Open mike 15/06/2012

65 comments on “Open mike 15/06/2012 ”

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1. muzza 1

   15 June 2012 at 7:50 am

   Home Office Secretary Theresa May said in an editorial published ahead of the bill’s unveiling that only evil-doers should be frightened.

   “and in a sharply-worded editorial the nation’s top law enforcement official accused those worried about the surveillance program of being either criminals or conspiracy theorists”

   “In some cases, the bill envisages monitoring the information in real time”

   –Welcome to the jobs new growth sector

   This world is heading the wrong way very quickly.
2. Carol 2

   15 June 2012 at 7:51 am

   Sad news about the dissolution of Egypt’s parliament by the high court:

   http://www.aljazeera.com/news/middleeast/2012/06/2012614172410271831.html

   Two days before the country is set to elect a new president, Egypt’s Supreme Constitutional Court has ruled that the Islamist-dominated parliament must be dissolved and that former regime figures must be allowed to hold political office, effectively approving the candidacy of presidential hopeful and former prime minister Ahmed Shafiq.

   AJ news this morning talked about the “deep state” in Egypt. i.e.:
   The reactionary militaristic power embedded in the state’s institutions: the courts etc.

   This set me to wondering about the nature of NZ’s “deep state” and what is involved? The treasury? The media? The courts? The SIS?…. and how much it has been infiltrated by the so-called “neoliberal” discourses and practices?
   • joe90 2.1

     15 June 2012 at 9:29 am

     We’ve seen a member of a well known South Island farming family claim some pretty impressive scalps this week.
   • muzza 2.2

     15 June 2012 at 10:25 am

     Carol the questions you raise, are the questions which most want to blow off as “conspiracy”, and yet there are examples even in the MSM every day, which illustrate the realities of how the world is run, Egypt being the recent predictable example, shown by your post.

     People want (need) to believe in accidents, coincidence, or stupidity of government..
   • prism 2.3

     15 June 2012 at 10:29 am

     As I’ve heard it Egypt was in a bind anyway. Aren’t there two candidates, one from the Muslim Brotherhood, with a fear of them by many as they may institute sharia law, and some guy who is part of the old regime.
   • joe90 2.4

     15 June 2012 at 11:04 am

     Egyptian Amr Bargisi, who may or may not be on a neo-lib payroll, is very pessimistic about his country’s future.
3. yeshe 3

   15 June 2012 at 9:24 am

   Can someone help me with this — I woke in the freezing dead of night terrified with the thought that the TPP could be used by Monsanto and Dow to force GM substances into our food and feed markets ?

   Just before the last election Nick Smith was sprung in his ignorance of a new study being done to support GM substances, and only recently in the House someone referred to ‘innovative’ agriculture.
   Anyone know anything more about this study ?

   The most idiotic thing of all is that we are one of the last bastions of non GMO — surely, this is a potential market of huge value ?

   How do we oppose the TPP when none of it will be made public until after it is signed ??
   • Uturn 3.1

     15 June 2012 at 10:59 am

     So the question is how to oppose before you know when to oppose or what it is you are opposing; and then how to get out of the loop which uses a clause that cannot be refuted because it exists in the grey area of the probable?

     The simple answer is to side step. Then you at least eliminate the imbalance of preparing for opposition without first winning a space for rationality and to form strategy. Next is to understand that nothing is certain and to get from a clean supply to a corrupted supply takes time and effort. Longer, definitely than it will take for you to get a good night’s sleep.

     Those who supply GM products/seed are not certain of long term effects in the environment – this is both good and bad. We know what could go wrong, but we cannot know what we do not know i.e. the actual future. This means that our version of bad events may not happen. This isn’t to say it can’t happen or that general release is safe. It is just a way to place all points of the problem into a wider perspective. A mind that readily identifies patterns can become a powerful mental roadblock if allowed to reach an imbalance. Once the balance is lost, the patterns trap you. Realising the trap, indicated by being “terrifed with the thought”, then highlights the stall of thinking. There is a way forward. Life is not linear, regardless of how beautiful the pattern may seem. Life is full of chance. Chance is chance – pure, untouched, yet to be shaped, neither good nor bad, without bias, without prejudice. Nothing can be done in the terrified early hours of the cold morning. Relax.

     Provided all the facts of the position have been presented, we can then work backwards from worst case, being vegetable and meat supplies corrupted with GM material.

     Immediate solutions:

     Urban farming; seedsaving/sharing; landshare; home based pork and poultry products; vegetarianism.

     Start these intiatives now, you build up a following of like minds that in the very least is a real island of protection against an imagined tide of corrupted GM supply. The sooner they are started, the more time there is to address practical methods for protecting against cross-pollenation issues, legal oppositions and defenses etc. Pick a point of practical action and begin.

     Indirect reactive influences:

     Removing your food source from the corrupted food chain; self empowerment that can be extended to participants; reduction of demand for corrupted market; strengthening of necessity based community relationships.

     There are other far more theoretical and complex imaginings supporting the premise that Dow and Monsanto could force-feed people bad food, but these take far more maneovering and time to manifest in NZ than it would take for a person to begin effectual action against them. In the context of an early morning wake-up call, they can be safely dismissed. These events could not happen entirely covertly i.e. the difference between clear and present danger and covert unknown dangers. If your mind starts to assign unrealistic power to unknown possibilities, catch it at work and realise the reality.

     When dealing with possible scenarios based on supposition and likelihood, realise that nothing is certain. If, in the scenario, chance is allowed to make a tourist drop a handful of seed, then why is it that chance is then not allowed to intervene again later in a zero germination rate for the seeds? Maybe the natural pests and birds got the rest before they flowered?

     Is this to say that we should do nothing, ever? Not at all. It is simply higlighting another trick of the mind to try to control the effect of chance for a negetive effect, resulting mostly, in people not being able to sleep at night. We cannot say what just one person, stating today on an urban farm will or will not cause to happen, even by small ripple effect, by this time next year. Don’t try to bully chance into being a bully. It would contravene the idea that nature knows best.

     When confronted with the unknowable that threatens with the unforeseable, your first strategic weapon is your mind. Stay flexible. Remain calm. Step outside the cycle. View it from a distance, place all points in an overall wider context. Remember that bad does not exist without good, right without left, dark without light. If your mind recognises only negetive possibilities, you are acknowledging less than half the picture. Do not mentally oppose the unbalanced theoretical. Step back and be ready for opportunities for indirect action involving the actual.

     Effective minds require sleep. Stay effective.
     • Bored 3.1.1

       15 June 2012 at 11:19 am

       Nice post Uturn , I just did some lucid calm thinking about reversing assets sales (on the No Assets sales post). The Monsanto issue is similar, play the buggers at their own game as you say by growing your own.

       A little lucid clam thinking has also reminded me that the Monsanto model is truly integrated to the cheap petro chem model of agriculture and pesticides: oil decline will f**k them over in a number of ways.
     • marty mars 3.1.2

       15 June 2012 at 11:22 am

       really great comment Uturn.
     • Draco T Bastard 3.1.3

       15 June 2012 at 2:45 pm

       If, in the scenario, chance is allowed to make a tourist drop a handful of seed, then why is it that chance is then not allowed to intervene again later in a zero germination rate for the seeds?

       Um, because the opening of the hand is one chance, the sprouting of the seeds is hundreds of chances.

       Actually, that entire rant was just a mind soothe seemingly designed to put peoples minds at rest about the dangers in GMO.
   • Sarah 3.2

     21 June 2012 at 12:15 am

     We need to massively support the Australian government in its stand and urge them to hold strong!!
     Maybe the opposition parties can write an open letter to the Australian government
4. freedom 4

   15 June 2012 at 10:43 am

   all it would take is one act of industrial espionage, such as a ‘tourist’ dropping a handful of GM seeds onto NZ soil and whammo Monsanto will be all over us with patent infringement cases and end up owning NZ.

   watch David vs Monsanto
   http://archive.org/details/DavidV.Monsanto

   watch Food Inc
   and if you want to read some of their pitiful responses to the film http://www.monsanto.com/food-inc/Pages/default.aspx remember Monsanto was invited to be interviewed for the film but declined.

   Most importantly, use your own powers of critical perception and ask who the TPP will benefit?
   http://www.scoop.co.nz/stories/PO1206/S00186/national-says-yes-to-investor-rights-to-sue.htm
   • Olwyn 4.1

     15 June 2012 at 11:58 am

     Bits of the TPP agreement that worry me are matters such as unions and worker’s rights. If governments cannot legislate in such ways as to reduce corporate profit margins, they may have difficulty opposing contract work, or the importation of short-term, low paid foreign workers while many of our own remain unemployed.
5. prism 5

   15 June 2012 at 10:50 am

   TPP (Trans-Pacific Partnership (multinational economic agreement)) secrecy, well we have been confronted with this before when international deals were being discussed.. It’s so interesting in an objective way, to see wars being fought ostensibly to bring democracy. But the d word is just a game to play with, with less rigid rules than when playing Scrabble. But the politicians and their flunkeys and funders sure know how to use words and they can read philosophy, they just don’t understand it.

   yeshe is imagining the effects on food and genetic engineering when the big corporates are allowed to have their way with us. I have been thinking of NZ as a naive girl with Tim Groser as a procurer employed by a hard-faced, money-obssessed, amoral group of confidence men and women within this country, catering for a powerful group of evil pirates looking for slave labour and treasure. We have this fascinating and dramatic serial unwinding which we can watch with avid interest as did the viewers in the film The Truman show.

   Our girl wanders through the bush like little Red Riding Hood – will the wolfish group spirit her away or will the rescue party arrive to keep her alive? Fairy tales were largely precautionary tales for real people. I wait each day for the next episode with helpless anxiety.
   • Bored 5.1

     15 June 2012 at 11:30 am

     My version of Little Red Riding Hood has her carrying a basket with a gingham cloth cover, which when removed reveals a sawn off shotgun……..
     • prism 5.1.1

       15 June 2012 at 2:40 pm

       Yes well…I was thinking of going for a G certificate, but even the kiddies today are going for, or being presented with, gritty adult ideas. (Recently I saw tshirt size 1 yr with a skull on it).
       A sawn-off shotgun I believe fires off a lot of shot in all directions, yes could work.
     • Carol 5.1.2

       15 June 2012 at 6:45 pm

       Red Riding Hood in the TV show Once Upon a Time discovered that the wolf she feared so much, is herself. Her mother had been trying to protect her from the knowledge of being the latest in a long line of werewolves.

       NZ maybe naive and ignorant on the future, because our “parents” have been keeping the truth from us. But that may be because we are more powerful than we realise… especially when we learn more of the truth.
       • Draco T Bastard 5.1.2.1

         15 June 2012 at 6:57 pm

         Knowledge and acceptance of the truth will allow self-governance, being kept in the dark and fed BS keeps us slaves.

         Guess which seems to be the one that this government wants?
         • muzza 5.1.2.1.1

           16 June 2012 at 11:23 am

           “Guess which seems to be the one that this government wants?”

           –Not just this govt though is it!
       • prism 5.1.2.2

         15 June 2012 at 11:29 pm

         Well that’s a great twist on the story. But energising a whole country to understand their inner werewolf would be too much for NZ I think. Though if we could make it a new fad we could spread the idea and develop that along complex network lines which are explained on Wikipedia which I still don’t understand. We need a new approach for sure, this same old same old isn’t going forward, just round and round down the gurgler.
6. marty mars 6

   15 June 2012 at 11:06 am

   Wow JMG continues his brilliant posts and his current theme of accepting the truth of what is happening to our industrial societies and the end game of that scenario. Last week he entitled his post, “collapse now and avoid the rush” and this week he discusses self-delusion.

   I suspect, rather, that the refusal to recognize and deal with the end of progress will become a massive social force in the decade or so ahead of us, and that the great divide in American society during those years will not be the one between left and right, or between rich and poor, but between those who have accepted history’s verdict on our fantasy of perpetual progress, on the one hand, and those who cling to the fantasy despite all disconfirmations, on the other.

   http://thearchdruidreport.blogspot.co.nz/

   The hardcore megadeathdoomers don’t like him because he offers solutions for today and tomorrow and those solution start with us, where we are now, whatever we are doing. Many contributors to this site are up to speed on the situation, we can see it everywhere, and we are doing what we can. JMG makes me uncomfortable because his posts make me realise how much i am clinging onto this society and the benefits I get from it.
   • Bored 6.1

     15 June 2012 at 11:23 am

     Greer, Orlov and Kunstler, the Holy Trinity of truly clear thinking on matters of the future…..
   • Draco T Bastard 6.2

     15 June 2012 at 2:51 pm

     Actual Link

     I tend to disagree with Greer a bit as I think that small societies with good renewable energy supplies and sustainable practices in resource use will be able to keep going. Yes, there will be power down. Nobody will have cars any more but there will still be transport and computers.

     But, it does need to be a small society.
     • Bored 6.2.1

       15 June 2012 at 3:18 pm

       Have not explored that issue much but I tend toward any size community being able to continue to the level of the energy supply, which mean appropriate tools are necessary.

       There has been a tendency on this blog for people to assume a non regression principle, i.e.that what we have and know about today is going to be possible forever. I would contend that the resources available will drive the technology we utilise, and that what we know about we may not be able to practice because of this. Lack of practice tends to lead to loss of practical memory, which can make re-adoption of known technology problematic.

       Coming back to your small community contention when we talk high tech (computers etc) we are talking massive complexity of systems, supply, support etc with massive amounts of interdependence. The more complex the more chances there are for single point catastrophic failure. This would incline me towards a lower tech future being more likely than a retention of our core technologies.
       • lostinsuburbia 6.2.1.1

         15 June 2012 at 3:49 pm

         You’ve also got to have a critical mass to be able to produce goods or services to pay off the bills for these things. Old school thinking I know but some sort of payment service will have to keep going in the future.

         The classic example of the costs of modern infrastructure/technology at the moment is being played out in Kaipara with a small community being lumped with the cost of expensive wastewater treatment (albeit that the wastewater plant in question is oversized for the current population). A similar example is the wastewater plant at Kawakawa Bay that ended up costing $29M.
         • Draco T Bastard 6.2.1.1.1

           15 June 2012 at 6:29 pm

           You’ve also got to have a critical mass to be able to produce goods or services to pay off the bills for these things.

           Money != the economy

           What that basically means is that if we have the physical resources available to do something then we can do it. We have the resources available but it does mean that over production in other areas (such as farming or building boats) and service industries (ZOMG, we won’t be able to afford to have anyone working at McDs) will have to be curtailed.

           Or, as the tutors at uni said, economics is about the distribution of scarce resources and money is not a resource nor is it scarce.
       • Draco T Bastard 6.2.1.2

         15 June 2012 at 6:33 pm

         Have not explored that issue much but I tend toward any size community being able to continue to the level of the energy supply, which mean appropriate tools are necessary.

         Which means that we need to do a lot of R&D into renewable power generation

         Coming back to your small community contention when we talk high tech (computers etc) we are talking massive complexity of systems, supply, support etc with massive amounts of interdependence.

         Yep but it’s quite possible for us to do so. We have the base resources, we have access to the basic knowledge to do these things and we have universities and polytechnics for research and teaching.
         • Colonial Viper 6.2.1.2.1

           16 June 2012 at 12:02 am

           Which means that we need to do a lot of R&D into renewable power generation

           I wouldn’t bother.

           Hydro, localised and national grid wind generation and solar thermal is 80% of what we need.

           Let’s just get on with it now.
           • Draco T Bastard 6.2.1.2.1.1

             16 June 2012 at 1:26 am

             We should be starting now but the R&D is to make what we have now more efficient and to tune it to local conditions. We also need to make it cover 100% of our needs.
             • Colonial Viper …

               16 June 2012 at 12:06 pm

               Renewables aren’t going to cover all of our needs – and I am thinking here particularly of transportation. Coastal shipping, rail, air travel and public transport are all going to remain heavily dependent on fossil fuels.

               Also (as I am quite sure you are aware) improving efficiency is not the real issue. Cutting total energy use is.
               • Draco T Bastard …

                 16 June 2012 at 3:53 pm

                 Coastal shipping = sail
                 Rail/public transport = electric
                 Air travel will be non-existent

                 We can produce enough to cover what we need if we build the infrastructure. And there’s one other thing:

                 Renewables aren’t going to cover all of our needs

                 We have no choice, renewables must cover what we need.

                 Cutting total energy use is.

                 Which is why cars will be gone.
   • R 6.3

     15 June 2012 at 11:47 pm

     thanks for linking this, I confess to not having heard of this writer before now and I really like his/her blog and message. It’ll take a while to read the whole lot since 2006 but I’m inclined to do so based on the last three posts. Thanks mm

     PS I started from the beginning and the fictional scenarios were very sweet.
7. CJ 7

   15 June 2012 at 11:49 am

   Hating on the Herb – Propaganda Lolz
8. Dr Terry 8

   15 June 2012 at 11:53 am

   I am finding it hard already to view comments on the “back down” of the Government on educational so called “policies”. We must have noted that Key accepted absolutely no responsibility, and settled for treating all opponents as a bunch of ignorant clowns incapable of comprehending Tory “wisdom” (is any one of that lot a qualified expert in education?)
   Please be sure to read this morning’s N.Z. Herald editorial, probably the best they ever published!!
   • ianmac 8.1

     15 June 2012 at 2:47 pm

     +1
9. Herodotus 9

   15 June 2012 at 11:57 am

   With auckland pop. Estimates to increase by 1 million by 2040, mainly as a result of immigration. Also given that nz grew due to net migration of 400,000 why is there no discussion as to the cost that this has resulted in. Growing pains that Auckland and NZ is incapable to cope with, and the consequences ( e.g high housing costs, increased infrusture and unity demand). We seem to have an amazing perpencity to create problems with bo associate solutions. Such growth will kill Auckland and thus NZ.
10. travellerev 10

    15 June 2012 at 12:32 pm

    I don’t make comparisons with Hitler lightly and I’m not saying John Key is like Hitler but the hysterical voice of John Key when he talks about NZ not being involved in the illegal war in Iraq is truly frightening and makes me even more worried about NZ signing up to NATO.
11. travellerev 11

    15 June 2012 at 12:33 pm

    Yeah, yeah it’s the H word purgatory

    [lprent: Yep. It is one of the classic misuse words to catch trolls. To know that it is there is to make it simple to get around. 😈 ]
    • travellerev 11.1

      15 June 2012 at 1:48 pm

      I’m glad you came to the conclusion that this is not how I used it. 🙂
      • vto 11.1.1

        15 June 2012 at 3:08 pm

        I don’t see the problem. Comparison of todays people and activities with the biggest event in the 20th century is entirely applicable a lot of the time.

        Lest we forget ffs ……….
        • McFlock 11.1.1.1

          15 June 2012 at 3:24 pm

          It’s fine when used rationally, but that’s a bit of a tautology. 
              
          The problem is when people with little life get obsessed by issues that are usually pretty little (e.g. maybe a local council placement of traffic lights near a school) or even imaginary (not touching with a bargepole). They lose perspective and start  saying stuff like ‘this 30kph speed restriction is worse than H~!”. And everything goes downhill from there.
                
          And like most things, if it gets overused it loses its ability to adequately communicate the user’s perspective. 
        • travellerev 11.1.1.2

          15 June 2012 at 3:30 pm

          Hi vto,
          I thought this might interest you. It is a complete map of the inner circle of Bilderberg and their business interests.
        • lostinsuburbia 11.1.1.3

          15 June 2012 at 3:51 pm

          well they both had/have a thing for building motorways.
12. Peter 12

    15 June 2012 at 1:15 pm

    Austerity Failure – UK to counter austerity with huge cash injection

    http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2159480/140bn-kiss-life-Britain-Chancellor-Bank-dramatic-bid-hand-small-firms-house-buyers-cheap-loans–gamble-work.html
    • Bob 12.1

      15 June 2012 at 9:24 pm

      Correct Peter, instead, tax cuts are the answer http://articles.businessinsider.com/2012-04-20/news/31372306_1_stimulus-ponytail-financial-crisis

      Although these would be labelled ‘tax cuts for the rich’ and slammed by the left if it happened in NZ.
13. Dr Terry 13

    15 June 2012 at 1:20 pm

    Have people read in this morning’s Herald about the Government’s new scheme relating to the long-term unemployed? To my eye, the old scheme looks somewhat better and simpler! However, maybe I have got it wrong. Would like to know what others think.
    If I have got it right, the Government input is now reduced from a total of $92 to a revised total of $62! Are we, again, being sold “a bill of goods”?
    • Vicky32 13.1

      15 June 2012 at 5:16 pm

      Have people read in this morning’s Herald about the Government’s new scheme relating to the long-term unemployed?

      I read it on their website.. or think I did! Something similar anyway…
      Very jolly complicated, and as far as I can see, much less helpful than the previous ones!
14. freedom 14

    15 June 2012 at 6:11 pm

    Apologies to the watchers the writers the minders and the keepers of The Standard.
    -if this posting results in a ban i unreservedly accept it and have weighed that against the importance of the act which is itself a last resort dictated by circumstances not of my making.

    A direct question to Pete George:

    Are you the Peter G who set up the No Asset Sales petition at Avaaz.org?

    Earlier today on your blog i asked you that direct question. Instead of replying like an adult you removed the post and have not responded. If you had time to remove the post you had time to reply. I feel you left me no option but to inquire more publicly.

    I have contacted Avaaz re the posting. I outlined the situation here in NZ and requested a clear header be added to the on-line petition explaining that it has no validity in the referendum process and is actually doing more harm than good. Something most here would be well aware of, including you Peter George.

    PG I gave you an opportunity to answer a very simple question but instead you removed the post that has been part of your site since the petition’s inception. ( Really pathetic!) You slid away under your rock and this act of malfeasance will not be forgotten. (Sure you are not in public office but you basically imagine yourself to be, so it is more than apt)

    note: for full disclosure i will happily post the email sent to Avaaz.org if requested
    ( after editing identifiers )

    p.s. PG after discovering you had removed the No Asset Sales post promoting the Avaaz.org petition i took screengrabs so don’t try to repost it. I wish i had done earlier as well but the idea you would remove the post supporting the petition never occurred to me, naive little bunny that i am

    [Your question seems fair to me freedom. You’re not speculating about the identity of anonymous / pseudonymous participants here. You’re just asking Pete George if he started a petition. — r0b]
    • Pete George 14.1

      16 June 2012 at 8:51 am

      No, I haven’t started any petitions. I don’t know what happened to your question on the blog, I haven’t had time to do anything there. Back later this morning.
      • Te Reo Putake 14.1.1

        16 June 2012 at 8:54 am

        The question wasn’t about ‘any’ petitions, it was about one specific petition. Are you the Pete G. who started the Avaaz ssset sales petition or not? Yes or no?
        • Pete George 14.1.1.1

          16 June 2012 at 11:39 am

          FFS, “I haven’t started any petitions” means I have not started any petitions, at all, zero, including the Avaaz petition mentioned.

          Are you the Pete G. who started the Avaaz ssset sales petition or not? Yes or no?

          In case you still don’t undertsand that – No.

          And that was under “Peter G.”, I don’t use that variant of my name online.
          • yeshe 14.1.1.1.1

            16 June 2012 at 12:08 pm

            Just because I can .. please Pete, may I ask you — does anyone else, or did anyone else, have access to your blog for writing and/or posting/ or deleting ? May you receive it as a fair question … many thx.
            • Pete George 14.1.1.1.1.1

              16 June 2012 at 12:14 pm

              I don’t know how anyone else could have had access to the Yourdunedin.org blog.
      • freedom 14.1.2

        16 June 2012 at 9:24 am

        to PG: You disingenuous person,

        You deleted the entire thread that was promoting the Avaaz No Asset Sales Petition, not just my posted question. As it is your blog you very well know what happened and you now decide to besmirch the security record and the reputation of WordPress.com by insinuating that a phantom manipulated your blog and removed a thread that you had been actively promoting. That, or you are accusing me of fabricating the existence of said thread.

        I stand by the facts asserted in the post above and only wish i had taken screen grabs of the blog when i first visited the thread, but why would i ever suspect it would be removed. Having screen grabs of the current listings only shows the post is not there. I cannot prove it ever was but as i am not prone to posting on non-existent threads i know it was and you know it was.

        I thank The Standard for allowing this matter to be aired. I sincerely hope it offers many here a moment of reflection as to the character and intentions of Pete George.

        I will continue to do what i can to promote and support the real petition but on the Peter G petition i am done, i have had enough of my time wasted on this saboteur
        • deuto 14.1.2.1

          16 June 2012 at 10:22 am

          freedom, IMHO I don’t think that PG is the author of the online petition although I share your and others’ views on PG’s disingenuity etc. It has been a relief not having him spewing here for two days.

          The reasons I don’t think it is him are that he is very consistent in using “Pete” not “Peter” in his blogging across many blogs and on Linked In etc (Yes I checked) and the online petition originator is “Peter G”. The writing style and language used in the petition and its updates are also very different from that of PG – for example, PG hardly knows the difference between “Government” and “Parliament” and has used these incorrectly a number of times. The online petition is very clear in its language, eg
          The bill will now be debated by the Committee of the Whole House, and opposition parties are planning to propose hundreds of amendments to delay Government legislation.

          That is not to say that someone else could not have wrote it for him! But my gut instinct is that it is not him, but that is in no way of a defence of him as i have no respect etc for PG.

          I signed the online petition is an instant reaction when it was first put up but have also signed and totally support the official referendum. I agree that it would be easy for people to mistakenly think the online petition is the referendum one, and wish that the online one had made it clear that they were not one and the same. There does not seem to be any way to communicate this to the author. My reading of the online petition was/is that it is an attempt to get as many to sign in a short space of time (and almost 25,000 as of a few minutes ago is pretty astounding in 3-4 days) to thow at Key et al next week when the Bill goes into Committee stages.

          I am really pleased you raised the question as to whether Pete George was the author – and in some perverse ways I hope that my opinion is wrong. On the other hand, our discussion of this as a possibility also plays right into what I also think is PG’s raison d’etre – to be the centre of attention and to think he is much more important and influential than he really is.
          • dd 14.1.2.1.1

            16 June 2012 at 10:43 am

            I’m not convinced the online petition is a bad thing.

            If anything it’s promoting awareness of the issue. It just needs to be followed up with people on the streets getting people signing.
        • Jackal 14.1.2.2

          16 June 2012 at 11:24 am

          freedom, If you use an archive service, you might find that it’s backed up somewhere.
        • Pete George 14.1.2.3

          16 June 2012 at 11:29 am

          I didn’t delete anything. I’ve just replied at http://yourdunedin.org/about/

          I suspect you were looking in the wrong place/blog, commenting on “About” is not the usual place to put or find comments.
          • freedom 14.1.2.3.1

            16 June 2012 at 11:58 am

            i will reply to Pete here and everyone can be assured this is the end of this matter although little is clear.

            I agree Pete, nothing about this is usual. All i can say is something very very strange is going on. I am certainly a magnet for strange and would love to understand why. I saw the petition, saw the creator, went to your blog, saw the post promoting the petition on your blog and submitted a question using the reply function.

            If you declare you did not start the Avaaz petition i must accept that, but if you say you have not deleted a posting on the petition then i guess i hallucinated the whole thing and should seek immediate psychiatric help! I have had professional counseling for PTSD in the past and no suspicion of any psychiatric illness was ever identified in fact the two therapists I have worked with both stated clearly that i have a clear and perceptive grasp of reality.

            I guess it is a Ripley’s moment and we all end up as much in the dark as when we began.
            Someone somewhere knows what is going on and I hope they are happy with the disquiet that has been generated. Perhaps someday they will fill me in on the joke because i do not find it funny, neither do i suspect does Pete who it appears has been unjustly accosted by me on this subject. I do not know what else to do, despite my misgivings i feel i must say sorry Pete for the suspicion that you tried to sabotage the petition process. As the Petition is 305 signatories away from its goal, I guess we might discover who Peter G is when the avaaz petition gets delivered to parliament as promised. Pete , i am sorry.
            • deuto 14.1.2.3.1.1

              16 June 2012 at 12:10 pm

              Kudos to you, freedom – you have my respect.
            • Pete George 14.1.2.3.1.2

              16 June 2012 at 12:14 pm

              I saw the petition, saw the creator, went to your blog, saw the post promoting the petition on your blog and submitted a question using the reply function.

              There was no post promoting the petition on the blog (the Yourdunedin.org one) that i have seen and i don’t know how there could have been unless hacked – and subsequently unhacked.

              You posted on About which had no link to the petition.

              Apology accepted.
    • Pete George 14.2

      16 June 2012 at 11:50 am

      discovering you had removed the No Asset Sales post promoting the Avaaz.org petition i took screengrabs so don’t try to repost it. </blockquote

      I never posted anywhere promoting the Avaaz.org petition, I never knew the petitioin existed until now, I never knew Avaaz existed until now.

      So I am interested to see what screengrabs you have.

      The "Peter G." associated with the Avaaz petition is either genuinely (a different) Pete/Peter G, or is using that name for some reason.
      • Georgecom 14.2.1

        18 June 2012 at 8:44 pm

        Pete, not Peter Dunne making some mischief over the asset sales and using you as the fall guy?
15. deuto 15

    16 June 2012 at 11:05 am

    I agree, dd. There is not just one way to achieve a result, and in the case of the partial asset sales, everything should be tried.

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