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Open mike 21/05/2014

Written By: - Date published: 6:33 am, May 21st, 2014 - 152 comments
Categories: open mike - Tags:

openmike Open mike is your post.

For announcements, general discussion, whatever you choose.

The usual rules of good behaviour apply (see the Policy).

Step up to the mike …

152 comments on “Open mike 21/05/2014 ”

  1. BLiP 1

    Prime Minister John Key’s Lies About GCSB

    Iain Rennie came to me and recommended Fletcher for the GCSB job

    I told Cabinet that I knew Ian Fletcher

    I forgot that after I scrapped the shortlist for GCSB job I phoned a life-long friend to tell him to apply for the position

    I told Iain Rennie I would contact Fletcher

    I haven’t seen Ian Fletcher in a long time.

    I did not mislead the House (13)

    I have no reason to doubt at this stage that Peter Dunne did not leak the GCSB report

    I called directory service to get Ian Fletcher’s number

    the new legislation narrows the scope of the GCSB

    the GCSB has been prevented from carrying out its functions because of the law governing its functions

    because the opposition is opposed the GCSB law ammendments, parliamentary urgency is required

    the increasing number of cyber intrusions which I can’t detail or discuss prove that the GCSB laws need to be extended to protect prive enterprise

    it was always the intent of the GCSB Act to be able to spy on New Zealanders on behalf of the SIS and police

    National Ltd™ is not explanding the activities of the GCSB with this new law

    cyber terrorists have attempted to gain access to information about weapons of mass destruction held on New Zealand computers

    the law which says the GCSB cannot spy on New Zealanders is not clear

    it totally incorrect that the Government effectively through GCSB will be able to wholesale spy on New Zealanders

    we self identified that there was a problem with the GCSB spying on Kim Dotcom

    the illegal spying on Kim Dotcom was an isolated incident

    The advice I have had in 4 years as a Minister is that in no way ever has there been an indication of unlawful spying

    the Ministerial Warrant signed by Bill English did not cover anything up

    first I heard I heard about Kim Dotcom was on 19 January 2012

    first I heard about the illegal spying on Kim Dotcom was in 17 September

    I did not mislead the House (14)

    I won’t be discussing Kim Dotcom during my Hollywood visit.

    The Human Rights Commission couldn’t get its submission on the GCSB legislation in on time.

    it would cost too much to for the police and SIS to carry out the spying on New Zealanders that this new legislation will permit

    critics of the GCSB legislation, including the Law Society, the Human Rights Commission, and the Privacy Commission, are all uninformed

    no, I did not mislead the House (15)

    I do not know how Mr Henry is conducting the Enquiry

    no, I did not mislead the House (16)

    the Henry Enquiry had permission to view Ministers’ emails

    no, I did not mislead the House (??)

    we do not spy on journalists

    the passing of phone records to the Henry Enquiry was an error on the part of a contractor

    I wasn’t aware that my own Chief of Staff was instructing Parliamentary Services to hand over information concerning journalist Andrea Vance

    National Ltd™ has never tried to impinge on the role of the media

    I had nothing to do with information on a journalist being handed over to the inquiry into the leaking of the GCSB report

    the terms of the enquiry made it clear to everyone that it was only the phone records of parliamentary staff and ministers that were to be provided

    I have the utmost respect for the media and the role it plays in New Zealand’s democracy

    the Henry Enquiry did not access a journalist’s building-access records

    the Henry Enquiry did not ask for phone and email records

    no, I did not mislead the House (17)

    the Greens are opposed to the GCSB and the SIS even existing

    the GCSB needs to spy on New Zealanders because there are al-Qaeda terrorists in New Zealand

    John Minto is in the Green Party

    the GCSB needs to spy on New Zealanders because of the terrorist threat, even though official reports released over my signature say there is no risk and the SIS has the matter in hand

    the GCSB Bill does not give the GCSB the power to look at the content of communications as part of its cyber-security functions

    no, I did not mislead the House (18)

    • good work..!

      ..i have reproduced/featured/headlined this @ whoar..

    • Rosie 1.2

      I replied on to this on the previous post but it’s worth repeating:

      You’re a hero BLiP! (And I see you were up to 1am compiling it. Whoah!)

      • Rosie 1.2.1

        (Oops, tripping up over words again. Darn things get under my feet some days)

        • phillip ure

          and why the american pronounciation of ‘whoah!’..?

          ..you know that here in nz..it is ‘whoar!’..?


          ..buy local..eh..?

          • Rosie

            lol you phillip. I do like the Whoar! But the Whoah! is a slightly different expression, one more of surprise.

            Whoah, also as in “putting the brakes on”, eg, “Whoah there boy, steady on”

            I do feel though, Whoar! does have building site connotations as well, as in “Whoar, check out the arse on that!” That aspect of it, kinda creepy and unwelcome eh?

            (note the spelling of arse. It wasn’t the American spelling: ass)

            • phillip ure

              aye..!..it could be a bit moustache-twirly..

              ..and what is it with americans and those bloody ‘z’..(zeds..or ‘zees’..as they wd say..)

              ..they take functional/attractive words like ‘realisation’..

              ..and they remove that most pleasing to the eye letter..the geometric/balanced ‘s’..

              ..and they replace it with the brutalism of the ever-ugly/sharp-edged ‘z’..

              ..w.t.f. is with that..?..

              ..there are no ‘z’s in nature…!

            • greywarbler

              Thank you philip and Rosie for the lexiconic, laconic and semantic discussion on words and their meaning. A big task to keep up on as it is estimated there are over 1 million in English alone.

              I went to Google to do some checking and see Mary Anning 1799-1847, fossil collector being honoured. The rise of curiosity and desire to learn at its height. Now we have dropping education paths to concentrate on the 3 R’s, the end of the age of curiosity and thought is being declared, and will be closed by the neo libs. They know all they need to keep them at or near the top of the pile of valuable symbols and artifacts made or thought up in the near-past by humans,
              and other beings and entities.

              • Rosie

                phillip and Warbs, have you seen the delightful and fascinating documentary series Fry’s Planet Word?

                I’m sorry, I can’t find a link to watch it on line, only the overview of the five episodes:


                Well worth a look!

                And yes, curiosity, wonder and learning for the benefit of enriching the individual isn’t part of the neolib world view – it’s absence is mirrored in education policy. Just look to dreary ol’ Stephen Joyce.

    • ianmac 1.3

      In response to “Iain Rennie came to me and recommended Fletcher for the GCSB job” that may be actually true. Of course all the other stuff that happened leading up to Rennie telling him could be true as well. It is just that a weasel can justify the first by ignoring the second set of detail. Misleading? Certainly.

  2. swordfish 2

    Blair Peach – from the latest London Review of Bookshttp://www.lrb.co.uk/v36/n10/david-renton/the-killing-of-blair-peach

    • greywarbler 2.1

      That is a very long and detailed account of what happened to Blair Peach. It is ironic as the right of people to speak and stand for parliament and foster disdain and violence against others is so strongly held to be an inalienable right when it goes against the principles set up for a fair society. And strange, further, that the forces of law and order wold feel it is appropriate for them to kill and injure people being menaced by the hostile political group.when they express concern or displeasure at such protection of the rights of the aggressive and violent political party, who are much worse than just being disagreeable or unfair.

      It is worth reading, remembering and learning. H..ler’s supporters attacked German people in the 1930s who disagreed with him and his cohorts. He didn’t just thrust up from the ground with a sudden stench that become the rage, that ground had been prepared by vigorous heavyweight activity and political moves over years.

  3. lprent 3

    Odd outage.

    For some reason there was a hell of a spike in traffic at 6:47 that blew the single server running over – died at about 5:50. Two other had servers started up in response but came online too slowly.

    It’d fallen back to the inadequate backup as it was meant to. This creates room for the new servers to get going. But I really wish chorus would get off their acre and install my fibre. I’ve been waiting for it for more than a year and the backup/fallover server is full spec and ready to go apart from the bandwidth.

    It’d nearly recovered itself at 7:04. But I took the opportunity to reboot the file server to get its upgrades in place. Meant that it didn’t go fully online again until 7:09

    I’ll have a look at that spike in traffic later when I take a break. These morning spikes are a problem. I think that they’re caused by the some bot coupled with a morning spike in readers, before the site puts extra servers online (which takes some time). I could fix it by a rule throwing more servers on earlier. But the issue then is that they often drop off because of lack of traffic. Big fallover server with tougher traffic controls is the best answer… Just have to wait for frigging chorus to get off their arse.

    Anyway, looks like an interesting day ahead.

    • Tracey 3.1

      thanks for all you do to keep it up and running. much appreciated.

    • The Al1en 3.2

      I’m guessing the e-spooks start at 6.30, have a 15 minute briefing and tax payer funded coffee, before hitting the web hard to catch all the naughty kiwi dissenters 😆

  4. amirite 4

    I see that the MSM is largely ignoring the information that has come out in yesterday’s Campbell Live show, hoping it’ll all go away. So the main story today is Jan Logie’s F-bomb on Twitter and the Speaker’s reaction to have been called a Mafia Don.

    • @ amrite..

      ..yeah..that one gobsmacked me..stuff/herald..nothing…

      ..they serve us well..our corporate/access-media..

      ..don’t they..?

    • Gosman 4.2

      Why do you think Radio NZ National is largely ignoring it? Perhaps because without something substantive coming out it is largely innuendo and therefore is a bit of a damp squib story wise.

      • Tracey 4.2.1

        how about you go through karols post and the show and write a guest post with your links and sources showing why it lacks substance and is not worthy of coverage or electorate consideration.

      • BLiP 4.2.2

        Heh! I love how our resident RWNJs are – when the facts are revealed time and time again – not in the least concerned about the intrusion of the state into the private affairs of its citizens.

        • Tracey

          apparently if rival media outlets missed something or dont go with something its prima facie proof its wrong. at least the nutjobs have moved from total denial to suggesting its innuendo.

          • vto

            I had a brief look over at Kiwiblog to see the comments….

            Fuck me it is like drunk yobs yelling stupid one-liners at each other in the pub and thinking they are having a debate about it… Their analysis and thought is nil.

            • Tracey

              the central bit is the pm comments about his communications with fletcher and later dotcom.

              remember how national made theowen glenn and winston peters all about clark? for months. but thats different.

        • Gosman

          Seems it is not only RWNJ’s that are unconcerned then given the fact this hasn’t created a media storm over the issue, not even in the media that many leftists like you love (i.e. Radio NZ National).

          • framu

            just how many times are you going to say that today?

            could you let us know so we can scroll past them to someone whos got something to say?

      • North 4.2.3

        Fake it up how you like GooseMan………ShonKey Python deliberately lied to Parliament numerous times about his knowledge of Dotcom. “Why ?” is a fair question, surely ? That Stuff/Herald/RNZ ignore this unexplained lying reflects executive resolve to keep veiled from the public at large the foul reality of our governance under the conman ShonKey Python. In that it appears that much of Campbell’s joining the dots has a base in OIA disclosure there may well be more to come GooseMan. Plus plus plus to Tracey@4.2.1. Come on GooseMan oh troubled blustering one…….let’s see your stuff.

    • Paul 4.3

      Yes RNZ’s selection and framing of stories becoming more corporate by the day.
      No mention of the GCSB revelations…instead a loooooooong leas story about sports match fixing.
      If this is what our public broadcaster deems important…..

      • Gosman 4.3.1

        Amazing how the VRWC can manipulate a State broadcaster so easily isn’t it. If only the left had it’s very own media outlets…

      • ffloyd 4.3.2

        Now, if it had been a story about Cunliffe not paying an outstanding traffic fine from ten years ago it would be a media outrage for at least three weeks. Can the gov’t put the mockers on a story?

      • Chooky 4.3.3

        yes and Guy Espiner still harrying like a yappy little dog at the heels of Winston over Brendan Horan

        ( crap stuff not worth a mention on National Radio in the context of every thing else that is going on with the lies and corruption in the National Party)

        ….hope the pants are sued off Espiner and Radio NZ over Espiner’s unwarranted attack on Winston Peters

    • Rosie 4.4

      amirite, I’ve suggested before that folks tune into the Thursday morning interview with Alastair Thompson from Scoop and Grant Robertson on Radio Active 88.6fm. It’s an insightful run down on the week’s political activities, and I really do recommend folks give it a go this week.

      Going by the Twitter activity that karol posted last night between the two mentioned above, I’m guessing Thursday’s 20 – 25 minute slot will be solely dedicated to discussing the information contained within the Campbell Live show. They usually discuss approximately 4 topics but when big things really hit the fan they will dedicate the whole segment to one issue.

      If you’re in Wellington tune into 88.6fm or listen online at http://www.radioactive.fm/

      • ianmac 4.4.1

        Bookmarked that thanks Rosie.

        • Rosie

          Just be aware ianmac, that it’s not RNZ, the DJ is a DJ and not a political broadcaster (although he is a shameless and proud Leftie) and there may possibly be some sweary loud songs preceding the interview, which by the way starts around 8.15am – (I failed to mention the time before) The start time depends on when they can get hold of Grant Robertson on the phone, he only makes it to the studio on the odd occasion.

          • greywarbler

            Thanks Rosie got all that and will try to remember to listen as I need to get some other perspectives than at presnt when some are out there worth hearing.

    • Anne 4.5


      Cunliffe confirms the revelations to be raised in the House this afternoon.

  5. “..Beagles Rescued From Lab Testing See Sunshine For The First Time..” (video..)

    “..nine beagles are rescued from a lab in Nevada –

    • and brought to a grassy backyard in Las Vegas –
    • so they can see sunshine for the first time..”



    • Half Crown 5.1

      Thanks for that Phil, that has lifted my spirits for the day.

    • Chooky 5.2

      makes you worry about the moral sensibilities of so called scientists who experiment on animals in the name of science

      • phillip ure 5.2.1


        ..they go to work every day..

        ..to torture animals all day..

        ..then they return to their homes/families at night..

        ..’the banality of evil’…

        • Chooky

          phillip ure ….i know it is bad to eat animals…but imo ..

          …a good life for a free- range animal and then a quick chop …and then to the dinner plate is not nearly as bad as

          …a life of very poor quality for an animal, confined inside in a cage, vulnerable , loveless and cold bloodedly experimented on……made sick, maimed, until it has served it s purpose …and then killed ….

          yes you have to wonder about the people who do this…it takes a ‘special’ sort of cold blooded person to do this in the name of ‘science’ and ‘humanity’ ……and i have to agree with you ..’the banality of evil’…

          …the people who do this to animals ( or find it acceptable to do this to animals) are also more likely to do this to people if they can get away with it

          • Enough is Enough

            Are you two the same person ( so hard to read)

            • Molly

              Persevere – it is an acquired skill.
              I enjoy both phillip ure and chooky’s styles – their voices come through clearly.

    • bad12 5.3

      Shucks such faux concern for animals Phillip, last week you were here extolling a link which claimed that your current addiction, pot, was the cure to various cancers,

      In the link the doctor in charge, Doctor Tashkin i believe pointed out that the results were as a result of testing on ”animal models”, you of course blinded by your current addiction fell all over yourself in the rush to have readers link to it,

      Perhaps you think Philip that by the use of the term ”animal models” the doctor in charge found some furry toy animals, infected them with various cancers and then pumped them full of dope,


      • phillip ure 5.3.1

        yet another teeth-gritting groin-stretch..

        ..from that one who groin-stretches so often…(heh..!..)

        ..(i do so hope he wears lycra..it could get ugly if wearing heavy cord/denim..eh..?..)

        • bad12

          No denials then Phillip,???, 16 pages of rubbish you linked us to all of it backed up by ”testing on animal models”,

          Here you are today tho pretending your faux concern for animals freed from such testing, Hypocrite…

          • greywarbler

            Oh leave off bad12 if your back is hurting – sorry but you definitely are a pain taking on like this.

            • bad12

              Nothing to do with my back or anything else ‘me’, if Phillip wants to publish hypocrisy then He deserves to be challenged on it,

              If you don’t like it, slide on by when you come across the handle ‘bad’, no-one forces you to read it and then whine on Phillips behalf…

              • and ‘no one forces you’ to specialise in false-equivalences..eh..?

                • bad12

                  A Hypocrite Phillip, extols one day the virtues of a product or effect of a product ascertained by the use of inflicting animals with cancers they previously did not have and then pumping them full of the product in question, in this case marijuana,

                  The Hypocrisy Phillip is glaringly evident when later that same person, You, carries on with a little anti ‘animal testing’ campaign of comments here at the Standard,

                  Sniveling Hypocrisy Phillip, that’s you and attempts at diversion change that not an iota…

                  • has anyone ever said to you..

                    ..’get a fucken grip..!’..

                    ..if not..they should have..repeatedly..

                    • bad12

                      Your latest comment is simply an exhibition of the low level of intelligence that you bring to the Standard on a daily basis Phillip,

                      It is simply a poor attempt at an insult best suited to that emitted by a 4 year old,(most of whom can manage a far classier riposte than your latest feeble effort),

                      Why not address the point made Phillip, that being the Hypocrisy of your anti animal testing stance in the above comment while last week you were extolling the supposed benefits of marijuana where the animals used in tests to ascertain these supposed benefits were first subjected to various cancers and then subjected to doses of marijuana,

                      Perhaps someone rescued these cancer riddled cuddly little critters to spend there days in pain in the sun Phillip,


                    • “.. the low level of intelligence..”

                      ..last time it was measured it was in the mid-140’s..

                      ..and you..?

                    • bad12

                      Laugh out loud material, still diverting Phillip,address the Hypocrisy you have been exhibiting over products tested upon animals wont you, and save the little dick waves of ”look at me i am a genius” for someone that cares,(which aint me)…

                      [How about I set up you guys with your own private post where you can scrap it out to your heart’s content? Your argument is distracting to the rest of us – MS]

                      [lprent: Title it “Heading to the divorce”? ]

                    • i was responding to/fact-checking yr ‘low intelligence’ slur..


                      ..and maybe you should just go and have another ciggy/neck some of yr cornucopia of pills/meds..eh..?

                      ..do something about yr shitty-liver..eh..?

                      ..or maybe yo could go out and harass random-pot-smokers..?

                      ..you could stand there..ciggy in hand..rattling from yr uppers/downers/screamers..

                      ..and yell at them that they are ‘addicts!’..eh..?

                      ..i mean..you do that here..why not in public..?

                      ..(yr pills needed as a result/outcome of that crap-diet/lifestyle you still so strenuously defend..


                      ..despite what it has done to you..


                      ..oh..!..and my boredom-levels have spiked again..

                      ..so you are back on ‘ignore’-status..again..eh..?

                      ..and..have you emptied that ashtray yet..?

                      [How about I set up you guys with your own private post where you can scrap it out to your heart’s content? Your argument is distracting to the rest of us – MS]

                      [lprent: Title it “Heading to the divorce”? ]

                    • bad12

                      Phillip, there you go again with lifting your leg for a little doggy squirt, this time you appear to have reacted by defecating as well,

                      The Fact, Phillip is that you have been caught out being a two faced Hypocrite over the issue of ”animal testing” and now refuse to address the issue i raise instead adopting a deflection regime of comment that addresses everything but the issue raised,(i expect the ‘wing-nuts’ to exhibit such behavior),

                      For you, i do not address my comments at random dope smokers, just you,
                      i do not have a bad diet which i defend, according to ‘the numbers’ from my latest blood test and my recent loss of 20+ kilos i have an excellent diet,

                      i do not take uppers nor downers and in fact the only pill i take at present is a magnesium supplement based upon the US research that shows that even with a high intake of vegetables US citizens because of modern farming practices have a high proportion of Magnesium deficiency and while no New Zealand studies are available i err on the side of caution as Magnesium along with Calcium are needed by the body in equal amounts to balance the bodies blood sugar levels,

                      i do not have a liver problem and i do not defend a ‘crap lifestyle/diet’ or i would not have spent a number of months changing mine,

                      Failed miserably again Phillip, perhaps now you would care to address your hypocrisy over ‘animal testing’…

                      [Shall I repeat my offer. How about I set up you guys with your own private post where you can scrap it out to your heart’s content? Your argument is distracting to the rest of us – MS]

                    • “..lprent: Title it “Heading to the divorce”? ]

                      ..it’s more at the restraining-order stage..

                      ..and as i said..i am over it..i am done…bored..

      • The Al1en 5.3.2


        Examples of the Benefits from Animal Research and the Animals Involved:

        Smallpox (cow) has now been eradicated from earth, Polio has been eradicated from North America and people in countries all over the world are being successfully treated (mouse and monkey). Insulin is now able to help control diabetes (dog, fish). There are vaccines for tetanus (horse), rubella (monkey), anthrax (sheep), and rabies (dog, rabbit). A short list, far from comprehensive, of some of the achievements made possible by medical research and the animal used to develop it[2]:

        An understanding of the Malaria lifecycle (pigeon), tuberculosis (cow, sheep), Typhus (guinea pig, rat, mouse), and the function of neurons (cat, dog).
        The discovery of anticoagulants (cat), penicillin (mouse), open heart surgery and cardiac pacemakers (dog), lithium (rat, guinea pig), treatment for leprosy (armadillo), organ transplantations (dog, sheep, cow, pig), laproscopic surgical techniques (pig), and a drug for AIDS treatment (monkey)

        • phillip ure

          an unbiased site u link to there..eh..?

          • The Al1en

            I’ve no idea about bias, just showing that animal testing for medical research has a benefit to mankind.
            Although I’ve no problem with breeding and testing lab rats (for example) if it helps find a cure for cancer or aids etc… I don’t accept the need for cosmetic testing for make up, soap, shampoo and the like.

            Would you refuse a polio jab for a child, knowing it’s been tested on animals?
            I put the life of a captive bred mouse well below that of a kid running free in good health.

            • Chooky

              depends on how you look at this issue….are humans really that much better than animals?…that we can use and abuse them? ( sort of shades of what happened in the concentration camps..ie people experimented on regarded as subhuman)

              ..if it is a human ailment/disease , why not with the permission of the human concerned …experiment directly on them?

              • The Al1en

                Hi Chooky.

                Perhaps we could get convicts or the unemployed to volunteer for experiments. Maybe all twins and red heads should be encouraged to sign up.

                Millions of human lives saved at the expense of a lower life form (yes, I said it) makes it a no brainer for me.
                Happy to agree to disagree, but when I’m sucking up cures, extending my life span with an improved quality of life, it’d be a lie to say the mouse was more important.

                • Chooky

                  The Allen…i hope you are not serious! re-“Perhaps we could get convicts or the unemployed to volunteer for experiments. Maybe all twins and red heads should be encouraged to sign up.” ( actually i think the poor are disproportionately volunteers in paid medical experiments as it is).

                  ..definitely NOT!..i did not say this! ( similar happened in Nazi Germany to certain groups of people…or rather they were coerced….and happens in China with forced a organ taking from ‘convicts’ or in many cases dissidents…)

                  …..what I am saying is if a person has a disease/illness then maybe if they are willing the experiment can be done on them…permission only…also people do donate their bodies to medical science….also there are many other ways of medical/scientific discovery/knowledge without testing on animals, making them ill, confining them in miserable artificial conditions or cutting them up and maiming them

                  • The Al1en

                    “The Allen…i hope you are not serious”

                    About the redheads and convicts and stuff, of course, what you think I am? lol

                    To me there is some merit to the idea of testing on terminal patients as part of clinical trials, as long as it’s suffering free and fully voluntary. Some may prefer to donate their bodies to science pre passing, but if I had a choice, I’d say guinea pigs and rabbits < Humans should go first during the initial test phase.

                    • Chooky

                      @ The Allen

                      …well with lack of proper accountability and liability( no long term studies , proper controls not used, not reporting adverse side-effects, suppression of adverse effects reports by the subjects, biased weighted reporting of positive effects, pharma companies protected from legal action by governments)…many so called medicines and vaccines are probably tested on humans anyway…just that it is whole populations of humans who are tested on …..and it isnt exactly with informed consent…and many of them are children …so the humans might as well be guinea pigs or rabbits anyway…you too may well be a guinea pig without knowing it!!!

                      Ayurvedic medicine , acupuncture or traditional dietary, herbal and homeopathic medicines however dont require animal testing

                    • The Al1en

                      I have a lot of time for alternative medicine, so much so, that if there’s an acupuncture or homeopathic cure for cancer, I’m all in.

                  • computer-modelling could do much of the work that currently over 300,000 animals are tortured/killed in aid of..each/every year here in nz..

                    ..but torturing/killing is much cheaper…

                    ..as always..follow the money..(pink-stained tho’ it might be..in this case..)

                • greywarbler

                  Perhaps some things could be tested on people. There could be resorts set up where people who signed up for testing could stay while it was being carried out. This would involve being paid well and having a

                  n advocate watching and ensuring that people weren’t mistreated. It might suit some older people to be tested on. Or some whole of life prisoners. Consider having chemotherapy – it is a personal experiment. So it is not something entirely different. There would need to be good controls though.

              • Murray Olsen

                If you were driving down the road and a human ran onto one side, and two mice onto the other, in a situation where you can’t stop in time, nor leave the road, who do you hit? Your philosophy says bye bye human, because two mice must be worth more than one human. If you think you’re not compelled to make that choice, why not?

                • greywarbler

                  I hate those conundrums. Would you save a full carriage of a train by pushing a fat person over the bridge onto the tracks to stop the carriage from crashing over a ruined bridge. There is a TINA approach, it never adds the person being asked to the mix of possible sacrifices.

                  • Murray Olsen

                    I don’t like them much either, but they do help people realise that issues aren’t as absolute as we sometimes like to pretend. My one was designed so that the driver can’t sacrifice themselves, whereas the train one would give me the possibility of throwing myself on the track. I’m a bit overweight anyway.

  6. RedBaronCV 6

    So ACC is going to make levy cuts. And at first reading guess who gets the benefits?
    Employers get a 20% cut to work levies but earners (that’s us as individuals- comes out with PAYE) get a 5% cut. Shouldn’t forestry go through the roof? Compensation paid for work v. non work accidents is roughly equal so lookee who benefits the most.

    Then there is the car levy. Newer safer vehicles will get a big levy cut, so you have to be able to afford that new vehicle. Older vehicles, owned by the less well off – nothing doing. No mention of mileage done by vehicles versus accident rates, poorer people/older cars are likely to be doing far less mileage (and less on the open roads), and therefore have less exposure to accidents than newer cars/ better off.
    So the levy registration rate per mile travelled will be much higher for the oldercar /poorer owner.

    And the rest is going to be spent lowering the price of petrol. So., if you can afford large tanks of petrol you’ll be a winner.
    All very regressive isn’t it.

    • Tracey 6.1

      thanks for this redb. do you know if forestry levels are the highest, and by what margin?

    • millsy 6.2

      It is the poor who own older cars so they are going to get bugger all in terms of cuts, while, as usual, the rich get the lion’s share.

      Not to mention the fact that if ACC is in such good shape now, they should be easing up on the long term claimants, bringing back free physiotherapy and scrapping the 5% hearing loss threshold for hearing aid coverage.

    • Will@Welly 6.3

      But wait – what about the ‘funding crisis’ when National came to power in 2008? Surely that wasn’t just an illusion, just to hike up premiums? Now in election year, they are about to drop them again, my oh my, what timing, a ‘nice’ hand-out, what a kind government, being so ‘prudent with our money’.
      Maybe this is the time they are preparing it for sale – Rebstock is in charge. A Nazi if ever there was one – how far up J.K.’s back passage has she crawled?

    • greywarbler 6.4

      Exactly. Very regressive.

  7. fambo 7

    I thought this quote from Glenn Greenwald being interviewed at Democracy Now! was interesting in regards to the missing Malaysian airliner as it indicates a capability for the NSA to listen in on phone and internet communications on airliners.


    Also, interesting is that in 2006 Boeing patented a system that, once activated, removes all control from pilots to automatically return a commercial airliner to a predetermined landing location.


    Not saying there is some sort of conspiracy as such, but this information does widen the possibilities of what could have happened to the airliner.

    GLENN GREENWALD: Yeah, I mean, you know, the reason why I published this story was because it reveals so much about how these agencies think. And, you know, the documents demonstrate that there have been tens—hundreds of millions, if not billions, of dollars spent to make certain that the NSA and the GCHQ can listen to any in-flight cellphone calls that they want, from those phones that are embedded on the seats in front of you, and, more importantly, to be able to monitor all Internet activity that takes place over the wi-fi service of a commercial jet. And they didn’t do this because there was a case where someone on a plane plotted something that they weren’t able to monitor. They’re not doing it because there are specific, targeted concerns. The reason they’re doing this is because they are obsessed with the idea that there might be some place on the planet that you can go for a few hours and communicate without their being able to monitor what it is that you’re saying. That shows the institutional mindset, which is there should never be a moment where you can develop the capability to go and speak without their surveillance net. And that’s the reason why they targeted airplanes as the one place left in the world, other than in person in the middle of nowhere, that you can actually speak or do things without their knowledge.

  8. ianmac 8

    I did search as far as my limited skills allow but I can find nothing post-Campbell about GCSB. Nothing??? Question Time today might produce something?

  9. Ergo Robertina 9

    One hundred and one Otago timber mill jobs go as Southern Cross Forest Products is wound up.
    Classic example of the short-term bottom line, fragmented, only their purpose is mad New Zealand malaise.
    Dunedin council-owned forests seeking artificially high market prices, bypassing local millers who couldn’t pay the inflated prices.
    New Zealand is the only country in the world that doesn’t add tariffs to raw logs, according to the union rep quoted in the ODT story. (I assume he means the developed world).

    • millsy 9.1

      And speaking of forestry, GWRC sold off the cutting rights to its forests last week 🙁

    • greywarbler 9.2

      Dunedin seems to be cursed with gold-seeking mad-for-business controllers who see themselves as business entrepreneurs arising from its council. They haven’t recovered from being the gold centre of the colonial days. Now the Council get their main activity from parking fines (my gripe from one of their stings) and the Otago University. And the albatross colony established as a result of long, sacrificial work by mainly one man. It needs to wake up to itself and go for small business incentives and innovations that are suitable for its size and affordable by what is actually a provincial town.

    • The Lone Haranguer 9.3

      Well the poor Dunedin ratepayers are already being hammered to death by their Council to fund the Forsyth Barr stadium. I guess the Councilors and their “advisors” felt they couldnt take two bites at them at the same time.

      • Ergo Robertina 9.3.1

        There will be fewer Dunedin ratepayers soon as a direct consequence of this timber mill closure.

        • Colonial Viper

          And Bell Tea closed it’s Dunedin doors a couple of weeks ago.

    • Draco T Bastard 9.4

      ”What the union is suggesting is that City Forests should take a lower price, make a lower profit, and pay a lower dividend to the ratepayers – so essentially, they are suggesting the ratepayers of Dunedin subsidise the jobs of the wider Otago sawmilling community.

      Meanwhile those same councilors will be complaining about how much unemployment is costing them.

  10. ultra-left 10

    david farrar’s attempts to redbait labour fall flat:

    • karol 10.1

      Thanks. The post is a very good read.

      Amazing that Farrar and some other right wing scaremongering bloggers want to keep re-cycling red scare rhetoric. As though the words “communism” and “Marx” are some kinds of nukes that will demolish the 21st century left.

  11. millsy 11

    Shane Jones gives his farewell speech to Parliament today.

    Suggest you brace for the fireworks.

    I still think that somehow equating whoring (sorry karol!) this country out to the oil and gas barons with Labour/working class values is completely absurd, and is totally misunderstanding of the events and circumstances leading up to the formation of the NZLP back in 1916 (ie mines in the late 19th and early 20th century were diabolical places to work in).

    • Will@Welly 11.1

      Should I take the stocks, and the tar and feathers down to Parliament to see him off in style, or will a simple kick up the arse be suffice?
      The ‘boy’ who liked to portray himself as a man of the people leaves to cosy up with his National mates. He joins a growing list of failed M.P.s

  12. Sanctuary 12

    One for the Standard debating society:

    We were having a planning meeting which involves a weekend outage and UAT testing. The contractor asks if we need to provide a bribe, and the project says yes. Contractor suggests a bucket of KFC, at which the project manager said that KFC would attract the wrong sort of people. I then called her out for casual racism. She got quite annoyed and accused me of “being PC”. I let it drop, satisfied I had made my point.

    Question: Was I being over sensitive or not? I think not – I HATE that sort of casual, unthinking classist and racist comment.

    • Colonial Viper 12.1

      Question in response to your question – who do you believe she was referring to as the “wrong sort of people”?

      • Sanctuary 12.1.1

        It was pretty obvious if you had been in the room who she was referring, stop trying to second guess the question.

        • grumpy

          No, I think CV asked a valid question. Are you sure you are not falling victim to your own prejudices?

        • Colonial Viper

          It was pretty obvious if you had been in the room who she was referring, stop trying to second guess the question.

          You’re a smart lefty. But sometimes I still don’t get this kind of comment. I’m asking because it’s obvious that I WASN’T in the room when she was speaking, if I had been maybe I would already know, so hence the (apparently verboten) question!!!

          • Rosie

            Exactly. It’s hard to make a judgement on the conversation when you don’t have all the info.

            KFC = “wrong kind of people” could mean all sorts of things, ethnicity, class, or just people with bad taste in food!. (I know a 10 percenter who almost lives on KFC so you could say that KFC doesn’t exclusively capture a certain demographic) It’s a dumb thing to say but to automatically assume ethnicity was at the heart of the remark is maybe jumping the gun?

            What about, instead of an accusation as a response to a stupid statement, asking the person who said it at the time “What do you mean by wrong kind of people?” It calls them out for stupidity and gives them the opportunity to clarify their prejudice.

            EDIT: Second oops of the day. Greywarbler already said as much below.

      • Zorr 12.1.2

        Should there ever be a “wrong kind of people”?

        It doesn’t matter who she was referring to, it’s still not called for and is in poor taste

        • greywarbler

          It seems to me that Sanctuary should have used the technique of naive ignorance and said to this “the project manager said that KFC would attract the wrong sort of people.” by responding “What sort of people are you referring to? I like KFC and am happy to have that to munch on, and when I got up this morning I was an alright person. And I vote for KFC.”
          Does it all. Makes a point about ‘the wrong sort of people’ and turns the prejudice about KFC having bad connotations on its head.

          Sniping about PC is just so yesterday. That tool for demonstrating and breaking through prejudice has become blunted by overuse and misuse to become as outdated and confining as a chastity belt. Assumptions about rightness and correctness based on somebody’s idea of PC are legion.

          While knowing that prejudices are likely to be in the air, why play that game? There are better, more useful ways of dealing with and diminishing it. It seems that some think it is PC-bad to actually do something thoughtfully and practically rather than emotionally, about quietly confronting prejudice and improving mindsets and approaches.

      • Colonial Viper 12.1.3

        Can lefties not answer a simple question for gawds sakes? Too PC? Some words too hard to pronounce on some days?

        I presume she meant brown people are often the ones attracted to KFC. Which I take offence to as an assumption, because just looking into a restaurant, Asians are often attracted to KFC as well. So if she considers me a “wrong sort of person” I will be doubly offended 😈

    • Colonial Viper 12.2

      PS only those of us who have worked in the tech industry before know what “UAT” is, other people might think it’s a kind of long shelf life milk…

  13. Colonial Viper 14

    Are you interested in how money is created in our economy and why 99% of people (including economists in Treasury) have it wrong

    Read this article. It’s a good primer. Then YouTube anything featuring Steve Keen, Warren Mosler, Randall Wray or Stephanie Kelton.


  14. ianmac 15

    Yesterday the questions to Judith Collins suggested more to come. How about this?:
    No 11. Hon MARYAN STREET to the Minister of Justice: Does she stand by all her answers to Oral Question No. 11 yesterday?

  15. ffloyd 16

    I hope JC is keeping a lookout over his shoulder today, you never know where those drones are. Ha ha.
    Squeaky has said (Stuff)he is comfortable with drone strikes as “for the most part drone strikes have been an effective way of prosecuting people that are legitimate targets” WTF. I bet today he would consider JC a legitimate target. Just a thought.

    • Rosie 16.1

      +1 Lol, yes, if JC disappears from our screens we’ll know who was responsible.

  16. greywarbler 17

    Prosecuting people are a couple of words that resonate with me. Our gummint can’t prosecute about Pike River, it can’t prosecute about the badly engineered building in Christchurch. The list goes on.

    The search and punish hostilities against baddies is so much easier when it goes on overseas and like Pontius Pilate our PM can wash his hands of the bloody mess that ensues from casualties over there, and at the same time do nothing and care nothing about the casualties right here who call from their graves for exposure of the causative event, punishment, and prevention from repetition.

    Repeat this, repeat this, repeat this, repeat this…repeat until at some future time, one hopes, we will somehow achieve a responsible government that has a mission statement formed to our requirements, and that works to it, accounting to us every quarter and presenting plans for the near and medium and long term future for the thoughts of those who wish to inform themselves, be involved and assist in decisions.

    • Rosie 17.1

      That abdication of responsibility to the victims of the CCTV building and the Pike River Mine should haunt Key (and all those in authority attached to those cases who also walked away) for the rest of his life. Except it won’t, he has no morals and therefore will be free of such regret.

  17. greywarbler 18

    It is interesting to read of the actions of another gummint, the Oz ones who in various states are raiding people’s homes looking for the drug nembutal which is being used by those who wish to die in their own time when they feel it is right for them to go. The Oz gummint isn’t known for being able to handle philosophical questions of sensitivity to their people, and when the Northern Territory decided to allow euthanasia, the Federal Government over-turned that state legislation.
    They come from the ‘If you can’t hit it with a hammer, then you can’t fix that problem’ school of unthought.

    Our gummint has turned down all efforts to set up an ethical process that allows for human dignity and respect for the person and their rights to their own life decisions in this intensely personal matter. No doubt it will follow the behaviour in Oz as default procedures set there or in the other 5 Eyes countries seem to rule us. And the All-Seeing Eye that rules them all finds that perspective reduces the individual to merely a small dot or even a blip on a machine. Life grows closer to the fiction of the Lord of the Rings each year.

  18. Molly 19

    What gives with the Herald comments?

    Often post comments soon after article, and despite that – they don’t get published until days after. Then of they do, comments cannot be viewed – such as those for Fran O’Sullivan: On-form Key a tough act for Cunliffe or protesters to roll.

    I’ve tried not putting links in, and keeping it short but neither has a difference. So for posterity, I am republishing the following comment (which was held back for days, and now published, cannot be viewed) via the Standard, which has a much better moderation policy. 😉

    …”The persona that I prefer to the one that he has created to make him accessible to all New Zealanders.”…

    “Many of Key’s opponents are sucked in by the Mr Average persona. The lazy speech patterns on display in Parliament where Key makes that loud slurping noise as he audibly sucks in his breath before launching into an “Aackshully … “.

    That leads them to underrate Key. They don’t see the amount of time he spends studying political leaders (George Bush junior with his decision points; tapes of Bill Clinton in the presidential years and even Xi Jinping).”

    Your admiration of the duplicity of our PM always surprises. Shouldn’t do after so long, but it is embarrassing to read – and almost makes me feel like a voyeur surreptitiously reading a young teenage woman’s diary crush.

    Are you able to provide the “analysis” your tagline advertises, or do we have to put up with a continuation of this lovefest forevermore?

    We all get it Fran — you love John Key. Everything he does – apparently even slurping – is adorable. In his eyes play the moon and stars… etc, etc, etc.

    Now can we get some good rational analysis?”

    … and yes, I was a bit grumpy when posting that. Should’ve followed my better instinct and not read the article at all…

    • greywarbler 19.1

      Is it length of comment? Is it the italics which are regarded as too sophisticated for the avrge reader? Or perhaps there are too many facts that have to be checked. And some truth that is perhaps actionable?

      Or perhaps the Herald takes the modern approach to simple process, and one method that simplifies process is having things on-line which are ephemeral and vanish, or get rerouted to murky State to be read by General disorder before being dispatched onwards.

      (One of the things that might happen and which cause me to look askance at fervent afficionados of all things web-based. For instance studies on on-line voting in the USA show that stranger disappearances and modifications and deliberate errors happen on a larger scale than when using paper.)

    • karol 19.2

      I was able to view this comment from you. It’s necessary to click the button below the last comment to bring up more comments – then repeat at the end of each additional comment… and again… til your comment comes up.

      It has this ID: “NZ Canadian – New Zealand – 02:26 PM Monday, 19 May 2014”

    • anker 19.3

      @ Molly 19. Brilliant response to Ms O’Sullivan. Sometimes both she and Claire Trevett are embarrassing to read. Sycophantic.

  19. shane who? decided he wd insult all his fellow labour mp’s..

    ..(even those who voted for him as leader..?..really..?..such a class act..!..eh..?..)

    ..have a final spray before walking out the door..

    ..so i thought it was past time he got some of that spray blowing back on him..

    ..so i tried to give him the send-off he deserves..


  20. fisiani 21

    21,350 people moved from Australia to NZ in last 12 months, according to @StatisticsNZ.
    The Cunliffe wants to cut this to 5,000. Bring back Shearer.

    • ScottGN 21.1

      That’s absolute bullshit and you know it. It’s precisely because more NZers are heading home from Australia (and given the carnage Joe Hockey’s unleashed there the trickle may well become a flood) that Labour is proposing to tweak current immigration levels to take into account movements of NZ citizens.

      • Colonial Viper 21.1.1

        and given the carnage Joe Hockey’s unleashed there the trickle may well become a flood) that Labour is proposing to tweak current immigration levels to take into account movements of NZ citizens.

        And which NZ government agreed to have Kiwis cut out of the Australian social welfare system so that many of them have no where to turn but to come home if they don’t want to end up homeless?

  21. Draco T Bastard 22

    After reading this I figure my max income of $100,000 isn’t too far off the mark.

    • Colonial Viper 22.1

      You’re totally hard core…I’m fine with a ratio of 10:1 to the minimum wage = circa $290,000 p.a.

      I think some jobs do deserve that level of remuneration (and few of them in the finance sector).

      • McGrath 22.1.1

        I’ve always though that CEO’s in the Public Sector should be paid no more than 80% of the PM’s salary. It seems crazy to me that a public servant should be paid more that the PM.

      • weka 22.1.2

        CV, out of curiosity, which jobs?

        • Colonial Viper

          Those who put their necks and reputations on the line to keep clean water flowing, sewage pumped, power supplied to the whole country, brain tumours removed, 2000 pupil schools running, who root out corruption, collusion and malfeasance in both private and public sectors, etc.

      • Draco T Bastard 22.1.3

        I think if we put in place a limited income range the ‘market’ will adjust around it in such away that someone with $100k income will be able to buy very similar stuff to what the present ~$200k income can buy. In other words, we’d see a compression of prices on top of the line stuff.

        • Colonial Viper

          Trinkets and toys have experienced deflation, in general. (Deflation imported from low wage countries like China). And 98% of people don’t care what the price of Ferraris, first class air tickets and italian granite is.

          It is the necessities, food, accommodation and energy which have sky-rocketed in price. NZ could in theory be self sufficient in all three. That is the mission for the next 25 years before it becomes too late.

    • TheContrarian 22.2

      So after seeing a figure that confirms your bias you find your bias confirmed.


      • Draco T Bastard 22.2.1

        Nope. I’ve considered for awhile that a few people are paid far too much but it was pretty much instinct as to what the range of income should be. The people I thought were were being paid to much are the essentially non-productive people – managers, CEOs and investment speculators. What that website showed, with empirical evidence, was a) My guess on the range was pretty good and b) That it really is the non-productive people being paid too much.

        See, there’s several ways to get rid of inflation. One way is to put an interest charge on money but, as the GFC just proved, that doesn’t work. Another way is to limit income between a fixed range of values. With a fixed income range prices can never go up. The latter needs another supporting policy though – the very strict control on money supply which means that the private banks will no longer be able to create money at will as they do now – but then, we need to stop them doing that anyway.

        One of the most beneficial aspects of a limited income though is that the massive accumulation in wealth that we’ve been seeing over the last three decades will be dispersed back out to the community as the rich will find that they can no longer afford to maintain their vast empires that they’ve built – the empires that are killing this world while increasing poverty for the many.

        • Colonial Viper

          See, there’s several ways to get rid of inflation.

          Or just have a society where people consume what is modestly needed, shares the rest according to the needs of others, and run a gift economy which builds intra-community relationships using any further surplus.

          Mind you, this is a bit far out, and is a move back to the very sustainable cultural roots of many different traditional societies.

        • TheContrarian

          Without touching the pay aspect (I agree some salaries a far beyond what skills/work people bring to the table) to broadly say managers/CEO’s specifically are “essentially non-productive people” is completely inaccurate.

  22. greywarbler 23

    If there is a link showing Shane Jones giving a farewell speech in the House would someone put it up please. I must get something else done at present but I feel a strange fascination with how he presents his last words so if there is link to this afternoon’s goodbye that would be good.

    Dudley & Pete http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-0u3NM8rd1U

  23. greywarbler 24

    While I was searching google for latest on shane jones I noticed the terrible choice of face photo of David Cunliffe. Who would be in a position to put up such an unflattering shot? He has a beard growth, he looks as if he is about to say something so his face is not composed, his eyes appear to be looking to the side, his face looks puffy. Compare to the PM and his carefully concocted camera shots. (stuff appears responsible.)

    The photo should be changed – it is unreasonable if it was stuff that downloaded all these.
    David Cunliffe public photos

  24. Skinny 25


    1 Firearm in first instants please make your inquiry to Judith Collins, Minister of Justice.

  25. greywarbler 26

    A piece in the NZ Herald about a real estate agent behaving badly smears a loved children’s icon! The story is that the agent sent pooh to a rival.
    This of course should be poo. Of course it is very unsavoury to even bring up. But I did feel that someone should defend dear Pooh Bear. Winnie the Pooh deserves better from the Herald. Shame. I blame the factory-hub-sub-editing apparently introduced by Paul Thompson now guiding RadioNZ.

    • The Al1en 26.1

      It could have been worse, they could have reported sending a john banks through the post.

    • Rosie 26.2

      There is in fact some one in my life I refer to as Pooh, after Pooh Bear, and definitely not poo. Poo is a more polite term than I would use to describe a certain leader………

      Another example I found of incorrect use of a word was in The Wellingtonian free newspaper last week where a bach was referred to as a batch. In the local paper I have seen wind referred to as “pelting wind”…..

      Save the worst gasp for the incorrect use of “eh”. L&P had a campaign called “It’s a bit different aye?”. I still see the reps driving around in their station wagons with that slogan festooned all over the car. phillip ure frequently uses aye and eh in their correct usages, which is heartening.

      (Expressed in the spirit of the Fry’s Planet Word link I sent to you earlier)

      • greywarbler 26.2.1

        I actually like pelting wind. It sounds very Wellington.
        When I looked up poo and pooh I had the idea that I was getting caught in USA sensitivity. I had to go to the Oxford to get pooh pooh. I usually find the free dictionary good as it often has a USA listing and a British one.

        Will enjoy Mr Fry asap. Ta.

      • marty mars 26.2.2

        So is aye pronounced I and eh pronounced a and is eh used with a question mark/exclamation mark or either.

        • phillip ure

          he’s got it..!..by george..!..i do think he has got it..!

        • Rosie

          Aye marty mars. Aye = eye/I. Scots for yes.

          Eh, pronounced A as you say, well it’s like a “yes?” or just an informal confirmation or approval.

          But I am no expert, just a lifelong user of “eh” and a reader of NZ fiction, where “eh” features quite a bit and I had a Scottish Nana who passed on phrases to Mum, aye being one that was used occasionally.

          Don’t know how the eh came about.

  26. geoff 27

    What are the chances that Brendan Horan is being used by the National party as a satellite state to attack Winston Peters like the US and Russia used/use satellite states like Afghanistan?

    Pretty good I’d say.


    • Anne 27.1

      Yes, geoff. What’s the bet they are feeding him the so-called information.

      I wasn’t the only one but I started saying last year that this election was going to be the dirtiest in our history – and all the filth coming from John Key’s top drawer.

      • greywarbler 27.1.1

        I hope so Anne. I don’t fancy his dirty linen from the bottom drawer.

    • ffloyd 27.2

      That is so what I think!!! His attacks are too sudden and out of nowhere, plus he sounds tutored. Peters needs to ignore him. Leave him for natz. He already has the suits.

  27. North 28

    A sick-making “me me me” charade, what ?


    That’s Shaney Boy for ya. Wahanui to Hahanui. Good riddance to bad rubbish for mine.

    Imagine a life permanently indebted to ‘Sir Les Patterson’ McCully. Still, Koru Club and business/first class forever. Be cool for a scab.

  28. georgecom 29

    Chris Cairns and match fixing. I am shocked and disgusted about the allegations levelled at Chris Cairns. He, nor anyone else, ever approached me to offer me money to throw one of the many business house cricket matches I have been involved in. My inept bowling, incompetent batting and shoddy fielding were all for the love of the game it seems.

  29. Jenny 30

    “Coal Kills”

    “Coal kills. When it’s not horrific mining accidents like the one in Soma, Turkey, on May 13 that killed more than 300 miners, it’s the 13,000 Americans who die early each year because of air pollution from burning the dirtiest fossil fuel.”

    Scientific American, May 20, 2014

    • Jenny 30.1

      Labour, National, Green Party Kills?”

      So how does the above go with Labour’s* plans to allow new coal mines and the Greens plans to go along with it to gain seats in cabinet?

      It doesn’t.

      So, are National, Labour and the Greens complicit in murder, or at the very least manslaughter?

      Is this how history will remember them?

      *(It was the Labour in government that made it illegal for courts to consider climate change in planning consent hearings. Which both Forest and Bird and Greenpeace spent large amounts of money trying to overturn in court to no avail.

      It has been argued that if climate change considerations could be heard in court, no new coal mines would ever be granted permission ever again.)

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