Open mike 20/03/2021

98 comments on “Open mike 20/03/2021 ”

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1. Ad 1

   20 March 2021 at 8:09 am

   Anyone have any useful inside word on why Robertson is taking so long to announce his house-price-cooling mechanisms?

   After our emotional binge-purge cycle week of downer Christchurch earthquake and massacre commemorations, followed by Auckland's euphoria about winning the America's Cup, surely this government is now able to throw us some actual policy once more?
   • Sabine 1.1

     20 March 2021 at 8:21 am

     surely it is just a week away…..any day now.
   • David 1.2

     20 March 2021 at 9:07 am

     Just an opinion but wondering if the government is having to recalibrate its response having spent so much political capital on its handling of Auckland’s yo-yo lockdown and the likelihood of entering a double dip recession at the end of the month.
     • AB 1.2.1

       20 March 2021 at 9:24 am

       No – they'll stay the course because it has produced world-leading outcomes, has been very popular and also extremely resistant to being undermined by the "economy first" loons who try to use clever-sounding language like "yo-yo lockdowns" that are really just grotesque (and intentional) over-simplifications of the complexities of pandemic management. In short – "all good".
   • Ad 1.3

     20 March 2021 at 11:04 am

     … and after a bit of asking around, the announcements are this Tuesday. Its going to be quite a fast week in tax legislation sausage-making.
     • RedLogix 1.3.1

       20 March 2021 at 11:23 am

       Well as I've repeatedly stated the reason why NZ tilted so far toward property investment is because the alternatives failed my generation. So when I read this:

       Orr noted the need for people to look for “alternative places to invest”.

       I can't help but think that words are cheap.
       • Ad 1.3.1.1

         20 March 2021 at 12:03 pm

         First year out of school I blew my wages on 4,000 Equiticorp shares because they were going to take over BHP and rule the earth from there.

         Lesson learned.
         • Stuart Munro 1.3.1.1.1

           20 March 2021 at 2:08 pm

           Snap – but I'd only bought Yates & Bisley's – Equiticorp swallowed them of course.
   • Pat 1.4

     20 March 2021 at 11:10 am

     Its not inside info, nor does it inform as to why Robertson is sitting on his hands but it does indicate next week….finally.

     https://www.interest.co.nz/property/109549/government-says-next-weeks-housing-policy-announcement-will-be-part-stick-part
   • Muttonbird 1.5

     20 March 2021 at 5:54 pm

     Given the ever changing situation I'd say they are waiting to see what happens now the rate of returnees and their foreign cash is slowing, and the money from the Covid wage and business support is drying up. Demand side might have had its throat cut.

     They've shown they don't want to make decisions on this unless as a last resort because it scares the horses so much whenever anyone suggests tampering with the golden egg of property investment.

     It's just Mums and Dads giving it a go, don't you know. They've worked so hard all their lives and deserve to not pay tax on property gains, just like the next man. This is New Zealand, after all.
2. Anker 2

   20 March 2021 at 9:52 am

   • AB 100+++++

   an issue that is concerning me is the gender self I’d bill.

   I think this will mean anyone can change their sex on their birth certificate, no questions asked. I get the process trans people have to go through is very difficult, but that is the nature of their predicament, ie they want to change sex because the sex they were born feels wrong for them.

   but the gender self I’d bill opens up entry into women’s domains eg public toilets, for anyone and there is nothing to stop pedofiles, sex offenders and rapists changing their sex to become a woman. Of course these people can choose to transition and go through the process as it is the become a woman, but that in itself is somewhat protective against predictors using it to gain access to women and children.

   I do think it is absurd that anyone can change their sex on their birth sex certificate no questions asked and I am interested to hear others views on this.

   someone called Grace Miller posted a link with comments from trans activists the other day that showed comments from them saying kill all terfs, really nasty stuff. Grace if you are around can you let me know what country those trans activists were from? I am scared to talk about this issue (not on this forum where I can be anonymous, but in public because of the potential for threats of violence and vitriol
   • RedLogix 2.1

     20 March 2021 at 11:14 am

     After a decade of being firmly informed that gender is nothing more than a 'social construct' and that human biology is of little to no importance – I must confess to watching the logical conclusion of this ideology being played out both confusing and sad.
     • Anker 2.1.1

       20 March 2021 at 11:51 am

       • Yes it is all sad.

       if gender is a social construct (which I don’t believe), then that would surely mean that boys who are born male and brought upas boys would remain men, because it’s all socially constructed.

       if we support diversity and I do, the men who transition to women are trans women. They have a very different experience and have different biology and still maintain an advantage of strength. The are different from women who are born women, have wombs female anatomy etc. trans women are different from women but different doesn’t mean inferior. It means different. Still worthy as people.
       • Rosemary McDonald 2.1.1.1

         20 March 2021 at 3:19 pm

         Trans women are trans women. Trans men are trans men. Simple, really.
         • KSaysHi 2.1.1.1.1

           20 March 2021 at 6:00 pm

           I'm really worried about this too. The idea of a male prisoner/or about to be convicted suddenly declaring himself female to take advantage of being placed with vulerable women turns my stomach as much as a newly identified woman being forced into a male prison. There needs to be a clear demarkation and a pieces of paper don't cut it.
   • weka 2.2

     20 March 2021 at 1:26 pm

     one of the key points to get across to women in particular is that changing the law to make it easier for trans people will impact legally on women, but also socially. i.e. the culture will change as well as the legals. How women are allowed to set boundaries will be challenged. This is already happening overseas. It's complicated further by the push to allow non-binary people into women's spaces even if they are male.

     I say get across to women, because most women are supportive of trans rights (rightfully so), and don't realise that there is a conflict of rights here that needs public discussion. And those women are the ones that need to be talking about it before the law changes.

     The implications of the changes aren't well understood, in part because of the fast social changes that are happening that most people aren't keeping up with eg male bodied people identifying as women and doing no medical or even social transitioning. This means that any male person will be able to identify as a woman, or even as female, if they choose irrespective of if they are trans or not. It's not simply about official documents, this will be across society. The definition of trans is broadening too.

     It's also not well understood because of the intense pressure to suppress debate. People lose their jobs, careers, family and friends over this in the US and the UK.
     • weka 2.2.1

       20 March 2021 at 1:27 pm

       It's also important to look at the issue as a conflict of rights that needs a resolutio for *both sides. We can uphold the needs and rights of women and trans people, but only imo if we are allowed to talk about it.
       • Rosemary McDonald 2.2.1.1

         20 March 2021 at 3:17 pm

         Agree with 'look at the issue as a conflict of rights' and we need to be able to have these discussions without the shit-slinging that's been going on.

         What really rips my proverbials are headlines like…

         Man Gives Birth!!!

         Clearly rubbish and fantasyland stuff. Simply calling yourself a man doth not make it true, especially if you choose to suspend the blockers and get pregnant. It seems that for this woman being a man was a lifestyle choice, a passing fad. Unbelievable that such a person could claim on one day to have been 'born into the wrong body'/'assigned the wrong sex at birth', then on a subsequent day employ that same 'wrong' body to do what nature intended of that 'assigned' sex.

         We need to put in place protections for the words we use to describe biological sex (woman, female, girl, man, boy, male) and ensure that we all agree on the words that describe gender. And make damn sure that we know there's a difference between the two.
         • RedLogix 2.2.1.1.1

           20 March 2021 at 3:38 pm

           What really rips my proverbials are headlines like…

           Underpants or knickers?
       • Sabine 2.2.1.2

         20 March 2021 at 4:26 pm

         we are going to end up with two 'somethings' – Men and Others. And nothing much will change.
         • McFlock 2.2.1.2.1

           20 March 2021 at 4:46 pm

           The current list, as far as I can see:

           • Women
           • Men
           • Transwomen
           • Transmen
           • and, for people worried about bathroom signage, disabled.
           • weka 2.2.1.2.1.1

             20 March 2021 at 5:26 pm

             say that on social media and you will be schooled in why it is wrong, and if you persist you will be labelled a terf. If you're famous or have a large reach, you'll mostly likely experience some version of cancel culture. Otoh, the fact that you are a bloke will protect you somewhat. As Sabine said, nothing much has changed.
             • McFlock …

               20 March 2021 at 5:46 pm

               meh.

               The bathroom thing gave it away, I would have thought. Some of these labels can be subgroups or included alongside other labels, and signs on toilet doors don't stop the door being used by someone who doesn't suit that sign (from whatever perspective).
   • millsy 2.3

     20 March 2021 at 2:31 pm

     Probably the best thing to go would be to make the current process easier. I would also have the birth gender listed on the birth certificate as well, bringing into line with name changes and the legal fiction of adoption.

     I do not think changing gender/sex should be as simply as filling in a form online and using your credit/debit card.
     • Anker 2.3.1

       20 March 2021 at 8:05 pm

       • Thanks for your perspective everyone. Weka, I know we have had different opinions at times, but I really appreciate your point of view on this issue.

       yes women’s voices are being silenced by trans activists, with postings full of vitriol and death threats. In the 70s most men I knew heard our voices about the patriarchy and the impact on us.

       so much of the women’s movement has been tied up with our biology. A woman’s right to choice, contraception, the cervical cancer enquiry, maternity leave. Rape of women by men, undervaluing of women’s sports, in part because we are physically weaker.

       Mc flook, I take your point about toilets. However as someone who suffered an attempted rape in a public toilet, I am very uncomfortable with any person with male genitalia, male hormones, denser muscle mass and large height/frame being given freedom to enter female toilets. Public toilets are places where we are quite vulnerable.

       I know a male friend of mine who is quite tall was told at some sort of men’s group, to be very aware of what it’s like for women who is walking alone. Subsequently he acts accordingly.

       I would hope that men who are trans would also bare this in mind

       I AM ASKING PEOPLE TO WRITE TO THEIR MPS TO REGISTER THEIR OPPOSITION TO THIS BILL

       i have written. I am terrified that my name will be leaked and that I will face a huge backlash. I ll keep you all posted
       • McFlock 2.3.1.1

         20 March 2021 at 10:28 pm

         That is also part of why trans women do not want to be forced to use male toilets.
         • weka 2.3.1.1.1

           21 March 2021 at 12:06 am

           yes, this is the conflict of rights and needs. In the UK where there are male and female toilets, the female toilets are being converted to gender neutral and the male toilets are being left as is. There's so much bullshit in that that cannot be be wiped away by asserting that trans women need safe spaces too. Obviously they do, but why are women's rights being eroded to do that? You can treat that as a rhetorical question and I'll just quote Sabine again "we are going to end up with two 'somethings' – Men and Others. And nothing much will change."
           • McFlock 2.3.1.1.1.1

             21 March 2021 at 12:55 am

             Most of the gender neutral toilet complaints seem to be that blocks have been divided into toilets vs urinals rather than gender, e.g. the old vic.

             The argument seems to be that women can't use the urinals, so they only get 24 spaces vs the men having access to 42 (18 of those being urinals).

             Sounds bad, until one reads that the number of toilets was doubled in that reno, and half a dozen of them aren't stuck in the gents.

             Also saves front of house staff from trying to shut toilets to men for ten minutes to clear the queue outside the ladies (which was a thing that regularly had to happen at one venue I used to work.)

             I mean, the world being what it is there might be places that just swapped the women's sign with "unisex" and left the men's as is. Didn't see any examples, though.

             Come to think of it, the toilets in the theatre I'm involved with are unisex and wheelchair accessible. Little rooms with their own sink and door and toilet. No urinals whatsoever.
   • Jan Rivers 2.4

     20 March 2021 at 11:03 pm

     Great to see this issue getting an airing on here. I think the question is really the government's to answer. And it goes like this. We are being presented with self-id as a trifle. Nothing to worry about. A convenience for males who identify as women (and vice versa) to not have to go through the 'humilation' of having any criteria associated with their decision to be regarded as a woman. But looked at through my eyes is that the government is making the category of woman a contested category – based on a feeling when this has never been the case before.

     If women who have had an ontological category to describe themselves – by sex – that has served to lessen and to measure discrimination and to fight for inclusion in mainstream society then how can it possibly be right that that category is nullified without any public discussion and consultation, risk or impact assessment.\? How can it be possible that making the category into a category of self-identification will have zero or inconsequential impacts? Well the answer is it doesn't. If sex as a category is nullifed then doing this without a public consultation or explaining why it's also great for women is surely a fundamental departure from the Bill of Rights Act. Luckily there is a likely solution David Parker is currently putting through legislation to make governments who act against the Bill of Rights subject to a legal remedy. I think women and them men who support them need to take a judicial review on this issue.
     • weka 2.4.1

       21 March 2021 at 12:31 am

       Thanks Jan. That sounds a bit more promising than I'd been thinking. Nice summing up too. I'd add that there are two issues here: one the changing of sex as a category and two the suppression of debate. If what's being proposed is such a great idea why can we not talk about it?
       • Sabine 2.4.1.1

         21 March 2021 at 9:55 am

         because it ain't great.

         Women are beings with very particular 'side effects'. One is we are menstruating, then we fall pregnant and then we give birth.

         So we are now 'people who menstruate'.

         We are pregnant persons.

         And then we go straight to Mum. Lol.

         We are 'people, persons, Mums. We are never women. And if someone takes offense at say menstruating people being called people rather then women, they are called all sorts of things. And yet, only biological women will ever menstruate.

         but one bit after one bit, the discriptive word of 'women' is replaces by 'people, persons, others, but we are no longer mentioned as women. This however is not happening to men. And that is an issue, and the reason to me is simply not to elevate trans men or trans women, but to disapear and muddle us into one group. That will be the other group of, women, trans, disabled, others. All with less rights then men of course.

         In the french language men are “il” and women are ‘elle’. So a group of women doing something would be ‘Elles sont/font’ etc, and a group of men is Ils sont, Il font etc. But if there is one man in a group of women they suddenly become ‘ils’.

         Funny how that always works out in eradicating women as a group of people with their own set of identifiers and needs.

         ,
         • Sacha 2.4.1.1.1

           21 March 2021 at 10:25 am

           What do you call females who do not menstruate?
           • Sabine 2.4.1.1.1.1

             21 March 2021 at 10:41 am

             i have not menstruated since my womb was cut out due to cancer, but i would still call myself a women. Is that what you are talking about? Or are you talking about transwomen? I would call them women too, but again, that is just me.
             • Sacha …

               21 March 2021 at 11:38 am

               Yes, that is what I meant. I remember feminists of past decades strongly resisting defining gender by biology.
               • Sabine …

                 21 March 2021 at 12:08 pm

                 I really don't care about any such thing, if you want me to care about some stuff that some feminists or not feminists thought in the previous decades you must link to it for me to read so that i can understand where your thinking comes from, or else your comment is again just a wee little snark/reminder as to please define your view of women as a women and what consists of women. Besides, there are a heep of older women past meno pause who also don't bleed anymore, and i guess you would still call them women?

                 But the only people on this planet to menstruate, or get pregnant are still women. Not people, not persons, not anything else but biological women. So others maybe want to keep that in mind when they try to play gotcha games as to what is or is not a women. We are fairly easily identified.

                 Also i would call ‘females’ women. Just you know.
                 • Sacha …

                   21 March 2021 at 12:29 pm

                   I would. I cannot remember the whole reading list for the introductory Feminist Studies paper led by Rosemary Novitz at Canterbury University in the late 1980s but it was pretty comprehensive at the time. Some thinking seems to have done a 180 since.
                   • Sabine …

                     21 March 2021 at 12:41 pm

                     i was told at fifteen that women will get married and have children and thus don't need education. 🙂 – very early 80s.

                     Nothing has changed. We are still where we were then. It is just that those that are women, disabled, queer, trans, of color, intersex, they/them etc are all now 'other/people/persons/'. Rather then their own thing.

                     And all the 'others' will have the same few rights they had before. Only as much as they are granted by the ruling class who really don't care what you and i identify as. We are either cost centres, or profit centers. And once we internalise and understand that we may actually get the conversation to where it needs to be, what it means to be human, Ein Mensch sein, erst, und dann die eigen gemachte Idenditaet.
               • weka …

                 21 March 2021 at 2:46 pm

                 "I remember feminists of past decades strongly resisting defining gender by biology."

                 Feminists have rightly resisted biological determinism, which is an ideology that says because (only) women can bear children this is what they are for, or must do (the GCF view is that gender is wholly a construct designed to control the reproductive labour of women for the purposes of power holding men. I don't agree fully with that, but their philosophy does bring things into start contrast).

                 Also, the word gender can mean sex or gender ID, I'm not sure which you meant.

                 Acknowledging the reality of biological sex isn't biological determinism. We don't have to define women solely by biology, but biology is a core component of being female. This is why my position is that trans women are trans women. I'm good with trans women defining themselves as a separate class from men, as well as understanding how they differ from women.
                 • Sacha …

                   21 March 2021 at 5:13 pm

                   the word gender can mean sex or gender ID

                   Gender never meant the same as sex when I studied. One was biological and the other socially constructed. It was the only useful way to describe the variety of ways women experienced different cultures around the world.
                   • weka …

                     21 March 2021 at 10:47 pm

                     would be nice if we could go back to that.
           • weka 2.4.1.1.1.2

             21 March 2021 at 2:39 pm

             "What do you call females who do not menstruate?"

             Women.
           • Anker 2.4.1.1.1.3

             21 March 2021 at 9:59 pm

             females who don't menstruate are females, women. If they are too young to menstruate they are girls.
         • Anker 2.4.1.1.2

           21 March 2021 at 12:45 pm

           agree about the language Sabine. It is ridiculous and it takes away part of what defines us as women.
     • Anker 2.4.2

       21 March 2021 at 12:46 pm

       Wow Jan, that is helpful to know. Thank you.
     • solkta 2.4.3

       21 March 2021 at 1:20 pm

       It intrigues me how you try to define this an issue between "women" and "them men who support them" (sic) presumably against the rest of men when there are many cis women feminists driving change. These discussions mostly present to me as a split within Feminism.
       • weka 2.4.3.1

         21 March 2021 at 2:50 pm

         yes, there's definitely a split within feminism. And the left.

         Jan was saying that the women who aren't ok with self-ID being introduced without even talking to women about it (and the men who support those women) will be able to take legal action.
         • solkta 2.4.3.1.1

           21 March 2021 at 3:24 pm

           Jan was saying that the women who aren't ok with self-ID

           No that is not what she said. She just spoke of "women".

           I think women and them men who support them…

           She is talking about cis women as though they are a cohesive group when they are not.

           And she only made a vague assertion as to the relevance of the Bill of Rights. She didn't even say what section of the Act is applicable.
           • weka 2.4.3.1.1.1

             21 March 2021 at 4:11 pm

             "I think women and them men who support them need to take a judicial review on this issue."

             Do you think Jan means literally all women, or that she means the women who object to self-ID? Because if you think the former, you're doing #notallwhatever, and that would just be naff.
             • solkta …

               21 March 2021 at 4:17 pm

               I think she is trying to frame the issue as women against the patriarchy when it is not.
               • weka …

                 21 March 2021 at 4:24 pm

                 it is actually. The GCF central position is that exactly (not sure where Jan fits into that specifically). This doesn't mean all women agree, but it's a coherent and consistent political argument. You can disagree with that (feel free to make the argument), but it's not helpful to misrepresent their views.
                 • solkta …

                   21 March 2021 at 4:32 pm

                   So am i misrepresenting her views or not? You seem to be saying i probably aren't but then telling me that i am.
                   • weka …

                     21 March 2021 at 10:49 pm

                     I think you are. Jan can say what she meant, but imo you are saying she is trying to obscure the fact that women/feminists are divided over the issue (I don't think she is, I think you are reading something that isn't there). You also said her framing was wrong, I disagree, I think her framing is consistent with GCFs views.
       • Anker 2.4.3.2

         21 March 2021 at 10:09 pm

         What is a cis woman? Who coined this term? I am a women. End of story.

         I hear trans women saying they are real women. Guess what, I have never thought of my self as a real women. I am a women. I was born female because I had female sex genetalia, which is because I have XX chromosome. Men have an XY chromosome. There are some very rare exceptions.

         By allowing any man to change their sexual identity on their birth certificate worries me greatly. Whoever the women who support this are, they have failed to understand that this will mean there is nothing to prevent, rapists, sex offenders and paedophiles from changing their birth certificate to say they are women. If you can't see this is a problem, then please re-think it through.

         Women who support this change cannot be aware of the radical trans activists and the bullying that has been going on when women speak up on this issue in the UK and the US.

         Men wanting to be women, isn't women's problem. We have enough to contend with as it is.

         And by the way when I have met trans men or women I have always been pleasant and respectful as I do when I meet any new people.
         • Sacha 2.4.3.2.1

           21 March 2021 at 10:25 pm

           there is nothing to prevent, rapists, sex offenders and paedophiles from changing their birth certificate to say they are women

           Why on earth would they bother? Being men is not stopping them.
           • weka 2.4.3.2.1.1

             21 March 2021 at 10:52 pm

             Self-ID will give a legitimacy to men in women's spaces that doesn't currently exist. That men already abuse those boundaries is not a good reason to open the boundaries and give them a way to have a free pass. I don't think the issue is the birth certificate so much as the social/cultural change that is happening as legal self-ID is brought in. It's already getting hard for women to run women's only spaces. There are activists in the UK who want all sex based rights removed at the legal level. That's not only about trans people, that affects everyone. Men of course are generally less concerned about that change than women.
             • Sacha …

               21 March 2021 at 11:49 pm

               Self-ID will give a legitimacy to men in women's spaces that doesn't currently exist. That men already abuse those boundaries is not a good reason to open the boundaries and give them a way to have a free pass.

               Are you saying that trans women are men?
               • weka …

                 22 March 2021 at 12:21 am

                 no, I'm saying that non-trans males will take advantage of self-ID.

                 There are additional issues around TW access to women's spaces that are segregated on the basis of sex not gender. And non-binary males, there seems to be this idea that they should have access to women's spaces too, which I've yet to see a good explanation for.
                 • weka …

                   22 March 2021 at 12:27 am

                   for example, there's a general increasing problem with men videoing women in changing rooms and toilets (as tech make this easier to do). In the UK department stores have started saying that men who ID as women can use the women's changing rooms. Do I really need to explain how this increases access for offenders?
                 • Sacha …

                   22 March 2021 at 8:34 am

                   So trans men would be welcome in safe spaces defined by sex rather than gender?
                   • weka …

                     23 March 2021 at 1:06 pm

                     that would be up to them. Where it conflicts with other groups' rights, then there needs to be discussion about how to manage that (rather than the the suppression of discussion that's been going on for years now).

                     I can see TW and women sharing some spaces for instance, and then each group also having sex segregated space. The problem currently is the dismissal of women's rights and needs and the dismissal of biological sex category as important.
         • solkta 2.4.3.2.2

           21 March 2021 at 10:39 pm

           Oh, so you are only disrespectful when you write online. Denying somebody's identity is about as disrespectful as it comes. There are good reasons why this subject generates anger.

           I see the transgender thing as basically where the homosexual thing was forty years ago. Back then there was still a significant number of people who still believed that homosexuality did not really exist as sexuality and that it was only a fetish or a mental illness that needed therapy. Most people today accept the fact that some people are gay and that is just the way it is. When the likes of Brian Tamaki roll out that bigotry now most people roll their eyes, have a bit of a laugh, and carry on.

           There is a lot more to human biology than genitals and chromosomes. Brains are also biological.
           • weka 2.4.3.2.2.1

             21 March 2021 at 10:53 pm

             will you call a woman cis when she doesn't identify as that?
           • McFlock 2.4.3.2.2.2

             21 March 2021 at 10:58 pm

             This latest restatement of old arguments over the last few days is very tiring. Been generally trying to limit my exposure this time, on the basis that it's the last blast before the legislation changes. It's the anti-smacking thing all over again, I'm hoping.
             • Anker …

               21 March 2021 at 11:16 pm

               False equivalence mcflook and whoever suggested it the homosexual law (which I have always supported). I don’t think the majority of women have been consulted about this at all.

               also from what I have seen women who have contested it get taken down with death threats and vitriol.

               It’s a bit nearer, although not the same ifI decided I was a different ethnicity, say Maori. If I really felt that was my identity. I don’t think that would be accepted. My partner is Maori and while I am Whanau I am pakeha, definitely not part of the tribe.
               • McFlock …

                 21 March 2021 at 11:26 pm

                 Because trans activists don't get death threats and vitriol?

                 The other day a NZ trans woman I follow on twitter was talking about how a NZ "gender critical" organisation had linked to people doxxing her. So it goes both ways.

                 As for the level of consultation all around, keep telling yourself that – it's a common refrain for the less popular side. Don't worry, as the legislation nears, it's tailor made for the nats to go consulting all over the place. Get a really good rabble going. The Tamakis will do their part, too.

                 Then we'll see if "most" people still give a damn.
                 • Anker …

                   22 March 2021 at 10:47 am

                   I am sorry to hear about this experience. Excuse my ignorance, but I don't know what doxxing means. Who were the gender critical organisation.?
                   • McFlock …

                     22 March 2021 at 12:08 pm

                     It means publicising someone's personal information, especially on a forum where the only reasonable expectation is harrassment of the person, their family, and their employer.

                     And no, I'm not going to name names, because that would:

                     • A) simply continue the damage caused by that organisation's actions; and
                     • B) be irrelevant to the main point that this stuff happens in both directions.
             • weka …

               22 March 2021 at 12:31 am

               ironically, it's tedious as fuck having left wing men still and again telling women how to do our own politics. Calling us bigots might be new, but the lack of support when it doesn't suit the menz isn't. I guess what's also new is that it's so up front now, but it still beggars belief and I’d love to hear an explanation of the progressive philosophy that trans people are entitled to equity and justice but women suddenly aren’t.

               I'd really encourage you to follow some of the left wing GCFs on twitter. I don't have a good sense of how this is going to play out in NZ, because we're very different than the UK, but the first thing to understand is that there are progressive women with strong class analysis who are saying, hang on, there are issues here. Many of them were previously very supportive of trans issues.

               And yes, the right will play this like an easy fiddle. This is going to harm the left at time when we really can't afford it.
               • McFlock …

                 22 March 2021 at 12:56 am

                 I follow one or two. But as soon as shit like "men dressed as women" comes out, the follow stops. Turns out that really thins the number of follows.

                 Sure, I've chosen a side. I made the best call I could. My own position has evolved. I've listened to trans women and trans men (like the ones mocked in this thread), I've read and reread the more considered responses of some GCFs. I've been to talks from paediatricians talking about how to engage with and treat trans youth. I've listened to the parents of trans kids, and their journey.

                 I'm not an expert, but neither is this just a trivial knee-jerk position I've taken with zero thought.

                 And I speak on the topic because it's been requested, as an indication they're not alone.
                 • Anker …

                   22 March 2021 at 10:49 am

                   Who are the trans women and what was the mocking?
                   • McFlock …

                     22 March 2021 at 12:12 pm

                     Who, specifically, have I listened to? yeah, nah. Not going to open them to harrassment or me to identification.

                     As for the mocking, this comment is dripping with it.
                 • Anker …

                   22 March 2021 at 12:39 pm

                   Ok, I was wanting to check that you didn't feel I had been mocking because that is not what I intend. I realise I probably don't have the right language for these discussions.

                   I think its fine for you to put your point of view across as a man. You have obviously put a lot of time into finding out stuff.

                   However, I think the voices of women need to be heard and prioritized.

                   I think Weka has framed it quite well. That Trans women and women who were born and raised as women and have internalized very different

                   messages about themselves and their identity need to be prioritized. You will never know what it's like to live with the fear that we face everyday and live with our bodies. That is our experience.

                   I also want to let you know how the language being used about women in some quarters, wherever it comes from, I find de humanizing. People with vaginas, people who are menstruaters, Terfs, Cis women.

                   Terfs is a perjorative term, meant to shut down and stigmatize women who have a different point of view.

                   You may have been going through this debate for some time, but I am knew to it. My main objection is the gender self id bill and the language being used about women with the xx chromosomes biology. As I said I find this dehumanizing and frankly insulting.
                   • McFlock …

                     22 March 2021 at 1:24 pm

                     No, as far as I can see you haven't been mocking anyone at all.

                     I certainly have no idea about the extent of your lived experience. Just as I have no idea about the extent of the lived experiences of trans people who have been assaulted because of their trans status as well as those dangers that face their transitioned gender.

                     Some of the terms used are malicious or dismissive. I have tried to get away from using "terf", for example, even though the only term in the acronym that seems like it might be inappropriate in some instances is "radical". But that's the call and using that term isn't conducive to productive discussion, so it's an adaptation I need to make. "Gender critical", on the other hand, seems to me to be far to… sterile? It sort of reduces the position to an abstract debate on identity, rather than the desired outcome of stating who should use what door and the ability to confront and humiliate someone who doesn't seem to match the label.

                     I've always viewed "cis" as simply meaning "not queer" (i.e. non-LGBTQITFTvTs…). Mostly as a tool for describing my own perspective, what I have experience of and not. "Cis man" basically replaces a massive paragraph.

                     The thing about XX chromosome biology is that not every woman has it. Sure, dramatic cases might be very rare indeed, but they exist in NZ. Often having been crudely "corrected" by surgery as infants. I've met some of them. Making biological sex binary in order to debate transsexual issues is simply repeating the assumption that led to those surgeries. It strikes me as paradoxical to ignore someone else's existence in order to protect one's own identity.

                     I have a lot of time for you and Weka. I do try to take on board your comments, with possible exceptions if I'm tired/grumpy/having a stupid day (for those instances, I apologise).
                 • weka …

                   23 March 2021 at 1:10 pm

                   yeah I find the men in dresses thing both bigoted and really unhelpful to discussion. Unfortunately the definition of trans being broadened so that it does now cover men in dresses (cross dressing men rather than say males with gender dysphoria or males with a strong sense of femaleness internally to the point of identity), or the male prisoners trying to ID their way out of male prisons or into women's prisons. I cut the GCFs some slack on this because on twitter shorthand is often a necessity, and many of those women tried for years to talk more evenhandedly and have given up. But there are plenty of bigots in GCF and GC twitter.
                   • McFlock …

                     23 March 2021 at 2:02 pm

                     transsexual/gender vs transvestite?

                     Especially confusing as trying to negotiate social mores can make transvesticism(sp?) as sort of "cover story" for someone who wishes to fully transition – Eddie Izzard comes to mind.

                     The prison thing is definitely a problem, but it's a security problem. If someone's a danger to other prisoners, as shown by their history, don't put them with vulnerable prisoners. Doesn't matter if they're in the same building.
           • Anker 2.4.3.2.2.3

             21 March 2021 at 10:58 pm

             Actually Solkta, I feel the gender self I’d proposed law disrespects my identity.

             I am a woman. I have a woman’s body. I have XX chromosomes. I once menstruated, had children, have female hormones, went through menopause, am a smaller stature than men and this is all part. Of who I am. So too is my personality. I talk more than men, because overwhelmingly women use more words that men. I have been socialised to think more about relationships and be more empathetic. The proposed bill tells me that is irrelevant cause any man can be a woman. They don’t have to transition. AsJan said earlier that nullifies what being a woman is and I find that very hurtful.

             What did I say that denied anyone’s identity? I know there are people who feel they are the wrong sex and want to transition.

             Sacha why sex offenders might want to bothe changing their sex on their birth certificate so that when the go to prison, they go to a women’s prison. Or they get to be in a women’s ward in a hospital. Or can’t be challenged when they use female toilets, or get to go to female only workout areas in gyms, saunas, changing rooms. There would be a lot of secondary gain for these men.
             • Sacha …

               21 March 2021 at 11:57 pm

               I know there are people who feel they are the wrong sex and want to transition.

               They are transitioning gender.

               I hope you find peace without denying other people theirs.
               • Anker …

                 22 March 2021 at 8:43 am

                 That is a nice sentiment honestly it is Sascha.

                 but it’s not really the point. I feel my identity as a women is under attack. My biology is being reduced to being a menstruater or a person with a vagina. If I raise concerns about this I am called a reef. I am being told I am a cis woman. Where did this term come from? I didn’t agree to it. I have huge concerns that men will use the gender I’d bill for secondary gain. I read of the experience of women and lesbians overseas being canceled, losing their jobs, having the nastiest vitriol thrown at them. It’s happened here too, someone I know participated in an event stand up for women event and on her fb page someone wrote I hope you die.

                 I also experienced a very nasty assault on a public changing room. I want to preserve those spaces for women.

                 so no not a lot of peace for me.

                 And actually I feel for people who are transitioning. And people who are in men’s bodies who identify as women I will respect that when I come across them. But I don’t support the idea that they change the sex on their birth certificate. No questions asked.
                 • Sacha …

                   22 March 2021 at 9:35 am

                   My biology is being reduced to being a menstruater or a person with a vagina.

                   But who is doing that? Does not seem to be trans women.

                   I also experienced a very nasty assault on a public changing room.

                   Sorry to hear that. Was it by a man?
                   • Anker …

                     22 March 2021 at 10:59 am

                     I am taking your comment about my assault is genuine. Thank you.

                     "Your question "was it by a man?" I must say has a bit of a gotcha feel.

                     But anyway I will do my best to answer. The person who attempted to rape me was of male statute and had a male voice, wore male clothing. I assumed he was a man, although he wore a white mask with black line drawn on it. I am pretty sure he had male genitalia because when I tried to hit him in the balls, I felt what I think was his testicle. He then punched in me in the face. The adrenalin was really pumping in my body and so I tried to pull his mask off. That is when he panicked and struggled to keep it on. While that was happening I managed to escape.

                     The idea of people being able to self id as women, no questions asked,and legitimately be in a change room or womans toilet terrifies me. If you believe that some men who are sex offenders want try and do that and have legitimate access to women and girls getting changed then I don't think that is considering women.

                     I

                     If you think not having the gender self id bill will mean transitioning women can't change their birth certificate at some point, then that is incorrect too.
3. Graeme 3

   20 March 2021 at 10:05 am

   The tourism industry was the focus of two speeches by ministers yesterday, one a pathway to the future, and the other a cautionary tale from the recent past.

   In Queenstown Stuart Nash outlined the Government's near future aspirations for the industry,

   It include four main principles:

   • Resetting and rebuilding tourism to be more sustainable, as the industry cannot simply return to business as usual.
   • Ensuring Aotearoa is seen as one of the world’s most aspirational travel destinations.
   • Recognising that costs and negative impacts associated with tourism must be mitigated or priced into the visitor experience so ratepayers and taxpayers are not bearing the cost of hosting visitors
   • More partnership between the government and the tourism industry, including with businesses and workers.

   Mr Nash said the industry could not return to the status quo, but that would not mean hard-hit communities would be left behind.

   "Regions heavily reliant on international tourism, dare I say it overly reliant on international tourism, should have a range of alternatives, because we don’t want to be in this situation again," he said.

   Probably not what a lot of operators who didn't see this disruption coming wanted to hear, especially those who had been appropriating the commons and domestic products to sell at profit to the highest payer. But also what many operators and communities have wanted to see for a long time.

   Meanwhile Damien O'Conner was talking to farmers at the Field Day in Fielding. In it he presented a cautionary tale about not getting too cocky during the good times and then getting caught out in the inevitable downturn. Sounds like he was pretty blunt. He hits the nail on the head here.

   Export sectors had to realise that they faced risks and needed to be humble, he said.

   “While we had warning signals through Sars of the possibility of pandemics and interruptions to international travel, it probably wasn't built into their business models,”

   The response from National's David Bennett was apoplectic

   National's agriculture spokesman David Bennett, who was at the event, said O’Connor’s comments about the tourism industry were “disgusting”.

   “The borders are closed through Government policy which they have no control over,” Bennett said.

   “They have been asking for a bubble with Australia for months and the Government hasn't acted, and then he blames the sector for getting cocky, it's disgusting, it shows he has no regard for what business is like.”

   Mr Bennett, businesses don't plan to fail, they fail to plan. Which is what happened to a lot in tourism. These comments typify the National approach to business planning, when things go wrong, Government handout. Seems rather strange that the pretty communists are now the party of individual and business responsibility.
   • Sabine 3.1

     21 March 2021 at 9:47 am

     Well looking at the panic last year, we can honestly state that the Government also failed to include any pandemic planning into their plans. Sadly the tax payer will always bail out the government and with it these Suits who in their life have no idea what the fuck they are actually talking about.

     “While we had warning signals through Sars of the possibility of pandemics and interruptions to international travel, it probably wasn't built into their business models,”

     This applies to the Government too.

     Btw, so we let tourism industry die – unless its rich lister coming to a rich listers event paid for by tax dollars.

     then we let the horticulturist die, after all i guess the minister can buy his fruit n wine from overseas, after all he is on a 200.000 dollar wage a year + perks and for that he don't have to do anything other then blame businesses for a locked up country and world.

     Who next? Who next do we not need to help because they should have two years of wages, of leases, of taxes, of licensing fees, and other compliance costs tucked away?

     Who?

     and who profits of this disaster capitalism?
4. Adrian Thornton 4

   20 March 2021 at 10:44 am

   I remember well over thirty years ago, taking leaflets from Uyghur activists, reading them and over the years wondering why the various New Zealand governments had never mentioned these poor people and their plight while we were all being encouraged to consume..no gorge ourselves on cheaply made goods of every description that we all well knew where often being manufactured in the most appalling of condition and often by children….from China our shining new trading partner…thanks Labour and Helen Clark!

   …cut to 2021, China now is a world super power, many of it's children who for the past thirty years have been diligently studying at western universities throughout the world have now returned home, in the twinkling of an eye China now not only has the largest manufacturing capacity in the world, it now also has the trained intellectual power to exploit it, next minute China has 5G technology and all that implies.

   And how has the west reacted to this new power base threatening their corporate monopolies, well one way it seems is to suddenly become aware of the plight of the Uyghur's, not because any western power base gives even the slightest flying fuck about the Uyghur's, no of course they have cynically co-opted this story only to whip up anti Chinese sentiment among their lazy thinking citizens.

   Unfortunately for the Uyghur, their new allies will only in the end sully and muddy the waters in the fight for their rightful cause….as I have said many times here "if you lay down with dogs you get up with fleas", though that being said I have no idea how much control the Uyghur have over who represents them on the world stage?

   This article make sobering reading….

   The ‘Independent’ Report Claiming Uyghur Genocide

   'It was brought to you by a sham university and neocon ideologues lobbying to punish China for U.S. interests.'

   https://consortiumnews.com/2021/03/19/the-independent-report-claiming-uyghur-genocide/
   • RedLogix 4.1

     20 March 2021 at 11:04 am

     Oh good. So no problem allowing independent journos and investigators into the region to have an extended and unfettered look about then. /sarc
     • Siobhan 4.1.1

       20 March 2021 at 12:27 pm

       …reading Adrian's comment he doesn't seem to be questioning that abuse of Urghurs occurs..it reads to me more like an observation of what we are willing to ignore when it suits our wallet…and how the second our stock exchange and supposed intellectual superiority falters we're more than happy to listen to crazy homophobes on a mission from God…whos research is based on cherry picked spread sheets…good causes being co opted for the wrong reasons is always problematic, because you can be sure, should the tide change this issue (and the Urghurs) will be dropped like a hot potato…as for "independent journos and investigators" I absolutely agree..unfortunately I'm not sure there are any that would meet the particular requirements and agendas of our western world leaders..

       "His widely-cited reports were not published in peer-reviewed journals overseen by academic institutions, but rather, by a D.C.-based CIA cut-out called the Jamestown Foundation and “The Journal of Political Risk,” a publication headed by former NATO and U.S. national security state operatives."..from Adrians link…in the unlikely event you didn't read it.

       from wiki…"A 2019 article in Frankfurter Allgemeine Zeitung (a liberal-conservative German newspaper) described Zenz's research methods on Tibetans as unconventional and exciting little interest in the professional world."

       Is there any other issue we would rally behind when the accademic paper isn't peer reviewed…from a guy whos day job is "with the distance learning focused bible college Columbia International University where Zenz also serves as a lecturer."
       • RedLogix 4.1.1.1

         20 March 2021 at 12:40 pm

         Interesting how often it's decided that because we disagree with someone on one thing (eg their views on same sex relationships), we therefore conclude everything else they say must be wrong.

         In other words leaping from 'Zenz is a bit of an extremist' to 'there isn't anything untoward happening in Xinjiang' is not an argument.

         The entire matter can be readily settled as I implied above – open, trusted investigation.
         • Siobhan 4.1.1.1.1

           20 March 2021 at 4:38 pm

           short of repeating myself…you seem to not be understanding the points being made.

           But sure, if what you take from our comments is…'there isn't anything untoward happening in Xinjiang'..go for it..
5. Adrian Thornton 5

   20 March 2021 at 3:17 pm

   "The entire matter can be readily settled as I implied above – open, trusted investigation."

   Aahh yeah, that was the entire point of my comment… now that US/Western corporate/govts/media have got involved for all the wrong reasons (seriously, do you think any of them give a shit about the Uyghur people?), and that they, as the investigation I linked to above quite clearly shows, immediately muddy the waters using their modus operandi of misinformation, propaganda and half truths, so having a "open, trusted investigation" on this subject becomes more and more difficult.
6. Muttonbird 6

   20 March 2021 at 6:08 pm

   Ultra-gammon and workplace bully, Jeremy Clarkson, underlines his own and his followers fading relevancy by revving up in The Sun about Meghan Markle.

   So fragile are they, the belief is she is trying to take down the monarchy. This mirrors the complaints from the alt-right the world over. That any challenge to white patriarchal dominance is to be crushed.

   I think she just wants to shine a light on the arcane structure of monarchistic Britain in the hope it will sometime get with the 21st Century.

   In claiming Markle will soon be on a Playboy's yacht, Clarkson has Diana-ised her. Perhaps he wishes her dead in a high speed car crash too…

   https://www.newshub.co.nz/home/entertainment/2021/03/jeremy-clarkson-unleashes-on-silly-little-meghan-markle-predicts-she-will-be-on-playboy-s-yacht-soon.html
   • mauī 6.1

     21 March 2021 at 9:59 am

     The YouGov poll data also says that since the interview Harry's overall favourability rating has gone negative for the first time ever. Suggesting that the UK public is probably more alt-right than you think and don't appreciate woke ideas infiltrating their institutions.
7. mauī 7

   20 March 2021 at 6:29 pm

   Yet another facepalm moment.

   https://twitter.com/SkyNews/status/1372951027947864067
   • Adrian Thornton 7.1

     20 March 2021 at 7:02 pm

     Yeah kind of sad and a bit pathetic when you watch this Biden ad first….
   • Anne 7.2

     20 March 2021 at 8:08 pm

     He fractured his ankle a short while ago and its still a bit on the weak side. How dare he sustain a common-garden injury and then trip up on it.

     Its the gallows for him. Nothing less. (sarc)
8. Muttonbird 8

   20 March 2021 at 6:52 pm

   Major strawberry grower Perrys Berrys calls it quits amid labour shortage.

   Sorry, Francie, you've had 12 months to come up with a plan to get your strawberries picked by locals. But you were waiting on the government to deliver foreign workers to you, cheap, like you always had.

   Question is, why in your eyes are local workers not as good as foreign workers? Such a mystery…

   https://www.nzherald.co.nz/business/major-strawberry-grower-perrys-berrys-calls-it-quits-amid-labour-shortage/EVV3WCSJJQBJUGZ4FTKPAJ56QE/
   • Rosemary McDonald 8.1

     20 March 2021 at 9:07 pm

     Strawberries…yum.

     https://www.stuff.co.nz/waikato-times/news/765478/Strawberry-growers-allay-spray-disquiet

     https://www.choice.com.au/food-and-drink/food-warnings-and-safety/pesticides/articles/strawberries-test-reveals-health-concerns

     https://ceres.co.nz/blog/dirty-dozen-the-most-pesticide-laden-produce-plus-clean-15-list/

     Question is, why in your eyes are local workers not as good as foreign workers?

     Perhaps the locals will still be around dealing with the rashes long after the harvest is done. I once did a stint at commercial strawberry picking. Wondered why some of the other pickers were wearing gloves and masks. Soon found out.
   • Sacha 8.2

     20 March 2021 at 11:51 pm

     Perrys Berrys calls it quits

     Couldn't happen to a nicer whinger.
9. Eco Maori 9

   21 March 2021 at 11:25 am

   https://youtu.be/qQfetkoGrpU
10. velcro 10

    22 March 2021 at 10:26 am

    I remember at the old Athletic Park, women regularly and cheerfully used the men's toilet.

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