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Open mike 19/10/2020

Written By: - Date published: 6:00 am, October 19th, 2020 - 147 comments
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Open mike is your post.

For announcements, general discussion, whatever you choose.

The usual rules of good behaviour apply (see the Policy).

Step up to the mike …

147 comments on “Open mike 19/10/2020 ”

  1. Sanctuary 1

    Why isn't Chloe co-leader of the Greens already? Far more deserving and electable than Marama.

  2. The text of an email I sent to Jacinda:

    First of all, warm congratulations of a resounding victory.

    But such an overwhelming win presents you and Labour with a real dilemma.

    Do you play it safe to ensure another term in 2023 and continued jobs for your members of parliament, or do you go for broke and begin transforming this country.

    History shows us that, by and large, the opposition doesn’t undo the transformative reforms initiated by the Labour Party, with the notable exception of Norman Kirk’s superannuation scheme. They tend to tinker around the edges, partly by instilling a sense of the ‘underserving poor’ into the welfare system, but they don’t unravel the reforms completely.

    But these are unusual times, in particular because of climate change. Incrementalism is not viable in the face of changes which may lead to the extinction of the entire human race.

    So, be bold, be transformative. Take the Greens into coalition (and the Maori Party) and shake this country to its roots. Prepare us for a 100% sustainable future, the only viable option.

    • greywarshark 3.1

      I like the Greens – legs tied together as in a Three-legged race, but cheerful and keen looking while the right wingers look manic.

    • Draco T Bastard 3.2

      While the 26.8% of party votes National received was not its worst ever result — that ignominious claim to fame remains that of former Clutha-Southland MP Bill English

      Did Blinglish ever return to his Claimed Home in Dipton or did stay in Wellington?

      Leader Judith Collins was defiant yesterday, saying she would not step down from National’s helm and launching a review of its election campaign.

      Ah, so she is trying to claim that 35 seats = 35%.

      • Incognito 3.2.1

        At the time, she wasn’t the Leader. Now, as the Leader, she’s made the Leader’s call that the Leader stays on as the Leader. End. Of.

  3. Treetop 4

    The National caucus meeting tomorrow is going to be memorable for a lot of reasons. No doubt there will be some leaks. The build up started on Saturday night when National's position became clear.

  4. observer 5

    Judith Collins on Morning Report (and elsewhere), incapable of taking responsibility, in denial as much as ever. Self-delusion before an election is one thing, but after that result … it beggars belief. She was given several opportunities by Susie Ferguson to say what she might have done differently, but no.

    Real dilemma for Nat MPs now. If she would just do the usual platitudes ("I'm the leader, I take responsibility") then they could leave her there for a few weeks, before making the inevitable change when they are ready. They don't want to install another caretaker.

    But the lame duck is quacking herself out of a job.

    • Muttonbird 5.1

      A staggering ego. Breath-taking, head-shaking Dunning-Kruger effect on display.

      Collins has been camped at the top of Mt. Stupid for some time.

      • tc 5.1.1

        She's been tramping through the mountain range of born to rule arrogance and privilege so long now it's all she knows.

        The obesity comments showed a breathtaking disconnect and appalling judgement all in one swoop which was all her own work.

        Trumpian styled politics the electorate rejected and unlike Key's DP reign the electorate's a few terms older and wiser to DP stylings she appears unable to leave behind.

    • Treetop 5.2

      The not taking responsibility from Collins jumped out at me. The flip flop leader is probably going to be the dragon lady at the next caucus meeting. See how it goes with Denise Lee and Collins.

      Goodluck to all the remaining and new National MPs.

    • Bruce Ellis 5.3

      One of the things that gets me is her comment that "she fears for the future of this country." She doesn't get that 60% or so of New Zealanders fear for the future of NZ, and that is why they voted Labour &/or Green.

    • Cinny 5.4

      Personal responsibility? ROFL.

      I heard her using the… I've only been in the role for a short time excuse, crikey her memory must be short, Jacinda had only been in the role for a short time when she took it out last election.

      • Patricia Bremner 5.4.1

        Cinny, success is Judith's alone…. failure is caused by circumstance or someone else.

        She is so full of hubris, but that fellow "Goodfellow" needs to go as well, as he has overseen so much poison and dirty politics and never come forward and called it out.

  5. Robert Guyton 6

    Talk about The Green's role in the new Government interests me; or rather, the language being used does; it sounds very adversarial, as though the parties will be locking horns and digging up turf with their hooves to fight for their positions; one leader pitched against the other, a battle of wills and a display of ruthlessness.

    I don't buy it.

    I think it won't be a matter of levering a spot, playing the strongest hand, out-manouvering the opposition.

    I think we're in for a remarkable and pleasant surprise.

    • Devo 6.1

      I think we're in for a remarkable and pleasant surprise.

      Here's hoping. Jacinda would be wise to treat that relationship with respect. A lot of the Labour base like what the Green party bring to politics on the left. Hopefully they don't kowtow to the first time Labour voters because they will go back to their National home as soon as they start looking electable

    • Incognito 6.2

      Either the Greens are (somewhat) in the tent, sharing some of the burden of responsibility of Government and decision-making, or they could be a formidable left-Opposition eating away at Labour’s left base over the next three years. The two parties have much in common but also important differences. Labour wasn’t the only party that was given a mandate, as if there’s only one mandate to go around in NZ. A combined mandate is stronger than two (or three) single ones, not just in terms of numbers in the House, but in taking as many people along as possible. I agree that there’s a lot of positioning going on and now is the time.

    • woodart 6.3

      most of this talk is media looking for stories.

      • I Feel Love 6.3.1

        Agree Woodart, and one thing this election has taught us is 60% of the country do not listen to the media …

  6. Incognito 7

    Jane Patterson on RNZ:

    There won't even be consideration of an arrangement with the Māori Party. Any deal would be a slap in the face to Labour's Māori MPs who are in direct competition with that party which would outweigh any future strategic advantages.

    https://www.rnz.co.nz/news/on-the-inside/428654/election-2020-what-now

    Is she saying that the Labour's Māori MPs are in Parliament to do the Party’s bidding first and for their Māori constituencies second? If yes, it could be a classical pākehā throwaway comment that gives some justification to the distrust of the political system and politicians that is not by Māori, for Māori, about Māori.

    • Devo 7.1

      Labour have always treated the Māori party poorly. "Last cab off the rank" etc

      It shows how little Labour have changed their approach to Māori since their Foreshore and Seabed Act days

      • Anne 7.1.1

        If Labour treated the Maori Party poorly in days gone by, it was because some prominent figures in the M.P. asked for it. Sure, there were some difficulties in the past but they were because of other issues prominent at the time. The F&S Act was a case in point. That Lab govt. was damned if it did and damned if it didn't.

        And if their approach has not changed since the F&S Act days, how come there were stratospheric levels of Maori roll support for Labour on Saturday?

        • Stuart Munro 7.1.1.1

          The F&S was about a stake in existing mussel leases. Treaty notwithstanding, Maori got nothing. And the treaty gives all fisheries, in their entirety, to Maori.

          Not Labour's finest hour.

          • Draco T Bastard 7.1.1.1.1

            And the treaty gives all fisheries, in their entirety, to Maori.

            No it doesn't. It only allows for Māori to keep their traditional fishing areas which is not all of the EEZ.

            • Stuart Munro 7.1.1.1.1.1

              The argument can be made – but not in respect of the near shore stuff. That really was their food basket. That's where foreshore & seabed fell down.

              It only allows for Māori to keep their traditional fishing areas

              I can't read Te Reo, maybe a job for Robert, but the Treaty probably did not take pains to exclude non-traditional fisheries. They probably said "all", and all means all.

              • Draco T Bastard

                It says traditional fishing areas.

                Even if it does cover foreshore and seabed it doesn't cover all of it either because they didn't traditionally fish along the entire coast.

                A hell of a lot of Māori whinging about fishing over the last few decades has been Māori trying to grab more than the Treaty of Waitangi promised. Just look at their outright power grab over the Kermadec sanctuary which wasn't part of NZ when the Treaty was signed and thus not covered by the Treaty.

                  • Draco T Bastard

                    Article the Second.

                    The problem is that Māori have decided to claim more than what was theirs.

                    • Sacha

                      Now, about all that land that was theirs..

                    • McFlock

                      Nope. Nothing there about "traditional".

                      The preamble says it applies to "all parts of this land and (adjoining) islands". As soon as the Crown decided the Kermadecs were "adjoining islands" as part of NZ territory, there you are.

                    • Draco T Bastard

                      Now, about all that land that was theirs..

                      Lost in a war that they started. Considering the Land Wars there's a viable argument that the Treaty no longer applies at all. After all, treaties don't usually survive being broken by war and then the side that started the war keeping all the benefits of the treaty.

                      Were Māori treated badly? Yes.

                      Did they have viable arguments about how parliament handled that? Yes.

                      Should they have started a war? No.

                      And I'm not a supporter of Might Makes Right but that is definitely what applied at the time.

                      The preamble says it applies to "all parts of this land and (adjoining) islands". As soon as the Crown decided the Kermadecs were "adjoining islands" as part of NZ territory, there you are.

                      Nope:

                      1. That would make it actively retrospective and no law does that. Even laws that are made retrospective don't have that kind of open-ended aspect to them. Under that sort of bullshit they actually have claim to Antarctica as well.
                      2. It applies to their lands that each iwi held (in accordance with the understanding at the time which would have been Held, controlled, and used which is actually quite a large limitation) at the time of the signing as specified in Article the Second. In other words, their traditional lands.
                    • McFlock

                      Their lands and adjoining islands. The kermadecs haven't moved that far in a couple of hundred years, have they?

                      edit: Seems to me that you’re recycling the old argument about broadcasting bandwidth not being included in the Treaty.

                    • Sacha

                      I'm not interested in debating Treaty denialists. Nor do I believe this should be a place for that sort of tosh.

                  • greywarshark

                    I agree with Sacha that The Standard shouldn't be a place where denialists and aggravators on about hard-won agreements should be able to insert their wrecking bars.

      • Incognito 7.1.2

        Jane Patterson is not Labour.

        In the last three years there has been increasing emphasis on Māori in government (with lower case) initiatives and funding, e.g. from MBIE and its VM framework.

  7. ScottGN 8

    Collins’s delusional sense of self importance was on full display yesterday when she called that presser for 11.30am in order to tell us nothing really. It’s unbelievable no one told her that pretty much the last person the country wanted to hear from, less than 24 hours after the rout, was the vanquished leader of the National Party.

  8. Anker 9
    • Yes agree Robert. For my part happy to let them get on with it.

    but as labour don’t need the Greens, this is likely to lessen the tussle.

    marama Davidson showing poor judgement imho re saying she’d like a cabinet role. She has no ministerial experience and labour don’t need her…….I hope she shuts up.

    re Kelvin Davis…..a comment about him yesterday and couldn’t Jacinda find him something else to do. NO! He is the Deputy. That is absolutely right imho.
    btw he spoke with a lot of clarity and dignit on tv3 yesterday morning. While people like Grant appear to be more competent, that’s not what we need in a Deputy. We are a bi cultural nation

  9. ScottGN 10

    Agree Anker. The likelihood of Ardern taking the Deputy PM job off a senior Māori MP, whatever their shortcomings, is pretty much zero.
    And yes, Greens would be wise to shut it for a bit and let the negotiations play out.

  10. Peter 11

    Collins has a job possibility coming up. Even though it is short term it suits her personality perfectly. Halloween.

  11. greywarshark 13

    A great political commentary this morning on Radionz.

    https://www.rnz.co.nz/national/programmes/ninetonoon/audio/2018768995/a-new-political-landscape-commentators-sherson-and-jones

    Trish, Neale and Kathryn dissect the election result. Neale Jones was Chief of Staff to Labour Leader Jacinda Ardern, and prior to that was Chief of Staff to Andrew Little. He is the director of Capital Government Relations. Trish Sherson is from corporate affairs firm Sherson Willis, and a former ACT press secretary.

  12. Reality 14

    Marama Davidson's demand that she be in cabinet is rather presumptuous. And her over-talking James Shaw on election night also. Like it or not, the Greens are sometimes considered to be too radical, so she needs to back off a bit. Jacinda will be mindful of the huge numbers of new Labour voters this time that she will not want to scare off.

    [please provide evidence for the first sentence. A link, and a quote or time stamp. In premod until you or someone else provides the back up. If you don’t have evidence, please withdraw the assertion – weka]

    [references below, which are both pre-eletion. So to clarify, Marama Daivdson hasn’t demanded that she be in cabinet since the election. And pre-election her position was described in MSM as a wish not a demand. Please be more careful in future about claims of fact – weka]

    • Devo 14.1

      I haven't heard any demands of cabinet posts. She was just on Nine-to-Noon and was very reasonable sounding about their expectations. She acknowledged that being tied in a formal coalition might not be the best for the Greens ability to criticize independently

      Labour will ignore the Greens and their own left wing at their own peril. It will be a lonely 3 years if they have an opposition to their right and left chipping away at their support

      • Robert Guyton 14.1.1

        In a situation where Labour has "an opposition to their right and left chipping away at their support" the party will have to adopt a defensive, conservative mode; this is not what the country needs and Jacinda Ardern will be sensitive to that and therefore act to bring as many onside as possible (Green/Maori), imo.

        • Andre 14.1.1.1

          It's not just on Ardern and Labour to make something like that work. Any other parties to that arrangement will also need to behave in a mature responsible way and not carry on like Rick from The Young Ones.

          • Robert Guyton 14.1.1.1.1

            Election-night exuberance annoy you, did it 🙂

          • The Al1en 14.1.1.1.2

            The green party increased their vote and, with covid and even a bit of centre switch-a-roo going on, that's huge.

            If labour are going to be mindful of not upsetting the floaters and avoid doing the needed stuff on the left, then that's just going to burn them in '23, where they'll probably leech a chunk of lefty votes.

            If, as it has before with a centrist labour party, and the greens get back to around 15%, the big question is will labour have enough votes remaining to form a government? What they do now determines this three years out.

        • Incognito 14.1.1.2

          Voters don’t like surprises but a single party commanding a majority is not in the spirit of MMP. As an aside, if we had less wasted vote, Labour would not have an absolute majority.

          My view is that Labour was rewarded for its handling of Covid, not for its policy platform, which could be seen as a mandate for BAU. The Greens campaigned hard on policy and did well; I see that as a mandate for transformative policies.

          Ardern has claimed that she is progressive and not a pragmatic centrist and that she wants to take as many people along and make decisions based on consensus. Let’s see what this rhetoric really means in practice.

          The Greens are strong and experienced in certain policy areas. They have things/people to offer to Government that Labour does not have or necessarily want to.

          • Robert Guyton 14.1.1.2.1

            yes

          • Draco T Bastard 14.1.1.2.2

            Voters don’t like surprises but a single party commanding a majority is not in the spirit of MMP.

            Wait, what?

            What does that sentence even mean?

            We have a single party majority government voted in through MMP. This was signalled as likely to happen prior to the election and so we must assume that it is in the spirit of MMP.

            Its not in the spirit of democracy but, then, a large part of the reason why we have Representative Democracy is to prevent democracy. The rich really don't want the majority to have a say as the majority aren't likely to agree with what the rich want.

          • greywarshark 14.1.1.2.3

            Is there a significant wasted vote? Could you put link, I'd like to follow that up.

            • Sacha 14.1.1.2.3.1

              We'll know that when the reeferendum is tallied. 🙂

            • Incognito 14.1.1.2.3.2

              https://www.electionresults.govt.nz/electionresults_2020_preliminary/

              179,228 votes divvied up among the five parties with seats, i.e. 7.5% of the total vote and almost equalling the Greens’ vote, which is 10 seats.

              How else would Labour have 64/120 seats with only (!) 49.1% of the vote?

              • greywarshark

                Gosh I hope that the Commission can classify the main reasons for this wastage – deliberate is probably one, then there is the strange idea on computer programs to utilise a cross in a box which indicates you choose something. That's been in for years and I still can't understand why they would throw aside what was normal and do the opposite – because we can?

                Using the wrong pen? Not realising that you can't cross out a mistake? Not understanding that you can get a new sheet and have to hand in the old one?

                If we can bring down the wastage that is a lot of votes to include.

                • Sacha

                  Wasted is not the same as invalid – it just means that in our MMP system, some votes do not get translated into seats in parliament because small parties did not get over the 5% threshold.

                  Those 'wasted' votes are then shared out proportionally across the parties who did make it in. Happens every time. It’s why you do not need 50% of the votes on the night to end up with a majority.

                  • greywarshark

                    Okay thanks Sacha I jumped to conclusion about meaning there. The plethora of new parties happens each time there is a big shakeup no doubt. I remember all sorts of little parties cropping up before. This time they didn't have the good humour of the McGonagle Party.

      • anker 14.1.2

        Hopefully Marama has toned it down. But yes I definitely heard her talking about wanting a cabinet position, which is really badly judged at this stage.

        I trust that Jacinda, Grant and their "strong team' will make a good decision about the Greens. Their strategy during the election was perfect. They read things well. So I am happy to let them get on with it.

        Someone else commented here that they hoped Jacinda would be respectful to the. Greens. Its' not all credible that she wouldn't be. She maintained a deep level of respect for Winston Peters, who I imagine was very difficult to work with, even post election. Why would she not be respectful to the Greens?If I was the Labour Cabinet, I would want to be shot of all other parties and just take the freedom I had to get on with it. But I know they are wiser heads than I am and that they will make good decisions around this.

        bTW Anne Salmond has written a brilliant article about the election result, describing Jacinda as a master navigator. Will try and post later.

        AND…….. Congratulations to all on the Standard. Our teams pulled off the most marvellous result. And many of us would have played some role in that.

        • weka 14.1.2.1

          "But yes I definitely heard her talking about wanting a cabinet position, which is really badly judged at this stage."

          Where did she say that since the election?

          • weka 14.1.2.1.1

            This?

            "We would want to see roles that would progress [our work] programme, and yes, it would involve some ministerial responsibility at that level," she says.

            "Across all of our MPs, we will be looking at aligning potential roles with the work programme, as a whole not just down to one person."

            https://www.rnz.co.nz/national/programmes/morningreport/audio/2018768874/greens-sweep-10-seats

            • Incognito 14.1.2.1.1.1

              A Ministerial responsibility =/= a Cabinet position.

            • aom 14.1.2.1.1.2

              Thanks for the careful moderation, it's too easy for commentors to pick stuff up from interviews then misrepresent what someone has said when filtering comments through their own perspectives. It is obvious in this case that Marama Davidson was responding to a hypothetical scenario posed by Kathryn Ryan in the context of an interview and clearly did not express any claim or demand for a cabinet post. That aside, it seems there is a lot of projection, taking comments out of context or building of contexts around throw-away lines where Davidson is concerned. Over the election period, it would be fair to say that she has worked extremely hard to convey Green Party policy, and has put other party leaders to shame with her enthusiasm and presentation.

          • anker 14.1.2.1.2

            Sorry can't remember Weka. I have watched so election stuff in the last 48 hours, can't remember where I saw it. But I think someone else on the standard saw it too.

            Unless I am dreaming politics now, which is always a possibility! But as sure as I can be I saw it.

            just saw your above comment. It wasn’t Radio NZ I saw it on. She may have said ministerial roles. So I could be wrong about the Cabinet thing.
            I stand by my point that given the electoral result and the lack of bargining power they have and also her lack of Ministerial experience, I think a poor call. IMHO

    • weka 14.2

      mod note for you Reality.

    • CrimzonGhost 14.3

      Not a demand, just expressing her wishes/desire/hope.

      [Corrected user name]

    • froggleblocks 14.4

      https://www.interest.co.nz/opinion/107594/hayden-wilson-and-linda-clark-dentons-kensington-swan-assess-what-weekends-election

      Thanks to those ‘new’ voters, Labour’s dominance means that the Greens, despite their own strong turn-out, may find themselves excluded from any meaningful power. On election night Greens coleader Marama Davidson was talking up her own preference to serve as a Cabinet Minister in an Ardern-led Government. But Davidson is getting ahead of herself.

      My bold. This was never a ‘demand’ though.

  13. Pat 15

    NZ needs to offer itself as the experimental model for a first world decarbonised economy…providing the canvas, policy and training support for all the best (and holistic) ideas that will attract those with vision and abilities required, both from within and without the country…it will also provide investment, with the proviso that much of the ownership will remain public.

    We must learn by doing.

    • greywarshark 15.1

      Yes while we have the world's attention over our Covid management let's see what other good things we can show to the world re realigning ourselves for climate change advance and attempts to slow that advance.

      And of course, remembering that we haven't achieve saintly perfection yet, what about encouraging the greenies of the world to advise us on what they are doing which we haven't got to yet. Do all the greenies of the world have a fact based site where they share their country's advances and trials which we belong to? If there is one could someone advise if – must be scientific, and can anyone look at it.

      I am finding so many of the news sites are blocked and while I understand their need for income etc. it is hard for citizen students of the world to gather reliable info. Of course I have to work at my tech skills which are dire. I can't get most pdfs at present and just have to look at converters or whatever that I probably already have. I get worried that there is so much to learn and the amount of general tv time that people spend doesn't give them time to read and imbibe the info coming from science and they end up half-informed, which these days is common.

      • mikesh 15.1.1

        'Greenies' tell us that one of the main drivers of global warning is excess consumption by Western nations: which is ironic given the emphasis on 'growth' on the part of the major parties. I would suggest that 'green growth' be redefined in terms of an increase in decarbonizatuion, even that growth is at the expense of fossil fuel use.

        • greywarshark 15.1.1.1

          The problem is how fast can we let the air out of the tyres so we can get started. I suppose the decarb means less vehicles – smaller ones for a start. The boofheads are the sort that rammed their semi-tank into a car on the motorway which was particularly fun because it was a woman. Get them into a lower smaller vehicle and we could have fairer bullbar-fights.

          What about putting a vehicle tax on private vehicles higher than a car, or with more seats than six? Gradual, but would brass off the dealers eh.

          What do you have in mind for decarbonization?

          • mikesh 15.1.1.1.1

            What do you have in mind for decarbonization?

            One of the parties – I don't remember whether it was Labour or the Greens – was advocating banning the import of ICE vehicles from 2030. I would ban them earlier: next week if it were practicable.

  14. SPC 16

    It's interesting that after the election a high level public servant of the State Services Commision (responsibility for Auckland) is making comments about how difficult it is for new MP's in parliament.

    He is a former candidate for National, and one wonders what his role would have been if National did an ECAN on the Auckland regions local government as some in National were proposing.

    https://www.newshub.co.nz/home/politics/2020/10/labour-warned-inexperience-could-cause-problems-for-the-next-government.html

    • Uncle Scrim 16.1

      I think you might have the wrong Lewis Holden there!

      • Drowsy M. Kram 16.1.1

        Thanks Uncle Scrim (and thank-you Wikipedia) – quite right.

        "Lewis Dare Holden is not the Lewis Joseph Holden who is the campaign chair for New Zealand Republic. They are not related."
        https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lewis_Holden

        • SPC 16.1.1.1

          OK, but why is the photo of Lewis Joseph Holden shown here with the Lewis Dare Holden public servant bio?

          https://www.google.com/search?q=Lewis+Dare+Holden&oq=Lewis+Dare+Holden&aqs=chrome..69i57&sourceid=chrome&ie=UTF-8

          • Drowsy M. Kram 16.1.1.1.1

            No idea; maybe it's some uncurated web thing that automatically grabs an available photo with a name match?

            As Lewis Dare Holden was a researcher for the 1986 Royal Commission on the Electoral System, when Lewis Joseph Holden (selected at age 29 as the National party candidate for the Rimutaka electorate in 2014 general) was but an infant, it's safe to assume that they're two different people.

            Not disagreeing with LJH's comment about how tough is can be for new MPs, although since he's never been an MP himself that must be second-hand knowledge he's passing on.

            • SPC 16.1.1.1.1.1

              He's right about new MP's needing support.

              But then again he is also one of many on the right inferring Labour are a lot of inexperienced lightweights not ready for the job.

              • Uncle Scrim

                Lewis Dare Holden was chief executive of the Ministry for Culture and Heritage prior to his current SSC role, and I think held that role in 2014, at the time of his namesake’s electoral tilt.

              • RedBaronCV

                sounds like a patronising git to me. If this had been the Nacts it would be

                "celebrating the infusion of new talent "

  15. greywarshark 17

    Are the elderly the biggest fans of Ayn Rand's thinking – especially The Virtue of Selfishness, without actually having read it or considered its intellectual and philosophical points?

    One critique from shaunphilly delves into this in –

    Skepticism, Properly Applied – Criticism is not uncivil

    and points out that Rand defines selfishness differently from the norm. It seems to me that she ‘objectively’ considers it as focussing on oneself as a person and considering what you want out of life and going for it.

    https://polyskeptic.com/2014/03/25/ayn-rands-the-virtue-of-selfishness-an-introductory-critique/
    …Her dichotomy between altruism and selfishness (egoism) is sophomoric philosophy, and misses too much to be as influential as her thinking continues to be.

    As a disclaimer, I view ethics as not based upon altruism (selflessness) or egoism (selfishness), and view the dichotomy, which Rand employs, between altruism and egoism as misguided as a means of thinking about ethics at a basic level. For me, ethics is based in the value of fairness, derived from freedom and its logical consequences. Further, while an analysis of ethical philosophy can start from consideration of selfish interests, so long as it remains there i[t] never becomes a discussion about ethics at all (I know some people disagree with m[e] on this point, and I’m willing to defend this view)….

    This is one aspect of looking at how division and anti-social factors are working in modern society against the wide community, living well in near groups – separate but in reasonable harmony, having respect and trust between peoples, and inclusion though maintaining the right for individuality. It is not impossible but requires consideration between near neighbours, and thought for all.

    One could think of this while listening to the Radionz interview of Kathryn winning Ryan with documentary maker Lance Oppenheim about the division and separation from the wider community of this Florida 'retirement village' which has 100,000 residents having multiple golf courses and diversions.
    https://www.rnz.co.nz/national/programmes/ninetonoon/audio/2018769002/some-kind-of-heaven-retirement-living-florida-style
    .

    This brings to mind the smaller South African Afrikaner township of Orania. There is separation from the wider community on different lines, with estimated 1700 residents. https://www.theguardian.com/cities/2019/oct/24/an-indictment-of-south-africa-whites-only-town-orania-is-booming
    .

    And the glossing-up with sentimentality of the modern elderly, unwilling to accept death in their time, and willing to divorce themselves from the young in the film Cocoon, where residents of a retirement village choose eternal life amongst their age group by travelling to a distant planet, and one featured older couple leave behind their daughter and their grandchild whom they profess to love.

    This film was an analogy for so much now; the cult of the deserving elderly not expected to reciprocate with caring interaction with society at all, and the wealthy not ready to reciprocate with Earth society and fixing their eyes and money on space and experimental societies there.

    • Pat 17.1

      I suspect that in the main the exact opposite is the case….as the link I posted yesterday noted the elderly and young are bullied by the middle aged…note how many (Jim Bolger springs to mind) moderate or even radicalise their views as the spectre of mortality creeps ever closer.

      Youth are not only the future.

      • greywarshark 17.1.1

        edit
        I note how good for retirement homes business the elderly are, especially while they have pensions. One reason that the old are the future, and why welfare gets cut to the young whose opportunities for social mobility and advancement have been pulled away from under their feet. I guess the middle-aged with middle-income are doing the bullying, as they are the ones surging forward with great money-making ideas. Everyone stand aside for the noble young entrepreneurs who have the sensitivity of those carrying out the Highland Clearances.

        (This doesn't apply to all entrepreneurial people but of many such as the self-important new-age greenies act as in giving over our footpaths to small fast-moving vehicles never considering that there is an oxymoron? in not being pedantic and pedestrian about 'footpaths' but preferring the pedal-pushers.)

        My comparison with the Highland Clearances and determination to dominate and denature by the ruling elite cannot be seen clearly now, but the mindset is there, and unleashed it looks like Judith Collins in full flow, or look back to a notable starter, Jenny Shipley. And all the others female and male who have been recipients of a progressive and reasonably caring society. Now they have got what they want they have wrung the wets out of society and dumped the 'reasonably caring' just leaving the dry 'progressive'; but to what?

        • Pat 17.1.1.1

          the greedy are always the greedy irrespective of age…and sadly too many are driven to positions of influence

          • greywarshark 17.1.1.1.1

            This goes beyond greedy. It is the wrong word to use – did I? I can't remember. It is a mindset that needs to change. The world is changing, past systems were tailored for the need at that time.

            The mature senior wants his cake and to eat it too; he and she are living longer, lining up for all the medical help of modern times, and as the ad for some retirememt place recently says, 70 is the new 50. The years from 65 to death at near 100 (increasingly) mean nearly one-third of life being paid to be an old-age pensioner.

            But the active retired should be doing something for the society that enables them to have this secure life. They should not feel entitled to sit back and enjoy the comforts and do nothing to assist the wellbeing of the young and general society. Many grandparents are helping by raising their grandchildren. That probably wouldn't have been the case if there was more care from the country for our young people. With concern into assisting parents and children and being there when difficulties fall, families wouldn't collapse as now. And for the money-ridden, it would offer savings in tax, health, education and policing.

            Life would be better for all if the older people, who tend to be better off, turned right round and looked back at the youth and extended friendship and interest, Not as an onerous task but just a little help, 3-5 hours a week should be a universally expected time, and become part of the general conversation. Not just volunteering by those who feel inclined, and those who do put themselves out. For instance the query would be heard routinely from one retired person to another, 'What are you getting into this year from the government program list?' After a gap year for the retired so they really enjoy a break for themselves and seeing their own family, then choose an interest from the Senior Societal Support program.

  16. joe90 18

    Straight out of a Clancy novel.

    NEW YORK (AP) — The Trump White House has installed two political operatives at the nation’s top public health agency to try to control the information it releases about the coronavirus pandemic as the administration seeks to paint a positive outlook, sometimes at odds with the scientific evidence.

    The two appointees assigned to the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention’s Atlanta headquarters in June have no public health background. They have instead been tasked with keeping an eye on Dr. Robert Redfield, the agency director, as well as scientists, according to a half-dozen CDC and administration officials who spoke to The Associated Press on the condition of anonymity to discuss internal government affairs.

    https://apnews.com/article/election-2020-virus-outbreak-pandemics-public-health-new-york-e321f4c9098b4db4dd6b1eda76a5179e

    • RedBaronCV 18.1

      Or how Russia used to have political appointees supervising those who do. The term is Commissar is it not?

  17. SPC 19

    The risk that the second wave of the pandemic could derail the Euro zone's recovery from deep recession makes ultra-easy monetary policy all the more necessary, European Central Bank board member Fabio Panetta
    Having already agreed to buy up to 1.35 trillion euros of debt through mid-2021 under an emergency purchase scheme, the ECB is not under pressure to act quickly – but investors are still looking for a commitment to bigger and longer debt buys.

    https://www.reuters.com/article/us-ecb-policy-panetta/pandemic-wave-risks-delaying-euro-zone-recovery-ecbs-panetta-idUSKBN2720MT

    Buying up debt as an investment they can later sell – to whom and when? While interest rates offer miserable returns …

  18. SPC 20

    Britain needs to impose a three-week period of national lockdown restrictions immediately to stop cases of COVID-19 spiralling, Government scientific adviser Jeremy Farrar said, adding that current regional measures would not be effective

    Oh dear, expert criticism of the Tory government.

    But if the PM follows such advice he will criticised by the neo-woke champions of the young on the Telegraph such as Madelaine Grant (those who locked youth out of the EU but oppose local lockdowns).

  19. Muttonbird 21

    Union national secretary Joe Fleetwood said the union had raised concerns about the risk of having international ships carry domestic freight repeatedly.

    He said nearly all domestic sea freight is carried by international ships running international crews who are not covered by New Zealand law.

    Wow, didn't know this.

    https://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/covid-19-coronavirus-ken-rei-logging-ship-carrying-close-contacts-of-new-covid-case-remains-anchored-off-napier/4WJ536K7SII3VT3QG5VVCTJEJI/

    I reckon this case adds weight to the theory the Auckland outbreak in Auckland came from international crews. Not a great sign there are still holes there but good it was picked up and traced early.

  20. Reality 22

    Weka – Stuff 14 October George Block's column mentions Marama Davidson's wish for a Cabinet role.

    Politik, Richard Hartman, 15 October – "Marama Davidson gave a heavy hint that she would want to be a minister this time around".

    Sorry I did not quote sources in my earlier post, but I knew I had not made it up.

  21. Scud 23

    Well looks like this Government has its hands already full on the Foreign, Defence and Antarctic Policies?

    First one was during the election which just about everyone failed to raise any questions was the encroachment of the Chinese and possibly the Taiwanese Fishing Fleet into NZ’s EEZ Nth /Nth East of the Kermadec Islands and Sth of the Minerva Reefs.

    Apart from Michael Field who mentioned this on Twitter, none of NZ’s fourth estate, NZ’s MFAT said boo or the NZDF release a press release of the RNZAF or RNZN patrolling NZ’s EEZ up in NZ’s Nth’ern waters.

    Now we what, I’ve described here on The Standard Blog for those who haven’t been following my comments here over the yrs. Is the last great race as a result of CC nowadays, the last great land grab when the Antarctic Treaty comes up for renewal in & round 2040-47. Well folks it looks like the race is about to kick off with Russia moving its Floating Nuclear Power under down for this years Antarctic Summer?

    Yep a Nuclear Power Station in the Antarctic and yet we’re heard boo from Oz or NZ about this. This even more concerning that NZLP never release its Defence manifesto for the election just gone and even more concerning I did find anything on the Antarctic/ Southern Ocean either? There are two major tenders and possibly two others due at the tail end of this coming term or early next term?

    The two major ones are this term is the 1 of 2 new Landing Ships with a docking well and the other is a new Southern Ocean Patrol Vessel. These two vessels won’t come cheap either and the Government will be very lucky to get any change out of NZD 1.5B for two of these vessels. The Southern Ocean Patrol Vessel is going to be a whooper of Ship in length 115m plus long, a beam (Width) of some 24m wide and Polar Classification of PC5 as a minimum or a PC6 this in part due to CC as a result of the massive big waves now being encountered down Sth.

    • greywarshark 23.1

      We have fishing relationship with Russia. Are we going to be pate' between Russia, China, and the USA?

      • Scud 23.1.1

        There is a bit more to this, in that the Chinese have cleaned out their surrounding waters including around Nth Korea and its also one the reasons for the 9 dash line in the South China Sea so the can rape & pillage that as well.

        The Chinese have a very large ocean fishing which is also escorted by the Chinese Coast Guard and those ships aren't just any ship. These Ships have a displacement between a Frigate and Destroyer type Ship, but quite the firepower after the Chinese had a run in with the Chilean and the Argie Navies a couple of yrs back when they caught their EZZ's including in a Chilean No Fishing zone.

        The Chinese Fishing Fleet are acting like modern day pirates on the High Seas, with no regards to EEZ's, reporting what they catch, No Fishing Zones, under reporting, breaching just about every international law in regards to fishing and if they get caught in the act. Where they act like thugs or worst sunk ships be it local fishing boats or that nations naval/ coast guard ships. Unless you are the Chilean or Argie Navies which shoot first and ask later, which is something NZ use to do in the 70's & 80's with its Navy and Airforce where everyone knew where they stood if you caught in NZ Waters/ the EEZ.

        In other words the Chinese would rape & pillage anyone's waters until you put a shot across the their bows and sunk a fishing boat or boats as the Chinese a quite prepared to throw their weight as well to weak countries or those expose countries that rely on exporting to the Chinese market.

    • Sacha 23.2

      a Nuclear Power Station in the Antarctic

      Is it that or just a powered vessel?

      • Scud 23.2.1

        This Nuclear Power Station floats on a barge which is towed by ocean going tugs

        • aj 23.2.1.1

          Yep a Nuclear Power Station in the Antarctic

          Nothing new, McMurdo Station =Nuclear power 1962–1972

          Russia has a long history of exploration and science on that continent. Read Fabian Gottlieb von Bellingshausen

        • Andre 23.2.1.2

          You completely sure there's a rooskie nuke power station going to be installed in Antarctica? Not just the supply ship that's nuke-powered?

          There's the floating nuke station Akademik Lomonosov that got towed to a town in the Arctic last year to supply electricity and heat, but I haven't heard of one getting built for Antarctica.

          Vostok Station is roughly 1000km from the nearest coast, so a floating nuke wouldn't help them out much, and it would be quite the engineering feat to build transmission lines from the coast to the station.

          Having said all that, I'm not all that bovvered by nuke power stations, and I really wouldn't begrudge them one at Vostok Station. Reputedly the coldest place on earth, with a record low of -89 degrees C. Colder than dry ice.

  22. greywarshark 24

    Some interesting green things that have come up recently in the media.

    On Radionz – Fancy fungi – looks like a rose.

    https://www.rnz.co.nz/national/programmes/ninetonoon/audio/2018769012/fancy-fungi-ohau-gourmet-mushrooms

    Book: Arihia Latham reviews Te Mahi Oneone Hua Parakore: A Maori Soil Sovereignty and Wellbeing Handbook edited by Jessica Hutchings and Jo Smith. Published by Freerange Press.

    https://www.rnz.co.nz/national/programmes/ninetonoon/audio/2018769003/book-review-te-mahi-oneone-hua-parakore

    And Book on Fungi : https://www.penguin.co.nz/books/entangled-life-9781847925206
    There is a life form on our planet so strange and wondrous that it challenges our conception of life itself…Entangled Life introduces

    an almost wholly unknown and mysterious category of life form, an entire underground realm whose workings are so wondrous and alien that they throw into question what we think life itself is and how it works.
    Author: Merlin Sheldrake

  23. ianmac 25

    If Brownlee and Smith choose to retire, will we like their replacements?

    Having a couple of fading senior MPs around in the National Party might help the Left mightn't it?

  24. logie97 26

    "Bluest of Blue seats voters selected Labour MP's and Labour Party to keep the Greens out."

    I have heard this theory from local Federated Farmers and as recently as on the Panel being expressed by Tim Watkins.

    Actually, I think the "cockies" just don't understand MMP.

    On the evidence, they gave two ticks to Labour. So in effect, ditched their own National MP as well. If they did mean to have a Labour government, they just needed the Party tick for Labour. Probably more precise is that they just felt that their beloved National Party is currently a shambles and didn't stand for anything.

  25. AB 27

    Has Fran still got the networks to engineer another "winter of discontent" ? Murmurs of farmers in Rangitata supposedly strategically voting Labour to take the Greens out of play, plenty of media commentary about 'governing from the centre'. You can sense the wheels of the elite's extra-electoral self-preservation mechanisms turning. You can vote for whomever you like sonny, but it’s going to be a certain way…

  26. greywarshark 28

    There is a good discussion on trade – free trade – what trade etc going on the Daily Review 15/10. There is sure to be something you have thought of and some you haven't. Please go on if you have something else in mind McFlock and DTB. We need to think about it.

    My belief is that it is only local trading, with some extended stuff, and specialist imports, that enables people to improve their standard of living. But of course cheapness can regn, and getting titimasu in the frigs from Italy! What am I, royalty, to be offered such treats requiring refrigeration from Italy.? Or are they made here under licence?

    I remember a story in the New Internationalist. Up high in Nepal the tourists who were into the outdoors would go and stay. They liked tomatoes but for much of the year there wasn't enough warmth and sun locally to make them go red. Then a handy new road was put in and a truck ground its way up from the Indian fields below with lovely red toms. The green ones grown locally were not saleable. The truck had it hard though and one day it ground to a halt at the side of the road. The locals were able to sell their green ones. In a fairly poor community it is a capitalist trick to say that it is fine to compete, it may be literally taking food out of children's mouths. (They themselves probably didn't want to eat all the green tomatoes though they can be used in cooking and chutneys okay.)

  27. SPC 29

    Murdoch media gaslighting Ardern.

    https://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/politics/election-2020-aussies-hit-back-after-the-australian-columnist-slams-inept-jacinda-ardern/53AIA7UAPEGRJZF4WJKOCES4RE/

    This is the reason Murdoch's own son gave for leaving the business – saying it was not a reliable source of news, as the partisanship was impacting on its coverage.

    • Muttonbird 29.1

      A lot of people got upset here and remarkably across different forums when I asked, "who wants to see Australia burn", on Christmas day.

      This is one of the reasons why. Also, nice sunsets.

  28. Muttonbird 30

    Interesting interactive here:

    https://interactives.stuff.co.nz/2020/10/election-2020-results-analysis-labour-day/

    If I told you there were just six local areas which showed gains for National and four of them were in South Auckland, would you believe me?

    The biggest gain for National was 5.5% in…Mangere North. That is gentrification for you.

  29. greywarshark 31

    Lee Kuan Yew bound his Singapore nation which was successful under capitalism but Yanis Varoufakis says it isn't a democracy. Can we manage to be successful AND a democracy? I don't think we have enough of the qualities he mentions.

    “A nation is great not by its size alone. It is the will, the cohesion, the stamina, the discipline of its people and the quality of their leaders which ensure it an honourable place in history.”
    ― Kuan Yew Lee, The Wit and Wisdom of Lee Kuan Yew

    https://www.goodreads.com/work/quotes/25514453-the-wit-and-wisdom-of-lee-kuan-yew

  30. ScottGN 32

    @ logie97 26.

    I agree. The idea getting shopped around today that National voters just voted tactically to keep the Greens at bay is right wing spin. If that was the case Labour wouldn’t have flipped so many safe National seats. It’s just excuse making and speaks to the National Party born-to-rule bullshit mentality. They’re basically saying voters will realise their dumb mistake and come flooding back to where they rightfully belong. They haven’t learned anything from their ousting from office in 2017.

    • Treetop 32.1

      For all I know the National voters could have voted Labour because it is about survival.

      Labour could do well with farming deals once Johnson leaves without a Brexit no deal. Talks have not gone well with the EU. NZ needs a persuasive agriculture minister to woo Johnson.

      • greywarshark 32.1.1

        Johnson UK – woo woo! 'All mouth and (no) trousers'. Good luck.

        • Treetop 32.1.1.1

          greywarshark the economic shock of Covid is going to impact in 12 – 18 months. NZ needs as many long term trading partners as they can get.

    • mac1 32.2

      On the Friday 8 days before polling day, Judith Collins was advising an audience that to forestall the Greens they should vote two ticks blue.

      To claim now that farmers voted two ticks Labour to forestall them is 1. logical but 2, not what Collins counselled.

      So we are to believe that farmers disobeyed Collins, voted two ticks Labour to keep out the Greens?

      Why two ticks? Why not just party vote Labour?

      There's more to this and it's to do with the National party selecting poor candidates- disloyal, unethical, misogynistic, bullying, born to rule, unsavoury, better left unelected.

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