Anyone have any useful inside word on why Robertson is taking so long to announce his house-price-cooling mechanisms?
After our emotional binge-purge cycle week of downer Christchurch earthquake and massacre commemorations, followed by Auckland's euphoria about winning the America's Cup, surely this government is now able to throw us some actual policy once more?
Just an opinion but wondering if the government is having to recalibrate its response having spent so much political capital on its handling of Auckland’s yo-yo lockdown and the likelihood of entering a double dip recession at the end of the month.
No – they'll stay the course because it has produced world-leading outcomes, has been very popular and also extremely resistant to being undermined by the "economy first" loons who try to use clever-sounding language like "yo-yo lockdowns" that are really just grotesque (and intentional) over-simplifications of the complexities of pandemic management. In short – "all good".
Well as I've repeatedly stated the reason why NZ tilted so far toward property investment is because the alternatives failed my generation. So when I read this:
Orr noted the need for people to look for “alternative places to invest”.
Given the ever changing situation I'd say they are waiting to see what happens now the rate of returnees and their foreign cash is slowing, and the money from the Covid wage and business support is drying up. Demand side might have had its throat cut.
They've shown they don't want to make decisions on this unless as a last resort because it scares the horses so much whenever anyone suggests tampering with the golden egg of property investment.
It's just Mums and Dads giving it a go, don't you know. They've worked so hard all their lives and deserve to not pay tax on property gains, just like the next man. This is New Zealand, after all.
an issue that is concerning me is the gender self I’d bill.
I think this will mean anyone can change their sex on their birth certificate, no questions asked. I get the process trans people have to go through is very difficult, but that is the nature of their predicament, ie they want to change sex because the sex they were born feels wrong for them.
but the gender self I’d bill opens up entry into women’s domains eg public toilets, for anyone and there is nothing to stop pedofiles, sex offenders and rapists changing their sex to become a woman. Of course these people can choose to transition and go through the process as it is the become a woman, but that in itself is somewhat protective against predictors using it to gain access to women and children.
I do think it is absurd that anyone can change their sex on their birth sex certificate no questions asked and I am interested to hear others views on this.
someone called Grace Miller posted a link with comments from trans activists the other day that showed comments from them saying kill all terfs, really nasty stuff. Grace if you are around can you let me know what country those trans activists were from? I am scared to talk about this issue (not on this forum where I can be anonymous, but in public because of the potential for threats of violence and vitriol
After a decade of being firmly informed that gender is nothing more than a 'social construct' and that human biology is of little to no importance – I must confess to watching the logical conclusion of this ideology being played out both confusing and sad.
if gender is a social construct (which I don’t believe), then that would surely mean that boys who are born male and brought upas boys would remain men, because it’s all socially constructed.
if we support diversity and I do, the men who transition to women are trans women. They have a very different experience and have different biology and still maintain an advantage of strength. The are different from women who are born women, have wombs female anatomy etc. trans women are different from women but different doesn’t mean inferior. It means different. Still worthy as people.
I'm really worried about this too. The idea of a male prisoner/or about to be convicted suddenly declaring himself female to take advantage of being placed with vulerable women turns my stomach as much as a newly identified woman being forced into a male prison. There needs to be a clear demarkation and a pieces of paper don't cut it.
one of the key points to get across to women in particular is that changing the law to make it easier for trans people will impact legally on women, but also socially. i.e. the culture will change as well as the legals. How women are allowed to set boundaries will be challenged. This is already happening overseas. It's complicated further by the push to allow non-binary people into women's spaces even if they are male.
I say get across to women, because most women are supportive of trans rights (rightfully so), and don't realise that there is a conflict of rights here that needs public discussion. And those women are the ones that need to be talking about it before the law changes.
The implications of the changes aren't well understood, in part because of the fast social changes that are happening that most people aren't keeping up with eg male bodied people identifying as women and doing no medical or even social transitioning. This means that any male person will be able to identify as a woman, or even as female, if they choose irrespective of if they are trans or not. It's not simply about official documents, this will be across society. The definition of trans is broadening too.
It's also not well understood because of the intense pressure to suppress debate. People lose their jobs, careers, family and friends over this in the US and the UK.
It's also important to look at the issue as a conflict of rights that needs a resolutio for *both sides. We can uphold the needs and rights of women and trans people, but only imo if we are allowed to talk about it.
Agree with 'look at the issue as a conflict of rights' and we need to be able to have these discussions without the shit-slinging that's been going on.
What really rips my proverbials are headlines like…
Clearly rubbish and fantasyland stuff. Simply calling yourself a man doth not make it true, especially if you choose to suspend the blockers and get pregnant. It seems that for this woman being a man was a lifestyle choice, a passing fad. Unbelievable that such a person could claim on one day to have been 'born into the wrong body'/'assigned the wrong sex at birth', then on a subsequent day employ that same 'wrong' body to do what nature intended of that 'assigned' sex.
We need to put in place protections for the words we use to describe biological sex (woman, female, girl, man, boy, male) and ensure that we all agree on the words that describe gender. And make damn sure that we know there's a difference between the two.
say that on social media and you will be schooled in why it is wrong, and if you persist you will be labelled a terf. If you're famous or have a large reach, you'll mostly likely experience some version of cancel culture. Otoh, the fact that you are a bloke will protect you somewhat. As Sabine said, nothing much has changed.
The bathroom thing gave it away, I would have thought. Some of these labels can be subgroups or included alongside other labels, and signs on toilet doors don't stop the door being used by someone who doesn't suit that sign (from whatever perspective).
Probably the best thing to go would be to make the current process easier. I would also have the birth gender listed on the birth certificate as well, bringing into line with name changes and the legal fiction of adoption.
I do not think changing gender/sex should be as simply as filling in a form online and using your credit/debit card.
Thanks for your perspective everyone. Weka, I know we have had different opinions at times, but I really appreciate your point of view on this issue.
yes women’s voices are being silenced by trans activists, with postings full of vitriol and death threats. In the 70s most men I knew heard our voices about the patriarchy and the impact on us.
so much of the women’s movement has been tied up with our biology. A woman’s right to choice, contraception, the cervical cancer enquiry, maternity leave. Rape of women by men, undervaluing of women’s sports, in part because we are physically weaker.
Mc flook, I take your point about toilets. However as someone who suffered an attempted rape in a public toilet, I am very uncomfortable with any person with male genitalia, male hormones, denser muscle mass and large height/frame being given freedom to enter female toilets. Public toilets are places where we are quite vulnerable.
I know a male friend of mine who is quite tall was told at some sort of men’s group, to be very aware of what it’s like for women who is walking alone. Subsequently he acts accordingly.
I would hope that men who are trans would also bare this in mind
I AM ASKING PEOPLE TO WRITE TO THEIR MPS TO REGISTER THEIR OPPOSITION TO THIS BILL
i have written. I am terrified that my name will be leaked and that I will face a huge backlash. I ll keep you all posted
yes, this is the conflict of rights and needs. In the UK where there are male and female toilets, the female toilets are being converted to gender neutral and the male toilets are being left as is. There's so much bullshit in that that cannot be be wiped away by asserting that trans women need safe spaces too. Obviously they do, but why are women's rights being eroded to do that? You can treat that as a rhetorical question and I'll just quote Sabine again "we are going to end up with two 'somethings' – Men and Others. And nothing much will change."
Most of the gender neutral toilet complaints seem to be that blocks have been divided into toilets vs urinals rather than gender, e.g. the old vic.
The argument seems to be that women can't use the urinals, so they only get 24 spaces vs the men having access to 42 (18 of those being urinals).
Sounds bad, until one reads that the number of toilets was doubled in that reno, and half a dozen of them aren't stuck in the gents.
Also saves front of house staff from trying to shut toilets to men for ten minutes to clear the queue outside the ladies (which was a thing that regularly had to happen at one venue I used to work.)
I mean, the world being what it is there might be places that just swapped the women's sign with "unisex" and left the men's as is. Didn't see any examples, though.
Come to think of it, the toilets in the theatre I'm involved with are unisex and wheelchair accessible. Little rooms with their own sink and door and toilet. No urinals whatsoever.
Great to see this issue getting an airing on here. I think the question is really the government's to answer. And it goes like this. We are being presented with self-id as a trifle. Nothing to worry about. A convenience for males who identify as women (and vice versa) to not have to go through the 'humilation' of having any criteria associated with their decision to be regarded as a woman. But looked at through my eyes is that the government is making the category of woman a contested category – based on a feeling when this has never been the case before.
If women who have had an ontological category to describe themselves – by sex – that has served to lessen and to measure discrimination and to fight for inclusion in mainstream society then how can it possibly be right that that category is nullified without any public discussion and consultation, risk or impact assessment.\? How can it be possible that making the category into a category of self-identification will have zero or inconsequential impacts? Well the answer is it doesn't. If sex as a category is nullifed then doing this without a public consultation or explaining why it's also great for women is surely a fundamental departure from the Bill of Rights Act. Luckily there is a likely solution David Parker is currently putting through legislation to make governments who act against the Bill of Rights subject to a legal remedy. I think women and them men who support them need to take a judicial review on this issue.
Thanks Jan. That sounds a bit more promising than I'd been thinking. Nice summing up too. I'd add that there are two issues here: one the changing of sex as a category and two the suppression of debate. If what's being proposed is such a great idea why can we not talk about it?
Women are beings with very particular 'side effects'. One is we are menstruating, then we fall pregnant and then we give birth.
So we are now 'people who menstruate'.
We are pregnant persons.
And then we go straight to Mum. Lol.
We are 'people, persons, Mums. We are never women. And if someone takes offense at say menstruating people being called people rather then women, they are called all sorts of things. And yet, only biological women will ever menstruate.
but one bit after one bit, the discriptive word of 'women' is replaces by 'people, persons, others, but we are no longer mentioned as women. This however is not happening to men. And that is an issue, and the reason to me is simply not to elevate trans men or trans women, but to disapear and muddle us into one group. That will be the other group of, women, trans, disabled, others. All with less rights then men of course.
In the french language men are “il” and women are ‘elle’. So a group of women doing something would be ‘Elles sont/font’ etc, and a group of men is Ils sont, Il font etc. But if there is one man in a group of women they suddenly become ‘ils’.
Funny how that always works out in eradicating women as a group of people with their own set of identifiers and needs.
i have not menstruated since my womb was cut out due to cancer, but i would still call myself a women. Is that what you are talking about? Or are you talking about transwomen? I would call them women too, but again, that is just me.
I really don't care about any such thing, if you want me to care about some stuff that some feminists or not feminists thought in the previous decades you must link to it for me to read so that i can understand where your thinking comes from, or else your comment is again just a wee little snark/reminder as to please define your view of women as a women and what consists of women. Besides, there are a heep of older women past meno pause who also don't bleed anymore, and i guess you would still call them women?
But the only people on this planet to menstruate, or get pregnant are still women. Not people, not persons, not anything else but biological women. So others maybe want to keep that in mind when they try to play gotcha games as to what is or is not a women. We are fairly easily identified.
I would. I cannot remember the whole reading list for the introductory Feminist Studies paper led by Rosemary Novitz at Canterbury University in the late 1980s but it was pretty comprehensive at the time. Some thinking seems to have done a 180 since.
i was told at fifteen that women will get married and have children and thus don't need education. 🙂 – very early 80s.
Nothing has changed. We are still where we were then. It is just that those that are women, disabled, queer, trans, of color, intersex, they/them etc are all now 'other/people/persons/'. Rather then their own thing.
And all the 'others' will have the same few rights they had before. Only as much as they are granted by the ruling class who really don't care what you and i identify as. We are either cost centres, or profit centers. And once we internalise and understand that we may actually get the conversation to where it needs to be, what it means to be human, Ein Mensch sein, erst, und dann die eigen gemachte Idenditaet.
"I remember feminists of past decades strongly resisting defining gender by biology."
Feminists have rightly resisted biological determinism, which is an ideology that says because (only) women can bear children this is what they are for, or must do (the GCF view is that gender is wholly a construct designed to control the reproductive labour of women for the purposes of power holding men. I don't agree fully with that, but their philosophy does bring things into start contrast).
Also, the word gender can mean sex or gender ID, I'm not sure which you meant.
Acknowledging the reality of biological sex isn't biological determinism. We don't have to define women solely by biology, but biology is a core component of being female. This is why my position is that trans women are trans women. I'm good with trans women defining themselves as a separate class from men, as well as understanding how they differ from women.
Gender never meant the same as sex when I studied. One was biological and the other socially constructed. It was the only useful way to describe the variety of ways women experienced different cultures around the world.
It intrigues me how you try to define this an issue between "women" and "them men who support them" (sic) presumably against the rest of men when there are many cis women feminists driving change. These discussions mostly present to me as a split within Feminism.
yes, there's definitely a split within feminism. And the left.
Jan was saying that the women who aren't ok with self-ID being introduced without even talking to women about it (and the men who support those women) will be able to take legal action.
"I think women and them men who support them need to take a judicial review on this issue."
Do you think Jan means literally all women, or that she means the women who object to self-ID? Because if you think the former, you're doing #notallwhatever, and that would just be naff.
it is actually. The GCF central position is that exactly (not sure where Jan fits into that specifically). This doesn't mean all women agree, but it's a coherent and consistent political argument. You can disagree with that (feel free to make the argument), but it's not helpful to misrepresent their views.
I think you are. Jan can say what she meant, but imo you are saying she is trying to obscure the fact that women/feminists are divided over the issue (I don't think she is, I think you are reading something that isn't there). You also said her framing was wrong, I disagree, I think her framing is consistent with GCFs views.
What is a cis woman? Who coined this term? I am a women. End of story.
I hear trans women saying they are real women. Guess what, I have never thought of my self as a real women. I am a women. I was born female because I had female sex genetalia, which is because I have XX chromosome. Men have an XY chromosome. There are some very rare exceptions.
By allowing any man to change their sexual identity on their birth certificate worries me greatly. Whoever the women who support this are, they have failed to understand that this will mean there is nothing to prevent, rapists, sex offenders and paedophiles from changing their birth certificate to say they are women. If you can't see this is a problem, then please re-think it through.
Women who support this change cannot be aware of the radical trans activists and the bullying that has been going on when women speak up on this issue in the UK and the US.
Men wanting to be women, isn't women's problem. We have enough to contend with as it is.
And by the way when I have met trans men or women I have always been pleasant and respectful as I do when I meet any new people.
Self-ID will give a legitimacy to men in women's spaces that doesn't currently exist. That men already abuse those boundaries is not a good reason to open the boundaries and give them a way to have a free pass. I don't think the issue is the birth certificate so much as the social/cultural change that is happening as legal self-ID is brought in. It's already getting hard for women to run women's only spaces. There are activists in the UK who want all sex based rights removed at the legal level. That's not only about trans people, that affects everyone. Men of course are generally less concerned about that change than women.
Self-ID will give a legitimacy to men in women's spaces that doesn't currently exist. That men already abuse those boundaries is not a good reason to open the boundaries and give them a way to have a free pass.
no, I'm saying that non-trans males will take advantage of self-ID.
There are additional issues around TW access to women's spaces that are segregated on the basis of sex not gender. And non-binary males, there seems to be this idea that they should have access to women's spaces too, which I've yet to see a good explanation for.
for example, there's a general increasing problem with men videoing women in changing rooms and toilets (as tech make this easier to do). In the UK department stores have started saying that men who ID as women can use the women's changing rooms. Do I really need to explain how this increases access for offenders?
that would be up to them. Where it conflicts with other groups' rights, then there needs to be discussion about how to manage that (rather than the the suppression of discussion that's been going on for years now).
I can see TW and women sharing some spaces for instance, and then each group also having sex segregated space. The problem currently is the dismissal of women's rights and needs and the dismissal of biological sex category as important.
Oh, so you are only disrespectful when you write online. Denying somebody's identity is about as disrespectful as it comes. There are good reasons why this subject generates anger.
I see the transgender thing as basically where the homosexual thing was forty years ago. Back then there was still a significant number of people who still believed that homosexuality did not really exist as sexuality and that it was only a fetish or a mental illness that needed therapy. Most people today accept the fact that some people are gay and that is just the way it is. When the likes of Brian Tamaki roll out that bigotry now most people roll their eyes, have a bit of a laugh, and carry on.
There is a lot more to human biology than genitals and chromosomes. Brains are also biological.
This latest restatement of old arguments over the last few days is very tiring. Been generally trying to limit my exposure this time, on the basis that it's the last blast before the legislation changes. It's the anti-smacking thing all over again, I'm hoping.
False equivalence mcflook and whoever suggested it the homosexual law (which I have always supported). I don’t think the majority of women have been consulted about this at all.
also from what I have seen women who have contested it get taken down with death threats and vitriol.
It’s a bit nearer, although not the same ifI decided I was a different ethnicity, say Maori. If I really felt that was my identity. I don’t think that would be accepted. My partner is Maori and while I am Whanau I am pakeha, definitely not part of the tribe.
Because trans activists don't get death threats and vitriol?
The other day a NZ trans woman I follow on twitter was talking about how a NZ "gender critical" organisation had linked to people doxxing her. So it goes both ways.
As for the level of consultation all around, keep telling yourself that – it's a common refrain for the less popular side. Don't worry, as the legislation nears, it's tailor made for the nats to go consulting all over the place. Get a really good rabble going. The Tamakis will do their part, too.
Then we'll see if "most" people still give a damn.
It means publicising someone's personal information, especially on a forum where the only reasonable expectation is harrassment of the person, their family, and their employer.
And no, I'm not going to name names, because that would:
A) simply continue the damage caused by that organisation's actions; and
B) be irrelevant to the main point that this stuff happens in both directions.
ironically, it's tedious as fuck having left wing men still and again telling women how to do our own politics. Calling us bigots might be new, but the lack of support when it doesn't suit the menz isn't. I guess what's also new is that it's so up front now, but it still beggars belief and I’d love to hear an explanation of the progressive philosophy that trans people are entitled to equity and justice but women suddenly aren’t.
I'd really encourage you to follow some of the left wing GCFs on twitter. I don't have a good sense of how this is going to play out in NZ, because we're very different than the UK, but the first thing to understand is that there are progressive women with strong class analysis who are saying, hang on, there are issues here. Many of them were previously very supportive of trans issues.
And yes, the right will play this like an easy fiddle. This is going to harm the left at time when we really can't afford it.
I follow one or two. But as soon as shit like "men dressed as women" comes out, the follow stops. Turns out that really thins the number of follows.
Sure, I've chosen a side. I made the best call I could. My own position has evolved. I've listened to trans women and trans men (like the ones mocked in this thread), I've read and reread the more considered responses of some GCFs. I've been to talks from paediatricians talking about how to engage with and treat trans youth. I've listened to the parents of trans kids, and their journey.
I'm not an expert, but neither is this just a trivial knee-jerk position I've taken with zero thought.
And I speak on the topic because it's been requested, as an indication they're not alone.
Ok, I was wanting to check that you didn't feel I had been mocking because that is not what I intend. I realise I probably don't have the right language for these discussions.
I think its fine for you to put your point of view across as a man. You have obviously put a lot of time into finding out stuff.
However, I think the voices of women need to be heard and prioritized.
I think Weka has framed it quite well. That Trans women and women who were born and raised as women and have internalized very different
messages about themselves and their identity need to be prioritized. You will never know what it's like to live with the fear that we face everyday and live with our bodies. That is our experience.
I also want to let you know how the language being used about women in some quarters, wherever it comes from, I find de humanizing. People with vaginas, people who are menstruaters, Terfs, Cis women.
Terfs is a perjorative term, meant to shut down and stigmatize women who have a different point of view.
You may have been going through this debate for some time, but I am knew to it. My main objection is the gender self id bill and the language being used about women with the xx chromosomes biology. As I said I find this dehumanizing and frankly insulting.
No, as far as I can see you haven't been mocking anyone at all.
I certainly have no idea about the extent of your lived experience. Just as I have no idea about the extent of the lived experiences of trans people who have been assaulted because of their trans status as well as those dangers that face their transitioned gender.
Some of the terms used are malicious or dismissive. I have tried to get away from using "terf", for example, even though the only term in the acronym that seems like it might be inappropriate in some instances is "radical". But that's the call and using that term isn't conducive to productive discussion, so it's an adaptation I need to make. "Gender critical", on the other hand, seems to me to be far to… sterile? It sort of reduces the position to an abstract debate on identity, rather than the desired outcome of stating who should use what door and the ability to confront and humiliate someone who doesn't seem to match the label.
I've always viewed "cis" as simply meaning "not queer" (i.e. non-LGBTQITFTvTs…). Mostly as a tool for describing my own perspective, what I have experience of and not. "Cis man" basically replaces a massive paragraph.
The thing about XX chromosome biology is that not every woman has it. Sure, dramatic cases might be very rare indeed, but they exist in NZ. Often having been crudely "corrected" by surgery as infants. I've met some of them. Making biological sex binary in order to debate transsexual issues is simply repeating the assumption that led to those surgeries. It strikes me as paradoxical to ignore someone else's existence in order to protect one's own identity.
I have a lot of time for you and Weka. I do try to take on board your comments, with possible exceptions if I'm tired/grumpy/having a stupid day (for those instances, I apologise).
yeah I find the men in dresses thing both bigoted and really unhelpful to discussion. Unfortunately the definition of trans being broadened so that it does now cover men in dresses (cross dressing men rather than say males with gender dysphoria or males with a strong sense of femaleness internally to the point of identity), or the male prisoners trying to ID their way out of male prisons or into women's prisons. I cut the GCFs some slack on this because on twitter shorthand is often a necessity, and many of those women tried for years to talk more evenhandedly and have given up. But there are plenty of bigots in GCF and GC twitter.
Especially confusing as trying to negotiate social mores can make transvesticism(sp?) as sort of "cover story" for someone who wishes to fully transition – Eddie Izzard comes to mind.
The prison thing is definitely a problem, but it's a security problem. If someone's a danger to other prisoners, as shown by their history, don't put them with vulnerable prisoners. Doesn't matter if they're in the same building.
Actually Solkta, I feel the gender self I’d proposed law disrespects my identity.
I am a woman. I have a woman’s body. I have XX chromosomes. I once menstruated, had children, have female hormones, went through menopause, am a smaller stature than men and this is all part. Of who I am. So too is my personality. I talk more than men, because overwhelmingly women use more words that men. I have been socialised to think more about relationships and be more empathetic. The proposed bill tells me that is irrelevant cause any man can be a woman. They don’t have to transition. AsJan said earlier that nullifies what being a woman is and I find that very hurtful.
What did I say that denied anyone’s identity? I know there are people who feel they are the wrong sex and want to transition.
Sacha why sex offenders might want to bothe changing their sex on their birth certificate so that when the go to prison, they go to a women’s prison. Or they get to be in a women’s ward in a hospital. Or can’t be challenged when they use female toilets, or get to go to female only workout areas in gyms, saunas, changing rooms. There would be a lot of secondary gain for these men.
but it’s not really the point. I feel my identity as a women is under attack. My biology is being reduced to being a menstruater or a person with a vagina. If I raise concerns about this I am called a reef. I am being told I am a cis woman. Where did this term come from? I didn’t agree to it. I have huge concerns that men will use the gender I’d bill for secondary gain. I read of the experience of women and lesbians overseas being canceled, losing their jobs, having the nastiest vitriol thrown at them. It’s happened here too, someone I know participated in an event stand up for women event and on her fb page someone wrote I hope you die.
I also experienced a very nasty assault on a public changing room. I want to preserve those spaces for women.
so no not a lot of peace for me.
And actually I feel for people who are transitioning. And people who are in men’s bodies who identify as women I will respect that when I come across them. But I don’t support the idea that they change the sex on their birth certificate. No questions asked.
I am taking your comment about my assault is genuine. Thank you.
"Your question "was it by a man?" I must say has a bit of a gotcha feel.
But anyway I will do my best to answer. The person who attempted to rape me was of male statute and had a male voice, wore male clothing. I assumed he was a man, although he wore a white mask with black line drawn on it. I am pretty sure he had male genitalia because when I tried to hit him in the balls, I felt what I think was his testicle. He then punched in me in the face. The adrenalin was really pumping in my body and so I tried to pull his mask off. That is when he panicked and struggled to keep it on. While that was happening I managed to escape.
The idea of people being able to self id as women, no questions asked,and legitimately be in a change room or womans toilet terrifies me. If you believe that some men who are sex offenders want try and do that and have legitimate access to women and girls getting changed then I don't think that is considering women.
I
If you think not having the gender self id bill will mean transitioning women can't change their birth certificate at some point, then that is incorrect too.
The tourism industry was the focus of two speeches by ministers yesterday, one a pathway to the future, and the other a cautionary tale from the recent past.
Resetting and rebuilding tourism to be more sustainable, as the industry cannot simply return to business as usual.
Ensuring Aotearoa is seen as one of the world’s most aspirational travel destinations.
Recognising that costs and negative impacts associated with tourism must be mitigated or priced into the visitor experience so ratepayers and taxpayers are not bearing the cost of hosting visitors
More partnership between the government and the tourism industry, including with businesses and workers.
Mr Nash said the industry could not return to the status quo, but that would not mean hard-hit communities would be left behind.
"Regions heavily reliant on international tourism, dare I say it overly reliant on international tourism, should have a range of alternatives, because we don’t want to be in this situation again," he said.
Probably not what a lot of operators who didn't see this disruption coming wanted to hear, especially those who had been appropriating the commons and domestic products to sell at profit to the highest payer. But also what many operators and communities have wanted to see for a long time.
Meanwhile Damien O'Conner was talking to farmers at the Field Day in Fielding. In it he presented a cautionary tale about not getting too cocky during the good times and then getting caught out in the inevitable downturn. Sounds like he was pretty blunt. He hits the nail on the head here.
Export sectors had to realise that they faced risks and needed to be humble, he said.
“While we had warning signals through Sars of the possibility of pandemics and interruptions to international travel, it probably wasn't built into their business models,”
The response from National's David Bennett was apoplectic
National's agriculture spokesman David Bennett, who was at the event, said O’Connor’s comments about the tourism industry were “disgusting”.
“The borders are closed through Government policy which they have no control over,” Bennett said.
“They have been asking for a bubble with Australia for months and the Government hasn't acted, and then he blames the sector for getting cocky, it's disgusting, it shows he has no regard for what business is like.”
Mr Bennett, businesses don't plan to fail, they fail to plan. Which is what happened to a lot in tourism. These comments typify the National approach to business planning, when things go wrong, Government handout. Seems rather strange that the pretty communists are now the party of individual and business responsibility.
Well looking at the panic last year, we can honestly state that the Government also failed to include any pandemic planning into their plans. Sadly the tax payer will always bail out the government and with it these Suits who in their life have no idea what the fuck they are actually talking about.
“While we had warning signals through Sars of the possibility of pandemics and interruptions to international travel, it probably wasn't built into their business models,”
This applies to the Government too.
Btw, so we let tourism industry die – unless its rich lister coming to a rich listers event paid for by tax dollars.
then we let the horticulturist die, after all i guess the minister can buy his fruit n wine from overseas, after all he is on a 200.000 dollar wage a year + perks and for that he don't have to do anything other then blame businesses for a locked up country and world.
Who next? Who next do we not need to help because they should have two years of wages, of leases, of taxes, of licensing fees, and other compliance costs tucked away?
I remember well over thirty years ago, taking leaflets from Uyghur activists, reading them and over the years wondering why the various New Zealand governments had never mentioned these poor people and their plight while we were all being encouraged to consume..no gorge ourselves on cheaply made goods of every description that we all well knew where often being manufactured in the most appalling of condition and often by children….from China our shining new trading partner…thanks Labour and Helen Clark!
…cut to 2021, China now is a world super power, many of it's children who for the past thirty years have been diligently studying at western universities throughout the world have now returned home, in the twinkling of an eye China now not only has the largest manufacturing capacity in the world, it now also has the trained intellectual power to exploit it, next minute China has 5G technology and all that implies.
And how has the west reacted to this new power base threatening their corporate monopolies, well one way it seems is to suddenly become aware of the plight of the Uyghur's, not because any western power base gives even the slightest flying fuck about the Uyghur's, no of course they have cynically co-opted this story only to whip up anti Chinese sentiment among their lazy thinking citizens.
Unfortunately for the Uyghur, their new allies will only in the end sully and muddy the waters in the fight for their rightful cause….as I have said many times here "if you lay down with dogs you get up with fleas", though that being said I have no idea how much control the Uyghur have over who represents them on the world stage?
This article make sobering reading….
The ‘Independent’ Report Claiming Uyghur Genocide
'It was brought to you by a sham university and neocon ideologues lobbying to punish China for U.S. interests.'
…reading Adrian's comment he doesn't seem to be questioning that abuse of Urghurs occurs..it reads to me more like an observation of what we are willing to ignore when it suits our wallet…and how the second our stock exchange and supposed intellectual superiority falters we're more than happy to listen to crazy homophobes on a mission from God…whos research is based on cherry picked spread sheets…good causes being co opted for the wrong reasons is always problematic, because you can be sure, should the tide change this issue (and the Urghurs) will be dropped like a hot potato…as for "independent journos and investigators" I absolutely agree..unfortunately I'm not sure there are any that would meet the particular requirements and agendas of our western world leaders..
"His widely-cited reports were not published in peer-reviewed journals overseen by academic institutions, but rather, by a D.C.-based CIA cut-out called the Jamestown Foundation and “The Journal of Political Risk,” a publication headed by former NATO and U.S. national security state operatives."..from Adrians link…in the unlikely event you didn't read it.
from wiki…"A 2019 article in Frankfurter Allgemeine Zeitung (a liberal-conservative German newspaper) described Zenz's research methods on Tibetans as unconventional and exciting little interest in the professional world."
Interesting how often it's decided that because we disagree with someone on one thing (eg their views on same sex relationships), we therefore conclude everything else they say must be wrong.
In other words leaping from 'Zenz is a bit of an extremist' to 'there isn't anything untoward happening in Xinjiang' is not an argument.
The entire matter can be readily settled as I implied above – open, trusted investigation.
"The entire matter can be readily settled as I implied above – open, trusted investigation."
Aahh yeah, that was the entire point of my comment… now that US/Western corporate/govts/media have got involved for all the wrong reasons (seriously, do you think any of them give a shit about the Uyghur people?), and that they, as the investigation I linked to above quite clearly shows, immediately muddy the waters using their modus operandi of misinformation, propaganda and half truths, so having a "open, trusted investigation" on this subject becomes more and more difficult.
Ultra-gammon and workplace bully, Jeremy Clarkson, underlines his own and his followers fading relevancy by revving up in The Sun about Meghan Markle.
So fragile are they, the belief is she is trying to take down the monarchy. This mirrors the complaints from the alt-right the world over. That any challenge to white patriarchal dominance is to be crushed.
I think she just wants to shine a light on the arcane structure of monarchistic Britain in the hope it will sometime get with the 21st Century.
In claiming Markle will soon be on a Playboy's yacht, Clarkson has Diana-ised her. Perhaps he wishes her dead in a high speed car crash too…
The YouGov poll data also says that since the interview Harry's overall favourability rating has gone negative for the first time ever. Suggesting that the UK public is probably more alt-right than you think and don't appreciate woke ideas infiltrating their institutions.
Major strawberry grower Perrys Berrys calls it quits amid labour shortage.
Sorry, Francie, you've had 12 months to come up with a plan to get your strawberries picked by locals. But you were waiting on the government to deliver foreign workers to you, cheap, like you always had.
Question is, why in your eyes are local workers not as good as foreign workers? Such a mystery…
Question is, why in your eyes are local workers not as good as foreign workers?
Perhaps the locals will still be around dealing with the rashes long after the harvest is done. I once did a stint at commercial strawberry picking. Wondered why some of the other pickers were wearing gloves and masks. Soon found out.
This may be rhetorical but here goes: did any of you invest in the $Libra memecoin endorsed and backed by Argentine president and darling of the global Right Javier Milei (who admitted to being paid a fee for his promotion of the token)? You know, the one that soared above ...
Last week various of the great and good of New Zealand economics and public policy trooped off to Hamilton (of all places) for the annual Waikato Economics Forum, one of the successful marketing drives of university’s Vice-Chancellor. My interest was in the speeches delivered by the Minister of Finance and ...
The Prime Minister says the Government would be open to sending peacekeepers to Ukraine if a ceasefire was reached. The government has announced a $30 million spend on tourism infrastructure and biodiversity projects, including $11m spent to improve popular visitor sites and further $19m towards biodiversity efforts. A New Zealand-born ...
This post by Nicolas Reid was originally published on Linked in. It is republished here with permission.In this article I look into data on how well the rail network serve New Zealanders, and how many people might be able to travel by train… if we ran more than a ...
Hi,Before we get into Hayden Donnell’s new column about how yes, Donald Trump is definitely the Antichrist, I wanted to touch on something feral that happened in New Zealand last week.Members of Destiny Church pushed and punched their way into an Auckland library, apparently angry it was part of Pride ...
Despite delays, logjams and overcrowding in our emergency departments, funding constraints are limiting the numbers of nurses and doctors being trained. Photo: Lynn Grieveson / The KākāLong stories short, the top six things in Aotearoa’s political economy around housing, climate and poverty on Tuesday, February 18 are:A NZ Herald investigation ...
Now that the US has ripped up the Atlantic alliance, Europe is more vulnerable now than at any time since the mid-1930s. Apparently, Europe and Ukraine itself will not have a seat at the table in the talks between US President Donald Trump and Russian leader Vladimir Putin that will ...
Olivia and Noah and Hana are going to the library!It is fun to go to the library. It has books and songs and mat time and people who smile at you and say, Hello Olivia, what have you been doing this morning?The library is more fun than the mall. At ...
New World Orders: The challenge facing Christopher Luxon and Chris Hipkins is how to keep their small and vulnerable nation safe and stable in a world whose economic and political climate the forty-seventh American president is changing so profoundly.IT IS, SURELY, the ultimate Millennial revenge fantasy. Calling senior Baby-Boomer and Gen-X ...
“This might surprise you, Laurie, but I reckon Trump’s putting on a bloody impressive performance.”“GOODNESS ME, HANNAH, just look at all those Valentine’s Day cards!”“Occupational hazard, Laurie, the more beer I serve, the more my customers declare their undying love!”“Crikey! I had no idea business was so good.” Laurie squinted ...
In 2005, Labour repealed the long-standing principle of birthright citizenship in Aotearoa. Why? As with everything else Labour does, it all came down to austerity: "foreign mothers" were supposedly "coming to this country to give birth", and this was "put[ting] pressure on hospitals". Then-Immigration Minister George Hawkins explicitly gave this ...
And I just hope that you can forgive usBut everything must goAnd if you need an explanation, nationThen everything must goSongwriters: James Dean Bradfield / Sean Anthony Moore / Nicholas Allen Jones.Today, I’d like to talk about a couple of things that happened over the weekend:Brian Tamaki’s Library Invasion and ...
New reporting highlights how Brooke van Velden refuses to meet with the CTU but is happy to meet with fringe Australian-based unions. Van Velden is pursuing reckless changes to undermine the personal grievance system against the advice of her own officials. Engineering New Zealand are saying that hundreds of engineers ...
The NZCTU strongly supports the Employment Relations (Employee Remuneration Disclosure) Amendment Bill. This Bill represents a positive step towards addressing serious issues around unlawful disparities in pay by protecting workers’ rights to discuss their pay and conditions. This Bill also provides welcome support for helping tackle the prevalent gender and ...
Years of hard work finally paid off last week as the country’s biggest and most important transport project, the City Rail Link reached a major milestone with the first test train making its way slowly though the tunnels for the first time. This is a fantastic achievement and it is ...
Engineers are pleading for the Government to free up funds to restart stalled projects. File Photo: Lynn Grieveson / The KākāLong stories short, the top six things in Aotearoa’s political economy around housing, climate and poverty on Monday, February 17 are:Engineering New Zealand CEO Richard Templer said yesterday hundreds of ...
It’s one of New Zealand’s great sustaining myths: the spirit of ANZAC, our mates across the ditch, the spirit of Earl’s Court, Antipodeans united against the world. It is also a myth; it is not reality. That much was clear from a series of speakers, including a former Australian Prime ...
Many people have been unsatisfied for years that things have not improved for them, some as individuals, many more however because their families are clearly putting in more work, for less money – and certainly far less purchase on society. This general discontent has grown exponentially since the GFC. ...
A listing of 34 news and opinion articles we found interesting and shared on social media during the past week: Sun, February 9, 2025 thru Sat, February 15, 2025. This week's roundup is again published soleley by category. We are still interested in feedback to hone the categorization, so if ...
The Salvation Army’s State of the Nation report shows worsening food poverty and housing shortages mean more than 400,000 people now need welfare support, the highest level since the 1990s. Photo: Lynn Grieveson / The KākāLong stories short, the top six things in our political economy around housing, climate and ...
You're just too too obscure for meOh you don't really get through to meAnd there's no need for you to talk that wayIs there any less pessimistic things to say?Songwriters: Graeme DownesToday, I thought we’d take a look at some of the most cringe-inducing moments from last week, but don’t ...
Please note: I’ve delayed my “What can we do?” article for this video.The video above shows Destiny Church members assaulting staff and librarians as they pushed through to a room of terrified parents and young children.It was posted to social media last night.But if you read Sinead Boucher’s Stuff, you ...
Skeptical Science is partnering with Gigafact to produce fact briefs — bite-sized fact checks of trending claims. You can submit claims you think need checking via the tipline. Is sea level rise exaggerated? Sea levels are rising at an accelerating rate, not stagnating or decreasing. Warming global temperatures cause land ice ...
Here is a scenario, but first a historical parallel. Hitler and the Nazis could well have accomplished everything that they wanted to do within German borders, including exterminating Jews, so long as they confined their ambitious to Germany itself. After all, the world pretty much sat and watched as the ...
I’ve spent the last couple of days in Hamilton covering Waikato University’s annual NZ Economics Forum, where (arguably) three of the most influential people in our political economy right now laid out their thinking in major speeches about the size and role of Government, their views on for spending, tax ...
Simeon Brown’s Ideology BentSimeon Brown once told Kiwis he tries to represent his deep sense of faith by interacting “with integrity”.“It’s important that there’s Christians in Parliament…and from my perspective, it’s great to be a Christian in Parliament and to bring that perspective to [laws, conversations and policies].”And with ...
Severe geological and financial earthquakes are inevitable. We just don’t know how soon and how they will play out. Are we putting the right effort into preparing for them?Every decade or so the international economy has a major financial crisis. We cannot predict exactly when or exactly how it will ...
Questions1. How did Old Mate Grabaseat describe his soon-to-be-Deputy-PM’s letter to police advocating for Philip Polkinghorne?a.Ill-advisedb.A perfect letterc.A letter that will live in infamyd.He had me at hello2. What did Seymour say in response?a.What’s ill-advised is commenting when you don’t know all the facts and ...
NZCTU Te Kauae Kaimahi President Richard Wagstaff has called on OJI Fibre Solutions to work with the government, unions, and the community before closing the Kinleith Paper Mill. “OJI has today announced 230 job losses in what will be a devastating blow for the community. OJI needs to work with ...
NZCTU Te Kauae Kaimahi President Richard Wagstaff is sounding the alarm about the latest attack on workers from Minister of Workplace Relations and Safety Brooke van Velden, who is ignoring her own officials to pursue reckless changes that would completely undermine the personal grievance system. “Brooke van Velden’s changes will ...
Hi,When I started writing Webworm in 2020, I wrote a lot about the conspiracy theories that were suddenly invading our Twitter timelines and Facebook feeds. Four years ago a reader, John, left this feedback under one of my essays:It’s a never ending labyrinth of lunacy which, as you have pointed ...
And if you said this life ain't good enoughI would give my world to lift you upI could change my life to better suit your moodBecause you're so smoothAnd it's just like the ocean under the moonOh, it's the same as the emotion that I get from youYou got the ...
Aotearoa remains the minority’s birthright, New Zealand the majority’s possession. WAITANGI DAY commentary see-saws manically between the warmly positive and the coldly negative. Many New Zealanders consider this a good thing. They point to the unexamined patriotism of July Fourth and Bastille Day celebrations, and applaud the fact that the ...
The podcast above of the weekly ‘Hoon’ webinar for paying subscribers on Thursday night features co-hosts & talking about the week’s news with regular and special guests, including: and on the week in geopolitics, including the latest from Donald Trump’s administration over Gaza and Ukraine; on the ...
Up until now, the prevailing coalition view of public servants was that there were simply too many of them. But yesterday the new Public Service Commissioner, handpicked by the Luxon Government, said it was not so much numbers but what they did and the value they produced that mattered. Sir ...
In a moment we explore the question: What is Andrew Bayly wanting to tell ACC, and will it involve enjoying a small wine tasting and then telling someone to fuck off? But first, for context, a broader one: What do we look for in a government?Imagine for a moment, you ...
As expected, Donald Trump just threw Ukraine under the bus, demanding that it accept Russia's illegal theft of land, while ruling out any future membership of NATO. Its a colossal betrayal, which effectively legitimises Russia's invasion, while laying the groundwork for the next one. But Trump is apparently fine with ...
A ballot for a single member's bill was held today, and the following bill was drawn: Employment Relations (Collective Agreements in Triangular Relationships) Amendment Bill (Adrian Rurawhe) The bill would extend union rights to employees in triangular relationships, where they are (nominally) employed by one party, but ...
This is a guest post by George Weeks, reviewing a book called ‘How to Fly a Horse’ by Kevin AshtonBook review: ‘How to Fly a Horse’ by Kevin Ashton (2015) – and what it means for Auckland. The title of this article might unnerve any Greater Auckland ...
This story was originally published by Capital & Main and is part of Covering Climate Now, a global journalism collaboration strengthening coverage of the climate story. Within just a week, the sheer devastation of the Los Angeles wildfires has pushed to the fore fundamental questions about the impact of the climate crisis that have been ...
In this world, it's just usYou know it's not the same as it wasSongwriters: Harry Edward Styles / Thomas Edward Percy Hull / Tyler Sam JohnsonYesterday, I received a lovely message from Caty, a reader of Nick’s Kōrero, that got me thinking. So I thought I’d share it with you, ...
In past times a person was considered “unserious” or “not a serious” person if they failed to grasp, behave and speak according to the solemnity of the context in which they were located. For example a serious person does not audibly pass gas at Church, or yell “gun” at a ...
Long stories short, the top six things in Aotearoa’s political economy around housing, climate and poverty on Thursday, February 13 are:The coalition Government’s early 2024 ‘fiscal emergency’ freeze on funding, planning and building houses, schools, local roads and hospitals helped extend and deepen the economic and jobs recession through calendar ...
For obvious reasons, people feel uneasy when the right to be a citizen is sold off to wealthy foreigners. Even selling the right to residency seems a bit dubious, when so many migrants who are not millionaires get turned away or are made to jump through innumerable hoops – simply ...
A new season of White Lotus is nearly upon us: more murder mystery, more sumptuous surroundings, more rich people behaving badly.Once more we get to identify with the experience of the pampered tourist or perhaps the poorly paid help; there's something in White Lotus for all New Zealanders.And unlike the ...
In 2016, Aotearoa shockingly plunged to fourth place in the Transparency International Corruption Perceptions Index. Nine years later, and we're back there again: New Zealand has seen a further slip in its global ranking in the latest Corruption Perceptions Index (CPI). [...] In the latest CPI New Zealand's score ...
1. You’ve started ranking your politicians on how much they respect the rule of law2. You’ve stopped paying attention to those news publications3. You’ve developed a sudden interest in a particular period of history4. More and more people are sounding like your racist, conspiracist uncle.5. Someone just pulled a Nazi ...
Transforming New Zealand: Brian EastonBrian Easton will discuss the above topic at 2/57 Willis Street, Wellington at 5:30pm on Tuesday 26 February at 2/57 Willis Street, WellingtonThe sub-title to the above is "Why is the Left failing?" Brian Easton's analysis is based on his view that while the ...
Salvation Army’s State of the Nation 2025 report highlights falling living standards, the highest unemployment rates since the 1990s and half of all Pacific children going without food. There are reports of hundreds if not thousands of people are applying for the same jobs in the wake of last year’s ...
Mountain Tui is a reader-supported publication. To receive new posts and support my work, consider becoming a free or paid subscriber.Correction: On the article The Condundrum of David Seymour, Luke Malpass conducted joint reviews with Bryce Wilkinson, the architect of the Regulatory Standards Bill - not Bryce Edwards. The article ...
Tomorrow the council’s Transport, Resilience and Infrastructure Committee meet and agenda has a few interesting papers. Council’s Letter of Expectation to Auckland Transport Every year the council provide a Letter of Expectation to Auckland Transport which is part of the process for informing AT of the council’s priorities and ...
All around in my home townThey're trying to track me down, yeahThey say they want to bring me in guiltyFor the killing of a deputyFor the life of a deputySongwriter: Robert Nesta Marley.Support Nick’s Kōrero today with a 20% discount on a paid subscription to receive all my newsletters directly ...
Hi,I think all of us have probably experienced the power of music — that strange, transformative thing that gets under our skin and helps us experience this whole life thing with some kind of sanity.Listening and experiencing music has always been such a huge part of my life, and has ...
Business frustration over the stalled economy is growing, and only 34% of voters are confidentNicola Willis can deliver. Photo: Lynn Grieveson / The KākāLong stories short, the top six things in Aotearoa’s political economy around housing, climate and poverty on Wednesday, February 12 are:Business frustration is growing about a ...
I have now lived long enough to see a cabinet minister go both barrels on their Prime Minister and not get sacked.It used to be that the PM would have a drawer full of resignations signed by ministers on the day of their appointment, ready for such an occasion. But ...
This session will feature Simon McCallum, Senior Lecturer in Engineering and Computer Science (VUW) and recent Labour Party candidate in the Southland Electorate talking about some of the issues around AI and how this should inform Labour Party policy. Simon is an excellent speaker with a comprehensive command of AI ...
The proposed Waimate garbage incinerator is dead: The company behind a highly-controversial proposal to build a waste-to-energy plant in the Waimate District no longer has the land. [...] However, SIRRL director Paul Taylor said the sales and purchase agreement to purchase land from Murphy Farms, near Glenavy, lapsed at ...
The US Foreign Corrupt Practices Act has been a vital tool in combatting international corruption. It forbids US companies and citizens from bribing foreign public officials anywhere in the world. And its actually enforced: some of the world's biggest companies - Siemens, Hewlett Packard, and Bristol Myers Squibb - have ...
December 2024 photo - with UK Tory Boris Johnson (Source: Facebook)Those PollsFor hours, political poll results have resounded across political hallways and commentary.According to the 1News Verizon poll, 50% of the country believe we are heading in the “wrong direction”, while 39% believe we are “on the right track”.The left ...
A Tai Rāwhiti mill that ran for 30 years before it was shut down in late 2023 is set to re-open in the coming months, which will eventually see nearly 300 new jobs in the region. A new report from Massey University shows that pensioners are struggling with rising costs. ...
As support continues to fall, Luxon also now faces his biggest internal ructions within the coalition since the election, with David Seymour reacting badly to being criticised by the PM. File photo: Lynn Grieveson / The KākāLong stories short, the top six things in Aotearoa’s political economy around housing, climate ...
Not since 1988 when Richard Prebble openly criticised David Lange have we seen such a challenge to a Prime Minister as that of David Seymour to Christopher Luxon last night. Prebble suggested Lange had mental health issues during a TV interview and was almost immediately fired. Seymour hasn’t gone quite ...
Three weeks in, and the 24/7 news cycle is not helping anyone feel calm and informed about the second Trump presidency. One day, the US is threatening 25% trade tariffs on its friends and neighbours. The reasons offered by the White House are absurd, such as stopping fentanyl coming in ...
This video includes personal musings and conclusions of the creator climate scientist Dr. Adam Levy. It is presented to our readers as an informed perspective. Please see video description for references (if any). Wherever you look, you'll hear headlines claiming we've passed 1.5 degrees of global warming. And while 2024 saw ...
Photo by Heather M. Edwards on UnsplashHere’s the key news, commentary, reports and debate around Aotearoa’s politics and economy in the week to Feb 10 below. That’s ahead of live chats on the Substack App and The Kākā’s front page on Substack at 5pm with: on his column in The ...
Is there anyone in the world the National Party loves more than a campaign donor? Why yes, there is! They will always have the warmest hello and would you like to slip into something more comfortable for that great god of our age, the High Net Worth Individual.The words the ...
Waste and fraud certainly exist in foreign aid programs, but rightwing celebration of USAID’s dismantling shows profound ignorance of the value of soft power (as opposed to hard power) in projecting US influence and interests abroad by non-military/coercive means (think of “hearts and minds,” “hugs, not bullets,” “honey versus vinegar,” ...
Health New Zealand is proposing to cut almost half of its data and digital positions – more than 1000 of them. The PSA has called on the Privacy Commissioner to urgently investigate the cuts due to the potential for serious consequences for patients. NZNO is calling for an urgent increase ...
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The Government’s newly announced funding for biodiversity and tourism of $30-million over three years is a small fraction of what is required for conservation in this country. ...
The Government's sudden cancellation of the tertiary education funding increase is a reckless move that risks widespread job losses and service reductions across New Zealand's universities. ...
National’s cuts to disability support funding and freezing of new residential placements has resulted in significant mental health decline for intellectually disabled people. ...
The hundreds of jobs lost needlessly as a result of the Kinleith Mill paper production closure will have a devastating impact on the Tokoroa community - something that could have easily been avoided. ...
Today Te Pāti Māori MP for Te Tai Tokerau, Mariameno Kapa-Kingi, released her members bill that will see the return of tamariki and mokopuna Māori from state care back to te iwi Māori. This bill will establish an independent authority that asserts and protects the rights promised in He Whakaputanga ...
The Whangarei District Council being forced to fluoridate their local water supply is facing a despotic Soviet-era disgrace. This is not a matter of being pro-fluoride or anti-fluoride. It is a matter of what New Zealanders see and value as democracy in our country. Individual democratically elected Councillors are not ...
Nicola Willis’ latest supermarket announcement is painfully weak with no new ideas, no real plan, and no relief for Kiwis struggling with rising grocery costs. ...
Half of Pacific children sometimes going without food is just one of many heartbreaking lowlights in the Salvation Army’s annual State of the Nation report. ...
The Salvation Army’s State of the Nation report is a bleak indictment on the failure of Government to take steps to end poverty, with those on benefits, including their children, hit hardest. ...
New Zealand First has today introduced a Member’s Bill which would restore decision-making power to local communities regarding the fluoridation of drinking water. The ‘Fluoridation (Referendum) Legislation Bill’ seeks to repeal the Health (Fluoridation of Drinking Water) Amendment Act 2021 that granted centralised authority to the Direct General of Health ...
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Erica Stanford has reached peak shortsightedness if today’s announcement is anything to go by, picking apart immigration settings piece by piece to the detriment of the New Zealand economy. ...
Our originating document, theTreaty of Waitangi, was signed on February 6, 1840. An agreement between Māori and the British Crown. Initially inked by Ngā Puhi in Waitangi, further signatures were added as it travelled south. The intention was to establish a colony with the cession of sovereignty to the Crown, ...
Te Whatu Ora Chief Executive Margie Apa leaving her job four months early is another symptom of this government’s failure to deliver healthcare for New Zealanders. ...
The Green Party is calling for the Prime Minister to show leadership and be unequivocal about Aotearoa New Zealand’s opposition to a proposal by the US President to remove Palestinians from Gaza. ...
The latest unemployment figures reveal that job losses are hitting Māori and Pacific people especially hard, with Māori unemployment reaching a staggering 9.7% for the December 2024 quarter and Pasifika unemployment reaching 10.5%. ...
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Despite being confronted every day with people in genuine need being stopped from accessing emergency housing – National still won’t commit to building more public houses. ...
The Green Party says the Government is giving up on growing the country’s public housing stock, despite overwhelming evidence that we need more affordable houses to solve the housing crisis. ...
Before any thoughts of the New Year and what lies ahead could even be contemplated, New Zealand reeled with the tragedy of Senior Sergeant Lyn Fleming losing her life. For over 38 years she had faithfully served as a front-line Police officer. Working alongside her was Senior Sergeant Adam Ramsay ...
Green Party co-leader Marama Davidson will return to politics at Waitangi on Monday the 3rd of February where she will hold a stand up with fellow co-leader Chlöe Swarbrick. ...
Te Pāti Māori is appalled by the government's blatant mishandling of the school lunch programme. David Seymour’s ‘cost-saving’ measures have left tamariki across Aotearoa with unidentifiable meals, causing distress and outrage among parents and communities alike. “What’s the difference between providing inedible food, and providing no food at all?” Said ...
The Government is doubling down on outdated and volatile fossil fuels, showing how shortsighted and destructive their policies are for working New Zealanders. ...
Green Party MP Steve Abel this morning joined Coromandel locals in Waihi to condemn new mining plans announced by Shane Jones in the pit of the town’s Australian-owned Gold mine. ...
The Green Party is calling on the Government to strengthen its just-announced 2030-2035 Nationally Determined Contribution (NDC) under the Paris Agreement and address its woeful lack of commitment to climate security. ...
Today marks a historic moment for Taranaki iwi with the passing of the Te Pire Whakatupua mō Te Kāhui Tupua/Taranaki Maunga Collective Redress Bill in Parliament. "Today, we stand together as descendants of Taranaki, and our tūpuna, Taranaki Maunga, is now formally acknowledged by the law as a living tūpuna. ...
The Government’s commitment to get New Zealand’s roads back on track is delivering strong results, with around 98 per cent of potholes on state highways repaired within 24 hours of identification every month since targets were introduced, Transport Minister Chris Bishop says. “Increasing productivity to help rebuild our economy is ...
The former Cadbury factory will be the site of the Inpatient Building for the new Dunedin Hospital and Health Minister Simeon Brown says actions have been taken to get the cost overruns under control. “Today I am giving the people of Dunedin certainty that we will build the new Dunedin ...
From today, Plunket in Whāngarei will be offering childhood immunisations – the first of up to 27 sites nationwide, Health Minister Simeon Brown says. The investment of $1 million into the pilot, announced in October 2024, was made possible due to the Government’s record $16.68 billion investment in health. It ...
New Zealand’s strong commitment to the rights of disabled people has continued with the response to an important United Nations report, Disability Issues Minister Louise Upston has announced. Of the 63 concluding observations of the United Nations Convention on the Rights of Persons with Disabilities (UNCRPD), 47 will be progressed ...
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Anyone have any useful inside word on why Robertson is taking so long to announce his house-price-cooling mechanisms?
After our emotional binge-purge cycle week of downer Christchurch earthquake and massacre commemorations, followed by Auckland's euphoria about winning the America's Cup, surely this government is now able to throw us some actual policy once more?
surely it is just a week away…..any day now.
Just an opinion but wondering if the government is having to recalibrate its response having spent so much political capital on its handling of Auckland’s yo-yo lockdown and the likelihood of entering a double dip recession at the end of the month.
No – they'll stay the course because it has produced world-leading outcomes, has been very popular and also extremely resistant to being undermined by the "economy first" loons who try to use clever-sounding language like "yo-yo lockdowns" that are really just grotesque (and intentional) over-simplifications of the complexities of pandemic management. In short – "all good".
… and after a bit of asking around, the announcements are this Tuesday. Its going to be quite a fast week in tax legislation sausage-making.
Well as I've repeatedly stated the reason why NZ tilted so far toward property investment is because the alternatives failed my generation. So when I read this:
I can't help but think that words are cheap.
First year out of school I blew my wages on 4,000 Equiticorp shares because they were going to take over BHP and rule the earth from there.
Lesson learned.
Snap – but I'd only bought Yates & Bisley's – Equiticorp swallowed them of course.
Its not inside info, nor does it inform as to why Robertson is sitting on his hands but it does indicate next week….finally.
https://www.interest.co.nz/property/109549/government-says-next-weeks-housing-policy-announcement-will-be-part-stick-part
Given the ever changing situation I'd say they are waiting to see what happens now the rate of returnees and their foreign cash is slowing, and the money from the Covid wage and business support is drying up. Demand side might have had its throat cut.
They've shown they don't want to make decisions on this unless as a last resort because it scares the horses so much whenever anyone suggests tampering with the golden egg of property investment.
It's just Mums and Dads giving it a go, don't you know. They've worked so hard all their lives and deserve to not pay tax on property gains, just like the next man. This is New Zealand, after all.
an issue that is concerning me is the gender self I’d bill.
I think this will mean anyone can change their sex on their birth certificate, no questions asked. I get the process trans people have to go through is very difficult, but that is the nature of their predicament, ie they want to change sex because the sex they were born feels wrong for them.
but the gender self I’d bill opens up entry into women’s domains eg public toilets, for anyone and there is nothing to stop pedofiles, sex offenders and rapists changing their sex to become a woman. Of course these people can choose to transition and go through the process as it is the become a woman, but that in itself is somewhat protective against predictors using it to gain access to women and children.
I do think it is absurd that anyone can change their sex on their birth sex certificate no questions asked and I am interested to hear others views on this.
someone called Grace Miller posted a link with comments from trans activists the other day that showed comments from them saying kill all terfs, really nasty stuff. Grace if you are around can you let me know what country those trans activists were from? I am scared to talk about this issue (not on this forum where I can be anonymous, but in public because of the potential for threats of violence and vitriol
After a decade of being firmly informed that gender is nothing more than a 'social construct' and that human biology is of little to no importance – I must confess to watching the logical conclusion of this ideology being played out both confusing and sad.
if gender is a social construct (which I don’t believe), then that would surely mean that boys who are born male and brought upas boys would remain men, because it’s all socially constructed.
if we support diversity and I do, the men who transition to women are trans women. They have a very different experience and have different biology and still maintain an advantage of strength. The are different from women who are born women, have wombs female anatomy etc. trans women are different from women but different doesn’t mean inferior. It means different. Still worthy as people.
Trans women are trans women. Trans men are trans men. Simple, really.
I'm really worried about this too. The idea of a male prisoner/or about to be convicted suddenly declaring himself female to take advantage of being placed with vulerable women turns my stomach as much as a newly identified woman being forced into a male prison. There needs to be a clear demarkation and a pieces of paper don't cut it.
one of the key points to get across to women in particular is that changing the law to make it easier for trans people will impact legally on women, but also socially. i.e. the culture will change as well as the legals. How women are allowed to set boundaries will be challenged. This is already happening overseas. It's complicated further by the push to allow non-binary people into women's spaces even if they are male.
I say get across to women, because most women are supportive of trans rights (rightfully so), and don't realise that there is a conflict of rights here that needs public discussion. And those women are the ones that need to be talking about it before the law changes.
The implications of the changes aren't well understood, in part because of the fast social changes that are happening that most people aren't keeping up with eg male bodied people identifying as women and doing no medical or even social transitioning. This means that any male person will be able to identify as a woman, or even as female, if they choose irrespective of if they are trans or not. It's not simply about official documents, this will be across society. The definition of trans is broadening too.
It's also not well understood because of the intense pressure to suppress debate. People lose their jobs, careers, family and friends over this in the US and the UK.
It's also important to look at the issue as a conflict of rights that needs a resolutio for *both sides. We can uphold the needs and rights of women and trans people, but only imo if we are allowed to talk about it.
Agree with 'look at the issue as a conflict of rights' and we need to be able to have these discussions without the shit-slinging that's been going on.
What really rips my proverbials are headlines like…
Man Gives Birth!!!
Clearly rubbish and fantasyland stuff. Simply calling yourself a man doth not make it true, especially if you choose to suspend the blockers and get pregnant. It seems that for this woman being a man was a lifestyle choice, a passing fad. Unbelievable that such a person could claim on one day to have been 'born into the wrong body'/'assigned the wrong sex at birth', then on a subsequent day employ that same 'wrong' body to do what nature intended of that 'assigned' sex.
We need to put in place protections for the words we use to describe biological sex (woman, female, girl, man, boy, male) and ensure that we all agree on the words that describe gender. And make damn sure that we know there's a difference between the two.
What really rips my proverbials are headlines like…
Underpants or knickers?
we are going to end up with two 'somethings' – Men and Others. And nothing much will change.
The current list, as far as I can see:
say that on social media and you will be schooled in why it is wrong, and if you persist you will be labelled a terf. If you're famous or have a large reach, you'll mostly likely experience some version of cancel culture. Otoh, the fact that you are a bloke will protect you somewhat. As Sabine said, nothing much has changed.
meh.
The bathroom thing gave it away, I would have thought. Some of these labels can be subgroups or included alongside other labels, and signs on toilet doors don't stop the door being used by someone who doesn't suit that sign (from whatever perspective).
Probably the best thing to go would be to make the current process easier. I would also have the birth gender listed on the birth certificate as well, bringing into line with name changes and the legal fiction of adoption.
I do not think changing gender/sex should be as simply as filling in a form online and using your credit/debit card.
yes women’s voices are being silenced by trans activists, with postings full of vitriol and death threats. In the 70s most men I knew heard our voices about the patriarchy and the impact on us.
so much of the women’s movement has been tied up with our biology. A woman’s right to choice, contraception, the cervical cancer enquiry, maternity leave. Rape of women by men, undervaluing of women’s sports, in part because we are physically weaker.
Mc flook, I take your point about toilets. However as someone who suffered an attempted rape in a public toilet, I am very uncomfortable with any person with male genitalia, male hormones, denser muscle mass and large height/frame being given freedom to enter female toilets. Public toilets are places where we are quite vulnerable.
I know a male friend of mine who is quite tall was told at some sort of men’s group, to be very aware of what it’s like for women who is walking alone. Subsequently he acts accordingly.
I would hope that men who are trans would also bare this in mind
I AM ASKING PEOPLE TO WRITE TO THEIR MPS TO REGISTER THEIR OPPOSITION TO THIS BILL
i have written. I am terrified that my name will be leaked and that I will face a huge backlash. I ll keep you all posted
That is also part of why trans women do not want to be forced to use male toilets.
yes, this is the conflict of rights and needs. In the UK where there are male and female toilets, the female toilets are being converted to gender neutral and the male toilets are being left as is. There's so much bullshit in that that cannot be be wiped away by asserting that trans women need safe spaces too. Obviously they do, but why are women's rights being eroded to do that? You can treat that as a rhetorical question and I'll just quote Sabine again "we are going to end up with two 'somethings' – Men and Others. And nothing much will change."
Most of the gender neutral toilet complaints seem to be that blocks have been divided into toilets vs urinals rather than gender, e.g. the old vic.
The argument seems to be that women can't use the urinals, so they only get 24 spaces vs the men having access to 42 (18 of those being urinals).
Sounds bad, until one reads that the number of toilets was doubled in that reno, and half a dozen of them aren't stuck in the gents.
Also saves front of house staff from trying to shut toilets to men for ten minutes to clear the queue outside the ladies (which was a thing that regularly had to happen at one venue I used to work.)
I mean, the world being what it is there might be places that just swapped the women's sign with "unisex" and left the men's as is. Didn't see any examples, though.
Come to think of it, the toilets in the theatre I'm involved with are unisex and wheelchair accessible. Little rooms with their own sink and door and toilet. No urinals whatsoever.
Great to see this issue getting an airing on here. I think the question is really the government's to answer. And it goes like this. We are being presented with self-id as a trifle. Nothing to worry about. A convenience for males who identify as women (and vice versa) to not have to go through the 'humilation' of having any criteria associated with their decision to be regarded as a woman. But looked at through my eyes is that the government is making the category of woman a contested category – based on a feeling when this has never been the case before.
If women who have had an ontological category to describe themselves – by sex – that has served to lessen and to measure discrimination and to fight for inclusion in mainstream society then how can it possibly be right that that category is nullified without any public discussion and consultation, risk or impact assessment.\? How can it be possible that making the category into a category of self-identification will have zero or inconsequential impacts? Well the answer is it doesn't. If sex as a category is nullifed then doing this without a public consultation or explaining why it's also great for women is surely a fundamental departure from the Bill of Rights Act. Luckily there is a likely solution David Parker is currently putting through legislation to make governments who act against the Bill of Rights subject to a legal remedy. I think women and them men who support them need to take a judicial review on this issue.
Thanks Jan. That sounds a bit more promising than I'd been thinking. Nice summing up too. I'd add that there are two issues here: one the changing of sex as a category and two the suppression of debate. If what's being proposed is such a great idea why can we not talk about it?
because it ain't great.
Women are beings with very particular 'side effects'. One is we are menstruating, then we fall pregnant and then we give birth.
So we are now 'people who menstruate'.
We are pregnant persons.
And then we go straight to Mum. Lol.
We are 'people, persons, Mums. We are never women. And if someone takes offense at say menstruating people being called people rather then women, they are called all sorts of things. And yet, only biological women will ever menstruate.
but one bit after one bit, the discriptive word of 'women' is replaces by 'people, persons, others, but we are no longer mentioned as women. This however is not happening to men. And that is an issue, and the reason to me is simply not to elevate trans men or trans women, but to disapear and muddle us into one group. That will be the other group of, women, trans, disabled, others. All with less rights then men of course.
In the french language men are “il” and women are ‘elle’. So a group of women doing something would be ‘Elles sont/font’ etc, and a group of men is Ils sont, Il font etc. But if there is one man in a group of women they suddenly become ‘ils’.
Funny how that always works out in eradicating women as a group of people with their own set of identifiers and needs.
,
What do you call females who do not menstruate?
i have not menstruated since my womb was cut out due to cancer, but i would still call myself a women. Is that what you are talking about? Or are you talking about transwomen? I would call them women too, but again, that is just me.
Yes, that is what I meant. I remember feminists of past decades strongly resisting defining gender by biology.
I really don't care about any such thing, if you want me to care about some stuff that some feminists or not feminists thought in the previous decades you must link to it for me to read so that i can understand where your thinking comes from, or else your comment is again just a wee little snark/reminder as to please define your view of women as a women and what consists of women. Besides, there are a heep of older women past meno pause who also don't bleed anymore, and i guess you would still call them women?
But the only people on this planet to menstruate, or get pregnant are still women. Not people, not persons, not anything else but biological women. So others maybe want to keep that in mind when they try to play gotcha games as to what is or is not a women. We are fairly easily identified.
Also i would call ‘females’ women. Just you know.
I would. I cannot remember the whole reading list for the introductory Feminist Studies paper led by Rosemary Novitz at Canterbury University in the late 1980s but it was pretty comprehensive at the time. Some thinking seems to have done a 180 since.
i was told at fifteen that women will get married and have children and thus don't need education. 🙂 – very early 80s.
Nothing has changed. We are still where we were then. It is just that those that are women, disabled, queer, trans, of color, intersex, they/them etc are all now 'other/people/persons/'. Rather then their own thing.
And all the 'others' will have the same few rights they had before. Only as much as they are granted by the ruling class who really don't care what you and i identify as. We are either cost centres, or profit centers. And once we internalise and understand that we may actually get the conversation to where it needs to be, what it means to be human, Ein Mensch sein, erst, und dann die eigen gemachte Idenditaet.
"I remember feminists of past decades strongly resisting defining gender by biology."
Feminists have rightly resisted biological determinism, which is an ideology that says because (only) women can bear children this is what they are for, or must do (the GCF view is that gender is wholly a construct designed to control the reproductive labour of women for the purposes of power holding men. I don't agree fully with that, but their philosophy does bring things into start contrast).
Also, the word gender can mean sex or gender ID, I'm not sure which you meant.
Acknowledging the reality of biological sex isn't biological determinism. We don't have to define women solely by biology, but biology is a core component of being female. This is why my position is that trans women are trans women. I'm good with trans women defining themselves as a separate class from men, as well as understanding how they differ from women.
Gender never meant the same as sex when I studied. One was biological and the other socially constructed. It was the only useful way to describe the variety of ways women experienced different cultures around the world.
would be nice if we could go back to that.
"What do you call females who do not menstruate?"
Women.
females who don't menstruate are females, women. If they are too young to menstruate they are girls.
agree about the language Sabine. It is ridiculous and it takes away part of what defines us as women.
Wow Jan, that is helpful to know. Thank you.
It intrigues me how you try to define this an issue between "women" and "them men who support them" (sic) presumably against the rest of men when there are many cis women feminists driving change. These discussions mostly present to me as a split within Feminism.
yes, there's definitely a split within feminism. And the left.
Jan was saying that the women who aren't ok with self-ID being introduced without even talking to women about it (and the men who support those women) will be able to take legal action.
Jan was saying that the women who aren't ok with self-ID
No that is not what she said. She just spoke of "women".
She is talking about cis women as though they are a cohesive group when they are not.
And she only made a vague assertion as to the relevance of the Bill of Rights. She didn't even say what section of the Act is applicable.
"I think women and them men who support them need to take a judicial review on this issue."
Do you think Jan means literally all women, or that she means the women who object to self-ID? Because if you think the former, you're doing #notallwhatever, and that would just be naff.
I think she is trying to frame the issue as women against the patriarchy when it is not.
it is actually. The GCF central position is that exactly (not sure where Jan fits into that specifically). This doesn't mean all women agree, but it's a coherent and consistent political argument. You can disagree with that (feel free to make the argument), but it's not helpful to misrepresent their views.
So am i misrepresenting her views or not? You seem to be saying i probably aren't but then telling me that i am.
I think you are. Jan can say what she meant, but imo you are saying she is trying to obscure the fact that women/feminists are divided over the issue (I don't think she is, I think you are reading something that isn't there). You also said her framing was wrong, I disagree, I think her framing is consistent with GCFs views.
What is a cis woman? Who coined this term? I am a women. End of story.
I hear trans women saying they are real women. Guess what, I have never thought of my self as a real women. I am a women. I was born female because I had female sex genetalia, which is because I have XX chromosome. Men have an XY chromosome. There are some very rare exceptions.
By allowing any man to change their sexual identity on their birth certificate worries me greatly. Whoever the women who support this are, they have failed to understand that this will mean there is nothing to prevent, rapists, sex offenders and paedophiles from changing their birth certificate to say they are women. If you can't see this is a problem, then please re-think it through.
Women who support this change cannot be aware of the radical trans activists and the bullying that has been going on when women speak up on this issue in the UK and the US.
Men wanting to be women, isn't women's problem. We have enough to contend with as it is.
And by the way when I have met trans men or women I have always been pleasant and respectful as I do when I meet any new people.
Why on earth would they bother? Being men is not stopping them.
Self-ID will give a legitimacy to men in women's spaces that doesn't currently exist. That men already abuse those boundaries is not a good reason to open the boundaries and give them a way to have a free pass. I don't think the issue is the birth certificate so much as the social/cultural change that is happening as legal self-ID is brought in. It's already getting hard for women to run women's only spaces. There are activists in the UK who want all sex based rights removed at the legal level. That's not only about trans people, that affects everyone. Men of course are generally less concerned about that change than women.
Are you saying that trans women are men?
no, I'm saying that non-trans males will take advantage of self-ID.
There are additional issues around TW access to women's spaces that are segregated on the basis of sex not gender. And non-binary males, there seems to be this idea that they should have access to women's spaces too, which I've yet to see a good explanation for.
for example, there's a general increasing problem with men videoing women in changing rooms and toilets (as tech make this easier to do). In the UK department stores have started saying that men who ID as women can use the women's changing rooms. Do I really need to explain how this increases access for offenders?
So trans men would be welcome in safe spaces defined by sex rather than gender?
that would be up to them. Where it conflicts with other groups' rights, then there needs to be discussion about how to manage that (rather than the the suppression of discussion that's been going on for years now).
I can see TW and women sharing some spaces for instance, and then each group also having sex segregated space. The problem currently is the dismissal of women's rights and needs and the dismissal of biological sex category as important.
Oh, so you are only disrespectful when you write online. Denying somebody's identity is about as disrespectful as it comes. There are good reasons why this subject generates anger.
I see the transgender thing as basically where the homosexual thing was forty years ago. Back then there was still a significant number of people who still believed that homosexuality did not really exist as sexuality and that it was only a fetish or a mental illness that needed therapy. Most people today accept the fact that some people are gay and that is just the way it is. When the likes of Brian Tamaki roll out that bigotry now most people roll their eyes, have a bit of a laugh, and carry on.
There is a lot more to human biology than genitals and chromosomes. Brains are also biological.
will you call a woman cis when she doesn't identify as that?
This latest restatement of old arguments over the last few days is very tiring. Been generally trying to limit my exposure this time, on the basis that it's the last blast before the legislation changes. It's the anti-smacking thing all over again, I'm hoping.
False equivalence mcflook and whoever suggested it the homosexual law (which I have always supported). I don’t think the majority of women have been consulted about this at all.
also from what I have seen women who have contested it get taken down with death threats and vitriol.
It’s a bit nearer, although not the same ifI decided I was a different ethnicity, say Maori. If I really felt that was my identity. I don’t think that would be accepted. My partner is Maori and while I am Whanau I am pakeha, definitely not part of the tribe.
Because trans activists don't get death threats and vitriol?
The other day a NZ trans woman I follow on twitter was talking about how a NZ "gender critical" organisation had linked to people doxxing her. So it goes both ways.
As for the level of consultation all around, keep telling yourself that – it's a common refrain for the less popular side. Don't worry, as the legislation nears, it's tailor made for the nats to go consulting all over the place. Get a really good rabble going. The Tamakis will do their part, too.
Then we'll see if "most" people still give a damn.
I am sorry to hear about this experience. Excuse my ignorance, but I don't know what doxxing means. Who were the gender critical organisation.?
It means publicising someone's personal information, especially on a forum where the only reasonable expectation is harrassment of the person, their family, and their employer.
And no, I'm not going to name names, because that would:
ironically, it's tedious as fuck having left wing men still and again telling women how to do our own politics. Calling us bigots might be new, but the lack of support when it doesn't suit the menz isn't. I guess what's also new is that it's so up front now, but it still beggars belief and I’d love to hear an explanation of the progressive philosophy that trans people are entitled to equity and justice but women suddenly aren’t.
I'd really encourage you to follow some of the left wing GCFs on twitter. I don't have a good sense of how this is going to play out in NZ, because we're very different than the UK, but the first thing to understand is that there are progressive women with strong class analysis who are saying, hang on, there are issues here. Many of them were previously very supportive of trans issues.
And yes, the right will play this like an easy fiddle. This is going to harm the left at time when we really can't afford it.
I follow one or two. But as soon as shit like "men dressed as women" comes out, the follow stops. Turns out that really thins the number of follows.
Sure, I've chosen a side. I made the best call I could. My own position has evolved. I've listened to trans women and trans men (like the ones mocked in this thread), I've read and reread the more considered responses of some GCFs. I've been to talks from paediatricians talking about how to engage with and treat trans youth. I've listened to the parents of trans kids, and their journey.
I'm not an expert, but neither is this just a trivial knee-jerk position I've taken with zero thought.
And I speak on the topic because it's been requested, as an indication they're not alone.
Who are the trans women and what was the mocking?
Who, specifically, have I listened to? yeah, nah. Not going to open them to harrassment or me to identification.
As for the mocking, this comment is dripping with it.
Ok, I was wanting to check that you didn't feel I had been mocking because that is not what I intend. I realise I probably don't have the right language for these discussions.
I think its fine for you to put your point of view across as a man. You have obviously put a lot of time into finding out stuff.
However, I think the voices of women need to be heard and prioritized.
I think Weka has framed it quite well. That Trans women and women who were born and raised as women and have internalized very different
messages about themselves and their identity need to be prioritized. You will never know what it's like to live with the fear that we face everyday and live with our bodies. That is our experience.
I also want to let you know how the language being used about women in some quarters, wherever it comes from, I find de humanizing. People with vaginas, people who are menstruaters, Terfs, Cis women.
Terfs is a perjorative term, meant to shut down and stigmatize women who have a different point of view.
You may have been going through this debate for some time, but I am knew to it. My main objection is the gender self id bill and the language being used about women with the xx chromosomes biology. As I said I find this dehumanizing and frankly insulting.
No, as far as I can see you haven't been mocking anyone at all.
I certainly have no idea about the extent of your lived experience. Just as I have no idea about the extent of the lived experiences of trans people who have been assaulted because of their trans status as well as those dangers that face their transitioned gender.
Some of the terms used are malicious or dismissive. I have tried to get away from using "terf", for example, even though the only term in the acronym that seems like it might be inappropriate in some instances is "radical". But that's the call and using that term isn't conducive to productive discussion, so it's an adaptation I need to make. "Gender critical", on the other hand, seems to me to be far to… sterile? It sort of reduces the position to an abstract debate on identity, rather than the desired outcome of stating who should use what door and the ability to confront and humiliate someone who doesn't seem to match the label.
I've always viewed "cis" as simply meaning "not queer" (i.e. non-LGBTQITFTvTs…). Mostly as a tool for describing my own perspective, what I have experience of and not. "Cis man" basically replaces a massive paragraph.
The thing about XX chromosome biology is that not every woman has it. Sure, dramatic cases might be very rare indeed, but they exist in NZ. Often having been crudely "corrected" by surgery as infants. I've met some of them. Making biological sex binary in order to debate transsexual issues is simply repeating the assumption that led to those surgeries. It strikes me as paradoxical to ignore someone else's existence in order to protect one's own identity.
I have a lot of time for you and Weka. I do try to take on board your comments, with possible exceptions if I'm tired/grumpy/having a stupid day (for those instances, I apologise).
yeah I find the men in dresses thing both bigoted and really unhelpful to discussion. Unfortunately the definition of trans being broadened so that it does now cover men in dresses (cross dressing men rather than say males with gender dysphoria or males with a strong sense of femaleness internally to the point of identity), or the male prisoners trying to ID their way out of male prisons or into women's prisons. I cut the GCFs some slack on this because on twitter shorthand is often a necessity, and many of those women tried for years to talk more evenhandedly and have given up. But there are plenty of bigots in GCF and GC twitter.
transsexual/gender vs transvestite?
Especially confusing as trying to negotiate social mores can make transvesticism(sp?) as sort of "cover story" for someone who wishes to fully transition – Eddie Izzard comes to mind.
The prison thing is definitely a problem, but it's a security problem. If someone's a danger to other prisoners, as shown by their history, don't put them with vulnerable prisoners. Doesn't matter if they're in the same building.
They are transitioning gender.
I hope you find peace without denying other people theirs.
That is a nice sentiment honestly it is Sascha.
but it’s not really the point. I feel my identity as a women is under attack. My biology is being reduced to being a menstruater or a person with a vagina. If I raise concerns about this I am called a reef. I am being told I am a cis woman. Where did this term come from? I didn’t agree to it. I have huge concerns that men will use the gender I’d bill for secondary gain. I read of the experience of women and lesbians overseas being canceled, losing their jobs, having the nastiest vitriol thrown at them. It’s happened here too, someone I know participated in an event stand up for women event and on her fb page someone wrote I hope you die.
I also experienced a very nasty assault on a public changing room. I want to preserve those spaces for women.
so no not a lot of peace for me.
And actually I feel for people who are transitioning. And people who are in men’s bodies who identify as women I will respect that when I come across them. But I don’t support the idea that they change the sex on their birth certificate. No questions asked.
But who is doing that? Does not seem to be trans women.
Sorry to hear that. Was it by a man?
I am taking your comment about my assault is genuine. Thank you.
"Your question "was it by a man?" I must say has a bit of a gotcha feel.
But anyway I will do my best to answer. The person who attempted to rape me was of male statute and had a male voice, wore male clothing. I assumed he was a man, although he wore a white mask with black line drawn on it. I am pretty sure he had male genitalia because when I tried to hit him in the balls, I felt what I think was his testicle. He then punched in me in the face. The adrenalin was really pumping in my body and so I tried to pull his mask off. That is when he panicked and struggled to keep it on. While that was happening I managed to escape.
The idea of people being able to self id as women, no questions asked,and legitimately be in a change room or womans toilet terrifies me. If you believe that some men who are sex offenders want try and do that and have legitimate access to women and girls getting changed then I don't think that is considering women.
I
If you think not having the gender self id bill will mean transitioning women can't change their birth certificate at some point, then that is incorrect too.
The tourism industry was the focus of two speeches by ministers yesterday, one a pathway to the future, and the other a cautionary tale from the recent past.
In Queenstown Stuart Nash outlined the Government's near future aspirations for the industry,
Probably not what a lot of operators who didn't see this disruption coming wanted to hear, especially those who had been appropriating the commons and domestic products to sell at profit to the highest payer. But also what many operators and communities have wanted to see for a long time.
Meanwhile Damien O'Conner was talking to farmers at the Field Day in Fielding. In it he presented a cautionary tale about not getting too cocky during the good times and then getting caught out in the inevitable downturn. Sounds like he was pretty blunt. He hits the nail on the head here.
The response from National's David Bennett was apoplectic
Mr Bennett, businesses don't plan to fail, they fail to plan. Which is what happened to a lot in tourism. These comments typify the National approach to business planning, when things go wrong, Government handout. Seems rather strange that the pretty communists are now the party of individual and business responsibility.
Well looking at the panic last year, we can honestly state that the Government also failed to include any pandemic planning into their plans. Sadly the tax payer will always bail out the government and with it these Suits who in their life have no idea what the fuck they are actually talking about.
“While we had warning signals through Sars of the possibility of pandemics and interruptions to international travel, it probably wasn't built into their business models,”
This applies to the Government too.
Btw, so we let tourism industry die – unless its rich lister coming to a rich listers event paid for by tax dollars.
then we let the horticulturist die, after all i guess the minister can buy his fruit n wine from overseas, after all he is on a 200.000 dollar wage a year + perks and for that he don't have to do anything other then blame businesses for a locked up country and world.
Who next? Who next do we not need to help because they should have two years of wages, of leases, of taxes, of licensing fees, and other compliance costs tucked away?
Who?
and who profits of this disaster capitalism?
I remember well over thirty years ago, taking leaflets from Uyghur activists, reading them and over the years wondering why the various New Zealand governments had never mentioned these poor people and their plight while we were all being encouraged to consume..no gorge ourselves on cheaply made goods of every description that we all well knew where often being manufactured in the most appalling of condition and often by children….from China our shining new trading partner…thanks Labour and Helen Clark!
…cut to 2021, China now is a world super power, many of it's children who for the past thirty years have been diligently studying at western universities throughout the world have now returned home, in the twinkling of an eye China now not only has the largest manufacturing capacity in the world, it now also has the trained intellectual power to exploit it, next minute China has 5G technology and all that implies.
And how has the west reacted to this new power base threatening their corporate monopolies, well one way it seems is to suddenly become aware of the plight of the Uyghur's, not because any western power base gives even the slightest flying fuck about the Uyghur's, no of course they have cynically co-opted this story only to whip up anti Chinese sentiment among their lazy thinking citizens.
Unfortunately for the Uyghur, their new allies will only in the end sully and muddy the waters in the fight for their rightful cause….as I have said many times here "if you lay down with dogs you get up with fleas", though that being said I have no idea how much control the Uyghur have over who represents them on the world stage?
This article make sobering reading….
The ‘Independent’ Report Claiming Uyghur Genocide
'It was brought to you by a sham university and neocon ideologues lobbying to punish China for U.S. interests.'
https://consortiumnews.com/2021/03/19/the-independent-report-claiming-uyghur-genocide/
Oh good. So no problem allowing independent journos and investigators into the region to have an extended and unfettered look about then. /sarc
…reading Adrian's comment he doesn't seem to be questioning that abuse of Urghurs occurs..it reads to me more like an observation of what we are willing to ignore when it suits our wallet…and how the second our stock exchange and supposed intellectual superiority falters we're more than happy to listen to crazy homophobes on a mission from God…whos research is based on cherry picked spread sheets…good causes being co opted for the wrong reasons is always problematic, because you can be sure, should the tide change this issue (and the Urghurs) will be dropped like a hot potato…as for "independent journos and investigators" I absolutely agree..unfortunately I'm not sure there are any that would meet the particular requirements and agendas of our western world leaders..
Is there any other issue we would rally behind when the accademic paper isn't peer reviewed…from a guy whos day job is "with the distance learning focused bible college Columbia International University where Zenz also serves as a lecturer."
Interesting how often it's decided that because we disagree with someone on one thing (eg their views on same sex relationships), we therefore conclude everything else they say must be wrong.
In other words leaping from 'Zenz is a bit of an extremist' to 'there isn't anything untoward happening in Xinjiang' is not an argument.
The entire matter can be readily settled as I implied above – open, trusted investigation.
short of repeating myself…you seem to not be understanding the points being made.
But sure, if what you take from our comments is…'there isn't anything untoward happening in Xinjiang'..go for it..
"The entire matter can be readily settled as I implied above – open, trusted investigation."
Aahh yeah, that was the entire point of my comment… now that US/Western corporate/govts/media have got involved for all the wrong reasons (seriously, do you think any of them give a shit about the Uyghur people?), and that they, as the investigation I linked to above quite clearly shows, immediately muddy the waters using their modus operandi of misinformation, propaganda and half truths, so having a "open, trusted investigation" on this subject becomes more and more difficult.
Ultra-gammon and workplace bully, Jeremy Clarkson, underlines his own and his followers fading relevancy by revving up in The Sun about Meghan Markle.
So fragile are they, the belief is she is trying to take down the monarchy. This mirrors the complaints from the alt-right the world over. That any challenge to white patriarchal dominance is to be crushed.
I think she just wants to shine a light on the arcane structure of monarchistic Britain in the hope it will sometime get with the 21st Century.
In claiming Markle will soon be on a Playboy's yacht, Clarkson has Diana-ised her. Perhaps he wishes her dead in a high speed car crash too…
https://www.newshub.co.nz/home/entertainment/2021/03/jeremy-clarkson-unleashes-on-silly-little-meghan-markle-predicts-she-will-be-on-playboy-s-yacht-soon.html
The YouGov poll data also says that since the interview Harry's overall favourability rating has gone negative for the first time ever. Suggesting that the UK public is probably more alt-right than you think and don't appreciate woke ideas infiltrating their institutions.
Yet another facepalm moment.
https://twitter.com/SkyNews/status/1372951027947864067
Yeah kind of sad and a bit pathetic when you watch this Biden ad first….
He fractured his ankle a short while ago and its still a bit on the weak side. How dare he sustain a common-garden injury and then trip up on it.
Its the gallows for him. Nothing less. (sarc)
Sorry, Francie, you've had 12 months to come up with a plan to get your strawberries picked by locals. But you were waiting on the government to deliver foreign workers to you, cheap, like you always had.
Question is, why in your eyes are local workers not as good as foreign workers? Such a mystery…
https://www.nzherald.co.nz/business/major-strawberry-grower-perrys-berrys-calls-it-quits-amid-labour-shortage/EVV3WCSJJQBJUGZ4FTKPAJ56QE/
Strawberries…yum.
https://www.stuff.co.nz/waikato-times/news/765478/Strawberry-growers-allay-spray-disquiet
https://www.choice.com.au/food-and-drink/food-warnings-and-safety/pesticides/articles/strawberries-test-reveals-health-concerns
https://ceres.co.nz/blog/dirty-dozen-the-most-pesticide-laden-produce-plus-clean-15-list/
Question is, why in your eyes are local workers not as good as foreign workers?
Perhaps the locals will still be around dealing with the rashes long after the harvest is done. I once did a stint at commercial strawberry picking. Wondered why some of the other pickers were wearing gloves and masks. Soon found out.
Couldn't happen to a nicer whinger.
https://youtu.be/qQfetkoGrpU
I remember at the old Athletic Park, women regularly and cheerfully used the men's toilet.