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Open mike 19/09/2020

Written By: - Date published: 6:00 am, September 19th, 2020 - 104 comments
Categories: open mike - Tags:

Open mike is your post.

For announcements, general discussion, whatever you choose.

The usual rules of good behaviour apply (see the Policy).

Step up to the mike …

104 comments on “Open mike 19/09/2020 ”

  1. Ad 1

    Women's Suffrage Day breakfast.

    Get up people.

  2. ScottGN 2

    Murmurings on Twitter that Nats are down to 26%. And Newshub have polled Auckland Central.

  3. ScottGN 3

    Great quip from Grant Robertson, “their tax cuts are less about stimulating the economy and more about stimulating their dire polling…”

    Good to see the PM making a push into Wairarapa for McAnulty too.

    • Treetop 3.1

      I expected Natonal to be doing better in the polls. NZF has not improved. Act seems to be making headway. The Greens are hanging in there. Labour is secure and the party of trust and stamina.

    • Grafton Gully 3.2

      Robertson's cynical dig at voters who support a democracy that pays his salary. I will be taking his "great quip" and the tax cuts into account when I decide who gets my vote.

  4. Paapapakaratua 4

    There is a piece at propublica.com about US postal workers catching Covid-19 in large numbers, raising problems with postal voting in the election.

  5. Dennis Frank 5

    Out on the fringe, shit's flying all over the place: https://thespinoff.co.nz/politics/18-09-2020/candidates-defect-in-all-directions-in-ugly-minor-party-battle/

    Regenerative farmer Michael Kay, who’ll be standing under the Attica banner in Ōtaki, said control from the executives of the Outdoors Party and wider disorganisation had made it impossible for the party to get movement on policy development.

    “We wanted to change it so that we could have policy subcommittees so there was structure and it wasn’t like herding cats. [But] every time we’d go to do that, they’d say ‘oh don’t be authoritarian’.” He said when he suggested the idea of having something akin to party whips, the reaction from the party was one of horror.

    “I realised there was no experience or knowledge of being able to settle the fact that this is how parliament works. If you don’t know what standing orders are or don’t know these processes, what are you going to do when you get there?”

    Formal procedures of democracy aren't part of normal lifestyles. Restless natives can't be expected to be disciplined into conformity. On the fringe, random is good.

    There’s an increasing amount of common ideological ground between those parties and others outside of parliament like the New Conservatives and the One Party, particularly around a generalised sense of ordinary people losing control over their lives. Flutey said he’s seen debates on the fringes in which “they largely agree with everything they have to say.”

    I largely agree with everything I have to say too, so I get where they're coming from. However I ain't ordinary, and have a comfortable degree of control over my life, so I'm not their target market.

    For Brown and many others in this area of politics, the upcoming election has an almost epochal, last-chance feel to it that necessitates hard political choices.

    Last chance to decide which bunch of nutters to go with! Choose fast! On the shelf at Fringe Supermart we have Out There, Off the Wall, Zany, Fruitcakes United, plus there's Nutters Unlimited, Nutball Supreme and one or two others…

    Mike Iles, standing for Attica in Mana, chipped in with his frustration about how the internal processes of the Outdoors Party worked. “There was no control. You’d have a meeting and one person would talk for half an hour, and then the meeting would be over so you wouldn’t achieve anything.”

    Out of control is good. That way narcissists can dominate by uttering slogans forever, which is how aspiring leaders run the show, but it does rather presume narcissists in the audience won't compete, eh? Good luck with that.

    There was particular frustration from the pair over the issue of writing policy, which never went anywhere when presented to the leadership, nor was there transparency from the leadership about the state of the organisation.

    Sounds like an infestation of experienced politicos – refugees from the Nat/Lab duopoly. Tyros would struggle to combat their proven control techniques. Closet stalinism works even better than closet fascism. "What agreements? What documents? They never existed. You're hallucinating."

  6. Paapapakaratua 6

    Dennis, is Covid-19 "fringe"?

  7. Dennis Frank 7

    Building consensus amongst splitters seems an impossible task. An heroic endeavour, requiring a hero.

    A rival meeting aiming to build minor party consensus has been put together by Brad Flutey, a former Outdoors Party political strategist and candidate, who’ll now be standing for Social Credit. Flutey said it was organised in direct competition to Advance NZ, necessitated partly because of a lack of trust in Te Kahika.

    Guru aversion. A sensible stance in politics.

    The Outdoors Party sprang out of recreational hunting and fishing groups, before moving onto more hot-button policy issues like opposition to 5G technology, 1080, vaccines and Covid-19 restrictions. They define themselves as being in favour of people power and localised decision making.

    The last two points they do share with the Greens – but the Greens, being cool, favour cool-button policy issues. Hot-heads hitting on hot-buttons would have to cool down to build consensus with them.

    In response to their experience of the Outdoors Party, Kay and Iles intend to run the Attica Project as a largely leaderless movement. Kay said he wasn’t swayed by Advance NZ’s approach, likening their recent anti-lockdown protests to “howling at the moon”.

    https://thespinoff.co.nz/politics/18-09-2020/candidates-defect-in-all-directions-in-ugly-minor-party-battle/

    Readers will be wondering how effective howling at the moon actually is. Humans are predators & so are wolves, but biological determinism may only work on the fringe.

    chorus howls involve members of a pack singing in unison at multiple pitches. Together, the chorus may include up to 12 related harmonies. Group howling can protect packs since the combination of harmonies tricks listeners into thinking there are more wolves present. Or sometimes, they'll howl just for the fun of it.

    https://animals.howstuffworks.com/mammals/wolves-howling-at-moon.htm

    So yeah, quite similar to minor party psychodynamics, when you think about it…

  8. Pat 8

    2 weeks and you can vote

  9. PsyclingLeft.Always 9

    "citizenship-for-sale"

    Wow this doesnt seem dodgy at all…..

    "People from mainland China make up the bulk of those who have purchased honorary citizenship, at the average price of around $US130,000, entitling them to a Vanuatu passport."

    And….

    "The leader of the country's parliamentary opposition, Ralph Regenvanu said he was concerned that international criminals and people stripped of citizenship in other countries for nefarious activities could more easily become citizens of Vanuatu."

    That Smile on Ronald Warsal's dial…

    https://www.rnz.co.nz/international/pacific-news/426414/vanuatu-warned-about-citizenship-sale-flaw

    • AB 9.1

      You mean they don't even need to pick up a one-year postgraduate Diploma in something or other on the way through? Radical.

  10. Fireblade 10

    Newshub Poll

    • Tricledrown 10.1

      The Greens are in trouble no one wants to make the sacrifices needed to stop climate catastrophe

      • AB 10.1.1

        Don't be mean. They want post-Covid holidays in Umbria and a new VW e-Golf (amazingly affordable at $61,990 and looks nice in blue) because they want to do the right thing. And they would, if only the Greens were a 'real environmental Party'.

      • Grafton Gully 10.1.2

        And Chloe's expensive leather sofa with the skin of a vegetarian animal and unacknowledged animal rights.

        https://www.stuff.co.nz/life-style/homed/renting/122410717/the-most-expensive-thing-green-mp-chle-swarbrick-owns-is-her-couch

        • In Vino 10.1.2.1

          Reading comprehension fail? Chloe did not say it was expensive in absolute terms – she said it was the most expensive thing she owns. It cost bugger-all, probably, but if she does not own a car or house, maybe it cost more than anything else she owns.

          Judging by your attitude, Grafton Gully, it probably cost less than your dinner-dress suit.

          • Sabine 10.1.2.1.1

            just shy of 3 grand as per the article linked.

            a good investment, sofas generally last a long time and thus its good money spend, however, i know no one who has spend 3 grand on a sofa. But its a nice looking sofa and why not, she earns somewhere around 200.000NZD per annum so its not as if she could not afford it.

            No reason to be so upset.

            The thing that had me chuckle was her tweet about the 'wildcard' race between the three contenders in Auckland Central.

            • sumsuch 10.1.2.1.1.1

              I'm not even being negative about this species extincting with a full bank of footnotes.

        • Incognito 10.1.2.2

          Hay bales are a fire risk and create such a mess on the floor.

    • Pat 10.2

      "For the new poll, Reid Research interviewed 532 people in the Auckland Central electorate via landline, mobile, online and on the street in the first and second weeks of September. The results were weighted to match the electorate's demographics. The margin of error is 4.2 percent."

      "With 20.7 percent of voters still undecided, there's only a slim chance Mellow can pull off an upset and keep the seat for National"

      • Graeme 10.3.1

        Right o, so extrapolate this out over the country and what does it mean for current National list MPs. Wouldn't they be close to having an overhang from too many 'safe' electorates and no MPs coming in off their list.

        Will make for an interesting dynamic within the National caucus.

      • swordfish 10.3.2

        .
        If we assumed, for argument's sake, that the Poll was both accurate & reflected the swing across the Country as a whole (a somewhat dodgy assumption but, for the love of Christ, humour me just this once !) … then:

        2017 ………. 2020

        Lab 36.9 ….. 55.3

        Nat 44.4 ….. 28.3

        NZF 7.2 …….. 4.9

        Green 6.3 …. 4.5

        ACT 0.5 ……… 3.3

        … Which I happen to find quite amusing.
        .

        • Bearded Git 10.3.2.1

          That poll was taken when the Greens were being pounded over the (minor issue-turns out to be a grant) green school. Their policy releases since have been strong so 5 per cent is very much on the cards, especially if Labour tactical voters realise they will need the Greens in 2020.

        • JohnSelway 10.3.2.2

          I'd rather have more ACT than more National simply because ACT aren't conservatives. ACT may have silly economic ideas but at least they support personal freedoms like euthanasia, drug policy and free speech etc.

        • Treetop 10.3.2.3

          I like your assumption.

  11. joe90 11

    bugger

    • Barfly 11.1

      Double bugger angry

    • joe90 11.2

      The mentions of Cotton and Cruz weren't out of the blue.

      https://www.npr.org/2020/09/09/911194201/trump-adds-ted-cruz-tom-cotton-to-list-of-potential-scotus-picks

      • RedBaronCV 11.2.1

        Candidates in the tighter senate races (five thirty eight suggests there are quite a few) are now caught in a political hard place? Maybe not as keen as Mitch.

        • Macro 11.2.1.1

          Hopefully they are true to their word:

          Senator Susan Collins, Lisa Murkowski, and – in 2018 when he was chairman of the Senate Judiciary Committee – Chuck Grassley, however, have previouslyannounced that they were opposed to confirming a new Supreme Court justice in 2020. “Fair is fair,” Murkowski said. Mitt Romney is also reportedlycommitted to not confirming a Supreme Court nominee until after Inauguration Day 2021.

          https://whatthefuckjusthappenedtoday.com/

          • Draco T Bastard 11.2.1.1.1

            Hopefully. I'm pretty sure that some Republicans will vote against the appointment but I'm also sure that some democrats will vote for.

            So, IMO, chances are that we'll see Trumps appointment in place before the election.

            • Macro 11.2.1.1.1.1

              So, IMO, chances are that we'll see Trumps appointment in place before the election.

              I'm hoping that the Dems will not take this lying down and a great rallying cry here on Mother Jones.

              It’s a popular sentiment on the left: Don’t mourn, organize. But with the death of Supreme Court Justice Ruth Bader Ginsburg, that won’t be enough. Ginsburg, a hero of female empowerment and of the Supreme Court, deserves much mourning. But Democrats and progressives can waste no time prepping for the battle royal that lies ahead. After all, it took Senate Majority Leader Mitch McConnell mere minutes after the news of RBG’s passing to declare that the GOP-controlled Senate will vote on whoever Donald Trump sends its way to fill the Supreme Court vacancy—a direct eff-you to the Democrats after McConnell in 2016 refused to consider President Barack Obama’s SCOTUS nominee Merrick Garland with the phony-baloney argument that the Senate should not consider new justices during an election year. So yes, Dems will have to organize, but they must do more: They have to get ready to rumble.

              The win-over-reasonable-Republicans-with-reason strategy is weak sauce. That leaves the Democrats with one other choice: total political warfare. The Senate’s Democratic leader, Chuck Schumer—with the backing of Joe Biden and Nancy Pelosi—needs to threaten massive retaliation. Should McConnell try to ram a Trump nominee through, Schumer ought to vow that the Democrats, if they win back the Senate and Biden is elected president, will demolish the filibuster, which will allow the Senate to proceed to make Washington, DC, a state (two more senators, who are likely to be Democrats!) and that they will move to add two or four more seats to the Supreme Court. (There is nothing in the Constitution that limits the court’s size to the current nine justices.) In other words: They will implement a Republican nightmare (which, as it happens, can be justified on arguments of equity and fairness).

  12. greywarshark 12

    Gordon Campbell on Scoop being slightly sarcastic.

    https://www.scoop.co.nz/stories/HL2009/S00090/on-tourisms-endless-sense-of-grievance.htm

    Sad that a once in a century pandemic should have come along before the government had a clearly thought out plan for rescuing all the firms and saving all the jobs in the tourism sector. Sad that the government now looks like it was making up the criteria for support as it went along. But guess what? To some extent, they were. Possibly because in the modern era, a pandemic had never before caused international travel to evaporate almost overnight.

    Oh dear it's – The End of the Golden Weather (which was the name of a NZ play. I think it had a sad end too.) https://www.nzonscreen.com/title/the-end-of-the-golden-weather-1991

    (By the way there did used-to-be bikini-width beach patrols in NZ.)

    • Draco T Bastard 12.1

      I think the bit about Iran was far more important:

      Iran, China’s new captive

      In effect, Trump has pushed Iran into the arms of China. The result is blood chilling. Reportedly, ordinary Iranians face being turned into the Uighurs of the Middle East:

      The next phase of the 25-year deal between China and Iran will focus on a large-scale roll-out of electronic espionage and warfare capabilities focussed around the port of Chabahar and extending for a nearly 5,000 kilometer (3,000 mile) radius, and the concomitant build-out of mass surveillance and monitoring of the Iranian population, in line with the standard operating procedure across China, senior sources close to the Iranian government told OilPrice.com last week.

      [The plan] dovetail into Beijing’s strategic vision for Iran as a fully-functioning client state of China by the end of the 25-year period. By that time, Iran will be an irreplaceable geographical and geopolitical foundation stone in Beijing’s ‘One Belt, One Road’ project, as well as providing a large pool of young, well-educated, relatively cheap labor for Chinese industry.

      Why do we still have a FTA with China?

  13. Incognito 13

    For our lowest paid workers, they can also often feel pressured into going to work when they shouldn’t. It is estimated around 35 percent of people typically come into work despite being sick.

    Our extension to 10 sick days a year will help to maintain a long term culture of staying home when you are unwell, and doing our bit to keep communities healthy and safe.

    https://d3n8a8pro7vhmx.cloudfront.net/nzlabour/pages/18655/attachments/original/1600459380/FINAL_Workplace_Relations_fact_sheet.pdf

    • Draco T Bastard 13.1

      Continuing to limit sick days will continue to put pressure on low paid workers to go into work when sick. The increase may decrease the prevalence but we're still going to see poor people going into work when they shouldn't.

      • Incognito 13.1.1

        It is the legal minimum requirement for employers.

        • Draco T Bastard 13.1.1.1

          Yes, so if employers so choose they can increase it. Most don't which is why the government is looking at increasing it from 5 days to 10.

          Which means that, for the majority of people, they're still going to be limited and the pressure to go to work sick still there.

          And that's before we get into doctors certificates.

          • Incognito 13.1.1.1.1

            10 instead of 5 days is halving the pressure, IMO.

            What problem do you have with doctor’s certificates?

            • JohnSelway 13.1.1.1.1.1

              Most people don't go to the doc when they are sick however I think if you are off for 3 or more days at a stretch then an employer is justified in asking for a doc note. Not simply because they are suspicious the person is lying and more because you might want to know if your employee is A) OK and B) not going to make anyone else sick by coming in

            • Draco T Bastard 13.1.1.1.1.2

              10 instead of 5 days is halving the pressure, IMO.

              It still leaves them with the question of if they should take the sick leave now or save it for when they're feeling worse. Especially for those of the working poor.

              After all, there's no guarantee that they're going to require less than 10 days in a year.

              What problem do you have with doctor’s certificates?

              Because they're usually a waste of time. Get a cold, take a couple of days off and get stuck with

              1. Having to increase the time that your sick due to not being able to stay home to look after yourself
              2. Get stuck with an unnecessary doctors bill

              As it is if a person gets sick on Thursday, takes Friday off and needs to get a doctors cert.

              Good for privatised doctors I suppose. Boosts their profits. Just no good for the poor who have to pay.

              • Incognito

                If an employee is sick or injured, or cannot attend work because their spouse, partner or dependant is sick or injured, for:

                • less than three days, and an employer asks for proof of sickness or injury, they must ask as soon as possible and pay the employee back for the cost of getting the proof, eg a visit to the doctor.
                • three or more days in a row, even if these three days are not all days the employee would have otherwise worked on (otherwise working day) and the employer asks for proof, then the employee needs to meet the cost.

                https://www.employment.govt.nz/leave-and-holidays/sick-leave/requirement-for-medical-examination/

      • RedBaronCV 13.1.2

        Since we really want people to not pass covid around I wondered about some sort of pooling plus a subsidy if the pool was exceeded annually.

        So if you have 5 employees by 10 days that' s 50 for the company per year. Without interfering with any individual right if people stay home, get covid tests etc then a rebate, subsidy via the IRD kicks in if the pool for the year is exceeded by covid related sick leave. All the usual stuff about medical certificates etc can apply.

        Small firms can be hard hit by extra sick leave – larger firms would cover their covid related stuff themselves pretty much. Don't forget we have virtually no other winter flu cases so a lot of firms are doing well out of it. Also I've known companies in the past who had no formal sick leave policies jjust handed out as needed and loved it as overall sick leave was so much lower.

        Maybe not a perfect idea but there must be some way to sort this

        • McFlock 13.1.2.1

          Yeah, overall sick leave is lower because people are getting less sick? Or maybe because they don't want to look like the one who isn't a "team player"?

          Assuming 5 employees, that's something like 950 workdays a year (not including hols). Down to 900. Not quite as crippling.

          The problem for smaller units and businesses is twofold: a sick day or two can stuff a workload schedule (especially if you need two for safety); and basic "who covers the other person's lunch break" issues.

          • Sabine 13.1.2.1.1

            not sure about your math,

            but a year at 365 day, – 30 days holiday leave, – 10 day sick leave leaves 325 days working if full time.

            950 days divided by 5 would come to 190 work days per person.

            the worst abuse of 'not taking sick leave' was in offices. Well paid office people who don't want to upset upper management or ruin their career path. If they get everyone sick, who cares, at least they show up.

            As for the poor – most of them don't work full time, that is part of them being poor. So if anything, again this rule will only benefit those that are waged and salaried and often times not poor.

            • Barfly 13.1.2.1.1.1

              Have you heard of public holidays?
              Have you heard of weekends?

              • Sabine

                i have not taken these into account – only the guaranteed 4 weeks annual leave and the potential 10 days off.

                True that, and no i have not heard of weekends in a long time as i am self employed and i don't have 'weekends'. I have 'Sunday' off, when i don't work Sundays, and the last holiday i had was the four weeks of lockdown before that i had three days of after christmas las year. Go figure. 🙂 And the last time my partner had a weekend off that he did not have to take 'anual leave for ' was just before lockdown, since then he has been on call 24/7 and he and his workmates are not going to educate his employer about the work laws of this country lest they lose their jobs. Not that anyone here gives a flying fuck about people losing their jobs. 🙂 And another friend and his work mates just took a considerable pay cut in order to protect their jobs and i am sure they are thrilled to know that they will get an extra 5 days sick leave under Labour, if they still have a job.

                But the point that i was making stands, unless you are working full time or on a annual part time contract the rules are written as such that if i don't want to provide paid sick leave there are plenty of ways around, and non of these ways were addressed by Labour.

                But it sure sounds like a nice 'feel good' policy for those that like a good feel good policy that does not apply to the majority of the working public in this country.

                • Draco T Bastard

                  True that, and no i have not heard of weekends in a long time as i am self employed and i don't have 'weekends'.

                  Yes, I've always wondered what would happen if the self-employed had to abide by the same employment rules as everyone else such as paying themselves the minimum wage, minimum holidays etcetera because, from what I've seen, their business wouldn't survive.

                  Which means, interestingly enough, that their business is non-viable.

                  And the last time my partner had a weekend off that he did not have to take 'anual leave for ' was just before lockdown, since then he has been on call 24/7 and he and his workmates are not going to educate his employer about the work laws of this country lest they lose their jobs.

                  Yes, because allowing an employer to break the laws of the nation is such a good idea.

                  But the point that i was making stands, unless you are working full time or on a annual part time contract the rules are written as such that if i don't want to provide paid sick leave there are plenty of ways around, and non of these ways were addressed by Labour.

                  Apparently so as your example of your own business not keeping to the minimums required by law shows.

                  • Sabine

                    Yes, I've always wondered what would happen if the self-employed had to abide by the same employment rules as everyone else such as paying themselves the minimum wage, minimum holidays etcetera because, from what I've seen, their business wouldn't survive.

                    true that, but in saying that, so as long as i can pay myself a wage that is still better then getting fuck all from Winz. And if we had to pay ourselfs all these wages and costs, no small business woud start up and thus don't grow to big businesses. But then the main reason for people like me – women – to have their own little businesses is that the job situation in NZ for women is fucked – last time 4% unemployment for women was in 2008 (by the governments own numbers) so we find a niche and hope to make enough money to pay for our lifes, lest we depend on Winz or the generosity of a partner.
                    And this includes, all cost of running a business, all compliance costs, all supplier bills, acc levy, and so on.

                    And the last time my partner had a weekend off that he did not have to take 'anual leave for ' was just before lockdown, since then he has been on call 24/7 and he and his workmates are not going to educate his employer about the work laws of this country lest they lose their jobs.

                    i keep telling him, but he truly believes that paying the bills is a good thing and besides there are no jobs to which he could just switch over to show it to his boss. Go figure.

                    Apparently so as your example of your own business not keeping to the minimums required by law shows.

                    please show me where exactly i am breaking the law currently and frankly you should if you accuse someone of breaking the law.

                    as in my business, i am now the only person working. I have let go of my staff who was employed for 21 weekly fixed hours with full benefits as entitled to by the law at the beginning of march due to loss of business thanks to covid.

                    Really if you throw out these accusations you better have something to back it up lest you come across as a bit of a wanker.

                    • Draco T Bastard

                      please show me where exactly i am breaking the law

                      I didn't say that you were breaking the law. I said that you weren't keeping to the minimums required by law. You do that legally because the law is broken in not requiring self-employed people to provide themselves with the legal minimums.

                      As I say, a market system can only work if costs are properly accounted for and your example shows that they're not.

                      And if we had to pay ourselfs all these wages and costs, no small business woud start up and thus don't grow to big businesses.

                      Which is probably the reasoning that the government uses to keep the broken law in place that gives small businesses a competitive advantage – despite the fact that small businesses almost never grow into big businesses.

                      I think it would be better if small businesses also covered the full costs of actually providing all those minimums that are considered so important that they're written into law. My solution for encouraging a small business is a UBI.

            • McFlock 13.1.2.1.1.2

              Yeah you're probably right about the math. It's a weekend.

              Part-time workers and casual workers also qualify for paid sick leave, as long as it's >10hrs a week.

              It's aimed at expanding the rights of employees. I think you'll find the wealthier employees are in a position to negotiate additional benefits like time off, flexible schedules, all that. This is merely a minimum requirement for everyone employed for more than ten hours a week.

              • Sabine

                and min of six month on the job 🙂

                • McFlock

                  I suggest that any employer who feels compelled to avoid paying sick leave by structuring their employment agreements so that no employees works for six months is running their business in an incompetent manner and if they don't go bust from that, they'll end up breaking employment law somehow and going bust from that.

                  • Sabine

                    Lol. 🙂

                    Employment agreements? What is this that you speak of? Oh , contracts right, for waged and salaried workers? Right? lol. Sorry McFlock, but you have no idea what goes on in NZ employments, specially on the low to very low end. But bless your cotton socks.

                    No one in this country has gone bust from breaking employment laws 'somehow' see Talley, see various Temp agencies, see various people that illegally employ foreign students etc. They don't go bust, they make good bank, and what ever fine they get is less then what they made.

                    With 200.000 + unemployed (majority of them women for whom no one creates shovel ready jobs or increases the benefits ) with another round of job loses to come, the ones that have one will consider it a blessing and they will not do anything to jeopordize this.

                    All employees (including part-time and casual employees) are entitled to 5 days' sick leave if:

                    • they have six months’ current continuous employment with the same employer, or
                    • they have worked for the employer for six months for:
                      • an average of 10 hours per week, and
                      • at least one hour in every week or 40 hours in every month.

                    Two examples here that i have come across in my time working for others in NZ:

                    • so most seasonal workers are already excluded as most will not have six month with the same employer.
                    • retail, one full time manager, one part timer 4 hours a week, one part timer 6 hours a week, one part timer 5 hours a week.

                    (the two 4 hours and 6 hours are lunch relief, the other is sunday work) only the full time manager will benefit

                    • coffee shop ( a big franchise) barista has a 8 hours a week with the franchise in down town, and another 8 hours with the franchise in up town, these are not the same employer, thus barista will get fuck all.

                    these are just three examples of people who will not benefit legally in current and normal 'working agreements' from this law, due to the current legislation. They already don't get the 5 days.

                    Sorry McFlock, but that is going to be a nice thing for the few remaining people that still have jobs and still dare to complain. The rest is gonna shut up, lemsip up and go to work, as they need the pay, and Winz is not gonna help pay the bills.

                    Never mind all those that already don't work in the 'polite societies economy' but work under the table in order to pay for food and rent, considering that Covid is not enough of a mess for the Labour government actually to do anything of substance for those that have no jobs, no income, and no chance of finding anything soon, or for those that currently would do everything – including giving up pay – in order to keep their jobs.

                    as for breaking employment laws, how many people have died in forestry and the company is still going? how many laws has talley broken? Are they bust?

                    now if Labour would get rid of the giant loopholes and say everyone working is entitled to sick leave irrespective of hours worked or length of employment, and that is then paid for via ACC – similar to maternity leave you would have something, but they did not do that.

                    • greywarshark

                      Thanks for that info and perspective Siobhan – we don't know how lucky we are not to be squeezed by all these problems on low wages and any hours the boss likes to set.

                    • McFlock

                      Oh, piss off with that holier than though crap. You think because you've had shit work nobody else has?

                      There are a fuckload of workers – workers, not managers or bureaucrats – who will appreciate being able to take another paid day if they or a kid are sick. But because they're lucky enough to hold down a job for six months and work ten hours a week there, you don't give a shit about them.

                      Sure, Talley's can afford to piss away money breaking employment law. Does the retail outlet with only a few staff have the same wiggle room in their budget?

                      Were you complaining that the covid grants were giving money to employers who didn't need it? Or were you complaining that the government wasn't doing enough to help businesses?

                    • Sabine

                      There are a fuckload of workers – workers, not managers or bureaucrats – who will appreciate being able to take another paid day if they or a kid are sick. But because they're lucky enough to hold down a job for six months and work ten hours a week there, you don't give a shit about them.

                      dude i don't know how you come to that, all i say is that the law change is meaningless if labour at the same time don't remove the loop holes that allows people / bosses/ hr departments to avoid paying the CURRENT 5 DAY sickness benefit. So keep the accusations away.

                      Sure, Talley's can afford to piss away money breaking employment law. Does the retail outlet with only a few staff have the same wiggle room in their budget?

                      yes, if they employ people so that they don't get over the min hours, they can legally get away with these rules. Say – i need someone full time, but don't want to pay any benefits other then the wage. I c could hire 5 people – Mon – Fri – each working one day – all of them WINZ beneficiaries – and it would be a win win. They all get the one day they can work without loosing money on their benefits and i would have the week covered. Its actually so fucking easy to get around these rules, because they Loopholes are so big.

                      Were you complaining that the covid grants were giving money to employers who didn't need it? Or were you complaining that the government wasn't doing enough to help businesses?

                      Yes, i did. The day it was announced i was here on the standard and called bullshit. I advocated for a full bill holiday – for everyone, inclusive businesses, i advocated for IRD to send a stipend to each household for the duration of the lockdown level that would prevent people from going to work. You can search that. I said very much that this would not help the small businesses as it would not cover the cost of having business closed and it would not cover the bills at home. And you know what, i got called hysteric, whingy and all sorts of other things. So yeah, i knew that that shit would be abused, and i knew it would be abused by the big companies. Everyone in their right mind did.

                      this is what i said to McFlock at the end of my comment:

                      Now if Labour would get rid of the giant loopholes and say everyone working is entitled to sick leave irrespective of hours worked or length of employment, and that is then paid for via ACC – similar to maternity leave you would have something, but they did not do that.

                      This is no more and no less a lolly scramble as the bullshit tax cuts advocated by National.

                      There is one thing that i know as someone who actually has to work for money, if the people in this country have no money , i have no business. So its not in my interest at all to have a poor populace. You might want to keep that in mind when screaming abuse at me. I am not the one that advocates for feel good bull, i advocate for no income taxes for the first 20 grand – cost of housing, i advocate for a serious increase in well fare benefits, i advocate for rental caps and i have done this since the years of John Key.

                      And lastly, i am closer to poverty then i ever will be to riches. And i for one know this.

                    • McFlock

                      Yeah, whatevs.

                      Meanwhile, in the real world, real workers just got a moderate improvement to their conditions.

                      The recession won't last forever, and thanks to the government you're outraged at you might even keep your business.

      • Treetop 13.1.3

        Do you think that there are new groups of people who feel pressured to go into work e.g health workers when they are not well?

        It is not just physical illness which requires time off. I did not realise that a student on a work placement is not covered for wages if they have an accident e.g. student nurse injuring their back. They can take some limited sick days so they do not fail their placement.

        • Sabine 13.1.3.1

          That has always been the case and currently is the case.

          The retail job in my post above – the 'manager' was me. After about three month of working there i got blood poisioning. Pretty bad up the leg, felt interesting to say the least.

          I got lots of antibiotics, a note for the white cross clinic that i should be in bedrest for a few days etc. I go to work to my manager, and i was told that i had no rights to 'sick leave' and if i wanted to take off i would have to do so without pay. Which of course does not help to pay the bills.

          I went to work. Every day. Drugged to the hilt, white as death, and sick as.

          If you have cancer treatment the five days are not gonna get you through. So you go to work.

          And everyone i knew in the last office that i worked before redundancy having a cold or the flu was no reason to stay home. they went to work, and everyone got sick, and everyone went to work. Reason? Most hoped to accumulate enough sick days for something 'real' like cancer, or a serious injury, or a serious illness of a family member.

          • Incognito 13.1.3.1.1

            Employees can accumulate up to 20 sick days over four years.

            • Sabine 13.1.3.1.1.1

              yes, and that is what i learned is what quite a few people do so as to have a bit of a cushion if they have something bad.

              a friend underwent a masectomy this year with all the treatments that come with cancer. People in her office 'donated' some of their sick days to her for the treatment so she could stay home.

              She got the last treatment just before shutdown and is working from home fulltime.

  14. Anker 14

    A side issue, but I heard Bonus Bonds have 3.2 billion to pay out over the next yet as they are folding. It couldn’t come at a better time for the economy imho

    • In Vino 14.1

      I personally am fascinated about this. I bought a single dollar bond in 1969 when it started. I will be so delighted to get it back. I think I will crack a bottle of Champers when I get it. It was actually a paper note back then.

      (It never won a prize, but any chance was better than none at all. Moderation in gambling!)

      • anker 14.1.1

        Yep will be getting $20 back, but have a friend who will get $3000.00. 3.2 billon a lot to be coming back into circulation.

      • Treetop 14.1.2

        Hold onto it, get it signed and you might increase the value.

        Who would you want to sign it?

        About 15 years ago I got as change a $5 note and it had on it to Kevin (not sure if it had sir in the signature) but it was signed by Edmund Hillary.

        I did not keep the $5 note as the name Kevin had many unhappy memories for me.

        A few years later on the radio I heard Kevin Milne talking about loosing a $5 note which Sir Edmund Hillary had signed. I think he tucked it into a picture frame and it fell out.

        So had I kept the $5 note signed by Edmund Hillary would I have been the owner?

        I know the $5 note would be worth a lot now.

        • Sabine 14.1.2.1

          so you are saying the bottle of whiskey that i auctioned of Jacinda Ardern before the last election and that is signed by her is worth money? Yei!

  15. ScottGN 15

    That party vote for National in the Auckland Central poll must be giving Nats head office the heebiejeebies!

    • Uncle Scrim 15.1

      Yes definitely, especially with a combined 68% left/centre-left party vote – or 70% for the current governing parties if we add in NZF’s paltry contribution.

  16. Byd0nz 16

    20 bucks for the minimum wage, good counter to the poxy tax cut for those workers. Also good signal to move us away from a low wage economy with a trickle up flow.

  17. millsy 17

    October 17 cannot come soon enough.

  18. greywarshark 18

    Right to be fairly treated and have free speech – only works when it is a two-way thing. This man was said to 'collect injustices.' Why can't people be held in prison as mentally unfit to be in society? It will have to come if people can't control themselves. Why should women be killed by vicious partners, their children be killed to get at the parent, a nutter go loose because some people care more about their rights than the vulnerable people they verbally and later physically, attack.

    I was looking up Carl Hiaasen, author, and saw this about his brother's murder.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Capital_Gazette_shooting

  19. greywarshark 19

    Auckland Harbour Bridge was built at a time when integrity was queen. Any repairs must be with guaranteed okay steel not from China.

    https://www.rnz.co.nz/news/national/426479/no-guarantee-engineers-target-temporary-fix-for-harbour-bridge

  20. ScottGN 20

    Like pretty much all the infrastructure we build in NZ the harbour bridge was a cheapskate job from start to finish.

    • Sabine 20.1

      lowest bidder always wins, never best design or best engineering.

      • Incognito 20.1.1

        That’s way too simplistic. Procurement is much more than just chasing the lowest bid(der), which would be a very simple task/exercise.

        You seem to have time on your hands: https://www.procurement.govt.nz/

        • Sabine 20.1.1.1

          It feels this way. Many years ago, my husband and i were 'preferred contractors to the AKL Council' – we did a lot of graffity prevention works in schools etc. Good fun, but gosh arguing for funds was tedious to say the least.

          One of the people that we worked with – an ex cop – told me that its always the lowest bidder that wins. And sometimes it just feels that way.

          • Incognito 20.1.1.1.1

            Despite anecdotal evidence and feels, it is not generally true. In reality, the successful bid is usually somewhere in-between the cheapest no-frills one and the most expensive all bells & whistles gold-plated top of the shelf one. True, it is a grey area and depends on available budget and many subjective factors. Think of it like a house sale; the highest bid is not always accepted (the ‘winner’) because of conditions & clauses that make it less attractive or unfavourable even. The ‘game’ is a little (!) different when it is not your own money that is spent but the rules for accountability, transparency, and fairness, for example, are therefore quite stringent, as it should be. The tender process is confidential so it is hard, bordering on impossible, for outsiders or even bidding parties to form a proper judgement of the decision and the decision-making process; the rules are clear and known to all.

            • Sabine 20.1.1.1.1.1

              Fair enough. Generally i always only hope that the money is well spend and that the things that are being build are well build. That is all i hope for, that the bridge that i am travelling on is not gonna fall down.

  21. Stuart Munro 21

    Some good moves there – but they are incremental – the real test will be this new wave of "skilled immigration" that's going to get 1000 places in isolation. They are to be for where there is a:

    genuine and justified need for critical and skilled workers

    But those were always the criteria, it's just that corruption meant that was allowed to include fruit pickers, exploitable Bottle-O staff, Chorus employees and of course the prototype for this visa scam, the slave fishermen.

    It will be a fair litmus test of the government, whether they resume the disastrous mass low-wage immigration policies that gave us the fastest growing inequality in the OECD, or whether they have learned – at last – that migration is not an unmixed blessing.

  22. sumsuch 22

    If they are desperate, then they'll accept my promise to vote for them if they increase benefits by 50 %.

  23. sumsuch 23

    Wrong column, but I'm referring to National.

  24. sumsuch 24

    Disappointed at the surface politics above. Iceing and not enough cake.

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