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Open Mike 17/11/2017

Written By: - Date published: 6:00 am, November 17th, 2017 - 107 comments
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107 comments on “Open Mike 17/11/2017”

  1. Sanctuary 1

    Took some time to savour the right wing web sites last night. By Jupiter, they’ve become completely unhinged since the Labour led coalition took power. Farrar has gone completely troppo, posting bitter diatribes and editorially is apparently taking on Breitbart, complete with stories about how ruggedly individualistic flying cars are going to save us from socialist trains.

    The old school ACToids have always been viciously barking mad, but under Key and National they were able to keep their Galtian predilictions for a ruthless social Darwinism run by authoritarian nihilists under wraps. Now it is completely out of the bag, the rantings from the like of Rodders and Hoskings are awesome fun to read.

    But most importantly, I have been struck by how old they all sound, how jarringly yesterday their message is. Jacinda has already achieved one thing – she has smashed the long, paralysing lee the 1980s-90 ideologues have exercised on our society. In a strange way, it is like the country went into the election becalmed in 1996, and suddenly woke up in 2017.

    • syclingmad 1.1

      To be large extent this is just generational change. Baby boomers are moving over and becoming less of the force they once were. GenX (of which I am one) are moving to the top of the “escalator”. And they don’t necessarily share the same social values as the baby boomers. Certainly they are more socially liberal.

      Lots of generalisations there, so please don’t take offense, but I think the characterisation is reasonable.

      • tracey 1.1.1

        The problem is that most baby boomers were socially liberal and caring in their early twenties. Many still are. It is the change when they hit the workforce, make decent money and equate it with knowing everything.

        • Enough is Enough


          The 1960s and 1970s were a social revolution when the baby boomers liberalised society like no other generation ever has.

    • tracey 1.2

      And with it they are revealling themselves to be many of the things they revile in others.

      I just read a piece from Finlay McDonald written late October. I missed it at the time but it is a good summary of the self entitlement and chilish tantrums we are seeing now.


      • Bearded Git 1.2.1

        cheers Tracey-i was travelling and missed that article-nicely summed up by Finlay. National operating in their own parallel universe. Boy are they going to have difficulty renewing.

      • mary_a 1.2.2

        Thanks Tracey (1.2) … Finlay McDonald is extremely intelligent, a fine astute writer, very much on the ball. And with this one he’s absolutely right, given what’s evolving on the Opposition benches at present.

        Proving Natz is so last century, maybe going beyond that even. Their petulant behaviour is quite consistent with the spiteful, spoilt brats they are. Definitely not constructive towards building a progressive NZ!

    • Cinny 1.3

      The loss of the tories is like a fascinating psychological experiment, they aren’t handling the jandal, trying not to be smug but from the side lines it’s so satisfying to watch.

      Meanwhile Jacinda ‘burns’ trump, another proud moment for NZ, I love her style.

      “I said, ‘You know’, laughing, ‘no-one marched when I was elected’.”


    • Ad 1.4

      Wrong time for the left to get too comfortable.

      The right don’t have as many disparate factions to put together to mount clear opposition. They are building.

    • greywarshark 1.5

      Jacinda is transformed into the Princess and NZ the sleeping beauty. We awake and rub our eyes, and find the world full of promise. Promises that we must ensure are met with adequate action.

      That action will turn act into the tiny thing it is in reality after the bluster and false authority of academic degrees fired into the world to do harm like intercontinental missiles. Let’s have some kiwi thinking and doing which takes in world information and then is decided by us as well informed, pragmatic people with a humanist and sustainable vision. All this from one kiss.

      Thanks Jacinda and the Labour people who supported her. Make these changes – don’t rest just because you have Labour on the Benches again. We have to face the future and its grim. We can only survive it with spirit intact, working, talking, co-operating with practical, kind people. Don’t look over to National. It will probably take another generation before they can tear themselves away from their arrogance and confabulations.

    • Yep the youthquake has actually happened it is just not often visible – lorde and Jacinda showed it last night. I too have been so heartened by the generational change. Many elders are struggling with this and not all are righties. I love it and I love passing the baton to those who are going to be here making it happen. Thank you Jacinda and labour and the greens and nzf. Thank you for giving hope for a better future.

      • Foreign waka 1.6.1

        Better to the left than the right or god forbid neo libs. Only time will tell whether the same mistakes are made. Not learning from the past, not looking at the everlasting principle of balance .

        • marty mars

          Balance is interesting – is it equilibrium or a settled oscillation or an eventual tendency to always keep moving towards entropy. Politically for me it is being hard left and being okay that others think differently. ☺

    • Kevin 1.7

      AES (armchair expert syndrome) seems to be hard wired into the Kiwi DNA. The older you are the stronger its presence is felt.

      Stuff and other like news sites are rampant with it in the comments section.

    • North 1.8

      Spot on Sanctuary…….without particular articluation the mind is certainly just somehow quietly conscious of the ‘old’ thing. Neh!…….boring.

  2. dv 2

    Re the new house valuations in Ak

    Colliers national director research and consulting, Alan McMahon says

    He said wages had not risen in line with house prices and not everyone could afford a million-dollar property, so many would be looking to the cheaper suburbs.

    No shit sherlock!!!


    Green party are today in the middle of a “minor” scrap over “waka jumping” .


    Part of my soul belongs as a Green Party member, as my family came home to NZ in 1998 after 11yrs in Canada & USA and NZ was on the verge of voting in a new Labour ‘lead’ Government, and my familly joined the ‘alliance/green membership ‘mob’ as they were at that crazy time a very credible lot and had some high profile members in both ‘fledgling’ parties.

    The alliance people sadly had dropped away since then, but we still have an alliance with some HB members today.

    The greens have now ’emerged as another style of Political Party than they were when we joined them in 1999, and like most others we are all still confused about their whole strategy today.

    That having said, I have always agreed with the ‘core’ environmental’ planks and always will but I do seriously miss Jeanettee Fitszimmons and the late Rod Donald whom we all met several times in Napier and today as said we are very distanced from today’s “new green party” members.

    Our heart will always be ‘green’ because they are seriously needed here, especially during the current “global rot” setting in with the savengers who are stealing everything from all countries for profit.

    With assets like water, oil, and many other commodities that are being extracted at such a blind rate that our future is a peril as is the climate that we all depend upon.

    James Shaw we do like now as he seems to be a very level headed individual.

    We hope he takes control of the green party core members and puts out a statement that all is progressing between labour and the green party over this “hickup” and the so called “horse trading” claims over “waka jumping” is just not a big issue as stated but constructive discussion was always on the table over what to do about the side issue that has emerged.

    • tracey 3.1

      Jeanette Fitsimmons re emerged publocly when Turei was being pilloried. To say she is not supportive of the social justice aspect of Green policy requires more evifence than this cleangreen. If that is what you are alluding to.

      Disagreement is healthy. Within and between parties. That Nats seem to have so few internal disagreement suggests either a village of the dammed type caucus or self interest is so embedded they sit on their hands in return for the power and position.

      The Greens are outside Cabinet. That means they can differ from the Government on issues. Until we all mature in this respect we cannot expect politicians to.

      • CLEANGREEN 3.1.1

        Hi Tracey,
        “To say she (jeanette) is not supportive of the social justice”

        NoNoNo, tracey, we do not ‘infer’ Jeanette is not supportive of social justice at all, you missed our point.

        Jeanette is a very warm caring person, she came to napier to meet us over the truck gridlock issue on Napier roads back in 2001 and walked along the Pirimai suburb with our committee to inspect the amount of noisy trucks rattling down the HB Expressway past the closeby houses that are threatening our residents health and wellbeing.

        Jeanette wrote a column in the HB Today after saying it was the worst designed dangerous residential highway through a city she had even seen.

        Click to access Hawkes-Bay-Expressway-Noise-and-air-quality-issues-June-2005.pdf

        This was a significant win for our residents then and jeanette will always be admired for her support of our call for social justice for our community deeply still today affected by the truck gridlock we have worse now since national destroyed our rail services in 2012.

        Greens were very rail supportive as NZF is.

      • greywarshark 3.1.2

        That Herald item above was just building something out of nothing, comparatively. Every decision or thought that the Greens make will be put under a microscope.

        And I couldn’t find an author’s name on it. Just basically scrapings.

    • Molly 3.2

      Reading that article, it strikes me that the problem is not the Greens appallingly bad use of email – or non-actions – since there is no statement from them included.

      It is the swiftness of denigrating replies from Andrew Little, Winston Peters, and Shane Jones.

      How hard is it to say – “Well, that must be part of an internal discussion because they have not made an approach to the coalition/our party yet. We’ll wait until they do before passing a comment”?

      There appears to be no self-discipline being shown here.

      • marty mars 3.2.1

        I do struggle to think someone cannot send an email to the correct place. It doesn’t take much to check it and it’s not exactly new technology and there are plenty of examples where people have got it wrong with major publicity.

        • Molly

          That’s true, but the Greens admin embarassment will be a stronger media target than many of the official policies put out by the last government.

          This is a small issue, which could have easily been deflected by the other parties.

        • greywarshark

          The problem is with email lists that are not obvious until pulled down. There may be numbers of people on them. Better to have individual receipients rather than mass postings.

    • Ad 3.3

      Should be more trading, not less.

      Politicians need to do actual political work,.

      newbie MPs like Golriz are entitled to fuck up once.

      • Antoine 3.3.1

        > newbie MPs like Golriz are entitled to fuck up once.

        I’d say Golriz’s stance on Manus was that once, this is twice


    • weka 3.4

      Green party are today in the middle of a “minor” scrap over “waka jumping” .

      I don’t think so. I think it’s much more likely that the Herald are shit stirring. I wrote this in DR last night.

      Hmm, let’s tease this out a bit.

      It’s not a leak, apparently the email got sent to the media by mistake.

      The Herald cherry picked a bit of the email,

      The Green Party’s justice spokeswoman Golriz Ghahraman, in an internal email accidentally sent to Fairfax, floated the idea of trying to garner support for a National Parihaka Day – the subject of a Green private member’s bill.

      That’s The Herald’s interpretation.

      Here’s the actual words,

      “The Government won’t have the numbers to pass the [waka-jumping] legislation without us, and if we decided to oppose it then they would need to consider other options such as approaching the National Party, who opposed the 2005 bill,” the email says.

      “Opposing the bill would cause political tensions, given the inclusion of the bill in the Labour-NZ First coalition agreement.

      “Our Confidence and Supply Agreement gives us the independence to choose to vote against it. Supporting the bill would be seen as changing and weakening a long-standing and public party position. It would risk criticism from our core supporters.”

      To me that looks like the Greens working through a dilemma and in one email one MP has laid out some of the issues.

      During the parallel coalition negotiations, Green’s co-leader James Shaw put his faith in Jacinda Ardern to ensure that there was nothing in the Labour-NZF deal that the Greens would object to – though he conceded there might be policies that he might not be comfortable with.

      No shit. Part of the value of the set up is that the Greens are free to vote how they want on things not covered in their agreement with Labour. This is how MMP works as designed.

      New Zealand First leader Winston Peters poured scorn on horse-trading tactics.

      “We don’t horse trade.

      This is interesting. Because I would have thought that negotiating around support for legislation is exactly what was intended by the deals that allowed Labour to form government.

      Prime Minister Jacinda Ardern said doing a deal with the Greens over waka-jumping had not come up “in direct conversation”.

      She said she has not given much thought to a National Parihaka Day.

      “I certainly am pleased to see greater observance of those days of New Zealand’s history. I think we should encourage that. Whether or not it becomes a day off is an entirely different issue.”

      So not a big deal for Labour. Little called it horse-trading but other than that where are the ripples of discontent from Labour?

      A spokesperson for the Green Party said the email was an “internal document that was sent in error”.

      “It’s not surprising that Labour Party and Green Party MPs are having these kinds of constructive conversations and working together; in fact, that’s what New Zealanders expect of government parties.

      “It’s commonplace for ministers and MPs to have these kind of conversations – that will continue,” the spokesperson said.

      That’s what I would expect.

      I don’t know what happened. But it does look like the Herald is shit stirring (and yes, no name to the article).

      • Ad 3.4.1

        Little should HTFU.

        Let’s see if he still has his horse-trading dignity left once the Muriwhenua have finished with him.

      • CLEANGREEN 3.4.2

        weka, Good comment there I go along with that fully.

      • DoublePlusGood 3.4.3

        If Winston wanted the Greens to be on board with everything, perhaps he should have got the Greens in on the coalition.

      • tracey 3.4.4

        I doubt nats never accidentally sent an email to the media. I also doubt the media pounced on it without letting them know.

      • lprent 3.4.5

        Yeah. Looks exactly like what I would expect a support partner to a coalition to looking at.

        I guess the anonymous fool at the Herald is just another political illiterate. Don’t they publish that similar idiotic cheap from Howling Mike Hosking as well?

    • DH 3.5

      That Herald article doesn’t feel right. I can’t see any of the quoted people talking to the Herald like that. They all know what the Herald is, I’d expect them to be far more circumspect and guarded in their replies.

      It looks a bit fishy.

    • savenz 3.6

      Very concerning that the Greens would consider opposing the ‘waka jumping’ bill.

      Even worse wanting something so tokenistic as some sort of weird leverage. That thinking (tokenistic) is what has caused Greens to plummet to 6% . It started with red peak taking attention from more important issues.

      A holiday or name change might be symbolic to those on a $200k salary but to voter’s they get pretty disillusioned when the party the vote for’s individuals get bribed or are just so stupid they jump ship and derail the democratic process and the Greens are prepared to oppose legislation to stop that.

      For MMP to work, voters need to know if they vote for a minor party they will not jump ship to support another for their own personal gain.

      Greens should be unconditionally supporting the Waka jumping legislation.

      Whether they want to put National Parihaka Day through should be independent of very important legislation to keep integrity in the democratic process.

      And also the reason it’s necessary is that the National party have a history of derailing democracy by using it to pick off weak minded MP’s.

      Why would the Greens support helping National pick off weak minded MP’s by allowing this waka jumping loophole to remain?

      • Tuppence Shrewsbury 3.6.1

        What is wrong with an electorate mp jumping ship? and should backbenchers not be allowed to hold party leaders to account.

        This law will make representative democracy even less representative. That the greens would trade away the democratic nature of party positions for a national holiday is strange. I thought they had more principles than that

        • One Anonymous Bloke

          The proposal affects list* MPs, to preserve the proportionality of Parliament, as per election results.

          *Nice try. Or are you going to plead ignorance?

          • savenz

            +1 One Anonymous Bloke

            It’s to protect voter’s rights of representation NOT MP’s.

          • alwyn

            Have you actually seen the proposed bill?
            I certainly haven’t seen any wording and the only thing I have seen said merely that Little was considering it.
            Can you provide a link to the bill as it will be put before the house?

            As a side note I suspect there would not be a Green Party in Parliament if such a bill had existed in 1997.
            The Green Party leaders at the time were in Parliament as part of the Alliance. If they had announced, as they did, that they were going to stand independently in 1999 I suspect that Jim Anderton would have demanded that they be expelled from Parliament, and that they would have been replaced by people he thought would remain loyal to him.
            If so I don’t think that the Green Party would have remained in Parliament in 1999. As it was, even with all the publicity and travel subsidies available to sitting MPs they only just scraped back in on their own. Both Fitzsimmons winning Coromandel and the party getting over 5% only happened when the specials came in and got them over the line in both cases.

            If they hadn’t survived then I think they would have been gone for good. The record of parties getting in without already holding seats is not great is it?

            • One Anonymous Bloke


            • McFlock

              So you haven’t read the bill, but you suspect that it would have destroyed the greens in the 1990s? Why do you suspect that the waka-jumping bill will apply to people who announce they will run for another party in the future, without actually leaving or withdrawing support from their current party until the campaign?

              Given that it didn’t stop Anderton doing exactly that in 2002.

              • One Anonymous Bloke

                Alwyn’s concerned.

                • McFlock

                  Really? Gosh, that makes me lose all faith in the Greens and Labour.

                  If an election were held tomorrow, I would most certainly vote National.

                  Thank goodness someone opened my eyes to the looming catastrophe of rampant, totalitarian communism that this government is inflicting upon us.

                  Ardern is the next Robert Mugabe!

              • alwyn

                What I did see about a proposed bill was that Winston wanted to be able to expel people from a party and that they would then be kicked out of the Parliament.
                It wasn’t, from what I heard about it, intended to be limited to people who actually left the party of their own accord. It appeared to be intended it to be anyone a party leader was pissed off about.

                “One of the more surprising matters included in the Labour/NZ First coalition agreement is their joint commitment to pass a ‘Waka Jumping’ Bill”. Such legislation effectively requires any MP who leaves her or his party, whether willingly or not, to also leave Parliament”.

                :” But note that this approach puts an awful lot of power into the hands of a party leader (assuming that she or he still has the backing of her or his party). ”

                Both these extracts are from a RNZ interview with Law Professor Andrew Geddis.
                That is why I wanted to see what any bill was actually going to say.

                The source OAB referred me to doesn’t have the final detail which appears to still be under consideration. Geddis however didn’t seem to think it was intended to be limited to List MPs only.

                As for Jim Anderton. He and the rest of the party ended up pretending they were all still part of one party, even though they were setting up opposition groups.
                As Geddis also said in my link
                “Because neither grouping wanted to leave Parliament, they were forced to pretend they remained one united party even as Jim Anderton set about creating his own new one outside of it”.

                Of course I wouldn’t care, NOW, whether the “Green” party vanished. I would have been disappointed in 1999 though when they seemed to be a predominately environmental group rather than left wing party with only a peripheral interest in the environment. That is, at least to me, what they now seem to be.

                • McFlock

                  What I did see about a proposed bill was that Winston wanted to be able to expel people from a party and that they would then be kicked out of the Parliament.

                  Well then, according to part 9 of the NZFirst constitution, it appears you were misinformed.

                  You needn’t be concerned at all.

                  • alwyn

                    In that case Professor Geddis would be wrong wouldn’t he?
                    However what is to say that the Party Constitution would continue to apply if NZF get their bill passed? They are very to amend after all.
                    And who is going to hold that the Party Constitution would, or could, override the law of the land? If there was a conflict between what the Constitution said and what the law said the law is always going to win.
                    The NZF party used to have, I understand, a clause that any MP who left the Party agreed to resign from Parliament and pay the party $300,000 while about it.
                    It is mentioned here
                    According to Professor Geddis, quoted in this link, such a clause would be tossed out by a court if they tried to enforce it. That would seem to be the reason they want a law to do it for them.

                    • McFlock

                      As I said, it appears you were misinformed.

                      And you also confuse Winston committing an act beyond his powers in the party constitution (as you put it “Winston wanted to be able to expel people from a party and that they would then be kicked out of the Parliament”, when he does not even have this power under the party constitution) and there being a conflict between the party constitution and the law.

                      So again, your concern for the job security of the poor NZ1 MPs whom you believe serve at the whim of a petulant and capricious Winston Peters shows that you fundamentally misunderstand both the situation and how democratic parties operate.

                    • Foolish Alwyn, foolish,

                      I thought you were less argumentative than this.

                  • One Anonymous Bloke

                    Not only that, the poor sap hasn’t even figured out what the Green Party does after all this time.

    • Just sounds like an internal conversation that accidentally got released to the MSM and now the MSM are attacking like the good little National Party attack dogs they are.

      I doubt if was going any further and probably wouldn’t have been policy but ideas do need to be discussed before hand whether they’re used or not.

  4. dv 4

    interesting development!!!


    Australia opens door to New Zealand taking Manus Island refugees

    The Australian Government has acknowledged that New Zealand could deal direct with Papua New Guinea over taking some of the Manus Island refugees – and Australia could not block such a deal.

    Australia’s Immigration Minister Peter Dutton has opened the door to a possible resettlement deal between the two sovereign states – but he indicated Australia would not be pleased.

    • alwyn 4.1

      I think that the headline and the Herald interpretation in para 2 are different to the real story as expressed by the Australian Minister.

      All he really said was that New Zealand, as a Sovereign Country, can do whatever they like. He then said that if they do they had better think very hard about it as Australia wasn’t going to like it at all.

      His statement was not a great deal different to saying that North Korea can test nuclear weapons if they wish to. What could Australia, or anyone else except China actually do to stop them? However don’t expect Australia to allow trade with North Korea if they continue to do so.

      He was just about as undiplomatic about it as you can be. I was over there recently and there were definite signs that Australia was going to make things even harder for New Zealanders over there than they are already. Expect having to get a specific visa before you go will be the next step if we let the Manus Islanders into New Zealand I fear.

  5. Ad 5

    I think I just felt an earthquake in Hollywood.

    Gal Gadot, heroine of Wonder Woman, has announced that the main producer (financial backer) of the previous Wonder Woman will not take part in Wonder Woman II.


    This is after well-publicised accusations against Ratner of serious sexual impropriety.

    Now, if anyone can remember when a producer was removed from a blockbuster Hollywood franchise for sexual impropriety because the lead acress demanded it, could you all please let me know.

    And this is getting cut out of a machine that was about to start printing hundreds of millions more dollars in profit, based on the track record of the last one.

    Money, finally, did not talk.

    As it stands, this looks like Wonder Woman just hit real life., very hard, and caused an earhtquake.

    • Antoine 5.1

      Fine work Ms Gadot

    • weka 5.2

      good news, but the earthquake has been going on for some time now 😉

      • Barfly 5.2.1

        Gal Gadot …Israeli settler Zionist who tweeted her support of the IDF in 2014 while they were according the UN enquiry were killing 1462 civilians (at least) including 495 children methinks wonder woman has mud on her cape.

        • weka

          Yes. The good news isn’t about Gadot, it’s about Ratner being removed.

          • weka

            If we were to remove every actor who supported a nation state that committed war atrocities, there’d be no Hollywood.

            • Barfly

              The ethnic cleansing ,atrocities , denial of human rights et cetera over a 69 year period doesn’t this make Israel some sort of record holder? Shouldn’t those who support this be held to account or is it ok because of her “feminist” victory? Or is it that so many Hollywood figures are Zionist?
              Does that make it ok?

              • Union city greens

                Flippant, but, Gal Gadot punches a Neo Nazi. Who you gonna cheer for?

                • Barfly

                  Good question…where’s the Palestinian in the story?

                  • Union city greens

                    I presume they would also want to punch a Nazi

                    • North

                      And of course they would want to punch Nazi Zionism but let’s not worry about those Palestinians. Best we clean Hollywood first…….

                    • Barfly

                      Well the Palestinians have got great reason to hate Nazism after all it was the western worlds guilt at the Holocaust which led to the formation of Israel and thus the Palestinian slow motion Holocaust – still ongoing after 69 years.

                      The Nazis hold all the records for industrialised murder and disenfranchisement of a people.

                      The Zionists hold the record (in living memory ) for the disenfranchisement and destruction of a people – in the length of its campaign – 69 years and counting.

                    • Union city greens

                      “And of course they would want to punch Nazi Zionism but let’s not worry about those Palestinians. Best we clean Hollywood first…….”

                      One misogynist, pervert, abuser at a time

  6. Morrissey 6

    No. 2: Bill O’Reilly

    Burgess, who was working as a temp at Fox at the time, said it only took O’Reilly about two weeks to start harassing her.

    “He always walked past my desk and he made, like, a grunting noise,” Burgess said. “As time went on, I noticed … if no one was around, he would make that noise.”

    Burgess then went on to talk about an incident in an elevator. …



    “GROPERS” is researched and presented by GroperWatch, a division of Daisycutter Sports Inc.

    No.1 George Herbert Walker Bush

  7. tv1980 8

    Mr Twyford

    Re http://www.nzherald.co.nz/business/news/article.cfm?c_id=3&objectid=11944720

    Chinese speculators are having one last shot at the cherry.

    Stop them act now, cut out their cancer.

    We owe them nothing, they owe us our houses.

    You have the mandate and the capability, strike a meaningful blow and send a message don’t wait until Xmas, do it next week.

    Every one sold is one we have to build.

    [Letting this racist shit through, only because it’s a fairly stark example of the type of racist and xenophobic rhetoric some (too many) in this country seem to be fairly comfortable with.] – Bill

    • savenz 8.1

      Isn’t that both Labour and Green policy to stop overseas sales of residential property??

      It’s the Natz that wants NZ to be a one world monopoly board.

      Personally think they need to include all Land including farms and commercial property. Just let foreigners buy the rights on leases. (Take a note from China, no land owed by foreign interests, any business interests have to partner with Chinese firms etc)

    • Muttonbird 8.2

      Seriously, Bill, I think you’re being over dramatic there. tv1980 specifically said Chinese speculators, not simply Chinese. Despite the questionable data begrudgingly collected by the last government, cheap Chinese capital has made Auckland unliveable for many families.

      It’s been a serious problem for some time along with the same behaviour from Australian speculators. To sit there in a foreign country, as a foreign citizen, shopping online for Kiwi houses like you’re on eBay is not acceptable when such a major issue has developed.

      • One Anonymous Bloke 8.2.1

        The ethnicity of the speculators is irrelevant.

        • Muttonbird

          But is it irrelevant in this case? Chinese off-shore investors are a unique case both here and in Canada I’ve heard.

          China is not a fully democratised country. Corruption is high. Unreliable export products. Weak labour laws. Unsustainable growth.

          All this combined into a lot of cheap money and a lot of cowboys entering the NZ domestic property market through websites dedicated to selling Kiwi houses on the internet and through the relationships with new immigrants who acted as proxy buyers.

          So desperate was the last government to maintain growth figures at any cost they encouraged this form of foreign investment whether by direct off-shore marketing or by proxy purchasing.

          Now, foreign investment has its place but not in the domestic housing market at a time when young families are being shunted from pillar to post because of house-flipping in an over heated market.

          • One Anonymous Bloke

            Now, foreign investment has its place but not in the domestic housing market at a time when young families are being shunted from pillar to post because of house-flipping in an over heated market.

            A problem which is entirely independent of ethnicity.

            China is not a fully democratised country. Corruption is high. Unreliable export products. Weak labour laws. Unsustainable growth.

            A separate set of problems, some of which are of concern in terms of foreign policy and maintaining local freedoms.

          • weka

            The problem for people that want to talk about speculators from specific countries is that NZ is generally pretty racist towards people from some places and not others. Each time we have this conversation we have people saying shit that harms specific ethnicities. If we want to have the conversation then we need to take more care of that side of things. That’s the problem here, the lack of care for Chinese people, especially those that live here including people whose families have been here as long as any Pākehā ones.

            So if you want to talk about Chinese speculators, my suggestion is actively push back against the racism, and talk more about the problems of speculators from places we’re not as racist about. At least then there is an indication of trying to not buy into or allow racist narratives.

          • greywarshark

            The house buying ploy by many overseas financiers was little different to being a place to park ill-gotten gains, as in trusts and Panama Papers. Only in this case they were buying our shelter from under our feet, in the likely expectation they would not be closely scrutinised and make good capital gains. Pity about the stability of the NZhousing prices.

      • tracey 8.2.2

        If Australian speculators are also a problem the tv framing it as a chibese problem is racist

        • Muttonbird

          Australian speculators have also been an issue, anecdotal stories have been around of wealthy housewives flying in groups to New Zealand for the weekend and buying 5 properties each.

          As has been made clear by just about everyone, Australians are untouchable for whatever reason. But this doesn’t mean the effect by off-shore Chinese speculators be ignored because it might offend someone. They are added fuel to the fire.

          • tracey

            I know about the aussie real estate trips. Anyone who speaks so vehemently about chinese speculators above and doesnt know ozzies are a problem too need expect that their ignorance may be named racism

            • Muttonbird

              I know about the Aussie real estate trips too but see if you can find anyone in authority, anyone at all, anywhere willing to put a stop to it.

              I would.

              • tracey

                Well i assume they are exempt from any other foreign ownership rules cos of CER. We are being royally by Australia.

      • Bill 8.2.3

        Stop them act now, cut out their cancer.

        Putting aside the grammatical foot in mouth aspect of that, what I took tv1980 to be saying at the time is that Chinese are a cancer that need to be stopped and cut out.

        • weka

          I took the cancer as being speculation, but either way it’s still either directly or indirectly racist. Tbh, I saw it in the moderation queue and left it there for someone else to deal with 😉

    • Foreign waka 8.3

      TV1980 -Wasn’t there a report recently that it is mostly Kiwi investors who are the culprit? Easy money (perceived) no work, sounds about right- yes?
      Most foreign nationals settling here feel the owe something in return to the country and will not be inclined to sh.. in the new nest. See it for what it is please.

    • AB 9.1

      Brilliant – a Scottish lassie with her head firmly screwed on it seems. One of the more endearing characteristics of the Scots in general.

    • greywarshark 11.1

      That was interesting link:
      IIRC Britain spends 49 billion pounds on paying its interest each year, which exceeds its Defence and Housing Budgets. Now is that good financial management? I’m on the edge of not having any credit on my card. That isn’t good on my part. But all those clever bastards at the top of the heap? Does it inspire confidence in our leaders there or their followers here that they are in so deep?

      What happened to the good advice that you should pay within a month all that you borrowed to keep the interest down? And to be aware that any cash borrowed becomes an immediate interest bearing debt.

  8. joe90 12

    Nope, never saw this coming.


    (CNN – )A total of 210,000 gallons of oil leaked Thursday from the Keystone Pipeline in Marshall County, South Dakota, the pipeline’s operator, TransCanada, said.
    Crews shut down the pipeline Thursday morning and officials are investigating the cause of the leak.

    This is the largest Keystone oil spill to date in South Dakota, said Brian Walsh, a spokesman for the state’s Department of Environment and Natural Resources.
    In April 2016, there was a 400-barrel release — or 16,800 gallons — with the majority of the oil cleanup completed in two months, Walsh said.
    About 5,000 barrels of oil spilled Thursday.


    • Pat 13.1

      caucus votes, yes…..guess she feels the need to show Bridges he has some competition…..how long will Bill be willing to fight them all off?

      Ambition undressed and it aint pretty

    • You have to wonder if those present all laughed when Judith Collins, of all people, started pontificating about tact and diplomacy. I particularly loved this bit:

      She said Ms Ardern needed to “learn from Winston Peters that you actually do have to be a little bit more statesman-like when you’re overseas and representing New Zealand”.

      What? I thought representing NZ overseas meant bringing your husband along on overseas trips so you can use your position to help his business? This is just confusing…

    • Foreign waka 13.3

      Going for the top job I guess.

  9. savenz 14

    Landmark study links Tory austerity to 120,000 deaths
    Government is accused of ‘economic murder’


  10. McFlock 16

    Promising maiden speech from Labour list MP Liz Craig.

    Child poverty will definitely be a focus for her.

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