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Open mike 20/07/2014

Written By: - Date published: 7:00 am, July 20th, 2014 - 139 comments
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openmike Open mike is your post.

For announcements, general discussion, whatever you choose.

The usual rules of good behaviour apply (see the Policy).

Step up to the mike …

139 comments on “Open mike 20/07/2014 ”

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  1. SPC 1
    20 July 2014 at 7:09 am

    In a team concerns are taken up with the people involved, there is no going to the media to backstab the party leader and sabotage the presentation of a united front.

    This ratbag is a nasty piece of work.

    If the Labour Party is to flourish in the future people like this will have to go from caucus.

    http://www.stuff.co.nz/dominion-post/news/politics/10287781/Skiing-holiday-puts-Cunliffe-on-slippery-slope

    • phillip ure 1.1
      20 July 2014 at 7:19 am

      @ spc..what is interesting/telling about that one..

      ..is that the mp’s named and cited/praised by this ‘unknown’ mp…as ‘hard-working mp’s’..

      ..are goff/king/shearer..(!)

      ..which does tend to lean toward it being a fully paid-up abc-er..who is this ‘unknown-mp’..

      ..and i’m nominating ‘chippy’ hipkins..as the moaner..(he needs to be asked:..’was it you?..’..)

      (mind you..i also think it stoopid that cunnliffe decided that now was a good time for a skiing-holiday-

      ..and a skiing-holiday in that centre of social-deptivation..queenstown..

      ..’what ho..!..chaps..!’..

      ..and way to go to get the struggling masses you are trying to entice to relate to you..eh..?..)

      • SPC 1.1.1
        20 July 2014 at 7:25 am

        Chippie is my local MP … when I read it I thought this was Mallard at work.

        As for Cunliffe, if the wife and kids are going skiing – does he not spend time with his family?

        • Tautoko Viper 1.1.1.1
          20 July 2014 at 8:03 am

          What makes you think that there is an insider?
          I think that this is just misinformation designed to denigrate Cunliffe in the eyes of the public. Audrey Young is a likely conduit for Crosby-Textor style malicious misinformation which is designed to pollute our democratic system. I call her out as a biased “journalist” . She should have to write a disclaimer at the end of any of her pieces.

        • phillip ure 1.1.1.2
          20 July 2014 at 8:09 am

          @ spc..’chippy’..or ‘ducky’…

          ..or any other one of those rightwing-ratbags..

          ..stick their pics on the wall..and throw a dart..

          ..they are all much of a muchness..

          ..the neo-lib hang-nail in labour..

        • David H 1.1.1.3
          20 July 2014 at 8:10 am

          I just E-Mail Moira Coatsworth over this continual undermining of Labour by the (Fab4) of wastrels, of my time, and Taxpayers money.

        • phillip ure 1.1.1.4
          20 July 2014 at 8:21 am

          when those labour volunteers were freezing their arses off running around putting up billboards..?

          ..yesterday morning..

          ..where was their leader..?

          ..wd snug and warm in q-town cover it..?

          ..he should have been out also whacking up billboards..

          ..and preferably in auckland..

          ..he wd have received wide media coverage had he done that..

          ..but he didn’t..and he didn’t…

          • veutoviper 1.1.1.4.1
            20 July 2014 at 8:50 am

            Phillip, before you start f…..g spouting off you mouth, find out the facts. Otherwise you are no better than those jonolists, ABCers, and others who are out to criticise and bring down Cunliffe and let Key remain in power.

            Cunliffe WAS out whacking up billboards yesterday. Here is a photo of him doing so – taken by none other than Patrick Gower (that great Cunliffe supporter not) and posted on Gower’s Twitter account.

            http://t.co/zsWoze48z9

            • phillip ure 1.1.1.4.1.1
              20 July 2014 at 9:01 am

              it doesn’t alter the fact cunnliffe shouldn’t have gone on holiday..

              (for tactical-reasons..the normal black-hole for media-coverage is in hawaii..

              ..so why the f… is cunnliffe not filling that gap/telling his/labours’ story..?

              ..labour moan about how little media-coverage they get..

              ..and they piss this golden opportunity up against the wall..?

              ..eight weeks out from an election..?

              ..really really hard to see the/any logic in that one..eh..?)

              ..and he should have been putting up those billboards in auckland…

              ..thus guaranteeing wide-coverage..

              ..only stalkers like gower wd b bothered tekking down to q-town..to watch cunnliffe at play..

              ..like i said..tactically that all both sucks and blows..

              • veutoviper …
                20 July 2014 at 9:03 am

                He WAS putting up billboards in Auckland – not Queenstown.

                • Lindsey …
                  20 July 2014 at 9:33 am

                  And the first day you could legally put them up was yesterday (Sat) and that is what he was doing.

                • phillip ure …
                  20 July 2014 at 9:34 am

                  the ..holiday…was..a..bad..idea…

                  • Ad …
                    20 July 2014 at 10:02 am

                    Actually no.
                    Three days, two of which he had flu, versus Key 10 days in Hawaii.

                    First duty of leadership is to yourself and to your family. No matter what.

                    Key understands that principle of leadership, and so does Cunliffe.

                    • phillip ure …
                      20 July 2014 at 10:22 am

                      spare me the crocodile-tears..eh..?

                      ..mp’s have the best holidays..bar none..

                      ..(that’s that one of their key ‘principles’ already well taken care of..eh..?)

                      ..and once every three years they actually have to do some graft..

                      ..end of story..

                      ..and they need yet aother feckin’ holiday..?..to prepare..?

                      .for those 8 weeks of ‘graft..?

                      ..cry us a fucken river..eh..?

                  • Pasupial …
                    20 July 2014 at 11:21 am

                    PU

                    Why are you incapable of admitting your error in this instance? Being an IMP supporter doesn’t mean you have to dis Labour at every opportunity. Save some bile for the Tories.

                    Also; could you at least be consistent with your idiosyncratic punctuation. Most people, including myself, use ellipses [ie; …] to denote a missing portion of a quote. You use twin-dots [..] and double spacing for some gonzo reason that seems like a good idea to you. Could you please stick to that? Otherwise it seems you are haphazardly missing chunks out of your rants – eg:

                    he should have been putting up those billboards in auckland…

                    ..thus guaranteeing wide-coverage

              • Bearded Git …
                20 July 2014 at 5:30 pm

                Phillip-you are trolling for the right now I am convinced. Pathetic.

                How can you equate 3 days skiing in NZ where Cunliffe would have been among and talking to voters with Key swanning around in Hawaii for 2 weeks.

              • Murray Olsen …
                20 July 2014 at 11:57 pm

                Phil lets facts get in the way as much as the Black Knight lets his wounds hold him back:

                http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zKhEw7nD9C4

            • The Al1en 1.1.1.4.1.2
              20 July 2014 at 10:04 am

              “Phillip, before you start f…..g spouting off you mouth”

              Too late, and just more of the same old tired anti Labour/Greens bollocks.

              Odd how a supporter of a 1.5% party knows what the major left parties should be doing.
              I’m calling it the little boy who cried bacon.

              • bad12 …
                20 July 2014 at 10:37 am

                Lolz, little pig, little pig, i had a couple of slices of one of the little pigs backsides with my tea last night, delicious,

                From amidst the dripping bacon fat i did spare a thought for the little pig that died as it was born to do providing me with a varied diet…

                • Colonial Viper …
                  20 July 2014 at 10:43 am

                  my very major regret is that the pig was probably not provided with livable conditions during the months it was alive, for the sole reason of fattening up the bottom line.

                • minarch …
                  22 July 2014 at 11:51 am

                  Dude

                  that was just fXXking weak (Bad not CV)

                  your coming off like nasty little child now………..

          • Vicky32 1.1.1.4.2
            20 July 2014 at 6:21 pm

            This is a good place to hang my ire at Petrick Gair (as he calls himself) creaming his jeans over Labour’s absurdly low figures on the 3 News/Research poll. I used to work for Reid’s on the phones with that poll, so I know how biased the questions are.
            Vicky

        • Murray Olsen 1.1.1.5
          20 July 2014 at 11:47 pm

          I’d say it’s either Mallard or some NAct black bag operative. Neither would surprise me.

    • Paul 1.2
      20 July 2014 at 7:33 am

      Dimpost’s article is worth a read.

      Extract…

      “I think what’s happening here is that Cunliffe is signalling that he’ll stay on as leader after the election. ‘Helen Clark lost an election and stayed, and look how that turned out.’ His mechanism for doing so is to bring allies into caucus using the party list. So his enemies – who are electorate MPs – are cheerfully sabotaging their party’s campaign to prevent any new list MPs coming in.

      What really gets me about this is that there are hundreds if not thousands of Labour volunteers around the country who are giving up time with their families to go doorknocking or leafleting or staff call centres for the Labour Party because they believe in it and its values, and all that work is being pissed away by the actual MPs, who obviously don’t.”

      http://dimpost.wordpress.com/2014/07/20/strategic-defeat/

      • SPC 1.2.1
        20 July 2014 at 7:40 am

        Paul, I thought Goff should have stayed leader after the defeat in 2011. The party was going to overhaul itself and he should have remained until the party had a process for selecting his replacement.

        If that had occurred, then whomever was selected – Shearer (when more experienced) or Cunliffe or Jones etc would have had a chance in 2014, and if creditable in their performance another go in 2014. And without all the drama and disunity.

        It was the experienced old guard in caucus who got this all wrong and then they resent the party for imposing another choice of leader on them.

        • phillip ure 1.2.1.1
          20 July 2014 at 8:12 am

          @ spc..

          ..nooo..!. to yr first line..

          ..and yeesss!!! to yr last..

          ..and who to blame for the dragging of the party back to the right..?

          ..after that all-to-brief ‘the workers’ flag is deepest red’ moment from cunnliffe..?

          ..who dun that..?

        • Ad 1.2.1.2
          20 July 2014 at 10:06 am

          Irrespective of Labour’s election result now, there is scheduled to be a “confirmation” as per the constitutional changes that were made a couple of years ago.

          If caucus really wants to gear up for that, I think they will find the activists geared up to Not Take Shit from the ABC club in any shape or form.

          • phillip ure 1.2.1.2.1
            20 July 2014 at 10:28 am

            that is good news..

          • Colonial Viper 1.2.1.2.2
            20 July 2014 at 10:45 am

            in an event like that, we’ll be taking the fight directly to the ABC’ers.

            • bad12 1.2.1.2.2.1
              20 July 2014 at 11:22 am

              i have this really really strange feeling that most of those commenting upon the Labour Party this morning view it through some strangely tinted shadze,

              The conversation seems to revolve around some magic wand being waved which magically transforms the old Dinosaur,

              My first suggestion is that you all ‘define’ Labour’s proposed Finance Minister, who from everything that He has uttered,(and might have wished He hadn’t), is, in my, firm, opinion, wedded firmly in His thinking within the Neo-liberal paradigm,

              From that position,(if you agree with the analysis), it becomes far easier to define the Labour Party circa 2014,

              Having said all that, i do not propose to do so, put a definition, a label if you will, on the current Labour Party, this close to the election such a debate is both futile and counter-productive to ridding the country of the Slippery little Shyster currently occupying the position of Prime Minister,

              (And yes, i have fully canvassed my and other’s thoughts about where that leaves us in terms of ‘a Government of the left’, such thoughts, again, are probably now best left until after the election)…

  2. phillip ure 2
    20 July 2014 at 7:23 am

    the harawira/harre/dotcom roadshow hits auckland today..

    ..@ 2pm this aft..at the kelston community hall..135 awaroa rd..sunnyvale..

    ..should be fun..!

  3. karol 3
    20 July 2014 at 7:38 am

    Paul Little, in the NZ Herald, has ago at Judith Collins. Also some praise for a Labour policy, along with a bit of a back-hander.

  4. Tautoko Viper 4
    20 July 2014 at 8:53 am

    Paul Little brings up the Te Reo in Schools subject. http://www.nzherald.co.nz/politics/news/article.cfm?c_id=280&objectid=11296233
    There is a lot of misinformation about this topic, and I get hoha (fed up) with the deliberate misconstruing of the truth.

    1. The aim is that any students wishing to learn Te Reo should be able to do so at their own school in this country.

    What is wrong with this aim? I know that in a very large decile 10 Auckland secondary school of about 1900 students in the 1990’s, those students wanting to learn Te Reo had to do it by correspondence school.

    1. At present there are not enough teachers of Te Reo to enable every school to teach Te Reo (so this policy cannot be implemented immediately and must happen over time as more teachers are trained.)
    2. It will not be compulsory for all students to learn Te Reo.

      It will (in the long term as teacher numbers allow) be compulsory for schools to OFFER teaching in Te Reo so that any student wishing to learn the language can do so at his/her own school.

    I think that people need to get used to the idea of LONG TERM PLANNING, something that has been absent in the last 6 years of Nat govt.

  5. big bruv 5
    20 July 2014 at 9:26 am

    Seen the latest poll comrades?

    David Cunliffe really is the best thing that has happened to NZ in a very long time.

    • freedom 6.1
      20 July 2014 at 10:03 am

      “the height of journalistic balance and integrity.” ?
      I for one, have never seen a single person ever state that, anywhere. Nor am I aware of any news agency on the planet that could even try to say that with a straight face.

      All coverage considered, it is far more balanced than most Network media out of America and Europe. Not sure what your language gifts are but I am mainly restricted to English language news, so cannot judge News services in other languages as confidently. This may came as a shock Gosman, but most people I know who regularly view RT, treat any story involving Russia with due caution.

      News services are just information, to add to all the other information, that you are then meant to consider and deliberate upon to reach your own understanding of events. Even Fox has information on occasion that is actually useful. Granted it is almost as rare as sightings of the Yeti but it happens.

      What you may not be aware of is that many viewers watch RT not for their news, but for their current affairs shows and for their excellent documentary screenings. Shows such as Cross talk, Big Picture, Breaking the Set, the Keiser Report, each of them strong well researched informative platforms where reality is allowed a sliver of sunlight. No news service will ever survive on an international platform if it tries to tell the truth about everything all the time. The advertisers would run screaming.

      • Scott1 6.1.1
        20 July 2014 at 11:52 am

        The trick is knowing where each source of information is biased or in other words where it’s conflict of interests are.

        RT clearly has a massive conflict of interest on any topic that interests Putin. To reference it directly on such a topic is to insult the intelligence of the listener.

  7. Ennui 7
    20 July 2014 at 9:39 am

    Gos, yes it is great that a journalist resigns rather than tell untruths or have to “spin” stories. If the same were true of the jornos working for the msm in NZ or on CNN tbey would have run out of jornos by now.

  8. Tiger Mountain 8
    20 July 2014 at 9:39 am

    This poll crappola really is getting to North Korean style Dear Leader levels. Will the roll of dishonour that is our media back off one wonders before the polls hit 98% for ShonKey?
    http://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/news/article.cfm?c_id=1&objectid=11296265

    • idlegus 8.1
      20 July 2014 at 11:52 am

      i actually have a screenshot from a stuff page from feb with the headline ‘national surge in the polls’, surely they should be at 70+% now if they have been ‘surging’ this whole time?

      • McFlock 8.1.1
        20 July 2014 at 8:17 pm

        lol
        And they’re “surging” a couple of points lower than the “govern alone” polls two months out from election2011.

        Turned out they could only implement their flagship policies with the help of an election fraudster.

  9. North 9
    20 July 2014 at 9:44 am

    That old fart Armstrong from the Herald should not have a job – from yesterday (capitals are mine) –

    “Dotcom must now prove FAR BEYOND ANY REASONABLE DOUBT that Key has lied repeatedly when challenged as to when exactly he became aware or was made aware of the former Megaupload mogul’s existence. If Dotcom cannot or will not do that, he should zip it.”

    What’s this standard of proof you’ve invented Armstrong ? FAR beyond reasonable doubt ?

    What’s that mean you fucking old idiot ? How FAR beyond ? Who says that ‘this’ FAR beyond (piece of string) is FAR beyond enough, or that ‘this’ FAR beyond (piece of string) is not FAR beyond enough ? You ?

    Honestly, this is writing reflecting the mental processing capacity of a child. Alternatively it is writing containing this promise – “Unconditionally, I Armstrong will NOT write that Key lied.”

    As a journalist is this old fart simply unartful or is he wilfully corrupt ?

    • Colonial Viper 9.1
      20 July 2014 at 9:55 am

      between this and Armstrong calling for Cunliffe’s immediate resignation over the 11 year old Liu letter, I think its time that Armstrong gets put out to pasture. That’s all he is good for now.

      • meconism 9.1.1
        20 July 2014 at 5:36 pm

        Just buy him another carton of fags the next time you pass through duty free. His emphysema will get him before Sept 20th.

    • McFlock 9.2
      20 July 2014 at 9:53 pm

      lol
      So Armstrong wants KDC to meet unreasonable levels of doubt? Sounds unbiased 🙂

  10. Pasupial 10
    20 July 2014 at 10:14 am

    I got an absurd tome of gibberish yesterday as a leaflet from the CP (conservative party, but also coincidentally; corporal punishment). 8 sides of A4 paper with Craig’s smirking face taking up half of the cover; which must be the only way he’ll ever get a magazine cover photo. The thing is actually glued rather than stapled together! The effect is rather ruined by it having been haphazardly folded to fit in the letterbox slot.

    They’re still going with the; “stand for something” slogan, which is still just as terrible. But they at least get specific about four key policies:

    1/ Binding Referendums (which I actually sortof agree with, but only if; there is a majority of all enrolled voters not just of those who who cast a vote and if; the questions are far more rigorously defined).
    2/ Flat Tax
    3/ Hard labour/ longer sentence for Prisoners
    4/ Māori bashing

    But it is the wording that really gets me:

    1/ “Pure Democracy… it’s why wars get started… what else are they looking to ignore? To think they won’t is madness.
    2/ “The only other reason [than Mallard’s Moa] we need to pay so much tax is to fund the Government’s vote buying programme… Don’t let anyone tell you we can’t afford a tax cut… Real money in the hands of those who need it and know what to do with it. Letting anyone else spend it is just lunacy.”
    3/ “Call us crazy… If we’re elected it’ll be because you wanted us to give the Government a backbone… How loony is that?.. Anything else is just crazy talk?”
    4/ “One law to rule us all [one law to find us, one law to bring us all, and in the darkness bind us]… Maori are treated as 2nd class citizens and victims [which] drives us nuts… Maori have been segregated by special laws and separate seats in parliament… Our wild and crazy thought?.. bring closure to the claims process… Nothing loony about that.”

    Note the frequent; “I’m not mad”, statements – he literally finishes every policy outline with some variant of that. Protesting too much methinks.

    • bad12 10.1
      20 July 2014 at 10:49 am

      i should start this comment with one of those ”i have supported Colon’s Conservatives for many many years” raves,

      Small blessings that Colon and the Conservative view a ‘nationwide’ leaflet drop as not extending South beyond ‘the Tron’

      Not getting to partake in Colon’s missive deprives me of the chance to stamp,stomp, spit upon it, with the final act a grand little display of pyromania as i burned it on the front lawn all the while laughing like a loon…

      • Pasupial 10.1.1
        20 July 2014 at 11:06 am

        Bad12

        I’m in Dunedin, so you may get your chance to defile the wretched thing soon enough.

        From the way it was rammed in the letterbox (the layout, printing and binding are all excellent – shame about the words), I assume that it was a commercial delivery subcontracted to some underpaid child rather than a committed volunteer. Maybe they’re waiting for the cheque to clear in your area?

        • bad12 10.1.1.1
          20 July 2014 at 11:40 am

          Lolz Pasupial, the letterbox stuffer of note round here at the moment is an old bloke who looks like He might be supplementing His pension via filling everybody round here’s recycle wheelie bins,

          i swear its unintentional, but, perhaps Freud might have other ideas, lately i have managed to ‘pop up’ from behind various bushes/the car at the point where He is ramming the junk into the box,

          Although i always give Him a ‘Thanks Pal’, totally not meant,(perhaps Sigmund would write an essay on this behavior), He takes one look at me and practically runs off up the street,

          Maybe, it being the weekend, the old boy has used His ‘initiative’ and burned the whole stack of Colon’s musings,(something i am sure Freud could have penned a whole tomb on), thus saving His legs for another day and leaving me unsullied from accusations of pyromania…

        • Rosie 10.1.1.2
          20 July 2014 at 11:46 am

          Pasupial, I didn’t see the pamphlet get delivered but I suspect they hired DX mail, the private mail company set up in opposition to NZ Post, to deliver the Cons pamphlets.

          There is no way they have enough volunteers to letterbox the country but they have the money to get a contracted delivery done.

      • Rosie 10.1.2
        20 July 2014 at 11:42 am

        “Small blessings that Colon and the Conservative view a ‘nationwide’ leaflet drop as not extending South beyond ‘the Tron’”.

        Oh really? I received a 4 page glossy nut bar rant in the mail, with ET on the cover, from the Cons.

        For entertainment on this rainy day I plan to put Colin in make up and jewellery with a speech bubble that will say “Giz a kiss sailor”. He will have pouty lips. This will then go in the green plastic see through WCC recycling bag, facing outwards so his sweet face is there for all the street to see.

        • bad12 10.1.2.1
          20 July 2014 at 12:11 pm

          Lolz Rosie, sounds like that one would make a good billboard to put up somewhere,(an online version if you know how to get it up on facebook???),

          There’s a totally insane, albeit thankfully small strain of thought that has me wishing that ‘the PinHead’ gets into the Parliament,

          i should imagine the power-rush to Colon’s head will make what happened to Nick Smith upon His elevation to Deputy Leader under Doctor Dullard Don Brash look like the teddy bears picnic in comparison,

          (PS, hows ‘that book’ going)…

          • Rosie 10.1.2.1.1
            20 July 2014 at 12:33 pm

            Funnily enough there’s a reference to sailors in the pamphlet. Something about the Government spending taxpayers money like “drunken sailors”. I must apologise to the adorable Julian Clarey as that is who Colon ended up looking like after my make over. I was actually going for the Amy Winehouse look.

            I don’t have the skills and am not on FB put there is huge potential for a nationwide campaign to lampoon Colon’s pamphlet. I went with his homophobic buzz but there is plenty of other material to produce multiple images of satire.

            Haven’t had a chance to continue with Tragedy at Pike River Mine, but hope to do so after I’ve whipped up a big batch of anzac biscuits this arvo.

            • bad12 10.1.2.1.1.1
              20 July 2014 at 12:57 pm

              i will be interested in what you make of the book in the way of ‘conclusions’ Rosie, if you have read the exchange provoked by our last discussion of your ‘read’ i will get around to,

              (a), Pointing out Strydom the South African electricians actual evidence which provoked the questions from Commissioner Bell to Him about ‘explosives’

              (b) White the mine manager at the time’s evidence surrounding the heavy smell of burned diesel,

              (c), the fact that Strydom the South African electrician used English as a second language which made parts of His evidence hard to decypher,

              (d),Commissioner Bell queried Strydom vis a vis ‘the smell being cordite’ and ‘the smell being diesel’

              What seems here to be an inconsistency in the evidence of Strydom when He describes the smell as being both of those things is in fact not,

              The two smells are ‘totally’ consistent with the use of ANFRO explosives which i will explain after you have finished the book,

              To understand ‘how’ these two smells, cordite and diesel, remained in the mine, after what we seen as a minute long expulsion from the mine of the ‘explosion’ on our TV’s will require an explanation of what occurs when such an explosion occurs in an open ended ‘tunnel’ or an understanding of where the residue from a discharged firearm ends up as opposed to the fired bullet,

              There is much yet to be discussed…

              • Rosie …
                20 July 2014 at 1:25 pm

                Yes, I did read the “exchange” triggered by raising the Rebecca MacFie book.

                And yes, I’ll let you know when I have finished reading and what conclusion I drew from the book as to the cause of the explosion, the first one. As mentioned, so far I can only see it as a disaster waiting to happen, a failure of management H&S of epic proportions to keep their workers safe.

                I take it you’re fully aware, after reading the notes from the R. C enquiry (I haven’t) of the consistent failures of management to address the serious and life threatening H&S that staff formally complained of via hazard notices? Serious question, just wanted to clarify.

                AS for that particular discussion between yourself, TRP and McFlock, as much as I understood and supported the technical elements they both raised I tend to shy away when things get a bit shouty and testosterone laden. Lols, I have enough problems in real life that raise my blood pressure, I don’t need to add to it.

                • bad12 …
                  20 July 2014 at 3:03 pm

                  Definitely Rosie, i fully understand the intricacies of ‘what happened’ at Pike River right form the point of the original ‘test drilling’ at the mine site,

                  This test drilling, accomplished via an above-ground drilling rig helicoptered into the National Park where the depth and actual make-up of the coal seams was ‘discovered’ by taking ‘core samples’ from various depths being the genesis of the actual mine was also not ‘up to industry standards’,

                  Whether there was any ‘deliberation’ in this ‘not up to industry standards’ test drilling will probably never be known, but, far far fewer test bores and samples were drilled and taken from the proposed mine than is the industry standard practice,

                  The above, the samples taken, lead the investors to believe that there was a far greater amount of highly valuable quality coking coal to be mined from there than was in fact present, and, from that point the litany continued on until the day of the first explosion,

                  As i pointed out in our previous discussion on the mine, by the day of the explosion,and, on days too numerous to count befor-hand, that mine was an actual Bomb, simply waiting for a spark to be struck in the wrong time and place,

                  i do not believe for an instant that ‘Management’,(in all its hues), could have failed to have known the above fact,

                  The fact that that mine was a ‘Bomb’ is i believe why in its short operational lifetime there were 5 statutory mine managers,(including Whittal), all of whom spent an inordinately short period of time holding that position,

                  (The Statutory Mine Manager carries the ‘legal can’ if something goes ‘wrong’, like an explosion, in the mine),

                  My question here of course, the same as asked in our previous discussion, is, considering ‘who’ must have known the dangerous state of the mine, did they get tired of waiting for the inevitable to occur???,

                  i have plenty of experience with test drilling/core sampling/drilling as a labourer for a well known firm of specialist drillers/pilers here in Wellington,

                  i have plenty of experience with explosives through work as a farm labourer many years ago and work as a labourer for a well known demolition firm here in the capital,

                  i could even tell you the recipe for making ANFRO explosives,(which in a family friendly show like this i wont), its qualities, its efficiencies, and, more important why i believe Strydom the electrician described to the Commission the smell of both Cordite and ANFRO,

                  ”The smell is yes with explosives” unquote,

                  Until i read the evidence of Strydom the electrician i like most other people believed that the initial explosion at Pike River was one of Methane Gas,

                  Now i question that, again with the question asked above, ”did person or persons unknown get tired of waiting for the inevitable to occur”…

                  • Rosie …
                    20 July 2014 at 3:39 pm

                    Thanks for taking the time. Looks like we both have the same awareness of the mine’s history and issues – up to the point where you question who knew of the dangerous state of the mine and whether they wanted to hurry up the inevitable. (Yes, as per previous discussion)

                    I still can’t entertain this idea, mass murder an’ all BUT you do have a working knowledge of explosives and know about the evidence given by the S.A electrician. I don’t.

                    But I will come back to it. Right now, I have that book waiting by the fire and a hot cuppa waiting…………

                    • bad12 …
                      20 July 2014 at 4:00 pm

                      Lolz Rosie, always interested in discussing this with other people, if anything i put forward as ‘fact’ isn’t how you see it from your readings feel free in future discussions to point this out,

                      There are also a number of ‘things’ that to me make Strydom the SA electrician ‘ a person of interest’,(and i use that phrase with deliberation), that i will try and canvas in any future discussion,

                      In His 28 years of mining, He had been at the scene of 6 mine explosions, and, it is His evidence initially to the Police which leads me to the belief that the initial Pike River explosion was in relative terms ‘small’,

                      He describes in His evidence his ‘confusion’ as to whether or not there had been an actual explosion in the mine because of the fact that in ‘large’ mine explosions in South Africa all the fire hoses, set out with spacing along the tunnel walls, were blown off the walls,

                      At Pike River, all the fire hoses remained firmly in their allotted places on the tunnel wall, indicating the blast had been relatively small…

                  • felix …
                    20 July 2014 at 7:02 pm

                    *ANFO

                    • deep throat …
                      20 July 2014 at 7:21 pm

                      dont argue with ‘morans’ f.

                    • deep throat …
                      20 July 2014 at 7:23 pm

                      they drag you down to their level and then beat you with experieince.

                    • bad12 …
                      20 July 2014 at 7:25 pm

                      Yep, a more clear set of initials would read ANDO,(and i would rather not be giving away any more of what that leads to for obvious reasons, although i am sure extreme inquiring minds wont have any trouble following the now obvious trail)…

                    • felix …
                      20 July 2014 at 7:32 pm

                      Bad, it’s probably the most well-known backyard explosive in the world. The recipe is two clicks away from anyone who cares to know.

                      You’re not guarding the chamber of secret wisdom, buddy.

                    • bad12 …
                      20 July 2014 at 7:59 pm

                      felix, definitely not, But, how would you feel if someone put 6042 plus a zillion together came up with a number called i am a dumb fuck, slapped together the recipe, did a whole pile of damage and then said they got the idea off of a discussion here….

                    • felix …
                      21 July 2014 at 4:48 pm

                      If you were really concerned about that you wouldn’t have brought it up here at all.

                • Te Reo Putake …
                  20 July 2014 at 5:12 pm

                  Hi, Rosie, testosterone point noted. It’s hard to be restrained in dealing with idiots, particularly ones who piss on the graves of the dead. And, yes, homophobes in particular do set me off, so sorry if it got messy. at the end.

                  Bad, just to touch on a couple of today’s misunderstandings, can I ask you have a look at a map of the mine? It’ll help you understand why Pike cannot be described as an open ended tunnel or why fire hoses a km or more away from the blast site and close to the entrance were relatively unscathed.

                  And as for claiming Strydom is a ‘person of interest’, why don’t you go to the cops if you have any evidence he was involved in mass murder? In fact, why not spell out the evidence for us now?

                  The fact is, you ain’t got no facts.

                  • Rosie …
                    20 July 2014 at 5:58 pm

                    Hey Te Reo Putake. No need to apologise 🙂 Testosterone laden arguments are a given at times on this site.

                    One of the other reasons I want to be restrained in my language and withhold speculations around Pike River, is for the exact sentiment you raise, The Dead. I want to have some respect for their memory and also to anyone of their friends, family or partners who may happen to be reading.

                    I’m getting many questions answered by reading MacFie’s book and appreciate that her writing style is sensitive to the weight of loss the community suffered.

                  • bad12 …
                    20 July 2014 at 6:38 pm

                    Laugh out loud, who would have thunk the liar in chief Te Reo Putere would have slunk belatedly into the conversation spewing abusive accusations,

                    The same Liar who carved out of Commissioner Bell’s questions at the Royal Commission 3 words from a question Bell asked and then deliberately falsely attributed those 3 words to Strydom the South African electrician simply so Putere the stranger to the truth could pretend ‘it’ had evidence that i was not telling the truth,

                    And this POS has the gall to upbraid me with claims of disrespect to the Pike River Families,

                    As far as the blast at the mine goes Putere, i am simply quoting from the evidence of Strydom the South African electrician, you have read this evidence so stop trying to spread bullshit among the readers,

                    If you want to dispute Strydoms reasoning as to why the fire hoses were not blown off the wall, feel free. but,

                    Unlike you, a pathetic wanker sitting behind a computer screen Strydom the South African electrician had 28 years mining experience which included being at the scene of 6 explosions in South African mines,

                    What’s your comparable experience Putere, wanking on endlessly on your computer…

                    • Te Reo Putake …
                      20 July 2014 at 7:04 pm

                      Boring, boring, boring. Just put up some evidence, why doncha?. ps, still waiting for you to apologise for inventing a quote or failing to provide the second quote from the manager, whose name, for the time being escapes you. Go on, try being a grown up, it doesn’t hurt.

                      Pike river was the biggest, most transparent enquiry into an industrial accident in kiwi history, with a clear case decision on cause and effect, and responsibility clearly sheeted home. It was notable for the quality and quantity of the expert evidence and the candour of the mineworkers and other local witnesses. All those people, none of whom has ever suggested anything as astonishing as deliberate mass murder versus one sad fuck. I’m with the miners and their families. You’re on your own, fool.

                    • bad12 …
                      20 July 2014 at 7:10 pm

                      🙄 🙄 🙄 i usually reserve them for ‘wing-nuts’ Putere(to the truth), must mean you have elevated yourself to the level of scum with your pathetic abuse…

                      PS, a hint for you: how many of those who gave evidence went into the mine after it had exploded, only one, Strydom the South African electrician,

                      i dare say the two who survived were not in much a of a fit state to be making notes of their surroundings as they staggered down the drift to safety…

                    • Te Reo Putake …
                      20 July 2014 at 7:15 pm

                      Sorry, bud, you’re clearly beyond self awareness. All the best with the fantasy. Ciao.

                    • bad12 …
                      20 July 2014 at 7:41 pm

                      Don’t call me bud Putere(to the truth), i despise cynical LIARS and you proved to me that you are one the other day by deliberately carving from a question by Pike River Commissioner Bell 3 words from that entire question which could not be mistaken for anything but a question about EXPLOSIVES which Bell was addressing to Strydom in a pathetic effort to point score against me,

                      That Putere(to the truth) is what i would class as disrespecting the Pike River families, everyone with links to those families and the Royal Commission,

                      Here’s some FACT for you Putere, the whole question from Bell to Strydom You carved those 3 words from,

                      Q, ”I mean Cordite to me isn’t a diesel smell, its more a smell to do with explosives, would–is that because of your South African experience with explosives” unquote Commissioner Bell,

                      And the words you carved out of Commissioner Bell’s question which you falsely attributed to Strydom trying to make a liar out of me which simply proves you to be the LIAR,

                      ”Isn’t a diesel smell” Lies from Putere unquote,

                      Here’s the first part of Strydom the SA electricians answer to Commissioner Bell just in case anyone missed it,

                      A,”The smell is yes with Explosives” unquote Strydom the SA electrician to Pike River Commissioner Bell…

                    • mickysavage …
                      20 July 2014 at 7:44 pm

                      Bad12 I appreciate the passion but you seem to attack people who are not of the right. TRP is solid working class left and PU is distinct but has a world view that should be respected.

                    • bad12 …
                      20 July 2014 at 8:12 pm

                      MS, you have your opinion i have mine, said in dark black writing by you or LPrent i will take a hint,

                      However, it is not me that butted into a conversation on the Pike River Mine explosion the other day it was Him and He was directly calling me a LIAR and then engaging in the behavior i outlined above which is simply cynical lying and using the Pike River Royal Commissioners questions to make up His cynical lies,

                      If you think that that is ‘solid left’ behavior well good for you, and my question is such behavior rife within the Labour Party probably wont go down to well,

                      Phillip Ure is another story, and your opinion of Him is noted, again, if the opinions you have so far expressed are writ in black writing i will obviously have to if i wish to keep commenting here take note,

                      Other than that MS, i will ignore your comment as it looks from where i sit to be an attempted censorship of me without addressing the equal behaviors of those i joust with in the comments,

                      TPR had no need to enter the discussion i was having tonight making the accusations he already made a couple of days ago, when he stops making such accusations i will stop responding to them…

                    • Te Reo Putake …
                      21 July 2014 at 8:16 am

                      Cheers, MS. Obviously, I’m not going to stop pointing out the homophobe fantasist’s bullshit, despite his using the bullying Netanyahu line. Luckily, the facts speak for themselves.

                    • bad12 …
                      21 July 2014 at 8:32 am

                      🙄 🙄 🙄 what your latest little tirade of abuse deserves, a whole page full of them…

      • Vicky32 10.1.3
        20 July 2014 at 6:49 pm

        “Not getting to partake in Colon’s missive deprives me of the chance to stamp,stomp, spit upon it, with the final act a grand little display of pyromania as i burned it on the front lawn all the while laughing like a loon…”
        I had the fun of doing pretty much that, and also with the others that blew out of letterboxes all the way down the road.
        How much did he spend on all this?

        • bad12 10.1.3.1
          20 July 2014 at 7:05 pm

          Lolz Vicky32, my sense of deprivation deepens, Colon’s ‘we are not fucking loonies you hear’ Conservatives have blown a bundle i should imagine,

          i think the total war chest is around 2.5 million with Colon dropping a reputed 2 million into the pot, what it actually cost to print up and distribute a nationwide leaflet drop i couldn’t even begin to address,(bucket-loads is my best guess),

          Lolz big ups on keeping your neighborhood ‘clean'(if i catch the letterbox stuffer going about His lawful trade polluting the hood i might offer Him at least a used tenner for His whole pile)…

    • greywarbler 10.2
      20 July 2014 at 11:14 am

      @ Pasupial 10.14
      I’m not mad’. Craig appealing to the daft opinionated who are agin’ everything and presenting himself as a Messiah going to usher in a new age of commonsense, government bashing a la usa fundamentalists and somehow more money for the deserving (not those others who are lazy and have warts) – and for the sensitive PCs I have warts!.

      • bad12 10.2.1
        20 July 2014 at 11:28 am

        Lolz, a cross between Peter ‘the Hairdo’ Dunne and Doctor Dullard Don Brash would perhaps adequately describe the politics of Colon ‘i am not fucking insane’ Craig then,

        The short form of the above description being, 🙄 🙄 🙄 ….

      • Anne 10.2.2
        20 July 2014 at 7:32 pm

        There’s an old saying which goes something like this:

        If you think you’re mad then your’re not. But if you are convinced you’re not mad then you are.

  11. tricledrown 11
    20 July 2014 at 10:27 am

    Philip you are on a permanent dreadlock holiday.
    Cunliffe has a family and has spent his money and time in his own country whilst HawaiiKey is spending his money and time is his home country.

    • phillip ure 11.1
      20 July 2014 at 11:34 am

      gee tricle..it didn’t feel like ‘dreadlocked-holiday’ when i started working this morn..@ 5.00am..eh..?

      (and this is what i have done since then.. http://whoar.co.nz/ ..some ‘holiday’..eh..?..)

      ..and do you have anyone who cd initiate you into the mysteries of the reply-button..?

  12. greywarbler 12
    20 July 2014 at 11:06 am

    What did Chester Borrrow? Whatever, I think he has had it long enough and should give it back. It didn’t work for him. He always seems unimpressive, and the latest about Coroners funding doesn’t inspire.

  13. joe90 13
    20 July 2014 at 11:35 am

    Dr. Izzeldin Abuelaish was born and grew up in a Gaza refugee camp, worked hard and received a scholarship to study medicine in Cairo, gained a diploma in obstetrics and gynecology specialising in fetal medicine and a master’s degree at Harvard and despite the daily humiliation of border control he went on to become one of the first Gazan doctors employed in Israeli hospitals.

    In January 2009, during Operation Cast Lead, three of his daughters and his niece were dismembered in their bedroom by an Israeli artillery strike.

    Izzeldin Abuelaish has since lived and worked in Canada and doesn’t seek revenge or retribution, he writes seeking peace and reconciliation. .

    http://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2014/jul/18/father-children-gaza-bloodshed-palestinians-israelis

    http://daughtersforlife.com/devdfl2013/our-story/

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Izzeldin_Abuelaish

  14. Northshoreguynz 14
    20 July 2014 at 2:30 pm

    Interesting column in the sst today by Nick Hager.
    http://www.stuff.co.nz/510500/Nats-secret-advisers-accused-of-dirty-tricks-in-Aussie
    Be interesting if any other news media picks it up. I suspect not.

  15. NZ Femme 15
    20 July 2014 at 2:42 pm

    Thank you Otago Daily Times, for the search terms.

    “…The naming in Australia this week of a high-profile Otago man whose identity was suppressed in the Dunedin District Court earlier this year – when he was discharged without conviction on an indecency charge – raises questions about the effectiveness of such court orders in the internet age. Timothy Brown reports…”

    http://www.odt.co.nz/news/dunedin/309904/digital-era-subverts-suppression

    • Tracey 15.1
      20 July 2014 at 2:57 pm

      slater will publish the name

    • SPC 15.2
      20 July 2014 at 3:11 pm

      The case raises the issue of grooming. Thus a danger to name suppression (as the former AB involved is old enough to be on super there is no real livelihood issue).

      Do some men become social friends of married couples and then at a later time make a grope for the women when alone with her – based on the idea that social friends and in particular married women will keep it to themselves.

      If she does not tell her partner, and social contact continues and she is unable to prevent being alone with him he tries again.

      When discussing this on another site, someone posted this thought

      “Many women don’t tell because all too often the male response is firstly ‘what did you do to let him think you were willing’? I’m sure for many it is probably a question asked to try and sort out what happened, but either way it makes the female feel that she must have done something wrong. Rape victims are frequently hounded by guilt that they must have in some way contributed to what happened. That they are too blame – which is a mindset that prevents many from reporting the attack – this is especially so with women (and some males) who are victims of sexual assault in the form of ‘groping’ etc.”

      If it is found that the person is a serial offender, (via case and name exposure) then it reduces the isolation (the why me) that the victim has.

    • Murray Olsen 15.3
      21 July 2014 at 1:13 am

      Derryn Hinch has written on the case, but says it is illegal for anyone in New Zealand to read what he wrote. I live in Australia, so I read it. It reminded me again why I’ve never been a fan of the All Blacks, and makes me wonder how much of a coincidence it is that rape and rugby both begin with the letter r.

      • miravox 15.3.1
        21 July 2014 at 6:58 am

        Thanks for that Murray, I’m not in NZ either, so found it and read it too. I’m not surprised in the least.

        • karol 15.3.1.1
          21 July 2014 at 7:50 am

          ODT says it’s not an offence for people in NZ to read the overseas post, but it is an offence to publish it in NZ.

          And it does not surprise me – re the name and the rugby connection.

  16. Ennui 16
    20 July 2014 at 2:51 pm

    http://www.stuff.co.nz/national/politics/10288851/MH17-Key-calls-on-Putin-to-step-up

    John Key tells Vlad how it is…”Go on Vlad, show some leadership! Fess up, it woz you guys!!”
    Vlad thinks to himself, “Run away and wet your pants little lapdog!”

    Meanwhile the families and friends of 300 mourn their loved ones. None of this is helping their pain and dignity.

    • deep throat 16.1
      20 July 2014 at 5:21 pm

      ra ra rasputin.

    • miravox 16.2
      21 July 2014 at 6:55 am

      True Ennui, and I wish we had a PM that whould have the guts to say similar to Netanyahu.

      But that’s right – NZ is all US-ian in foreign policy now.

      In Gaza the killing of innocents and the pain for their families and friends is just as real as in the Ukranian war zone. Al jazeera gives these people names .

  17. Molly 17
    20 July 2014 at 2:52 pm

    Surprisingly coherent article from Rodney Hide in the Herald today: Rodney Hide: Rape culture protects predators

    Apart from the obligatory snide opening, it reads like a different author.

    Usually only read him if I’m in a particularly balanced mood, and feel as if I can respond rationally to his rants and the comments from his fans. But today didn’t need to do that at all.

    • Tracey 17.1
      20 July 2014 at 3:10 pm

      it was patronising and reinforces the notion that women have to wait until some wealthy white man considers there is an issue for there to actually be an issue. I was put in mind that slylands might have written a siimilar thing but only after a woman he cared about was impacted.

      • Rupert 17.1.1
        20 July 2014 at 6:16 pm

        I think this story is more about nailing David Cunliffe than rape culture.
        Check out Whaleoil.

    • Stephanie Rodgers 17.2
      20 July 2014 at 8:38 pm

      Sounds more like “I’ll co-opt the phrase ‘rape culture’ then re-define it purely so I can attack people I don’t like” than any real understanding of the concept.

  19. veutoviper 19
    20 July 2014 at 4:11 pm

    Well, Kim Dotcom’s 15 Sept Auckland Town Hall meeting gets even more interesting.

    The Internet Party Twitter feed has announced that Glenn Greenwald (ex Guardian journalist who has released the Snowden revelations) will be there.

    • Chooky 19.1
      20 July 2014 at 5:03 pm

      F..k that is interesting!

      That is one heavy duty battery journalist

      http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Glenn_Greenwald

      Global surveillance disclosure:

      Greenwald was first contacted by Edward Snowden, a former contractor of the U.S. National Security Agency, in late 2012.[65] Snowden contacted Greenwald anonymously and said he had “sensitive documents” that he would like to share.[66] Greenwald found the measures that the source asked him to take to secure their communications, such as encrypting email, too annoying to employ.[65] Snowden then contacted documentary filmmaker Laura Poitras in January 2013.[67]

      According to The Guardian, what originally attracted Snowden to both Greenwald and Poitras was a Salon article penned by Greenwald detailing how Poitras’ controversial films had made her a “target of the government”.[66][68] Greenwald began working with Snowden in either February[69] or in April after Poitras asked Greenwald to meet her in New York City, at which point Snowden began providing documents to them both.[65]

    • Weepus beard 19.2
      20 July 2014 at 5:45 pm

      Perhaps it’s he that will deliver the oil on the prime minister’s spying regime.

    • Tracey 19.3
      20 July 2014 at 5:57 pm

      I dont do twitter so thanks veuto

      • veutoviper 19.3.1
        20 July 2014 at 8:09 pm

        Neither do I, Tracey. In other words, I am not a signed up user, but it doesn’t seem to stop me being able to read various Twitter accounts, and save them to my favorites to read. Or to google them and read them.

    • Colonial Viper 19.4
      20 July 2014 at 6:25 pm

      This is a real biggie. Armstrong and others who have been deriding KDC as wielding a fizzer, are fucked.

      • phillip ure 19.4.1
        20 July 2014 at 6:50 pm

        @ c.v..

        ..i stood on the edge of the stand-up dotcom did with the corporate-media @ the roadshow..

        ..and they tried that jeering approach..

        ..and dotcom just shut them right down..

        ..and was entirely believable/credible..

        ..leaving me certain he has the ‘goods’ on key..

        ..and his greenwald news stopped their whining about timing..

        ..dead in its’ tracks…

        ..’twas a delight to behold..

  20. phillip ure 20
    20 July 2014 at 5:19 pm

    the internet/mana roadshow in west ak went off like the proverbial rocket..

    ..very very cool it was..

    ..and the takeaway is that glenn greenwald will be one of the international guests at the dotcom ak town hall meeting..

    ..five days before the election..

    ..how cool is that..?

    ..greenwald has been a journalist i have admired since his very early on g.f.c.-warnings..

    ..and he will be helping dotcom dump on key…

    ..woo-fucken-hoo..!

    ..here is my greenwald-archive..

    http://whoar.co.nz/?s=greenwald

    • joe90 20.1
      20 July 2014 at 6:08 pm

      So what’s your opinion of the Glenn Greenwald who supported the Iraq invasion, said the US is exceptional and different, derided Argentinian ant-war protestors – These are hard-core Communists. Fidel Castro is one of their heroes., and described Venezuela as that country under the repressive thumb of Fidel Castro-copy Hugo Chavez ?.

        • Colonial Viper 20.1.1.1
          20 July 2014 at 6:28 pm

          Brilliant thanks Phillip.

        • joe90 20.1.1.2
          20 July 2014 at 6:46 pm

          In his own words.

          Despite these doubts, concerns, and grounds for ambivalence, I had not abandoned my trust in the Bush administration. Between the president’s performance in the wake of the 9/11 attacks, the swift removal of the Taliban in Afghanistan, and the fact that I wanted the president to succeed, because my loyalty is to my country and he was the leader of my country, I still gave the administration the benefit of the doubt. I believed then that the president was entitled to have his national security judgment deferred to,

          http://www.democraticunderground.com/100297462

          ( http://www.bookbrowse.com/excerpts/index.cfm?fuseaction=printable&book_number=1812 )

          Distorted media accounts notwithstanding, isn’t it painfully obvious what is going on here? These are hard-core Communists. Fidel Castro is one of their heroes. This has nothing to do with opposition to the war in Iraq or specific free trade agreements. Those are thinly disguised pretexts. These demonstrators hate the United States because they are genuinely opposed to economic freedom and individual liberty, and they seek to impose the collectivist authoritarianism of Fidel Castro onto the entire Latin American continent.

          http://glenngreenwald.blogspot.co.nz/2005/11/meet-oh-so-noble-peace-protestors-in.html

          As is true in U.S., the Latin American socialist agitators who have captured the attention and affection of the American media are as substance-less as they are inconsequential. They are lovers of Fidel Castro. The insist that the source of their severe economic woes is not their collectivist policies or national character, of course, but the evil economic policies of the U.S. At the same time, of course, they are furious that the evil U.S. is not providing them with greater economic aid.

          http://glenngreenwald.blogspot.co.nz/2005/11/reality-of-latin-american-reaction-to.html

          • Colonial Viper 20.1.1.2.1
            20 July 2014 at 9:32 pm

            Firstly, I think that it is important that you understand that people take time to under go their own political awakenings and maturation. At the time of the second Iraq War, Greenwald was in his 30’s and for the most part, believed in what he had been taught by the MSM to believe – American exceptionalism.

            Secondly, I think that you have taken some of his quotes out of context, albeit you have done us a favour by linking through to your source material. With regards to GW Bush’s wars against in Afghanistan and Iraq post 9/11 for instance, Greenwald goes on to say:

            It is not desirable or fulfilling to realize that one does not trust one’s own government and must disbelieve its statements, and I tried, along with scores of others, to avoid making that choice until the facts no longer permitted such logic.

            Soon after our invasion of Iraq, when it became apparent that, contrary to Bush administration claims, there were no weapons of mass destruction, I began concluding, reluctantly, that the administration had veered far off course from defending the country against the threats of Muslim extremism…

            And in the aftermath of the Iraq invasion came a whole host of revelations that took on an increasingly extremist, sinister, and decidedly un- American tenor. The United States was using torture as an interrogation tool, in contravention of legal prohibitions. We were violating international treaties we had signed, sending suspects in our custody for interrogation to the countries most skilled in human rights abuses. And as part of judicial proceedings involving Yaser Esam Hamdi, another U.S. citizen whom the Bush administration had detained with no trial and no access to counsel, George W. Bush began expressly advocating theories of executive power that were so radical that they represented the polar opposite of America’s founding principles.

            With all of these extremist and plainly illegal policies piling up, I sought to understand what legal and constitutional justifications the Bush administration could invoke to engage in such conduct. What I discovered, to my genuine amazement and alarm, is that these actions had their roots in sweeping, extremist theories of presidential power that many administration officials had been advocating for years before George Bush was even elected…

            Thirdly, Snowden examined in detail Greenwald’s suitability to be the journalist that he would go to. I believe that Greenwald’s conduct to date has proven Snowden’s judgement and trust in Greenwald, correct.

  21. cricko 21
    20 July 2014 at 6:32 pm

    We better hope that Kim can come through for us on Sept 15th.
    We’re relying on you Kim, please don’t let us down.

    You’r all we have now Kim.

    • lprent 21.1
      20 July 2014 at 7:36 pm

      Guaranteed to be irrelevant crap.

      Concentrating on a plan rather than mythology would be a good start.

      • phillip ure 21.1.1
        20 July 2014 at 9:21 pm

        @ lprent..

        ..u really think so..?

        ..this will be the snowden nz-drop..

        ..how is that not interesting..?

        ..i’m picking labour aren’t too happy about this..

        ..because the secrets exposed will not show the clark govt in a very good light..

        .and int/mana on 2.3% on tv3 poll..

        ..and they have only just started campaigning..

        ..and i have been to a few political meetings in my life..

        ..but this one was the most electric/alive..i have been to..

        ..there was a lot going on in that room..

        ..and the chemistry between harawira/harre/dotcom/sykes/minto etc..

        ..was almost palpable…

        .they all really like/respect each other..

        ,.,that much is very clear…

  22. Naki man 22
    20 July 2014 at 7:15 pm

    Three news says Cunliffe not ruling out working with Mana and co is hurting Labour in the polls, no surprises there. How is la la Harry saying she wouldn’t let Dot.Crim into NZ but she is happy to get her nose in the trough and take the proceeds of his crimes.

    • Weepus beard 22.1
      20 July 2014 at 7:29 pm

      What does 3 News know about what is hurting Labour in the polls?

      Laila Harre wants to change the government. Kim Dotcom wants to change the government. David Cunliffe wants to change the government. Russell Norman and Metiria Turei want to change the government. Winston Peters wants to change the government. More than half of New Zealand wants to change the government. Hope it happens.

      • ianmac 22.1.1
        20 July 2014 at 8:11 pm

        3 News asked in the poll if Not ruling out IMP was wrong and about half voted yes.
        I think David has said that it is unlikely that IMP would be at the Cabinet Table but wait and see what the electorate decide in September. If Key needed another 2-3% to win would he rule IMP out? They had better not ask!

        • Weepus beard 22.1.1.1
          20 July 2014 at 8:30 pm

          This has been covered in parliament itself has it not? Cunliffe asking Key to rule out pre election deals if Labour would do the same and Key backing down. News flash – Labour has always said no pre election deals while slippery Key refuses to commit to anything as he is constantly undecided as to what makes him feel most comfortable. Get some of that, Brook Sabin.

          I think the electorate is going to be surprised by Internet Mana. David Cunliffe is certainly not committing one way or the other. Our jokey, matey PM however just gives us a nudge and a wink on these things and no-one know where he stands. It’s the politics of confusion. Grey Warbler described it with his Macbeth quotes earlier today.

          Also covered by Simon Wilson slapping down National party embedded journalist Brooke Sabin on the Nation yesterday when discussing the same subject.

        • Zorr 22.1.1.2
          20 July 2014 at 8:48 pm

          Funny thing how the support for National is around 50%… and “half voted yes” to the whole not ruling out IMP. I think there may be more than just significant overlap there 😛

          Those who want a change from National would accept that deal in a heartbeat if it got rid of John Key.

  23. deep throat 23
    20 July 2014 at 7:19 pm

    write her a letter and ask her.

  24. Bearded Git 24
    20 July 2014 at 8:27 pm

    TV3 poll not too bad all things considered. Ignore Gower.

    Nats 49.4

    Lab/Gr/IMP/NZF 45.7

    Given that the Cons vote, 2.7%, is now likely to be wasted a 3% shift to the Left/NZF would be enough.

    A 7% shift to Lab/Gr/IMP would give the Left power. I know this sounds a lot but we are in the grip of the ridiculous MSM’s attack on Cunliffe’s brave “man” speech and even Gower is starting to say that IMP is going “up and up” and they have only just started.

    This election will go to the wire. I liked Cunliffe’s positive “we will come out fighting” on TV3 News tonight.

    • Chuck Bird 24.1
      21 July 2014 at 12:55 pm

      Cunliffe I am sorry to be a man comment are at least hypocritical in light of who he had lunch with. I would hope Labour and National could put petty party politics aside and change the law regarding permanent name suppression of those found or pleading guilty to serious sexual offending. This particularly repugnant when it is granted because of an offenders social status and/or political or legal connections.

      I is clear many on this blog know the sexual predators name. I am sure I am not breaching and order saying he is not an unemployed Maori.

      This is not the only current case. A kiddy fiddling Hawkes Bay lawyer has permanent name suppression. I do not know if I am in contempt by saying the bloody judge is an enabler. I do not really care.

      I would also say that all MP who do not vote for a law change on name suppresion are also enablers.

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