Open mike 17/09/2014

Written By: - Date published: 6:24 am, September 17th, 2014 - 237 comments
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237 comments on “Open mike 17/09/2014”

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  1. karol 1
    17 September 2014 at 6:50 am

    NSA tipped Key off in advance of Greenwald’s revelations about the GCSB. Andrea Vance reports:

    Ferguson’s admission backs up Snowden’s evidence about XKeyscore – but Greenwald argued Key cannot confirm it because he promised to resign in the event the GCSB was found to be carrying out mass surveillance.

    ‘‘The reason that John Key won’t admit what Mr Ferguson himself admitted … is because XKeyscore by its nature is a system of mass surveillance,’’ he said.

    Greenwald also said he believed the NSA tipped off the National-led Government about what was coming. The Pulitzer Prize-winning writer took his information to the US spy agency on Sunday.

    Following this, Key admitted the GCSB had proposed a programme of mass surveillance, which he canned in March 2013.

    ‘‘He clearly learned about the documents that we intended to publish that show that this had gone beyond the proposal stage and was partially implemented,’’ Greenwald said.

    • Rich 1.1
      17 September 2014 at 7:11 am

      Well how did Greenwald ‘take’ his information to the US spy agency on Sunday?

      Was he not here at the time?

      • karol 1.1.1
        17 September 2014 at 8:48 am

        In the digital age “taking it to” can mean contact via email, txt, phone, etc. Also, it could just have easily been “taken there” by people in other parts of the world working with Greenwald – Intercept people/editors/lawyers, etc.

    • Tracey 1.2
      17 September 2014 at 7:14 am

      I don’t know if thishas been discussed already but the Herald is reporting that

      “Questions from the Herald saw a spokeswoman for the Prime Minister saying the new GCSB law passed last year had nothing to do with “Initiative 7418″, the New Zealand name for Project Speargun.”

      Can someone direct me to the public statement that connects 7418 to “Project Speargun”, other than this one?

      • Colonial Viper 1.2.1
        17 September 2014 at 2:58 pm

        saying the new GCSB law passed last year had nothing to do with “Initiative 7418″, the New Zealand name for Project Speargun.”

        More lies from the PM’s office/PM.

    • Granted 1.3
      17 September 2014 at 10:12 am

      He never won a Pulitzer Prize.

      Please show a link to him on doing this.

      The newspaper he worked for did though.

      He just regurgitated stolen information

      Same ilk as Hager

      Of course in the public interest.

      Lets see if the public are interested on Saturday.

    • Tracey 1.4
      17 September 2014 at 2:38 pm

      April 2012

      noted the two options: 11.1

      Option I: extends NCSC protection to the core. public-sector, critical national infrastructure and organisations of national significance, provides an automated investigation capability and an “effects” defence option;

      11.2 Option 2 (includes Option I above), and the development of a Detailed Business case, the high-speed detection and defence capabilities to protect government and industry and potentially extends a degree of protection to allNew Zealanders to be developed in consultation with unD and the National Cyber Policy Office onCo);

      12 noted that the implementation of Option 2 is preferred, .but requires significant
      Scoping and consultation in order to identify…z

      . 13 agreed to extend the scope of the NCSC to cover central government, critical national infrastructure operators and specified organisations of national significance;

      14 agreed to proceed with Option I in paragraph 11.1 above ;

      Present: in HonJohn Key Hon Bill English (Chair) HDiiJudith Collins HDn Tony Ryall Hon David Carter Hon Panla Bennett Hon Craig EOSs Hon John Banks Distribution: Cabinet Conimittee

      2 Sept 2013

      noted that in 2012… directsd the GCSB to develop a detailed business case for implementation of Option 2 in 2013

      ..rescinded thle decision referred to in patagraph I above on the development of a detailed business case for Option 2; …..

      Karol

      When Key says he told them to stop in March 2013, do you know what he is referring to, cos this suggests he didnt rescind option 2 until September 2013? The gscb bill was passed in August 2013.

      It also means that the gcsb had been told to prepare a business case on option 2 in 2013. Key seems to be saying today that by September 2013, when they were told to stop, they had produced nothing?

      • Tracey 1.4.1
        17 September 2014 at 2:54 pm

        “.Key has said he canned a plan for mass surveillance in March 2013 because it was too intrusive. ”

        His own documents show the decision for a business plan for option 2 was rescinded in September 2013.

        Option two is what he must be relying on as being “project spearhead”, otherwise those documents do his claim no good.

        So, given option 2 wasnt rescinded until September 2013, the next question is

        If he canned the plan for mass surveillance in March 2013… What were the documents he released referring to?

  2. Local Kiwi 2
    17 September 2014 at 6:51 am

    When is someone in power going to impeach Key and his office for continuing to lie about his role as head of security and intelligence and his seedy record of widespread NZ intelligence harvesting & vague lack of details and TPPA agreements?

    This is another classic Nixon affair, where Nixon at least defended himself by continually kept saying “I have never lied” this sad sack of a man hides behind his power of his office and the MSM does nothing.

    • tc 2.1
      17 September 2014 at 7:02 am

      MSM are a growing part of the problem don’t expect them to step up as they are owned.

      • Paul 2.1.1
        17 September 2014 at 7:11 am

        MSM the third ‘track’ of Dirty Politics.
        Social media may become ( as it has in Scotland) the way to make the MSM irrelevant.

        • phillip ure 2.1.1.1
          17 September 2014 at 7:31 am

          the latest jaw-dropping example was key on tvone breakfast..(a few mins ago..)

          ..interviewed by the female co-compere..

          ..she got in a couple of fringe-flicks..and lotsa giggles..and blushes..

          (i half-expected her to rip her bodice open..and to offer herself up to key..)

          ..and it should be short-listed for softest-interview-of-the-year award..

          • Local Kiwi 2.1.1.1.1
            17 September 2014 at 8:00 am

            10000% Philip, shocking sop of host- Journo she Ali Pugh rates worst so far, shame on her.

          • vto 2.1.1.1.2
            17 September 2014 at 11:01 am

            Yep Pugh was useless.

            Here was Key, in defence of the reason he hadn’t told us they were planning and partly implementing mass collection of data saying … “blah blah blah governments look at all sorts of stuff all the time and I don’t think its feasible for a govt to explain everything it is considering and looking at to the public- I mean that just doesn’t make sense I reckon” …

            … useless Pugh then completely and utterly missed the obvious … “but this wasn’t just some everyday mundane matter was it Prime Minister, there was a review and implementation of new spy legislation so that information that you withheld was entirely relevant and intensely in the public interest. Wasn’t it Prime Minister.?”

            useless Pugh just went “yep”

            These useless interviewers actually make things worse. They allow the news to become distorted away from the truth.

            useless

            • Colonial Viper 2.1.1.1.2.1
              17 September 2014 at 3:00 pm

              Media repeaters, reinforcers and spokespeople for John Key

              • adam …
                17 September 2014 at 3:19 pm

                I wonder if the electoral commissioner will look into all the aggrandisement stories national are getting from the private media outlets?

                Nah silly me, electoral commission just likes banning songs.

                A question on Stuff

                Should the Planet Key song be allowed, especially so close to the election?

                just shy of 60% said – Yes, it’s free speech and artistic expression

                only 20% wanted it banned.

                With almost 12% just not caring.

                Mmmmmmmmmm – out of touch, fixing an election, writing the rules to suit one side over another?

        • Draco T Bastard 2.1.1.2
          17 September 2014 at 9:03 am

          Social media may become ( as it has in Scotland) the way to make the MSM irrelevant.

          We would still need investigative journalists. Probably ones that are funded by government rather than employed by media companies. They’d be fully independent and would report through the internet and broadcast.

          • TheContrarian 2.1.1.2.1
            17 September 2014 at 9:13 am

            “Probably ones that are funded by government rather than employed by media companies.”

            I think that would be just as problematic as being funded by private media organisations.

            • Draco T Bastard 2.1.1.2.1.1
              17 September 2014 at 10:41 am

              Just so long as the government doesn’t have any say about what the journalists investigate or publish and there’s no advertising involved it shouldn’t be.

              And, yes, private corporations do have a say in what journalists investigate and publish as admitted by Rupert Murdock.

              • TheContrarian …
                17 September 2014 at 10:54 am

                No one is denying private companies manipulate the news.

                And having the government fund journalists is a terrible idea. There would be immense pressure to give good reporting on the government of the day. If you think otherwise you are terribly naive

                • Puddleglum …
                  17 September 2014 at 1:14 pm

                  Hi TheContrarian,

                  I’d have to say that the reporting of Brent Edwards on (publicly funded) RNZ comes as close to objective in the MSM as anyone I’ve heard (or read).

                  He always lays out the logic of his analysis clearly and, if anything, is more likely to be critical of the current government, when warranted, than just about any MSM journalist from a private media outlet.

                  I take your point about purse strings but it’s perfectly possible to keep publicly funded institutions independent of the government of the day.

                  If it weren’t possible it would make you wonder why we trust publicly appointed judiciary in NZ. Perhaps there should be judges appointed by private interests to prevent government interference or pressure over their decisions?

                • Draco T Bastard …
                  17 September 2014 at 2:05 pm

                  And having the government fund journalists is a terrible idea.

                  No it’s not. In fact, it’s the only logical solution for journalism due to the fact that the corporations manipulate the news for their own ends.

                  There would be immense pressure to give good reporting on the government of the day.

                  Pressure that the journalists could then write about because the top down dictatorial control that we have now in the MSM and previously in NZBC just wouldn’t be there (Yes, I’m quite aware of how our broadcasting used to be manipulated by the government). I’m sure that real time reporting of such manipulation would result in the said government collapsing.

                  If you think otherwise you are terribly naive

                  Nope.

                  Oh, and I’m pretty sure that I’ve have seen people say that the private corporations don’t manipulate the news. Usually Actoid types exclaiming that privatisation and competition fixes everything.

                  • TheContrarian …
                    17 September 2014 at 2:52 pm

                    You have a terrible naive view of the state as a necessarily benevolent entity, Draco.

                    How about if the National Government were publicly funding journalists? What do you think the outcome would be?

                    • McFlock …
                      17 September 2014 at 3:05 pm

                      hosking? 🙂

                      But although I see your point, a government entity with ringfenced funding and statutory independence will always be less biased than an entity funded by corporate dollars and.or advertising revenue.

                      Neither will be perfect, but (even with hosking) tvnz is still miles better than fox news.

                    • Draco T Bastard …
                      17 September 2014 at 3:34 pm

                      What do you think the outcome would be?

                      If we’ve set up the funding right the same as if a Labour or Greens or Mana government were in place as the government wouldn’t be able to do anything to pressure the journalists without it becoming public knowledge.

                      All you really show here is your stupidity as you exclaim that something that obviously can be done can’t be done.

    • Draco T Bastard 2.2
      17 September 2014 at 8:55 am

      When is someone in power going to impeach Key and his office for continuing to lie about his role as head of security and intelligence and his seedy record of widespread NZ intelligence harvesting & vague lack of details and TPPA agreements?

      See, this is why we need the power of recall. So that protecting our democracy isn’t left solely in the hands of those that would corrupt it.

    • Sans Cle 2.3
      17 September 2014 at 10:35 am

      John Key on TV1 this morning (clip heard on RadioNZ newsclip with Guyon Espinor)
      In context of not disclosing work on the business case, WHILE debate raged in Parliament on the GCSB Bill.

      JK: “are we really saying the new standard now is every time I consider something, and ask a department to look at something, and then ultimately rest on this, we would have a public discussion about this? (this) is really a bit silly”

      At around 30 seconds in
      http://www.radionz.co.nz/national/programmes/morningreport/audio/20149924/it-specialist-discusses-nsa-request-to-have-wellington-office

      • Tracey 2.3.1
        17 September 2014 at 1:51 pm

        Key, joyce, banks and a couple of others authorised a business case into option 2 on or about 2012.

        In December 2013 the same group rescinded that decision…

        Key is telling us not a single document was produced by the GCSB between those times. I dont believe that.

  3. Rich 3
    17 September 2014 at 7:00 am

    I think there’s more to one of the issues raised over on the Flashback story, so I’m going to put it here to give it some air to breathe.

    7 years ago on the Standard this was asked;

    National on free speech

    Bryce Edwards 10
    15 October 2007 at 1:03 pm

    “Who are Francis Till, Jason Ede, Rhiannon White?

    It looks like they work for National MPs in Parliament. But shouldn’t this be a extra-parliamentary issues for the Party HQ?”

    I’m going to ignore Jason Ede for the moment but the other two are;

    Francis Till

    https://web.archive.org/web/20050212173229/http://till.co.nz/tillnet
    The working journal of Francis Till,
    an American writer freelancing
    in New Zealand and web editor of
    the National Business Review

    http://nz.linkedin.com/pub/francis-till/0/713/4aa
    Interesting list on his “Viewers of this profile also viewed…”

    Rhiannon White (linked from Francis Till’s linkedIN page)

    http://www.linkedin.com/pub/rhiannon-white/11/2a1/542?trk=pub-pbmap

    Director, Product Management (Advertising), Shazam Entertainment Ltd
    Menlo Park, California (San Francisco Bay Area) Online Media

    The two most obvious questions would be when did Till come into the country (i.e. did he come here at the same time as Key) and why does there seem to be seamless career path from NZ National Party propagandising to the Californian Entertainment industry.

    “Shazam Entertainment Limited is a media engagement company that connects people to the media through their mobile devices. The company offers Shazam, an application that connects people to the music, TV shows, and brands they love, as well as enables them to discover, explore, buy, and share; and allows them to share their discoveries on Facebook, Twitter, Whatsapp, Pinterest, and Google+”

  4. karol 4
    17 September 2014 at 7:11 am

    Andrea Vance has a second story out today, based on Greenwald interview:

    Greenwald exposes the way Key tried to mislead with the release of the CORTEX documents.

    What was implemented in its place was Cortex, a ‘‘bespoke’’ service offered to certain firms and government departments.

    Key has said this allows the GCSB to monitor only online communications into and out those organisations, and does not involve wholesale interception of the Southern Cross cable. This is the undersea link that carries all New Zealand’s internet traffic.
    [..]
    ‘‘There is no separate cable that carries communications only for certain parties in New Zealand.

    ‘‘Even if you believe the prime minister that this programme is limited – as he wants to claim it is – the only way that you could make any progress at all in guarding against cyber attacks or detecting malware is if you were monitoring vast amounts of traffic, which is a form of mass surveillance by definition.’’
    […]
    Greenwald points to Key’s suggestion, at the weekend, that the ‘‘bespoke’’ system involved new technology.

    However, the documents Key declassified on Monday night say that under Cortex the GCSB was not proposing to ‘‘procure or develop bespoke systems’’ and say ‘‘all of the technology has been in use for some time.’’

    Greenwald knows how to ask the right questions and just doesn’t uncritically accept every word out of Key’s slippery, slurry mouth.

    • Tracey 4.1
      17 September 2014 at 7:17 am

      Later today I will quote Option 1 here in full because it begun implementation in 2012 and was not rescinded the way Option 2 was.

      Option one talks about the “automated investigative capacity”

      Then there is Key deciding that the documents werent so secret anyway, not when his “reputation” was at stake… which means he could have released them during the GCSB Bill debate, but didn’t…

      “It also emerged yesterday the documents which Mr Key said he made public to protect his reputation threatened massive damage to New Zealand’s wellbeing if made public without permission, going by the GCSB’s own threat estimates.

      The four documents were previously marked at the “Secret” level of classification. The GCSB guide to security classifications says the “compromise” of “Secret” information could “damage the security, defence or international relations of New Zealand and/or friendly governments”.

      Mr Key’s office refused to explain the process for making the documents public but said the Prime Minister wasn’t concerned about danger arising from their losing “secret” classification”

    • Rosie 4.2
      17 September 2014 at 10:20 am

      “Greenwald knows how to ask the right questions and just doesn’t uncritically accept every word out of Key’s slippery, slurry mouth”.

      It’s been a real treat having him here in NZ, he is breath of fresh air and oasis of rational questioning and reporting. I hope our “journalists” are paying attention to what a real journalist looks and sounds like.

  5. travellerev 5
    17 September 2014 at 7:18 am

    On 9 November 2012 an “unauthorised and un-notified software change” to the “to the wavelength switching platform” was made on the Sydney side of the Southern cross cable. It caused a “catastrophic” internet outage. Was this when the software was implemented needed to spy on all of us?

    • Once Was Tim 5.1
      17 September 2014 at 8:35 am

      +1 @T
      This is but one of the reasons I find Ferguson’s claims, and the CEO of Southern Cross Cable just a little hollow. (I.e. the need for ‘deep sea divers’; and “I’d know about it”, etc.). I can’t remember when, but I do recall a contractor accidently ‘damaging’ the cable north of Auckland in the past. Elsewhere I commented on WDM (wavelength division multiplexing), thinking that with refinement some sort of like-technology (and with NSA’s investment in R&D etc.) a passive tap is not beyond the realms of possibility. Souther Cross also claim the cable is configured in a ‘self-healing’ configuration, so that minor interruptions (perhaps except at a couple of key points) can go unnoticed as long as customers are unaffected.
      The claims by both Ferguson and the CEO by their nature mean (if they’re genuine in there being ‘NO tapping’) assume they know what goes on by ALL their staff 24/7; or that they’re also being disingenuous and complicit. Aside from all that, tapping at router level …. the fact that elsewhere in the world it’s already acknowledged …. the coincidences of various visitors to the country …. the recent claim by Peters that an NSA presence in Auckland is certain and that he knows the address …. the fact that its in both Ferguson and the CEO’s interests to make such statements (in Ferguson’s case – his legacy; in the CEO’s – for business reasons) ….
      In short – hollow and deceitful – but then I guess they’re ‘protecting’ us aren’t they ??

      • travellerev 5.1.1
        17 September 2014 at 8:58 am

        To be fair to Ferguson, he stepped away from his job as GCSB director in 2011 and this happened in November 2012. I always suspected a bust up between him and John Key about the legality of spying on New Zealanders and Dotcom that made him step down before that happened. When that happened he was blamed but in fact it was Hugh Wolfensohn, who was the acting director, who authorized the illegal spying.

  6. North 6
    17 September 2014 at 7:36 am

    Increasingly Key’s feet have the appearance of clay. Increasingly the personal demeanour is anything but relaxed. Increasingly the emperor has no clothes. Resort to “loser” and “rather large butt” is pretty pathetic really. True, worshippers at The Temple of TheGodKey won’t be phased. Who cares ? Reflecting their own realities they’re in thrall to “selfie” in its fuller definition and it’s tribal.

    Of greater importance is the evergrowing sense across the nation at large that here’s a prevaricating wide boy who can’t be trusted. Check out the journalist’s robust “Why not ?” in the clip below. The manufactured gloss is tarnishing daily. ‘Challenege’ is in the air. That’s what matters electorally.

    If Saturday doesn’t see sufficient ‘YawnKey’ to scotch the specious royal honorific for strutting in Hawaii…….imagine the howls of derision when that does occur. Poor Madge. Expect she’s not gonna see it as a decent quid pro quo for Scotland……

    http://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/news/article.cfm?c_id=1&objectid=11325926

    • Tigger 6.1
      17 September 2014 at 9:38 am

      Watch Key’s mouth. His eyes don’t dart as much when he lies now, clearly been trained, but his mouth is doing lots of odd stuff.

  7. mike 7
    17 September 2014 at 7:47 am

    What is it you are all so desperately trying to hide that you are prepared to sacrifice NZ’s security for? The current biggest security threat to NZ is already in Australia and maybe here, but you all want to ignore that & knobble our security service?

    The Left will be the first to cry “why didn’t the government do something to protect us” if we are subject to an act of terror in NZ.

    • One Anonymous Bloke 7.1
      17 September 2014 at 7:57 am

      Sorry to burst your fearmonger bubble: the people who’ve been telling you it’s all about terrorism, in private, among themselves, they discuss economic espionage and intellectual property.

      They don’t give a toss if you get beheaded so long as they get paid.

    • One Anonymous Bloke 7.2
      17 September 2014 at 8:15 am

      We have already been subjected to a real act of terror (as opposed to just the government trying to terrify us) in New Zealand which the GCSB did nothing to protect us from.

    • Molly 7.3
      17 September 2014 at 8:58 am

      What makes NZ more likely to be a location for an act of terror?

      – Primarily acting as a stooge for the US which has committed long and sustained acts of terror against sovereign states for immoral and illegitimate reasons,
      – spying on other sovereign states that we are not in conflict with and using our location and access to allow others to do so;
      – sending our defence forces in at the request of the US despite there being no credible intelligence that indicates this approach will improve the living conditions of those countrymen or women. In fact, historical evidence shows that it usually results with deterioration of living conditions and increases the likelihood of extremist groups taking power;
      – using intelligence systems to spy on and target those who disagree with the government of the time, and use intimidation techniques to get them to change behaviours – even if they are legitimate and peaceful. When you remove the right to disagree by legitimate and peaceful means, you increase the likelihood that desperation will result in ramping up actions.

      In essence, failing to act like a sovereign state that upholds values such as human rights for all, and avoidance of unnecessary or ineffective conflict – is what is going to make us vulnerable to acts of terrorism.

    • adam 7.4
      17 September 2014 at 12:32 pm

      Mike, why are you promoting thugs and criminals to the role of terrorist? As they are thugs and criminals should not good old fashioned police work sort out the problem, where is the money for that solution? But no, lets go for fear, mixed with just a little xenophobia, and the desire to keep an addiction to snooping into people’s lives so we can spy. Life is not a James Bond novel – the cold war is over, criminals will say any old shit to make themselves look good. FFS grow up – this is about your rights and your freedoms – I thought the right wing supported those ideas.

    • Draco T Bastard 7.5
      17 September 2014 at 1:50 pm

      1. If we remain neutral and ethical we won’t be subject to acts of terror
      2. John Key’s and National’s kowtowing to what the US wants is increasing the chance of being subjected to acts of terror and other acts of retaliation from other states
      3. Mass surveillance doesn’t actually increase the chances that the police will intercept terrorists. It does mean that the government can pick up on people who disagree with them though which I’m sure you’re more than happy with (while the government is National).

    • Tracey 7.6
      17 September 2014 at 1:56 pm

      Please post your full name, address occupation and phone number. Then i will answer your question.

      [lprent: No pestering the trolls other commenters to out themselves. It is against house rules. ]

  8. phillip ure 8
    17 September 2014 at 7:50 am

    peters is just confirming on tv3 that the americans have a spooking-base in auckland..

    ..he knows the address..

    ..and he calls greenwald/snowden ‘totally credible’..

    ..and that key is lying..

    ..(he is 9.1% for preferred prime minister in reid research poll out this morn..three points behind cunnliffe..bloody hell.!..)

    • lurgee 8.1
      17 September 2014 at 8:02 am

      peters is just confirming on tv3 that the americans have a spooking-base in auckland..

      ..he knows the address..

      Ah, Winston, forever confused by the difference between what he wants to know, what he thinks he knows, and what he really knows …

      Still, this story is bubbling along nicely.

      • phillip ure 8.1.1
        17 September 2014 at 8:07 am

        he says he knows this from his time in government..

        ..and that is how he is so certain that key also knows all about it..

        ..and so once again..is lying to the people of nz..

        • weka 8.1.1.1
          17 September 2014 at 10:04 am

          someone should keep a list of the claims that Peters makes, and how many of them pan out in the way he implies

        • Bob 8.1.1.2
          17 September 2014 at 2:48 pm

          Phillip, he also said he knows the address because he used to ‘oversee them as Deputy Prime Minister’, what is he doing overseeing the NSA? He is old and confused.

      • Local Kiwi 8.1.2
        17 September 2014 at 8:20 am

        Lurgee,
        Funny your lack-shitless bullshit leader Lie-key has changed his position on the spooking-base/ surveillance issue daily.
        Key even forgot to tell us Kiwis he attends the shadow ops global Nazi founded Bilderberg group with a one world Government agenda controlled by them also?

        Who did you say was confused?

        • rich 8.1.2.1
          17 September 2014 at 9:22 am

          I had no idea the right wing concept of a one world government with Bilderberg associated would be so popular with someone commenting on a Labour (so kind of left) blog in New Zealand. Am I missing something?

          [lprent: Yes, you are about to start missing writing on our site after maligning it.

          Banned 8 weeks for stupidity. Read the about and the policy. I really can’t be bothered indulging lazy fools who don’t read the house rules. ]

          • Pasupial 8.1.2.1.1
            17 September 2014 at 1:49 pm

            lprent

            It seems that you may be in error about rich maligning the site, when all he called it was; “a Labour (so kind of left) blog in New Zealand”.

            Note that he did not say a “Labour Party blog”, and the about you referred him to states; “it’d be fair to say that all of us share a commitment to the values and principles that underpin the broad labour movement” (under; “What’s your political ‘angle’?”, with similar elsewhere). Plus the site does proclaim itself; “The New Zealand voice of the labour movement”, in the hometab.

            When I saw this earlier, I thought that the maligning must have occurred in a different comment, but have not been able to see anything objectionable thus far.

            [lprent: Do I care? It isn’t a “Labour” blog. It has always been a “labour movement” blog which is and always has been a hell of a lot larger than a single political party.

            If someone is too stupid to read the about then I will educate them the hard way. That is because invariably people that open their mouths on a blog and presume to know what it is are arrogant fuckwits who really need to understand the consequences of not investigating the social media that they are using. It is really bad manners.

            My experience has been that the only reason that people say variations on that theme is because they then proceed either smear the Labour party with our sins or try to smear us. Either way I’ll give them bans of anything from a few days to a year or two the first time I see it – depends on how cranky I feel. They tend to get a bit more cautious at the next site. For some reason this semi-arbitrary sentencing behaviour never seems to constrain the growth of people commenting or the numbers of comments that they leave. I suspect that it enhances it.

            I view it as a requirement to running a blog – educating the pig-ignorant ]

            • McFlock 8.1.2.1.1.1
              17 September 2014 at 3:01 pm

              The crux seems to be in the capitalisation – lower denoting a broad and imprecise description, upper denoting a specific entity’s name…

            • greywarbler 8.1.2.1.1.2
              17 September 2014 at 3:22 pm

              @ Pasupial
              It seems to me to be about the meaning that relates to a word having either a capital or a lower case start. The difference between Labour (which can be used as a single word referring to the Labour Party) which these days is full of nice middle class people on good incomes, with a few lower-income asperashunal ones sprinkled on the top like tasty, poppy seeds,
              and, labour which stands for the generalised working class often unskilled, low skilled, semi-skilled and with wages that generally match. So big difference between Labour and labour. Capisce?

              I would have thought that a thoughtful person like yourself would have picked that up. Rich was just suffering from being a new-ish guy on the site, and put his foot in it. There is quite a lot of deliberate misinformation about the site and sometimes one more is the last straw with our sysop.

              • Pasupial …
                17 September 2014 at 5:17 pm

                greywarbler

                Now that it’s pointed out, I can see the difference between the two. Though it didn’t strike me on first reading, and since I just C&Pd the offending portion I missed it when I made my comment as well.

                I guess rich was just in the wrong place at the wrong time with that one. Maybe the attempted deflections from the Dirty Politics crew (with their; TS is just the same as WO, nonsense) have put our fine sysop a bit on edge.

                • greywarbler …
                  17 September 2014 at 6:39 pm

                  @ Pasupial 5.17
                  Yes he is a fine sysop, and does get a bit testy when too many oddities mount up in the day. I think you are right about all.

          • Draco T Bastard 8.1.2.1.2
            17 September 2014 at 2:23 pm

            I really can’t be bothered indulging lazy fools who don’t read the house rules.

            * Wonders if I should go off and read them, nah, too lazy* 😈

            • lprent 8.1.2.1.2.1
              17 September 2014 at 2:54 pm

              Mostly they just say “don’t be a fool on our site and waste our time dealing with it”.

              You’re just argumentative 😈

    • travellerev 8.2
      17 September 2014 at 8:59 am

      😆 funny how things can turn eh?

  9. Rodel 9
    17 September 2014 at 7:54 am

    I want to hear about the policies of all parties in the few days before election day and see and hear the candidates .

    Sick of the media’s obsession with poor maligned Key, mass surveillance, Kimdottycom, CGSB etc ad-nauseum.

    Key has high profile and all others have low profile. Couldn’t have stage managed it better myself.

    • CrashCart 9.1
      17 September 2014 at 10:21 am

      Have you got a postage stamp? If so key should be able to list all of Nationals policies on it for you.

      Have to agree in large with you. The one major down fall of everything that is happening is that Policy gets drowned out. As much as I think the Dirty Polotics, GCSB information is important and should rightfully influence voters, in the end people need to know policy to make an informed decision as to who to vote for.

      • Draco T Bastard 9.1.1
        17 September 2014 at 2:27 pm

        To be honest, I actually think that knowing a political party is honest or not is more important than their policies.

        • McFlock 9.1.1.1
          17 September 2014 at 2:43 pm

          true. If they might be lying, then their policies are worthless.

          • CrashCart 9.1.1.1.1
            17 September 2014 at 3:14 pm

            Actually the first part was to point out National’s policy is almost non existant. I thought that was pretty clear.

            Unfortunately because of all the coverage of the admitidly important revelations I mentioned there has been very little coverage of the poilicies from other parties. As someone who voted IMP yesterday I would have liked a little more information around the differences between them and say the Greens. If the wider public are shifting away from the NAT’s and their corrupt practices it allows them to make a more informed decision about which party they want to vote for. We can’t just assume they would all vote Labour.

            The honesty of the NAT’s only discredits them. It doesn’t help you decide which of the other parties you will vote for. Policy does.

            • McFlock 9.1.1.1.1.1
              17 September 2014 at 3:23 pm

              So worrying about the nat’s policies being the size of a postage stamp is pretty irrelevant, if they’ve already been shown up as dishonest.

              Which is more important: covering the blatant lying of our pm, or covering the policy manifestos of half a dozen other parties? I reckon that those who are interested in policy would find it themselves, e.g. party websites, but those who are more interested in character issues and baby-kissing photos will rely 100% on the msm.

              • CrashCart …
                17 September 2014 at 3:44 pm

                Why does it have to be one or the other. My point the whole time is that they are both important. I could equally argue that those who care about Dirty Politics could go and read the book.

                Not sure how you can dismiss the importance of defining the difference between parties especially on the left where we have a plethora of choice. With out clear communication of those poicies through an easily accessable medium those moving away from the NAT’s are just as likely to tick the Conservative box as say Winston Peter’s and not understand that not only will that lead to a whole lot fo crazy but it will also help return the NAT’s to power.

                It’s all well and good for those who can be bothered taking the time to go and read up on different polocies. However for the large number of people who form their opinioin’s from the MSM (and they are the ones we want to influence with the coverage of Dirty Politics) they will also make their choice on change based on what they hear in the MSM.

                • McFlock …
                  17 September 2014 at 3:58 pm

                  it’s not “one or the other”, the issue is relative importance.
                  I don’t kjnow I care about the contents of a book if I haven’t read the book – it could be bunk for all I know, or misleading title/cover.

                  If I care about preschool access or water quality, I know to try to find policy on it.

                  And frankly, people who care more about character are likely to switch off the msm if it ignores character for policy descriptions.

    • Dialey 9.2
      17 September 2014 at 6:26 pm

      It’s about trust and ethics, which are at the core of the contract between the electorate and the elected. If we cannot trust our representatives, then it doesn’t matter what the hell their policies are.

    • RedBaronCV 9.3
      17 September 2014 at 7:57 pm

      Perhaps you could take this up with the MSM. One day in the last three weeks the front page lead of a major daily, story covering the full page was ” a story and a picture (which I didn’t want to look at as being too gruesome) of somebody who had had their face bitten by a dog” which I am sure was horrible and painful. But this story and others like it occupied the front page quite consisitently over the whole period. NAct had no policy that they could discuss perhaps?

  10. travellerev 10
    17 September 2014 at 8:04 am

    Here are some questions for Clare Curran (Labour IT spokes person at the time) who seemed to know that unauthorized changes made to the software handling the Sydney side of the Southern Cross cable crashed the internet connection for NZ on 9 October 2012.

    If you want to do it yourself you might want to copy past this in your twitter message box en tweet it to them:

    @clarecurranmp @DavidCunliffeMP @nzlabour What did Clare Curran know about the SC Cable outage on 9 Nov 2012 http://wp.me/p638n-4tX

    Question for Lynn: How likely is it that unauthorized software changes can be made without notification by an unauthorized individual in what is the only connection of NZ to the rest of the world?

    • weka 10.1
      17 September 2014 at 10:06 am

      I thought it weird that that article on the outage quoted Curran so much when she was in opposition. I don’t think there was any comment from the govt.

  11. phillip ure 11
    17 September 2014 at 8:05 am

    key on breakfast tvone:..

    “..we can’t just go and look..we have to get a warrant to go into that database..’

    ..question:..which/what ‘database’..?

    ..the one that snowden detailed accessing from hawaii..?

    ..(has key involuntarily admitted something here..?..)

    • Steve 11.1
      17 September 2014 at 8:16 am

      Ah the house of cards is crumbling. I think the meme is now gently shifting to “it’s only surveillance if you look at the information – not if you just collect it’.

      With more to come from Greenwald and even Craig talking about issues of trust Slippery is possibly having his last slither.

      Whatever the outcome on Saturday Key is now, and will increasingly become, severely damaged goods.

      • phillip ure 11.1.1
        17 September 2014 at 8:22 am

        i think you can further synthesise it down to:

        ..we don’t collect it..they do…

        ..and re yr ‘damaged-goods’ comment..

        ..should the unthinkable happen..and key get back in..

        ..it will be open warfare from day one..

        ..he will have the shortest political-honeymoon period on record..

        • travellerev 11.1.1.1
          17 September 2014 at 9:05 am

          Honeymoon long over. He will be a lame duck shitting bricks everyday for fear something else will come out. And he knows he is in Government on borrowed time! Can’t be nice. Looks like Winston Peters is a real alternative for those who hate labor and green but want to breakaway from National’s poisoned well and who don’t want to kowtow to the International Corps by signing the TTPA.

        • yeshe 11.1.1.2
          17 September 2014 at 9:17 am

          as in, I break into your house and steal your television. ekshully, at the end of the day, it’s not stolen until I turn it on.

  12. Local Kiwi 12
    17 September 2014 at 8:12 am

    Rodel – I want to hear about other parties policy you said.

    Look up Other parties policy of the web?

    They all have it laid out, as update as you can get.

    NZ First has a very good policy on regional rail if you are interested better than every other party.

    “Rails of National significance”

    They have very well thought out policies.

    I am Labour but fringe NZF and Green, so good combination we think.

    • phillip ure 12.1
      17 September 2014 at 8:25 am

      the policy-comparison that has me gobsmacked..(and perhaps distills my disquiet at/with labour..)

      ..is that the twenty grand tax-free policy of rightwing-nutjob/moon-landing-denier craig..

      ..would do more for the childless-poor..

      ..than anything labour has on offer..

      ..which is exactly diddly-fucken-squat..

      (when pressed cunnliffe said a ‘financial surplus’ was more important for labour..than any idea of raining benefit rates at all..)

      ..and so..the poorest of the poor..will just be left to rot by labour..again..

      ..’far-right party does more for the poor than labour’

      ..(how is that for a headline..?..)

      ..anyone with strong beliefs/desires to right those wrongs..

      ..must look past labour..

      ..to internet/mana and the greens..

      ..labour is still too in the thrall of its’ neo-libbers..

      .none of whom have ever cared very much for the poor..

    • Rodel 12.2
      17 September 2014 at 6:09 pm

      Local Kiwi – Thanks I do know the policies. I am committed t o Cunliffe and Labour and have ticked Labour twice..no question.

      I want to HEAR the politicians and their policies not for me but because the wavering voters are the ones who need to hear them….free doctors visits for over 65s and kids…raising the Minimum wage…preventing the sale of further assets… shutting John Banks’ s ridiculous charter schools…re-establishing a public TV channel..etc etc.

      Most people know the Key corporation is deceitful but the positive Labour and Greens..(grudgingly he said) policies and Winston’s ideas are getting submersed in the high profile scandals about John Key.

      Incidentally, nice to hear that 10% of voters (300,000 or so have already voted- Big turnout augurs well for the left.

  13. brian 13
    17 September 2014 at 8:48 am

    Definition of Mass surveillance:

    I would like to hear the unequivocal positions of all parties as to their definition of mass surveillance.

    Do they define mass surveillance as (a) capturing and storing data without the permission of the private citizen?, or (b) do they not consider that to be surveillance until they look at that information?

    It is clear that the Sleazy Dirty Politics Party is hoping to redefine mass surveillance as in (b) above.

  14. brian 14
    17 September 2014 at 8:51 am

    Political Response to Mass surveillance

    The Sleazy Dirty Politics Party will obviously stay in the Five Evil Eyes Axis

    David Cunliffe has indicated that the Labour Party will also stay in the FEEA

    Is there any party of decency remaining?

    • brian 14.1
      17 September 2014 at 10:06 am

      I’ve possibly been too harsh on Labour:

      “Labour will repeal and replace the GCSB law after an independent inquiry in to New Zealand’s intelligence services”

      Still a niggling doubt. Why has David Cunliffe also said that Labour will stay in the Axis? Surely that position should follow the inquiry above

      • Rosie 14.1.1
        17 September 2014 at 10:39 am

        Brian, for what it’s worth, David Cunliffe spoke at a public talk about the TICS Bill last year in August on your point:

        “Labour will repeal and replace the GCSB law after an independent inquiry in to New Zealand’s intelligence services”.

        He spoke at length and spoke with conviction about NZer’s right to privacy. He was sincerely and strongly opposed to the government mass spying on its citizens. Its hard to imagine however that a Labour govt will throw out intelligence sharing relationships NZ has had with allies post WW2 but we can only hope the way in which they operate will be part of the review.

        As for your last question at 14. Didn’t Dotcom say the Internet Party would take one eye out of the five eyes alliance? (or did I imagine that?)

        • brian 14.1.1.1
          17 September 2014 at 11:17 am

          It is unlikely that New Zealand can influence the four big eyes in the Axis to dump their desires to continue with mass surveillance.

          So the question will be for all New Zealanders whether we want to continue with intelligence sharing relationships we have had with allies since WW2, if the price of that intelligence is that we have to accept mass surveillance.

          You say it is hard to imagine that Labour will want to stop the relationship. Which I agree with, since I have heard Cunliffe say (sorry cannot recall source) that Labour would stay with Five eyes.

          It looks like an important point of differentiation between Labour and their possible coalition partners. From your comment above, I am pleased that the Internet Party may be willing to remove an eye, and say so now. The Green Party have also been very concerned about surveillance issues, although I do not know what they are thinking about continuing with 5 eyes.

          It’s an issue that I wish to resolve before I vote. What I desire is a party that can provide a clear assurance that mass surveillance will not be tolerated, and that NZ will not participate in any alliance if the price for that alliance is Orwellian.

  15. brian 15
    17 September 2014 at 8:55 am

    How safe is National Radio?

    Maori Television is now feeling the effect of publishing stories that do not suit the spin of the Sleazy Dirty Politics Party.

    John Key already will front up to National Radio (presumably fearing Guyon Espiner) as little as possible?

    In this climate, how safe is National Radio from being “restructured” so that Guyon Espiner will no longer have a job (sending a message to all others), if the Sleazy Dirty Politics Party gets another term in Parliament?

  16. Chooky 16
    17 September 2014 at 8:57 am

    Compelling summary by lawyer Denis Tegg with graphics on the issues of mass surveillance…questions to be asked now… and time for John key to come clean:

    ‘GUEST BLOG – Denis Tegg – The NSA slides that prove mass surveillance’

    By The Daily Blog / September 17, 2014

    “The evidence presented by Glenn Greenwald and Edward Snowden on The Intercept of mass surveillance of New Zealanders by the GCSB is undeniable, and can stand on its own….

    – See more at: http://thedailyblog.co.nz/2014/09/17/guest-blog-denis-tegg-the-nsa-slides-that-prove-mass-surveillance/#sthash.uq22KklT.dpuf

  17. brian 17
    17 September 2014 at 9:03 am

    Kicking the boot into the Poor.

    News today. WINZ is closing regional offices, such as the one in Raglan

    The Heartless Sleazy Dirty Politics Party (HSDPP) now expects those without work to have to pay to travel to Hamilton to a WINZ office.

    If they cannot afford the travel, presumably they will lose the benefit they are entitled to; and the HSDPP will be able to trumpet that the number of people receiving the benefit is less under their watch. Do they care about poverty? The HSDPP must have been the only group in New Zealand who smiled and saw an “opportunity” from the Ashburton tragedy.

    • travellerev 17.1
      17 September 2014 at 9:11 am

      Oh Goodie! Expect more crime, more despair, more alcohol and violence. Poor Rags. I live near it. They just want people to move out of small places into the big cities. This is just pure Agenda 21 shit.

      In Kawhia you don’t even get the dole if you live there because they say you clearly are not interested in a job if you want to live there. Never mind the family breakups, more lack of family support.

      You poor? You rot in a burp in old leaky cold houses if you’re lucky without any hope for the future or a family life.

      • Molly 17.1.1
        17 September 2014 at 9:35 am

        “In Kawhia you don’t even get the dole if you live there because they say you clearly are not interested in a job if you want to live there. Never mind the family breakups, more lack of family support. “

        Kawhia is a beautiful place… wonder how much of that restriction is based on “why should the unemployed live in such an area of natural beauty when I have to work in the urban jungle?”

        Sustainable regional development is required – imagine how local economies can be supported by those on benefits spending their money there instead of on high rentals in forced moves to cities.

        A ridiculous policy in terms of long-term benefits to people and communities.

        • brian 17.1.1.1
          17 September 2014 at 10:12 am

          An unemployed person has to live somewhere while they are looking for a job. If whanau are in Kawhia, that would seem a good place to stay temporarily. I’m reading from your comment, that the same thing will happen for those who live in Raglan.

          New policy. “If you are unemployed and wish a benefit, you will be required to live within walking distance of any WINZ office that has not yet closed”

          I wish more emphasis was placed on the carrot and not the stick

          • Molly 17.1.1.1.1
            17 September 2014 at 10:33 am

            Agree.

            And how much further the benefit would go in terms of providing the basics of life, and the opportunity to make changes if you are not required to live in an overpriced, unhealthy rental in a city where you don’t have a support system?

          • freedom 17.1.1.1.2
            17 September 2014 at 10:34 am

            brian, what source are you quoting from?

            • brian 17.1.1.1.2.1
              17 September 2014 at 10:59 am

              My apology: Where I wrote “New Policy ….If you are….” I did not make it clear that this was not a serious comment. I should have. The quotation marks invited your reasonable query.

              • freedom …
                17 September 2014 at 11:13 am

                thanks, i suspected it was ‘paraphrasing’ an idea and was not an actual statement but thought it best to clarify.

                Don’t want the concern tr_lls skim reading and mis-quoting 😎

      • Draco T Bastard 17.1.2
        17 September 2014 at 2:52 pm

        This is just pure Agenda 21 shit.

        Oh, FFS*, Agenda 21 is a voluntary code for societies and nations to follow to become sustainable. It includes combating poverty. As such I think we can assume that what National is doing is completely against Agenda 21 as they’re increasing poverty.

        National probably see small communities as a cost on everyone else and thus they seek to get rid of them to further lower taxes. This is completely delusional but that does seem to describe National accurately.

        * I get really fucked off with this conspiracy theory BS that’s been spread by, as far as I can make out, the Koch Brothers. Being sustainable does mean not using oil any more and the Koch Brothers do produce a lot of oil.

        • thatguynz 17.1.2.1
          17 September 2014 at 3:54 pm

          There’s a whole load more to A21 than simply sustainability DtB 🙂 Sustainability is the Trojan Horse to make it palatable.. (And I think all of us would agree with the virtue of sustainability).

          • Draco T Bastard 17.1.2.1.1
            17 September 2014 at 4:08 pm

            Well then, you should be able to point out where it’s all a conspiracy to have an unelected few ruling the world.

            • thatguynz 17.1.2.1.1.1
              17 September 2014 at 4:18 pm

              That’s not what I said DtB 🙂

              • Draco T Bastard …
                17 September 2014 at 5:18 pm

                You haven’t actually said what you mean and yet every time I’ve seen the Agenda 21 conspiracy theory mentioned that’s what’s meant.

                • thatguynz …
                  18 September 2014 at 12:28 pm

                  That is probably because I haven’t referred to Agenda 21 as a “conspiracy theory”. It’s very real and relates to significantly more than simply “sustainability”. IMO a good video on the topic is here – http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9GykzQWlXJs and it’s also worth reading Gro Harlem Brundtland’s book “Our Common Future” which was the precursor to Agenda 21. Your mileage may of course vary.

                  Disclaimer – I fully support the notion of “sustainable” development and living within our environmental means and that resources are finite. I don’t support A21 as the embodiment of this however 🙂

        • Murray Olsen 17.1.2.2
          17 September 2014 at 6:50 pm

          I do too. If anyone reads the actual Agenda 21 documents, they’re pretty innocuous. For those who rely on Alex Jones, it’s the scariest thing since chemtrails.

          • thatguynz 17.1.2.2.1
            18 September 2014 at 12:30 pm

            If anyone relies on Alex Jones as the sole arbiter of truth they have bigger issues than either Agenda 21 OR chemtrails 🙂

    • weka 17.2
      17 September 2014 at 10:14 am

      “If they cannot afford the travel, presumably they will lose the benefit they are entitled to;”

      Pretty sure WINZ has an obligation to ensure access. So if someone can’t travel, then WINZ need to make their service accessible in another way eg by email/ph, or by sending a staffer to the area. Of course WINZ staffers will tell beneficiaries that the bene has to travel, but this should be challengeable.

  18. brian 18
    17 September 2014 at 9:07 am

    Where is Jason Ede?

  19. KATY 19
    17 September 2014 at 10:11 am

    National in trouble, time to call in Super Paula with a distraction, only don’t think it will work this time. What with the election so close and all that.

    http://www.stuff.co.nz/national/politics/policies/10508263/Nats-promise-cut-to-benefit-numbers

  20. Ffloyd 20
    17 September 2014 at 10:43 am

    No,no,no. It’s alright. Franny has said that ‘john key wins’ and has kept his integrity intact. So it’s on to the final debate (which key will triumph in of course) and business as usual. I was never aware that he has any integrity.

    • weka 21.1
      17 September 2014 at 11:36 am

      Fingers crossed and prayers said Rosie. Keep up the good work!

    • Chooky 21.2
      17 September 2014 at 12:25 pm

      +100 Rosie…good luck!

    • ianmac 21.3
      17 September 2014 at 2:28 pm

      Notice how Hudson talks about places while Virginia talks about people.
      Things V People. Go Virginia and perhaps offer that jaded looking Pete a cup of coffee or something.

      • Rosie 21.3.1
        17 September 2014 at 4:01 pm

        Yes, there is a big difference between Brett Hudson and Ginny Andersen. Notice how Hudson mainly puts up Natz terrible empty policy (eg slave labour in prisons) and talks very little about the electorate on his fb and you’re right Ginny Andersen is very people focused, and in a genuine way.

        He has referred several times to his the positive feedback he is getting about the Nat govt, when door knocking but that is all. I’m sure he is only focusing on the safe wealthier looking suburbs lol. Not a peep about the poverty in the community which Ginny has covered well.
        What he hasn’t said is how he has been literally laughed out loud at, at several candidates meetings (he didn’t go down well at the one I went to) and that he’s out early every morning checking damage to his hoardings.

  22. Penny Bright 22
    17 September 2014 at 10:47 am

    FYI

    17 September 2014

    URGENT : Request for an Inquiry by the Inspector General of Intelligence and Security, Cheryl Gwyn – re matters arising from the Snowden GCSB/ NSA ‘revelations’.

    Dear Inspector-General,

    Yesterday, I emailed the following URGENT ‘Open Letter/ OIA request to NZ Prime Minister John Key regarding questions arising from the Edward Snowden GCSB/ NSA ‘revelations’:

    I have yet to even have an emailed acknowledgment of receipt of this urgent correspondence.

    In order for the public to have confidence in both the NZ Prime Minister, and the NZ Intelligence and Security services, in my opinion, we need to know that we have not been lied to regarding the mass surveillance of New Zealand citizens.

    Please conduct an urgent inquiry into the following questions that I have asked of the Prime Minister, as you are empowered to do under s.11 (1) (b) (i) of the ‘Inspector-General of Intelligence and Security Act 1996:

    http://www.legislation.govt.nz/act/public/1996/0047/latest/DLM392526.html

    11Functions of Inspector-General

    (1)Subject to the provisions of this Act, the functions of the Inspector-General shall be—

    (a)to inquire, of the Inspector-General’s own motion or at the request of the Minister, into any matter that relates to the compliance by an intelligence and security agency with the law of New Zealand:

    (b)to inquire into any complaint by—

    (i)a New Zealand person; or
    (ii)a person who is an employee or former employee of an intelligence and security agency,—
    that that person has or may have been adversely affected by any act, omission, practice, policy, or procedure of an intelligence and security agency:

    (ba)to inquire into any complaint made by the Speaker of the House of Representatives on behalf of 1 or more members of Parliament:

    (c)to inquire at the request of the Minister or the Prime Minister or of the Inspector-General’s own motion into any matter where it appears that a New Zealand person has been or may be adversely affected by any act, omission, practice, policy, or procedure of an intelligence and security agency:

    (ca)to inquire at the request of the Minister or the Prime Minister or of the Inspector-General’s own motion into the propriety of particular activities of an intelligence and security agency:

    (d)without limiting paragraph (a), to review at intervals of not more than 12 months—

    (i)the effectiveness and appropriateness of the procedures adopted by each intelligence and security agency to ensure compliance with its governing legislation in relation to the issue and execution of warrants and authorisations; and
    (ii)the effectiveness and appropriateness of compliance systems concerning operational activity, including all supporting policies and practices of an intelligence and security agency relating to—

    (A)administration; and

    (B)information management; and

    (C)risk management; and

    (D)legal compliance generally:

    (da)to conduct unscheduled audits of the procedures and compliance systems described in paragraph (d):

    (e)to prepare and submit to the Minister from time to time for his or her approval programmes for the general oversight and review of each intelligence and security agency and for the discharge by the Inspector-General, in relation to each intelligence and security agency, of the particular functions specified in this section:

    (f)to carry out any programme or amended programme or substituted programme approved by the Minister under paragraph (e).

    (2)[Repealed]

    (3)In carrying out any inquiry in accordance with the provisions of subsection (1)(ca), it shall not be a function of the Inspector-General to inquire into any action taken by the Minister.

    (4)Except to the extent strictly necessary for the performance of his or her functions under subsection (1), the Inspector-General shall not inquire into any matter that is operationally sensitive, including any matter that relates to intelligence collection and production methods or sources of information.

    (5)The Inspector-General shall not conduct an inquiry into a complaint made under subsection (1) by an employee or former employee of an intelligence and security agency unless—
    (a)all established internal remedies have been exhausted; or
    (b)the employee or former employee and the chief executive of the relevant intelligence and security agency otherwise agree in writing.

    (6)Where an inquiry has been conducted by the Inspector-General following a complaint, the Inspector-General may make such recommendations for the redress of that complaint as the Inspector-General thinks fit (including remedies that involve the payment of compensation).
    __________________________________________

    16 September 2014

    ‘Open Letter/ OIA request to NZ Prime Minister John Key regarding questions arising from the Edward Snowden GCSB/ NSA ‘revelations’

    Dear Prime Minister,

    Under the ‘urgency’ and ‘public interest’ provisions of the NZ Official Information Act, please provide answers to the following by 5pm Thursday 18 September 2014:

    Please provide the following information that explains:

    1) Why did you inform the public that the GCSB Amendment Bill would not lead to an expansion of powers when at the same time you were planning the Speargun mass surveillance initiative?

    2) Why was phase one of the Speargun project completed if it was, as you have claimed, something that never made it past the “business case”?

    3) Why New Zealanders were not informed about the Cortex project until the NZ Government’s hand was forced by disclosures based on documents from Snowden?

    4) How much data is collected on a daily basis by GCSB under the Cortex project, and how does the agency ensure this data does not “incidentally” include the content or metadata of citizens’ communications?

    5) What technology is this, referred to in the Cortex documents, that “has been around for some time”?

    6) Is any information collected by GCSB under Cortex — or any other program that accesses internet data — shared with the NSA and/or other Five Eyes agencies through systems such as XKEYSCORE?

    7) Does GCSB have access to XKEYSCORE and, if so, for how long has this been the case?

    8) Does GCSB use its access to internet data streams — under initiatives like Cortex or similar — to launch active/offensive cyber operations that involve hacking computer systems to collect information?

    9) When will you declassify documents detailing the Speargun project and showing that it was not completed?

    _________________________________________________________

    Please be advised that I have based this OIA request upon information contained in the following article:

    “THE QUESTIONS FOR NEW ZEALAND ON MASS SURVEILLANCE”
    https://firstlook.org/theintercept/2014/09/15/questions-new-zealand-mass-surveillance/

    I believe that these are fair questions to which the New Zealander voting public need true and accurate answers.

    Yours sincerely,

    Penny Bright
    ………………………

  23. ropata 23
    17 September 2014 at 11:09 am

    Key’s reputation is more important than NZ’s foreign relations or trade. That’s why he had to declassify top secret documents. Irresponsible fuckwit

    • JRT 23.1
      17 September 2014 at 11:41 am

      I think his declassifying secret documents to save his own skin is what will ultimately finish him. Those documents were either 1) made secret to hide what Key was doing from New Zealand or 2) made secret for the safety of New Zealand, and so to release them to save his own political reputation is treasonous. Either way, he cannot stay as Prime MInister. Everyone has been looking for the smoking gun that will finally incriminate Key, but I think that decision he took to release those documents was him pulling the trigger on his own political demise.

      • ropata 23.1.1
        17 September 2014 at 1:21 pm

        Agreed, this is a rushed move with desperation written all over it. A new low from the dirtiest PM in living memory.

      • Draco T Bastard 23.1.2
        17 September 2014 at 3:11 pm

        The smoking gun has been there since at least 2008.

        • JRT 23.1.2.1
          17 September 2014 at 4:20 pm

          Yes DTB, it has always been clear that Key is a liar out to line his own pockets. The National voters seem to understand and respect that for some reason only known to themselves. But Key has now stepped over the line into behavior that is treasonous, and that is a very different story.

  24. joe90 24
    17 September 2014 at 11:27 am

    If only….

  25. brian 25
    17 September 2014 at 11:37 am

    Why have the Main Stream Media not published the last information given to them by Whaledump?

    Why is their inaction being forgotten?

    Why did Whaledump not dump his final dump to the public in the same way that previous information was dumped?

    Why has Whaledump not been resurrected to rectify the disappointing response of the Media?

    This election campaign has exposed the sorry state of New Zealand journalism. We once could expect our journalists to provide accurate reporting of events, regardless of their own political views. (We still can for a few journalists)

    We now have far too many ‘Media Stars’ who appear to believe that they are more important than their stories. I do not want media stars giving patsy questions to the politicians they favour. I want information. And credibility (for both ‘Media Star’ and politician) that can only come from searching and thoughtful questions. And I certainly do not want, what appears to be Whaledump censorship.

  26. Chooky 26
    17 September 2014 at 11:40 am

    A MUST LISTEN with great relevance to foreign companies buying up New Zealand land eg Goldman Sachs

    In her new book, Expulsions, Columbia University sociology professor Saskia Sassen offers a chilling analysis of the dynamics shaping the global economy, including their effects of income inequality, expanding populations of the displaced, and accelerating destruction of land and water bodies.

    Dr Sassen has led several multi-year projects into the forces of globalisation, and says technological and economic advances of our time have seen a sharp growth in the number of people expelled from the core social and economic orders.

    http://www.radionz.co.nz/national/programmes/ninetonoon/audio/20149953/how-global-economic-forces-increase-disparity

    http://www.kontext-tv.de/broadcast/10102013/saskia-sassen-expulsion/land-grabbing

    http://www.huffingtonpost.com/saskia-sassen/

    (Thankyou to Kathryn Ryan for this interview)

  27. freedom 27
    17 September 2014 at 12:13 pm

    Today’s Nine till Noon interview on ‘minority government’ certainly covered a lot of ground but yet again the content of the interview raised obvious questions that never get addressed.

    eg: If [National] try to form a minority Government without fixed partners and/or C&S agreements and they ask the Governor General to allow a confidence vote in the House, should MP’s/Parties have a right to abstain on that vote?

    To continue the Judge/Jury analogy that was being framed – where the GG is the Judge and the newly elected MPs are the Jury – ask yourself, are Jurors allowed to abstain from making a verdict decision? No! So why should Members of our Parliament be allowed to abstain when deciding who will govern?

  29. karol 29
    17 September 2014 at 1:10 pm

    Russell Brown’s interview with Glenn Greenwald today in Public Address is worth reading. Looks like it was GG’s request that KDC not talk about his email, as it would distract from the spying issues.

    • adam 29.1
      17 September 2014 at 1:24 pm

      I think Mr Greenwald underestimated how much our media had fallen. How our media love the story to be about themselves. And how much our media are partisan hacks. With a few, too few, exceptions.

    • karol 29.2
      17 September 2014 at 1:55 pm

      The interview.

      A final question: you dissociated yourself from Kim Dotcom’s Warner email at the press conference last night. Did you go so far as to veto it being presented on the night?

      No, I wouldn’t say I vetoed it. I didn’t really have the power to veto what he wanted to do or say. But we did talk about the fact that in the scheme of what we might talk about, that the time would probably be used a lot more constructively to focus on the questions of mass surveillance and the truthfulness of the Prime Minister, and the trade agreement that Mr Amsterdam spent quite some time talking about, as opposed to the particulars of Mr Dotcom’s case. That it would probably be a better use of the time of the event. I think we came to a consensus about it and I felt very comfortable with that.

      • Tracey 29.2.1
        17 September 2014 at 1:59 pm

        Duncan garner and 3rd degree tonight interview former dotcom employees with nothing nice to say…

        Key and Joyce must be due to call tv3 out for focusing on non policy issues…

        • karol 29.2.1.1
          17 September 2014 at 2:32 pm

          Apparently interviewing KDC, too. This sort of programme, bound to have been in the pipeline for a while, shows why it was good sense to separate the Greenwald-Snowden MoT from KDC’s issues.

          I’m no fan of the guy: don’t expect him to come across as Mr Nice Guy.

      • Tracey 29.2.2
        17 September 2014 at 2:02 pm

        Which puts a bit of a lie to the notion they were all just paid patsies of dotcom

  30. Pete 30
    17 September 2014 at 1:11 pm

    I’m not expecting much from this evening’s debate. 30 minutes (22 after ads), with around 5 minutes being opening and closing remarks. Another few minutes being Hosking blathering on. It will be full of sound and fury, signifying nothing.

    • Lanthanide 30.1
      17 September 2014 at 3:04 pm

      It’s supposed to be about coalition partners and forming the government, so Hosking is likely to ask Key about his plans to cause a constitutional crises by trying to form a government without a majority in Parliament.

  31. joe90 31
    17 September 2014 at 1:17 pm

    Things aren’t looking too good for the worlds second largest ice sheet.

    This year, Greenland’s ice sheet was the darkest Box (or anyone else) has ever measured. Box gives the stunning stats: “In 2014 the ice sheet is precisely 5.6 percent darker, producing an additional absorption of energy equivalent with roughly twice the US annual electricity consumption.”

    Perhaps coincidentally, 2014 will also be the year with the highest number of forest fires ever measured in Arctic.

    […]

    Earlier this year, Box made headlines for a strongly worded statement along these lines:

    Jason Box @climate_ice

    If even a small fraction of Arctic sea floor carbon is released to the atmosphere, we’re f’d.

    http://www.slate.com/blogs/future_tense/2014/09/16/jason_box_s_research_into_greenland_s_dark_snow_raises_more_concerns_about.html

  32. North 32
    17 September 2014 at 1:52 pm

    What an ‘on-to-it’ (not) guy is John Key ! Snowden “may well be right” now.

    Anyone get the feeling that Key changes his tune and his tone according to directives from far away ? Which is the whole troubling point ‘akshilly’.

    http://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/news/article.cfm?c_id=1&objectid=11326387

    • Tracey 32.1
      17 September 2014 at 2:01 pm

      The question late last week was

      Are loads of NZers being spied upon

      ?..

      If you follow his answers through to today we have now reached

      Yes

      But in such a way the media can pretend he didnt.

    • Potato 32.2
      17 September 2014 at 3:02 pm

      I have become so disillusioned and cynical by the mans lies, that after reading that headline, my next thought is that if he’s conceding to that one there must be something even worse being hidden from us now 🙁

  33. Raa 33
    17 September 2014 at 1:57 pm

    Dear Prime Minister,

    Does the Five Eyes Alliance have the ability to fix on-line lotteries ?

    If so, could you please put in a good word for me for this weekend ?

    Regards,

    Raa.

  34. cogito 34
    17 September 2014 at 2:03 pm

    http://www.3news.co.nz/politics/national-promises-25-pct-less-beneficiaries-2014091709

    So now we know why Paula Bennett was dishing out all the hugs and sickly sweet comments in Ashburton a few days ago…. she was just softening up staff for her next jackboot onslaught.

    Typically cynical of a woman with the ethics of an alley cat.

  35. Clemgeopin 35
    17 September 2014 at 2:45 pm

    Marcus Lush compares and contrasts Labour vs National campaign meeting in Mangere and Mt Albert.

    Both Labour and National leaders were in Auckland over the weekend: On Saturday, Marcus Lush took a trip to Mangere to see David Cunliffe appear before party supporters and media, while on Sunday, John Key appeared at a daycare centre in Mount Albert.

    Here’s how each event went.

    http://www.radiolive.co.nz/Marcus-Lush-on-the-hustings-Comparing-Labour-in-Mangere-with-National-in-Mount-Albert/tabid/439/articleID/54777/Default.aspx

    • adam 35.1
      17 September 2014 at 2:59 pm

      Wow, that was good – thanks for that Clem

      • Clemgeopin 35.1.1
        17 September 2014 at 3:34 pm

        You are welcome. The National’s ‘clinical’ approach made me laugh! Those poor little kids were brought to school on a Sunday morning, (Yes, Sunday!) like for a quiet respectful funeral service conducted by their holiness, King Key and patron saint of kids, Paula Bennett! What a disgrace!

  36. North 36
    17 September 2014 at 3:13 pm

    Armstrong – what is this increasingly shrill wishful thinking from New Zealand’s premier GodKey shill ? Sure ain’t journalism. This from the “time to resign – 11 year old form letter” man:

    http://www.nzherald.co.nz/john-armstrong/news/article.cfm?a_id=3&objectid=11325925

  37. The Pink Postman 37
    17 September 2014 at 3:26 pm

    Amongst all the sleaze and covers up from National I wonder if anyone who knows how too has checked on the Conservatives election expensives .The huge post office delivery expense must be very big.The Cons seem to be spending money nonstop. Their election bill needs to be explained.

  38. philj 38
    17 September 2014 at 4:08 pm

    xox
    With all this spying ( information hoovering) capacity, surely the head spy knows the game is over, and his master’s will tell him so. The high priest has been defrocked.

  39. James Thrace 39
    17 September 2014 at 4:15 pm

    Latest roy morgan poll is out

    Again, still too close to call. National-led Government: National Party, Maori Party, ACT NZ, United Future on 49% (up from 46.5% in August 31 poll)

    Opposition Parties: Labour Party, Green Party, Internet-Mana Party alliance, NZ First; down to 46.5 (from 49% in August 31 poll)

    Nothing more than an old switcherooni.

    National is up 1.5
    Labour down 2
    Greens down 2.5
    NZ1st up 2
    Maori Party up 1

    No real change for everyone else.

    Even so, based on those numbers, assuming Dunne is gone from Ohariu, and even with Seymour in Epsom, it still leaves National short. Have assumed conservatives get 4.5% and are out of parliament. The percentage signs relate to the party vote gained on the day.

    I am worried that Labour will get less overall, particularly as the weather on the day is shaping up to be nasty.

    I have modified the results as RM is usually out by a little bit (not much) so figures are my predictions on what the votes are likely to be on the date.

    ACT New Zealand 1.50% 2 MPs (1 electorate + 1.5% PV)
    Green Party 16.00% 21 MPs (no electorates)
    Internet MANA 2.00% 3 MPs (1 electorate +2% PV)
    Labour Party 26.00% 34 MPs (29 Electorates+ 5 list)
    Māori Party 1.00% 2 Mps (2 electorates)
    National Party 39.00% 50 Mps (37 electorates + 13 list)
    New Zealand First Party 7.00% 9 Mps (no electorates)

    121 seats total.

    Using the numbers:

    National + Act + MP = 54 seats
    Even if Dunne gets in, that still only gives them 55 seats

    Labour + Green + NZ1st = 64 seats, if Dunne gets in, that makes it 63 seats for the left block. I have factored in the probability of Ginny winning Ohariu.

    I can’t see Winston wanting to be part of a four headed monster, or even in a Nat+NZ1+Act/MP/Dunne configuration.

    However, If National got 42% and Labour got 23% on Saturday in their respective party votes (n/c to electorates won), then the left block would likely need IMP to be part of a formal coalition, or in a confidence and supply arrangement.

    Other alternative is that Lab+Grn+NZ1 combined on a 60 seat bloc in 121 seat parliament could run a minority government.

    A national+act+uf+mp bloc is only 58 seats in a 121 seat parliament.

    I haven’t done any configurations with Conservatives as I believe people will shy away from them at the last minute and switch to Winsome Winnie instead of Crazy Colon.

    Overall conclusion? This election is coming down to the wire.

  40. emergency mike 40
    17 September 2014 at 4:27 pm

    John Key is trying to discredit Snowden’s information by calling him a ‘hacker’.

    “Edward Snowden hacked into the NSA. He downloaded illegally millions of documents, some of which related to New Zealand.”

    Which is a gross misrepresentation of what happened. He was an NSA contractor with high level clearance, he didn’t need to hack into them.

    FFS are there any journalists in this country who aren’t happy to let Key just make shit up like this?

    • weka 40.1
      17 September 2014 at 5:18 pm

      This is good though. Key and his team being tied up having to make shit up that looks a big credible, instead of being out there campaigning.

      What you said about the MSM +1000 There seem to be a few that are getting it right this week. I assume he is avoiding them.

  41. weka 41
    17 September 2014 at 5:15 pm

    Damn, Laila has me wanting to vote IMP again,

    Laila Harré ‏@lailaharre 2 hrs
    #InternetMANA will make #TPPA a top target in post-election negs. Party vote for certainty on where we will stand: http://bit.ly/1mcHC5l

    https://internet.org.nz/news/89

  42. Ffloyd 42
    17 September 2014 at 5:43 pm

    Blimming heck! What on earth is Soper on. On prime, giving Cunliffe grief for not turning up to some tinpot radio station wanting to know “is Cunliffe serious about wanting to lead the country” Has anybody heard if key is going to debate the whole hour as Cunliffe has requested??

    • halfcrown 42.1
      17 September 2014 at 5:55 pm

      Exactly my thoughts. Any shit these right wing turds can throw at the left they will do. Did you see Armstrong’s heap of shit today along with Frankfurter’s? Do they honestly believe the crap they write or are they, just like Soper insulting our intelligence or taking the piss.

    • emergency mike 42.2
      17 September 2014 at 6:04 pm

      Cunliffe didn’t request it, TVNZ did. Cunliffe said yes, Key said no.

      And we know why. 30mins with ads is fk all time each. Not enough to cover all the issues, and 5 eyes.

    • phillip ure 42.3
      17 September 2014 at 7:02 pm

      @ floyd..

      ..on a day when key admits there is mass-surveillance of nz’ers..barry ‘i’m barry soper..!..and i know s.f.a..!’ soper..the political editor of sky news..

      ..chooses to run with a cunnliffe hatchet-job..

      ..he really is one of the worst..that soper…

      ..such a craven tory lackey/lickspittle..

  43. Pasupial 43
    17 September 2014 at 5:45 pm

    Advance voting looks like it’ll comprise over a third of total votes this election. The running total blew past the 2008 numbers on Monday, and 2011 yesterday:

    http://www.elections.org.nz/events/2014-general-election/advance-voting-statistics

    It looks set to top 410,000 tonight. In 2008 51% of advance votes were cast in the final three day period, in 2011 that was 55%. I predict that the total advance vote will be over 800 000, and if we treat the 2011 proportion as predictive then the total would be 40% of the 2011 total vote. Though I think that the total vote will be up this time too, so the advance vote proportion of that will be around 35%.

    A key advantage of advance voting is that you are less susceptible to caging-list strategies that have been employed in the US as a key part of dirty political strategy. There is a nationwide need for scrutineers to monitor the advance count (downside; you’ll be locked in from 1:30-7pm with no phone access, upside; that’s shorter than the 9am-9pm that polling station scutineers are expected to stick around, and there’s only one required per party per electorate, as opposed to the dozens of polling stations). If you haven’t planned to contribute to the election day in any other way yet, this might be something to consider (get in touch with your favoured party and offer your time – the candidate has to sign off on it).

  44. anker 44
    17 September 2014 at 5:53 pm

    Re the polls………….not sure what this means but did some figures when the Roy Morgan came out today.

    2011 RM last poll before election Result 2011…………..Last RM poll before 2014

    Nat 49.5 47.31 46.5

    Lab 23.5 27.48 24.00

    Green 14.5 11.06 13.5

    NZ 1st 6.59 6.59 8

    UF .6 .6 .5

    Maori 1.4 1.43 .5

    Mana 1 1 (IMP)

    Cons 2.65 2.65 3.5

    Act 1.5 1.07 .5

    Not sure what this all means, except Nats down 3% from last RM poll and then down 2% in actual election. Will check to make sure got figures right. Sorry didn’t get Mana’s actual election result.

  45. Te Reo Putake 45
    17 September 2014 at 6:02 pm

    National stuffed in 3news poll. 44.5% Labour 25.6 Greens 14.4 Winston 7.

    (Conservatives 4.9%!!!)

    • weka 45.1
      17 September 2014 at 6:14 pm

      how does that make National stuffed?

      • Colonial Viper 45.1.1
        17 September 2014 at 6:16 pm

        Because National will probably poll 2% lower and the Conservatives with end up scraping together just over 4%.

      • Te Reo Putake 45.1.2
        17 September 2014 at 6:25 pm

        CV’s on to it, weka. Last election, this poll had the Nats on 50.8% (3% higher than the actual result). Labour 26% (down 1.5%). Even if the overestimation is narrower this time, Key can’t form a Government without NZF on these numbers. No other option.

        They also showed what would happen if Craycray sneaks in. Again, no show without Winnie (and ACT, MP, UF). The dreaded 5 headed monster!

        • weka 45.1.2.1
          17 September 2014 at 6:34 pm

          Try running it through the calculator. I just put those TV3 figures in but adjusted down to CV’s figures for National and Craig, and it looks like National and Peters can form govt with no-one else.

          please check my figures though

          • weka 45.1.2.1.1
            17 September 2014 at 6:39 pm

            and either way, how is National stuffed when they can still use Peters?

          • Te Reo Putake 45.1.2.1.2
            17 September 2014 at 6:42 pm

            True enough, weka. But why would Winnie go with National? NZF’s entire policy package (except Laura Norder) is a close fit with Labour’s. And I’m picking the opportunity to knock Key off his perch would be irresistible to a man with a big ego and a bitter memory of 3 years in the wilderness.

            Et tu Winstus?

            • weka 45.1.2.1.2.1
              17 September 2014 at 6:56 pm

              Two words: Green Party.

              Or one word: bauble.

              On the other hand, Labour are quite capable of shafting the GP again and allowing Peters to force a L/NZF govt with C and S from the Greens.

              • Te Reo Putake …
                17 September 2014 at 7:25 pm

                Harsh description of the process on that occasion, and it wasn’t a L/NZF government anyway. NZF only gave C&S as I recall. The Greens did the same.

                • weka …
                  17 September 2014 at 7:29 pm

                  ok, leaving the past in the past, do you think that Labour would let a party on 7% dictate that a party on 13% couldn’t be part of govt inside cabinet?

                  • Te Reo Putake …
                    17 September 2014 at 7:45 pm

                    That’s actually not quite as bad as the 2005 situation, weka! Back then, NZF and UF would not support the Greens getting any kind of cabinet posting at all. For mine, I’m not fussed. Probably the same for the Greens, too. They know they will get more policy wins under a Labour led Government, in it or out of it, so it’s in their interest to give C&S.

                    It would be a shame, because the Greens are ready for leadership roles, but getting Key gone is the immediate issue.

              • phillip ure …
                17 September 2014 at 7:29 pm

                i agree with trp..

                ..i have written/warned of the dangers of a vote for peters..

                ..and i stand by all that..

                ..but the reality is that he is there..and he will likely hold the balance of power..

                ..but weighing up all the various factors/imperatives leads me to the conclusion that i wd be very surprised if he decided to prop up this corrupt/mass-surveilling aberration of the party he once belonged to..

                • weka …
                  17 September 2014 at 7:41 pm

                  great, so he will screw over the GP instead. Can’t wait until the man is gone, MMP will function so much better without him

    • Colonial Viper 45.2
      17 September 2014 at 6:15 pm

      I think Key is going to try a dodgy constitutional wag the dog trick with his mate Jerry Mateparae.

  46. Inky 46
    17 September 2014 at 6:07 pm

    HERALD: John Key ‘comfortable’ that NSA is not spying on NZ

    Comfortable? He must be perched on a cushion the size of the Beehive..

  48. North 48
    17 September 2014 at 6:55 pm

    X-Key-Whore-At-The-White-House-Door.

    Fuck-Off-New-Zealand !

    That’s what it means.

  49. One Anonymous Bloke 49
    17 September 2014 at 7:11 pm

    Half time. A theatre worthy of Fauxnews.

  50. phillip ure 50
    17 September 2014 at 7:23 pm

    cunnliffe has done ok in the final debate..

  51. Rodel 51
    17 September 2014 at 7:28 pm

    Watching the Cunliffe Key debate. Cunliffe is knowledgeable and competent.
    Key full of cliches (‘What I do know…I can say this… the point is…at the end of the day…”.)and a typical money trader…Good at gambling a profit for himself but couldn’t pass economics 101 ( or even high school home economics )

    • karol 51.1
      17 September 2014 at 7:36 pm

      I didn’t watch. Have been reading the tweets. Couldn’t face watching any more of the liar bambozzler in chief.

      • Anne 51.1.1
        17 September 2014 at 7:41 pm

        My gripe: Cunliffe’s voice was not clear enough in the final lap. He seemed to be talking almost inwardly which made his voice come across as muffled. I kept yelling at him (from the sofa) to speak more clearly but he took no notice. 😡

  52. tricle up 52
    17 September 2014 at 7:36 pm

    Put yourself in a foreign country without a passport subject to vindictive and subjective innuendo i to would be peeved and slag the natural inhabitant off …..KDC is not all bad nor is he all good he is just a natural human being, who has contributed and his interests are in part shared for change…..I sincerely hope the Scots are left to exercise free will away from the emotions behaviors influences and manipulations..

  53. Rodel 53
    17 September 2014 at 7:40 pm

    Hoskings (gritting my teeth) was pretty good.

    Cunliife -integrity,, intelligent visionary and super sincere. A man of substance.

    Key – less intelligent- lacking vision and mainlining his reptilian insincere cliches.No real substance.

    if there was any substance in anything Key said, could the right wingers elucidate? I know I’m biased but was there any sincerity or integrity in Key’s “performance”?

  54. gobsmacked 54
    17 September 2014 at 7:41 pm

    The Hosking – Key – Cunliffe debate was a waste of time.

    FFS, if Hosking starts asking about polls and predictions for election night, the answer is not to play his game.

    “The people hire, the people fire, the people are in charge on September 20 – not you Mike, not the commentators, but the people. And that’s a great day for democracy Wouldn’t you agree?”

    There’s a bunch of votes right there. But sadly … we just got same old insider to insider talk, and the (dwindling) audience wouldn’t have cared.

  55. phillip ure 55
    17 September 2014 at 9:23 pm

    now..we all know what a pile of putrescent-crap three degrees is..

    ..2nite they did their hatchet-job on dotcom..

    ..pathetic..

    ..that was it..?

    ..no kitten-murdering..?

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