describe lush green forests as the epitome of a healthy environment. Green fields aren’t and neither are cities.

        IMO, we know in our heart of hearts that farming is destructive.

        This land of ours used to be covered in birds. It’s entire fertility was based upon sea birds flying and shitting from the coast all the way inland carrying the minerals that the sea provided.

        • Clump_AKA Sam

          There are load carrying capacities of land but not all land is commodified, just the land that is valuable to cities and complex cities, the rest is not mentioned so there are limits to how many immigrants New Zealand can accept. Once the load carrying capacity has been reached, conflict increases in warfare and politics proceeded by depopulation.

          It’s possible to find atomised groups of people in all sectors. Such cases do not quarrel with neighbours to conquer or subjugate, only at state level does that become a dominant type of conflict.

          • Draco T Bastard

            The natural fertility cycle dictates the carrying capacity and the lush forests that used to be here were part of that cycle. By cutting them down and replacing them with farms we’ve actually decreased our carrying capacity as the land can no longer handle the pollutants that we’re putting into it.

            • Clump_AKA Sam

              This war on nature or crimes against humanity, call it what ever, does have to do with building a proper land rights system.

  15. joe90 18

    The first President to enter the White House under Senate investigation?.

    Intelligence Committee will investigate possible Russia-Trump links

    The Senate panel will use ‘subpoenas if necessary’ to secure testimony from Obama administration officials as well as Trump’s team, Richard Burr and Mark Warner said.
    Senate Intelligence Chairman Richard Burr (R-N.C.) said late Friday that his committee would investigate possible contacts between Donald Trump’s campaign and Russia, reversing himself one day after telling reporters that the issue would be outside of his panel’s ongoing probe into Moscow’s election-disruption efforts.


    • Red 18.1

      Dont you love the US checks and measures , unfortunatel we don’t see the same in Paul’s Russia

  16. Sabine 19

    oh good grief, please don’t give Mrs. Bennett ideas.

    guy lives for two month in a storage unit.

  17. Penny Bright 20

    Good to see that Martyn Bradbury published my following comment on The Daily Blog.


    PENNY BRIGHT says:
    JANUARY 14, 2017 AT 2:46 PM

    I have already been sought out and approached by senior Grey Power members, who are deeply concerned about the lack of transparency and the proven bribery and corruption associated with the vast spending of public rates and taxes at local and central government on private consultants and contractors.

    My long-standing policy and proven track record on transparency in public spending and ‘whistle-blowing’ against corruption, goes back TEN years.

    Politically, support for transparency (and accountability) in public spending cuts across the entire political spectrum.

    I’ve also been in Kingsland for the last 26 years.

    In my view – anyone who thinks Jacinda Adern is going to sleep walk into becoming the MP for Mt Albert, needs to think again?

    Why would people in Mt Albert waste their vote, voting for someone to become their MP – who is already an MP?

    I’m not an MP.
    (Yet 🙂
    What have Labour / Green members/ supporters got to lose, by strategically voting for proven anti-privatisation / anti-corruption campaigner Penny Bright as the (fiercely) Independent MP for Mt Albert?

    Jacinda and Julie Anne will still be MPs, and the House will have a fiery new Independent MP, who will be able to rattle the Parliamentary cage from the inside, asking the stinking hard questions about corruption that others will not – under Parliamentary privilege.


    In my view, this National Government is very vulnerable on this growing issue of corruption.

    If corruption were to become a major election issue in 2017, in my opinion,
    it would be far easier to achieve a change of Government.

    What better way to help achieve that outcome than for a strategic vote in the Mt Albert by-election for a proven anti-corruption campaigner, in order to make a huge fuss INSIDE the House?

    In my view, this is bigger than what will be best for the Labour and Green parties – it’s what will be best for New Zealand and the New Zealand 99%?

    Penny Bright

    2017 Independent candidate for the Mt Albert by-election.

    • Draco T Bastard 20.1

      I actually think it would be worth voting for you. At this point in the electoral cycle it won’t change much but it would send the message that we’re really pissed off with the corruption and lack of transparency that we’re seeing in both local and national politics.

      • Penny Bright 20.1.1


        Are you in the Mt Albert electorate?

        Would you like a sign on your fence?

        If so – send me a personal
        message on Facebook?


        Penny Bright 🙂

  18. Draco T Bastard 22

    DNA analysis proves Arabs aren’t entirely Arab

    National Geographic’s Genographic Project, launched in 2005, uses science to bring people together where politics have failed.

    Through DNA analysis, the project is answering people’s questions regarding ethnicity, race, and the overall origins of the human population and how we came to populate the Earth.

    The Genographic Project lists a group of reference populations, where the typical national of each country is described according to genetic makeup. These are based on hundreds of DNA samples and advanced DNA analysis. Four Arab countries were part of the reference population list.

    Here are some surprising discoveries on the genetic makeup of these four Arab nationalities.

    The video at the end is a must watch.

    And, no, I don’t like that headline or the focus on Arabia.

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