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Open mike 15/08/2011

Written By: - Date published: 6:00 am, August 15th, 2011 - 131 comments
Categories: open mike - Tags:

Open mike is your post. For announcements, general discussion, whatever you choose.

The usual rules of good behaviour apply (see the link to Policy in the banner).

Step right up to the mike…

131 comments on “Open mike 15/08/2011 ”

  1. Through my professional life I know a few young people who are or have been on the IYB. Some but not all spend their benefits inappropriately.

    Some but not all Ministers use their credit cards inappropriately. Should we also issue them with cards that can only be used for the purchase of certain items?

    • higherstandard 1.1


      • Bored 1.1.1

        I think that Ministers should claim expenses and have them vetted post the event as I do with my employees expenses. They should be given the right to judge wisely, as should beneficiaries. Too much Big Brothering going on for my liking. Key’s mother should talk to him about living in a world where people called Adolf and Joe loved control a little too much.

    • Carol 1.2

      And before Stuff whips this off their front page, where the title is ‘John Key has no idea’ for the record:


      A former youth beneficiary says she is horrified by the National Party’s welfare clampdown.

      But Aucklander Felicity Perry said it was highly patronising to take away a young person’s financial independence.

      “They aren’t going to be learning how to pay their bills or have the opportunity to gain budgeting experience.”.

      Perry, now 27 and studying for a PhD, left an unsafe home environment at age 16 and was on the independent youth benefit for two years.

      When Ms Perry was on the benefit, she had had to leave an unstable flat in a hurry. “If I had had to go through a bureaucratic process to get my rent changed over in that situation, it would have made things so much worse.

      “John Key clearly has no idea what it is like out there.”

      Green Party co-leader Metiria Turei said requiring teen parents to be in education or training despite the needs of the child – such as breastfeeding and maternal bonding – could damage the connection between parent and child.

      And already the Title on Stuff’s main page has changed to: Get to work, teen mums told.

      And earlier this morning the ‘John Key Has No Idea’ title was the top story on the site, with more top of the article focus on the criticisms.

      • Bored 1.2.1

        No doubt we will be waiting for the usual economic libertarians on this blog to do a “no show” on this issue. Liberty for money and the money masters will always trump liberty for those with little. Principles of “freedom” only apply to them and their money.

      • Ianupnorth 1.2.2

        And on TVNZ the masses were praising Key – scary, but true!

      • freedom 1.2.3

        Stuff is amazing, Usually it takes a hlaf hour if not a half day to see a comment posted

        but not today, 8:36am – 9:14 am, 38minutes 54 comments, 90+% supporting the proposal with flag waving platitudes and very similar talking points. All pretty much running the anti drug/booze/ciggie line.

        yet since 9:14 am it seems no-one has anything to say,

        11:35am, I submitted my 2c, l look forward to seeing it up immediately . . . . . . . . . ???

        • freedom

          the Stuff poll now has fewer ‘no’ votes than it did an hour ago.
          Not a lower %, a lower number of votes

          might have to start screengrabbing poll results if this is Fairfox’s election strategy to manufacture support for National’s policies

          • mickysavage

            What are the numbers freedom?

            • freedom

              when i wrote that the no. was 14 then about fifteen minutes later it was at 11, now at 18

              but look at the question they asked,
              “What do you think of National’s plan to deny booze and tobacco to young beneficiaries?”
              it is so removed from the intent of the policy as to be meaningless, i would vote yes for it just on the health concerns alone,
              that is if i wasn’t aware of what these guys have planned for the privatisation of NZ’s Education, Welfare and Prison systems

          • KJT

            Don’t you get sick of the Herald polls were they have a one sided article. Like the one that forgot to mention that only 2500 odd kids are on the independent youth benefit.

            Hardly earthshaking policy.

            Then they invite a poll.

            Must of had a shock with the asset sales one though.

            Shows that people cannot be taken with the same BS twice.

        • Deadly_NZ

          Yep I have done that a couple of times this weekend and yesterdays still has not appeared. And aren’t the Radid righties out in force in the comments section..

  2. Arthur 2

    John Key, “the needs of children need to be balanced against the needs of other New Zealanders”.
    Bill English, Peter Jackson, ——— John Key?

    • Bored 2.1

      Please preface Peter Jackson with “the Sainted”……he who forgot his class origins and the tax payers who funded his rise, then rorted everybody, and in particular the workers. One of our greatest successes and our greatest dissappointments. A scumbag.

      • The Voice of Reason 2.1.1

        I prefer the term Peter Jackson, master story teller. It’s a bit more subtle than scumbag, but means the same thing.

        • prism

          Peter Jackson a successful industry leader who has had subsidies from government to assist in gaining large projects that are made in NZ employing NZs and bringing recognition and kudos to NZ. There should be more assistance to businesses doing work in NZ, employing NZs to help build our non-primary industry economy. Putting money into NZ Rail to assist in building rolling stock for the railways should be another project helped. Just the same as helping the film industry. One sector shouldn’t be favoured and not the other.

        • Ianupnorth

          His films are all about 50% too long – they are rubbish (IMHO) – give me Tarantino, Kubrik or Coppola any day!

          • millsy

            Return of the King had the ending dragged out at least 20 min too long, and King Kong had the middle go on for too long.

            Have to admit though, Im going to see The Hobbit when it comes out. Even through SPJ refused to acsede to demand that I thought were quite moderate and reasonable.

          • freedom

            be fair, The Lovely Bones is a top class A1 masterfully brilliant piece of work !!!

            and never forget he gave us Meet the Feebles, oh on second thoughts maybe that was a precursor of things to come. If only we had satire and paordy protection in our copyright laws then we could do a sequel and call it the 2011 National Election Campaign

            • Tiger Mountain

              Lord Jackson’s work is generally ‘ripe’. How many liquid eyed ‘poor me’ shots of Frodo did viewers have to endure in LOTR? Lord Jacko may be an industry big shot but is certainly no top draw director artistically.

              I went somewhat off the Hobbit when one volume became two films and totally off following the shameful Labour day Weta company town anti union rally.

          • chris73

            Oh please Kubrik? Only if you like pretentiousness dressed up as “art” and Coppolas a spent force, I mean whats he done thats decent in the last 20 years?

            Tarantinos awesome though

            • freedom

              speaking of forces of nature, You do what exactly Chris?

              any one who can carve Apocolypse Now out of the quagmire of the 1970’s mass market movie machines and retain an assemblage of their sanity deserves a bit more respect.

              According to experts, it is generally accepted a physicist’s best work is done before turning 30 years of age. Einsteins’ final forty years of work contributed little and actually began to question itself. Do you belittle his place in the annals of history? Lord Earnest Rutherford contributed almost nothing to the progression of hard science after splitting the Atom, he chose to focus on smaller problems and seemed happy to do so.

              A man’s work is an army built of its own endeavours, creative work especially. Kubrick, well that is a whole other echelon peopled by the likes of Kieslowski, Vincent Ward and Wim Wenders,

              Artworks are not targeting software,
              they do not require updates to remain valid expressions of Society
              though the strength required will always depend upon the weakness of their targets

              how you feel that reflects on Tarantino, well that’s art for you,
              a one on one with your own perception

              • chris73

                That may well be but I whatever hes (Coppolas) done in the past (as good as it is) doesn’t make up for what hes done in the last 20 years

                Besides which art and popularity don’t have to be seperate, you can have both (Chinatown and The Godfather as example)

                At least you didn’t put Malick in there

            • felix

              “Coppolas a spent force, I mean whats he done thats decent in the last 20 years?”

              If that were a valid way to critique someone’s stature as an artist, I’d be asking you what Tarantino made in the 70s and 80s that was worth watching.

              But I wouldn’t, because then I’d be an retarded like you.

              • chris73

                Ok Felix you’re a sad little man but I’ll indulge you…

                See when I said “spent force” I was suggesting hes well spent which is why I said whats he done in the last 20 years…because I’m saying hes spent

                I’m not saying he hasn’t done incredible work (because he has) but he hasn’t done anything even remotely close to his best work in decades which is why I said hes a spent force

                What I’m saying is (and I have to repeat myself so you’ll get the message) hes a spent force, I’m not trying to take anything away from the great work in the past but hes spent

                Is that clear enough for you

                (in case its not I’ll say it again, hes a spent force)

                • felix

                  Oh dear, I suppose I shouldn’t have expected too much from someone who puts the word “art” in quotation marks when discussing, um, art.

                  But to clarify for you dearie, you were actually using the “spent force” line to say that Jackson is a superior artist to Coppola.

                  Maybe you forgot how your comment came about and what you were responding to (no big deal, it happens) but you still said it and the context makes it very clear that that’s what you meant.

                  Silly goose.

            • mik e

              KUBRIK is pure art just about every frame would make it into an art gallery by its self he understood the medium better than most.Dialogue was kept to a minimum less being more.

        • Deadly_NZ

          Naa Peter Jackson Bullshit artist of the first order. Scumbag is easier to type tho’

          • chris73

            Whatever you think of Sir (and hes earned it) Peter Jacksons views the fact is he pushed the bar with special effects and he managed to film a supposedly unfilmable film

            Not many others can say that

            • felix

              You don’t think there are many who can say they’ve “pushed the bar with special effects”?


              I’m starting to wonder if you’ve ever watched a film.

              • chris73

                Are you Spud by any chance?

                Ok clever boy list me some directors who’ve pushed the bar with special effects and managed to film a supposedly unfilmable film, all at the same time

                • freedom

                  off the top of my head Chris
                  how about the guy who wrote the book on doing that very thing
                  Stanley Kubrick
                  example: 2001 A Space Odessey

                  “Oh please Kubrik? Only if you like pretentiousness dressed up as “art”” Chris73 roflmfao

                  • chris73

                    2001 I thought was long and boring but that means out of all of the directors that have ever done special effects and tried to make a movie out of a difficult book theres been two directors…I don’t know about you but thats pretty damn good in my book

                • felix

                  You’re hilarious.

                  Ok champ, define clearly what an “unfilmable film” is and we’ll go from there.

                  Not holding my breath.

            • KJT

              I think he proved LOTR would take a lot more talent to film than PJ has.

              Rather disappointing, pointlessly long winded films where it was almost impossible to engage with the characters.

              Should have stayed with horror movies.

              • chris73

                Well I agree that the length of the directors cut was too long but the movie length was pretty spot on and as someone who used to play AD&D (a long time ago) I think it was pretty good because at times it felt like an adventure you’d play (didn’t much like Liv Tyler though)

  3. Ianupnorth 3

    On the NZ Herald news pages

    New Zealanders desperate to move to Australia are being told not to bother.Rather than the good life they are expecting, they risk finding themselves broke and homeless and getting caught up in serious crime and prostitution, an Australian newspaper reported yesterday.
    Statistics New Zealand figures show 29,900 permanent and long-term migrants left for Australia in the year to June in the biggest transtasman exodus for three years.


    Last year, Ms Va’a wrote a report for the Maori Party​ outlining the challenges facing community workers.
    She said young New Zealanders away from their parents were graduating from petty offences to drug-dealing and gang-related crime.
    Her report also said that according to staff at the southside office of the Brisbane Children’s Court, New Zealanders accounted for 28 per cent of their case workload.
    “These are kids who don’t have access to student loans or allowances over here, so for many, tertiary education is out of the question,” she said.

    Arguably they’ll be struggling here too, but at least they will have their orange card!

    Her research shows Kiwi families also face problems with overcrowding in homes. Sometimes up to three families share one rental property.
    There are also reports of New Zealand children going to school without uniforms and food because their unemployed parents are not eligible for welfare payments.

    So the same families end up in overcrowded homes and theur kids still don’t get breakfast!

    • Colonial Viper 3.1

      Australia is hitting its slow down now. Will be tough times away from the mining boom areas. The Oz govt has treated NZ workers like labour of convenience. When things get tough – as demonstrated by the flood relief that Kiwis could not access – you are a one. They have no loyalty to you even if you have been a tax payer.

      Wait until unemployed NZers decide they need to come back here because at least here they will have the dole. With 700,000 NZers over in Oz only a fraction would need to come back for our unemployment numbers to spike.

      The days of Australia being a sink for the west’s massive excess labour pool are closing.

      Serious crime and prostitution eh? Exactly what kind of work does John Key anticipate teen mums being able to get in this depressed economic environment?

      • prism 3.1.1

        Colonial Viper – Good points. It is my belief that Aussies have treated us like Mexican wetbacks are treated by the USA. Doing useful work in the country’s workforce that isn’t acknowledged with a government and voters that cling to erroneous ideas around numerous welfare bludgers and xenophobic attitudes. What can be expected from a country that voted John Howard back in after his disgraceful lies about the sea-borne refugees.

    • KJT 3.2

      Ignoring the fact that a greater proportion of immigrant New Zealanders are in employment than native Australians.

  4. Colonial Viper 4

    Nouriel Roubini – Permabear Economist – Says Marx Was Right

    Informative interview from one of Wall Streets “perma-bears”. Conducted by the Wall St Journal no less!

    “Karl Marx had it right,” Roubini says. “At some point capitalism can self-destroy itself. We thought that markets work. They are not working. What’s individually rational… is a self-destructive process.”

    Marx was highly critical of the classical economists and his theory is completely antithetical to neoclassical economists (note this please Thomas).

    Roubini also says that our belief that markets work may be wrong and that it is clear that financial markets are failing. Another stab to the heart of the neo-classical economics dream of “efficient market theory”. More orthodox economics which we have seen doesn’t work in real life.


    • Draco T Bastard 4.1

      He’s making the same point that I do. The free-market seems rational at an individual level but is irrational at a community level.

      • Colonial Viper 4.1.1

        narrowly defined markets can also appear to act rationally. But the complex confluence of multiple markets integrated into an actual ‘economy’. No way.

        Even in the case of individual specific markets, total irrationality can occur. Tulip bulbs for instance…

  5. prism 5

    Just glancing at Arthur Schopenhauer on women. Looked at from his perspective they don’t ‘fare’ well. Only a male intellect clouded by the sexual drive could call the stunted, narrow-shouldered, broad-hipped and short-legged sex the fair sex…

    He didn’t marry though was interested in having a relationship with a woman. Wikipedia says –

    In 1821, he fell in love with nineteen-year old opera singer, Caroline Richter (called Medon), and had a relationship with her for several years. He discarded marriage plans, however, writing, “Marrying means to halve one’s rights and double one’s duties”, and “Marrying means, to grasp blindfolded into a sack hoping to find out an eel out of an assembly of snakes.”

  6. Lanthanide 6

    I think it should be pretty clear that this special eftpos card to be issued to youth beneficiaries is simply the thin end of the wedge. Once it’s rolled out and implemented, it won’t be too long until it is rolled out to general DPB beneficiaries, probably the unemployment benefit and other benefit types like emergency assistance grants etc.

  7. prism 7

    Jokey Hen very revealing about acceptance of NZ inequality of living standards and opportunities this morning on Radionz.
    He says NACTs very concerned about children but they are just part of the concerns of the country. Now the advocates are breaking through this class-oriented approach to social justice to emphasising economic advantage. The smug and uncaring attitude that is a carry-over from our earliest colonial days may respond to this idea of more money and less problems to the country with positive assistance for the low income, low opportunity, low-skilled sector.
    One town has had zero youth unemployment as they have youth training programs and helping gain employment.

  8. Colonial Viper 8

    US MSM admits that it picks and chooses political candidate winners

    In the game of Ron Paul vs Michelle Bachmann, Michelle is pretty and electable, Ron is old, anti-establishment and to be ignored.

    • freedom 8.1

      it is getting downright surreal how direct the networks’ statements on media manipultion are becoming, yet the sheeple still go Baaaaachmann even though six months ago they hadn’t heard of her, just like that other luminary who was going to lead their future: ex 1/2 term Governor, Sarah ‘proud ally of north Korea’ Palin

      here is a repost of a FoxNews nationwide poll FoxNews removed from the FoxNews site

      and at $30 a ticket to have the right to vote at the debate, and Poll rules allowing Candidate’s to give away voting tickets to supporters, and the vast wealth of Bachman’s network compared to Paul’s it does lead the question:
      How many honest votes did Ron Paul actually win the Straw Poll by?

  9. aerobubble 9

    Moderate alcoholic drinking is good for a person.
    Drinking is a social lubricator, often how many people get jobs is over a pint.
    Drinking is cultural, even part of religious and most certainly a social activity for families
    who use wine at the diner table.
    Alcohol is a cheap medicine, mouth wash for the elderly, even keeps bugs at bay.
    If i eat something slightly off a swig of brew always helps.

    Now add to this, the benefit cannot keep people in alcohol, enough to binge.
    Kids on the benefit can’t by alcohol so why is Key justifying it.
    And if kids are getting alcohol its from others.

    So what a creepy policy.

  10. millsy 10

    The solution to the issue of youth welfare ‘dependency’ is simple.

    Throw the international students out of our schools and force them to focus on kiwi students, agressively monitoring those at risk of dropping out.

    • Ianupnorth 10.1

      Problem there Millsy; the foreigners are bringing in big bucks; I think there are about 2% overseas students at my kids high schools, and they bring learning opportunities for lots of students at the school, without the dollars the school budget would be hammered (although saying that they wouldn’t need to employ the couple of staff overseeing them).

      • millsy 10.1.1

        Well then the government should be funding our schools more.

        Fact: Schools are catering to international students at the expense of our own. They must be chucked out yesterday.

        We never had this nonsence before Tomorrows Schools in 89 and our school system was OK. They just focused on New Zealand students

        • Lanthanide

          “Fact: Schools are catering to international students at the expense of our own. They must be chucked out yesterday.”

          I don’t think that’s the case at all.

          A principal from CHCH was on the radio talking about a loss of 40 international students due to the earthquake, which was almost $500,000 worth of funding they missed out on.

          Do you really think all that $500,000 would be spent on the 40 international students with none of it spent on locals? Because that’s what you’re asserting.

          • Ianupnorth

            have to agree, the international kids aren’t the problem, they are bringing in revenue by the bucket load, more than they expend; also the students are not dummies. My daughter has a German friend, a year younger than her, fluent in three languages, her English is excellent, she is in the top maths and science classes – kids like that are an asset, because they have a fantastic work ethic.

            • millsy

              The trouble is, if the international students bring in the money then the school starts putting them first, and the ones who are at risk of dropping out etc get left further and further behind, because all the attention is being lavished on the international students. (and because the schools want to push out the ‘dumb’ kids).

              Our schools need to put New Zealand kids first, and start realising that their purpose to to educate new zealand kids, not make a profit on the international student market.

              International students can be educated by the private sector.

              • Lanthanide

                Aside from ESOL courses, I didn’t see any special attention given to the international students in my high school.

                I think you’re imagining a problem that doesn’t really exist.

                “not make a profit on the international student market.”

                How exactly would a school make a “profit”? There are no shareholders. They don’t get to pocket the extra money themselves. Any school board that appropriated funds from the school for its member’s benefit would be committing fraud.

              • Vicky32

                International students can be educated by the private sector.

                Where they will get ripped off… I work when I can, as an ESOL teacher for private schools, all of which are thoroughly unethical cess-pits, hell-bent on getting fees, and nowt else. That’s bad enough for teens and adults, you want that for kids? (Not all international students are wealthy – in fact most aren’t).

      • Colonial Viper 10.1.2

        An additional problem is: why would you not want NZ children to associate with children from other countries? Are we going to also kick out foreign students from our universities, med and dental schools?

        I don’t have the numbers on hand, but NZ gets a lot of money from the education sector.

        “Youth welfare dependency” is also framing which doesn’t work. Like drug dependency. Blame the addict and blame the drug, right? So the answer is to victimise the young person and cut off the drug (the benefit). Some answer.

        We have an economy which is low in value, misallocates capital and does not produce decent paying jobs, either in the public sector or the private sector.

        IMO that’s the underlying disease, all this other running around is simply treating symptoms.

  11. Morrissey 11


    Proof that worshipping the Royal Family robs Britons of all taste and class

    Before the wedding of Prince William and Kate Middleton, a poll in Britain found that the favourite song that people would play at any street parties would be “Dancing in the Streets”.

    Sounds great, you think? Martha and the Vandellas! [1] Fantastic!

    But wait a minute! The poll means something else entirely. That’s right—what these Hello!– and News of the World-reading morons wanted was not Detroit’s finest femmes, but the most unhip cover [2] in the history of popular music (equal worst with Whitney Houston’s desecration [3] of “I Will Always Love You”[4])…

    Dancing in the street for Royal Wedding
    If you are planning a party to celebrate the Royal Wedding, then chances are you could be bopping along to ‘Dancing in the Street’. The Mick Jagger and David Bowie cover hit has topped a poll of songs that people would play at a street party to celebrate the Royal Wedding. …

    Read the rest of this indictment of the English HERE….

    [1] http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CdvITn5cAVc
    [2] http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9G4jnaznUoQ&ob=av2e
    [3] http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3JWTaaS7LdU&ob=av2e
    [4] http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gS-F4rfU4ns

    • The Voice of Reason 11.1

      Yep, that was the bookend that marked the completion of the ground breaking, literate and hip rock star phase of Bowie’s career and the start of the coke addled fool period. The only Mick he ever needed was Mick Ronson, possibly the greatest rock guitarist Britain ever produced.
      Happily, I understand that Dave is spending his time working on art, rather than trying to relive the glory days. Just for everything he did between 1965 and 1981 he deserves every happiness in his retirement. And the Western Springs gig in ’78 is still the best arena show I’ve ever seen. Only the Cramps rank higher for me in the great gig stakes, but that’s a different kinda rock entirely.
      Jagger, of course, remains a flannelled fool. Just ask Keith Richards.

      • Ianupnorth 11.1.1

        Woah, you saw The Cramps live – kudos mate; my claims to fame are The Ramones and The Dead kennedy’s

        • The Voice of Reason

          Happily, they played Auckland a few times in the mid eighties, Ian. First time I saw them was on my birthday, and the next time they came to town I saw them both nights. One or more of those gigs was the basis of the Rockin n Reelin in Auckland New Zealand rekkid. You know Lux died? I always thought he was what Elvis’s dead twin would have grown up to be.
          This is a superb live psychotic reaction and this is the last version of the band five years ago. And this is how all rock and gigs are meant to end.

      • Morrissey 11.1.2

        Let’s just hope Bowie never tries to dance again. Or Jagger.

  12. millsy 12

    “Are we going to also kick out foreign students from our universities, med and dental schools?”

    An education system focused on the needs of New Zealand students rather than attracting fee-paying international students will go a long way to ensuring that our young people arent left on the scrap heap.

    Case in point: At my local polytech our big spending CEO decided to spend millions of dollars on attracting international students about 10 years ago.

    He knocked down horticultural training gardens to build a student hostel to accomodate the Chinese students.

    He spent millions of dollars changing the name from Taranaki Polytechnic to WITT because appearently international employers wouldnt know what the hell a ‘polytechnic’ was.

    As a result, it almost went bankrupt and half the courses were shut down. A lot of our young people now have to leave town if they want a meaningful qualification

    • Colonial Viper 12.1

      While NZ primary and high school education remain strong, there are serious problems with the role and structure of our tertiary education institutions. Basically there needs to be a top to bottom review of what NZ society needs from those institutions in the 21st century.

      Within that context, the CEO you talk about sounds like he went on a money grab. The issue sounds like it was less about foreign students per se and more about their fees and ways he could shore up his bottom line (perhaps in the face of expected future funding pressures or budget cuts).

      Globalisation is fraught with dangers and in many cases just plain damaging. However, I feel that giving NZ children the opportunity to meet and study alongside young people from other cultures is generally a good thing.

      The other point I would make is that all the best tertiary training or education in the world is of no help at the moment. Our economy does not udecent jobs for young people, whether they are school leavers or marketing graduates. So young people come out of these courses still unemployed, but with the extra bonus of student debt.

      • millsy 12.1.1

        ” I feel that giving NZ children the opportunity to meet and study alongside young people from other cultures is generally a good thing.”

        Quite, thats why we have historically had student exchanges and scholarships for those from developing countries (the Colombo Plan I think it was).

        If we are going to have students from overseas study at our schools and tertiary institiutes, I would much rather it be as part of the above.

    • Ianupnorth 12.2

      Similar happened here – where an institution with similar letters are still actively recruiting in India and now Turkey! CEO is a clot, but fortunately departing to Brisbane, their loss, our gain!

  13. grumpy 13

    Funny, can’t find anything today about Global Warming…….

    • Zorr 13.1

      tbh grumpy… was going to make a sarcasm post this morning when I woke up and saw snow for the first time at this property in the 30+ years of my life… but obviously you beat me to it

      Climate change predicts these kinds of extreme weather events. Congratulations on being a moron.

      • grumpy 13.1.1

        Oh, yes, of course it does……now the names been changed from Global Warming to Climate Change. Had to really….eh???

        • Colonial Viper

          Just like the Global Financial Crisis is going to be renamed the Great Collapse. Doesn’t mean it’s any better…quite the opposite, likely.

          • KJT

            No. It is still AGW to those who are grounded in reality. Because that is what it is. Global warming caused by human atmospheric pollution.

            You can show that increasing carbon dioxide retains heat on a kitchen table experiment.

            Do you really think if there was any credible scientific rebuttal to AGW some bright researcher wouldn’t have claimed the millions on offer from Exxon and other well funded self interested denialists.

            Do you want to bet the future of humanity on the ignorant and unscientific BS from Moncton et-all. The same group who reckon tobacco is good for us.

      • Vicky32 13.1.2

        Climate change predicts these kinds of extreme weather events. Congratulations on being a moron.

        Ok, this is the only issue on which I agree with grumpy. How exactly does climate change formerly known as global warming ‘predict’ these events? Tell me how extra carbon dioxide in the air as some guy said on Facebook cause extreme cold? The last time I asked to be educated on this (non)-issue, I just got sarcasm and abuse, and was eventually told that I am in the pay of Big Oil (I wish!) and to “look it up” myself…

        • grumpy

          Perhaps lprent who got his 36th degree in “earth sciences” could help us out here???

          • lprent

            ..lprent who got his 36th degree in “earth sciences”..

            First degree.

            I’m sure this has been answered (I’ve been down with a cold). But is pretty simple. Just think of the atmosphere and oceans as being a energy transfer of heat mechanism – pretty much what you see when cook with the heat only on one side. Weather is a way of moving heat from areas that have too much to areas that have too little and vice versa. Winds, air masses, and currents do this using various means as a result of the effects of their stored energy. Low and high pressure systems in the atmosphere, and salinity and density differences in the oceans.

            It is an obvious consequence of a planet that receives relatively less energy per air molecule or land area in its polar regions than it does in the equatorial regions that it has inequalities in the stored atmospheric and ocean energy. So we have weather through heat transfers. The axial tilt just makes that more extreme.

            So if on top of that, you make the atmosphere more efficient at holding heat, then the proportional differences between the cold areas and warm areas will get more extreme. That is because the polar regions while also getting more efficient at storage also receive less energy to start with. The higher the imbalance between the regions, the more energy is available to move air masses around. So they tend to happen faster and mover further and with greater differences (ie wind speeds).

            Now the absolute differences are not that much. But climate and weather have a delicate balance normally anyway. You only have to look at the effects that the minor shift of the el nino/ la nina ocean current effects have on global weather. So you get more extreme local effects and changes in climate.

            You’ll note that movement of air masses will involve cold and warm air masses moving around, just as it does now. It just tends to have more extreme events as far as we’re concerned.

        • McFlock

          Here, here, and here.

          • grumpy

            …”there is some evidence”….and….”suggests”…. does not seem to me that “the science is settled”.

            • McFlock

              And evolution is “just a theory”.
              When a politician says “there is some evidence”, they’re making shit up. When a scientist says it, they’re pretty confident that it’s on the right track. learn the difference.

              • Vicky32

                And evolution is “just a theory”.

                Please don’t be a prat, McFlock. Not all global warming sceptics are ‘anti-science’…
                Rather uncomfortably I agree with Grumpy when he says “”there is some evidence”….and….”suggests”…. does not seem to me that “the science is settled”.”

                • Colonial Viper

                  Humans have to take action on incomplete knowledge. On global anthropogenic climate change the evidence is already 90%-95% in.

                  The nice thing about acting now instead of waiting later is that we get a lot of different benefits: new clean technologies, green industries, making more efficient use of our finite energy resources, transitioning to a de-industrialising civilisation etc.

                  It just so happens that we also get the best change of staving off a potential extinction level event by acting earlier rather than later.

                  btw it’s my opinion that energy depletion (hits hard in next 15 years causing massive geopolitical strife) will screw civilisation before climate change (hits hard in 80-120 years from now).

                  • Humans have to take action on incomplete knowledge. On global anthropogenic climate change the evidence is already 90%-95% in.

                    How complete is the knowledge of how effective any counter measures will be?

                    • The Voice of Reason

                      Who cares? The point is that we made this mess and we have to sort it out.

                    • In order to sort it out it sort of matters what will be effective, or even if there’s anything we can do that will be effective.

                    • McFlock

                      Another Yes Minister, as I recall:

                      Standard Foreign Office response in a time of crisis.
                      In stage one we say nothing is going to happen. 
                      Stage two, we say something may be about to happen, but we should do nothing about it.
                      In stage three, we say that maybe we should do something about it, but there’s nothing we *can* do.  [PeteG asking whether countermeasures will be effective, in his eternally passive-aggressive way]
                      Stage four, we say maybe there was something we could have done, but it’s too late now.

                • KJT

                  Science! Is never settled. Nothing is 100% probability until after the fact.

                  When there is 95% probability that something is occurring though you can pretty much say it is a certainty within the limits of our knowledge. A scientific theory, rather than a hypothesis.

                  There is a high probability that the fluid dynamics that keep a plane in the air, work as scientists think they do.

                  We can say that evolution is by far the most likely explanation for variation and changes in species.

                  We can also say that AGW is the most likely explanation by far for changes observed in temperatures, glaciation, ice cover and species distribution.

                  It is OK to be sceptical, but to deny something when almost all the available evidence points towards it is just stupid. Like the US republicans voting that AGW does not exist.

                  When I fly in a plane I prefer to think that the scientists and engineers have got their calculations right. I rely on the same science that tells us AGW is most likely happening.
                  I would not rely on some politicians opinion.

                • McFlock

                  No, the “theory” example is quite pertinent, because most established scientists would probably rather chop their own leg off than say “we have definitively proved XYZ”, especially on the macro level. The reason being that their career is down the toilet when the inevitable counterexample is published.
                  “Suggests” generally means “we reckon this is the cause, but there might be a decent counter-hypothesis against it lurking out there somewhere so we’ll hedge our bets”. “Inconclusive” means “oh okay, we know that there IS another explanation, and we can’t pick between the two”.
                  I don’t think it is so much “anti-science” as pop-science missing nuances of expression, simply because grumpy doesn’t have a $300k grant application depending on him not being publicly discredited in the next 2 months.

        • KJT

          Pretty simple really. The more energy/heat you put into a system, the more unsettled it becomes.

          Look at a kettle on a hot gas flame. All sorts of whirlpools of hot and cold.

          Heat water slowly on low and it warms through gradually without all the whirlpools and bubbling.

          More extreme weather, on average, is exactly what you would expect with AGW.

          • The Voice of Reason

            Awful, awful segment on Mora’s show this arvo. Some meatheaded CCD’er on the show for ‘balance’, who the two panellists agreed with every step of the way. To be fair to Mora, he didn’t join in with the dumbfest, just prodded the participants occasionally when their non-comprehension started getting dangerously close to parody.

    • Jum 13.2


      Not to mention The Shock Doctrine which tells us in some detail the current and future plans for New Zealand by America’s man JKeyll and his masters.

      Disaster capitalism is very useful for turning people’s misery to money’s benefit. Just ask Friedman – page 5 of the chapter called Blank is Beautiful where his philosophy of using disaster to benefit private business – privatising schools, firing teachers and installing the bulk funding regime to weaken the staff’s employment rights in this case.

      Christchurch is now a blank slate; the people are weakened and suffering still – perfect for a Friedman takeover.

      Key a friend of Friedman’s philosophy on using disaster to create a paradise for private interests over people’s future welfare?

      • grumpy 13.2.1

        Hi Jum,

        Funnily enough, the snow didn’t bring me out in deep thoughts about the Friedmanite school of economics. Strange that.

        If it had I would probably have thoughts about the frigid approach to humanity and the desolate wasteland it leaves behind.

        Mind you, I still have my Samuelson text books so am a bit behind the times.

        But, now you mention it, there is bugger all between “Global Warming”and Friedman theories. Both suffer from blind faith adherents, both believe the “science is settled” and both lead to economic ruin.

        • KJT

          AGW has evidence to support it.

          All the evidence so far shows Freidmanite economics is bullshit.

        • Oscar

          We’re heading into Global Cooling. Unfortunately, because of the wishy washy-ness that is/was AGW/Global Warming etc, “Climate Change/Challenge/Crap” has become the new buzzword.

          It’s not a change. It’s not a challenge. The theory is crap.

          Snow in Auckland in… 1931, 1976, 2011. Looks like a 35 year trend between each of those events.

          Hmm, couldn’t be a cyclical event could it? No, that’s just a preposterous idea. These “unusual” weather events are solely caused by mankind managing to put out CO2 by burning natural fuels such as coal, oil and wood, which is carbon neutral as it’s already taken CO2 from the atmosphere when it was exceedingly higher than current.

          Now that Co2 levels are starting to rise very slowly, expect far more winter storms until James Hansen’s excellent paper “Climate Process and Sensitivity” is reviewed yet again, and some smarter cookie realises that the feedback mechanisms prevalent in that paper actually relate to extreme cooling on a global scale rather than warming.

          After all, I’ve said on this site before (and been lambasted for it) that Wellington would see snow this year.

          • KJT

            Average temperatures worldwide going up = global cooling.

            Less ice in the at the poles every year almost year on year (ice free access in the NW passage for the first time in recorded history) = Global cooling.

            Yeah right!

            Where has that “smart cookie” been. There is a fortune waiting for him.

            • grumpy

              No, no……they’re just “weather events”…..unless, of course, they support the warmist’s theories, in which case they become “climate change”.

              • KJT

                I suggest you look up the difference between “weather” and long term trends.

                One “weather event” does not show a trend.

                A whole pattern of increasingly violent/or less violent “weather events” over time does.

                • Colonial Viper

                  Grumpy probably can’t remember what he had for breakfast 3 days ago (I know I can’t).

                  You’re asking way too much with this ‘keep in mind long term trends’ stuff 😛

            • RedLogix

              Not to mention the record heat wave in the US, or the record high average May and June temperatures here in NZ this year.

              This is just a weather event. A remarkably cold one for sure, but what everyone is forgetting is how pleasantly warm it was just a few days prior. I was wandering around the Tararua tops a few days ago in not much more than a t-shirt.

              Let’s get this clear. Snow is the result of cold air at ground level lifting up masses of relatively warm moist air above it. Absolutely both conditions must be present.

              What is interesting is that we are getting both conditions because the oceans around us at present are quite warm, so there is plenty of moisture about. At the same time we are getting these massive high pressure systems that are so large they plunge past the circum-polar wind patterns that normally keep polar air away from us, which are bringing these huge surges of cold air up into our latitudes.

              Bear in mind too that when this cold polar air moves north, it MUST be being replaced by warmer sub-tropical air moving south to balance it out. So while little NZ is getting it colder for a few days, the southern Antarctic latitudes must be warmer than normal.

              Climate change? Maybe. It is consistent with the idea that more energy trapped into the weather system will cause more dramatic events, with more energetic mixing of systems. But as with anything to do with climate, one event is neither conclusive, nor irrelevant. It is the pattern and the trend that matters.

  14. tc 14

    Yup and Country Calendar on saturday had yet again more comments on changing unreliable rainfall patterns and water levels fluctuating in steams way beyond anything known previously. But hey with NACT it’s put head in sand and breath deeply… to generational farmers of the same land.

    Not that this farmer was complaining with his truck come horse float/caravan they sold the bach to fund…..the gap just keeps growing.

  15. randal 15

    Am very perturbed at the report this morning about the man who was nearly convicted for asking people to leash their dogs on Mount Kaukau.
    They called the cops.What is going on here. Nobody in New Zealand can calla spade a spade or tolerate any restricitions on their behaviour. Having a choice means anything you choose to do is okay and if you have disposable income then you are a superior person if not an actual aristocrat.
    worst of all any social problems are sent to the cost accountants first and any empathy or insight is trampled by the hordes running to get the government funded contract.
    Hey New Zealand the way you want it.

  16. Colonial Viper 16

    i couldn’t connect to the Std for about half an hour there – anyone else have the same issue? Wondering if its just my internet.

    • Carol 16.1

      I could connect to the Standard and some other sites, but not to one other or to Twitter. Got a “network error: cannot connect to DNS Server’ message

      • Colonial Viper 16.1.1

        Thanks Carol. I couldn’t connect to The Std or Red Alert, but I could to Stuff. Google would do international searches, but I couldn’t reach many international sites.

        Damn peculiar.

        I’m going to have to start recording the IP addresses of my fav sites so that I can still reach them even if the domain name system goes down.

    • freedom 16.2

      I lost complete connection for 45 minutes around lunchtime. No access to anything anywhere. was all running fine then connection just dissapeared
      Got the DNS error when running a diagnostic, saying could not find microsoft.com (don’t we wish!)

    • grumpy 16.3

      Sure you’re not in moderation 🙂

  17. ‘Celebration of freedom of expression’ and support of Ian Wishart’s highly controversial book ‘Breaking Silence’.
    Tuesday, August 16 · 11:30am – 1:30pm
    Outside Whitcoulls 210 Queen St Auckland City

    Full credit to Whitcoulls bookstores for NOT bowing to intimidatory threats and allowing customers to choose whether or not we want to read for ourselves ‘Breaking Silence’ – which will be available from Tuesday 16 August 2011. Those who wish to celebrate and support both the book ‘Breaking Silence’ and Whitcoull’s principled stand ( profits from the sale of ‘Breaking Silence’ will be donated to charity) are very welcome to attend. (The Police have been advised of this ‘gathering’). Macsyna King – MOTHER – key Police witness who has never been charged, let alone convicted of any offence regarding the deaths of HER baby sons – has the lawful right to TELL her story. Award-winning investigative journalist Ian Wishart has the lawful right to WRITE her story. We the public have the lawful right to buy and READ this story. End of story.
    Look forward to seeing you there! 🙂
    (For more background information :FACEBOOK: ‘Break the Kahui Code of Silence..’ )
    Penny Bright

    • Jum 17.1

      Penny Bright

      The interesting thing about Ian Wishart is his Investigate magazine. He now has a His on one side and a Hers on the other, with different pictures, which implies that men and women cannot handle the same sort of article. Oh dear – is he starting to force men and women into role play when all they actually require is OBJECTIVE articles from all media outlets – a failed enterprise in New Zealand.

      Mind you the article he wrote about Helen Clark is an exercise in how he sees women as either evil because they aspire to be leaders or moneymakers which is what King is. I used to think he was a brilliant investigative reporter. Unfortunately, he is not an objective one and he only seeks to “tell the truth” when it suits him.

      You lose my respect when you side with him at all.

      You still have my respect over your fight against private water ownership/contracts.

      • Penny Bright 17.1.1

        It doesn’t matter WHAT you think of Ian Wishart. The principle here is one of support for FREEDOM OF EXPRESSION. End of story. Without freedom of expression – politically – you have nothing. WHO WILL BE NEXT if a stirred up lynch mob – who haven’t even READ the book – through unlawful threats against persons and property – help force some bookstores not to stock a book? This is a HUGE issue – which is why I have spent the last 6 weeks fulltime helping to fight the hatred and bigotry against MOTHER Macsyna King who is trying to help expose the Kahui Code of Silence and help get justice for HER murdered baby sons. If you want more information / informed debate on the issues – check out FACEBOOK: ‘Break the Kahui Code of Silence..

        • chris73

          You might want to get your keyboard checked out, I think you have a problem with your caps lock

        • Jum

          Penny Bright,

          Actually, to me, it does matter what I think of Ian Wishart; his past political attacks on Helen Clark and his bad conclusion analysis proves a risky ask for me to listen to anything he says. You can. Go right ahead. I’ve been there; he wasn’t worth it.

          The whole case gives this government just another excuse to shut down on treating any beneficiaries as human beings. If you follow Wishart’s past campaigning for the conservative right you will understand there is another agenda for him. Like I said, tho’, just my opinion. Freedom of expression I am willing to fight for. Agendas of the right and the religious extremists; that’s quite another fight I’m not willing to pay lip service to.

          • Penny Bright

            “Freedom of expression I am willing to fight for”. So we’ll see you outside Whitcoulls tomorrow then Jum? 😉

            • mik e

              There are plenty of places to buy this book personally I would rather have a free pizza

            • Jum

              Penny Bright

              Sorry, not in the CBD yesterday. Whitcoulls isn’t that the place that rehired people on less wages? Then we had people criticizing those workers for complaining about it. Great divide and conquer politics going on in NZ. Worker against worker. Key and Joyce will be loving it.

  18. Vicky32 19

    3 News making excuses for Jokey Hen again… are we sure Murdoch doesn’t own them already?
    How wonderful they think his new anti-youth plan is!

  19. tc 20

    Murdoch, private equity, goldman Sachs ….they all follow their masters wishes, or get sacked. That loan was effectively buying their support via joyces association.

  20. Jum 21

    How convenient that the Herald is sending 8 weeks worth of free Heralds out to people, when it coincides with NAct’s big conference and various other news items which the rightwing thieves and liars can latch on to to use their asset stripping and freedom stripping and dignity stripping laws on.

    It’s all about framing the lie to NActMU’s advantage for the Herald isn’t it.

  21. prism 22

    A startling figure of deaths in custody of British youth, I think non-white. It is up to a thousand with no convictions against police, no jail sentences. Just heard that on radionz.

  22. vto 23

    Unexpected earthquake observation #1,001;

    That the earthquakes would move back west to whence they came .

  23. jackal 24

    No Thank You Peter Goodfellow

    Recently the National parties Website underwent an extensive and flashy make over giving more emphasis on appearance rather than substance. As well as unashamedly promoting John Key’s smile and wave policy, a request to donate to the blue team became a key feature of the redesign…

    • Draco T Bastard 24.1

      Recently the National parties Website underwent an extensive and flashy make over giving more emphasis on appearance rather than substance.


      It’s never had any substance 😛

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