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Open mike 18/07/2021

Written By: - Date published: 6:00 am, July 18th, 2021 - 118 comments
Categories: open mike - Tags:

Open mike is your post.

For announcements, general discussion, whatever you choose.

The usual rules of good behaviour apply (see the Policy).

Step up to the mike …

118 comments on “Open mike 18/07/2021 ”

  1. Ad 1

    Even in the middle of winter rain, the Auckland region water levels are still tracking the same levels as last year, and still well below the 2019 trend. That means a likely summer of more water rationing.

    https://aucklandwatersupply.co.nz/

    As soon as Watercare taps in that second big pipe into the Waikato, about 40% of New Zealand's population will have more secure fresh water access. Cna't happen fast enough IMHO.

    https://www.stuff.co.nz/national/politics/local-democracy-reporting/300358393/governments-25b-three-waters-sweetener-fails-to-gain-traction-with-auckland-mayor

    Mayor Goff isn't buying the outright bribe by the Government to join in their water reforms. Unless one of the other regions like Canterbury all vote to go into it, I think this reform is in trouble.

    Water supply and treatment are hard enough without a Max Bradford-scale commercialisation exercise.

  2. Morrissey 3

    Daniell and Espiner are on the case of those totalitarian, self-censoring Chinese

    Red Line, RNZ National, Sunday 18 July 2021, 7:30 a.m.

    This morning's episode culminated with John Daniell intoning gravely that the CCP "doesn't have to tell the Chinese media what to say", that they have learned to self-censor. His co-presenter, Guyon Espiner, expressed wonderment at that totalitarian control of the press. These awed comments were underscored by a minatory soundtrack of thrumming basso profundo chords.

    The unspoken implication: How lucky we are to live in a country with a press that doesn't self-censor.

    Remarkably, both of them made those comments without any hint of self-awareness or irony.

    https://www.rnz.co.nz/programmes/the-detail/story/2018802602/china-is-the-relationship-we-don-t-understand

    • Patricia Bremner 3.1

      Just so Morrissey, they can see the moat in another's eye but not in their own.devil

      • Morrissey 3.1.1

        they can see the mote in another's eye but not in their own.

        On RNZ National’s light chat show The Panel a couple of months ago, one of the few guests who has anything interesting to say, Chris Gallavin, made a comment about Tony Blair. Unlike the host Wallace Chapman and the others (Robert Kelly and Ali Jones) in the studio, Gallavin wasn't content to make lighthearted quips about Blair's mullet haircut: Gallavin reminded them that Blair was responsible for crimes against humanity in Iraq. That comment was met with a stony silence and then this scolding response from the producer Robert Kelly: "A-a-a-a-and as a public broadcaster I'm not touching that with a pole."

        The awkward silence from both Chapman and Jones was telling. Gallavin had failed to self-censor, and the reaction of the other three—either Chapman's and Jones's stunned silence or Kelly's embarrassed dismissal—showed that they were well aware of that.

        Gallavin might have been speaking to Red Guards in 1960s China, or Soviet Commissars in the 1930s. It is an act of hypocrisy and audacity for Radio NZ to single out CHINESE journalists for acting similarly to the host and producer of The Panel. I would bet a small fortune that neither John Daniell nor Guyon Espiner has ever questioned, let alone confronted, RNZ management about its softball, PR, self-censored interviews with the likes of Tony Blair, his wife Cherie, Blair’s hatchet man Alistair Campbell, or any of the host of other grotesques and criminals of British politics that it has indulged over the years.

        https://www.rnz.co.nz/audio/player?audio_id=2018793939

        • Ed 3.1.1.1

          Thank you Morrissey and Patricia.

          Radio New Zealand hosts and panellists constantly self-censor, following the party line on China, Russia, Syria, the Ukraine, Palestine, Venezuela, Hong Kong….

          If you are looking for independent thinking journalism on foreign affairs, steer clear of RNZ.

    • left for dead 3.2

      Exactly @Morrissey a waist of our money Rnz,I have fears for that network.

  3. Jenny how to get there 4


    James Hanson may have to retitle his famous book,

    ‘STORMS OF MY GRANDCHILDREN’

    to

    ‘STORMS OF MY CHILDREN’

    • Jenny how to get there 4.1

      '

      June 1 – July 17, the 'New Normal'

      Wetter winter coming: Why NZ can expect more 'atmospheric rivers'

      1 Jun, 2021 11:51 AM

      The Government has declared the flooding as an "adverse event" for Canterbury meaning $500,000 in funding can be unlocked for farmers and growers.

      https://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/wetter-winter-coming-why-nz-can-expect-more-atmospheric-rivers/OILIJ7BFVA7S7QMZVEKDM4NTDM/

      • Jenny how to get there 4.1.1

        In a win, win, for the taxpayers and the rational and conscientious farmers who take their responsibility to the climate and environment seriously, the protesting 'farmers and growers' who object to climate change mitigation and prevention measures, like the Ute Tax, should not have to pay this tax, if they agree to forgo goverment assistance when their farms and crops are damaged in extreme weather events.

        I think the government should seriously make this offer to the protest organisers and their supporters.

        That should shut them up.

        In light of the headlines from here and around the world of the recent extreme weather events, droughts, floods, fires, heatwaves, crop failures and deaths, I would venture, zero to none would agree to take up such an offer, if it was made to them.

        NZ farmers in tractor protest against environmental ‘ute tax’ rules

        By Asia Pacific Report

        July 17, 2021

        Groundswell NZ organised the “Howl of a Protest” in more than 40 towns and cities across New Zealand over recent environmental regulations, the “ute tax” and a Pacific seasonal worker shortage…..

        Labour MP for Wairarapa Kieran McAnulty told RNZ that most of the farmers he had heard from told him the protest did not represent their views.

        Farmers doing their bit
        He said most farmers had been doing their bit for a long time, and he worried the protest would paint all farmers as climate deniers who did not care about the environment.

        “I know that’s not true but I would hate for that to be the image of farmers as a result of today …

        … McAnulty said there was a very strong economic argument for the proposed changes, the farming leadership bodies and the majority of farmers were on board with them, and the protest would undermine the good consensus work done in the past four years.

        “That’s what the farming leadership bodies are saying, they’re on board with this — Federated Farmers is on board with this. Unfortunately that message is being lost with today’s protest.”

        https://eveningreport.nz/2021/07/17/nz-farmers-in-tractor-protest-against-environmental-ute-tax-rules/

        ….The National Party is among the most ardent critics of the government’s electric car rebate scheme and has said it will immediately reverse the policy if returned to power.*

        *[Thankfully what the Nutional Party had to say is irrellevant as they will not be allowed near the levers of power for some time.]

        • Stephen D 4.1.1.1

          http://werewolf.co.nz/
          Gordon Campbell on the money again.

          Back in the day, everyone either had a family member or knew someone who worked on a farm. These days us townies are much more disconnected from the land. National are fomenting this division for political purposes. To the detriment of the country.

  4. Dennis Frank 5

    There's a comprehensive review of Green politics here: https://www.cfr.org/backgrounder/how-green-party-success-reshaping-global-politics

    "As British green party activist Derek Wall argues in his book on green politics, the movement has important differences from both the left and right. Most greens see themselves on the economic and social left, but their focus on decentralization and local solutions separates them from many traditional socialist parties."

    Greens are currently part of the government in these countries: Austria, Belgium, Finland, Ireland, Luxembourg, New Zealand, Sweden. Seven – the magic number! We may be entering a transition phase in which the Greens achieve leverage globally.

    "Most green parties have committed themselves to four pillars:

    • ecological sustainability;
    • grassroots democracy;
    • social justice; and,
    • nonviolence."

    After four decades it's high time the Green movement realises such minimalism is no longer fit for purpose. The survival of humanity now and into the future depends on the shift of its relation to nature from parasitic to symbiotic. So a spiritual principle is implied as the essential fifth element in the ideological framing of Green politics.

    The Council on Foreign Relations has long been one of the key US think-tanks, operating at the top level of the hierarchy: "With over 5,000 members, the institution’s ranks include top government officials, scholars, lawyers, nonprofit professionals, journalists, educators, religious leaders, and business executives." Their website update on Green politics serves to brief members on a significant global trend. It signifies potential entry of the Greens into the US establishment.

    • Ad 5.1

      In the 2019 European election, the Greens got 20% in Germany. Since then they've looked like they were going somewhere then went rapidly backwards.

      We've had five decades of Greens (+Values) in New Zealand, and it's only this year they've got more than marginal political wins.

      Greens are making some ground in UK politics, particularly at a local level and in Scotland.

      https://www.bbc.com/news/uk-politics-57048811

      Overall their rise is slow worldwide, but growing in continental Europe:

      https://www.cfr.org/backgrounder/how-green-party-success-reshaping-global-politics

      I don't see them doing more than propping up other governments at best, unless they can get more coherent on issues such as nuclear energy, military force, foreign policy, and cooperation with right-wing and populist parties.

      • Dennis Frank 5.1.1

        Depends on how much the future is a child of the past. Your appraisal is in accord with how I've seen things moving the past quarter-century. Most folk do default to the status quo of left/right even when those are both part of the problem. Collective solutions to social problems are normally defeated by the establishment, so few advocates spend time promoting them, and even fewer are capable of political collaboration that works.

        Nonetheless the survival imperative will eventually overwhelm the status quo, so the fact that the CFR are signalling their shift gives us some hope.

        The leftism/centrism hybrid thing has begun to gell here. The Dunedin rebel standing against James Shaw for the leadership faces the intellectual challenge of how to frame his stand above & beyond impatience. Should be an interesting test. Is he just another Jack McDonald? Or can he see the big picture?

  5. Ad 6

    What a pleasure it is to see Stephanie Rodgers commenting here again.

    Boots Theory is still the most trenchant and concise feminist commentary around.

    • Shanreagh 6.1

      Not sure where you have been seeing this Ad. The showing on the Womens Day thread has been poor in my view. I for one have been disappointed as it would be good to get a younger feminist perspective. No knowledge or recognition of the vast background/history of feminism, once again the oldies of feminism times past are among those doing the heavy lifting in the discussion of the issues.

      Boots Theory is still the most trenchant and concise feminist commentary around.

      Far from being this one commenter on the Womens Day thread has written in response to SR

      a long list of mantras isn’t discussion.

      Tracey 10.1

      The responses have been formulaic on the issues.

      Squashing people down is not a viable way of getting support or educating on the issues.

      My big concern is that the amendment may not get through because of what is happening out in the field, the fomenting of civil unrest. This is different from the 1981 Springbok tour issue as the Govt has signalled that it will enact legislation to fix/improve the issue. The 1981 the then Govt stood resolutely with the pro tour people.

      That moderates ie the centre on which we are depending on this issue, will see it as too much of a risk and that the religious extremists who have had a voice in Womens issues for too long over the years will marshall themselves to force it out based on the unrest it is causing.

      • Ad 6.1.1

        I'm always impressed with the way simply praising a commenter who left here after substantial bullying, turns right into insults about whether one is feminist, the entire history of feminism, one's lineage into the Springbok Tour, and the role of religious extremism within New Zealand feminism … and that unless you can follow all of that, you are "squashing people down".

        Pull back from your keyboard if all you have is insults.

        • Shanreagh 6.1.1.1

          Far out. I have no knowledge of bullying or any background and really it has nothing to do with the issue. Why would it? The issue is about knowledge that we are able to use to help us learn. Why am I not able to say that I was disappointed?

          Just to clarify I have been amazed, astounded and welcome all the views in The Women Day thread. I would dearly love to get a view from the ones who feel that attacking others trying to find out what the issues are about (ie talking about the SUFW meetings and why people have been attempting to shut them down ie stop discussion on the issues.)
          There have been other points raised that would be good to have a well crafted response from another POV.

          You have misinterpreted what I have said above, if you think it is insulting. What I have said is/was the reality for many of us, we will need to get the centre on side for it to go anywhere.

          We would welcome over in the Womens thread contributions from younger 'anyones'.

          What does not get very far are formulaic responses. Many of us support the legislation and fear that this growing unrest seemingly promulgated by those who have the most to gain by its enactment will mean it may not get through.

          • Andre 6.1.1.1.1

            When it comes to getting people on side, I can report that those arguing an exclusionary position have indeed been influential in shaping my opinion on topics where previously I had been undecided. Just not in the direction they were trying for.

            • Shanreagh 6.1.1.1.1.1

              From what I am reading the issue relating to the birth certificate and changing it where needed is one of great importance to the trans community. It is of great importance now to me that the enactment go through based on this and in terms of equity for all which as been part of my life.

              I am holding on to this. I will continue to support it despite the 'shooting oneself in the foot' and 'own goals' that are occurring when discussion is closed down or attempted to be closed down.

            • weka 6.1.1.1.1.2

              Would you mind sharing why?

            • TeWhareWhero 6.1.1.1.1.3

              Well, it's good you've finally made a decision, Andre – the issue's only been floating around on the left since 1990 or so. I first blogged about it in 9 years ago when this most marginalised and sidelined of all minorities managed to get a tampon ad pulled – and completely expunged from the historical record apart from some stills and well-buried links to the news stories of the day.

              That was the point Greer was crowned as Chief Bitch-Witch (TERF was yet to become the all-purpose insult.)

              Looking back at that post, although I was very aware of the issues, having been a feminist and on the left since the early 70s, I never saw this coming. In 2015 (a seminal year for the development of Transgenderism as a political movement) I saw a video which had 4 million views at the time, by a men's rights vlogger "Turd Flinging Monkey" calling for his fellow MGTOW monks (really, it's a thing) – to pose as "transgender lesbians" on social media to "fuck up feminists"- but even then I didn't register all the implications.

              I can hardly be blamed for that – after all, most of the loudest opiners on the subject only got on board the trans rights train very recently.

              Meanwhile – NZ continues to imprison more indigenous women per capita than any other country. The use of solitary confinement in NZ prisons has increased on Labour's watch. Until there was an outcry, some women prisoners were shackled during childbirth. Corrections used methods tantamount to torture against "difficult" wāhine….. I want to write about stuff like that – and poverty, homelessness, substandard housing, health triaging, how we are going to confront the rise of rightwing populism and authoritarianism which is lurking in the wings learning its lines – so that's what I'm going to do.

              • weka

                I'd forgotten about Turd Flinging Monkey! That there are third and fourth actors in the war, with their own agenda, and with substantial cyber tech skills, is something that isn't foregrounded, and it should be. I don't think this aspect of it can be underestimated. MRAs and neoliberal power mongers laughing all the way to the bank.

                • Shanreagh

                  Weka, 'at war with their own agenda' seems to me to be a way of explaining the rationale???? (if there is one) for shutting up, or trying to, any debate on the issue about birth certificates.

                  It is happening so frequently that looks like strategy. This picketing, litigation etc can't all be spontaneous can it?

                  But why?

                  • weka

                    I wrote a reply in the Women's Day thread too.

                    MRAs have an obvious reason to fuck with both feminists and trans people.

                    Gender activists see GCFs as the enemy, so shutting GCFs down is righteous. They're well organised online and have a lot of community group influence.

                    I would guess but don't have any evidence that there are also people with high tech skills running bots on social media to fuck with citizens and undermine democracy.

                    The religious right especially in the US are another complicating factor.

                    It's complex, and the left infighting so bitterly over this is happening at the worst possible time. That we are getting less and less able to talk with each other and disagree is alarming to me.

                  • WeTheBleeple

                    "But why?"

                    Some people can never be wrong. Others are paid professional cats among the pigeons whose entire objective is to disturb and disrupt.

                    What agendas are working with, and against, a cause. The trolls are from the professional against camp, but come well disguised.

                    Provided you convince people there is still debate to be had – an issue does not get settled. Leaving something in litigation is just as effective as shutting it down.

                • TeWhareWhero

                  A couple of years back there was a tweet from someone referencing TFM and that video, which I hadn't keep a link to. I copied the link again but have lost it somewhere in the vast amount of stuff I have archived. I can't face trawling through all the woman-hating vileness to find it. I'm in no doubt there are all manner of bad faith actors stirring the pot. I can't make up my mind whether I'm amused, appalled, or depressed by leftists swallowing stuff which back in the day we'd have suspected was a CIA (or similar) psy-op.

            • Nic the NZer 6.1.1.1.1.4

              I was wondering what changed your mind about the veracity of the latest Russiagate museings. Its good to see you don't actually support the guy dismissing all the credible journalists as shrieking moonbats.

              • Andre

                First: what you think you saw was not what was actually there.

                Second: if you want to have a go at something that's going on on another thread, have your go at it over where it belongs instead of hijacking an unrelated thread.

          • Shanreagh 6.1.1.1.2

            Ad, I clicked in SR avatar and the columns came up. It was after reading those and then reading the contributions in the thread that I was disappointed.

            I have no knowledge of any background about SR on these boards. How would I? Does it have relevance? Why would it?

            Do we have to now self censor in case we might offend someone whose back ground we know nothing of?

            Seems a bit odd to me.

            • greywarshark 6.1.1.1.2.1

              I don't understand the various fluid methods of stopping discussion for some reason that is then counted as something negative because it is criticism. SR is something new to me also.

              Here is what I found on google about what its meaning probably is.

              Screen Recording (Copyright Protected/Private) Media Is Theoretically Illegal Unless You Are Licensed. … In these cases, as a streaming viewer or an online event attendee, screen recording is not just a personal thing, because it may break some rules or even laws.14/07/2020

              Is Screen Recording Illegal on PC? Any Copyright Infringement Here? https://www.recmaster.net › how-to › is-screen-recording-…

            • Ad 6.1.1.1.2.2

              If you had no knowledge of Stephanie Rodgers when there was plenty on her overultiple sites and years, then you commented about my praise of her her in ignorance.

              • greywarshark

                I'm just expressing general ignorance Ad I don't know everything as you do.

                • Incognito

                  @ 6.1.1.1.2.1:

                  SR is something new to me also.

                  Are you saying that you have never read a post and/or commented under a post by SR here on TS?

                  Are you saying that you had never heard of SR and/or Boots Theory before and despite that blog showing up in the Feeds section of this site?

                  Call me incredibly incredulous.

            • gsays 6.1.1.1.2.3

              "Do we have to now self censor in case we might offend someone whose back ground we know nothing of?"

              I find myself doing this often. Being very careful what I type.

              In an a related vein, I've learnt not to comment after 3 homebrew ciders and never after any mead.

              What seems, in my head,funny, insightful or skewering comes across as clumsy, brash and provocative.

              • Incognito

                Admirable self-constraint angel

              • McFlock

                Yeah, there's always the "it didn't sound like that when I wrote it" problem.

                The main redline for me is if I have to delete more than two f-words in a comment, or clauses like "you infantile, petulant manbaby" (and there are many other expressions that have been typed and deleted over the years). Then it's definitely time to not make a comment but instead to go have a cup of tea, no matter how stupid I think someone else is being.

                • Incognito

                  Writing comments in Word and then copying & pasting them into the comment field/editor can help smooth out and blunt the sharper edges. There’s no time limit in Word.

                  • McFlock

                    I generally catch the worst of it before hitting "submit comment".

                    Those times when writing and rewriting entire paragraphs before going "screw it, I'm off to bed".

                • left for dead

                  McFlock, self description is fine, sarc !

            • Incognito 6.1.1.1.2.4

              Self-moderation rather than self-censoring.

              Ignorance is not a ‘deadly sin’ but it does tend to get called out here. Ignorance is also relative, of course.

              Me thinks that you might be taking it too hard 🙂

          • Anker 6.1.1.1.3

            100% Shanreagh in reponse to Ad.

            "substantial bullying" that's no good. What was the nature of the bullying? What were the issues? I would hope that the moderators shut down substantial bullying.

            • weka 6.1.1.1.3.1

              TS has a long complex history re women authors. Don’t think it can be adequately explained at least not easily at this time, in part because some of it played out in the backend

              • Anker

                I honestly don't recall seeing Stephanie commenting on here.

                I have noticed and at times read her blog "Boots theory" .. She still seems to be writing it.

                Does Stephanie write under another name of the Standard.

                Sorry for your suffering Stephane

                • weka

                  Stephanie was a long time author and commenter. You can find her posts and comments using her name in the search box.

                  • Anker

                    Ok cheers, Weka. Was she bullied on the Standard or on her blog. Not that it would matter to her. Bullying is bullying.

                    I find things get a little heated on this site, and like others I count to 10 or something before I post (or try to). I know I can be a bit feisty, but I trust moderators to make sure things don't cross the line. That's why I was asking about Stephanie, cause I generally trust the Standard not to let things get too out of hand

              • RedLogix

                in part because some of it played out in the backend

                What played out was quite simple really. A group of pro-feminist authors were absolutely opposed to me expressing the idea that IPV (Intimate Partner Violence) was perhaps better understood as an enduring problem in which both sexes played their role, and that in order to make progress both sexes had their own experiences and voices that should be heard.

                Well that set off a reaction – the mere suggestion that the 'patriarchy' might not be the sole explanation for all the evils of the world was an anathema. I was subject to sustained bullying and emotional manipulation in a massive pile-on. One author – much to my considerable disappointment at the time – resigned citing my problematic presence. The whole story need not be repeated, but the upshot was that in order to keep the peace I made the commitment at the time not to comment on anything directly related to gender henceforth.

                That was about four years ago and I believe with maybe a few trifling exceptions, I've self-censored on the topic since. Moreover weka has since pointedly refused to directly engage me on virtually any topic whatsoever (social exclusion being a preferred female form of aggression as my partner pointed out to me a while back). I've been the subject of countless bullshit moderations where obviously on topic comments get moved to OM as 'distractions' simply because she disagrees with my view. In general I've been made as unwelcome as possible and as a result I've scaled back my participation considerably.

                In addition weka has had a very free hand on moderation and authoring in the backend for at least four years now, while I've almost completely avoided any involvement in that space. The idea that she constantly repeats that 'TS is unsafe for women' is nonsense.

                And now this entire 'gender critical debate' arises, that plays out the same shitty Identity Politics game but now weka finds herself at the wrong end of it – just as I did four years ago. I'm one of the few male regulars here (Sanctuary is the other that springs to mind) who actually supports her position on principle yet she cannot even acknowledge this, continuing to insinuate 'problematic male behaviour in the backend'.

                I can even bring myself to accept a 'womens only' thread (a privilege that's obvious she would never tolerate being extended to male only voices) even though I have some reservations. But again that's not good enough, still TS is problematic for you.

                These insinuations that TS isn't safe for 'women' need to stop. TS has in fact given you every support and encouragement possible for years. On my part I've stepped back and ceded uncontested to you the public space to run whatever viewpoint you like. You've been given pretty much full rein to curate threads far more aggressively than any other moderator, to make them the safe spaces you want them to be. You can find of course plenty of moments where people have disagreed with you – almost none where you have been personally attacked, slurred or arbitrarily moderated against.

                In the past year I've been reading these 'trans gender critical' threads, it's clear that many biological women are finding themselves wrongly marginalised, emotionally manipulated and in other forums outright cancelled. Part of me is tempted to snicker at the deep irony of it all, but instead I've broken my self-imposed silence to express my support for the SUFW position as a matter of important principle. As you've recently discovered – the ability to discuss and debate across deeply held differences of opinion is important. The descent into mutually hostile tribal groups that cannot tolerate each other's presence, much less listen to each other, is the predictable and degenerate consequence of Identity Politics. Consequences you're now experiencing for yourself.

                The only difference here is that you've had the unconstrained opportunity to use TS as a safe space to both defend and promote your voice. It's time you acknowledged that.

          • Jan Rivers 6.1.1.1.4

            You are absolutely right that the responses have been weak and formulaic. But you are mistaken I think if you believe that there is much critical thinking on this issue. I've been looking for good reasons as to why I should desist from fighting for women's sex based rights to be retained in the face of legislation that risks them becoming meaningless and found nothing that is convincing. Believe me it is a thankless task, as well as utterly tiresome, to be called a hater and to be accused of causing suicide and all manner of other nonsense by advocates for the bill. “No debate” is not a claim that is fit call for those who wish to live in a democracy after all.

            I think it is because the so called allies of transgender people have been able to get away with simple intimidation – calling discussion hatred and making baseless claims of transphobia – for 4 years!!!!! It has been successful in shutting many down. No actual case has been marshalled.

            In any case a winning and robust case would have recognised the need to balance rights and develop a fair solution not a winner takes all result. But instead of that the BDMRR Bill’s self-id provisions that were nearly forced through in 2018 appears to have been the result of a coordinated and covert effort facilitated by the Select Committee in a way that was never covered in the media or made public in any other way until the amended bill was revealed for its Second Reading. SUFW was formed when some women became concerned about what was happening and some belated counter submissions were made. But how can good law be made without engaging stakeholders from interested parties on all sides?

            No debate, trying to close down public meetings and agitating to get paid adverstising taken down are anti-democratic approaches that also attack our civil society ecosystem more generally and breed cyncism and disconnection across the whole sphere of political life. If a movement relies on cancellation of the opposition based on claims of hatred and harm those arguments do tend to stop working when they are revealed to be clearly untrue.

            • weka 6.1.1.1.4.1

              This.

              And even if the Bill goes through with self-ID, it's not like women are going to suddenly disappear or go, oh, that's alright then. Self-ID isn't just this one amendment, it's a broad social change tied into gender over sex that is being ushered in without due process. Most of NZ either doesn't know this is going on, or doesn't have the whole picture because of No Debate.

              I agree that it's anti-democratic. Imo with rising fascism in the west, it's dangerous for the left to be operating this way.

        • left for dead 6.1.1.2

          @ Ad ..passive aggresive from you,wonders never cease,the women alone post was very good bar that particular poster,but freedom of speech.

                  Just a wee note, Went looking for the word Mysogynyist in my Oxford illustrated (1975) had too add myself.
          

          P.S. why have we not got spell check.I know most aren't dyslexic,but leaves the likes of me out of debate as comments seem jilted.

    • TeWhareWhero 6.2

      I didn't know she'd been away let alone been bullied. There's a lot of that about. I haven't commented here in a while either and it was seeing the utterly shameful way a TS stalwart was treated by some leftist men on Twitter that reignited my interest.

      Debate is good. Trenchant is good, and concise is essential in this era of short attention spans and debate by sound bite. I fail miserably in respect of the latter – I'm on the way too loooong end of the long form ––short form spectrum. Sigh.

      • Rosemary McDonald 6.2.1

        Trenchant is good, and concise is essential in this era of short attention spans and debate by sound bite

        This.

        How the hell are we supposed to properly discuss all aspects of an issue when most today seem incapable of extending that attention span?

        Offering up catchy slogans does not constitute an exchange of ideas.

        • Shanreagh 6.2.1.1

          True and agree Rosemary.

          One of the things I love about TS is that we do have people who do want a longer read that is not full of slogans or soundbites. To have these thoughtful pieces we need people who write longer pieces/posts.

          So neither 'concise' nor 'trenchant' is necessarily a plus in my view. Trenchant views by their very nature are better with some explanation otherwise they appear untethered and being untethered just float off into the ether. With explanation they may be something you would agree with.

      • Shanreagh 6.2.2

        TeWhareWhero your longer pieces are valuable.

        There are others who can specialise in the sound bite for the attention span deprived.

        Please keep the longer pieces coming.smiley

      • Anne 6.2.3

        I didn't know she'd been away let alone been bullied.

        I recall Stephanie Rodgers as an author and commenter here some 5 or more years ago. Sometimes I agreed with her synopsis, sometimes I didn't.

        As for the bullying accusation… it is possible she was, but bullying in this type of forum can sometimes be strong disagreement which has been misconstrued as bullying.

        My recollection of Stephanie is that she could give as good as she got.

  6. Stephen D 7

    https://www.theguardian.com/world/2016/jul/07/great-tide-is-britain-equipped-cope-glbal-warming?utm_term=d7616045ced4fe16950e2b3537bcd2fa&utm_campaign=TheLongRead&utm_source=esp&utm_medium=Email&CMP=longread_email

    This is about Britain, but there is enough here that can be related to Aotearoa. Especially our preparedness and councils such as Thames allowing waterfront developments.

    ness

  7. greywarshark 8

    .
    Good news:

    https://www.rnz.co.nz/news/national/447106/credible-sighting-of-pod-near-where-baby-orca-stranded

    and the MSD getting an upgrade! Oh it's just to the building and perhaps nicer surroundings for the workers coping with the savage hordes and losers! More toilets needed? /sarc.

    https://www.rnz.co.nz/news/national/447113/building-used-by-msd-needs-upgrades-engineering-survey-finds

  8. greywarshark 9

    Interesting discussion about that tentative film on the mosque shootings and PM Ardern's response, or so i thought.

    https://phuulishfellow.wordpress.com/2021/07/17/weaponising-they-are-us-the-draft-script/
    (Sounds as if a reviewer might dub it 'the daft script'.)

    After seeing the media leakage of sections from the draft script… my mind has changed dramatically. This is bad. This is very bad:
    https://www.newshub.co.nz/home/politics/2021/07/they-are-us-draft-script-winston-peters-david-seymour-simon-bridges-condemn-offensive-hollywood-portrayals.html

    The proposed They Are Us film wouldn’t actually be about New Zealand in any meaningful sense. It’d simply be weaponising New Zealand for American Culture War purposes, and that is seriously offensive.

    One thing to remember about New Zealand politics is that in contrast to the United States (or even Australia), gun-ownership is not a politicised issue. Only very small fringes actually care about the subject (in normal circumstances). Our gun regulations are written with the support of both big parties, and tend to be responsive to events, rather than an ideological football – the last big update of New Zealand firearm legislation was done in the aftermath of the Aramoana shooting three decades ago. And among people who do own guns… they are weapons for shooting animals (recreational or otherwise), or for target-shooting, not for “protecting” yourself.

  9. indiana 10

    https://fb.watch/6P9R5CvoTj/

    Sometimes it nice to have a giggle.

    • arkie 10.1

      The Babylon Bee is a conservative Christian news satire website that publishes satirical articles on topics including religion, politics, current events, and public figures. It has been referred to in the media as a Christian, evangelical, or conservative version of The Onion

      https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Babylon_Bee

      • Anker 10.1.1

        Insteresting Babylon B lampoons christians, democrats, republicans, Trump and IMHO have more than one "lame joke"

    • joe90 10.2

      And despite their best efforts to create a RWNJ version of The Onion, conservatives still have only one lame joke.

      /

    • Peter 1 10.3

      Many a true word spoken in jest.

    • Anker 10.4

      Indiana……….funny and it feels true too

      • Muttonbird 10.4.1

        Anker. You do know that indiana is a right wing troll. Indiana would disagree with almost every value you have except, curiously, anti-transgender sentiment.

        It’s no accident that that person posted what they did @ 10. They have been watching the discussion over the last few days did it deliberately to sow division.

        I don't comment much on the GCF v Transgender debate but I do comment on how GCF has simultaneously cosied up to, and been highjacked by right wing politicians and supporters desperate for single issues with which to attack progressive policy.

        • Anker 10.4.1.1

          Ok fair call Muttobird. It does ring a bell about Indiana.

          I don't feel hijacked by the right wing. I do feel very let down by Labour though and to a huge degree they have lost my support.

          As I have said previously I think Tinetti could have shown some leadership and tried to bring both sides together, but she has completely shut gc out.

          But perhaps this is how the right capture the disenfranchised as happened with Brexit. Its something the left wing need to be aware of. For all people criticize Bomber Bradbury, I think he has his finger on this potential for this to happen

          I am aware of Babylon Bee. I was tempted to post one of their satires on this site after Sacha posted some satire written by Stephanie Rodgers the other day. But I paused and wrote a long point of view about what I believe the issues to be from my point of view.

  10. greywarshark 11

    How big business screws NZ. Villa Maria a successful winery is for some reason going belly up for $200 million, approx. owing to banks, the tax dept and sundry creditors not mentioned. Never mind there is always some overseas buyer that will take our resources off our hands.

    Jul.16/21 https://www.rnz.co.nz/news/business/447035/wine-giant-villa-maria-s-owner-owes-212m-to-bankers-report

    Rabobank and ANZ appointed Calibre Partners as receivers of the holding company, FFWL, in May.

    At the time, one of the receivers, Brendon Gibson stressed that Villa Maria's domestic and international business, which had been operating for 60 years, remained in good health…

    The first receivers report, released earlier today, said the company owed its bankers $211.9m…

    "In the lead up to our appointment the [FFWL] and [Villa Maria] came under pressure due to issues with the Group's capital structure," the report said.

    "[FFWL] had been running processes to raise equity and sell some land in Māngere, Auckland that is surplus to its core operating requirements."

    Among the other suitors rumoured to be in the running to take a stake in Villa Maria was the French beverage giant Pernod Ricard, Australian wine company Accolade Wines, and US beverage company Constellation Brands.

    (And in https://opencorporates.com/companies/nz/7765197 an above company is actually registered as FFWL Limited. How open is that – it doesn't even have a recognisable name in words, just a bunch of letters! Why not numbers – no doubt because that would be confusing with communication cellphone numbers. It is a step away from honest representation of an entity, a part of our slide down a greasy track.)

  11. Forget now 12

    Let's not do this in Aotearoa!

    Entirely predictable July 17th escalation from last weekend's stabbings. The police in that clip seem entirely out of patience with everyone – apparently they had some tear gas thrown back at them. Dozens arrested and; knives, stungun & pepperspray, littering the ground behind the dispersed.

    https://abc7.com/wi-spa-protest-lapd-alert-wilshire/10894299/

    It strikes me, in the context of the ongoing Incitement of Discrimination discussion, that this is a good example of behavior that should be captured by those law changes. If cubangel; premeditatedly went, as a conservative Christian, to a known trans-friendly women's spa (unless maybe as a clueless tourist) and preformed outrage for her social media platform at the presence of trans women on a day when no trans women were booked in; then that seems pretty clear incitement to discrimination to me. She surely bears some culpability for the ensuing stabbings, intimidation, and other violence? Though all alleged and probably under investigation, though no charges seem to have been made in regards to the other week that I have yet seen.

    https://slate.com/human-interest/2021/07/wi-spa-la-transphobic-protest.html

    • weka 12.1

      Thanks for putting your thoughts on this clearly Fn 👍 I disagree about culpability there or likelihood of it being a hoax, but am glad we have common ground on avoiding the creation of violent politics in NZ, important for trans ppl who are already at risk in public spaces and women who are becoming more at risk.

      • Forget now 12.1.1

        I am still having some quoting problems on mobile, Weka – but at least I have worked out how to link again (that may be due to my not having cleared enough kid videos space to update Android as it just reminded me to). There are definitely more buttons in the comment frame than there used to be. Learning curve.

        But; cubangel, should be cubanangel – typo. It's the USA, so the worst that is likely to happen to her is getting sued by Wi Spa for loss of earnings and reputational damage.

        Personally, I think no one has any business being in a shared spa during a raging pandemic in LA. Even if vaccinated themselves.

      • Anker 12.1.2

        Well said Weka.

        I am concerned about things esculating too. Emotions are running very high.

        I am not a violent type at all, and use to joke with my friends during the Spring box tour protests that I was a bit of a coward and would protest at the back.

        I don't know who stabbed who, which protesters and I don't want to get into was it a hoax wasn' it or who stabbbed who. Whoever did the stabbing is responsible for doing the stabbing though. And I say that with no idea of whether it was the trans or the gender critical
        But if the spa lets trans women into the women’s area, then in my mind whether its a hoax isn’t that relevant. I posted another article where a spa in Calafornia had a similar incident and this was reported by the spa itself.
        Women protestors in the UK visited the Hampstead mens only pool, some with beards on, in protest about gender self id. It was obviously a “hoax”. But interestingly enough the men at the mens only pool were really pissed about the women being there and called the police

        As I said in another thread, I wished Labour and Tinetti had have shown some leadership and tried to bring parties together. Just siding with one group as what happened during the tour, only makes things worse.

        • Forget now 12.1.2.1

          In case anyone is less incurious than Anker about who (allegedly) was stabbed by whom on July 3rd:

          A right-wing protestor drew a gun on a person recording the event and told him it was “something to shoot you with.” A videographer wearing a vest marked “PRESS” was struck from behind by a right wing protester with a metal pipe. Another anti-trans protester stabbed two people: a pro-trans counter protester who was reportedly hospitalized by the wound, and a fellow anti-trans protesters while she was attempting to help him off the ground. The LAPD quickly declared the protest and counter-protest unlawful assemblies and dispersed them.

          https://www.losangelesblade.com/2021/07/07/alleged-trans-incident-at-upscale-la-spa-may-have-been-staged

          As for the spa allowing trans women entry – yes that is their policy, in accordance with the laws of California. If cubanangel and her allies had a problem with that, they would have been better advised to target the lawmakers rather than try to harass a private business into breaking that law.

          Calls to defend “female spaces” and “women’s shelters” have become rallying cries of anti-trans groups, who have falsely suggested that trans-inclusive policies endanger cis women. California has for years had laws in place that allow trans people to use facilities that match their gender…

          “Like many other metropolitan areas, Los Angeles contains a transgender population, some of whom enjoy visiting a spa,” Wi Spa had said in a statement to Los Angeles Magazine in late June, noting that California law bars businesses from discriminating against trans people. “Wi Spa strives to meet the needs of all its customers.”

          https://www.theguardian.com/society/2021/jul/18/dozens-arrested-in-los-angeles-as-anti-trans-protest-outside-spa-turns-violent

          • Anker 12.1.2.1.1

            Oh no that is truly shocking.

            I utterly condemn that.

            I genuinely didn’t know who did the stabbing and try not to get into they did it too bit

            i am sorry

            • Forget now 12.1.2.1.1.1

              Yeah, I was a bit surprised when you said this the other day Anker:

              You may not have heard about the Wi Spa incident in California where a naked male who identified as a women was in a spa with women and gilrs.

              https://thestandard.org.nz/the-births-deaths-marriagesrr-and-relationships-registration-bill/#comment-1802987

              Which was on the 16th of July – more than a week after the July 3rd violence (that's a fortnight ago now). The stabbing of his own ally as she came to help him does stick in the mind! I assumed that you were referring to the original June 24th instagram by cubanangel, and were not aware of the later developments. I think you said as much somewhere later in the thread. But by that date the story was much more about the violence and the ticking clock countdown to July 17th (that was reported here today with NZ time). At least on more international fora that I also comment on (under different pseudonyms).

              I probably wouldn't have been talking about it so much here these last couple of days except for rumours that protrans protests were getting subjected to violence in NZ, and people might have to think about defending themselves. Which seems a huge mistake to me! Shields are also weapons, and protests do get tense. The source for the rumour seems to be this single slap – which no one condones, but is a fair way from the street warfare outside Wi Spa in LA. I did like this statement from SUFW spokeswomen too:

              Johnson, whose group has repeatedly been criticised for insulting the mana of transgender people, was “shocked” to hear of the alleged incident. “We are a non-violent organisation, and we’re really staunch in that.

              “We are calling for respectful, considered public dialogue. This is the last thing we want. We don’t know the validity of that [slapping] claim … but I absolutely condemn physical violence and abuse,”

              https://www.stuff.co.nz/dominion-post/wellington/125772143/speak-up-for-women-group-shocked-by-reported-slapping-of-protrans-rights-rally-organiser

              • Anker

                I am not sure why you were surprized I brought up the Wi Spa. I remain of the view that it could of been a hoax or maybe it was n’t a hoax.

                I also posted an article where the Century Spa in Calafornia, the business itself reported that very thing happened in the spa i.e. naked man who identified as a women walking around naked with his penis out.
                It is uncommon for protesters to use set ups to get their point across. I would like to read what the women who recorded the video at the WI Spa says. It may have been a set up to get the point across and the reality is that trans women do appear to be able to access the women only area of the spa. If that is the case, I don’t agree with it.

                So I don't know how this problem will get ressolved, but I don't condone violence, I never have and I never will. It appears SUFW don't either.

                This issues for me are that women's human rights are protected in the human rights act. This is for women only spaces in public change rooms etc, womens schools, refuges, prisons and sport. I am adamant I don't want those rights eroded and many women feel the same way (I know some women don't as well). I hear very little from the christian right in the country on this issue. This defence of biological womens rights is coming from women on the left.

                I also feel really pissed off about the dehumanizing changes to how women are described e.g people who menstuate, birhting units and chest feeders. I hear left wing women starting to say "well of course I support trans rights, but the bridge too far was starting to refer to chest feeders. This woman has laboured to give birth to four children and breast fed them.

                Why is it proponants of gender ideology want to change how biological women are described?

                I accept that some people feel/want to identify as member of the opposite sex to what they were born. They are entitled to do that. I don't want to prevent anyone from living their life in the way they want too. But I first started to question what the hell was going on, when I was hearing about women being told if they didn't concur with the idea that trans women were real women then they were trans phobic if they didn’t.. Never in my life has anyone required me to accept their world view and if not I was considered a bigot. I don't think it is reasonable to do this. Its a bit like the close friend I have who is a practicing catholic. I am an athiest btw. This catholic friend of mine has a strong religious faith. It is something internal to them. Its not material and it can't be measured. And although I have no belief in god as such, I completely respect their right to hold their faith. BUT if they started saying I should agree with the mantra God is real and really exists, I would have a big problem with that. And if they started smearing me and calling me a bigot because I wouldn't agree with them, that isn't right. And if they started changing the language on me e.g. rather than calling me a women they started refering to me as god's creasture or something like that, I would reject that. And likely I would begin to feel they were imposing something on me and wern't respecting my boundaries.

              • weka

                I probably wouldn't have been talking about it so much here these last couple of days except for rumours that protrans protests were getting subjected to violence in NZ, and people might have to think about defending themselves.

                has there been more than that one incidence in Wellington?

                who is talking about defending themselves?

                • Forget now

                  This is difficult to link to Weka. Because I am either paraphrasing confidences, or reporting rumors. So indulge me a little here, and I'll avoid such poorly founded speculation on other comments. You got to admit that I got it right predicting WiSpa protests and counterprotests in LA on July the 17th – this is informed by similar sources.

                  Firstly, it doesn't matter what the facts may actually be, people will act on what they believe the facts to be. So, there is a certain portion of the trans community who seem to be spoiling for a fight. To be fair, it is not just the Wellington slap at the SUFW, violence against trans women in particular has been spiking a bit this past month.

                  The Dunedin SUFW meeting and protests are set for Saturday the 24th. I wasn't actually intending to attend myself, but now I am starting to think I should go, to keep an eye on the young ones and make sure they don't decide that the best defense is a good offense.

                  There is also a rumor about trans men starting to aggressively use women's spaces. So any bearded jeans wearing individuals that you might encounter there might turn out to be a "Bull Dyke on steroids" (say that to their faces when you meet them and I am sure they will help correct your language usage in their own peculiar ways). Though; that's a community I have only the most tangential relationship with, and is hopefully humour for which I am not the target audience.

                  https://www.dunedin.govt.nz/news-and-events/news/july-2021/new-venue-for-speak-up-for-women-meeting

              • Anker

                https://gothamist.com/news/spa-castle-allegedly-barred-transgender-man-from-locker-rooms-nude-areas

                So Wi spa aside this stuff is happening in the States, where male bodied individuals feel entitled to be around women and girls. The spa doing their best to manage this situation.

                Note to anyone reading this. I would be grateful if male bodied humans did not enter my women only spaces such as toilets, change rooms spas. I would be grateful if you would respect this please.

                • Forget now

                  Anker, NZ Trans women already are legally allowed in public spaces designed for the use of women. They can't just walk into any woman's home and do as they please without permission. But then, nor can cis-women.

                  The law states that "an employee should be able to use facilities that match their gender identity, for example: trans women should be able to use a women's toilet, and trans men should be able to use a men's toilet".

                  "While a unisex toilet is a positive way to ensure facilities are inclusive (and may be more comfortable for a trans person early in their transition), a trans employee should not be excluded from using the appropriate single sex toilet."

                  https://i.stuff.co.nz/national/79760678/are-new-zealand-bathrooms-doing-enough-to-accommodate-transgender-people

                  The piece is from 2016 – a few years ago now. But I haven't heard that the law has changed since. First thing that popped up on Google, rather than any reason for this particular article.

                  • Sabine

                    maybe just maybe, the issue is not Transwomen in women spaces – who generally don't expose themselves to women and kids, but men who identify as such to gain access to spaces that are single sex spaces.

                    Maybe the issue is that violent male who have a record for raping and killing females get to transition to female with all that it entails.

                    this one: https://www.nzherald.co.nz/world/australian-serial-killer-reginald-arthurells-new-life-as-regina-allegedly-made-threats-against-victims-family/SPAN2DL6QEWHEYOQJNV2QTM6EA/

                    or this women

                    https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2018/oct/11/transgender-prisoner-who-sexually-assaulted-inmates-jailed-for-life

                    this women

                    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jessica_Yaniv

                    just to name a few.

                    Most transgender women are probably horrified by these 'women' themselves. Personally i would see legislation passed that while these individuals have their right to transition, they should not be given the right to access single female spaces as they are neither safe for bio women nor transwomen.

                    And above all we must also at some stage admit the damage that gendered violence does to women – again, All women. But i guess that will be for a different century, as 'Not all men' is still an issue, despite NOT All men being rapists and sexual abusers, but MOST rapists and sexual abusers are men, and some of these men present as women. And women now get to be fearful of men and women.

                  • Anker

                    "I'm trans, but the purpose of bathing there is that I'm deciding to be female, but really that shouldn't be any of your fucking concern," Acosta told Gothamist on Monday.

                    This is Acosta who wanted to use the women's spa in New York.

                    Read the article. He was determind to be able to be in the change room and naked areas. F….entitled. No thought that others might not want him the there. He might be deciding to be a female but the majority of women would never be so entitled.

                    • McFlock

                      [headdesk]

                      Acosta is a transgender man, and was assigned female at birth. His legal ID lists female.

                      also:

                      On Sunday, Acosta was hoping to avoid confusion. "Let me get the pink key so I can be with people who have the same body as I do," he recalled thinking.

                      So by your rules he shouldn't be allowed to use the men's, but because people love speculating about what is in other people's pants he couldn’t use the nude areas you think he should be using.

                    • Drowsy M. Kram

                      On Sunday, Acosta was hoping to avoid confusion. "Let me get the pink key so I can be with people who have the same body as I do," he recalled thinking. "So I asked them to give me a pink key, and that's when it started rolling."

                      Niv Acosta (the person at the centre of the 2016 article that Anker linked to @2:02 pm – and yes, I did read the article) has a Wikipedia page that indicates they were born female (in 1988), and that they began to identify as a (trans) man in 2009. [McFlock beat me to it.]

                      Acosta made that choice as a young adult in their 20s – all good. I personally have some concerns about the increasing number of teenage (or younger) females who want to change gender, and how society is responding to, and maybe even fostering this trend, but I've no idea how to curtail it, or even if it should be curtailed.

                    • McFlock

                      Had a big think.

                      edit: dammit, hit the wrong reply tab.

                      Yes, I get where you are coming from (to the extent that's realistically possible for someone who didn't experience it). And I'm sorry that was done to you.

                      I don't get how self-id will makes crimes like that more likely, especially when the issue is more complex than "men" and "women", as your confusion over Acosta indicates.

                  • Anker

                    As you know Forget Now I absolutely don't condone violence.

                    Maybe people should have done a better job about consulting women about who they do and don't want in their bathrooms. And then listened to them. That would save the discomfort all round. I do know how this trans women feels. I have posted a number of times on this site that I was attacked by a masked man in a change room who attempted to rape me. I got away with only a punch to the face. Now I don't trust any biological males in change rooms. And for years I did everything I could to avoid public toilets and change rooms, unless accommpanied. I still will check empty cubicles when I do use public toilets. I avoid talking and thinking about this attack. I thought the mask man was going to kill me when I first saw him. But on this site no compassion for my position about biological men and change rooms.

                    I didn't know about the toilet rules for work places. For me that is just another example of how they don't care enough about womens private spaces to ask us whether we are o.k. with it.

                    • Anker

                      Ok McFlock and Drowsy my mistake.

                      Perhaps you will understand where I am coming from with this stuff when you read my comment above about the attack I experienced in a change room. There is also a women on the women's day post who had to have a masectomy due to breast cancer and is saying surely she dosne't have to have biological males in her change room.

                      But I doubt it. Where is the compassion for women and girls?

                    • Anker

                      actually I eat my words. Good on Acosta. He did the right thing. As far as I am concerned he (with his female body) is welcome in to the pink key.

                      So for those who think I am trans phobic, that isn’t what this is about for me. Its about biology and trust. Yes and making the decision that you identify as a member of the opposite sex in your early 20’s sounds about right. Brain is nearer full development. I am glad none of the decisions i made in my teens were of significant consequences or irreversable

                      God this stuff is confusing trans men/women

                    • Anker

                      Thanks McFlock. Iam not sure if you will get this due to the reply button!

                      I have got quite a lot. going on at the moment, so want be on the Standard too much.

                      I have been thinking it would be good to call a truce of all the your side were terrible, no your side were worse. And somewhat more idealistically than I usually am wondered about the possibility on the Standard of coming up with some common ground between trans and gender critical. And maybe some rules of engagement such as agree to disagree.

                      I hate reading about the visciousnes of the fighting and it bothered me a great deal about the fighting.

                      I think at the heart of the matter is gender ideology versus biological materialism, but I could be wrong.

                      Anyway if you get this message and you think its worth having a go let me know. Even if there is very little overlap it could be a start.

                    • McFlock

                      It seems to me that a lot of the commenters on the topic here at TS have a lot of common values, but on this issue we disagree on some particular things that are fundamental to the discussion. As in, I think it's even more basic than the definition arguments. But those fundamental differences cascade into different definitions, frames, and desired resolutions.

                      It's like two physicists planning the first orbital space station, but they disagree on the value of the gravitational constant. A little tweak there makes them disagree on everything from the size of launch vehicles to the shape of the orbit, even the feasibility of the entire project.

                      But because this particular issue also has some pretty important effects on rights and people's safety, arguments get heated.

                      Damned if I can see any resolution to it, though.

                    • Incognito []

                      Damned if I can see any resolution to it, though.

                      Being physicists, they would take the mean ± 6 standard deviations.

                      All flippancy aside, they repeat and refine their measurements until everybody is satisfied.

  12. McFlock 13

    Now there's a depressing thought. The possibility of it being a completely invented incident.

  13. McFlock 14

    On a separate note, a commenter above mentions having some info saved but that it's swamped amongst all the other items they've saved.

    Several others over the years have mentioned bookmarking or archiving large amounts of material.

    What tools do people use to keep track of their information and collate the sources?

    Does anyone use a separate data management tool or archiving/collation database? Or is everything just saved to a directory or bookmarks toolbar?

    Basically, does anyone use a tool like a library catalogue: a wee form that has things like subject category, keywords you might search for in the future, authors, publications, web links, saved filename, all of that sort of "metadata" about the thing you want to save. Then when you're looking for something about "First labour govt" or "housing", you type that term into the search engine and it tells you exactly what items cover that subject.

  14. Macro 15

    SmartSelect_20210717-205146_Twitter

    [image resized to get the full bull]

  15. Ed1 16

    I have just listened to most of the following:

    https://www.rnz.co.nz/national/programmes/smart_talk/audio/2018802944/a-wanaka-festival-of-colour-panel-discussion-about-taxes-good-bad-and-inevitable

    It was recorded last April, and may have been commented on at that time, but cannot recall hearing it then.

    For some of the discussion, there was talk of whether we should have a capital gains tax. My understanding is that we do, but we have over the years exempted a lot of those gains from being taxed.

    For funds like superannuation schemes (including Kiwisaver), and insurance companies and banks, any investments are clearly being made to make profits, and they are automatically taxable – and that will include profits and losses on the sale of shares, fixed interest securities, and property. So all those hard working New Zealanders who do not have enough money to buy an investment property, but have a Kiwisaver account, you are paying tax on capital gains made on your investments. (Kiwisaver providers seldom offer funds that invest in property – they could not guarantee that they could sell if enough people wanted to transfer out of property; but if they did, yes profits on sale of a property would be taxable.)

    A company that sells a property that they operate from and moves to another will pay tax on any capital gains on the sale of the first property.

    So why do people who own a rental property not pay tax on the sale of that property?

    Why do we pretend that we can have an exemption from tax on capital gains for a rental property and everyone thinks that means we do not have tax on capital gains?

    Is this just jargon designed to confuse?

    I believe it should be fairly easy to say that a person that owns more than two properties should be able to designate perhaps two as being for personal use, but any more should be regarded as an investment property on which tax on capital gains would be payable – and if the owner wants to change the designation of which property is 'personal use', then that change should generate in some way a liability for capital gains as at that date. Are we being conned by the professional landlords to a fiction that we do not have capital gains tax in New Zealand already?

  16. McFlock 17

    The centralised water plan seems to be hitting a bit of resistance – not for any major philosophical reason, just offering peppercorn payment to councils to buy the infrastructure.

    • SPC 17.1

      The plan seems to be for the government to have assets to borrow against to fund investment in water infrastructure. With the assets no increase in net public debt etc.

      • McFlock 17.1.1

        Yeah, I suspect the reason the councils are irked is because they've been doing a similar booking thing.

        So if they tranfer, say, a billion dollars worth of water system over to the central govt and only get ten million for it, their assets take a major hit.

        • SPC 17.1.1.1

          With councils – they have debt caps, so they create at arms length entities that borrow against the assets.

  17. Ad 18

    Rest In Peace Philip Sherry.

    You were our Sam The Eagle of the 1970s and 1980s.

  18. tracey 19

    Male silence is acquiescence. Would be great for all men to show they’re genuinely #notallmen

    A chance for liberal progressive men to really lead

    https://scoop.upworthy.com/only-girl-in-tech-class-exposes-male-classmates-joking-about-rape-consent?fbclid=IwAR30IUkvbDECrF0vj7pzTiBUT3QV9PoBsFu4w5SMay5MYiJgD8ZU-diCg5k

    • Incognito 19.1

      Utter nonsense.

      The absence of evidence is not evidence of absence.

    • Sabine 19.2

      Well that girl needs to quickly identify as Binary or something and thus all the bro's will be quick to save her right to a save place somewhere. But if she is 'just' a gender conform women, then she is shit out of luck, cause as Jessica Valenti says

      "When we say 'yes all men' this is what we mean," wrote feminist author and columnist Jessica Valenti, sharing the video on Twitter. "Because it's not just about the man who harasses or assaults women, and it's not just about the guy who jokes about it. It's about the men who laugh, and the men who say nothing. It's true that only a small percentage of men abuse women – but that number doesn't mean shit if the majority of men enable it."

      and here is my daily mantra of

      Not all men are rapists, but most rapists are men.

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