Open mike 22/02/2022

Written By: - Date published: 6:00 am, February 22nd, 2022 - 120 comments
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120 comments on “Open mike 22/02/2022 ”

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  1. vto 1
    22 February 2022 at 7:23 am

    On an issue which can be somewhat illuminated by the anti-mandate protesting all around the country…. and an issue which I have always stood by…

    … it is very clear that dividing people into two is a recipe for disaster

    … yet this is what those promoting te tiriti as a 'partnership' want

    creating two types of citizen within one nation doesn't work… never has and never will and now we have seen a working example in our very own backyard

    yet this reality is ignored by said promoters of te tiriti 'partnership'

    ignored

    which is foolish so very foolish

    we cannot have two types of citizens

    anger and disintegration is the result

    as we see across the nation today with two types of citizens with differing rights re covid

    …

    note: alongside this te tiriti and its agreements and breaches must still be acknowledged and accommodated or compensated in some way.. but this highlights the flawed nature of the treaty.. it needs repair

    • Molly 1.1
      22 February 2022 at 8:19 am

      Your analogy here doesn't work, vto.

      The current work on Te Tiriti, is so that everyone has a chance to be heard, and accommodations made so that everyone is acknowledged and considered.

      Which is what both you and I want in terms of the protestors.

      If you think that listening to Māori views is divisive, then you indicate that you believe that you have a concern that their view will take priority always. (Such as the Crown perspective has historically, at high costs to Māori communities, culture, assets and natural resources.) There will be a period of adjustment, as in any relationship, of adjustment and fine tuning.

      There will be scrutiny from both sides – and expectations from both sides – that will hopefully keep the partnership equal. At present it is not.

      • vto 1.1.1
        22 February 2022 at 8:39 am

        Thanks for the reply Molly, I hear what you are saying but dont agree the same thing wont happen. This is very straight forward at a high level – I dont believe you can have two types of citizens in one nation. It creates resentment, which leads to anger, which then leads to hatred. There are countless examples of this throughout history. Are there any examples where two types of citizens have lived together in one community that you know of? I would genuinely be very curious.

        Re this "If you think that listening to Māori views is divisive, then you indicate…". I didn't suggest listening to Maori views is divisive. The issue is providing a different set of rights – creating two types of citizens.

        It is the creation of two sets of rights.

        Most all immigrants to this land (including polynesians when they first arrived, as I understand) set about to escape birthright privilege in their homelands. Yet here we are recreating it.

        You have explained how it might work in your note, but you haven't addressed the effect on the people concerned. The effect of creating two types of citizens is on display atr Parliament grounds right now. It aint pretty and it aint sustainable.

        Everybody must be equal

        • Robert Guyton 1.1.1.1
          22 February 2022 at 8:46 am

          Do you mean, veto, that everyone must be vaccinated against Covid?

          Otherwise, we have a natural split vaxxed/unvaxxed.

          • vto 1.1.1.1.1
            22 February 2022 at 8:53 am

            No. My comment relates solely to the effect of creating two types of citizens, which is on display right now. It doesn't work, which I have always maintained and which we now have some direct evidence for. Happy to see evidence of places where two sets of citizens with different rights happily co-exist in close proximity etc though.

            Example places where it hasn't worked – south africa, israel, germany 1930, aotearoa 1900's 1800's, most all early colonial places where the locals had no representation, it is a very long list I think…

            Example places where it has worked – keen to hear..

            • Blazer 1.1.1.1.1.1
              22 February 2022 at 9:23 am

              Heard of the 'haves' and the 'have nots' ,those that own property and those that….don't=now you have.wink

            • Robert Guyton 1.1.1.1.1.2
              22 February 2022 at 9:49 am

              How might that work, veto, where it is held that the behaviour of unvaccinated/unmasked/contact-tracing-refusing etc. people, adversely affect the health of other members of society?

              Isn't their a natural division that exists despite Government decree?

              And the businesses and industries that decide, for themselves, that it's unsafe for the various groups toward in close proximity? How might their decision to require vaccination be managed?

              There are numerous situations that would occur in lieu of a demand, back by disincentives/incentives, from Government to vaccinate against a viral pandemic. How would you manage those divisions/

              • vto …
                22 February 2022 at 9:54 am

                sure, there are natural divisions all over the place, as blazer also points out.

                my point though relates to specific legislated rights, not that which occurs 'naturally'

                I think this distinction is valid (and hope I have understood your point)

                • Robert Guyton …
                  22 February 2022 at 10:37 am

                  I understand that your point relates to specific legislated rights, vto.

                  I think I have the wrong end of the stick here 🙂

          • Bill Drees 1.1.1.1.2
            22 February 2022 at 10:50 am

            vto is voicing Don Brash stuff. Not worth the effort, Molly.

            • vto 1.1.1.1.2.1
              22 February 2022 at 11:04 am

              pffttt….

            • Blade 1.1.1.1.2.2
              22 February 2022 at 11:37 am

              VTO… is just stating a fact. His argument has been proven around the world.

              Everything else you are reading on said topic is just commentary.

              I had an old Pakeha guy turn up on my doorstep last night. As I opened the door his beginning smile turned into a look of consternation.

              ''I don't think you will be interested,'' he said apologetically.

              To cut the story short, he was collecting signatures for a petition against Three Waters reform.

              I said I would gladly sign his petition. He asked why?

              I gave the following reasons:

              1- Three Waters strips local ratepayers of historical assets.

              2- It creates unnecessary bureaucracy.

              3- It's racist. It's divisive, and a ideologically driven sop for Maori.

              The old chap shook my hand and left. He gave the impression of trying to decide whether I was taking the piss; or not.

              That's a classic example of the rift between peoples and groups within our society at present.

              Don Brashs' cant has nothing to do with it.

              *** I'm ASSUMING this petition is circulating nationwide.

              • Robert Guyton …
                22 February 2022 at 11:39 am

                "His argument has been proven around the world"

                Ha ha ha ha ha!

                Lovely!

              • Muttonbird …
                22 February 2022 at 11:50 am

                Shaking hands? Are you a pandemic denier, Blade? Or just slack.

                • Blade …
                  22 February 2022 at 11:59 am

                  Just a realist…like Australians.

                  I deny Man Made Climate Change. The biggest scam going…and one of the most dangerous, if the Sunday current affairs programme is anything to go by.

                  Large tracts of good farming land being planted in pines so operators can claim carbon credits.

                  Now there’s slackness for you.

                  • aj …
                    22 February 2022 at 12:13 pm

                    I deny Man Made Climate Change.

                    I was sceptical but the evidence over the last 20yrs has become compelling. You are a frog,

                    https://www.moralstories.org/frog-hot-water/

                  • Stuart Munro …
                    22 February 2022 at 1:30 pm

                    More of an alt-realist.

                  • Macro …
                    22 February 2022 at 1:35 pm

                    I deny Man Made Climate Change. The biggest scam going…and one of the most dangerous, if the Sunday current affairs programme is anything to go by.

                    Large tracts of good farming land being planted in pines so operators can claim carbon credits.

                    🙄

                    Wow whataboutism, the latest argument of the antiscience denialist. Truth be said I haven't come across that piece of nonsense before – did you make that one up all by yourself? Second thoughts – you must have – the idiocy of it is telling.

                    • Blade …
                      22 February 2022 at 3:16 pm

                      Says the cat with the shades ( or bulging eyes?) who knows little of American history. Who tried to teach me, but was schooled in the process.

                      Now I'm supposed to take you seriously.?? surpriselaugh

                    • McFlock …
                      22 February 2022 at 3:33 pm

                      I'm not sure you know what "schooled" means, anymore than you did "irony".

                    • Blade …
                      22 February 2022 at 3:53 pm

                      I'm not sure you know what "schooled" means, anymore than you did "irony".

                      Just letting a dear friend off lightly, and myself more so, from a torturous parergon investigation.

                  • Tony Veitch (not etc.) …
                    22 February 2022 at 1:53 pm

                    I deny Man Made Climate Change.

                    All, and I mean ALL, credibility lost in one short statement!

                    • Blade …
                      22 February 2022 at 3:11 pm

                      It's sad – and I mean it- you have been blinded by supposed consensus science.

                      You assume all those scientists who put their names to anthropogenic climate dogma, honestly did so on their own volition.

                      You believe funding, tenure and reputation has nothing to do with their support? This is not to say the majority of scientists don't believe in anthropogenic climate change – they do. What I'm saying is more than a few, in private, have doubts about all, or SOME aspects of anthropogenic climate change.

                      I suggest you take a different tact and maybe go off the reservation and see what you can find.

                    • Robert Guyton …
                      22 February 2022 at 3:13 pm

                      Really sad.

        • Molly 1.1.1.2
          22 February 2022 at 10:28 am

          "Thanks for the reply Molly, I hear what you are saying but don't agree the same thing wont happen. "

          I assume you are talking about an overarching authority given to views of one at the expense of the other. In this case, Māori perspectives rather than the Crown. I'm not saying that it could never happen, after all the contrary has happened in the existing partnership between the Crown and Māori since Te Tiriti was signed. That also assumes that no true partnership could ever be achieved, just a pull back and forth.

          One statement that has stayed with me through the years is:

          "We have a multi-cultural society in a bi-cultural country".

          I believe this to be true. It is Te Tiriti that recognises the bi-cultural country. It is social cohesion that celebrates inclusion of others who want to live here.

          The power of the Crown is not limited to non-contemporary historical injustices of land appropriation. Emancipation for Maori men was celebrated for being enacted early in our history, but was there value in voting for a representative whose powers were limited? In my lifetime, there have been continued land appropriation, Bastion Point, The Foreshore and Seabed Bill. Russel Norman disappointed me when in his desire to achieve the Kermadec Ocean Sanctuary, he supported the bypassing of consultation with local tangata whenua.

          There are also continuing effects of institutions and Ministries ignoring impacts in health, education, welfare and mental health which then treats Māori in such a way that outcomes are statistically able to be identified – as detrimental. If looking to improve the partnership means that these current outcomes are improved, then that is a win for all.

          I would agree with you that there is no positive outcome in having an elevated citizenry by virtue of birth. We can see the ramifications of that in the present day. We can navigate the complicated waters of this relationship and achieve more, by keeping that danger in mind, and take moves to avoid it.

          Healthy partnerships, require ongoing respect both ways, and continuous energy.

          • vto 1.1.1.2.1
            22 February 2022 at 11:09 am

            Thanks again Molly, appreciate and understand your points, though I think the main hefty issue remains unanswered…

            I dont have a full answer for the inequities that have arisen to date and dont disagree that having all people equal in legislation wont result in further inequities for those cultures which are in the minority..

            but the main point still stands…

            having two different types of citizens in one nation doesn't work

            (… and of course we need to find a way to mitigate said inequities)

            I am also curious still – are you aware of nations/places where this has worked??

            • Molly 1.1.1.2.1.1
              22 February 2022 at 11:27 am

              "having two different types of citizens in one nation doesn't work"

              I agree. But still don't see where this is being proposed in terms of Te Tiriti, (as opposed to your analogy with the non-vaccinated where it was explicitly stated).

              "I am also curious still – are you aware of nations/places where this has worked??"

              I am unaware of any country where an equal partnership has been sought?
              Do you have examples?

              "I dont have a full answer for the inequities that have arisen to date and dont disagree that having all people equal in legislation wont result in further inequities for those cultures which are in the minority.."

              I would distrust anyone who declares themselves to have "full answers" as opposed to a stated intention, a willingness to make an effort and an acknowledgement that mistakes will be made along the way.

              "…or those cultures which are in the minority."

              It's not really a question of numbers, as 'in the minority', as I see it.

              Its an understanding that when a person identifiable as Māori is dealt with by existing services, their outcomes are statistically less favourable. An acknowledgement that this is not working, knowledge is required to improve, and that knowledge is most likely held by Māori themselves requires a framework that accepts this approach.

              Institutional approaches that sideline Māori are handed down.

              For example, while talking with the recently immigrated Phillipino nurse who was giving me chemotherapy, who undertook training in Hawkes Bay, our two hour conversation ended with the enquiry, "Are you Māori?". When I replied in the affirmative, she said she was surprised. She had been told by NZ staff in the Hawkes Bay to expect Māori to be disruptive and argumentative. By undocumented methods such as these, beneficial health outcomes for Māori seem a long way away unless directly addressed.

              • vto …
                22 February 2022 at 12:10 pm

                I need to depart this mornings conversation sorry, but this..

                "Its an understanding that when a person identifiable as Māori is dealt with by existing services, their outcomes are statistically less favourable. An acknowledgement that this is not working, knowledge is required to improve, and that knowledge is most likely held by Māori themselves requires a framework that accepts this approach."

                .. I agree with entirely, for all cultures. I dont think it should be impossible to implement what you describe while maintaining single citizenry under the law. I imagine it would come down to the detail in such implementation.

                • Molly …
                  22 February 2022 at 12:25 pm

                  All good. I'm heading off soon too.

                  But once again:

                  "We are a multi-cultural society in a bi-cultural country."

                  If we are unable to understand differences between the two parties of Te Tiriti and address the failings of the past, it is unlikely that we will address the inequities of other cultures within NZ.

                  There is currently a default priority given to the Crown. Immigrants all have a country where their culture is placed and recognised, and has an influence on life and politics (unless they have been diminished by force). Māori do too. It resides in only one country, NZ.

                  Your perspective regarding the recognition of the multi-cultural society (which is admirable) while ignoring the reality of the bi-cultural country (which is problematic) ignores Te Tiriti, Crown failings and the negative repercussions still felt today.

                  (Thanks for this discussion, vto. It's been interesting trying to figure out where you are, and how to address that from where I stand.)

    • Ad 1.2
      22 February 2022 at 9:08 am

      The Waitangi Day protests over 30 years used to be the place that real and angry people got to force accountability onto politicians and make them as embarrassed as they should be.

      Imagine if Ardern had held yesterday's lengthy media conference on COVID on the steps of Parliament rather than in her safe little theatre.

      Finally she set out the start of a timetable for vaccine mandates to end.

      Instead of enforced political accountability on the very grounds of political accountability, the encampment gets further radicalised.

      • weka 1.2.1
        22 February 2022 at 10:31 am

        Imagine if Ardern had held yesterday's lengthy media conference on COVID on the steps of Parliament rather than in her safe little theatre.

        Are the steps within rifle range? Or knife throw? No way should any MP be getting close to the protest with death threats, far right agitators, and actual Nazis, who support the Mosque shooter, on the loose. Safe is prudent at this point.

        • aj 1.2.1.1
          22 February 2022 at 12:17 pm

          Safe is prudent at this point.

          Absolutely agree Weka. It is quite clear that people in the protest group are advocating violence, it's just a question of time before some deranged person out there in the community takes some sort of action. And unfortunately the threat level is never going to return to pre-covid levels.

          What sympathy I had for the protest group is evaporating. Good people would walk away, and we are not seeing much of that.

    • weka 1.3
      22 February 2022 at 9:29 am

      assuming for the sake of argument that you are right vto, which culture of which partner of the treaty should we all be part of if we have to choose one? Māori/Iwi/Hapū, or The Crown/Pākehā?

      • vto 1.3.1
        22 February 2022 at 9:45 am

        Great question weka.. I dont know and appreciate that my singular point doesn't address other related (and secondary imo) issues such as that one.

        It is a difficult conundrum very much..

        But the difficulties with 2x citizens as posited kinda overwhelms that next question I think…

        … maybe.. in the bigger picture, as the world globalises, all cultures are going to become more one… they will merge until eventually the world is one people… yeah, I know, world governance and all that – but that is the direction humanity is heading … and which culture/s will come out with primacy within such a global culture??? … maybe chinese due to population? maybe western due to power and attitude? maybe african of some sort? maybe in fact quite a mix..

        • Molly 1.3.1.1
          22 February 2022 at 11:04 am

          One thought that I have on culture – it that it develops over generations – and almost always has a founding in geography, natural resources and a connection to land and sea (which provides food/shelter) necessary for communities to continue.

          Cultures contain stories and protocols often originating in the veneration of these aspects of life. A taniwha story that maintains the purity of a water source, Wangari Maathai told a story about grandfather trees that were to be venerated. It was only later, after they had been harvested, that she gained knowledge about how the trees worked to maintain the sequestering of water. NGO's often bring engineering knowledge and technology as aid to countries, and bypass the local knowledge that may enhance or improve the success of their efforts.

          Here, in NZ, those that have resided here for generations – and looked after the land and resources – both Pakeha and Maaori – have a wealth of local knowledge that recent immigrants without such contact do not. Recent immigrants may also have their own knowledge from their own local places, and a sharing of knowledge is to be celebrated. In both its value and its difference.

          Universal human rights, will not be achieved with a universal implementation. That assumes a default position, that approach will serve everyone badly.

    • Ed1 1.4
      22 February 2022 at 12:15 pm

      "note: alongside this te tiriti and its agreements and breaches must still be acknowledged and accommodated or compensated in some way.. but this highlights the flawed nature of the treaty.. it needs repair"

      So unless you are proposing that we just ignore agreements / contracts / laws, surely that "repair" must be done first. How do you propose to do that, vto? Or do you have a view that people should be able to ignore laws they do not like?

    • Gypsy 1.5
      22 February 2022 at 1:24 pm

      Brilliant comment. My genuine concern is that the ones who will be most hurt from this delusion are Maori.

  2. Blazer 2
    22 February 2022 at 9:02 am

    Same land area as Gt Britain,-5 million population.

    ' It is surely a little embarrassing that New Zealand, one of the least populated countries in the world, has apparently run out of land.

    The humiliation was laid bare for the world to see in an Economist article last week showing New Zealand house prices rose 256 per cent during a period when they rose by just 64 per cent in the United States and 110 per cent in the United Kingdom.'

    Land grab economy continues as councils continue to tax apartment-owners more than landbankers | Stuff.co.nz

    • Tiger Mountain 2.1
      22 February 2022 at 9:19 am

      The embarrassment is more the two fold phenomenon of…

      –the tory rump of settler desecendants and dependents, entrepreneurs and petit bourgeoisie that vote Nashnull year in year out

      –the boomers (not all of us!) subdued by neo liberal hegemony and seduced by capital gains

    • ghostwhowalksnz 2.2
      22 February 2022 at 9:33 am

      A silly story.

      Apartments have higher density of separate homes on the land they occupy, thus have a higher 'rating value'

      Half of council rates are usually fixed charges not related to value

      The newish Editor of Dominion has led to a parade of 'just stupid' stories like these

      • lprent 2.2.1
        22 February 2022 at 10:05 am

        Yeah – it kind of ignores things like local transport including roads (the single largest cost in a local budget) being directly related to population density.

        Journalists really aren't educated well in basic economics or most things as far as I can tell. They can’t tell shit ideas from bullshit

  3. lprent 3
    22 February 2022 at 9:57 am

    Pretty good page at RNZ of graphs on covid-19 in NZ

    I was particularly struck by these two graphs (well down on the page). Clicking should give a larger image.


    Pretty self-explanatory. The omicron outbreak doesn’t appear to have hit the hospitals yet, that usually happens weeks after infection. We’re still seeing the tail end of Delta. Hospitalisation is pretty much reflecting the infections from 2 weeks ago.

    It looks like the age range for infection is low amongst the elderly so far. So it doesn’t look like it has gotten into the old-age homes yet.

    Recent infections are trending towards the young post -delta

    I'm expecting another step change in known infections either today or tomorrow to something well over 3000 per day. Eyeballing it, looks like the doubling rate on tested infections is about every 4 days.

    I can feel this getting closer to me. Keep hearing from people as they are notified of their closeness to it, or in a few cases actually getting omicron.

    Good thing we have the entertainment in Wellington to keep our minds off the main issue eh? Shit throwing from protesters and Luxon…

    • weka 3.1
      22 February 2022 at 10:23 am

      Recent infections are trending towards the young post -delta

      As to be expected, in Otago, following the locations of interest, it's largely Queenstown restaurants/bars/gym and the airport/flights, and in Dunedin the start of uni year Castle St parties.

  4. Koff 4
    22 February 2022 at 10:01 am

    Any doubts about the virulence of the Omicron variant(s) should perhaps now be put to bed as a real life, tragic experiment is taking place in one of NZ's Pacific neighbours – the Solomon Islands. Because Omicron arrived almost everywhere where vaccination rates were relatively high, it has been hard to gauge its severity. Was it really just like flu or more like the original (wild type) Wuhan virus which quickly killed millions around the world before vaccination kicked in? The Solomons, like much of the smaller Pacific island nations, remained Covid free until very recently. Like neighbouring PNG its vaccination drive was very slow, leaving its population with little acquired immunity. Omicron arrived early in January and because of its high transmissability has rapidly spread through Guadalcanal overwhelming the rudimentary health system and killing 70 so far.

    Compare this with Tonga's recent Covid outbreak, which occurred just after ships arrived to help with the tsunami damage. Tonga has also been Covid free, but has had a far more successful vaccination programme (90% double vaccinated in the 12+ population). Unlike the Solomons, although Tonga's Omicron outbreak there hasn't been quashed, it hasn't been too bad. Tonga has had no deaths and its also poor health system hasn't been overwhelmed.

    https://www.theguardian.com/world/2022/feb/22/people-are-dying-on-the-floor-healthcare-workers-tell-of-covid-devastation-in-solomon-islands

    https://time.com/6149359/solomon-islands-covid/

  5. Anker 5
    22 February 2022 at 10:09 am

    https://www.theguardian.com/world/commentisfree/2022/jan/26/a-letter-to-new-zealand-from-covid-ravaged-australia?fbclid=IwAR3CTMrFs5tvPYSG351iweB25fvzeumXehMFJjGGGeFrgYs6a0Nrg-X1M6c

    I probably should have posted this three weeks ago. A letter from an Australian journalist about what to expect when covid arrives

    Stay safe everyone

  6. mikesh 6
    22 February 2022 at 10:42 am

    Today is ‘palindromic’ day – 22 02 2022.

  7. francesca 7
    22 February 2022 at 11:16 am

    Anybody interested in going to primary sources free of propaganda to find out who is doing the provocation in the Donbas.Who's shooting who etc .Make up your own mind about who is lying

    I linked to the OSCE reports yesterday

    Here is Craig Murray doing the same.

    https://www.craigmurray.org.uk/archives/2022/02/ukraine-where-to-find-the-truth-in-enormous-detail/

    Putin is now de facto implementing the Minsk accords which Ukraine has been dragging its heels on

    He's recognising the Republics as opposed to annexing them (which they requested back in 2014)

    • Byd0nz 7.1
      22 February 2022 at 11:51 am

      One does not need to go back very far in warmonger history to recognise how the US and UK lie about conflicts and how they start, It’s much like the transparency of Luxon, you can see right through them.

      Ukraine wants to ban the Russian language, the self proclaimed Republics are Russian speaking people, go figure, why would they want to be ruled by a country that wants to ban their mother tongue.

      America and the UK are in decline and these actions only shows how they have lost their grip on reality, they waste billions to stay top dog at the expense of their own citizens.

      Time for the working class to smash their corrupt Leaders and the stinking system imposed on them.

      • joe90 7.1.1
        22 February 2022 at 12:25 pm

        Their language was suppressed for more than four hundred years and now the colonised want to see the arse end of their colonisers language.

        The nerve!

        /

      • aj 7.1.2
        22 February 2022 at 12:29 pm

        If I remember my history correctly, on a whim Khrushchev gave Crimea to the Ukraine in the 1950's, and there were question of the legitimacy of that action at the time.

        • Byd0nz 7.1.2.1
          22 February 2022 at 1:09 pm

          True. This after the real end of the Soviet Union IMO which was at the end of WW11 that claimed the lives of the true Soviet Patriots.

        • Scud 7.1.2.2
          22 February 2022 at 1:44 pm

          Here’s a wee History guide of the Crimea, https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Crimea

          Crimea became a part of Russia when Catharine the Great annexed Crimea in the Russo- Turkish War 1768- 1774
          https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Russo-Turkish_War_(1768%E2%80%931774)

          After WW2 Stalin deported the Crimea Tatar’s, which was one of the largest ethnic groups in Crimea at the time. Also the last remaining Germanic Tribes in Sth’ern Ukraine, Crimea and around other parts of the Black Sea Region. These Tribes go back some 200yrs & the most recent were ask by the Imperial Russia to setup around the Don & Donstek Areas to help with the Brits setup its Coal Mining, Steel Production & Ship Building especially when Russia got smashed by the Japanese in 1904.

      • Belladonna 7.1.3
        22 February 2022 at 1:07 pm

        Have to say — I'm seeing very strong echos of the language used by 1930s Germany in relation to the Sudetenland Germans in Czechoslovakia.

        While the US/UK may have form in warmonger history – so does Russia.

        • Barfly 7.1.3.1
          22 February 2022 at 2:06 pm

          Sudetanland ethnic Germans were 90% of the Sudetanland population. The Allied powers guaranteed that there would be future major drama by their drawing of national boundaries in the Versailles treaty. After Germany's WW2 defeat they avoided future problems like this by ethnicly cleansing millions of German civilians from areas seized from Germany.

          • Belladonna 7.1.3.1.1
            22 February 2022 at 4:04 pm

            Sudetenland had been a part of Bohemia (precursor state to Czechoslovakia) since the early Middle Ages. Agitation for 'reunification' prompted almost entirely by Nazi German reunification movement (i.e not a homegrown movement).

            However, military disaster for Czechoslovakia – (gutted by its allies – especially Chamberlain the great appeaser) and, by extension, the rest of Europe.
            Not a precedent that we want to follow.

            Perhaps Russia would be happy to house the Russian speaking population of the Ukraine (should they wish to go), thus solving the problem. /sarc/

            Naked land and resource grab by Putin.

    • Stuart Munro 7.2
      22 February 2022 at 1:37 pm

      Unfortunately Craig Murray has long since established himself as a lickspittle lackey of Putin's kleptocracy.

      Now that Putin is occupying the destabilized territories officially instead of in mufti, your point, even if it were not entirely a self-justifying Kremlin fiction, would now be moot.

      • francesca 7.2.1
        22 February 2022 at 1:43 pm

        And is the OSCE a similarly lickspittle lackey of Putin?

        I think not

        • Stuart Munro 7.2.1.1
          22 February 2022 at 1:53 pm

          Doesn't really matter does it.

          Putin has invaded, and means to live out his lifelong fantasy of reclaiming Russia's soviet era occupations.

          No progressive can support him in this enterprise – but it seems you do.

          • aj 7.2.1.1.1
            22 February 2022 at 8:15 pm

            Putin – and many Russians – will never forget the sacrifice of 20 million during the last invasion from the west, almost in my lifetime.

            To understand Russian action today requires understanding the last 400yrs of Russian history. And lets not forget that the USA's tactics are also sending messages to China, and Germany … don't you dare start up Nordstream 2

            • Stuart Munro 7.2.1.1.1.1
              23 February 2022 at 3:33 pm

              The sacrifice of 20 million owes much to the cruelty and stupidity of Stalin's regime. Losses would have been appreciably lighter without the insistence on counterattacks, and on holding poor defensive positions.

              Soviet armies were clumsily handled and frittered their tank strength away in piecemeal action like that of the French in 1940. But the isolated Soviet troops fought with a stubbornness that the French had not shown, and their resistance imposed a brake by continuing to block road centres long after the German tide had swept past them. Britannica

        • Scud 7.2.1.2
          22 February 2022 at 1:54 pm

          The OSCE, can’t even access parts of the Region by the Donstek Rebels since the escalation of creasefire violations & some of the OSCE remote cameras have been destroyed by the Rebels because they said they were directing Ukrainian indirect Fire.

          The Russia JCCC, is recognise by the OSCE, EU & the UN. Even a couple of NGO’s who I’m familiar with who operate in the Donstek Region refuse to work alongside them.

    • Muttonbird 7.3
      22 February 2022 at 2:34 pm

      I don't know enough about it but, are the Russians in Donbas not allowed independence from Ukraine?

      Seems independence/seperatist movements are sanctioned, encouraged, and even funded by the West when it suits them, but not this one…

    • Muttonbird 7.4
      22 February 2022 at 2:43 pm

      An elegant fix posted on another forum:

      The obvious solution to all this:

      1. Ukraine gives up the Donbass (& Crimea) to Russia
      2. (Remaining) Ukraine joins NATO

      Not one inch more. Peace in our time.

  9. Muttonbird 9
    22 February 2022 at 11:44 am

    Heather Stupidity-Allan was shouting at the the deputy PM yesterday, that the UK has ended all restrictions and is living with the virus so why are we not doing the same?

    She and others calling for this approach don't seem to get that in the UK Coronavirus has already killed 2300 per million of their most vulnerable more than it has done in NZ.

    So deaths are down in the UK? Well, it's taken who it's going to take, for now. The situation is simply not the same in NZ because we saved vulnerable lives. Our vulnerable are still with us.

    Given Covid took her own grandmother in a rest home in South Africa, and she is about to have a baby, I would have though she would be a bit more sympathetic…

    • Blade 9.1
      22 February 2022 at 11:57 am

      For Pete's sake, Muttonbird, switch to National Socialist Radio and save your health.

      Talking of talkback…it's spoken on Robbo Hoods support package for Hospo.

      Cafe owners and other hospo businesses who rung, all said the package was of limited value to them.

      • Robert Guyton 9.1.1
        22 February 2022 at 12:16 pm

        Talk-back is manic.

        • Blade 9.1.1.1
          22 February 2022 at 12:17 pm

          Troll.

          • Robert Guyton 9.1.1.1.1
            22 February 2022 at 12:19 pm

            I listen to talk-back.

            I would despair.

            If I wasn't laughing.

          • Stuart Munro 9.1.1.1.2
            22 February 2022 at 1:40 pm

            Try to deal in facts Blade, not invective.

            Calling Robert names contributes little to the sum of human endeavours.

            If you have an actual argument, try and make it.

            • Blade 9.1.1.1.2.1
              22 February 2022 at 2:40 pm

              Please don't try and twist things, Stuart.

              His replies to me speak for themselves. When he writes something of substance to points in posts I have made, I won't call him a troll. Troll is a polite word to use in my opinion. If I wanted to use invective, it wouldn't be that word.

              • Robert Guyton …
                22 February 2022 at 2:48 pm

                Oh, Blade, let it go…

              • Stuart Munro …
                22 February 2022 at 4:22 pm

                Poor, poor Blade – it is better to learn what words mean before you try to use them on other people.

                Robert is by no means a troll – you might want to pause and think about why it is that he he keeps butting you off the bridge.

                • Blade …
                  22 February 2022 at 5:27 pm

                  No need. My point has been made. Anyone with an unbiased view can see things for what they are. I have no need for Robert anymore.

                  • Stuart Munro …
                    22 February 2022 at 6:19 pm

                    I have no need for Robert anymore.

                    It's a poor student that does not surpass his teacher – but you do seem to be an exceptionally poor student. Were you a good one the facile nonsense of talkback would by now have lost its charm for you.

                    • McFlock …
                      22 February 2022 at 6:23 pm

                      The Dunning-Kruger is strong in that one.

                    • Blade …
                      22 February 2022 at 6:44 pm

                      ''Were you a good one the facile nonsense of talkback would by now have lost its charm for you.''

                      It's the best burley in town. It attracts the ignorant like flies to horseshit.

                      But, hey, what would I know, eh?

                      @McfLOCK.

                      I don't know what that means, but I bet it ain't nice.

                      Here's a song from the best three chord band in the world.

                      Best played on a Tele, not a Gibson.

    • McFlock 9.2
      22 February 2022 at 2:18 pm

      Q: butbutbut George's dad lets him play in traffic, why can't I?

      A: Because it's not safe

      Q: You're so mean! I wish Bojo was my mum!

    • Chris T 9.3
      22 February 2022 at 3:48 pm

      Heard it and did not hear her shouting.

      Did hear Robertson trying to divert from topic as per usual though. Think that is a Labour thing.

      They must teach it on the their teen Labour camps with the walk in beer fridges.

  10. Craig H 10
    22 February 2022 at 12:03 pm

    11 years since the February earthquake in Christchurch.

    Was a scary day 11 years ago… Christchurch is a long way through the rebuild now, but as that article shows, there are still a few leftover issues to resolve.

    • Blade 10.1
      22 February 2022 at 12:14 pm

      The irony in all of this was we were just about to have a big discussion about Islam in the West after a speech by then British MP, David Cameron.

      Paula Bennet was in the guest seat with JT and Willy, when the quake hit.

      So, Cameron's speech was forgotten.

      Then years later the Christchurch massacre occurred.

      Life is full of ironies

      • Blade 10.1.1
        22 February 2022 at 12:18 pm

        PM- David Cameron.

      • observer 10.1.2
        22 February 2022 at 12:18 pm

        What was the irony?

        • Blade 10.1.2.1
          22 February 2022 at 12:28 pm

          Islam-quake-deaths-Islam-terrorism-deaths.

          • observer 10.1.2.1.1
            22 February 2022 at 12:34 pm

            But what is the link between Cameron's speech, the earthquake and a terrorist massacre?

            How is it "ironic"?

            It sounds like you're saying we missed "a big discussion about Islam in the West" and "Cameron's speech was forgotten", and this … led to the massacre?

            Enough with the nod and wink, say what you mean to say.

            • Blade 10.1.2.1.1.1
              22 February 2022 at 12:38 pm

              I was wrong. You are right. There is no irony. My apologies.

              • observer …
                22 February 2022 at 12:46 pm

                All I've asked is for you to explain what you mean.

                I can only conclude that you don't want to, because you'd rather dump a little racism and not be called out.

  11. Blade 11
    22 February 2022 at 12:56 pm

    I have been critical of Jim Bolger of late. I believed he was one step away from making dream catchers, and trading the brandy in for a good Matinborough Pinot Noir.

    But he comes good in this article and says some interesting things:

    Quotes:

    "I'm sure the prime minister can talk to the police commissioner and find out who these people are and just listen to their complaints; they may not do anything about the complaints but just listen to them''

    ''The essential principle of democracy is that leaders listen to people, and I am not certain that the prime minister has got it right by saying she won't listen to people.''

    He's right. If she had fronted at the start, we wouldn't be in the situation we are now faced with regarding the protesters.

    https://www.stuff.co.nz/national/300523379/political-leaders-should-get-off-their-high-horses–jim-bolger

    • Robert Guyton 11.1
      22 February 2022 at 1:43 pm

      "He's right. If she had fronted at the start, we wouldn't be in the situation we are now faced with regarding the protesters."

      Yeah.

      The frothing, broiling, wound-up protesters would have listened respectfully to the PM.

      *sarcasm/

    • Stuart Munro 11.2
      22 February 2022 at 1:43 pm

      Meh, Bolger is just giving bad advice.

      Meet with the pooflingers.

      Listen to the nonsensus of fringe opinion.

      The resulting chaos would create more opportunity for the floundering National Party.

      • Robert Guyton 11.2.1
        22 February 2022 at 2:00 pm

        Jim should walk amongst them. His potato-visage might resonate. If poo is flung, he can blame Jacinda! Win-win!!

      • weka 11.2.2
        22 February 2022 at 2:23 pm

        nonsensus!

        very good.

        • Stuart Munro 11.2.2.1
          22 February 2022 at 4:27 pm

          It's one of Ambrose Bierce's:

          REFERENDUM, n. A law for submission of proposed legislation to a popular vote to learn the nonsensus of public opinion. ~ The Devil's Dictionary

      • Blade 11.2.3
        22 February 2022 at 2:27 pm

        Er, no. If she'd have fronted in the first few days, Jacinda could then have justifiably claimed she had tried to address the protesters…and was shouted down`. What more could she do? The public would have agreed. She then could have proceeded to clear the protesters off parliament surroundings.

        Now the public is split. And every man and his feral goat have differing opinions.

        The next political poll is going to be telling. If Jacinda still has good ratings, then she has become a Teflon Socialist…unable to do wrong. National may as well pack their tent and go home. If Labour takes a hit in the polls – Jacinda is to blame…and I would assume both her political career and legacy begins its downward slide.

    • Peter 11.3
      22 February 2022 at 2:15 pm

      Bolger's sure Ardern can talk to the police commissioner and find out who these people are? Really? Whoop dee fucken doo. I bet she hasn't talked to the police commissioner and found out about the mob.

      Listen to their complaints? She hasn't heard or been informed of the messages broadcast out and on placards? And those who want the government to resign and for there to be a different sort of government, one in which they're in charge? Yes she should invite them in for a cuppa and let them tell her that. She has no inkling that's what they're on about.

      Then again she should have engaged with people back in February 2019 and told them there was a pandemic coming which would likely kill millions world-wide. And that they'd take advice from experts on how to deal with it. Later on she could have fronted the people and talked about vaccines and the importance of them in arresting or mitigating the worst affects of the virus.

      A hidebound anti-government, anti-science, anti logic, anti-commonsense, anti-community, self-centred mob made up their minds they weren't going to play ball.

      Was Ardern meant to go and hold each and every hand and reassure them, educate them, cajole them and get them on board? And then turn herself over to them for her execution?

      • Blade 11.3.1
        22 February 2022 at 2:33 pm

        ''Bolger's sure Ardern can talk to the police commissioner and find out who these people are? Really? Whoop dee fucken doo. I bet she hasn't talked to the police commissioner and found out about the mob.''

        Let's hope that's the case, Peter, when the inquiry results are published.

        • Peter 11.3.1.1
          22 February 2022 at 5:12 pm

          I often see comments about politicians "needing to talk to people" as if they are in a bubble, do not engage with anyone behind the scenes or off camera. The implication is they're in a solo bubble and simply wheel themselves or a press release out occasionally. They operate singly, independently, without reference to anyone.

          Yes, let's have an inquiry. We want to know on which days since January the 27th Ardern spoke with the Police Minister and what exactly was said. And the Deputy Prime Minister and Minister of Finance. And the Minister of the SIS and GCSB. And the Minister of Health. And the Minister of Local Government. And the Minister of Defence.

          I bags be on the group. (I'll only charge out at $1666 a day.)

          When it's reported on who said exactly what and when, and everything said and done was found to be deficient and lacking, what comes next? (You can see the clarity already, I won't need many days to come to a cretin pleasing conclusion.)

          Should we then have an 'action replay' – go back to the beginning and get the protestors to do it all again to give the same politicians a second go?

          Hell, we could rewind to the beginning of 2019 and do it all again. Follow the grand 'leave everything open, don't do anything extra' plan. Open borders in and out as demanded. Don't engage with the Devil Juice Vaccinations. Business would thrive. We'd be the toast of the world. My shares in the funeral company would be through the roof although I might be too dead to enjoy the profits. But what's 20,000 or so dying directly from Covid and a few thousand others dying because of the breakdown of the health system? I mean think positive, look at the housing created.

          Or chuck them out and let the festering fuckwits like Brian Tamaki have a go at running the place?

      • Robert Guyton 11.3.2
        22 February 2022 at 2:38 pm

        "Was Ardern meant to go and hold each and every hand and reassure them, educate them, cajole them and get them on board? And then turn herself over to them for her execution?"

        That's the great hope, Peter.

        Why, oh why, hasn't Jacinda done as they require??

        Is she … intelligent, or something???

        • Blade 11.3.2.1
          22 February 2022 at 3:41 pm

          ''That's the great hope, Peter.

          Why, oh why, hasn't Jacinda done as they require??''

          Well, I would have thought Jacinda would've taken a page out of your book for the sake of national security.

          No?sad

          https://www.stuff.co.nz/national/95280266/robert-guyton-supports-convicted-criminal-and-friend-tony-gow

          [I don’t care how it started, but stop this bickering now. Digging up the past of commenters for no good reason other than to poke them is flaming, and kind of creepy. Just stop – weka]

          • Stuart Munro 11.3.2.1.1
            22 February 2022 at 4:40 pm

            Surely you're not suggesting the clownvoy are a threat to national security, Blade. If that were so, they'd be a task for the army, who'd make short work of them.

            • Blade 11.3.2.1.1.1
              22 February 2022 at 5:20 pm

              Yes, that's what I'm suggesting… either directly, or by actions hiving off from the original protest.

              The PM must take ultimate responsibility.

              • Stuart Munro …
                22 February 2022 at 6:29 pm

                If they have become a threat to national security, or traitors to use the vernacular term, they cease to be the PM's problem, and become the army and SIS's – once again demonstrating the shortcomings of being a sea-girt nation without marines.

                The PM need not bother with such wretched refuse – but she might reasonably direct some efforts to punish the CEO of Red Stag. Seems he's been a Verry naughty boy.

          • Robert Guyton 11.3.2.1.2
            22 February 2022 at 4:48 pm

            Tony/Blade? Is that you, old pal?

          • weka 11.3.2.1.3
            22 February 2022 at 5:04 pm

            mod note.

          • Robert Guyton 11.3.2.1.4
            22 February 2022 at 6:57 pm

            Thanks, weka, though I'm very proud of my past actions and am not afraid of them being aired here 🙂

  12. Blade 12
    22 February 2022 at 5:48 pm

    This chap has died unexpectedly.

    I wonder if stressed played a part in his demise?

    He's the type of Kiwi we can't afford to lose.

    https://www.stuff.co.nz/national/health/coronavirus/126320222/covid19-northland-businesses-struggling-after-being-marooned-by-auckland?

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