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Open mike 19/11/2021

Written By: - Date published: 6:00 am, November 19th, 2021 - 97 comments
Categories: open mike - Tags:

Open mike is your post.

For announcements, general discussion, whatever you choose.

The usual rules of good behaviour apply (see the Policy).

Step up to the mike …

97 comments on “Open mike 19/11/2021 ”

  1. lprent 1

    Damn good song – I like the way that they reused the old highwayman song and gave alternate lyrics

  2. Anne 2

    What a mealy mouthed, sour graped and pathetic little prick of a man!. Yes, I know who he is. Chris Bishop's father!


    Soper has a rival for the most detestable journalist in the country.

    • Heather Grimwood 2.1

      Shocked me that anyone would produce such vile…..must out into garden to immerse in beautiful sights and sounds.

    • Gezza 2.2

      I don’t think his analysis is all that wrong, he just wastes far too many words on extraordinarily petty personal insults & general sniping.

      Surprised Stuff published it. I wouldn’t have.

      • Anne 2.2.1

        His analysis is completely wrong where the prime minister is concerned. He's a misogynistic creep and should be called out on it.

        In fact I’d go further and say he is a lying a*****e.

        One example: every APEC the leaders have a photo in their silly shirts etc. Does the leader of the host country get lambasted for being soft and weak? No. They do a zoom version of the same photo in NZ. He ridicules Ardern as if she’s “rolling out mush”.

        • Gezza

          I don't have the same respect for Ardern's talent as a PM as you do. Beyond the things she's famous for & the carefully manufactured & cultured image, there's not a lot of clever work going on in the engine room behind her.

          • Blazer

            What qualities do you admire in a leader Gezza?

            I think media and PR is probably the most important skill,given democracies are usually consensus driven politics.

            Just like health officials form Covid policy to the major degree and the P.M and associates present it to the public.

            Take a look at Todd Muller,supposedly competent but communication skills were glaringly absent.

            Nationals most popular leader epitomised the smile and wave m.o and his carefully crafted persona gelled with the voters.

            Very little real substance behind his 'success'.

            • Gezza

              That’s a very good first question, Blazer. I want to spend some hours thinking about it before replying to that one.

              “Nationals most popular leader epitomised the smile and wave m.o and his carefully crafted persona gelled with the voters. Very little real substance behind his ‘success’.”


              Interesting you should say that. I certainly wouldn’t disagree with your opinion there. You may not recall me saying so previously on YNZ, but I sometimes watch The House at Question Time & I’ve commented on there that I see quite a few parallels between Ardern & Key in their debate & answer styles in The House.

              Ardern is a lot more garrulous than Key ever was but they display a lot of the same smart-arsery when set up by their principal lieutenants to get a dig in to the Oppos by having someone else deliver the cutting remark, without tainting their own carefully crafted image.

              • Gezza

                PS: Sir John Key’s success, imo, was always built off the solid, dependable work of his Deputy, Sir Simon William (Bill) English KNZM. Without Bill, Key had nuthin.

                • Blazer

                  Very glowing praise for a very average career politician .

                  Inherited the spoils of Cullens masterly economic management and just borrowed and kept borrowing.

                  Ignored the housing crisis,defunded public services to try and achieve budget surplus and failed miserably.

                  Halted contributions to the Cullen Fund,halved Kiwisaver contributions and enjoyed a thoroughly undeserved reputation as a 'safe pair of hands'.

                  His 'rockstar economy' relied on property inflation and ramping immigration to boost GDP….and now we are left to deal with the… dire effects.

                  • left for dead

                    That's right,and what happened to us NZ getting parity with Aussie,we only got closer when the Aussies slipped backwards.
                    edited: income and living standards.

                  • Gezza

                    @ B

                      If "solid, dependable work" is your idea of *glowing praise* you'd wet yourself if you saw my email copied to the CEO of CCDHB. 

                    What did the sarcastic, acerbic Cullen do about the housing crisis, btw? When did it start?

                    • Blazer


                      PS: Sir John Key’s success, imo, was always built off the solid, dependable work of his Deputy, Sir Simon William (Bill) English KNZM. Without Bill, Key had nuthin.'-quote in context.

                      When the 'crisis' started is debateable.

                      We know up until at least 2017 the Govt of the day said there was no crisis.

                    • Gezza

                      Dunno what the heck happened there – half my 1st sentence is missing. It said:

                      “B If “solid, dependable work” is your idea of “glowing praise” you’d wet yourself if you saw my email copied to the CEO of CCDHB.”

                      When you say the start of the housing crisis is “debatable”, do you mean it probly* started during the Clark/Cullen regime?

                      *probly – a new word that means the same as “probably” but is shorter, has fewer syllables, & seems to be increasingly favoured by a clutch of new, young tv cub reporters.

                    • bwaghorn

                      You leave saint Cullen alone , kiwisaver was a master stroke . As long as no fucks with it itll help so many kiwis into houses and into old age.

                  • alwyn

                    "Halted contributions to the Cullen Fund".

                    That is certainly a great deal more sensible than our current lot are doing. The Cullen Fund, as originally set up, was to be the recipient of excess Government revenue, ie taxes. The theory, which made no economic sense by the way, was that we would save the money up today and spend it in 40 years or so.

                    What are we doing now? We are borrowing money which we put into the Cullen Fund. At some future date we may get something out of the fund with which, if we are very lucky and manage to keep our politician's grubby little paws off it in the meantime, be able to repay the borrowing.

                    The best thing we can do with the Cullen Fund is to wind it up and spend the money on Covid support expenditure and not borrow all of the $100,000,000,000.00 that Robertson is lumbering us with.

                    • Blazer

                      alwyn I say alwyn….don't you realise the Cullen Fund was the reason English could make such large borrowings from international financiers.

                      Have you offered your advice to Norway regarding their National Fund!

                    • Patricia Bremner

                      50 billion Alwyn .

                    • left for dead

                      Speaking to the then Michael Cullen,he felt it to be, one of the only ways of putting some wealth into a low wage economy.

                • Stuart Munro

                  Bill was not particularly solid – we saw the measure of the man with Solid Energy, for which he was responsible minister. Under his watch it fell apart and had to be hocked off in pieces for a song. Not the sort of trick one would have seen from a safe pair of hands.

                • Patricia Bremner

                  Bill English lost our respect over his behaviour about the other Todd. (Barclay). He tried to hide his part in that, and had to alter his Police statement.

                  Jacinda Ardern does not need your affirmation Gezza. As I said when you described her grasp of the English language in very caustic terms, ICU.

                  Bill English and his mate Bill Birch did untold harm with their contract acts austerity and tax cuts.

                  You ask “What did Cullen do?” He called out the “Rich pricks” he began a savings scheme which assists first home buyers and encourages the habit of saving and will assist many at retirement.
                  He left the country in a sound state, even Bill English admitted that.

                  • Gezza

                    Of course Ardern doesn’t need my affirmation, Patricia. Who on earth would think she did?

                    We’ll have to wait a bit & see what kind of Financial Manager Robertson is. He’s running a fairly conservative fiscal policy according to most commentators, & it’s not fixing many of the problems in our society at the bottom end. In fact it may even be excerbating them.

                    Wellington inner city violent crime is up p, for example, ever since they started moving gang members & associates & partners & people with all sorts of problems not being sorted (eg mental health issues) into “emergency accommodation” in city motels & hotels.

                    There are occasional reports of similar problems in other places as it has become realised MSD/Housing under Labour is very slow to act at all on problem tenants.

                    Prison muster is down, but nationally violent crime is up. Connected?

                    Gang recruitment well outpacing police recruitment.

                    Child povidy continually reported to be worse – or at least no better.

                    Queues at Foodbankd reportedly longest ever.

                    Ardern has over time now become a high profile constantly-on-tv micro-managing expert on the minutiae of Covid. That should be Hipkins’ job, imo.

                    A good PM should be working on getting her ministers to sort out this other stuff, imo.

                  • aj

                    English also rorted the MP's housing allowance by claiming his primary residence was in Dipton.

                    The 'double dipper from Dipton' – just another parasite

              • Robert Guyton

                Your aligning Key and Jacinda through their responses to questions in the House is way off the mark, Gezza: Key was a smarmy pr*ck, leveraging opportunities to smear the Opposition at every turn, where Jacinda politely answers challenges from the frustrated Opposition kindly (almost always) and truthfully – this is very frustrating for the Opps, Collins and cohorts, but there you are: she's poles apart from their way and top of the pile; much to their chagrin! 🙂

                • Gezza

                  Either you don’t watch much Question Time or you put your rose-coloured blinkers on when you do.

                  • Robert Guyton

                    I often watch Question Time, Gezza, as I did when Key was PM. I saw him trial various unpleasant provocations/slap-downs/outrages/shitty behaviours; the sorts of things Jacinda does not do.

              • left for dead

                Gezza ….had to look that one up "garrulous,she is.

          • Robert Guyton

            How wrong you are, Gezza! Jacinda forges on, her critics rant and rave but make no ground. She's made of stern stuff.

            • Gezza

              I’m not wrong. You just can’t see it. Too tribal, probly.

            • Gezza, I suspect, is concern trolling!

              • Gezza

                Well, if I was, that would be a first time for me. But I’m not. So maybe just go back to sleep, or at least let sleeping dogs lie & don’t try to pick a fight over an error on your part?

                I am not politically tribal, as I have said here before.

                Although I would not willingly personally take on the life of a poitician, & particularly a Cabinet Minister – one worth their salt, who works hard & long and takes their responsibilities seriously – I have what I consider to be a healthy cynicism for politicians of all shades in all parties.

                And the longer they’ve been in Parliament the more cynical I tend to be about them, particularly if they hadn’t achieved much of note earlier in the careers.

              • Anne

                In this instance I think you are right. I enjoy Gezza's mother nature videos and some of his general comments, but he is oh so wrong about Jacinda.

                She's not perfect (no-one has ever suggested she is) but she is very astute and has an inner steel about her. There are habits of hers that do annoy me but won't go into them here. However most people can see she is one of the most genuine politicians that has been around for some time.

                • Gezza

                  However most people can see she is one of the most genuine politicians that has been around for some time.

                  I’ ve been thinking about that, after you said it. I think you’re probably right. But she’s just a professional pollie, wanted a career in politics.

                  Little probably in it with the aim of making things better for at least union members in NZ. Dunno about Hipkins. Political animal I think, maybe. With Robertson, I think it’s also just his chosen career from some time back. Had his eye on politics.

                  But the measure of all of them will be what lasting good (or ill) they achieve, for NZ as a whole, as a social & economic nation & entity, looking back. And at the moment, take Covid out of the mix, & there’s not a lot of improvement to see yet.

      • Gypsy 2.2.2

        I struggle to figure Ardern out. She is a terrific communicator, is likeable and warm, has built huge political capital. Yet for all that her government has failed by many of it's own measures, and you can add to that much of what now passes as it's response to Covid. Is that down to Ardern's failings, or is she doing her best with a government of limited ability?

        • Jimmy

          John Key surrounded himself with smarter competent people. Jacinda has not. Many ministers Kelvin, Poto, Twyford etc. promoted well beyond their means. This is why they are failing to achieve much.

          • Gypsy

            Thanks Jimmy. If that is the case, I wonder if that is her misreading people's ability, or just a shortage of talent to choose from?

            • left for dead

              Jimmy's right,Labour are short of talent,she has let one or two have a good go,but they fu@k up,take Twyford. I am most disapointed with Ms Russell,had high hopes their,smart educated but turns out to be smartarse and probably educated beyond her intellect,could make mention of others but think that will do for now.

            • Jimmy

              IMO Jacinda has about 3 "heavy lifters" doing the majority of the work.

              Hipkins (who is over worked…if there was another competent person, they should be given Education), Robertson and Little.

              Compare this cabinet to Helen Clark's if you don't want to compare to Nats. Helen also surrounded herself with talent.

          • Robert Guyton

            Nonsense, Jimmy. Key's "smarter competent people" were Brownlie, Smith at al. Unpleasant bullies, skilled at bullsh*tting and bullying. Jacinda's ministers are real-enough people, not pumped-up, Neo-lib bully-boys! You're welcome!

            • Gypsy

              They may be real, but there have been too many who have not delivered. And too many key issues that labour promised to address and have failed.

            • Jimmy

              Well that is your opinion of those ministers but they certainly had more life and business skills (and had even had jobs in the real world!) than many of the current Labour MP's. And I agree, Key did had some not very good ones and he demoted or got rid of them.

          • Blazer

            be clear'-Poto is a huge flop imo.

            Key had plenty of deadweights around him…Parata but one example.

            • Jimmy

              The question to ask yourself is, if you were running a medium sized business or charitable organization or whatever, which Labour MP's would you employ or contract in your business/ organization?

              Eg. We would only employ Poto in the warehouse packing orders. (Hopefully she wouldn't stuff that up).

          • Sure he did – like Paula Bennett, Judith Collins, Stephen Joyce, Gerry Brownlee, and so on. The only fractionally competent minister Key had was Finlayson.

        • alwyn

          For communication to work properly you need to engage your brain before opening your mouth. I'm afraid that when their is nothing to connect to there emerges a great deal of drivel.

    • Tricledrown 2.3

      Bishop is showing the politics of envy while pundits admit there is no one in National who has Jacinda's abilities .

      Likewise John Key had the same abilities and this is why Bishop is showing that in his opinion piece hoping Jacinda resigns throwing in the towel like John Key did leaving the door open for National.

      Otherwise National hasn't got a hope is what he really fears.


      • Robert Guyton 2.3.1

        Jacinda, resign? She won't. 🙂

        • Gezza

          She’s already said beforecthe last election that if she can’t be PM she’ll resign. She has another future roughly mapped out, in all likelihood, expecting probably several offers of lucrative sinecures from offshore.

          • Robert Guyton

            She will remain PM, rest assured.

            • Gezza

              While National’s in the fetid & confused disarray characterised by Collins’s leadership there seems little likelihood the electorate will want to swap out one lot of underachievers for a new lot with many untested newbies & some tired old has beens.

          • Blazer

            ' She has another future roughly mapped out, in all likelihood, expecting probably several offers of lucrative sinecures from offshore.'

            Any evidence for this?

            This is a Natz line .

            • Gezza

              If it IS, the plagiarising beggars are copying me ❗️

              "Any evidence for this?"

              It is my *opinion*. (Big Clue: "In all likelihood".)

              Based on the talkshow she's been on in the US & on her making a fuss of Stephen Colbert.

              Also, (her suggested mentor)

              may provide a clue about another extremely well-paid body that might be interested in offering Ardern a job, which I reckon she'd take.

              • Blazer

                I don't think it is likely at all.

                She is not Helen Clark.

                She has a child and is getting married soon,and indicates she is happy to carry on.

                • Gezza

                  I've never suggested she is talking about quitting if she can still be PM.

                  Not quite sure what your point is in even discussing this?

                  In answer to a direct question, before the last election, would she stay on in Parliament if she was not going to be Prime Minister again, Ardern replied, simply, & quite unequivocally, "No".

                  As to my speculations she would in that situation accept other offers of work, I am convinced that she would & that several offers would be made immediately she quits Parliament, if not before. People travel & take up new jobs with children all the time.

                  Outa here, dude. Enjoy your evening. 🖐🏼

          • Patricia Bremner

            That's it Alwyn, attack the person not the subject. Top marks for diversion.

          • Patricia Bremner

            That comment about being PM was aimed at Winston Peters. The public understood.

          • bwaghorn

            Why the fuck would any ex pm stay after losing???

            Not saying shell lose ,but seriously??

  3. Jenny how to get there 4

    Government being completely irresponsible.

    Auckland to open by Christmas as elimination ends

    Justin Giovannetti | Political editor, The Bulletin, November 18, 2021



    Elimination ends?

    Elimination ended on the 21st of September 2021, when the government, under pressure from business, gave up on their elimination strategys, and replaced it with the Three Step Roadmap out of lockdown.

    Every measure of the government's covid response taken since then, has been part of the 'Three Step Roadmap' plan to open up the economy even as case numbers, hospitalisations, and deaths increase.

  4. Adrian 5

    Bishops diatribe is a manifestation of bitter disappointment and frustration at the rights complete inability to find a leader with two brain cells to rub together. If the charge had any credibility it is blown out of the water by the Ardern Governments leadership of the Covid response to a war like no other in 100 years, and to be at the top of the league table for results in the world. Of course being the father of such a contradictory mess and confused rattleheadedness as his offspring must be galling to say the least.

  5. Rosemary McDonald 6

    New policy for the administration of Covid vaccines to young people 12-17 years in the UK.

    Increase from 4 weeks to 12 weeks between first and second dose.

    12 weeks from natural infection to first dose of vaccine.

    The COVID-19 vaccines are safe and if you or your child has experienced no symptoms of myocarditis then there is no reason to be worried if they had their first dose at less than 12 weeks following infection.

    Anyone who is concerned should be reassured that these side effects occur within a few days of vaccination. Most people recovered and felt better following rest and simple treatments.

    If younger people experience any of the following symptoms after receiving their vaccination, they should call 111 or see their GP:

    • pain and/or tightness in the chest which may spread across the body
    • pain in the neck that may spread across the shoulders and/or arms
    • shortness of breath when lightly exercising or walking
    • difficulty breathing when resting or feeling light-headed
    • flu-like symptoms such as a high temperature, tiredness and fatigue
    • palpitations or an abnormal heart rhythm
    • feeling like you need to be sick

    In younger people, protection from natural infection is likely to be high for at least 3 months so they will be protected against COVID-19 infection for some time,

    I do realise that posting here on TS a link from the JCVI (Clinical advisors to the UK government for vaccination) could cop me another ban but this is very, very important.

    Assuming that the jab enthused give an actual shit about prevent harm…

    • Brigid 6.1

      12 weeks is now considered the preferred period between vaccinations to give optimal protection. For anyone. I waited 8 weeks to have my second dose

      Myocarditis isn't fun but in by far the majority of cases its short lived and easily managed. It's certainly preferable to covid-19.

      • Rosemary McDonald 6.1.1

        Myocarditis isn't fun but in by far the majority of cases its short lived and easily managed.

        Well, yay! for that then.

    • bwaghorn 6.2

      Cheers for the symptoms list, my baby turns 12 next week now I know what to watch for after the jab,

  6. Gypsy 7

    The fact that we have not had the level of cases or mortality of other country's is a combination of geography and plain luck. The response to Covid since alpha has been poor, including failure to adequately address ICU capacity, ongoing problems with MIQ, and it's mismanagement of the saliva testing roll out.

    • Robert Guyton 7.1

      "geography and plain luck" how unkind, Gypsy, and how daft!

    • Ad 7.2

      You are a moron.

      We have exceedingly specific geographic management through the DHB's, and the system is reallocating resource according to need. Re-published every 24 hours, with breakdowns to v small population centres and indeed to census meshblock data.

      ICU capacity is fine according to the Director General of Health as at this morning.

      MIQ is a deliberate control of international access because it is also the same as the disease vector.

      Saliva testing hasn't yet been necessary if you want to move around the country. All you have to do is book, and it's free.

      The rest of our globally-benchmarked success is down to both exceedingly good governmental management from top to bottom, and exceptional public compliance.

    • weka 7.3

      I also think this is a stupid position (or politically motivated). Despite there being problems during a global pandemic within a country wracked by neoliberalism including decades of fuckery with the health system, we've still had relatively few lockdowns, few deaths, fewer long covid cases than if we'd… what exactly?

      • Gypsy 7.3.1

        The case and mortality numbers are low due to luck and geography, primarily. My view is the government responded well in 2020, but then rested on their laurels. The vaccine roll out was too late and too slow, the ability of hospitals to deal with a surge has not be resolved and the debacle around the nasal swab contract, when regular testing is being rolled out in many other first world countries, are just some examples.

        • McFlock

          The only way geography had a significant effect was that we saw Europe fuck it up.

          Italy tried a lockdown after they already had thousands of cases, details got leaked early, and folks had a couple of days to carry the virus all over Europe.

          By contrast, at NZ's first two cases of community transmission, we went straight to L3 and L4 two days later.

          But everything else? Most places could have shut airports and ports of entry if they'd had the will. Some politicians tried to half-arse it or leave it up to personal responsibility, and thousands of their citizens died. those are the major factors.

          We had some luck – Wellington delta tourist comes to mind – but most of it was actually down to competent leadership and coordinated comms. Not perfect, but at least an "A" grade compared to the US/UK "E".

          • Gypsy

            "The only way geography had a significant effect was that we saw Europe fuck it up."
            Nope. We have a massive advantage being an island in terms of controlling who comes in and out of our country. We are also a long way from the most commonly used transport routes.

            "Not perfect, but at least an "A" grade compared to the US/UK "E"."
            Some comparison. I prefer to think how we could have done if we had rolled out the vaccine program earlier, made better decisions around saliva testing and spent some of the 100bn debt we've racked up actually on healthcare.

            • McFlock

              Great Britain is famed for being an island.

              Hong Kong is a major trade route, and has territory on the mainland.

              Then of course there's China itself – big trader, known for not being contained on an island.

              Not to mention many of the African nations with low covid rates, land borders, and healthy trade and transit cargo levels.

              As for grade, you can captain hindsight every step. But how many governments handled it better than NZ, in the real world? And what did they do differently?

              • Gypsy

                " But how many governments handled it better than NZ, in the real world?"
                I guess that depends on how you define 'better'. Comparisons are difficult because of differences in geography, population density, types of government and health systems. And what is the measure – is it health outcomes? Economic outcomes?

                We could us Queensland's data. Similar population to NZ. We've had 9,652 cases, 38 deaths. Q'land have had 2,112 cases and only 7 deaths. Or we could use Ireland, similar population, 516,000 cases and 5609 deaths.

                Rather than cherry pick, I'd rather compare what we've done with what we could have done better. It's not all been bad, but some of it has been.

                • McFlock

                  So what did Queensland do that we didn't and same for Ireland?

                  I will also point out that the difference between 0.7/100k and 0.3/100k is pretty darn close, statistically. Especially when compared to Ireland's 112/100k.

                  When criticising, one can compare against the perfect, or the real world. Captain Hindsight judges against perfection, but in the real world this government deserves to be graded on a curve.

                  • Gypsy

                    "When criticising, one can compare against the perfect, or the real world. "

                    Comparing against the perfect is churlish. Comparing against what was possible, what we could have done better, is how any individual or group should reasonably be assessed or assess itself.

    • Jimmy 7.4

      NZ geography has certainly helped us. We are miles away at the bottom of the world, with a large moat around us. Also, large majority of overseas people come in via Auckland (mostly airport) and sea port. So far fewer points of entry than a European country for example.

      • McFlock 7.4.1

        Britain, for example, doesn't have customs and immigration folk well-distributed across their ports of entry? These ports don't have other staff onsite?

        Of course they do. All they had to do was put up a "closed" sign.

  7. Maurice 8

    Democracy is the theory that the common people know what they want, and deserve to get it good and hard. – H. L. Mencken

    [TheStandard: A moderator moved this comment to Open Mike as being off topic or irrelevant in the post it was made in. Be more careful in future.]

    • Ad 8.1

      This is a post about the kind of state we want.

      You need to do better than quote some irrelevant bon mot.

      • Maurice 8.1.1

        …. but! BUT!

        Borrowed the quote from KiwiBlog!

        • lprent

          That probably explains its complete irrelevance to the post that you stuck it on.

          KB specialises in being shallow and lazy commentators going for the lowest possible common denominator without bothering to engage their brain to explain the relevance of what they are blathering about.

          And also also explains why I pressed the OpenMike button to consign to a post where it was vaguely relevant in.

  8. riffer 9

    The Taxpayers Union seem to be up to all kinds of mischief of late. I did a whois lookup on motherofallprotests.nz on dnc.org.nz

    The registrant contact seems to be different to what has been reported on twitter (taxpayers union) so I dug further and looked up some more information on the NZ entity of The Campaign Company, who were registered on 4 November 2021.


    Both the Director consent form and the Shareholder consent form make for interesting reading.


    Registration Date and Time 04 November 2021 12:17:02

    Document Type Director Consent Form

    Presenter Jordan Henry WILLIAMS

    Po Box 10518

    The Terrace

    Wellington 6143

    New Zealand

    Director Consent Form



  9. riffer 10

    If this is doxxing I will withdraw, apologise and take my lumps for whatever you throw at me. I have only linked to publicly available information.

  10. Brigid 11

    It's not doxing

    It's good investigation which no msm journalist seems capable of

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