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Open mike 15/11/2021

Written By: - Date published: 6:00 am, November 15th, 2021 - 178 comments
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178 comments on “Open mike 15/11/2021 ”

  1. Gezza 1

    Happy Monday all. Looks a nice day in Welly

    • RedLogix 1.1

      Good to see evidence of life returning to Porirua Stream. Further up toward Glenside my partner and I have good memories of helping the local bush replanting group on it's streamside project. Just at the area where the old main highway crosses the stream and there is a small side road heading back toward the rail tunnel – we cleared and planted about 500m of steep bank between the road and the stream on the true left from the bridge downstream.

      And another area tackled is further upstream underneath the large flood control embankment. I got to pass through briefly in 2019 and it's quite stunning how successful it's been.

      One of the outcomes is to increase the amount of shading over the stream itself, which lowers water temps and benefits stream life. At least that was the theory.

      • Gezza 1.1.1

        If you mean the streamside restoration project at Stebbings Dam, entering at Churton Park, the community replanting team have done a magnificent job.

        I perhaps broke our first lockdown level 4 (possibly, I’d argue it was still within my local area) to do the streamside walk there & check it out in 2020. Was a brilliant sunny day. One young pre-teen girl on a bike cycled past me on my walk there and back; most people were obeying lockdown rules & staying home.

        All the native harakeke & other flaxes, toetoe, & other native trees, grasses & shrubs are thriving along the stream, which is reportedly full of our diminutive & rarely seen native freshwater fish.

        • RedLogix 1.1.1.1

          Yes – Stebbings Dam. I couldn't remember the name.

          There were two areas, one immediately under the dam and the other on the old highway near the rail tunnel entrance. We worked on them over a period of 2 or 3 winters.

          We would get a contractor in to clear the worst of the old man blackberry, wait a few months, then work over the area to clear the big weeds, poison the re-emerging blackberry and prepare planting patches.

          The seeds were all sourced locally so as we could be sure they were adapted to the area. One of the members – a remarkable lady – had prepared the seedlings the previous year. The first step is to plant pioneer species that would grow quickly and create shelter. Once these were established we could plant a month or two later the slower, longer growing species and used various forms of matting and mulching when it was available to ensure the seedling was both sheltered from wind and sun, but also from being overrun by weeds. Creating tiny, damp micro-climates is essential to these normally forest adapted species surviving.

          The other lesson learned was not to tackle too large an area, it was better to get one area – say 50 m long – done well than open too much up that we couldn't stay on top of. Once planted and watered for the next few weeks, we typically had to go back over it 3-4 times to weed release over the next 18 months.

          Once the pioneer species got away and started shading the weeds the entire system looked after itself.

          That the fish have returned is excellent to hear. They certainly were not to be seen when we were there.

          • Gezza 1.1.1.1.1

            One day just over a year ago, down at my fairly private little Eel Spot, I’d chummed the water to summon Elvira Longfin up the rapids and over for a stick-feed, & altho I’d looked for native fish often in the wonderfully clear Porirua Stream water here at Pookden Manor without success, this particular morning I just happened to look down at the reddish tree roots splayed out into the water, in case Elvira was already lurking underneath the bank – and there, hovering in the shade, was an unmistakeable Redfin Bully !

            First one I’ve ever seen. Man they’re small. Felt like I’d won the lottery ❤️ 👍🏼 🐧

            https://www.doc.govt.nz/nature/native-animals/freshwater-fish/bullies/

  2. Gezza 2

    Farkinell. 😠 NZ’s firearm carnage continues.

    Are we averaging one a day yet? 😕

    https://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/auckland-shooting-woman-critically-injured-in-new-lynn-firearms-incident/7UZDI5JJ5XAVPDYF2STVY4XQCA/

    “26-year-old man has been arrested and charged with unlawful possession of a firearm.

    Police say he is assisting officers with ongoing inquiries and that no one else is being sought in relation to the incident.”

    • Puckish Rogue 2.1

      The government got it all wrong, 100% wrong.

      They went for the easy decision and ignored the real problem.

      Instead of cracking down hard on gangs and hauling the police over the coals over the firearms checking system they forced people all ready following the laws to give up their weapons

      This is a, continued, failure of Jacinda Ardern

      • Gezza 2.1.1

        I respectfully disagree. The way the world is going – good to have semi-autos taken out of general issue & also out of the legit firearms market.

        Agree with you about Labour not cracking down hard enuf on gangs & not visibly having hauled police over the coals over their atrociously failed firearms checking regime.

        Hell, they even had guns stolen from a bloody POLICE STATION during the damn buy back!

        • Puckish Rogue 2.1.1.1

          "good to have semi-autos taken out of general issue & also out of the legit firearms market."

          Why do you think this, just out of curiosity?

          • Gezza 2.1.1.1.1

            Less chance of them getting into the hands of folk (particularly blokes) with huge egos, chips on their shoulder, & poor impulse control, people suffering homicidal psychoses, violent or desperate criminals & hate-filled people like gang members & The Christchurch Mass Shooter.

            If you can’t reduce the risk of gun killings to zero, you can reduce the severity of the impact by taking such high capacity firearms out of easy reach.

            • Puckish Rogue 2.1.1.1.1.1

              'Less chance of them getting into the hands of folk (particularly blokes) with huge egos, chips on their shoulder, & poor impulse control, people suffering homicidal psychoses, violent or desperate criminals & hate-filled people like gang members & The Christchurch Mass Shooter.'

              But it doesn't.

              All it does is make the gangs richer and if anyone believes the gangs main source of weapons was from people buying them legally then I have a bridge to sell you

              Plus in the case of Brenton Tarrant that blame can be laid at the feet of the people not doing their jobs correctly in issuing him a firearms licence

              • Gezza

                Fair enuf. I have no problem at all with agreeing to disagree with you, Puckish, when I am right. As in this case. 😉

              • McFlock

                Easy way to sort out human error with jobs is to remove the job.

                I'm trying to think of the last afternoon a gang in NZ killed 51 people – or even half a dozen people, for that matter.

                Law-abiding firearms owners, on the other hand… seems every decade or two, someone kills a bunch of people in one outing. Not just sprees in public, families as well.

                • Gezza

                  Yep.

                  Neighbours in our first house in Tawa lost their son to the psychotic killer of the Raurimu massacre. They never really got over it. Altho I don’t think he used a semi-auto.

                  https://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/raurimu-20-years-on-the-madman-the-massacre-and-the-memories/2FGFIGPFPXMX3IPPIXD6VCW2NI/

                  • UncookedSelachimorpha

                    They say it was a "single-barreled shotgun", which usually means a single shot shotgun.

                    I've been a regular firearms user for over 30 years, I'm happy to see the back end of semiauto firearms. Doesn't significantly impact 90% of legitimate firearm use. And they do appeal psychologically to the handful of f-wits who would like to cause mayhem.

                    One thing I notice when the police show firearms confiscated from gangs – a lot of the guns are rubbish – held together with tape and rough bits of pipe and wood. But still dangerous unfortunately.

                • Puckish Rogue

                  'seems every decade or two, someone kills a bunch of people in one outing. '

                  How does murder by firearm actually stack up:

                  https://www.health.govt.nz/our-work/populations/maori-health/tatau-kahukura-maori-health-statistics/nga-mana-hauora-tutohu-health-status-indicators/major-causes-death

                  Lung cancers pretty high, got any ideas of what could be causing that and if that could be stopped

                  Heart disease is up there, diabetes, motor vehicle accidents, jeepers theres a lot

                  I don't see the government banning high fat fast foods and alcohol, cigarettes still legal, could limit the speed limit…

                  Know what the average rate of murder by firearm is: 7 per year

                  https://www.police.govt.nz/sites/default/files/publications/25-nov-2018-ir-01-18-17024.pdf

                  How does that stack up with total homicides over the same period:

                  https://www.police.govt.nz/about-us/publication/homicide-victims-report-2018-and-historic-nz-murder-rate-report-1926-2017

                  'Between 2007 – 2017 there were 737 people killed by homicide (ie murder and manslaughter offences

                  Firearms are not the problem, the enforcement of laws were the problem and it got all ignored and instead we got bans and buy backs which everyone complied with and went so well:

                  https://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/mongrel-mob-leader-says-members-wont-hand-in-their-guns/DY3UKD2J3XFQJAYXOJXMWAE27M/

                  https://www.rnz.co.nz/news/national/438377/rise-in-gun-crime-despite-government-clampdown-after-terror-attack

                  • McFlock

                    Mate, one afternoon a couple of years ago skewed our 5-year murder rates in multiple age brackets, so excuse me if I don't have a problem with the govt plucking that particular low-hanging fruit.

                    • Puckish Rogue

                      No I don't excuse you at all

                      51 died in a massacre yet that same year approximately 6-7 times the amount of people died on our roads

                      Don't you think safer roads, lower speed limits etc etc would save more lives?

                      https://www.healthnavigator.org.nz/health-a-z/c/coronary-artery-disease/

                      'Every 90 minutes a New Zealander dies from heart disease. Many of these deaths are premature (the person dies too early) and could be prevented.'

                      'You can reduce your risk by being smokefree and physically active, eating heart healthy foods, keeping to a healthy weight and having your blood pressure and cholesterol checked.'

                      What could the government do about this?

                      To hard basket?

                      The gun buy back and new laws have not made us safer but they have allowed people like you to think we are.

                    • Tricledrown []

                      The govt haven't finished gun law reform John Banks regretted not changing gun laws back in 1992 when David Grey went on the rampage with a cache of automatic guns.

                      Every gun will have to be registered just like in Australia ( and was formerly the case in NZ)where they have cut gun violence by making it tougher.Most guns used by criminals are stolen untraceable unreported by owners.

                      Australia enacted these laws much earlier than and have much lower gun violence rates than NZ.given we have one of the highest gun ownership rates in the World the potential for stolen arms to fall into criminal hands and mentally unstable people is huge.Especially the laid back attitude of many gun owners especially rural gun owners who only make up a small percentage of gun owners but where 40% of guns are stolen from.

                      Guns are made to kill rules and regulations are needed.

                      Trying to shift the blame elsewhere is completely irresponsible.

                    • McFlock

                      So you've moved on from gangs. Good for you.

                      How many millions/billions does the govt spend every year on road safety? Health interventions for all of the conditions you mention?

                      Govt allocated a billion a year in new road safety spending alone in 2019. In addition to the usual programme. The one-off $120mil buyback is barely a twitch icompared to that, and the road safety thing doesn't even include things like the cost of drink-driving checkpoints or ads.

                    • In Vino

                      (Reply intended for PR, but had to piggyback on McFlock's button)

                      Regarding the high road toll, that is largely on the previous National Government. It lowered the alcohol limit (low-cost, just a few strokes of the pen) to pretend it was doing something – then, to pretend it was a good manager of the economy, it made a big song and dance about balancing the books.

                      In balancing the books, it underfunded the Police to the point that the police had to set priorities, and in doing so felt forced to quietly scrap all alcohol checkpoints.

                      Note that the National Govt did not directly instruct the Police to do this, they just gave the so little bulk-funding that the police found themselves in an impossible position.

                      A year or two later, stats came out showing that NZ was almost unique in the world for having lowered the alcohol limit, but subsequently increased the rate of alcohol-related accidents and deaths.

                      The research had quite clearly shown (both in France and New South Wales) that deaths and accidents had declined after increased numbers of alcohol checkpoints.

                      The only useful thing that the National Government did with the road toll was to prove that lowering alcohol limits did nothing to reduce deaths.

                      Only enforcement through many more alcohol checkpoints does that. Since then I have seen a few checkpoints, but not been checked myself, and I do quite a bit of driving.

                      We have also proven that silly TV ads saying 'You will be caught' are also totally ineffective. The only effective way to lower drink driving is to permanently set up lots of checkpoints so that people actually know they will be caught, – something this Labour Govt., has yet to do.

                    • mikesh

                      51 died in a massacre yet that same year approximately 6-7 times the amount of people died on our roads

                      So what. We should prevent both modes of dying if we can. To say that 300 road deaths excuses acceptance of 51 deaths by shooting is plainly ridiculous.

      • Patricia Bremner 2.1.2

        Dutton keeps sending the gang members back here no matter how tenuous the citizenship. They are cracking down over there as world wide these types are taking advantage. If you believe that Jacinda Ardern has caused this in 4 years "You're Dreaming"

      • Tricledrown 2.1.3

        PR most of the guns that end up in criminal hands are stolen from lax legal firearms owners 40% from rural gun owners who claim they need to leave their guns lying around ready to use.

        P has upped the anti for gangs and p users ,the govt has increased the number of police targeting gangs and increased the search and seize markedly.But P use in the community has increased exponentially. The cost of illegal drugs in NZ is amongst the highest in the World.P addicts need the drug constantly and it costs big money so they tick up steal prostitute etc.

        The P addicts run up huge debts with dealer's / gangs with guns so users are carrying guns as well.So Until we decriminalised all drugs make those drugs available as a prescription taking the money away from gangs and the desperation away from users its only going to get worse.The tougher the laws against drugs are the price goes up making it more profitable for gangs who don't give a shit about being locked up in Prison.Thats Corporate headquarters.

        If anyone should know a Switched on corrections officer should know.

        Continuing down the simplistic Road of more policing filling up more prisons is a failing policy. Prisoners come out of prison sooner or later Prisons are the universities of Crime and Criminal networking. PR blinkered by your job.

        • Puckish Rogue 2.1.3.1

          'PR most of the guns that end up in criminal hands are stolen from lax legal firearms owners 40% from rural gun owners who claim they need to leave their guns lying around ready to use.'

          Some are, sure but most come the same way drugs come in, via boats due to the increased value of guns

          'P has upped the anti for gangs and p users ,the govt has increased the number of police targeting gangs and increased the search and seize markedly.'

          'The P addicts run up huge debts with dealer's / gangs with guns so users are carrying guns as well.'

          'So Until we decriminalised all drugs make those drugs available as a prescription taking the money away from gangs and the desperation away from users its only going to get worse.'

          Thats another tool in the tool box to be used

          'The tougher the laws against drugs are the price goes up making it more profitable for gangs who don't give a shit about being locked up in Prison.'

          'Thats Corporate headquarters.'

          I'm well aware of supply and demand, which is why gangs are making more money off guns

          'If anyone should know a Switched on corrections officer should know.'

          Pointless statement but ok

          'Continuing down the simplistic Road of more policing filling up more prisons is a failing policy. Prisoners come out of prison sooner or later Prisons are the universities of Crime and Criminal networking. PR blinkered by your job.'

          Ok lets not send anyone to prison lest they come out worse

          But seriously yes they come out sooner or later but while they are in they commit less crimes outside so really the more time they spend in prison the better, for the community.

          Yet its this government proudly stating that less people are going to jail and getting rid of the three strikes law

          Prison terms should be longer, early release should be something that is earned not a given and all Correction Officers should have penal rates reinstated and only work four shifts per week, not counting call backs (thats just a personal viewpoint)

          Now I would have agreed with you if you'd said much more effort, and money, should be put into the rehabilitation side of things which is where the system is lacking

          Also the guy in prison learned his ways from family, whanau, wider community whatever so what happens when he leaves?

          Straight back to where he came from

          But heres the little secret everyone knows but won't say out loud, are you ready?

          The crim won't change until the crim wants to change.

          You can give the crim all the money in the world, all the training, all the rehabilitation you want and it won't make a blind bit of difference until the crim wants to stop being a crim

          Sure giving an illiterate crim the ability to read and write is all well and good but then what?

          Is it easier to work a 40 hour a week job, weekends, late nights etc or knock over someones house, deal a bit drugs here and there, steal a car etc etc

          • Tricledrown 2.1.3.1.1

            I am not saying send no one to prison you are twisting my words.

            I said it first crims don't change read my post the secret read carefully is to prevent them becoming crims in the first place.

            Fix the family good stable housing direct involvement in that family having live social workers that keep alcohol and drugs out of the house.Canterbury University ran such a program for nearly 10 yrs the National govt canned the program even though it had 72 % success rate .I lobbied Judith Collins personally she promised she would look into it and get back no reply ever.Then it was canned.

            The existing system is a failure prevention is better but doesn't have an immediate impact it takes years and lots of resources that no govt wants to spend because of the election cycles.

            I had worked voluntarily in front line social work trying to help street kids for nearly 30 years.

            Most of those children ended up in gangs because that was the only place they felt wanted.

            Going to a job and doing crime is a very poor simplistic equivalence.

            Those street kids didn't have anything like a stable home to feel safe have routines love or parents feeding and sending them to the same school let alone school every day.

            So your solution is not to fix the problem before but just to keep building more very expensive prisons that cost a $100,000 plus a year to house prisoner plus the huge cost of policing and legal work on top of that cost.

            Your solution has been tried for 50 years and all that's happened is gangs have become more entrenched and locking them up forever is the answer.

            Prison is gang headquarters as a Prison officer you should know this.

            Gang members see this as obtaining a degree in crime the longer you serve and the more serious the crime the higher you rise up the hierarchy. Gang leaders can pull leavers from inside Prison easier than if they are outside.

            They are doing this right under the nose of Prison officers who they can out smart out manipulate most of the time.As they have all day and all night to outscheme any controls put in place.

            • Puckish Rogue 2.1.3.1.1.1

              'Fix the family good stable housing direct involvement in that family having live social workers that keep alcohol and drugs out of the house. Canterbury University ran such a program for nearly 10 yrs the National govt canned the program even though it had 72 % success rate .I lobbied Judith Collins personally she promised she would look into it and get back no reply ever. Then it was canned.'

              This sounds like a good idea, must be a reason it hasn't been reimplemented

              'The existing system is a failure prevention is better but doesn't have an immediate impact it takes years and lots of resources that no govt wants to spend because of the election cycles.'

              I agree.

              'So your solution is not to fix the problem before but just to keep building more very expensive prisons that cost a $100,000 plus a year to house prisoner plus the huge cost of policing and legal work on top of that cost.'

              Incorrect.

              I want them locked up longer and I want more resources put into rehabilitation plus I want more work done before they get to prison.

              Plus I want maximum security hospitals, staffed by doctors, nurses, psychs etc and Corrections Officers to treat those with mental health and addictions.

              None of which has been done.

              'Prison is gang headquarters as a Prison officer you should know this.'

              My rank is Corrections Officer, my job contract states Corrections Officer. I am not Prison Officer, I am not a Prison Guard, I am a Corrections Officer. It may not mean much to you but it means quite a bit to me.

              'They are doing this right under the nose of Prison officers who they can out smart out manipulate most of the time. As they have all day and all night to out scheme any controls put in place.'

              Do not forget that our hands are mostly tied as well. We could easily solve most of the issues in prisons very quickly if allowed but we're not.

              Its not that we can't, its that we're not allowed.

              • RedLogix

                This is perhaps the most useful conversation I've seen in ages. You both have real world experience (that I don't) and while you have differing experiences and ideas – I want to hear more from you both.

                • Puckish Rogue

                  I only comment on my days off, I certainly won't post this on a work computer smiley

                  • RedLogix

                    I never use work computers for this. But otherwise I was hoping to encourage, not create expectation.

                    • Puckish Rogue

                      What's interesting is that (I think) people on here generally agree more on the problem of gangs than disagree and even in how to deal with them there's more agreement than disagreement

                      Which gives me the slightest bit of encouragement that maybe, someday, a government might make it a priority rather than paying lip service (looking at you National)

              • Tricledrown

                Corrections officer is just a corporate name to placate the failure of the prison system.

                Your wish list is going to be fulfilled by St Jude who cut police funding so John Key could find enough money for a we election bribe that gave somebody $35 a week on the average wage. The rich got $100's and $1,000's the poor got a few crumbs a corrections officer at the time got maybe $28 a week.

                St Jude was sacked by John Key because she was incompetent .

                As a corrections officer your not in the monied league of a National supporter .Its not a very well paid job.

                My brother left after 10 yrs of prison service got a job double the pay and never looked back.

                He said what's the point of putting yourself through all that stress for next to nothing. He was brought in to run a rehab program but the National govt canned it. He stayed on for far to long it cost him his marriage.Since he left he has become a multi millionaire and has never been so happy.

                I wouldn't work for so low wages in any job let alone a high stress job like a corrections officer.

                No govt is going to fully fund rehab programs. No body wants to pay the rate of taxes needed to be raised to run a full prevention and rehab program.

              • left for dead

                @PR…. thanks for your service.

      • bwaghorn 2.1.4

        Na they didn't go far enough ,every gun should be registered to its owner, if they had kept that system of old there would be traceability.

        Cracking down on the gangs won't hurt aswell mind you.

        • Puckish Rogue 2.1.4.1

          NZ actually had a pretty good balance of gun laws imho then the police screwed up and 51 people paid the price

          I was seriously thinking of buying one of these beauties:

          https://www.browning.com/products/firearms/rifles/bar.html

          Now I can't and no ones actually safer now then when they were before

          Should have made MSSAs (which is a great designation) more restrictive but to out right ban all semi-auto rifles was just bad knee jerk policy because "something had to be done"

          Yet anyone heard anything about the police vetting cock up which caused this?

          • bwaghorn 2.1.4.1.1

            Learn to shoot straight pucky and all you need is a bolt action!!

            Imagine if that scum from Christchurch had to stop to put 4 mor bullets in his bolt action, one of those Braves that ran towards him would have dragged his sorry arse down .

            • Puckish Rogue 2.1.4.1.1.1

              I can shoot very well thanks but thats a real nice piece of engineering

              Now imagine if he'd used some of the massive amount of money he had and bought a semi-auto on the black market

              Or

              being that he used 6 weapons, 4 of which are still legal, imagine if instead of the two semi-auto rifles he had two lever actions like this:

              https://www.guncity.com/357-uberti-1873-competition-lever-action-367218

              Thats 22 rounds of .357 before he switches to his other weapons which were a semi auto and pump shot gun, another lever action (same calibre and make as above actually though not sure if same model) and a bolt action

              Still feel safe?

            • left for dead 2.1.4.1.1.2

              @bwaghorn,this trope about semi-autos of yours,clearly you don't shoot because when I'm out pest eradicating,If my first shot is not a clean kill,for the sack of humanity I would fire a second or even a third ,making sure the creature is dead and not dying down a burrow too die a slow and cruel death,it might surprise the hoi polloi,that some of our pests a small and move about,making it a challenge,but a job needing doing.

              • bwaghorn

                I've shot about 50 deer ,12 pigs ,alot of rabbits and possums. Semis are ok for small game I guess but you can work a bolt or lever action pretty quick if needled, go read the books ok the old time cullers using open sight 303 lee Enfields. They seemed to cope.

                • left for dead

                  Thanks for your insight,but you may want too address the need to make sure you despatch small game/pests.For my rec I use open sights on lever and pump,being a lefty hard finding and then paying for good bolt action .

          • McFlock 2.1.4.1.2

            Oh, please. One firearms officer who literally phoned in the job should not be the only point of failure between a fuckwit and his ability to murder 51 people. There were something like 20 years where law-abiding firearms owners could have pointed out the hole in being able to buy MSSA magazines without an MSSA license. Where the fuck were they – and what did they think would happen?

            Now there are two points of failure: getting a license, and getting a semiauto license.

            • Puckish Rogue 2.1.4.1.2.1

              Heard anything about the fuck up from the police?

              Nope, me neither.

              Anything to do with them completely agreeing with this in the hope the media won't point the finger at them?

              Surely the police wouldn't do anything like that.

              • McFlock

                Let's say fucko wouldn't have had access to firearms if one cop had managed to do everything properly – doesn't that just mean that the cops couldn't follow those regulations, so the safest course of action was to make the regs more simple and ban semi-autos?

    • Jimmy 2.2

      Yes the number of firearm incidents at the moment is very high. Don't know if this one is gang related, but I do agree with Puckish Rogue, Govt needs to get tougher on gangs.

      • vto 2.2.1

        It isn't the gangs which are the problem, it is the underlying political settings over the last decades which led to the rise of gangs which are the problem.

        • Sabine 2.2.1.1

          yeah, and non of the governments of the previous years / decades did anything, so when can a government start doing something?

          The gangs are a problem. They are a very big problem.

        • Puckish Rogue 2.2.1.2

          You're half right: 'it is the underlying political settings over the last decades which led to the rise of gangs which are the problem'

          Unfortunately gangs are the problem right now, hopefully some government in the future will make changes to society so gang membership becomes less enticing (thats interesting I've just seen some pigs flying across my backyard…) but until that time gang membership will continue to rise

          First things first is to crackdown on gangs and before anyone warms up their keyboard the answer is NO, governments haven't gone hard or cracked down on gangs, people might like to say hard lines have been taken against gangs but in reality there hasn't been a proper crackdown or at least not for decades

          The very first thing that needs to be done is to designate these gangs criminal organisations and, again before anyone asks the question, start with the biggest, most obvious (the Mob and Black Power) and work your way down the chain

          • RedLogix 2.2.1.2.1

            In WA we have an incredibly popular Labour state govt. So popular that in the last election they wound up with 53 out of 59 seats – eat that Jacinda. This govt is passing new legislation intended to put the gangs out of business. Everyone I've spoken to fully supports this.

            Most ordinary people, especially working people who are the most exposed to them, absolutely loath gangs. (I had one process operator speak to me about them with so much venom, he came and apologised later.) They perceive elitist pandering to them as just one more betrayal.

            Every intelligent person accepts that gangs don't appear from a vacuum – there are of course root causes that we can and should think about. But right now the symptom needs dealing with. The more govts pander to them, the more success and mana they gain, the more attractive they become, the more momentum they gain – the more they grow. It's a positive feedback loop that has to be broken before root causes can be addressed.

            • Puckish Rogue 2.2.1.2.1.1

              Yes agreed. The money needs to be cut off, no more government contracts, no more housing, no more benefits, no nothing while they're members of the gang

              Even if they're driven underground and stop wearing their regalia in public its a start

              The main issue I have with these talking heads is they don't live next door to the gangs (unless its the top leaders in which case they'll be very good neighbours) they're removed from every day interactions

              • Gezza

                I videoed Mongrel Mob members sharing a joint in the No Smoking front of Welly Hospital from the 7th floor liftwell full length window. They’re not wearing their patches. They don’t need to. Hanging together as a group all wearing trademark Red gear they transmit their gang membership & affiliations effortlessly.

                • Puckish Rogue

                  No they don't need to but it cuts down on advertising, think of it as another tool in the toolbox to use against them

                  • Gezza

                    That’s my point, Puckish. In the communities they live in & control or terrorise, their colour IS their advertising. The patches are just their Dress Uniform. Everybody knows which gang they belong to.

                    Red:.Mongies. Don’t go there wearing Blue.
                    Blue: Black Power. Don’t go there wearing Red.

              • RedLogix

                The main issue I have with these talking heads is they don't live next door to the gangs (unless its the top leaders in which case they'll be very good neighbours) they're removed from every day interactions

                Yup. My daughter and partner are both working courier drivers in a provincial area. They get to see glimpses of all sorts of things gang related. It's been an education for her.

                I tend not to think of the talking heads and elites as necessarily bad people, just insulated from the realities on the ground. This happens in all organisations – the formal chain of authority always dilutes and sanitises the message as it filters upward. My father who worked as an accountant much of his life once told me that he'd learn more from a weekly walk around the factory than all the reports that came over his desk put together.

                • Puckish Rogue

                  I always wondered how lenient judges would be if some of the people they failed to incarcerate moved in next door

                  • Tricledrown

                    How long do you lock the gangs up for PR.

                    They come out of Prison more hardened more educated in how get away with Crime forging huge Networks of fellow criminals.

                    The best way to break down gangs is to take away their income as Portugal drug related crime has reduced by huge amounts.

                    Drug related murders down from 95 a year to 4 a year.

                    I'm not suggesting we go soft on gangs, Continuing down the existing ways it's only going to get worse. No politician who says we are getting tough on Crime has ever succeeded in achieving any change from Muldoon to who ever.

                    • Puckish Rogue

                      I'm saying that going hard on gangs (and I don't believe any government has gone hard on gangs by the way) is the one and only way but its another needed tool to break down the gangs

                      Yes take away their income, absolutely but more tools are needed is what I'm saying

                      Stopping giving official legitimacy to gangs is another tool

                      Banning gang patches is another tool

                      Banning (if possible) gang advertising on social media is another tool

                      Taking away big ticket items if they can't prove how they got them

                      By themselves none of these will work but you keep adding to the tools, you keep harassing the gangs and taking away their money, taking away their legitimacy, taking away their notoriety

                      Eventually it'll get to the point where, for some of them, its just not worth it

                      There'll always be gangs and gang members but it doesn't mean we have to learn to live with them as this government seems to want us to do

                • left for dead

                  Oh please,put suits on them and they will blend in with the other crocks,maybe not so obvious here,world wide they kill and rob all the same and with more alacrity.

              • Maurice

                Perhaps the Govt could prohibit gang members leaving home except under very stringent control … except for going to super markets?

                I mean to say they are doing that for people not participating in vaxecution!

              • weka

                The money needs to be cut off, no more government contracts, no more housing, no more benefits, no nothing while they're members of the gang

                Then what happens? How will they eat, where will they live? As the pressure on them increases, who will they take that out on?

                I'm not suggesting doing nothing, but if people put up suggestions there needs to be a plan for the whole thing. Cracking down is easy, dealing with what comes next is more important.

                I suspect your suggestion is ideological rather than strategic.

                • Puckish Rogue

                  'I suspect your suggestion is ideological rather than strategic'

                  You suggest wrong.

                  You have to make it uncomfortable for them otherwise whats the rational for them to change?

                  'How will they eat, where will they live?'

                  Get a job like anyone else (plenty of them do)

                  'As the pressure on them increases, who will they take that out on?'

                  Which is blackmail anyway you look at it but again all they have to do is remove the patch and leave the gang

                  • weka

                    sounds ideological to me. Nothing wrong with that, it just needs to be acknowledged, and the ideas run through the real world.

                    We have a permanent unemployment rate, so the idea that anyone can get a job any time is false. And gang members will obviously face additional challenges in getting jobs.

                    It's not blackmail, it's empathy for victims and not wanting to increase their problems.

                    You have to make it uncomfortable for them otherwise whats the rational for them to change?

                    How is this no ideological? Right = stick, left = carrot.

            • Gezza 2.2.1.2.1.2

              Absolutely. The problem Kiwiland faces is the biggest gangs are predominantly of Māori membership. There wouldn’t be one whanau in the country thay doesn’t have family members who are in the gangs proper, are prospects, or are associates.

              Getting Māoridom onside with a crackdown is going to be very hard work because of whanaungatanga, which the gangs ruthlessly exploit, of course, but which is a very real & really strong bond of family connection & whanau/marae/hapu/iwi support to offending (and offended) gang members.

              With Pākehā, a ruthless bad apple is likely to be rejected by their family unless & until they change their ways.

              With Māori, OTOH, you take on the gangs, you take on the iwi.

              How we bridge this cultural divide to reduce the gang problem, I’m not sure.

              • Puckish Rogue

                Which is interesting because at the start the gangs went out of their way to reject their culture, wanted nothing to do with it

                Damn shame really

              • RedLogix

                How we bridge this cultural divide to reduce the gang problem, I’m not sure.

                I don't either. Because gangs and ethnicity have become so entangled in NZ the kind of path taken by the WA govt isn't so easily taken. But one thing I want to see is the iwi leadership stand up and firmly, repeatedly repudiate the gangs and everything to do with them.

                • Gezza

                  Yup. But the blighters won’t.
                  And pollies like Marama Davidson & Te Pāti Māori will kick up a stink & play the race card & 150 years of colonial oppression rather than deal with what the gang problem has morphed into – preying on their own.

                  Labour’s Māori Caucus will be notably equally reluctant to alienate themselves from Māori voters & iwi leaders too. Can’t think of a single member with the gonads to stand up and insist they HAVE to do something about the gangs & to get out there & get Māori behind them.

                  Simon Bridges might actually be the best at this – altho I think few Māori regard him as Māori.

                  • Puckish Rogue

                    I really don't like using the "I know people and they say" etc argument but in this case the only Maori I've met that weren't anti gangs were in gangs themselves

                    • Gezza

                      Well, if they’re a representative sample of Māoridom at large, that’s a hopeful sign. But it makes it even odder that Māori political leaders very clearly never want to be seen to attack or criticise the gangs, for some reason.

                    • Puckish Rogue

                      I genuinely believe it is.

                      Most of my working life has been military, labouring and now Corrections so a reasonable cross section I'd have thought

                • Tricledrown

                  They do but once somebody joins a gangs it's extremely hard to change their thinking many many studies have shown that if a new member is involved in a gang for as little as 3 month's the chance of that person leaving is near Zero.

                  Why do people join gangs,poverty family violence and sexual abuse,family alcohol abuse the biggest of the drug related reasons ,heavy drug use etc.intinerant and unaffordable housing ,itinerant education.longterm unemployment.The 1987 Ropa report proved all of the above.since then none of the recommendations have been followed through.instead we have the US style of corporate corrections where the corporations profit from growing prison populations.

                  None of the above problems have been anywhere near solved or even attempted to be solved since the mid 1970's.

                  The ambulance at the bottom of the cliff ie lockemup and throw away the Key is

                  None of thes

                  • RedLogix

                    I know – if any of this was easy we'd have done it by now. One of the reasons why solutions keep eluding us is that binary thinking doesn't apply here.

                    We all know that locking them up is only a short-term solution that probably makes matters worse in the long-term. Punishment alone merely compounds the root causes.

                    We also know that ignoring the gangs and hoping to 'social welfare' them away doesn't work either. Gangs offer more power and status to young men than any other path possible.

                    If there is a solution it involves both individual and collective responsibility working in synergy. That would take a great deal of honesty and political courage to openly address – but for the moment what I'm seeing is too many players who have an interest in the problem not being solved.

                    • Puckish Rogue

                      'but for the moment what I'm seeing is too many players who have an interest in the problem not being solved.'

                      I think thats a lot of the issue

          • Blazer 2.2.1.2.2

            'First things first is to crackdown on white collar criminals and before anyone warms up their keyboard the answer is NO, governments haven't gone hard or cracked down on white collar criminals, people might like to say hard lines have been taken against white collar criminals but in reality there hasn't been a proper crackdown or at least not for decades'sad

          • Tricledrown 2.2.1.2.3

            So PR have you any proof of this approach working in any other jurisdiction.We would need a cop on every corner in the country.

            Massive goals and never let them out.

            That's just a low paid govt paid low ranking prison officers wet dream.

            When you can't keep drugs or violence our of prisons your going to need a regime like Sadam Hussein or the CCP to get rid of gangs.

        • Foreign Waka 2.2.1.3

          This is what you get if you leave a political vacuum, not filled by policy but by appeasement. It will get worse as the gangs have now plenty of help from their Aussie cousins who will give them some hints and tips how to do really bring society to its knees.

          We are slowly becoming little Brazil. A case of cooking the frog slowly.

        • Gypsy 2.2.1.4

          Gangs have existed for decades, but the escalation in violence is comparatively recent.

        • Anker 2.2.1.5

          I guess I see it as being like someone who is obese and gets diabetes, heart disease etc. Its all well and good saying "the settings need to change, we need to have minimal junk food outlets, surgery drinks etc. All worthy of course and need to be done, But meanwhile the horse has bolted for the obese person who now has multiple health problems.

          Sometimes it is important to treat the symptom. I read an article today about a guy in Auckland who had to sell his house a move because of anti social, criminalbehavior by his neighbors who were Kainga Ora tennants. I thought of Sword Fish who raised a similar issue here regarding his elderly parents being intimated by other anti social tenants. I think it is well and good to think about the root causes of anti social behaviour, but most of us would be going spare if we had such neighbours.

          I don't know what the solutions are, but interested to here a diverse range of views in these discussions. Although I don't agree with it, no wonder Australia want to deport their criminals back here.

          • Puckish Rogue 2.2.1.5.1

            'But meanwhile the horse has bolted for the obese person who now has multiple health problems.'

            Sure ok well then lets subsidise bariatric surgery, meal plans and a gym membership then

            Cost now versus bigger cost later and lives saved

            • Anker 2.2.1.5.1.1

              I think we are in agreement PR. We need to do something about the gangs now.

              Trying to fix the "causes" which are likely hugely complex will not alleviate the problems with the guys who are signed up and committing all sorts of mayham, messing with other peoples lives.

              • Puckish Rogue

                I'm a big believer in spending more now to spend less later.

                Is Plunket still a thing?

                More social workers (less management)

                Basically pumping more resources into services like that would certainly pay dividends down the road later

                • Molly

                  Is Plunket still a thing?

                  Might be, but when I used it quarter of a century ago (gasp!) my experience was a not particularly helpful tick box exercise. Has anyone else used it recently?

                  • Puckish Rogue

                    Thats a shame because on the tick list of keeping people away from prison (aka not committing crimes) Plunkets right up there

                    I would certainly like to see a holistic? (not sure if thats the correct term) where a group look after high risk kids, ones who stay with the mothers (removing kids and taking them into care is another story)

                    Basically making sure the kid gets what the kid needs when the kid needs it

                    Basic cooking, cleaning and child raising courses if needed

                    Budgeting advice

                    Medical check ups are adhered to

                    That kind of thing. It'd be expensive but would save money down the line and, might, break some cycles of abuse

                    • Cricklewood

                      From my limited experience of prisoners (Rimutaka) the lack of literacy was startling.

                      So for me one of the longer term fixes is getting kids in school and educated by any and all means necessary.

                      Charter schools, Special Character schools, Schools that are 1 teacher to 5 students, free transport to school, free food etc.

                      Helluva lot cheaper to spend up front on children.

                    • Puckish Rogue

                      To Cricklewood.

                      Absolutely agree 100%

                • Janet

                  Interesting that you bring up plunket. We are involved with a 16 yr old who spent some years making money out of the distribution of drugs in WA, most weekends earning $1000s! Recently he was sent by his family there to his family here to start to learn to live a normal life. He spends most of his time buried in his room on a computer at night and asleep through the day. He is not interested in training for a job, doing a job or even helping much about the place because it does not reward him the same ! Is this how many get streamed into gangs ? Do we cut his bread and bed ?

                  • Puckish Rogue

                    Yeah thats tough, I don't envy you at all

                    Get up at a time you don't want, go to a place of work you don't want to go, work where you don't want to work and do it all over again 5 days a week

                    or

                    make more money and spend less time dealing drugs

                • Tricledrown

                  Well for once I agree with your sentiment but which govt is more likely to put something like that in place.

                  • Puckish Rogue

                    None.

                    National don't think money should be spent on crims

                    Labour don't like Corrections so don't want to spend money on them

                    The Greens don't think there should be prisons so don't want to spend money on them

                    Act probably all of the above

        • Tricledrown 2.2.1.6

          The last govt cut police numbers by 20% by not increasing numbers as the population increased and a massive P epidemic which has only got worse.

          Remember one of John Keys mains promises he said he was going to get rid of the P surge at any cost.

          It was nothing more than an empty feel good promise.

          Gun crime has escalated as a direct result then add in the 501's who have corporatism gangs franchising International crime organisations in NZ.

          The 501's have upped the anti by making guns virtually mandatory for franchisees.

          These internationally connected crime gangs have learned how to maximise their growth.By getting their members addicted to drugs that are very hard to kick the habit.NZ's high Street prices make NZ a prime target. We can't even stop a few deranged protesters let alone the Drug epidemic,and the growth of gangs.

      • Peter 2.2.2

        What new laws should be introduced for that?

        • Puckish Rogue 2.2.2.1

          Designate gangs as illegal and membership of gangs illegal would be a good start

          • Pete 2.2.2.1.1

            How would you 'designate' gangs? Mention them by name?

            Would you say e.g. it is illegal to belong to the 'Mongrel Mob'? Take the right off people to call themselves some particular name?

            What if they then change their name to the "Golf Mob"?

            If having membership of a 'gang' is illegal what would you have as a definition of a gang?

            I'm not rubbishing the sentiment, I'm trying to think of practicalities.

            • RosieLee 2.2.2.1.1.1

              Like, Rotary, The Chamber of Commerce, Lodge, etc, etc.

            • Puckish Rogue 2.2.2.1.1.2

              Never said it would be easy (not trying to be flippant) but I'm assuming someone with greater knowledge of the laws could get advice from police, Greg Newbold etc to work it out

              Mind you the palaver over trying to ban gang patches makes you realise it'll never happen

              • Pete

                Gezza said, (above) "They’re not wearing their patches. They don’t need to. Hanging together as a group all wearing trademark Red gear they transmit their gang membership & affiliations effortlessly."

                Ban people from wearing patches? From wearing red?

                There are laws to deal with crimes. There are laws about unlawful assembly. There are rules about peaceful assembly. Knowledgeable, experienced people would have a most difficult task wording things too achieve what is desired.

                You appreciate the task is difficult. Some think the law should simply be "The Mongrel Mob, Black Power, Headhunters, etc. are illegal."

                https://www.legislation.govt.nz/act/public/1961/0043/latest/DLM328559.html

                https://communitylaw.org.nz/community-law-manual/chapter-4-activism/protesting-and-organising-fundamental-rights/

                • Tiger Mountain

                  “Get Tough on crime!!”, “working for the clampdown!!”, read it and weep–still.

                  Jeez, even Labour’s big Norman Kirk campaigned on “taking the bikes off the bikies” (as they were then called), not many if any were ever taken, as per Crusher Collins mood swing on “boy racers”.

                  No politician has tamed gangs & dealers for good, not even the psychopathic Philippines leader Mr Duterte who has actually ordered thousands of summary executions during his time in office.

                  Roger and Ruth swung a wrecking ball through this country–50% of the population now own just 2% of the wealth–get used to the effects of that and the still unresolved matters arising from post colonial fall out.
                  https://teara.govt.nz/en/map/36362/maori-land-loss-north-island

                  Sure some like the bravado and gangster chic of dealing, fencing, riding, intimidating and partying, but it is not a great career for the children of neo liberalism in what should be a land of plenty.

                  • Gezza

                    It's become an iwi (of sorts) for some gang whanau now.

                    Popa & Nani are long term gang members, mum & dad are (so far) life-long gang members, their rangatahi are all or nearly all members, prospects, or just affiliates.

                    Agree that Rogernomics (then Ruthenasia) ripped the guts out of rural Māori communities. Where I come from (Taranaki) scores of Māori lived generally happy & satisfying marae-based working lives emoloyed in the myriad small local freezing works & dairy products companies based in the rural towns that circle that ataahua Maunga.

                    Freezing works & dairy factory work (becos collective & unionised) was well-paid, & Māori were able to stay in their hapu's nga rohe, get plenty of kai moana, & keep their collective & cooperative way of life ticking over quite well. Plus, transpor & other needs were simpler & cheaper.

                    Rogernomics/Ruthenasia gutted those industries, wrecking the traditional relationships & lifestyle, forcing migrations to the cities and accelerating gang growth in the urban conglomerations as well as the local towns cos poverty, welfare dependence, idle hands of young people.

                    Will take some time, but I believe that situation can be turned around by a government of smart Pākehā folk working together with educated & hands-on Māori successful entrepreneurs, professionals & dependable MPs & Cabinet Ministers.

                  • Gezza

                    It's become an iwi (of sorts) for some gang whanau now.

                    Popa & Nani are long term gang members, mum & dad are (so far) life-long gang members, their rangatahi are all or nearly all members, prospects, or just affiliates.

                    Agree that Rogernomics (then Ruthenasia) ripped the guts out of rural Māori communities. Where I come from (Taranaki) scores of Māori lived generally happy & satisfying marae-based working lives emoloyed in the myriad small local freezing works & dairy products companies based in the rural towns that circle that ataahua Maunga.

                    Freezing works & dairy factory work (becos collective & unionised) was well-paid, & Māori were able to stay in their hapu's nga rohe, get plenty of kai moana, & keep their collective & cooperative way of life ticking over quite well. Plus, transpor & other needs were simpler & cheaper.

                    Rogernomics/Ruthenasia gutted those industries, wrecking the traditional relationships & lifestyle, forcing migrations to the cities and accelerating gang growth in the urban conglomerations as well as the local towns cos poverty, welfare dependence, idle hands of young people.

                    Will take some time, but I believe that situation can be turned around by a government of smart Pākehā folk working together with educated & hands-on Māori successful entrepreneurs, professionals & dependable MPs & Cabinet Ministers.

                    • Gezza

                      Sorry Mod. Dunno how a double post happened. Usually get a pop up saying "You've already said that", that prevents a duplicate comment. Gremlins?

            • Shanreagh 2.2.2.1.1.3

              One way is to adopt laws such as the RICO laws that are used in the US.

              https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Racketeer_Influenced_and_Corrupt_Organizations_Act

              From a quick read it focussed on the actions (crimes), patterns (acting in a criminal enterprise). It was not necessary to specify the names but to look at the actions. In the US, as usual, it provided a happy hunting ground for the litigious but here in NZ if we enacted something focussing on certain crimes, the enterprises behind them then it can sweep up all types of gang related activity.

              So a focus on the crime and the damage crime has in society rather than on individual gangs. This may make it easier for Iwi to work with their members in the gangs as 'someone' else has possibly designated the actions a RICO action. This kind of approach would need to be run past the people who deal with Treaty grievances/human rights as we would not want to set the Govt up for a claim in times to come

  3. Sanctuary 3

    Ah, to be a member of the billionaire class.

    • Puckish Rogue 3.1

      Ah, the politics of envy.

    • AB 3.2

      Jackson seems to me a bit like an overgrown child. He's not really interested in WW1 itself, neither its causes (imperial rivalry, resource competition, arms races, military alliances) nor its effects (Sykes-Picot, Balfour, the rise of Hitler, the opportunity it presented to the regressive, authoritarian Bolsheviks, etc.) He just likes all the techno stuff – the same way his later movies are crammed with special effects to the detriment of real examination of human character. To be fair – some of the WW1 planes are really beautiful, but in general why are the rich and famous frequently so undistinguished?

  4. Puckish Rogue 4

    https://www.kiwiblog.co.nz/2021/11/a_video_worth_watching.html

    Good video from Nicola Willis about the goings on at Kainga Ora, can't wait for part two and its good to, finally, see an opposition do something like this.

  5. Molly 5

    I don't know if anyone else is following the story on the Irish Mother and Baby homes, and the incremental progress of exhumation and answers.

    There's been a new documentary released, which is reported on in the Irish Times:

    Don’t numb yourself to the callousness at Tuam mother and baby home. Stay angry

    A national inquiry has taken place, but the bodies remain in situ – in the septic system in which they were discovered. Approx 800 in Tuam, but conservative estimates for 9000 unmarked burials.

    The catalyst of the story was, of course, the discovery by the historian Catherine Corless of a secret burial site at the Tuam mother-and-baby home, where the remains of an as-yet-undermined number of children had been dumped in what appears to have been a row of septic tanks. The callousness is beyond comprehension.

    This is a stain on the Catholic Church and the Bon Secours order of nuns, which ran the home. And, yes, on Ireland, although it is crucial not to lose sight of the fact that the mothers and children were mistreated not only by “society” but also by individuals who chose cruelty rather than humanity.

    This exposure came about due to a woman investigating her local history, and finding an anomaly in the death certificates and birth records.

    I can't find a link to the latest documentary, but there is a good one on Youtube.

    I loved visiting Ireland and staying in the homes of my Irish friends.

    My generation follows those in the final years of operation. The geographical distance between there and here is immense, but nowhere near as vast as the difference in experience of those women and mine as an unmarried mother.

  6. Molly 6

    If you click on the video at 48:40, you will see how the cruelty of Bon Secours continued by their denial of burials, which has since been proven to be false.

    • Molly 6.1

      Sorry, meant to be a reply to Puckish Rogue @ 5.1

    • Puckish Rogue 6.2

      Light entertainment on a sunny Monday afternoon smiley

      • Molly 6.2.1

        Avoiding the Covid debacle and other things… smiley

        (My partner heard what I was watching and said, "Distracting yourself, and you choose that?")

    • Blazer 6.3

      The atrocities committed by these mainstream religions seems to be …endless.

      • Pete 6.3.1

        The comments remind me of a movie I've seen a couple of times. As much as it made me angry I loved it.

        Philomena

        "Based on a powerful true story and led by note-perfect performances from Judi Dench and Steve Coogan, Philomena offers a profoundly affecting drama for adult filmgoers of all ages.

        In 1952, Irish teenager Philomena (Judi Dench) became pregnant out of wedlock and was sent to a convent. When her baby, Anthony, was a toddler, the nuns took Philomena's child away from her and put him up for adoption in the United States. For the next 50 years, she searched tirelessly for her son. When former BBC correspondent Martin Sixsmith (Steve Coogan) learns of the story, he becomes her ally. They travel together to America to find Anthony and become unexpectedly close in the process."

  7. Brigid 7

    The Catholic church has done so much damage with its disgusting state sanctioned brutalising of women and children and yet the pope, as a representative of desirable morals, is still quoted.

    It's a demonstration of the hypocrisy of humankind which calls for the prohibition of gangs while the Catholic Church which has practised untold cruelty for such a long time, remains not held to account or punished.

    • Molly 7.1

      Interesting comment in video that 90% of primary schools are state funded Catholic ones, and 60% of secondary schools. The power and influence remains.

      @41:00 is one woman's story, as a pregnant 18 yr old in England, she was kidnapped by the clergy and taken to Ireland. This sanctioned abduction had a name "The Crusade of Rescue", where "fallen women" were denounced and then taken back to Ireland to be assimilated into the homes.

      • Brigid 7.1.1

        I have to admit Molly, I could only watch a few minutes of the youtube video.

        Poor poor little kids.

        My sisters attended the local Catholic convent and while their experience was miles from the experience of the kids in Irish 'homes', the nuns in the typical NZ primary school were nasty fuckers.

        • Molly 7.1.1.1

          My sister-in-law's large Catholic family was involved in the church out of habit rather than faith. At their mother's funeral they joked about the priests their mother told them never to be alone with. They found it funny.

          People know, and do nothing.

    • Sabine 7.2

      the sway they hold, the receipts too.

      • Molly 7.2.1

        Sabine, I know you have spoken often of your sexual abuse as a child, but I don't know if I've ever responded.

        I recently attended the funeral of a dear friend's mother, and got to meet the brother that sexually abused her from the ages of seven to eleven. The love in that family is easy and palpable.

        I don't know how or if you ever fully recover from such betrayal or brutality.

        I just wanted to say I grieve for both those girls that once were, and value the acquaintance of the women they became. I consider her a sister of the heart, and you are definitely a sister on The Standard.

        • Sabine 7.2.1.1

          IU spend time with my family, after i came back to them after 10+ years away. – It took me many years to go from fucked up transient teen to somewhat functioning adults. I pretended to be nice to my rapist, that was the price i paid to see my little sister and reconnect with whom i was in the homeland. I never harmed the man, but not because i did not wanted to, but i understood that he is not worth me going to prison for murder.

          There was no love in my family. Just booze, fear, and disgust. And i am the one that sorted her life to some extend. And no the trust never comes back, and the disgust never leaves.

          thanks for considering me a sister in spirit.

          • Molly 7.2.1.1.1

            Thanks, Sabine.

            When I said the love in that family is easy and palpable, I should almost mention that from the outside I think it comes at a very high cost. That cost is borne completely by my friend. The family had/and still has high standing within the church and community, and all the siblings (bar my friend) are successful professionals and businesspeople.

            Any harm to her has been ignored, it has to be so in order for the rest of the family to remain intact. So the harm continues. Thanks for sharing your story.

  8. observer 8

    TV1 poll at 6 pm. Guessing game:

    Labour 40, Greens 9 TPM 2

    National 29 ACT 16 Others 4

    Ardern's body language at post-Cab isn't giving much away (she will have known the results beforehand, for the pre-recorded clip on the news tonight).

    Ironically a good boost for National/Collins could be bad news for them … they need a pretext for the coup.

  9. georgecom 9

    looks like some more antivax 'gridlock' events coming our way soon

    r/newzealand - First image of Brian Tamakis Freedumb Fighters heading into Wellington to protest this morning

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