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Open mike 16/01/2021

Written By: - Date published: 6:00 am, January 16th, 2021 - 35 comments
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35 comments on “Open mike 16/01/2021 ”

  1. gsays 1

    I have been musing on the different ways, the family/whanau unit has evolved. In particular the pakeha/nuclear approach.

    It has gotten to the point that we sub-contract our love and attention to those at the start of life and at the end. Early Childhood Centres have widened the ages they take clients and the hours they provide care. Similarly retirement villages are expanding and profitting (not just from property values rising).

    My reckons make it post WW2 when any sort of extended family under one roof started to decline. The value of 3 or more generations under one roof is diverse.

    Young children seeing first hand, someone aging, faculties diminish and having their needs change. Death or end of life can be demystified. The other side of that coin is the unique relationship between a grandparent/tupuna and mokopuna/grandkids.

    The knowledge, wisdom, love and time we lock away and visit when we can, is one of the weaknesses in our society and a major failing of this neo-liberal experiment.

    • Sabine 1.1

      Shall the women who have previously provided that child hood care and that elder care and that sick care (many of whom still are primary care givers ) be paid? Or like in the old days that will just be decreed 'womens work' and thus ……..? This is a serious question. Because as far as i can see, this is still a problem even today.

      I don't disagree that the nuclear family is the biggest crook on earth, but the only reason many women can actually earn money rather then depend on a bloke for housing and feeding (and that is it in a nutshell) came about with women going to work. We started with latch key kids, or grandparents kids in the late sixties and seventies to now early child hood care etc. Take that away and we are going back to the dark ages for women. In all the rosy colored views to yesteryears i would like to point that out.

      Btw, currently women who are unemployed (and men too) will be denied an individual unemployment benefit if the partner still has earnings. This is despite them paying into the system as an individual.

      And not every family is happy go larry so as to live peacefully under one roof. What was more common was that everyone lived close together, so that if parents had to work, kids could go to Nan, or Aunty. While today, people live all over the place often times due to work demands. WE do n't all work in the same factories as did my Nan and her sons in the seventies. And she raised her three sons (the girls by then had moved out and married) in a 1.5 bedroom, 55 sqm apartment. It was not easy.

      • Rosemary McDonald 1.1.1

        And not every family is happy … so as to live peacefully under one roof.

        Given our nation's rates of child abuse and murder and domestic violence it would be an interesting exercise to see if there is any relationship (intended) between the incidence of these crimes and the number of generations living in or very close to those households.

        In these dysfunctional families the presence of close family just might be an exacerbating factor. A superficial scan of my memory banks suggests that many of these crimes are being committed in a multi-generational/extended family environment.

        • Sabine

          and again, one can live multi generational without living in the same house, by living near by. In my childhood in germany my whole family lived in subsidised housing. Thus when we came from school and mum was out (in my case alcohol), we would go to Nan, or Aunty Dodi, or Aunty Rosemarie, or Aunty Petra. All in a 100 mtr circle. Everyone however had their own apartment the size of that of my Nan.

          I think that violence can and will appear in over crowded housing as much as it can happen in a nice rich family with plenty of space but overcrowding with not enough resources such as food, clothing, and even just some space for homework will increase the chance of domestic violence, but i am sure that GSays thinks more along the idea that these families would all live in 8 bedroom houses on a acre of land…………like in the fourties or something when no one in NZ was poor – other then the single women with children (including widows), maori, others that were not male, white, in a union job and heterosexual.

      • gsays 1.1.2

        "Shall the women who have previously provided that child hood care and that elder care and that sick care (many of whom still are primary care givers ) be paid? Or like in the old days that will just be decreed 'womens work' and thus ……..? This is a serious question. Because as far as i can see, this is still a problem even today."

        I agree with the crux of yr point. Since the '60sI would observe males have been able to move into that nurturing space, albeit not in the numbers needed.

        We have a very long way to go as the care work, work that was highly lauded during Covid, is criminally underpaid.

        As to the financial side of your first paragraph, that is where a UBI/GMI would be morally justified.

        As to the second paragraph, I am in a situation where my significant other is the primary 'provider'. There are more and more of families like this.

        I think the situation you describe "rather then depend on a bloke for housing and feeding (and that is it in a nutshell) came about with women going to work." is as much to do with relationship dynamics as to do with society at large.

        Yes, it isn't all rainbows and unicorns in an extended whanau arrangements, but this is where a chance for tolerance, acceptance and resilience to grow.

        Life Lesson: It can't always be your way. ( The royal 'you', not you, Sabine, in particular).

    • Sacha 1.2

      My reckons make it post WW2 when any sort of extended family under one roof started to decline.

      Some of the non-white cultures who have settled here since are strong in their multi-generational living traditions. A lot of our policy and infrastructure has not kept pace.

      • gsays 1.2.1

        I work in a Senior Lifestyle Village. Exclusively 'white' clientele.

        In a related vein, I didn't notice any/many non 'white' voices in favour of the recent euthanasia discussions. I feel there is a link to the traditional ways of living.

        • Forget now


          I am part Ngapuhi, and was certainly advocating for the assisted suicide referendum last election. Though I might not have been commenting much on TS at the time.

          Some in my whanau were receptive, others not. Though, to be fair, our Pounamu hapu is pretty detached from Northland "traditional ways of living".

          • gsays

            Cheers, Forget Now, I am always happy to have the reckons checked, especially around these affairs.

            It is kinda fraught to paint with such broad strokes, like there is a singular Maori lens.

    • Heather Grimwood 1.3

      To gsays at 1 : I agree absolutely with your comments.
      I’ve watched the proliferation of retirement villages and homes for decades, and to my mind would be very hard for person to keep from being regimented at least eventually.
      I agree that intergenerational living, in same house or nearby is the ideal.
      I know I would enter a fast downward path if in any of these fast -escalating institutions.

      • Macro 1.3.1

        I know I would enter a fast downward path if in any of these fast -escalating institutions.

        There is always the possibility of escape!

        • Heather Grimwood

          to Macro at 1..1 : Dreams are free ! but didn’t greatly enjoy first and only attempt at hanggliding with family and their friend decades ago on St Kilda beach. Enjoyed your reply.

    • weka 1.4

      lots of good stuff there gsays. It seems like there is a solution to the housing crisis here too, we need models of landsharing from outside of Pākehā culture.

      • gsays 1.4.1

        So many pluses.

        Now my Mum is needing more care and attention it is making wonder what her and my immediate and medium future looks like.

  2. Anne 2

    It's happened in the Netherlands and it could easily happen here. In fact on a smaller scale it has happened here:


    The same old story. Officious little Hitlers with control over vulnerable people throwing their weight around and destroying their lives.

    I can't speak for our modern day Public Service, but there were plenty of those types around in the 70s and 80s.

    • Brigid 2.1

      Oh I can assure you there were plenty about during the 90s and 2000s and there's no reason to expect there still aren't today because successive governments have chosen not to root them out. Since this government has mostly ignored the WEAG report there's not much hope of anything changing any time soon.

      • Anne 2.1.1


        I was one of those on the receiving end of Winz in the 1990s when Christine Rankin and her gang were goose-stepping all over beneficiaries. I was looking after my elderly Mum who was in her 90s.

        It was Helen Clark's first act as PM – ie. get rid of Ms Rankin.

    • Treetop 2.2

      Now there is talk of compensating the people who they accused of ripping off the Dutch government.

      • Treetop 2.2.1

        The article did not say if the Dutch government were going to reimburse the entitlement as well as offer compensation.

        Compensation needs to be for everything from having to sell your home, being defamed and any other financial stress related to the government muck up.

        • Anne

          Character assassination by malevolent bosses – and others of similar ilk – were par for the course during the 25 plus years I was a Public Servant. Apologies and compensation didn't exist and as far as I can tell they still don't exist.

  3. Adrian Thornton 3

    Yet another MSM media outlet gets caught lying in what was for all intents and purposes a pro war (intervention in Syria) pod cast… yes NYT caught lying for war yet again, and of course there will be little to no consequences to those involved because as we all know no one gets into trouble promoting war unlike those who fight against war like Assange…

    'New York Times' Retracts Core Of Hit Podcast Series 'Caliphate' On ISIS


  4. Adrian Thornton 4

    Here is a very good and quite in-depth interview with Nils Melzer, the UN Special Rapporteur on torture on the US attempt to extradite Julian Assange and the history behind that, going right back to the initial rape allegations.

    If you are actually interested in the fight for free speech, transparency in power and journalistic freedoms then this is a must watch…

    • Morrissey 4.1

      Has that highly paid United Nations functionary Helen Clark ever uttered a word of support for this political prisoner?

      • Adrian Thornton 4.1.1

        Of course not,she has always been proudly part of the establishment.

        It reminds me of something I have been thinking about lately (for a while actually) it is about time we really start enforcing the demarcation between free market liberals like Clark, Ardern, Biden, Starmer etc and the term Left. while there is some cross over, they are two different ideologies and the general public need to be made aware of this fact.

        Corbyn got caught badly in his last election by Boris, having to answer for the damage that the Liberal New Labour had caused, when he should never have allowed himself to be tied to their legacy by establishing that demarcation as soon as he took over the party.

        • Morrissey

          Corbyn's mistake was his disastrous decision to play nice to Yenta Hodge, Lord John Mann, Tom Watson and the rest of that implacable Blairite rump that has ruined the Labour Party.


          • Tiger Mountain

            Agree, Jeremy should have used his popular membership support, and gone in hard on such people, and instituted deselections of various sitting MPs and candidates. Some say organisational solutions to political problems are a no no–but it usually those on the receiving end!

            A lean mean socialist machine could have won for Mr Corbyn, if he added a simple Brexit policy rider–Labour would respect the result, and, promptly institute his “For the many not the few” platform.

            NZ Labour was always backwards in coming forwards re Jeremy Corbyn, and it shows where their ideological position truly is at–Blairism.

            • Adrian Thornton

              Yes he would have won or was at least a lot more likely to have won had he done those things, however I also think that if he had been in power during Covid, the UK media would have absolutely ripped him and Labour to pieces (including the Liberal press who proved that they hated him more, or as much as the Right wing press), so in a way I am kind of thankful that Corbyn avoided that onslaught….can you imagine the way they would have been hysterically pinning every Covid death on him personally..yikes.

  5. Melanie Scott 5

    I can barely contain my rage and disgust at the front page article in the Herald today, fawning over one of the most evil men on the planet who has been allowed into the country because he is disgustingly rich. His name is James Ratcliffe and Rat suits him perfectly. He is an extreme right wing anti tax, pro Brexit fanatic who has made even more money out of the suffering and misery Brexit has brought to the UK, while moving himself to Monaco now that the UK has become such a shambles. He is truly evil.

    Then I read that the brother in law (not brother, the Herald can't even get that right) of Betsy DeVos, the worst US Secretary for Education, has arrived also. The DeVos family is notorious for being a Calvinist fundamentalist extreme right wing Trump funding with an appalling record for tax crime. Betsy DeVos' brother Eric Prince is the founder of the evil, notoriously corrupt and bloodthirsty security firm Blackwater which is guilty of many heinous crimes in Iraq. Why are we allowing these horrible people into our country. What is the Labour Govt doing?

  6. Forget now 6

    Too corrupt for New York? Try Texas.

    months after the New York state attorney general sued the organization over claims top executives illegally diverted tens of millions of dollars for lavish personal trips, no-show contracts for associates and other questionable expenditures…

    The NRA claimed in announcing the move that it was “in its strongest financial condition in years”, as it filed for chapter 11 bankruptcy in a Dallas federal court.

    “The move will enable long-term, sustainable growth and ensure the NRA’s continued success as the nation’s leading advocate for constitutional freedom – free from the toxic political environment of New York,” a statement said.

    The gun-rights group has about 5 million members. Headquartered in Virginia, it was chartered as a non-profit in New York in 1871 and is incorporated in the state.


  7. Stuart Munro 7

    The Business Roundtable, now hiding their heads in shame under the new name "The New Zealand Initiative" have produced a coherent and at least superficially plausible critique of practices like the NCEA.

    We may see a new batch of private education reform policies out of the Gnats as they struggle to find bits of wreckage to cling to rather than address their many failures to govern.

    I'd really like to see a Scandinavian teacher's perspective and recommendations in respect of this report – their education system being acknowledged as being both the most successful, and the most child friendly in the world.

    • Descendant Of Smith 7.1

      The biggest problem with that report is it ignores the relationship between parental income and educational achievement. That our educational outcomes have declined as inequity has grown should not be a surprise.

      It is silent on first improving economic conditions for families as a way of lifting educational achievement – instead it only mentions the reverse situation – that lifting educational achievement can lift future economic benefits. That is only true to some extent. The labour market continues to be both sexist, racist and provide limited opportunities to those with disability.

      Having gone to a school with vast resources and well-off parents then later sat on the board of a decile one school whose parents had no hope of paying the small school fees the difference and disparity was really, really obvious. When the children can't study at home in winter due to power disconnection, when you can't tie your shoe laces because you never had shoes prior to school, when you don't have access to the internet and so on, when you have to leave school when you are of age because the family needs your income – those things fixed will make an enormous difference.

      Not unexpectedly the Business Round Table is silent on these things. Like always they promise future benefits (e.g. a better future income, 20% per annum cost savings from privatisation) which never eventuate.

      Improving the now things e.g. better incomes for parents never enter their thoughts.

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