We now face the issue of Hunt's relatives flying in from Oz and going into managed isolation and whether they will be allowed out.
Which at one level is easy – once there is a negative to the test. At another not so much because there are false negatives, and them infecting others at the funeral would be a new low.
What would reduce the risk would be if only Kiwis from Oz were on the plane and in the Rotorua hotel now. But if it was an onflight including those from South Asia and the UK less so.
In that regard, its about time to separate the Kiwis from Oz coming here from those in on-flights from other areas of higher risk.
There is no real reason why Kiwis in WA/SA/Queensland need to go into isolatiom at all and those from NSW/Victoria with no others in their home to go to self isolation (with phone tracking or bracelets).
So what? So he's framing Biden as China's candidate.
The Democrats could not have selected a worse candidate to make an argument to the American people than Joe Biden… I think 2020 is shaping up in the last 150 days to be just this classic counter of the globalism of Joe Biden and the Wall Street faction of the Democratic Party versus the economic nationalism and populism of Trump and potentially some slice of the Bernie [Sanders] contingent.
Why? Good/evil. The antique binary axis has ten times the moral authority of trad democracy (two millennia of moral hegemony versus two centuries).
I think that the government of China is a group of gangsters… I think what they’ve done as far as taking away the Chinese people’s freedom and what they’ve done with the Uighurs, the Tibetan Buddhists, the underground House Church Christians, the underground Catholic Church, the Falun Gong and the democracy movement is outrageous. And they should be confronted at every level by every government
Civilisation at stake thesis. Civil rights became a global scheme via UN adoption. Dragon mythos is ancient, but success on the geopolitical stage depends on the communist regime adhering to it in defiance of the civilised world.
The CCP is in a hot information/cyber war and a hot economic war against the United States. And they’ve been at that for a while. And President Trump’s the only president in American history that has stood up to the Chinese Communist Party. And I think now is the time to even take it up a notch. And I think you’re seeing this across the United States government. I think you’re seeing a whole of government approach led by people like Secretary [of State Mike] Pompeo. You can see now in Congress, you’ve got people like in the Senate, Marco Rubio, Tom Cotton, Josh Hawley. The American government and the American people are now engaged in this confrontation
Except now the chink electrogoons are targeting Oz, and ScoMo is trying real hard not to say so. He's authorised headlines about the cyber attacks, while carefully not specifying their source. Watch this space!!
NZ is studiously ignoring what is happening in Australia right now in the vain hope the contagion won't strike us. Well it has become a real issue there and we'd do well to start paying attention:
It’s not just about COVID-19. Or the 2016 US presidential election. Truth has been under constant and deliberate assault since the explosive rise of social media more than a decade ago.
It has been called a fire hose of misinformation. Truth decay. Infowars. An infodemic.
Local and federal politicians exploit it. Local, national and international corporations and lobby groups embrace it. Diplomatic corps deploy it.
And that’s where Australia has resolved to draw the line.
“As Prime Minister Morrison said in March this year … there are some who believe liberal democracies and free societies cannot cope with these sorts of challenges,” Payne said. “We will prove them wrong here in Australia.”
Here is an important point to keep in mind; the assault is a one way flow. The authoritarian states, primarily China and to a lesser degree Russia, are able to control their domestic internet. China in particular completely insulates it's own people from the West and tightly controls what they are allowed to see and say. By contrast the democratic West is almost completely open, and thus completely vulnerable.
Does anyone think asymmetry is not being exploited to our manifest disadvantage?
After the consequence of glasnost on the Soviet Union, China decided it was a weakness they would not have, but exploit in others.
Of course Russia under Putin, is on the same course – even adopting white race identity nationalism in both domestic politics and aslo as a way to connect to nationalists abroad – to take down the western multi-lateralist regime.
Given the left created identity politics, it's hard to understand the outrage when others learn the lesson and use it for their own purposes. But it goes a long way to explaining my decade long objection here to the whole damned idea in the first place. Identity politics is nothing if not a perpetual motion grievance machine.
Still this is a tangent to the point; the authoritarian states have seen this fatal weakness and are more than willing to use to intensify the natural diversity of the west into hopelessly bickering camps. So far it looks like it's working a treat don't you think?
Personally I have no problem with all the people not white race men becoming activist for those of their group becoming equal citizens in a democracy. Sure there is contention over some of it, as there was over mitigating any injustice. This process has been going on for centuries now.
The taking offence part is more novel, there its more the 1790's France, post 1917 Russia side to it. A form of PC vigilantism and group peer pressure.
As to who gains by it, it's a distraction from growing economic inequality, facing up to the need for monetary reform to sustain nation state capability and global collective action on planetary health. Well those who want to rebuild the fuedal order around capital and outside management of the underclass (high tech panopticon society regime – think China but Area 51 God rule style).
The major weakeness of the West, as to Russia and China, is not our own internal political divisions, but the greed within capitalism. That applies whether in its nationalist Trumpian form, or those who take access to China's market on their terms for the sake of short term shareholder profit.
damn, all those people who are not white, not male, not heterosexual and good 'christians' that want equal rights, equal opportunity, and equal safety.
Damn, those darn gosh dangly doo liberals. Don't they know their place.
Oh to be living in the good old times of 1850. Before all that jazz about voting rights, rights to bodily autonomy, and distaste of racially and sexually / gendered jokes.
Don't diss pre 1850. The French Revolution of 1789-1799 "Liberté, Egalité, Fraternité" established the notion of universal human rights and led to the abolition of slaves throughout the British Empire (1833). Which also meant that the Treaty of Waitangi (1840) was founded on similar principles.
It just took the USA a while to catch up (emancipation/civil war in 1863)
Personally I have no problem with all the people not white race men becoming activist for those of their group becoming equal citizens in a democracy.
Now let's imagine a nice little democratic nation that isn't white dominated. One where say Latino, Blacks or Asians run the show. And ask yourself if these places might not have considerable 'systemic bias' against minorities of other ethnic groups. It logically follows from your argument these groups would want to demand to be 'equal citizens'.
What if one of these minorities happened to be white, are they to be excluded from being equal citizens?
And then take this thought experiment one step further and try and imagine the outcome of the small white minority in China demanding to become 'equal citizens'.
Given the history of China is the expansion of the Han and assimilation of outer regions into their hegemony … and Russian security was premised on expansion of the Rus/Slav European across the continent to the Pacific … oh or colonial west aquiring American from sea to sea (including Mexican Texas and California) Aotearoa land to farm, there could be a brotherly self-recognition. Or maybe we are too alike, and have good reason not to trust each other. It being all so Darwinian.
The west sees itself as building a civilisation, post enlightenment. A new Greco-Roman age realising its period of colonialism/economic imperialism/global dominance. And China sees it as something to emulate to supplant western global leadership and Russia sees this as reducing its own economic and political isolation.
Ultimately making our own society more just does not change the global dynamics of power in play.
Or maybe we are too alike, and have good reason not to trust each other. It being all so Darwinian.
That really gets very close to the question I've been trying to address here for years.
Here is a thought going through my head this morning; unity does not mean uniformity. What it really means is the capacity to achieve common purposes across large groups of diverse identity. (Yes identity is real, it's making it the centre of power games is what I object to.)
It's that capacity, across the universality of all humankind which is what interests me. When we achieve it globally (and I think this is inevitable) we will unleash our true potential as a spiritual beings, we will astonish ourselves.
the elevation of human rights and recognition of the individual as a sovereign, spiritual being, is an Enlightenment ethic peculiar to Europe, not shared by other cultures, and certainly not by tyrannical rulers.
identity politics undermines that. western liberalism is in crisis because the capitalists (or other political forces) have weaponised division against the people.
No they didn't. Identity politics has been around in one form or another for a very long time but primarily saw it's birth after the industrial revolution and capitalism began separating people from the core sources of their identity.
I read your other comment regarding "truth decay" and want to address both comments together.
Firstly, what that article is referring to is called FUD – fear, uncertainty and doubt. Yes, it's a commonly used disinformation tactic used in sales, advertising, marketing, media, politics, religion and online in posts/social media; "a strategy to influence perception by disseminating negative and dubious or false information and a manifestation of the appeal to fear."
Not everyone who uses it knows they're using it however because it naturally exploits our biases so is seldom recognised as a strategy. It is very effective, especially in religion, politics and in social media.
It's also not new and has been around since the 1600s where it was a deliberate religious strategy to keep lay people dependent on priests for religious interpretation. This is an important fact to remember because the initial utilisation of a FUD-based strategy was by religious authoritative figures to control the masses. In that article you linked you'll find this quote which is a suggested 'remedy' to disinformation.
“Relying on clear and authoritative sources is one very important approach.”
And who can we trust these days with such a task? In whose hands would you be willing to place 'truth'?
To be clear, you are right to be concerned about disinformation. Jordan Peterson himself has dissolve the boundaries of truth down to a metaphor. More concerning is that he places metaphorical truth over and above scientific truth. Mind you, how else is he going to convince legions of lost boys to continue drinking the Kool-aid unless he can find some way of destroying the science getting in the way of his religion?
But, back to my point. My main contention is that you seem to think that there was some magical time in history where we had 'truth', where we were critical thinkers who smelled BS a mile away, where we weren't being manipulated by people in power. I'm guessing from your other comments that your come-back will be 'well, no but now the left have broken society into fragments which leaves us vulnerable'.
I'd agree that we're divided and vulnerable but disagree that you can place responsibility for that in the hands of the left.
What I noticed about your two comments is how you use the FUD article as a FUD strategy of your own to further your anti-left narrative. You've skipped right over the fact that the article calls for censorship via the authoritative control of information and instead presented it as a fallacious appeal to fear.
"When fear, not based on evidence or reason, is being used as the primary motivator to get others to accept an idea, proposition, or conclusion."
Identity politics is not new and wasn't started by the left although I'll agree they utilise it. But so does the right. The fracturing of society and flourishing of identity politics is very much the result of massive inequality which pitted the white male against the 'other' – not because white males engineered it to be this way but simply because they were the ones pried from their homes and sent off to work in order to feed the capitalist machine and it is this machine (or rather the breaking of it with govt bail-outs) that has caused growing inequality and the fragmented society we have now. To be clear, the white male is no more responsible for this than any other person or group of people.
So when you point at the left you're falsely diagnosing the fever as though it's the disease and not a symptom of it but worse than that you're perpetrating a FUD campaign of your own to drive home your point.
My main contention is that you seem to think that there was some magical time in history where we had 'truth', where we were critical thinkers who smelled BS a mile away, where we weren't being manipulated by people in power.
One of Peterson's arguments is that while post-modernism has a sound technical point that there are an infinite number of ways to interpret any text, he also posits that the purpose of metaphor, mythology and religion is to show us the relatively few interpretations which are demonstrably successful in real life.
And by success he means to reduce unnecessary suffering to the extent possible. He's quite anti-Utopian, which is why the left hate him so.
And for what it's worth the search for truth is something each one of us must independently undertake for ourselves.
Anyhow cutting through all of the rest, as far as I am concerned, the identity politics game, whoever plays it, is a bad one with only bad outcomes. Call that whatever you like. And if you'd been around here for the 14 years I have, you'd know that I've been copping shit for this position long before Peterson arrived on the scene.
"The ruse of re-defining the term when it gets used in a way you don't like is a pretty but transparent dodge."
That's a pretty bad faith position to take not to mention a strawman. It is easier to attack an argument when you can fit it in a box right? Consider the meme; it is an altogether modern term yet it has existed for ages, been redefined to better describe what it is and what it represents. Christianity, too, has been born again (a few too many times for my liking). So the fact that identity politics as an ideological term was coined at one point in time does not mean it hasn’t existed prior to that time and I'm not alone in my thinking on this. Francis Fukuyama says the politics of identity have been present in many countries at many times throughout history – sometimes grounded in religion, other times class. To deny identity politics it's heritage to make it easier to cut up is disingenuous.
"One of Peterson's arguments is that while post-modernism has a sound technical point that there are an infinite number of ways to interpret any text, he also posits that the purpose of metaphor, mythology and religion is to show us the relatively few interpretations which are demonstrably successful in real life."
Nothing in my comment is related to, in support of, or against postmodernism. My comment about truth is that JP believes something can be scientifically true and metaphorically false and so becomes categorically false. Furthermore, JP fails to acknowledge the role of environment; time and place in determining success. What worked in the 1800s or even the 1950s most likely will not give us success today. The guy is a nut-job with a saviour complex.
I do find it a little amusing how you've redefined your truth statement though. Whatever happened to "truth decay" and the desperate need to preserve 'it'?
"the identity politics game, whoever plays it, is a bad one with only bad outcomes. Call that whatever you like"
Well, I won't call it a game that's for sure. It's serious stuff that deserves serious consideration and discussion. I've learned so much of my own ignorance because of it. I literally cringe when I think of the shit I was spouting in my younger days. And whats more, I'm continuing to learn. I remember reading a quote that was particularly profound to me even though I'm an atheist.
“Enlightenment is a destructive process. It has nothing to do with becoming better or being happier. Enlightenment is the crumbling away of untruth. It’s seeing through the facade of pretense. It’s the complete eradication of everything we imagined to be true.”― Adyashanti
And I don't think identity politics is, in and of itself, bad in the same way that a fever isn't bad – it's an indication of serious imbalance and once you correct the problem of massive inequality you'll find it settles down on it's own. Arguments for ending the ideology itself are far more harmful because they conceal and naturalise the dominance of the right, and in so doing remove the rationale for debate.
I think this is something you're overlooking, Red. Identity politics and the grievance claims are empty chairs reserved for those who have been disenfranchised. My biggest fear is not that the ideological right will win, it's that we will all lose. It was never about white men vs the world per se, it was always and only about the haves and the have nots. As this economic cannibalistic carnival continues to grow so does the economic disparity.
"And if you'd been around here for the 14 years I have, you'd know that I've been copping shit for this position long before Peterson arrived on the scene."
I have no sympathy for you, Red. You've chosen to stand where you stand. You must like the climate.
Part of what I am reading from Red is the shift from us to I.
Society, in my lifetime, used to have many groups, institutions etc to which we belonged- sports clubs, church, community groups (Scouting, Lions) etc.
There was an aspect of service, working and belonging to something bigger than us. That has dwindled over the last few decades.
The rise of the impotance of the individual, helped along by billions of marketing dollars has changed our thinking.
Century of the Self is a fascinating look at the rise of consumerism (amongst other ideas).
Rushed, but I have to go or I will be late for work…
The most powerful words ever spoken to me, a short few words in reply to a clumsy question about our purpose in life, were these:
"We are a people of duty".
At the time I really didn't appreciate them as I should have.
PS. Yes I really enjoy Adam Curtis. Much of what the left regards as the adamantine evils of capitalism are perhaps better thought of as the unaware blindness of materialism. Just a thought.
Part of what I am reading from Red is the shift from us to I.
Yes, I've been thinking about this a lot lately. What I find fascinating is that, to me, it appears to be so paradoxical… but I'm still straightening out some thought noodles on this so will leave it there for now. I'm going to watch that doco now – looks interesting.
it was always and only about the haves and the have nots.
Thank you, a nice response. Your last section I entirely agree with.
Political truth was always malleable, it always shifted as the ground moved under us. But in order to be useful it has to be anchored in at least some empirical, objective facts.
The article I quoted, asks the question, what happens when political truth becomes un-moored from the facts, facts that no-one can even agree on?
Political truth was always malleable, it always shifted as the ground moved under us. But in order to be useful it has to be anchored in at least some empirical, objective facts.
The article I quoted, asks the question, what happens when political truth becomes un-moored from the facts, facts that no-one can even agree on?
Can you expand on your first sentence, please? I don't want to misconstrue what you're trying to say.
I don't know if I can go so far as to say there was ever a time of political truth, that anyone had it. It seems to me that once societies got bigger and more complex the need for structure and control also created exploitable power positions.
I don't think you can say that for political truth to be useful it needs to be grounded in empirical objective facts (even though I believe it ought to be) – well, historically anyway. Religion did a great job of controlling the masses for a while but required deceiving people, keeping them ignorant.
You have to consider the inherent difficulties of empirically studying human behaviour. It's not like we can grow a whole bunch of lab babies and raise them in certain environments to determine outcomes. It's in this fact that people such as yourself have levered their position yet, and ironically so, you're quite willing to flex away from empiricism when it comes to beliefs you're fond of. So why not extend the same flexibility to the left's ideology?
When shown massive amounts of data that prove systemic racism you dig your toes into research results like "no bias in cop shootings of black men" as proof of 'no racial bias'. You can't zoom in and zoom out to frame things to your liking and claim objectivity.
Take, for example, this comment of yours:
Now let's imagine a nice little democratic nation that isn't white dominated. One where say Latino, Blacks or Asians run the show. And ask yourself if these places might not have considerable 'systemic bias' against minorities of other ethnic groups. It logically follows from your argument these groups would want to demand to be 'equal citizens'.
What if one of these minorities happened to be white, are they to be excluded from being equal citizens?
And then take this thought experiment one step further and try and imagine the outcome of the small white minority in China demanding to become 'equal citizens'.
In this "thought experiment" you say that it's feasible that there would be systemic bias against a white minority (and I'm not saying I agree or disagree with you). You basically flip the racial divide to make a point about China but fail to grasp that you've described the situation Blacks and other minorities actually experience now.
How can you 'see it' here but not when we're talking about BLM? Would the Chinese not simply say to you all the same arguments you've posited because in the above scenario, they are the 'haves' and you as the white minority is the 'have nots'?
But I don't want to derail this conversation or make it about something it isn't so please understand I'm just offering that as an example.
My point is that the knowledge we have has always been subjected to a certain amount of bias due to a lack of diversity given that historically it's been men who've determined the course of knowledge to the exclusion of women and minorities. Consider that such great minds as Aristotle and Darwin both expressed unchecked bias in their work so the question must be if they made such mistakes how did their attitudes toward and beliefs about women shape the knowledge we have today? How did that bias limit or deviate to course of knowledge? What of other bias from other thinkers?
Whilst you can say well empiricism fixes that it doesn't really. It does help in some areas, like chemistry, physics and maths, but as we're discovering more and more there are so many nuanced ways in which bias can pervert outcomes – right from determining who we do research on, how we structure our research and how we interpret the results because much of our current research relies on old knowledge held as objectively true which may not be.
Consider that religion, culture and science have all been shaped by subjective beliefs first and foremost and whilst I hold science in the highest regard I don't think it's perfect or infallible – just the best tool we have and tool most frequently wielded in the hands of powerful white men.
For these reasons I don't think you can claim to be the one moored to objectivity whilst the left are 'adrift'.
Identity politics and the grievance claims are empty chairs reserved for those who have been disenfranchised … It was never about white men vs the world per se, it was always and only about the haves and the have nots.
Yeah, my heart absolutely bleeds for that cadre of former Boarding School Girls & Boys – emanating from some of the most privileged Establishment families – who dominate the Woke movement both in NZ & throughout the Anglosphere. They truly are The Great Oppressed.
Really quite emotionally moving to see an empty chair reserved for the disenfranchised of Remmers as they rise out of their subaltern slumber (in between cocktails) to Speak Truth to Power.
"He's quite anti-Utopian, which is why the left hate him so."
I think this is pretty dismissive and incorrect. JP is not anti-utopian at all – I just think he has a different idea of what constitutes a highly desirable or high quality society.
This attitude of dismissal, of scoffing at the silly left with their inability to be reasonable (which is prevalent throughout your comments) is the same attitude men had of women for a very long time. It proved foolhardy.
Because men didn't consider women to be anything other than pretty little women, children in adult bodies, they never considered that women had the potential to be just like them in the best and worst ways possible. (and no, I'm not saying there are no differences between men and women – we're obviously far better at breastfeeding!).
Not wishing to derail your fascinating dialogue, but it prompted me to read up on JP (having previously ignored him out of ignorance). Rule 11 ("Do not bother children when they are skateboarding") suggests he doesn't get the relevance of context. Such as if they are doing on the road. Or at meal time. Perhaps his chapter consists of a sequence of caveats to finesse such practicalities??
I do agree with you about identity politics being around forever (part of social psychodynamics). Warriors identified each other by their helmets etc in the classical era, Roman senators by their togas, in the sense of tribe or class identity. But RL using it in an academic sense is also correct of course. Both/and logic applies.
Ethos is relevant, eh? If you share it, you identify with others who do. Thus I don't share that of the woke – yet I do share some of their values. How one uses values (to divide, or to include) seems the crux (praxis).
Re: JP. There's a running joke about JP where if you ask him a question his answer will invariably start with "Well, it depends on what you mean by X". He's a weasel speaker whose ambiguous language means you can't really pin him down on anything he says. If you pointed out his statement lacks the nuance of context he's say well it depends what you mean by context then launch into some ethereal waffle featuring religious symbology, evil feminine chaos dragons and lobsters.
I've read all his books, watched his videos. It was painful but necessary.
I do understand Red's position and where he's planted his flag in terms of identity politics. I am compelled by my inner brat to shake off all attempts to label and/or contain my beliefs to ideological boxes. I know that makes me sound like some uber edgelord but I'm not – in truth I'm about as edgy as a wet sandwich. My reluctance is more about the fact that common narratives tend to 'fit you up' – if you ascribe to one popular belief you're assumed to hold all the other beliefs commonly associated with that belief as well. I'm still figuring out what it is I actually believe and don't want to be fenced in. So, whilst I reference identity politics I do so conceptually rather than politically if that makes sense.
Ethos is relevant, eh? If you share it, you identify with others who do. Thus I don't share that of the woke – yet I do share some of their values. How one uses values (to divide, or to include) seems the crux (praxis).
This is interesting. You're gonna have to tell me what your definition of 'woke' is because as a politicised label it's quite loaded and I don't want to infer meaning.
I don't think people intentionally divide. I think perhaps people attempt to refine or define and in so doing can have divisiveness as a consequence but I think even that is a simplistic description of what's happening. I'm seeing a lot of paradoxical connections that I'm not sure what to make of. It's either that I'm misconstruing connections or there really is this whole other side that isn't divisive at all but rather about loss of democratic choices (something SPC said got me thinking). If I sound waffley it's because I'm not 'there' yet with the idea so I need to let it ferment a bit longer.
Perhaps you could expand on your point a bit more, let me see inside that head of yours? We've not engaged a lot so it's difficult for me to know what you're about to give your words context.
tell me what your definition of 'woke' is because as a politicised label it's quite loaded and I don't want to infer meaning
I don't define it – I've acquired a hazy sense of what it means. Politically-correct herding seems to be the mass psychology involved. I also see group narcissism there – a presumption that, having arrived at a consensus around social values, all those who haven't done so are wrong. So we get that projection of moral supremacy from them collectively.
Mature folks watching are liable to see this exhibition of syndromes as juvenile or puerile. Character is developmental, and it is unreasonable to expect anyone to figure stuff out simultaneously with others. We all have different social niches to form our values, we learn from different experiences and at different rates. It's a wonder we ever share culture at all!
So broad-mindedness & tolerance of diversity is opposed by woke narrow-minded intolerant preference for monoculture. Greens believe in biodiversity. Woke Greens are frauds!
Identity politics polarises. The future, for humanity, lies in the commons. Identifying common ground is real hard for a partisan. So possessed by group narcissism and the compulsive requirement of conformity to separatism, the woke activist will always shy away from the necessity of acquiring humanity. Yet doing so is a survival skill. Thus the woke will not survive as a social movement.
I understand your frustration with the current social movement. It can be incredibly destabilising to see established norms broken down and labelled as 'bad' or 'wrong'. Having our behaviour and beliefs pointed out in a critical way often feels like a personal attack because we're emotionally invested in them. This isn't a bad thing; it's actually necessary and the result of our successful biological evolution. As a social species being able to cooperate and have shared values is essential to survival as you rightly pointed out.
I think it's important to consider that other people are under the very same evolutionary influences, are subjected to the same evolved psychological tendencies. I'd like to make two key points here.
Firstly, it helps break the familial bond. As a child grows up their primary source of learning comes from the family unit which creates strong emotional bonds but in order to develop a healthy sexual appreciation for the opposite sex they must effectively break the bonded information from its emotional ties. So we see younger people start to value peer group sources for learning over familial groups. The added benefit of doing so reduces the chances of repeating 'stupid parent' mistakes by broadening his or her perspectives of "normal" and "acceptable" behaviour and beliefs.
Secondly, this dissolution of boundaries exposes the adolescent brain to greater influence from their peers with the end goal of learning how to say no to peer influence. Basically, the teen is forced into an environment full of temptation in order to develop the strength to resist it. This is essential in order to avoid falling into 'stupid group' behaviour at a time when they need to be stable and disciplined in order to be a good parent.
Because of these influences I think it's important we don't assume there are fundamental flaws in what they're doing but keep their behaviour in context. What's more, we can learn from their apparent destruction of social norms by considering the validity of things they're exposing.
Social norms are vital to group cohesion and success yet they must also be fit-for-purpose and given our environment changes so rapidly (especially since the industrial revolution) we must frequently test our norms to see if they're still relevant. I, for one, am grateful for these challenges because without them we might still be selling slaves and imprisoning women suspected of having STDs.
The other point I'd like to make is in regard to how we perceive the actions of others. Biases, of which we have over 200, are often alluded to as flaws in thinking or are pointed out as a means to discredit the perspectives of others. Whilst I acknowledge that I'm pointing out bias in your perspective I'm doing so with the caveat that I'm also biased as is everyone, always.
Wikipedia starts its page on cognitive bias with this statement: "Cognitive biases are systematic patterns of deviation from norm[al] or rational judgement" This statement suggests that rationality is the norm. However, if you go to the linked reference material you find the authors actually say cognitive biases are not deviations but rather the normal way we process information.
"The conclusion that many biases are not the result of constraints or mysterious irrationalities also speaks to the ongoing debate about human rationality. Our perspective suggests that biases often are not design flaws, but design features." (source:The Handbook of Evolutionary Psychology by David M. Buss, pg 725)
So everyone is subjected to the same biased thinking and we are all burdened with the responsibility of employing critical thinking when making judgments. https://youtu.be/AK0GYBTNx5Q
I think this is really important because if you consider your perspective from a rational POV you can see that what they're doing and pointing out has been done right throughout history – the challenging and breaking down of old social norms in order to test for relevance. Whilst you might say they're focusing on differences rather than commonalities they do so to break down the criteria for sorting, not to destroy sorting.
The old way was just as separatist in that men and women were relegated to strict and separate social norms, racial segregation kept whites and blacks apart as fundamentally different and religious separation kept Christians apart from "heathens". What's more, they're challenging the old sorting criteria in order to find better more reasonable ways of ensuring equal access to resources, fairer application of laws and legal protection and a more refined and nuanced understanding of what it is to be human first and foremost.
In this way, you can look at their behaviour as a sort of ethical spring cleaning and like spring cleaning, you often have to make a mess to clean one up.
Now, I'm not saying I agree with all of the outcomes or actions – certainly this 'cancel culture' is problematic but I argue that it isn't representative of the entire left nor is it the demands for firing or silencing opposition for a vocal minority that is problematic but how we're responding to it.
Why are companies and institutions bowing to public pressure so quickly and without proper due process? Could it be that in an age where being profitable is so highly dependent on popularity that we've exorcised critical thinking as dissension's bastard? Perhaps then this 'mess' we have is the consequence of the capitalist tendency to monetise everything which has left society vulnerable to the demands of an increasingly vocal & irrational leftist faction who are now no more representative of the political left than neo-Nazism is of the political right.
Thanks for that thoughtful response Maggie. Nothing there I'd dispute. I suspected it was a peer-group driven movement (primarily, with some traction of solidarity amongst those who went pc during the '90s).
And I'm aware of the emotional rooting that bias emerges from, having had to transcend various of mine in the past! I'm willing to tolerate the woke but may have to express irritation from time to time if the phenomenon persists – I suspect it is already waning.
And yes, conflating it with the left isn't sensible, except it regard to the critique that the left tend to be privileged (middle-class) nowadays whereas in the 19th century they were identified as lower-class (wrongly, I've learnt from reading about the activists of that era). Idealism in regard to the better world envisioned is widely shared, so any critique of the woke can't focus on that. It must focus on behaviour.
I appreciate the rational discussion Dennis. All to often I find myself caught up in conversations where I'm constantly having to say "I didn't say/mean that" and I admit my tone is often the cause of such misunderstandings. I'm not very good at predicting how others will take me as I tend to be blunt AF.
I've had to wrestle with my own bias and was a pretty radical feminist some time back. Whilst I still support feminism I've become far more moderate and have broadened my perspective by leaning in to MRA conversations and listening to their POV. This helped me understand that most people want the same things but tend to speak from their pain points in order to express those desires.
And I'll continue to wrestle my biases which flair up like a bad rash every now and again. Conversations like this one make that easier to do so cheers 🙂
When it comes to understanding true motivations of a person I never take a person at their word. Like, ever. Truth is found in between their words, in what they hide, not what they put in the shop window.
Everything about JP says to me that this guy is desperate to preserve an ideal culture in which he feels he has value. And that's not a criticism of him. It's something we all do to certain degrees.
We all write narratives in which we are winners.* Even if we cast ourselves as victims we do so to make a claim that redeems us from blame, we become survivors (and thus mythological heroes of our own history) by pointing out our victimisation. Those who’ve ‘succeeded’ in societal terms do the very same. What mightier hero is there than one who’s escaped their chains and slain sloth to rise above the mediocre.
The right point at the left and label them hysterical whilst comforted by their own “rational” narrative but if you read the majority of right leaning editorials and opinion pieces the “hysteria” is no less present. It just walks along to the monotonous nod of a well-scripted narrative; they just produce better arguments (but not truer ones). The right are the "lawyers" of political discourse – finders of loopholes, committed to winning, not truth.
*Note: I feel the need to clarify that these narratives don't invalidate any suffering or victimisation a person has suffered in their lifetime. This isn't about real life experiences and whether they're justifiably painful but rather the narrative construct – the fictionalised reality we cast for ourselves in our minds.
"So I provide three links where JP explains in detail one thing, and you assure us you know that he must really mean something else.
No wonder you didn't understand a word he said."
"us" Odd choice of pronoun there, Red. Is it a priest or psychiatrist you need because I'm pretty sure you're not speaking for a collective.
You, know, sometimes I just lurk and read the conversations on here. You learn so much about people by watching how they interact with others, when they get pissy, over what and with whom. It paints an interesting picture of the inner emotional and psychological world of the speaker. 🙂
This attitude of dismissal, of scoffing at the silly left with their inability to be reasonable
Don't conflate the irrational, uber-relativist Intersectional Cult with the broader Left movement it's trying to hi-jack.
Because men didn't consider women to be anything other than pretty little women, children in adult bodies
Gross generalisation that I'd expect from the more ideologically insular, historically-ignorant & dogmatic extremes of the Feminist Movement. Doesn't tally with the familial relationships of my forbears at all.
The irony being that the Woke of both sexes do tend toward – not so much children – as petulant teenagers in adult bodies. Narcissistic, demanding & controlling. Presumably a corollary of significant affluence & massive over-indulgence when growing up.
Perhaps a better education system for all that really emphasises critical thinking is the best solution.
the assault is a one way flow.
Oh come on ! Do you think we don't have outright propaganda directed at us via the Murdoch press for instance !!!
An example being the way the Murdoch press harps on about anti semitism whenever anyone crticises Israel ,while Murdoch himself has oil interests in the Golan Heights he'd be able to exploit if the GH were annexed.
The Dream Genie Team
President Trump has a direct personal interest in Genie energy through Ira Greenstein a Kushner family Lawyer and former President of Genie Energy who has worked for the Trump administration as a Legal aide.
"Genie Energy was founded by Howard Jonas a telecoms billionaire; staunch supporter of Netanyahu and long-time friend of the Kushner family. For a company anonymously located in a very shabby part of New Jersey, that few people have even heard of, It is probably the most influential on the planet, its strategic advisory board reads like a Who’s who of Geopolitical Puppet masters comprising some of the Western World’s most influential figures including Former American Vice-President and President/C.E.O of Halliburton Dick Cheney, Ex-CIA Director James Woolsey, Banking tycoon Lord Jacob Rothschild and Media mogul, Rupert Murdoch."
The way Syria is being represented in the Murdoch press is heavily influenced by Murdoch's interests .Just one example .We're not above being lied to by our media Iraq another
Well that is the exact point I linked to and quoted; propaganda is nothing new, pretty much everyone does it. But where do we draw the line?
Are we going to allow the authoritarian states … who's only goal is maintaining and expanding the power of it's leaders for life …. to openly undermine the ideals of the democratic west?
Just to put this into perspective. Of the 200 odd nations on earth, barely 30 truly count as developed and decent places to live, countries where the freedoms, rights and rule of law we take for granted are commonplace. Although partly as a consequence of these characteristics these nations are also very successful and prosperous, it's a mistake to imagine they are also invulnerable to internal damage.
Who counts them Red?
I wouldn’t personally be counting the US at the moment
Are these countries undermining democratic ideals or pointing to the deficits of those countries ?
Any democratic ideals in the UK are tarnished by the unbelievable treatment of Assange, and the media’s abdication of any responsibility towards free journalism
There is of course no binary distinction here; all the nations can be placed on a spectrum from best to worst. And then there are multiple dimensions of desirability we could use. But one way of measuring it was done by a recent Gallop poll (I've linked to it before) that showed some 750m people, 10% of the human race, would migrate right now if they could.
And almost all want to go to the Anglo/Euro nations of the developed world. That's called voting with your feet.
I'd certainly agree the US is by no means the best of this group, it was toppled from that position decades ago. And this is a deficit they certainly need to address; it will take a decade of turmoil to show results.
But let's not look any closer are why those nations are wealthy and desirable. It must be democracy most of them have had for less than a hundred years or so, can't possibly have anything to do with the three or four hundred years before that. Or anything they did while being so "democratic".
But let's not look any closer are why those nations are wealthy and desirable.
It's a very good question; one that I believe Jared Diamond's Guns, Germs and Steel gave a very good answer to. If you really want to understand modern geopolitics this book is the essential starting point. (It ain't perfect, nor complete, but it remains a solid foundation.)
Empire, exploitation, slavery and the oppression of minorities is nothing new. It probably dates back to at least when modern humans probably eradicated Neanderthals in Europe, and it has to be fully acknowledged that the intersection of this ancient paradigm, with the industrialised technologies of 17 and 18th century Europe, took it to a wholly new, intense and deplorable level.
But that colonial era came to a functional end at the close of WW2. Colonialism is no longer the sole or even best explanation for their ongoing success and desirability, at least compared to much of the rest of the world.
no, shh, it's totes just "democracy", right? Nothing to do with the geopolitical dominance the colonial powers maintained post ww2 (replacing "colonialism" with "hegemony") or geopolitical proxy wars and destabilisation campaigns.
Let's just leave it that "democracy" is the primary reason the colonial powers are still largely dominant (and desirable migration destinations).
The left likes to imagine the US got rich on the back of it's global security dominance in the post WW2 era.
Apart from the fact that it was the US manufacturing dominance that was a very large reason why the Allies won WW2 before they set up their security hegemon, it's also wrong on the data. In reality the US actually trades relatively little with the rest of the world as a percentage of it's GDP.
Indeed from the US perspective, if the rest of the world outside North and Latin America were to sink beneath the waves tomorrow, they'd barely notice, much less give a shit. Many would breath a deep sigh of relief and go back to being prosperous thank you very much.
Being world trade's default currency was no advantage at all.
An advantage that cuts both ways. If say Argentinians want to trade with Egyptian's … neither country has any use for each other's currency, so having one dominant hard currency that everyone could use was a tremendous benefit to everyone.
And providing a global security environment, freedom of trade and shipping for all nations, (even their enemies) came at no cost either?
I'm not arguing the post WW2 US led trade order was the ideal arrangement, or that it was without flaws. But it was almost certainly better than anything that came before. A fact that we are about to discover quite brutally as it disintegrates before our eyes over the next few years.
Look, stop the distractions, it must be the world's lack of democracy.
No need to bring up things like that multinationals don't necessarily patriate all their overseas income derived from CIA-backed dictatorships (although the value is reflected in their share prices), and the US leases for military establishments were routinely cheap because they were acquired from those dictatorships or countries they had just defeated (Rammstein, Subic, Guantanamo, Yokota), or the outright colonial possessions for their allies (in the case of Diego Garcia).
And then we have no need at all to mention the CIA practise of destabilising any government (no matter how democratic) that showed any effort to lower inequality in its population, because "communism".
You put your finger on it: the rest of the world is less desirable to live in only for the reason that it doesn't have (or only recently was gifted via B52) democracy. Any other explanation must be false (otherwise you might have to accept reality).
Indeed from the US perspective, if the rest of the world outside North and Latin America were to sink beneath the waves tomorrow, they'd barely notice, much less give a shit.
Its called going to where the jobs are, not necessarily because of democratic ideals .Why are the jobs there ..Empire and wealth accumulation were got not from democracy ,but military advantage and plunder going back generations .It's why Hondurans to this day go to the States
And a large proportion will be going where there is a common language..English…taught pretty well universally .Why?
Colonialism and Empire mean English became the language of trade.and therefore taught .
Empire and wealth accumulation were got not from democracy ,but military advantage and plunder going back generations
In that case why are Spain and Portugal, or the core nations of any of the historic empires not centres of world power to this day? The reason is simple and obvious, the passing of time has eroded away any advantage. The last empire of the type you are thinking of ended with WW2
It's why Hondurans to this day go to the States
Again the problem of having only one tool in the box. Honduras will always be poorer than the USA for a whole range of geographic reasons that have nothing to do politics. Similar to why Greenland will never be a wealthy nation. Geography matters.
English…taught pretty well universally
Well yes. The need for a universal language in a globalised world is so urgent and necessary that we defaulted to the one most at hand. It could have easily been Spanish or French but for a few accidents of history.
Esperanto was once considered a popular alternative for just this purpose. In an ideal world we might eventually arrive at a universal language acceptable to all.
Spain and Portugal lost the bulk of their colonial empires in the 19th century. The US and UK built the bulk of their empires in the 19th century. The Spanish and portuguese lost favoured trade relations with many of their former colonial powers. UK has the commonwealth, and the thirteen colonies gained much of North America in the same time period that Spain lost hers, and US only lost some of their richer dominions in the mid-late 20C (e.g. Cuba, Philipines) (and both expanded their systems of trade, until particular unpleasantries recently entered office in their respective capitals).
Additionally, modern imperialists exercise a more distant style of control that colonialism, but it is still imperial control. Look at Gough Whitlam or Allende if you want to argue about that. It's the dominance of the Roman Republic, not the dominion of the "United Kingdom" (yes, the roman republic differed from the empire because the roman empire had an actual emperor, but this is geopolitical terminology not classical studies).
But even so, I wonder how many ships get tied up at portuguese or spanish docks that were paid for by their own Colstons. I doubt that no advantages remain from their own days of empire.
Additionally, modern imperialists exercise a more distant style of control that colonialism, but it is still imperial control.
Again your reflexive bias against anything American means nuance becomes impossible. Just slap the word 'imperial' on it and job done.
The US hegemon is actually quite different from the British Empire that proceeded it. There are for a start no real colonies of any significance. Certainly there are military bases and a few small island nations, but absolutely nothing compared to the scale of the British.
Secondly, the British model (and all others prior to it) compelled almost all trade to be directed to the centre, for the benefit of the centre. And they navy necessary to defend this trade, protected imperial trade and no-one elses. The American model has been quite the opposite in this respect, all nations are able with relatively few constraints to trade with almost all others. And remarkably enough the US Navy provided the 'freedom of navigation' for everyone to do this at no cost.
Throw in energy independence, and the USA has comparatively little need to trade with the wider world, beyond a few specialised raw materials they can easily manage to source if necessary. This is a key point that was overlooked by everyone, the USA hegemon was never about making the US wealthy in the old imperial 'suck all the resources in to the centre' model. The unique geography of the US made them so natively wealthy that it was never necessary.
The purpose of the hegemon was to defeat the Soviets in the Cold War. The Americans knew they did not want to fight the Russians on the ground, so they essentially bribed up a global alliance which said, "we will let you trade with anyone, protect your trade, provide the finance, get you out of poverty, get rich even, but you have to be on our side against the Soviets".
And so long as you played by their rules the Americans generally left you alone. With some exceptions of course, but for the most part they used the least force necessary to ensure everyone stuck to the bargain.
Am I defending this US model as ideal? Of course not, everyone is aware of the mistakes and disasters along the way. But the crucial point is that compared to anything that came before it, the Americans, almost accidentally, created something the world has never seen before. It took us in the direction of the ideal, of a truly federalised world of equal nations. And for all of it's shortcomings the US trade order has delivered an astonishing modest prosperity for billions …. for the first time in human history fully half the human race is middle class by local standards. (That's quite an achievement for something so half-arsed, imagine if we did it properly.)
I realise the far left hates this narrative, but if we are serious about the universal elimination of poverty it is deeply dishonest to discount it.
I wonder how many ships get tied up at portuguese or spanish docks that were paid for by their own Colstons.
The economic life of most fixed assets is around 50 – 80 years. So no, any economic advantage anyone gained from slavery is long gone.
And if you want to argue for some other less tangible advantage gained from slavery somehow passed down the generations, keep in mind that the briefest of overviews tells us that until the Industrial Revolution ended it, slavery in some form or another was ubiquitous. Where do you want to draw the line? Only when white people did it?
Actually, I wasn't just thinking of the yanks. As soon as limpet mines and assault rifles made revolutionaries near-peer adversaries for anyone with boots on the ground, the imperial model du jour moved back towards client states rather that outright occupation.That's why the yanks transitioned from occupying the Philippines until 1941 to merely having client dictators throughout most of the Cold War.
But aren't we lucky that the yanks only dominated clients to stop the soviets, and were in no way continuing their imperial expansion from before WW2. I mean, they found another excuse to keep the hegemony going after the cold war, too, so there's that.
You're so full of shit that the boots you lick so frequently must have been wading through it.
But tell us again how the yanks aren't an imperial power. It'll fascinate folks from Puerto Rico to Hawaii, the long way around.
Maybe you got confused when I said above:
"Certainly there are military bases and a few small island nations, but absolutely nothing compared to the scale of the British."
Absolutely every claim I've made I'm willing to back up in extensive detail. But I'm not wasting the effort on someone who can't even read the most elementary points without getting lost and losing patience.
The Philippines? Client regimes like Argentina, Greece, Iran, Iraq, and every other nation that received billions in military aid and advice on torturing political opponents?
Seriously – you believe that the post-ww2 US foreign policy consisted of a few islands and military bases (which would have been similar to any number of global outposts of the British Empire, even if that was the limit of similarity)?
The mainstream narrative of such movements of people often reduces the causes of migration to factors unfolding in migrants’ home countries. In reality, migration is often a manifestation of a profoundly unequal and exploitative relationship between countries from which people emigrate and countries of destination.
Yup, as I said above, the global US trade order was not without it's failures. I've never argued it was a perfect or ideal system; just better than anything that came before it.
The problem for Latin America, Honduras, Nicuargua and Cuba in particular, is that early century US business interests essentially undertook a proto-colonial foray into the region. A similar parallel can be found with say the British East India Company in India several hundred years earlier. But at the same time no US Federal govt was ever interested in going the next step of turning them into full territorial colonies.
This has meant the unfortunate peoples of these countries got the worst of both worlds, all the merchantile exploitation with none of the stable governance.
Then of course there was the Cold War, and we too easily forget the intensity of that period. The US repeatedly overreacted to perceived communist/socialist threats and footholds in their hemisphere. Their hugely advantageous security position was their big strategic advantage over the Soviets, and they were not going to relinquish it lightly.
Put these two realities together and yes Latin America is the zone where the US global trade order functioned badly. That is a legitimate objection, yet in many ways the contrast with how events unfolded elsewhere in the world where these factors did not apply … is instructive.
Also easily overlooked is that the USA itself is founded as an exercise in anti-colonialism, the great break-away from the British Empire, and this has always formed a large element of their foreign policy ever since. The fact that there are 200 odd independent nations in the world now, and no great imperiums of old, is largely due to the US imposing their own alternative reality on the ground.
What happens when the US fully stops imposing that reality over the next decade is the urgent question we should be thinking about.
Taiwan News said that "the communist regime is said to have noticed an authority vacuum in online multiplayer games, which enables people to socialize without monitoring freely. Local metropolises are scrambling to draft laws to expand the scope of online censorship in video games and even prohibit gamers from meeting and chatting with people on the other side of the Great Firewall."
Apparently, even allowing people to chat with the West is now frowned upon by the Chinese authorities.
Does anyone think asymmetry is not being exploited to our manifest disadvantage?
I'd hope not but there's going to be someone out there with the belief that, no matter what China does, allowing permanent residence with voting is all good and they simply won't believe that China will use this as a way to attack us.
In making your comment about Australia being targeted by a foreign nation's cyber goons, you seem to have channelled the language of an earlier time, when that nation ran a white population policy.
Of that earlier time pre Asian students (the first here may have been Chinese Malaysians under a Commonwealth programem back in the 70's when Malaysia began a Malay first into their universities policy) and changes to our own immigration policy (1986 or so).
Of course you may have been going for chink in the Oz cyber security armour, or noting how political campaigns of the Bannon type are nationalist in nature and returning us back to the past.
Or all of the above simultaneously. Literary references have ever been a minefield of controversy, eh? A standard method for ensuring that readers never die of boredom, even. And postmodernism has the upside of providing an ever so thick layer of icing on that cake. Readers can indulge their knee-jerk subjective reactions to their heart's content. An immensely satisfying recipe.
Nah, just habitual slang use from way back. No intention to traumatise. If the moderator gets freaked out, happy to see it corrected to Chinese or communist or both! The idea that folks get traumatised by slang usage is so wacky that it never enters my head. 🙄 And I will now investigate your link thanks…
Well, that was a waste of time. Some org that only wants to recruit facebook users. Terminally-shallow brainwashed army has been done many times previously, why bother??
But how significant? No evidence that any component of the US foreign policy establishment has adopted it as yet. The Council for Foreign Relations would be the one to watch for that. Could be a next Bilderberger conference topic… https://bilderbergmeetings.org/index.html
I think the time has come for the Prime Minister to seriously consider ceasing her weekly interview with Mike Hosking. This morning's performance was a litany of disrespect, misogyny, dishonesty and rudeness to the point of verbal abuse. He effectively called her a liar.
It is all very well maintaining a remarkable level of equilibrium in the face of such belittling attacks, but he is slowly but surely painting Jacinda as a PM out of her depth. It is part of the overall National Party attack strategy of course and their media puppets like Hosking know exactly the role they are to play within that strategy.
She has every excuse to bypass him with a pandemic in progress as well as leading the country out of the economic recession in its wake.
Bolton was recruited by James A Baker III, like McCain a Republican lion, Ronald Reagan’s chief of staff and George HW Bush’s secretary of state. To quote Baker, “John’s an extraordinarily bright guy.”
So what's happening is a battle for the soul of the Republican Party. Recall that George Will resigned from the party when it selected the huckster as candidate. Principled rightists may be a minority, but they've long been at the heart of the US political establishment. Ever tried to do a count of right-wing US think-tanks?? I once did and encountered so many I hadn't known about that I became mildly depressed.
According to whistleblower Christopher Wylie: “Bolton Pac was obsessed with how America was becoming limp-wristed and spineless and it wanted research and messaging for national security issues.” In his book, Bolton’s description is more modest: “In late 2013, I formed a Pac and a Super Pac to aid House and Senate candidates who believed in a strong US national security policy.”
Bolton as would-be dragonslayer. Trump as paper tiger. What to do? Last week Colin Powell went public, declaring he will vote for Biden. Other influential Republicans, similarly disaffected, are more likely to stay home than vote for Trump or his China stooge opponent.
Red storm rising seems somewhat melodramatic for a framing headline, but I guess media have to raise consciousness, and the contrast between Trumpian rhetoric and action follow-through has to be examined.
The concern expressed by Banks impressed me via his moderate, level, yet empathic tone. I hadn't seen Dobbs since he was fronting the money segment for CNN way back, but he's matured into less of a moron than he was.
Four breaches of Taiwan air-space in nine days is clearly a sustained attempt at forceful messaging. Banks told us Pompeo's meeting with the Chinese hierarchy in Hawaii was at China's request. Thus a two-pronged strategy by them.
Which may well be the primary question in their election. I can imagine zillions deciding to vote for Trump while holding their nose, if he puts that question into their heads in the final week or two of the campaign.
Which may well be the primary question in their election. I can imagine zillions deciding to vote for Trump while holding their nose, if he puts that question into their heads in the final week or two of the campaign.
Indeed, Dennis.
Furthermore, it is a question many around the world are asking while thinking what will it mean for them/us living in a China dominated world?
Those paranoid folks anticipating such a future need reassurance. The future is way more likely to be multipolar at the level of geopolitics.
The US foreign policy establishment is huge. If Biden wins and attempts to wimp out on his responsibilities to them, they will find a way to pull his plug. Expect him to die in office in that future (natural causes, due to stress, most likely). His VP, a black woman, will have been already primed on how to present as authoritative and persuasive. Velvet glove.
If you look around you'll find the paranoia is well justified. It has long been touted China is the model many of the global elite subscribe too. Hence, many of them helped China implement it while allowing it to become a growing global threat.
Anne, in some respects Hosking is turning people off by his extreme interviewing. I know several people who have lately commented they have been disgusted by him. I have never heard them previously make any comment.
I don’t know what editorial policy is in place for media to be balanced.
However, no wonder people so admire Jacinda for her stoic putting up with him. He is filled with hate and bitterness. It would not be so bad if he put the opposition through the same barrage. What a vile man.
Editorial policy about being balanced? The balance they're interested in is whether the books balance.
Last week a banner headline had it of a Mike Hosking interview, Hosking v Whomever. The whomever was the particular politician he interviewed that day.
When interviews are to be sporting fixtures and about winners and losers we need to get real and see them and the media presenting them for what they are.
We get the glib expressions about 'holding politicians to account.' We get those like Hosking and Peter Williams seeming to think they are doing God's work. It is a travesty that it has got to the stage that politicians have to appear in regular time slots on radio and tv. Surely they should be accessible and answer question but now people like Hosking has them over a barrel. Not doing so has them pilloried, and slammed for not fronting.
If during the time of pandemic Beehive pressers Ardern had said to Hosking she wasn't available to him how would he have performed? I can imagine him being one who slammed her for doing those sessions. If she'd said, "My availability is through that session, you're welcome to attend and ask questions," how would he have treated?
Of course Hosking should not chair any TV leaders sessions for the election. He is not a journalist, he is an opinion giver who has continually poured scorn on Ardern. He has an agenda.
Our glorious ex leader Mr Key refused to appear on RadioNZ for most of his first term, and few were too concerned, because they were tuned to ZB or the Edge where he did appear, to share his “shower urinating stories”.
Which is a round about way of saying the PM needs to be where people are. Figure out a better method of slapping down Maserati Mike perhaps rather than banning the ripped jean tosser.
Boris is being machiavellian: using leftists to eliminate wokeism. Are wokesters really such a deserving threat? I doubt it. Ordinary folk think they're a joke.
Munira Mirza, formerly of the Spiked website, a successor organisation to the Revolutionary Communist party (RCP), is urging him to rebuild his shattered popularity by launching a “war on the woke”.
Founded in 2001, as the UK’s first online only political magazine, we have carved out an international reputation as, in the words of the New York Times, an ‘often-biting British publication fond of puncturing all manner of ideological balloons’ — fearless in challenging orthodoxy and fighting for free speech.
Leftist believers in free speech were everywhere when I was young. Good to know a bastion remains in the UK. I wonder if they use a castle & moat?
Go for the libtards, the PC, the leftists and the bleeding hearts, the head of the No 10 policy unit urges. Use tiny threats to Winston Churchill’s statues to whip up your supporters’ cultural fear and divert their attention from a country ravaged by disease and descending into a slump. The presence of the ex-revolutionaries in a rightwing debate shows the distance from asinine far leftism to paranoid conservatism is nowhere near as great as the innocent imagine.
Political culture wars as mass entertainment is a looming trend, obviously, so we can expect things to get even more Alice In Wonderland for quite a while yet…
edit
Back to the future – some thoughts about climate change results written in 2015 – what we can look forward to – Covid-19 is part of the problems we have to adjust to. The anomic-atomic business world wished for 'disruption' as being good for business. They have got that, so what do they want to do with it?
The danger [from] one metre is mostly economic in that so much infrastructure will be lost that it will cripple the economy and also that of most countries around the world. My blog points to some of the city losses in NZ but a lot of Florida disappears, a huge amount of farmland in the UK and of course Holland.
The biggest worry is the displacement of hundreds of millions of people which will cause civil strife as families are displaced and will cross borders looking for a safe place to live. Worrying about the occasional flood is the least of your worries when you are sharing your property with twenty refugees and the economy is bankrupt.
This story says so much about National's scare campaign on quarantine. Their MPs (Kaye, Woodhouse) have sided with a small number of well-off residents at the Stamford Plaza in Auckland, and against the hotel staff who could lose their jobs as a consequence.
It's the same as Todd McClay in Rotorua, who is up in arms about the local hotels being used. Meanwhile National do want the hotels used for quarantine in Queenstown. They are all over the place.
Lisa Owen gave Kaye an easy ride on Checkpoint. Didn't even raise the charge of aiding and abetting nimbyism for the political advantage of claiming that things are 'chaotic'.
Abraham said at the weekend that concerns about those in residential parts of the complex mixing with quarantiners were based on false information.
"The hotel and the residences are separate and distinct components. Any common access points between the hotel and the residences will be closed during the applicable period, can be effectively locked to ensure that residents and the intended guest of Stamford are kept separate at all times," he said.
Entrances were clearly separated with no opportunity for the residents and the intended guests of the Stamford to interact, Abraham said.
Are we surprised that the residents of Stamford Plaza being advised by Woodhouse got the story wrong? This lead to the transfer of detainees to Rotorua instead which then was aired by Woodhouse as he claims, being so wrong.
Almost as if we need a profession whose job it is to take what panicked people say and check it out before passing it on. Used to have a name for that..
It’s normal for appartments like this to have covenants on their titles restricting the residents ability to object to anything the hotel does in their normal operations. The Hotel is rather pissed off and is threatening legal action against the residents.
After Tulsa, now Jacksonville. Less a dogwhistle, more of a human whistle:
President Trump’s planned convention speech in Jacksonville, Florida, on Aug. 27 falls on the city’s 60th anniversary of a brutal KKK-orchestrated attack on black activists known as “Ax Handle Saturday.”
Its a law like gravity: whenever a right-wing government is elected, they start attacking democracy. And now, after talking to their Republican and Tory and Fidesz chums at the International Democracy Union forum in Wellington, National is doing it here, announcing plans to remove election-day enrolment. Or, to put it ...
Yesterday Winston Peters focussed his attention on the important matter at hand. Tweeting. Like the former, and quite possibly next, orange POTUS, from whom he takes much of his political strategy, Winston is an avid X’er.His message didn’t resemble an historic address this time. In fact it was more reminiscent ...
Buzz from the Beehive A significant decline in natural gas production has given Resources Minister Shane Jones an opportunity to reiterate his enthusiasm for the mining and burning of coal. For good measure, he has praised an announcement from Genesis Energy that it will resume importing coal. He and Energy ...
“Follow the money” is the classic directive to journalists trying to understand where power and influence lie in society. In terms of uncovering who influences various New Zealand political parties and governments, it therefore pays to look at who is funding them. The political parties are legally obliged to make ...
Rob MacCullough writes – Here is my subjective ranking on a “most-left” to “most-right” scale of most of our major NZ Universities, with some anecdotal (and at times amusing) evidence to back up the claim.Extreme Left Auckland University of TechnologyEvidenceThe ...
Eric Crampton writes – I hadn’t thought about this one until a helpful email showed up in my inbox.It’s pretty obvious that income tax thresholds should automatically index with inflation – whether to anchor the thresholds in percentiles of the income distribution, or to anchor against a real ...
Jacqui Van Der Kaay writes – Parliament’s speaker had no option but to refer Green MP Julie Anne Genter to the Privileges Committee for her behaviour in the House last Wednesday evening. The incident, in which she crossed the floor to wave a book and yell at National ...
Gary Judd writes – The Dean of the law school at the Auckland University of Technology is someone called Khylee Quince. I have been sent her social media posting in which she has, over the LawNews headline “Senior King’s Counsel files complaint about compulsory tikanga Maori studies for ...
Cleo Paskal writes – WASHINGTON, D.C.: ‘Many of us have received phone calls from [the opposing camp] telling them if they join the camp they will be given projects for their wards and $300,000 [around US$35,000] each’, says former Malaita Premier Daniel Suidani. The elections in Solomon Islands aren’t ...
With hindsight, it was inevitable that (a) Hamas would agree to the ceasefire deal brokered by Egypt and Qatar and that ( b) Israel would then immediately launch attacks on Rafah, regardless. We might have hoped the concessions made by Hamas would cause Israel to desist from slaughtering thousands more ...
Placards and mourners outside the Kilbirnie Mosque following the Christchurch terror attack: MSD has terminated the Kaiwhakaoranga service, which has been used by 415 families since the attacks. Photo: Lynn GrievesonTL;DR: The Government’s pledge to only cut ‘back office’ staff rather than ‘frontline’ services is on increasingly shaky ground, with ...
There’s been a few smaller public transport announcements over the last week or so that I thought I’d cover in a single post. Fareshare I’ve long called for Auckland Transport to offer a way to enable employer-subsidised public transport options. The need for this took on even more importance ...
Parliament’s speaker had no option but to refer Green MP Julie Anne Genter to the Privileges Committee for her behaviour in the House last Wednesday evening. The incident, in which she crossed the floor to wave a book and yell at National Minister Matt Doocey, reflects poorly on Genter and ...
On February 14, 2023 we announced our Rebuttal Update Project. This included an ask for feedback about the added "At a glance" section in the updated basic rebuttal versions. This weekly blog post series highlights this new section of one of the updated basic rebuttal versions and serves as a ...
Who likes being sneered at? Nobody. Worse yet, when the sneerer has their facts all wrong, and might well be an idiot.The sneer in question is The adults are in charge now, and it is a sneer offered in retort to criticism of this new Government, no matter how well ...
When in government, Labour pushed to extend the Parliamentary term to four years, to reduce accountability and our ability to vote out a bad government. And now, they're trying to do it through the member's ballot, with a Four-Year Parliamentary Term Legislation Bill. The bill at least requires a referendum ...
A ballot for a single Member's Bill was held today, and the following bill was drawn: Public Works (Prohibition of Compulsory Acquisition of Māori Land) Amendment Bill (Hūhana Lyndon) The bill would prevent the government from stealing Māori land in breach of Te Tiriti o Waitangi. It ...
Simeon Brown, alongside Wayne Brown, is favouring a political figleaf now in exchange for loading up tens of millions in extra interest costs on Auckland ratepayers. Photo: Lynn GrievesonTL;DR: Ratings agency Standard & Poor’s is pushing back hard at suggestions from Local Government Minister Simeon Brown and Mayor Wayne Brown ...
Buzz from the Beehive One headline-grabber from the Beehive yesterday was the OECD’s advice that the government must bring the Budget deficit under control or face higher interest rates. Another was the announcement of a $1.9 billion “investment” in Corrections over the next four years. In the best interests of ...
Chris Trotter writes – Had Zheng He’s fleet sailed east, not west, in the early Fifteenth Century, how different our world would be. There is little reason to suppose that the sea-going junks of the Ming Dynasty, among the largest and most sophisticated sailing vessels ever constructed, would have failed ...
David Farrar writes – Two articles give a useful contrast in balance. Both seek to be neutral explainer articles. This one in the Herald on Social Investment covers the pros and cons nicely. It links to critical pieces and talks about aspects that failed and aspects that are more ...
The tikanga regulations will compel law students to be taught that a system which does not conform with the rule of law is nevertheless law which should be observed and applied…Gary Judd KC writes – I have made a complaint to Parliament’s Regulation ...
The future of Te Huia, the train between Hamilton and Auckland, has been getting a lot of attention recently as current funding for it is only in place till the end of June. The government initially agreed to a five year trial, through to April 2026, but that was subject ...
TL;DR: Hamas has just agreed to Israel’s ceasefire plan. Nelson hospital’s rebuild has been cut back to save money. The OECD suggests New Zealand break up network monopolies, including in electricity. PM Christopher Luxon’s news conference on a prison expansion announcement last night was his messiest yet.Here’s my top six ...
A homicide in Ponsonby, a manhunt with a killer on the run. The nation’s leader stands before a press conference reassuring a frightened nation that he’ll sort it out, he’ll keep them safe, he’ll build some new prison spaces.Sorry what? There’s a scary dude on the run with a gun ...
Hi,I know it’s been awhile since there’s been any Webworm merch — and today that all changes!Over the last four months, I’ve been working with New Zealand artist Jess Johnson to create a series of t-shirts, caps and stickers that are infused with Webworm DNA — and as of right ...
The OECD’s chief economist yesterday laid it on the line for the new Government: bring the deficit under control or face higher Reserve Bank interest rates for longer. And to bring the deficit under control, she meant not borrowing for tax cuts. But there was more. Without policy changes—introducing a ...
After a hiatus of over four months Selwyn Manning and I finally got it together to re-start the “A View from Afar” podcast series. We shall see how we go but aim to do 2 episodes per month if possible. … Continue reading → ...
In 2008, the UK Parliament passed the Climate Change Act 2008. The law established a system of targets, budgets, and plans, with inbuilt accountability mechanisms; the aim was to break the cycle of empty promises and replace it with actual progress towards emissions reduction. The law was passed with near-universal ...
Buzz from the Beehive Local Water Done Well – let’s be blunt – is a silly name, but the first big initiative to put it into practice has gone done well. This success is reflected in the headline on an RNZ report:District mayors welcome Auckland’s new water deal with ...
This is a re-post from Yale Climate ConnectionsA farmworker cleans the solar panels of a solar water pump in the village of Jagadhri, Haryana Country, India. (Photo credit: Prashanth Vishwanathan/ IWMI) Decisions made in India over the next few years will play a key role in global ...
Lindsay Mitchell writes – The Children’s Minister, Karen Chhour, intends to repeal Section 7AA from the Oranga Tamariki Act 1989 because it creates conflict between claimed Crown Treaty obligations and the child’s best interests. In her words, “Oranga Tamariki’s governing principles and its act should be colour ...
Geoffrey Miller writes – The gloves are off. That might seem to be the undertone of surprisingly tough talk from New Zealand’s foreign and trade ministers. Winston Peters, the foreign minister, may be facing legal action after making allegations about former Australian foreign minister Bob Carr on Radio New Zealand. ...
Brian Easton writes – This is about the time that the Treasury will be locking up its economic forecasts to be published in the 2024 Budget Economic and Fiscal Update (BEFU) on budget day, 30 May. I am not privy to what they will be (I will report on them ...
TL;DR:Winston Peters is reported to have won a budget increase for MFAT. David Seymour wanted his Ministry of Regulation to be three times bigger than the Productivity Commission. Simeon Brown is appointing a Crown Monitor to Watercare to protect the Claytons Crown Guarantee he had to give ratings agencies ...
The gloves are off. That might seem to be the undertone of surprisingly tough talk from New Zealand’s foreign and trade ministers. Winston Peters, the foreign minister, may be facing legal action after making allegations about former Australian foreign minister Bob Carr on Radio New Zealand. Carr had made highly ...
I could be a florist'Round the corner from Rye LaneI'll be giving daisies to craziesBut, baby, I'll wrap you up real safe Oh, I can give you flowers At the end of every dayFor the center of your table, a rainbowIn case you have people 'round to stay Depending on ...
TL;DR: The six key events to watch in Aotearoa-NZ’s political economy in the week to May 12 include:PM Christopher Luxon is scheduled to hold a post-Cabinet news conference at 4 pm today. Finance Minister Nicola Willis will give a pre-budget speech on Thursday.Parliament sits from Question Time at 2pm on ...
The price of the foreign affairs “reset” is now becoming apparent, with Defence set to get a funding boost in the Budget. Finance Minister Nicola Willis has confirmed that it will be one of the few votes, apart from Health and Education and possibly Police, which will get an increase ...
A listing of 26 news and opinion articles we found interesting and shared on social media during the past week: Sun, April 28, 2024 thru Sat, May 4, 2024. Story of the week "It’s straight out of Big Tobacco’s playbook. In fact, research by John Cook and his colleagues ...
Yesterday I received come lovely feedback following my Star Wars themed newsletter. A few people mentioned they’d enjoyed reading the personal part at the beginning.I often begin newsletters with some memories, or general thoughts, before commencing the main topic. This hopefully sets the mood and provides some context in which ...
April 30 was going to be the day we’d be calling Mum from London to wish her a happy birthday. Then it became the day we would be going to St. Paul's at Evensong to remember her. The aim of the cathedral builders was to find a way to make their ...
Rob MacCulloch writes – Can’t remember the last book by a Kiwi author you read? Think the NZ government should spend less on the arts in favor of helping the homeless? If so, as far as Newsroom is concerned, you probably deserve to be called a cultural ignoramus ...
Eric Crampton writes – Grudges are bad. Better to move on. But it can be fun to keep a couple of really trivial ones, so you’re not tempted to have other ones. For example, because of the rootkit fiasco of 2005, no Sony products in our household. ...
A new report warns an estimated third of the adult population have unmet need for health care.Photo: Lynn Grieveson / The KākāHere’s the six key things I learned about Aotaroa’s political economy this week around housing, climate and poverty:Politics - Three opinion polls confirmed support for PM Christopher Luxon ...
Today is May the fourth. Which was just a regular day when my mother took me to see the newly released Star Wars at the Odeon in Rotorua. The queue was right around the corner. Some years later this day became known as Star Wars Day, the date being a ...
Buzz from the Beehive Much more media attention is being paid to something Winston Peters said about former Australian Foreign Minister Bob Carr than to a speech he delivered to the New Zealand China Council. One word is missing from the speech: AUKUS. But AUKUS loomed large in his considerations ...
Is the economy in another long stagnation? If so, why?This is about the time that the Treasury will be locking up its economic forecasts to be published in the 2024 Budget Economic and Fiscal Update (BEFU) on budget day, 30 May. I am not privy to what they will be ...
The annual list of who's been bribing our politicians is out, and journalists will no doubt be poring over it to find the juiciest and dirtiest bribes. The government's fast-track invite list is likely to be a particular focus, and we already know of one company on the list which ...
In the weeks after the October 7 Hamas attacks on Southern Israel I wrote about the possible 2nd, 3rd and even 4th order effects of the conflict. These included new fronts being opened in the West Bank (with Hamas), Golan … Continue reading → ...
Peter Dunne writes – It is one of the oldest truisms that there is never a good time for MPs to get a pay rise. This week’s announcement of pay raises of around 2.8% backdated to last October could hardly have come at a worse time, with the ...
David Farrar writes – Newshub reports: Newshub can reveal a fresh allegation of intimidation against Green MP Julie-Anne Genter. Genter is subject to a disciplinary process for aggressively waving a book in the face of National Minister Matt Doocey in the House – but it’s not the first time ...
The Treasury has published a paper today on the global productivity slowdown and how it is playing out in New Zealand: The productivity slowdown: implications for the Treasury’s forecasts and projections. The Treasury Paper examines recent trends in productivity and the potential drivers of the slowdown. Productivity for the whole economy ...
Winston Peters’ comments about former Australian foreign minister look set to be an ongoing headache for both him and Luxon. Photo: Lynn Grieveson / The KākāTL;DR: The podcast above of the weekly ‘hoon’ webinar for subscribers features co-hosts and , along with regular guests on Gaza and ...
These puppet strings don't pull themselvesYou're thinking thoughts from someone elseHow much time do you think you have?Are you prepared for what comes next?The debating chamber can be a trying place for an opposition MP. What with the person in charge, the speaker, typically being an MP from the governing ...
The land around Lyme Regis, where Meryl Streep once stood, in a hood, on the Cobb, is falling into the sea.MerylThe land around Lyme Regis, around the Cobb that made it rich, has always been falling slowly but surely into the sea. Read more ...
Buzz from the Beehive Foreign Affairs Minister Winston Peters was bound to win headlines when he set out his thinking about AUKUS in his speech to the New Zealand Institute of International Affairs. The headlines became bigger when – during an interview on RNZ’s Morning Report today – he criticised ...
The Post reports on how the government is refusing to release its advice on its corrupt Muldoonist fast-track law, instead using the "soon to be publicly available" refusal ground to hide it until after select committee submissions on the bill have closed. Fast-track Minister Chris Bishop's excuse? “It's not ...
As pressure on it grows, the livestock industry’s approach to the transition to Net Zero is increasingly being compared to that of fossil fuel interests. Photo: Lynn Grieveson / Getty ImagesTL;DR: Here’s the top five news items of note in climate news for Aotearoa-NZ this week, and a discussion above ...
The New Zealand Herald reports – Stats NZ has offered a voluntary redundancy scheme to all of its workers as a way to give staff some control over their “future” amidst widespread job losses in the public sector. In an update to staff this morning, seen by the Herald, Statistics New Zealand ...
On Werewolf/Scoop, I usually do two long form political columns a week. From now on, there will be an extra column each week about music and movies. But first, some late-breaking political events:The rise in unemployment numbers for the March quarter was bigger than expected – and especially sharp ...
David Farrar writes – The Herald reports: TVNZ says it is dealing with about 50 formal complaints over its coverage of the latest 1News-Verian political poll, with some viewers – as well as the Prime Minister and a former senior Labour MP – critical of the tone of the 6pm report. ...
Muriel Newman writes – When Meridian Energy was seeking resource consents for a West Coast hydro dam proposal in 2010, local Maori “strenuously” objected, claiming their mana was inextricably linked to ‘their’ river and could be damaged. After receiving a financial payment from the company, however, the Ngai Tahu ...
Alwyn Poole writes – “An SEP,’ he said, ‘is something that we can’t see, or don’t see, or our brain doesn’t let us see, because we think that it’s somebody else’s problem. That’s what SEP means. Somebody Else’s Problem. The brain just edits it out, it’s like a ...
The Green Party is welcoming the announcement by the Minister Responsible for RMA Reform Chris Bishop to approve most of the Wellington City Council’s District Plan recommendations. ...
David Seymour has failed to get the sweeping cuts he wanted to the free and healthy school lunch programme, Labour education spokesperson Jan Tinetti said. ...
Hon Willie Jackson has been invited by the Oxford Union to debate the motion “This House Believes British Museums are not Very British’ on May 23rd. ...
Green Party MP Hūhana Lyndon says her Public Works (Prohibition of Compulsory Acquisition of Māori Land) Amendment Bill is an opportunity to right some past wrongs around the alienation of Māori land. ...
A senior, highly respected King’s Counsel with decades of experience in our law courts, Gary Judd KC, has filed a complaint about compulsory tikanga Māori studies for law students - highlighting the utter depths of absurdity this woke cultural madness has taken our society. The tikanga regulations will compel law ...
The Government needs to be clear with the people of the Nelson Marlborough region about the changes it is considering for the Nelson Hospital rebuild, Labour health spokesperson Ayesha Verrall said. ...
Ministers must front up about which projects it will push through under its Fast Track Approvals legislation, Labour environment spokesperson Rachel Brooking said today. ...
The Government is again adding to New Zealand’s growing unemployment, this time cutting jobs at the agencies responsible for urban development and growing much needed housing stock. ...
With Minister Karen Chhour indicating in the House today that she either doesn’t know or care about the frontline cuts she’s making to Oranga Tamariki, we risk seeing more and more of our children falling through the cracks. ...
The Labour Party is saddened to learn of the death of Sir Robert Martin, a globally renowned disability advocate who led the way for disability rights both in New Zealand and internationally. ...
Labour is calling for the Government to urgently rethink its coalition commitment to restart live animal exports, Labour animal welfare spokesperson Rachel Boyack said. ...
Today’s Financial Stability Report has once again highlighted that poverty and deep inequality are political choices - and this Government is choosing to make them worse. ...
The Green Party is calling on the Government to do more for our households in most need as unemployment rises and the cost of living crisis endures. ...
Unemployment is on the rise and it’s only going to get worse under this Government, Labour finance spokesperson Barbara Edmonds said. Stats NZ figures show the unemployment rate grew to 4.3 percent in the March quarter from 4 percent in the December quarter. “This is the second rise in unemployment ...
The New Zealand Labour Party welcomes the entering into force of the European Union and New Zealand free trade agreement. This agreement opens the door for a huge increase in trade opportunities with a market of 450 million people who are high value discerning consumers of New Zealand goods and ...
The National-led Government continues its fiscal jiggery pokery with its Pharmac announcement today, Labour Health spokesperson Ayesha Verrall says. “The government has increased Pharmac funding but conceded it will only make minimal increases in access to medicine”, said Ayesha Verrall “This is far from the bold promises made to fund ...
This afternoon’s interim Waitangi Tribunal report must be taken seriously as it affects our most vulnerable children, Labour children’s spokesperson Willow-Jean Prime. ...
Te Pāti Māori are demanding the New Zealand Government support an international independent investigation into mass graves that have been uncovered at two hospitals on the Gaza strip, following weeks of assault by Israeli troops. Among the 392 bodies that have been recovered, are children and elderly civilians. Many of ...
Our two-tiered system for veterans’ support is out of step with our closest partners, and all parties in Parliament should work together to fix it, Labour veterans’ affairs spokesperson Greg O’Connor said. ...
Stripping two Ministers of their portfolios just six months into the job shows Christopher Luxon’s management style is lacking, Labour Leader Chris Hipkins said. ...
Tonight’s court decision to overturn the summons of the Children’s Minister has enabled the Crown to continue making decisions about Māori without evidence, says Te Pāti Māori spokesperson for Children, Mariameno Kapa-Kingi. “The judicial system has this evening told the nation that this government can do whatever they want when ...
It appears Nicola Willis is about to pull the rug out from under the feet of local communities still dealing with the aftermath of last year’s severe weather, and local councils relying on funding to build back from these disasters. ...
The Government is making short-sighted changes to the Resource Management Act (RMA) that will take away environmental protection in favour of short-term profits, Labour’s environment spokesperson Rachel Brooking said today. ...
Labour welcomes the release of the report into the North Island weather events and looks forward to working with the Government to ensure that New Zealand is as prepared as it can be for the next natural disaster. ...
The Labour Party has called for the New Zealand Government to recognise Palestine, as a material step towards progressing the two-State solution needed to achieve a lasting peace in the region. ...
Some of our country’s most important work, stopping the sexual exploitation of children and violent extremism could go along with staff on the frontline at ports and airports. ...
The Government’s Fast Track Approvals Bill will give projects such as new coal mines a ‘get out of jail free’ card to wreak havoc on the environment, Labour Leader Chris Hipkins said today. ...
The government's decision to reintroduce Three Strikes is a destructive and ineffective piece of law-making that will only exacerbate an inherently biased and racist criminal justice system, said Te Pāti Māori Justice Spokesperson, Tākuta Ferris, today. During the time Three Strikes was in place in Aotearoa, Māori and Pasifika received ...
Cuts to frontline hospital staff are not only a broken election promise, it shows the reckless tax cuts have well and truly hit the frontline of the health system, says Labour Health spokesperson Ayesha Verrall. ...
The Green Party has joined the call for public submissions on the fast-track legislation to be extended after the Ombudsman forced the Government to release the list of organisations invited to apply just hours before submissions close. ...
New Zealand’s good work at reducing climate emissions for three years in a row will be undone by the National government’s lack of ambition and scrapping programmes that were making a difference, Labour Party climate spokesperson Megan Woods said today. ...
The Minister Responsible for RMA Reform, Chris Bishop, today released his decision on twenty recommendations referred to him by the Wellington City Council relating to its Intensification Planning Instrument, after the Council rejected those recommendations of the Independent Hearings Panel and made alternative recommendations. “Wellington notified its District Plan on ...
Rape Awareness Week (6-10 May) is an important opportunity to acknowledge the continued effort required by government and communities to ensure that all New Zealanders can live free from violence, say Ministers Karen Chhour and Louise Upston. “With 1 in 3 women and 1 in 8 men experiencing sexual violence ...
Associate Education Minister David Seymour has today announced that the Government will be delivering a more efficient Healthy School Lunches Programme, saving taxpayers approximately $107 million a year compared to how Labour funded it, by embracing innovation and commercial expertise. “We are delivering on our commitment to treat taxpayers’ money ...
New research on the impacts of extreme weather on coastal marine habitats in Tairāwhiti and Hawke’s Bay will help fishery managers plan for and respond to any future events, Oceans and Fisheries Minister Shane Jones says. A report released today on research by Niwa on behalf of Fisheries New Zealand ...
Deputy Prime Minister and Foreign Minister Winston Peters will lead a broad political delegation on a five-stop Pacific tour next week to strengthen New Zealand’s engagement with the region. The delegation will visit Solomon Islands, Papua New Guinea, Vanuatu, New Caledonia, and Tuvalu. “New Zealand has deep and ...
There has been a material decline in gas production according to figures released today by the Gas Industry Co. Figures released by the Gas Industry Company show that there was a 12.5 per cent reduction in gas production during 2023, and a 27.8 per cent reduction in gas production in the ...
Defence Minister Judith Collins tonight announced the recipients of the Minister of Defence Awards of Excellence for Industry, saying they all contribute to New Zealanders’ security and wellbeing. “Congratulations to this year’s recipients, whose innovative products and services play a critical role in the delivery of New Zealand’s defence capabilities, ...
Welcome to you all - it is a pleasure to be here this evening.I would like to start by thanking Greg Lowe, Chair of the New Zealand Defence Industry Advisory Council, for co-hosting this reception with me. This evening is about recognising businesses from across New Zealand and overseas who in ...
It is a pleasure to be speaking to you as the Minister for Digitising Government. I would like to thank Akolade for the invitation to address this Summit, and to acknowledge the great effort you are making to grow New Zealand’s digital future. Today, we stand at the cusp of ...
New Zealand is urging both Israel and Hamas to agree to an immediate ceasefire to avoid the further humanitarian catastrophe that military action in Rafah would unleash, Foreign Minister Winston Peters says. “The immense suffering in Gaza cannot be allowed to worsen further. Both sides have a responsibility to ...
A new online data dashboard released today as part of the Government’s school attendance action plan makes more timely daily attendance data available to the public and parents, says Associate Education Minister David Seymour. The interactive dashboard will be updated once a week to show a national average of how ...
Foreign Minister Winston Peters has announced Rosemary Banks will be New Zealand’s next Ambassador to the United States of America. “Our relationship with the United States is crucial for New Zealand in strategic, security and economic terms,” Mr Peters says. “New Zealand and the United States have a ...
The Government is considering creating a new tier of minerals permitting that will make it easier for hobby miners to prospect for gold. “New Zealand was built on gold, it’s in our DNA. Our gold deposits, particularly in regions such as Otago and the West Coast have always attracted fortune-hunters. ...
Minister for Trade Todd McClay today announced that New Zealand and the United Arab Emirates (UAE) will commence negotiations on a free trade agreement (FTA). Minister McClay met with his counterpart UAE Trade Minister Dr Thani bin Ahmed Al Zeyoudi in Dubai, where they announced the launch of negotiations on a ...
New Zealand Sign Language Week is an excellent opportunity for all Kiwis to give the language a go, Disabilities Issues Minister Louise Upston says. This week (May 6 to 12) is New Zealand Sign Language (NZSL) Week. The theme is “an Aotearoa where anyone can sign anywhere” and aims to ...
Six tertiary students have been selected to work on NASA projects in the US through a New Zealand Space Scholarship, Space Minister Judith Collins announced today. “This is a fantastic opportunity for these talented students. They will undertake internships at NASA’s Ames Research Center or its Jet Propulsion Laboratory (JPL), where ...
New Zealanders will be safer because of a $1.9 billion investment in more frontline Corrections officers, more support for offenders to turn away from crime, and more prison capacity, Corrections Minister Mark Mitchell says. “Our Government said we would crack down on crime. We promised to restore law and order, ...
The OECD’s latest report on New Zealand reinforces the importance of bringing Government spending under control, Finance Minister Nicola Willis says. The OECD conducts country surveys every two years to review its members’ economic policies. The 2024 New Zealand survey was presented in Wellington today by OECD Chief Economist Clare Lombardelli. ...
The Government has delivered on its election promise to provide a financially sustainable model for Auckland under its Local Water Done Well plan. The plan, which has been unanimously endorsed by Auckland Council’s Governing Body, will see Aucklanders avoid the previously projected 25.8 per cent water rates increases while retaining ...
Foreign Minister Winston Peters discussed the need for an immediate ceasefire in Gaza, and enhanced cooperation in the Pacific with German Foreign Minister Annalena Baerbock during her first official visit to New Zealand today. "New Zealand and Germany enjoy shared interests and values, including the rule of law, democracy, respect for the international system ...
The Minister Responsible for RMA Reform, Chris Bishop today released his decision on four recommendations referred to him by the Western Bay of Plenty District Council, opening the door to housing growth in the area. The Council’s Plan Change 92 allows more homes to be built in existing and new ...
Thank you, John McKinnon and the New Zealand China Council for the invitation to speak to you today. Thank you too, all members of the China Council. Your effort has played an essential role in helping to build, shape, and grow a balanced and resilient relationship between our two ...
The Government is modernising insurance law to better protect Kiwis and provide security in the event of a disaster, Commerce and Consumer Affairs Minister Andrew Bayly announced today. “These reforms are long overdue. New Zealand’s insurance law is complicated and dated, some of which is more than 100 years old. ...
The coalition Government is refreshing its approach to supporting pay equity claims as time-limited funding for the Pay Equity Taskforce comes to an end, Public Service Minister Nicola Willis says. “Three years ago, the then-government introduced changes to the Equal Pay Act to support pay equity bargaining. The changes were ...
Structured literacy will change the way New Zealand children learn to read - improving achievement and setting students up for success, Education Minister Erica Stanford says. “Being able to read and write is a fundamental life skill that too many young people are missing out on. Recent data shows that ...
Trade Minister Todd McClay says Canada’s refusal to comply in full with a CPTPP trade dispute ruling in our favour over dairy trade is cynical and New Zealand has no intention of backing down. Mr McClay said he has asked for urgent legal advice in respect of our ‘next move’ ...
The rights of our children and young people will be enhanced by changes the coalition Government will make to strengthen oversight of the Oranga Tamariki system, including restoring a single Children’s Commissioner. “The Government is committed to delivering better public services that care for our most at-risk young people and ...
The Government is making it easier for minor changes to be made to a building consent so building a home is easier and more affordable, Building and Construction Minister Chris Penk says. “The coalition Government is focused on making it easier and cheaper to build homes so we can ...
New Zealand lost a true legend when internationally renowned disability advocate Sir Robert Martin (KNZM) passed away at his home in Whanganui last night, Disabilities Issues Minister Louise Upston says. “Our Government’s thoughts are with his wife Lynda, family and community, those he has worked with, the disability community in ...
Good evening – Before discussing the challenges and opportunities facing New Zealand’s foreign policy, we’d like to first acknowledge the New Zealand Institute of International Affairs. You have contributed to debates about New Zealand foreign policy over a long period of time, and we thank you for hosting us. ...
From today, passengers travelling internationally from Auckland Airport will be able to keep laptops and liquids in their carry-on bags for security screening thanks to new technology, Transport Minister Simeon Brown says. “Creating a more efficient and seamless travel experience is important for holidaymakers and businesses, enabling faster movement through ...
People with an interest in the health of Northland’s marine ecosystems are invited to a public meeting to discuss how to deal with kina barrens, Oceans and Fisheries Minister Shane Jones says. Mr Jones will lead the discussion, which will take place on Friday, 10 May, at Awanui Hotel in ...
Kiwi exporters are $100 million better off today with the NZ EU FTA entering into force says Trade Minister Todd McClay. “This is all part of our plan to grow the economy. New Zealand's prosperity depends on international trade, making up 60 per cent of the country’s total economic activity. ...
There are heartening signs that the extractive sector is once again becoming an attractive prospect for investors and a source of economic prosperity for New Zealand, Resources Minister Shane Jones says. “The beginnings of a resurgence in extractive industries are apparent in media reports of the sector in the past ...
The return of the historic Ō-Rākau battle site to the descendants of those who fought there moved one step closer today with the first reading of Te Pire mō Ō-Rākau, Te Pae o Maumahara / The Ō-Rākau Remembrance Bill. The Bill will entrust the 9.7-hectare battle site, five kilometres west ...
Energy Minister Simeon Brown has announced 25 new high-speed EV charging hubs along key routes between major urban centres and outlined the Government’s plan to supercharge New Zealand’s EV infrastructure. The hubs will each have several chargers and be capable of charging at least four – and up to 10 ...
The coalition Government will not proceed with the previous Government’s plans to regulate residential property managers, Housing Minister Chris Bishop says. “I have written to the Chairperson of the Social Services and Community Committee to inform him that the Government does not intend to support the Residential Property Managers Bill ...
The Government has announced an independent review into the disability support system funded by the Ministry of Disabled People – Whaikaha. Disability Issues Minister Louise Upston says the review will look at what can be done to strengthen the long-term sustainability of Disability Support Services to provide disabled people and ...
Justice Minister Paul Goldsmith has attended the Universal Periodic Review in Geneva and outlined the Government’s plan to restore law and order. “Speaking to the United Nations Human Rights Council provided us with an opportunity to present New Zealand’s human rights progress, priorities, and challenges, while responding to issues and ...
The Government and Rotorua Lakes Council are committed to working closely together to end the use of contracted emergency housing motels in Rotorua. Associate Minister of Housing (Social Housing) Tama Potaka says the Government remains committed to ending the long-term use of contracted emergency housing motels in Rotorua by the ...
The Minister Responsible for GCSB and the Inspector-General of Intelligence and Security have been notified of this review, and have been provided a finalised Terms of Reference. ...
Source: The Conversation (Au and NZ) – By Minglu Chen, Senior Lecturer, Government and International Relations, University of Sydney Robert Way/Shutterstock As the past few years have illustrated so clearly, the Australia-China relationship is complicated. As such, it is crucial for Australians to develop a more nuanced understanding of ...
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We now face the issue of Hunt's relatives flying in from Oz and going into managed isolation and whether they will be allowed out.
Which at one level is easy – once there is a negative to the test. At another not so much because there are false negatives, and them infecting others at the funeral would be a new low.
What would reduce the risk would be if only Kiwis from Oz were on the plane and in the Rotorua hotel now. But if it was an onflight including those from South Asia and the UK less so.
In that regard, its about time to separate the Kiwis from Oz coming here from those in on-flights from other areas of higher risk.
There is no real reason why Kiwis in WA/SA/Queensland need to go into isolatiom at all and those from NSW/Victoria with no others in their home to go to self isolation (with phone tracking or bracelets).
Drink up, Donnie
https://twitter.com/pixelatedboat/status/1274534505185808386
So what? So he's framing Biden as China's candidate.
Why? Good/evil. The antique binary axis has ten times the moral authority of trad democracy (two millennia of moral hegemony versus two centuries).
Civilisation at stake thesis. Civil rights became a global scheme via UN adoption. Dragon mythos is ancient, but success on the geopolitical stage depends on the communist regime adhering to it in defiance of the civilised world.
Except now the chink electrogoons are targeting Oz, and ScoMo is trying real hard not to say so. He's authorised headlines about the cyber attacks, while carefully not specifying their source. Watch this space!!
NZ is studiously ignoring what is happening in Australia right now in the vain hope the contagion won't strike us. Well it has become a real issue there and we'd do well to start paying attention:
Here is an important point to keep in mind; the assault is a one way flow. The authoritarian states, primarily China and to a lesser degree Russia, are able to control their domestic internet. China in particular completely insulates it's own people from the West and tightly controls what they are allowed to see and say. By contrast the democratic West is almost completely open, and thus completely vulnerable.
Does anyone think asymmetry is not being exploited to our manifest disadvantage?
After the consequence of glasnost on the Soviet Union, China decided it was a weakness they would not have, but exploit in others.
Of course Russia under Putin, is on the same course – even adopting white race identity nationalism in both domestic politics and aslo as a way to connect to nationalists abroad – to take down the western multi-lateralist regime.
even adopting white race identity nationalism
Given the left created identity politics, it's hard to understand the outrage when others learn the lesson and use it for their own purposes. But it goes a long way to explaining my decade long objection here to the whole damned idea in the first place. Identity politics is nothing if not a perpetual motion grievance machine.
Still this is a tangent to the point; the authoritarian states have seen this fatal weakness and are more than willing to use to intensify the natural diversity of the west into hopelessly bickering camps. So far it looks like it's working a treat don't you think?
Personally I have no problem with all the people not white race men becoming activist for those of their group becoming equal citizens in a democracy. Sure there is contention over some of it, as there was over mitigating any injustice. This process has been going on for centuries now.
The taking offence part is more novel, there its more the 1790's France, post 1917 Russia side to it. A form of PC vigilantism and group peer pressure.
As to who gains by it, it's a distraction from growing economic inequality, facing up to the need for monetary reform to sustain nation state capability and global collective action on planetary health. Well those who want to rebuild the fuedal order around capital and outside management of the underclass (high tech panopticon society regime – think China but Area 51 God rule style).
The major weakeness of the West, as to Russia and China, is not our own internal political divisions, but the greed within capitalism. That applies whether in its nationalist Trumpian form, or those who take access to China's market on their terms for the sake of short term shareholder profit.
damn, all those people who are not white, not male, not heterosexual and good 'christians' that want equal rights, equal opportunity, and equal safety.
Damn, those darn gosh dangly doo liberals. Don't they know their place.
Oh to be living in the good old times of 1850. Before all that jazz about voting rights, rights to bodily autonomy, and distaste of racially and sexually / gendered jokes.
Nicely put Sabine 🙂 Love this bit…. darn gosh dangly doo
Don't diss pre 1850. The French Revolution of 1789-1799 "Liberté, Egalité, Fraternité" established the notion of universal human rights and led to the abolition of slaves throughout the British Empire (1833). Which also meant that the Treaty of Waitangi (1840) was founded on similar principles.
It just took the USA a while to catch up (emancipation/civil war in 1863)
Personally I have no problem with all the people not white race men becoming activist for those of their group becoming equal citizens in a democracy.
Now let's imagine a nice little democratic nation that isn't white dominated. One where say Latino, Blacks or Asians run the show. And ask yourself if these places might not have considerable 'systemic bias' against minorities of other ethnic groups. It logically follows from your argument these groups would want to demand to be 'equal citizens'.
What if one of these minorities happened to be white, are they to be excluded from being equal citizens?
And then take this thought experiment one step further and try and imagine the outcome of the small white minority in China demanding to become 'equal citizens'.
Given the history of China is the expansion of the Han and assimilation of outer regions into their hegemony … and Russian security was premised on expansion of the Rus/Slav European across the continent to the Pacific … oh or colonial west aquiring American from sea to sea (including Mexican Texas and California) Aotearoa land to farm, there could be a brotherly self-recognition. Or maybe we are too alike, and have good reason not to trust each other. It being all so Darwinian.
The west sees itself as building a civilisation, post enlightenment. A new Greco-Roman age realising its period of colonialism/economic imperialism/global dominance. And China sees it as something to emulate to supplant western global leadership and Russia sees this as reducing its own economic and political isolation.
Ultimately making our own society more just does not change the global dynamics of power in play.
Or maybe we are too alike, and have good reason not to trust each other. It being all so Darwinian.
That really gets very close to the question I've been trying to address here for years.
Here is a thought going through my head this morning; unity does not mean uniformity. What it really means is the capacity to achieve common purposes across large groups of diverse identity. (Yes identity is real, it's making it the centre of power games is what I object to.)
It's that capacity, across the universality of all humankind which is what interests me. When we achieve it globally (and I think this is inevitable) we will unleash our true potential as a spiritual beings, we will astonish ourselves.
Otherwise yes, a thoughtful comment SPC.
the elevation of human rights and recognition of the individual as a sovereign, spiritual being, is an Enlightenment ethic peculiar to Europe, not shared by other cultures, and certainly not by tyrannical rulers.
identity politics undermines that. western liberalism is in crisis because the capitalists (or other political forces) have weaponised division against the people.
(cribbed from Peterson/Paglia)
That moment when someone is so close……
When did 'the left' invent identity politics then?
"Given the left created identity politics"
No they didn't. Identity politics has been around in one form or another for a very long time but primarily saw it's birth after the industrial revolution and capitalism began separating people from the core sources of their identity.
I read your other comment regarding "truth decay" and want to address both comments together.
Firstly, what that article is referring to is called FUD – fear, uncertainty and doubt. Yes, it's a commonly used disinformation tactic used in sales, advertising, marketing, media, politics, religion and online in posts/social media; "a strategy to influence perception by disseminating negative and dubious or false information and a manifestation of the appeal to fear."
Not everyone who uses it knows they're using it however because it naturally exploits our biases so is seldom recognised as a strategy. It is very effective, especially in religion, politics and in social media.
It's also not new and has been around since the 1600s where it was a deliberate religious strategy to keep lay people dependent on priests for religious interpretation. This is an important fact to remember because the initial utilisation of a FUD-based strategy was by religious authoritative figures to control the masses. In that article you linked you'll find this quote which is a suggested 'remedy' to disinformation.
“Relying on clear and authoritative sources is one very important approach.”
And who can we trust these days with such a task? In whose hands would you be willing to place 'truth'?
To be clear, you are right to be concerned about disinformation. Jordan Peterson himself has dissolve the boundaries of truth down to a metaphor. More concerning is that he places metaphorical truth over and above scientific truth. Mind you, how else is he going to convince legions of lost boys to continue drinking the Kool-aid unless he can find some way of destroying the science getting in the way of his religion?
But, back to my point. My main contention is that you seem to think that there was some magical time in history where we had 'truth', where we were critical thinkers who smelled BS a mile away, where we weren't being manipulated by people in power. I'm guessing from your other comments that your come-back will be 'well, no but now the left have broken society into fragments which leaves us vulnerable'.
I'd agree that we're divided and vulnerable but disagree that you can place responsibility for that in the hands of the left.
What I noticed about your two comments is how you use the FUD article as a FUD strategy of your own to further your anti-left narrative. You've skipped right over the fact that the article calls for censorship via the authoritative control of information and instead presented it as a fallacious appeal to fear.
"When fear, not based on evidence or reason, is being used as the primary motivator to get others to accept an idea, proposition, or conclusion."
Identity politics is not new and wasn't started by the left although I'll agree they utilise it. But so does the right. The fracturing of society and flourishing of identity politics is very much the result of massive inequality which pitted the white male against the 'other' – not because white males engineered it to be this way but simply because they were the ones pried from their homes and sent off to work in order to feed the capitalist machine and it is this machine (or rather the breaking of it with govt bail-outs) that has caused growing inequality and the fragmented society we have now. To be clear, the white male is no more responsible for this than any other person or group of people.
So when you point at the left you're falsely diagnosing the fever as though it's the disease and not a symptom of it but worse than that you're perpetrating a FUD campaign of your own to drive home your point.
While identity is extremely ancient and has always been core to politics, "Identity Politics" in the modern context is a specific term with a specific meaning, clearly associated with far left, post-modernist thought. The ruse of re-defining the term when it gets used in a way you don't like is a pretty but transparent dodge.
My main contention is that you seem to think that there was some magical time in history where we had 'truth', where we were critical thinkers who smelled BS a mile away, where we weren't being manipulated by people in power.
One of Peterson's arguments is that while post-modernism has a sound technical point that there are an infinite number of ways to interpret any text, he also posits that the purpose of metaphor, mythology and religion is to show us the relatively few interpretations which are demonstrably successful in real life.
And by success he means to reduce unnecessary suffering to the extent possible. He's quite anti-Utopian, which is why the left hate him so.
And for what it's worth the search for truth is something each one of us must independently undertake for ourselves.
Anyhow cutting through all of the rest, as far as I am concerned, the identity politics game, whoever plays it, is a bad one with only bad outcomes. Call that whatever you like. And if you'd been around here for the 14 years I have, you'd know that I've been copping shit for this position long before Peterson arrived on the scene.
"The ruse of re-defining the term when it gets used in a way you don't like is a pretty but transparent dodge."
That's a pretty bad faith position to take not to mention a strawman. It is easier to attack an argument when you can fit it in a box right? Consider the meme; it is an altogether modern term yet it has existed for ages, been redefined to better describe what it is and what it represents. Christianity, too, has been born again (a few too many times for my liking). So the fact that identity politics as an ideological term was coined at one point in time does not mean it hasn’t existed prior to that time and I'm not alone in my thinking on this. Francis Fukuyama says the politics of identity have been present in many countries at many times throughout history – sometimes grounded in religion, other times class. To deny identity politics it's heritage to make it easier to cut up is disingenuous.
"One of Peterson's arguments is that while post-modernism has a sound technical point that there are an infinite number of ways to interpret any text, he also posits that the purpose of metaphor, mythology and religion is to show us the relatively few interpretations which are demonstrably successful in real life."
Nothing in my comment is related to, in support of, or against postmodernism. My comment about truth is that JP believes something can be scientifically true and metaphorically false and so becomes categorically false. Furthermore, JP fails to acknowledge the role of environment; time and place in determining success. What worked in the 1800s or even the 1950s most likely will not give us success today. The guy is a nut-job with a saviour complex.
I do find it a little amusing how you've redefined your truth statement though. Whatever happened to "truth decay" and the desperate need to preserve 'it'?
"the identity politics game, whoever plays it, is a bad one with only bad outcomes. Call that whatever you like"
Well, I won't call it a game that's for sure. It's serious stuff that deserves serious consideration and discussion. I've learned so much of my own ignorance because of it. I literally cringe when I think of the shit I was spouting in my younger days. And whats more, I'm continuing to learn. I remember reading a quote that was particularly profound to me even though I'm an atheist.
“Enlightenment is a destructive process. It has nothing to do with becoming better or being happier. Enlightenment is the crumbling away of untruth. It’s seeing through the facade of pretense. It’s the complete eradication of everything we imagined to be true.”― Adyashanti
And I don't think identity politics is, in and of itself, bad in the same way that a fever isn't bad – it's an indication of serious imbalance and once you correct the problem of massive inequality you'll find it settles down on it's own. Arguments for ending the ideology itself are far more harmful because they conceal and naturalise the dominance of the right, and in so doing remove the rationale for debate.
I think this is something you're overlooking, Red. Identity politics and the grievance claims are empty chairs reserved for those who have been disenfranchised. My biggest fear is not that the ideological right will win, it's that we will all lose. It was never about white men vs the world per se, it was always and only about the haves and the have nots. As this economic cannibalistic carnival continues to grow so does the economic disparity.
"And if you'd been around here for the 14 years I have, you'd know that I've been copping shit for this position long before Peterson arrived on the scene."
I have no sympathy for you, Red. You've chosen to stand where you stand. You must like the climate.
Good thread, thanks Maggie and Red.
Part of what I am reading from Red is the shift from us to I.
Society, in my lifetime, used to have many groups, institutions etc to which we belonged- sports clubs, church, community groups (Scouting, Lions) etc.
There was an aspect of service, working and belonging to something bigger than us. That has dwindled over the last few decades.
The rise of the impotance of the individual, helped along by billions of marketing dollars has changed our thinking.
Century of the Self is a fascinating look at the rise of consumerism (amongst other ideas).
Rushed, but I have to go or I will be late for work…
The most powerful words ever spoken to me, a short few words in reply to a clumsy question about our purpose in life, were these:
"We are a people of duty".
At the time I really didn't appreciate them as I should have.
PS. Yes I really enjoy Adam Curtis. Much of what the left regards as the adamantine evils of capitalism are perhaps better thought of as the unaware blindness of materialism. Just a thought.
Thanks Gsays.
Yes, I've been thinking about this a lot lately. What I find fascinating is that, to me, it appears to be so paradoxical… but I'm still straightening out some thought noodles on this so will leave it there for now. I'm going to watch that doco now – looks interesting.
it was always and only about the haves and the have nots.
Thank you, a nice response. Your last section I entirely agree with.
Political truth was always malleable, it always shifted as the ground moved under us. But in order to be useful it has to be anchored in at least some empirical, objective facts.
The article I quoted, asks the question, what happens when political truth becomes un-moored from the facts, facts that no-one can even agree on?
Can you expand on your first sentence, please? I don't want to misconstrue what you're trying to say.
I don't know if I can go so far as to say there was ever a time of political truth, that anyone had it. It seems to me that once societies got bigger and more complex the need for structure and control also created exploitable power positions.
I don't think you can say that for political truth to be useful it needs to be grounded in empirical objective facts (even though I believe it ought to be) – well, historically anyway. Religion did a great job of controlling the masses for a while but required deceiving people, keeping them ignorant.
You have to consider the inherent difficulties of empirically studying human behaviour. It's not like we can grow a whole bunch of lab babies and raise them in certain environments to determine outcomes. It's in this fact that people such as yourself have levered their position yet, and ironically so, you're quite willing to flex away from empiricism when it comes to beliefs you're fond of. So why not extend the same flexibility to the left's ideology?
When shown massive amounts of data that prove systemic racism you dig your toes into research results like "no bias in cop shootings of black men" as proof of 'no racial bias'. You can't zoom in and zoom out to frame things to your liking and claim objectivity.
Take, for example, this comment of yours:
In this "thought experiment" you say that it's feasible that there would be systemic bias against a white minority (and I'm not saying I agree or disagree with you). You basically flip the racial divide to make a point about China but fail to grasp that you've described the situation Blacks and other minorities actually experience now.
How can you 'see it' here but not when we're talking about BLM? Would the Chinese not simply say to you all the same arguments you've posited because in the above scenario, they are the 'haves' and you as the white minority is the 'have nots'?
But I don't want to derail this conversation or make it about something it isn't so please understand I'm just offering that as an example.
My point is that the knowledge we have has always been subjected to a certain amount of bias due to a lack of diversity given that historically it's been men who've determined the course of knowledge to the exclusion of women and minorities. Consider that such great minds as Aristotle and Darwin both expressed unchecked bias in their work so the question must be if they made such mistakes how did their attitudes toward and beliefs about women shape the knowledge we have today? How did that bias limit or deviate to course of knowledge? What of other bias from other thinkers?
Whilst you can say well empiricism fixes that it doesn't really. It does help in some areas, like chemistry, physics and maths, but as we're discovering more and more there are so many nuanced ways in which bias can pervert outcomes – right from determining who we do research on, how we structure our research and how we interpret the results because much of our current research relies on old knowledge held as objectively true which may not be.
Consider that religion, culture and science have all been shaped by subjective beliefs first and foremost and whilst I hold science in the highest regard I don't think it's perfect or infallible – just the best tool we have and tool most frequently wielded in the hands of powerful white men.
For these reasons I don't think you can claim to be the one moored to objectivity whilst the left are 'adrift'.
Yeah, my heart absolutely bleeds for that cadre of former Boarding School Girls & Boys – emanating from some of the most privileged Establishment families – who dominate the Woke movement both in NZ & throughout the Anglosphere. They truly are The Great Oppressed.
Really quite emotionally moving to see an empty chair reserved for the disenfranchised of Remmers as they rise out of their subaltern slumber (in between cocktails) to Speak Truth to Power.
"He's quite anti-Utopian, which is why the left hate him so."
I think this is pretty dismissive and incorrect. JP is not anti-utopian at all – I just think he has a different idea of what constitutes a highly desirable or high quality society.
This attitude of dismissal, of scoffing at the silly left with their inability to be reasonable (which is prevalent throughout your comments) is the same attitude men had of women for a very long time. It proved foolhardy.
Because men didn't consider women to be anything other than pretty little women, children in adult bodies, they never considered that women had the potential to be just like them in the best and worst ways possible. (and no, I'm not saying there are no differences between men and women – we're obviously far better at breastfeeding!).
Not wishing to derail your fascinating dialogue, but it prompted me to read up on JP (having previously ignored him out of ignorance). Rule 11 ("Do not bother children when they are skateboarding") suggests he doesn't get the relevance of context. Such as if they are doing on the road. Or at meal time. Perhaps his chapter consists of a sequence of caveats to finesse such practicalities??
I do agree with you about identity politics being around forever (part of social psychodynamics). Warriors identified each other by their helmets etc in the classical era, Roman senators by their togas, in the sense of tribe or class identity. But RL using it in an academic sense is also correct of course. Both/and logic applies.
Ethos is relevant, eh? If you share it, you identify with others who do. Thus I don't share that of the woke – yet I do share some of their values. How one uses values (to divide, or to include) seems the crux (praxis).
Re: JP. There's a running joke about JP where if you ask him a question his answer will invariably start with "Well, it depends on what you mean by X". He's a weasel speaker whose ambiguous language means you can't really pin him down on anything he says. If you pointed out his statement lacks the nuance of context he's say well it depends what you mean by context then launch into some ethereal waffle featuring religious symbology, evil feminine chaos dragons and lobsters.
I've read all his books, watched his videos. It was painful but necessary.
I do understand Red's position and where he's planted his flag in terms of identity politics. I am compelled by my inner brat to shake off all attempts to label and/or contain my beliefs to ideological boxes. I know that makes me sound like some uber edgelord but I'm not – in truth I'm about as edgy as a wet sandwich. My reluctance is more about the fact that common narratives tend to 'fit you up' – if you ascribe to one popular belief you're assumed to hold all the other beliefs commonly associated with that belief as well. I'm still figuring out what it is I actually believe and don't want to be fenced in. So, whilst I reference identity politics I do so conceptually rather than politically if that makes sense.
This is interesting. You're gonna have to tell me what your definition of 'woke' is because as a politicised label it's quite loaded and I don't want to infer meaning.
I don't think people intentionally divide. I think perhaps people attempt to refine or define and in so doing can have divisiveness as a consequence but I think even that is a simplistic description of what's happening. I'm seeing a lot of paradoxical connections that I'm not sure what to make of. It's either that I'm misconstruing connections or there really is this whole other side that isn't divisive at all but rather about loss of democratic choices (something SPC said got me thinking). If I sound waffley it's because I'm not 'there' yet with the idea so I need to let it ferment a bit longer.
Perhaps you could expand on your point a bit more, let me see inside that head of yours? We've not engaged a lot so it's difficult for me to know what you're about to give your words context.
tell me what your definition of 'woke' is because as a politicised label it's quite loaded and I don't want to infer meaning
I don't define it – I've acquired a hazy sense of what it means. Politically-correct herding seems to be the mass psychology involved. I also see group narcissism there – a presumption that, having arrived at a consensus around social values, all those who haven't done so are wrong. So we get that projection of moral supremacy from them collectively.
Mature folks watching are liable to see this exhibition of syndromes as juvenile or puerile. Character is developmental, and it is unreasonable to expect anyone to figure stuff out simultaneously with others. We all have different social niches to form our values, we learn from different experiences and at different rates. It's a wonder we ever share culture at all!
So broad-mindedness & tolerance of diversity is opposed by woke narrow-minded intolerant preference for monoculture. Greens believe in biodiversity. Woke Greens are frauds!
Identity politics polarises. The future, for humanity, lies in the commons. Identifying common ground is real hard for a partisan. So possessed by group narcissism and the compulsive requirement of conformity to separatism, the woke activist will always shy away from the necessity of acquiring humanity. Yet doing so is a survival skill. Thus the woke will not survive as a social movement.
Thanks for that, Dennis.
I understand your frustration with the current social movement. It can be incredibly destabilising to see established norms broken down and labelled as 'bad' or 'wrong'. Having our behaviour and beliefs pointed out in a critical way often feels like a personal attack because we're emotionally invested in them. This isn't a bad thing; it's actually necessary and the result of our successful biological evolution. As a social species being able to cooperate and have shared values is essential to survival as you rightly pointed out.
I think it's important to consider that other people are under the very same evolutionary influences, are subjected to the same evolved psychological tendencies. I'd like to make two key points here.
Firstly, the minds of young people – those aged 12-25 are in a state of developmental flux. Puberty and its associated hormones triggers a shift in how the brain perceives barriers and boundaries – this is important for two main reasons.
Firstly, it helps break the familial bond. As a child grows up their primary source of learning comes from the family unit which creates strong emotional bonds but in order to develop a healthy sexual appreciation for the opposite sex they must effectively break the bonded information from its emotional ties. So we see younger people start to value peer group sources for learning over familial groups. The added benefit of doing so reduces the chances of repeating 'stupid parent' mistakes by broadening his or her perspectives of "normal" and "acceptable" behaviour and beliefs.
Secondly, this dissolution of boundaries exposes the adolescent brain to greater influence from their peers with the end goal of learning how to say no to peer influence. Basically, the teen is forced into an environment full of temptation in order to develop the strength to resist it. This is essential in order to avoid falling into 'stupid group' behaviour at a time when they need to be stable and disciplined in order to be a good parent.
Because of these influences I think it's important we don't assume there are fundamental flaws in what they're doing but keep their behaviour in context. What's more, we can learn from their apparent destruction of social norms by considering the validity of things they're exposing.
Social norms are vital to group cohesion and success yet they must also be fit-for-purpose and given our environment changes so rapidly (especially since the industrial revolution) we must frequently test our norms to see if they're still relevant. I, for one, am grateful for these challenges because without them we might still be selling slaves and imprisoning women suspected of having STDs.
The other point I'd like to make is in regard to how we perceive the actions of others. Biases, of which we have over 200, are often alluded to as flaws in thinking or are pointed out as a means to discredit the perspectives of others. Whilst I acknowledge that I'm pointing out bias in your perspective I'm doing so with the caveat that I'm also biased as is everyone, always.
Wikipedia starts its page on cognitive bias with this statement: "Cognitive biases are systematic patterns of deviation from norm[al] or rational judgement" This statement suggests that rationality is the norm. However, if you go to the linked reference material you find the authors actually say cognitive biases are not deviations but rather the normal way we process information.
"The conclusion that many biases are not the result of constraints or mysterious irrationalities also speaks to the ongoing debate about human rationality. Our perspective suggests that biases often are not design flaws, but design features." (source:The Handbook of Evolutionary Psychology by David M. Buss, pg 725)
So everyone is subjected to the same biased thinking and we are all burdened with the responsibility of employing critical thinking when making judgments. https://youtu.be/AK0GYBTNx5Q
I think this is really important because if you consider your perspective from a rational POV you can see that what they're doing and pointing out has been done right throughout history – the challenging and breaking down of old social norms in order to test for relevance. Whilst you might say they're focusing on differences rather than commonalities they do so to break down the criteria for sorting, not to destroy sorting.
The old way was just as separatist in that men and women were relegated to strict and separate social norms, racial segregation kept whites and blacks apart as fundamentally different and religious separation kept Christians apart from "heathens". What's more, they're challenging the old sorting criteria in order to find better more reasonable ways of ensuring equal access to resources, fairer application of laws and legal protection and a more refined and nuanced understanding of what it is to be human first and foremost.
In this way, you can look at their behaviour as a sort of ethical spring cleaning and like spring cleaning, you often have to make a mess to clean one up.
Now, I'm not saying I agree with all of the outcomes or actions – certainly this 'cancel culture' is problematic but I argue that it isn't representative of the entire left nor is it the demands for firing or silencing opposition for a vocal minority that is problematic but how we're responding to it.
Why are companies and institutions bowing to public pressure so quickly and without proper due process? Could it be that in an age where being profitable is so highly dependent on popularity that we've exorcised critical thinking as dissension's bastard? Perhaps then this 'mess' we have is the consequence of the capitalist tendency to monetise everything which has left society vulnerable to the demands of an increasingly vocal & irrational leftist faction who are now no more representative of the political left than neo-Nazism is of the political right.
Thanks for that thoughtful response Maggie. Nothing there I'd dispute. I suspected it was a peer-group driven movement (primarily, with some traction of solidarity amongst those who went pc during the '90s).
And I'm aware of the emotional rooting that bias emerges from, having had to transcend various of mine in the past! I'm willing to tolerate the woke but may have to express irritation from time to time if the phenomenon persists – I suspect it is already waning.
And yes, conflating it with the left isn't sensible, except it regard to the critique that the left tend to be privileged (middle-class) nowadays whereas in the 19th century they were identified as lower-class (wrongly, I've learnt from reading about the activists of that era). Idealism in regard to the better world envisioned is widely shared, so any critique of the woke can't focus on that. It must focus on behaviour.
I appreciate the rational discussion Dennis. All to often I find myself caught up in conversations where I'm constantly having to say "I didn't say/mean that" and I admit my tone is often the cause of such misunderstandings. I'm not very good at predicting how others will take me as I tend to be blunt AF.
I've had to wrestle with my own bias and was a pretty radical feminist some time back. Whilst I still support feminism I've become far more moderate and have broadened my perspective by leaning in to MRA conversations and listening to their POV. This helped me understand that most people want the same things but tend to speak from their pain points in order to express those desires.
And I'll continue to wrestle my biases which flair up like a bad rash every now and again. Conversations like this one make that easier to do so cheers 🙂
JP is not anti-utopian at all
Well I tend to take people at their word when they say so.
Here.
Here.
and here.
When it comes to understanding true motivations of a person I never take a person at their word. Like, ever. Truth is found in between their words, in what they hide, not what they put in the shop window.
Everything about JP says to me that this guy is desperate to preserve an ideal culture in which he feels he has value. And that's not a criticism of him. It's something we all do to certain degrees.
We all write narratives in which we are winners.* Even if we cast ourselves as victims we do so to make a claim that redeems us from blame, we become survivors (and thus mythological heroes of our own history) by pointing out our victimisation. Those who’ve ‘succeeded’ in societal terms do the very same. What mightier hero is there than one who’s escaped their chains and slain sloth to rise above the mediocre.
The right point at the left and label them hysterical whilst comforted by their own “rational” narrative but if you read the majority of right leaning editorials and opinion pieces the “hysteria” is no less present. It just walks along to the monotonous nod of a well-scripted narrative; they just produce better arguments (but not truer ones). The right are the "lawyers" of political discourse – finders of loopholes, committed to winning, not truth.
*Note: I feel the need to clarify that these narratives don't invalidate any suffering or victimisation a person has suffered in their lifetime. This isn't about real life experiences and whether they're justifiably painful but rather the narrative construct – the fictionalised reality we cast for ourselves in our minds.
So I provide three links where JP explains in detail one thing, and you assure us you know that he must really mean something else.
No wonder you didn't understand a word he said.
"us" Odd choice of pronoun there, Red. Is it a priest or psychiatrist you need because I'm pretty sure you're not speaking for a collective.
You, know, sometimes I just lurk and read the conversations on here. You learn so much about people by watching how they interact with others, when they get pissy, over what and with whom. It paints an interesting picture of the inner emotional and psychological world of the speaker. 🙂
Don't conflate the irrational, uber-relativist Intersectional Cult with the broader Left movement it's trying to hi-jack.
Gross generalisation that I'd expect from the more ideologically insular, historically-ignorant & dogmatic extremes of the Feminist Movement. Doesn't tally with the familial relationships of my forbears at all.
The irony being that the Woke of both sexes do tend toward – not so much children – as petulant teenagers in adult bodies. Narcissistic, demanding & controlling. Presumably a corollary of significant affluence & massive over-indulgence when growing up.
Perhaps a better education system for all that really emphasises critical thinking is the best solution.
the assault is a one way flow.
Oh come on ! Do you think we don't have outright propaganda directed at us via the Murdoch press for instance !!!
An example being the way the Murdoch press harps on about anti semitism whenever anyone crticises Israel ,while Murdoch himself has oil interests in the Golan Heights he'd be able to exploit if the GH were annexed.
https://www.irishcentral.com/opinion/others/irish-troops-peace-line-trump
The way Syria is being represented in the Murdoch press is heavily influenced by Murdoch's interests .Just one example .We're not above being lied to by our media Iraq another
Well that is the exact point I linked to and quoted; propaganda is nothing new, pretty much everyone does it. But where do we draw the line?
Are we going to allow the authoritarian states … who's only goal is maintaining and expanding the power of it's leaders for life …. to openly undermine the ideals of the democratic west?
Just to put this into perspective. Of the 200 odd nations on earth, barely 30 truly count as developed and decent places to live, countries where the freedoms, rights and rule of law we take for granted are commonplace. Although partly as a consequence of these characteristics these nations are also very successful and prosperous, it's a mistake to imagine they are also invulnerable to internal damage.
Who counts them Red?
I wouldn’t personally be counting the US at the moment
Are these countries undermining democratic ideals or pointing to the deficits of those countries ?
Any democratic ideals in the UK are tarnished by the unbelievable treatment of Assange, and the media’s abdication of any responsibility towards free journalism
Who counts them Red?
There is of course no binary distinction here; all the nations can be placed on a spectrum from best to worst. And then there are multiple dimensions of desirability we could use. But one way of measuring it was done by a recent Gallop poll (I've linked to it before) that showed some 750m people, 10% of the human race, would migrate right now if they could.
And almost all want to go to the Anglo/Euro nations of the developed world. That's called voting with your feet.
I'd certainly agree the US is by no means the best of this group, it was toppled from that position decades ago. And this is a deficit they certainly need to address; it will take a decade of turmoil to show results.
But let's not look any closer are why those nations are wealthy and desirable. It must be democracy most of them have had for less than a hundred years or so, can't possibly have anything to do with the three or four hundred years before that. Or anything they did while being so "democratic".
But let's not look any closer are why those nations are wealthy and desirable.
It's a very good question; one that I believe Jared Diamond's Guns, Germs and Steel gave a very good answer to. If you really want to understand modern geopolitics this book is the essential starting point. (It ain't perfect, nor complete, but it remains a solid foundation.)
Empire, exploitation, slavery and the oppression of minorities is nothing new. It probably dates back to at least when modern humans probably eradicated Neanderthals in Europe, and it has to be fully acknowledged that the intersection of this ancient paradigm, with the industrialised technologies of 17 and 18th century Europe, took it to a wholly new, intense and deplorable level.
But that colonial era came to a functional end at the close of WW2. Colonialism is no longer the sole or even best explanation for their ongoing success and desirability, at least compared to much of the rest of the world.
no, shh, it's totes just "democracy", right? Nothing to do with the geopolitical dominance the colonial powers maintained post ww2 (replacing "colonialism" with "hegemony") or geopolitical proxy wars and destabilisation campaigns.
Let's just leave it that "democracy" is the primary reason the colonial powers are still largely dominant (and desirable migration destinations).
One vote feeds a whole family..
The left likes to imagine the US got rich on the back of it's global security dominance in the post WW2 era.
Apart from the fact that it was the US manufacturing dominance that was a very large reason why the Allies won WW2 before they set up their security hegemon, it's also wrong on the data. In reality the US actually trades relatively little with the rest of the world as a percentage of it's GDP.
Indeed from the US perspective, if the rest of the world outside North and Latin America were to sink beneath the waves tomorrow, they'd barely notice, much less give a shit. Many would breath a deep sigh of relief and go back to being prosperous thank you very much.
Being world trade's default currency was no advantage at all.
Being world trade's default currency was no advantage at all.
An advantage that cuts both ways. If say Argentinians want to trade with Egyptian's … neither country has any use for each other's currency, so having one dominant hard currency that everyone could use was a tremendous benefit to everyone.
And providing a global security environment, freedom of trade and shipping for all nations, (even their enemies) came at no cost either?
I'm not arguing the post WW2 US led trade order was the ideal arrangement, or that it was without flaws. But it was almost certainly better than anything that came before. A fact that we are about to discover quite brutally as it disintegrates before our eyes over the next few years.
Look, stop the distractions, it must be the world's lack of democracy.
No need to bring up things like that multinationals don't necessarily patriate all their overseas income derived from CIA-backed dictatorships (although the value is reflected in their share prices), and the US leases for military establishments were routinely cheap because they were acquired from those dictatorships or countries they had just defeated (Rammstein, Subic, Guantanamo, Yokota), or the outright colonial possessions for their allies (in the case of Diego Garcia).
And then we have no need at all to mention the CIA practise of destabilising any government (no matter how democratic) that showed any effort to lower inequality in its population, because "communism".
You put your finger on it: the rest of the world is less desirable to live in only for the reason that it doesn't have (or only recently was gifted via B52) democracy. Any other explanation must be false (otherwise you might have to accept reality).
So, how does ~5% of the world's population use ~25% of the world's resources?
https://www.americangeosciences.org/critical-issues/faq/which-mineral-commodities-used-united-states-need-be-imported
https://www.pnas.org/content/115/16/4111
https://www.census.gov/prod/2/gen/96statab/natresor.pdf
Seems to me that the US is totally dependent upon trade.
Its called going to where the jobs are, not necessarily because of democratic ideals .Why are the jobs there ..Empire and wealth accumulation were got not from democracy ,but military advantage and plunder going back generations .It's why Hondurans to this day go to the States
And a large proportion will be going where there is a common language..English…taught pretty well universally .Why?
Colonialism and Empire mean English became the language of trade.and therefore taught .
Empire and wealth accumulation were got not from democracy ,but military advantage and plunder going back generations
In that case why are Spain and Portugal, or the core nations of any of the historic empires not centres of world power to this day? The reason is simple and obvious, the passing of time has eroded away any advantage. The last empire of the type you are thinking of ended with WW2
It's why Hondurans to this day go to the States
Again the problem of having only one tool in the box. Honduras will always be poorer than the USA for a whole range of geographic reasons that have nothing to do politics. Similar to why Greenland will never be a wealthy nation. Geography matters.
English…taught pretty well universally
Well yes. The need for a universal language in a globalised world is so urgent and necessary that we defaulted to the one most at hand. It could have easily been Spanish or French but for a few accidents of history.
Esperanto was once considered a popular alternative for just this purpose. In an ideal world we might eventually arrive at a universal language acceptable to all.
Spain and Portugal lost the bulk of their colonial empires in the 19th century. The US and UK built the bulk of their empires in the 19th century. The Spanish and portuguese lost favoured trade relations with many of their former colonial powers. UK has the commonwealth, and the thirteen colonies gained much of North America in the same time period that Spain lost hers, and US only lost some of their richer dominions in the mid-late 20C (e.g. Cuba, Philipines) (and both expanded their systems of trade, until particular unpleasantries recently entered office in their respective capitals).
Additionally, modern imperialists exercise a more distant style of control that colonialism, but it is still imperial control. Look at Gough Whitlam or Allende if you want to argue about that. It's the dominance of the Roman Republic, not the dominion of the "United Kingdom" (yes, the roman republic differed from the empire because the roman empire had an actual emperor, but this is geopolitical terminology not classical studies).
But even so, I wonder how many ships get tied up at portuguese or spanish docks that were paid for by their own Colstons. I doubt that no advantages remain from their own days of empire.
Additionally, modern imperialists exercise a more distant style of control that colonialism, but it is still imperial control.
Again your reflexive bias against anything American means nuance becomes impossible. Just slap the word 'imperial' on it and job done.
The US hegemon is actually quite different from the British Empire that proceeded it. There are for a start no real colonies of any significance. Certainly there are military bases and a few small island nations, but absolutely nothing compared to the scale of the British.
Secondly, the British model (and all others prior to it) compelled almost all trade to be directed to the centre, for the benefit of the centre. And they navy necessary to defend this trade, protected imperial trade and no-one elses. The American model has been quite the opposite in this respect, all nations are able with relatively few constraints to trade with almost all others. And remarkably enough the US Navy provided the 'freedom of navigation' for everyone to do this at no cost.
Even when as I point out the USA actually trades remarkably little with the wider world. Imports are only 15% of GDP and at least half of this is within NAFTA. ie Canada and Mexico. (Incidentally Mexico is now their biggest trade partner, not China.)
Throw in energy independence, and the USA has comparatively little need to trade with the wider world, beyond a few specialised raw materials they can easily manage to source if necessary. This is a key point that was overlooked by everyone, the USA hegemon was never about making the US wealthy in the old imperial 'suck all the resources in to the centre' model. The unique geography of the US made them so natively wealthy that it was never necessary.
The purpose of the hegemon was to defeat the Soviets in the Cold War. The Americans knew they did not want to fight the Russians on the ground, so they essentially bribed up a global alliance which said, "we will let you trade with anyone, protect your trade, provide the finance, get you out of poverty, get rich even, but you have to be on our side against the Soviets".
And so long as you played by their rules the Americans generally left you alone. With some exceptions of course, but for the most part they used the least force necessary to ensure everyone stuck to the bargain.
Am I defending this US model as ideal? Of course not, everyone is aware of the mistakes and disasters along the way. But the crucial point is that compared to anything that came before it, the Americans, almost accidentally, created something the world has never seen before. It took us in the direction of the ideal, of a truly federalised world of equal nations. And for all of it's shortcomings the US trade order has delivered an astonishing modest prosperity for billions …. for the first time in human history fully half the human race is middle class by local standards. (That's quite an achievement for something so half-arsed, imagine if we did it properly.)
I realise the far left hates this narrative, but if we are serious about the universal elimination of poverty it is deeply dishonest to discount it.
I wonder how many ships get tied up at portuguese or spanish docks that were paid for by their own Colstons.
The economic life of most fixed assets is around 50 – 80 years. So no, any economic advantage anyone gained from slavery is long gone.
And if you want to argue for some other less tangible advantage gained from slavery somehow passed down the generations, keep in mind that the briefest of overviews tells us that until the Industrial Revolution ended it, slavery in some form or another was ubiquitous. Where do you want to draw the line? Only when white people did it?
Actually, I wasn't just thinking of the yanks. As soon as limpet mines and assault rifles made revolutionaries near-peer adversaries for anyone with boots on the ground, the imperial model du jour moved back towards client states rather that outright occupation.That's why the yanks transitioned from occupying the Philippines until 1941 to merely having client dictators throughout most of the Cold War.
But aren't we lucky that the yanks only dominated clients to stop the soviets, and were in no way continuing their imperial expansion from before WW2. I mean, they found another excuse to keep the hegemony going after the cold war, too, so there's that.
You're so full of shit that the boots you lick so frequently must have been wading through it.
You're so full of shit that the boots you lick so frequently must have been wading through it.
What exactly do you think you are doing?
losing patience with someone whose blinkers cause them to blatantly misrepresent history.
But tell us again how the yanks aren't an imperial power. It'll fascinate folks from Puerto Rico to Hawaii, the long way around.
But tell us again how the yanks aren't an imperial power. It'll fascinate folks from Puerto Rico to Hawaii, the long way around.
Maybe you got confused when I said above:
"Certainly there are military bases and a few small island nations, but absolutely nothing compared to the scale of the British."
Absolutely every claim I've made I'm willing to back up in extensive detail. But I'm not wasting the effort on someone who can't even read the most elementary points without getting lost and losing patience.
Vietnam was a small island nation or a few bases?
Korea?
The Philippines? Client regimes like Argentina, Greece, Iran, Iraq, and every other nation that received billions in military aid and advice on torturing political opponents?
Seriously – you believe that the post-ww2 US foreign policy consisted of a few islands and military bases (which would have been similar to any number of global outposts of the British Empire, even if that was the limit of similarity)?
Red, a case study of how Honduran wealth and the ability for peasants to survive in their own land was stripped by the US and their banana companies https://theconversation.com/how-us-policy-in-honduras-set-the-stage-for-todays-migration-65935
Yup, as I said above, the global US trade order was not without it's failures. I've never argued it was a perfect or ideal system; just better than anything that came before it.
The problem for Latin America, Honduras, Nicuargua and Cuba in particular, is that early century US business interests essentially undertook a proto-colonial foray into the region. A similar parallel can be found with say the British East India Company in India several hundred years earlier. But at the same time no US Federal govt was ever interested in going the next step of turning them into full territorial colonies.
This has meant the unfortunate peoples of these countries got the worst of both worlds, all the merchantile exploitation with none of the stable governance.
Then of course there was the Cold War, and we too easily forget the intensity of that period. The US repeatedly overreacted to perceived communist/socialist threats and footholds in their hemisphere. Their hugely advantageous security position was their big strategic advantage over the Soviets, and they were not going to relinquish it lightly.
Put these two realities together and yes Latin America is the zone where the US global trade order functioned badly. That is a legitimate objection, yet in many ways the contrast with how events unfolded elsewhere in the world where these factors did not apply … is instructive.
Also easily overlooked is that the USA itself is founded as an exercise in anti-colonialism, the great break-away from the British Empire, and this has always formed a large element of their foreign policy ever since. The fact that there are 200 odd independent nations in the world now, and no great imperiums of old, is largely due to the US imposing their own alternative reality on the ground.
What happens when the US fully stops imposing that reality over the next decade is the urgent question we should be thinking about.
True:
Apparently, even allowing people to chat with the West is now frowned upon by the Chinese authorities.
I'd hope not but there's going to be someone out there with the belief that, no matter what China does, allowing permanent residence with voting is all good and they simply won't believe that China will use this as a way to attack us.
In making your comment about Australia being targeted by a foreign nation's cyber goons, you seem to have channelled the language of an earlier time, when that nation ran a white population policy.
Of that earlier time pre Asian students (the first here may have been Chinese Malaysians under a Commonwealth programem back in the 70's when Malaysia began a Malay first into their universities policy) and changes to our own immigration policy (1986 or so).
Of course you may have been going for chink in the Oz cyber security armour, or noting how political campaigns of the Bannon type are nationalist in nature and returning us back to the past.
Or all of the above simultaneously. Literary references have ever been a minefield of controversy, eh? A standard method for ensuring that readers never die of boredom, even. And postmodernism has the upside of providing an ever so thick layer of icing on that cake. Readers can indulge their knee-jerk subjective reactions to their heart's content. An immensely satisfying recipe.
Is deliberate use of ethnic slurs wise, in praxis? Maybe it just slipped out/up?
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chink
Seems unlikely, but not impossible that it was your intention to cause offence.
I do hope the dancing cossacks bogeyman mentality doesn’t get a firmer foothold in NZ – lately ‘Eyes on China’ has been promoting ‘its concerns.
http://eyesonchina.org
Nah, just habitual slang use from way back. No intention to traumatise. If the moderator gets freaked out, happy to see it corrected to Chinese or communist or both! The idea that folks get traumatised by slang usage is so wacky that it never enters my head. 🙄 And I will now investigate your link thanks…
Well, that was a waste of time. Some org that only wants to recruit facebook users. Terminally-shallow brainwashed army has been done many times previously, why bother??
Why bother indeed, Dennis – you have spotted a chink in their thesis.
You resort to language like "freaked out" or "traumatised". So it's somebody else's fault, the familiar tactic of the non-apology.
The word "sorry" is a lot quicker to type. Try it.
Like the N word, then..
Just a sly little fishing expedition.
Covering your butt?
Literary references should probably be put in italics to make the writer's stance a little clearer
Literary references should probably refer to literature. Maybe that's expecting too much?
Speaking of Bannon, have you seen this?
https://youtu.be/P7eC5kHHXoc
No I hadn't. I try not to spend too long online so probably miss lots of interesting stuff. That plan has clearly got significant traction: https://www.foxbusiness.com/lifestyle/what-is-the-new-federal-state-of-china
But how significant? No evidence that any component of the US foreign policy establishment has adopted it as yet. The Council for Foreign Relations would be the one to watch for that. Could be a next Bilderberger conference topic… https://bilderbergmeetings.org/index.html
Interesting. The CCP is in a much weaker position than it likes to project. All the internal repression is a projection from weakness not strength.
The India/Australia military pact is news to me.
So Bannon's still full of shit, good to know, good to know.
Except now the chink electrogoons are targeting Oz,
What the hell Dennis!!
I haven't heard the word chink since we were a bunch of ignorant primary schoolers
Yes Francesca. Well out of order. Moderator should delete or at least Dennis withdraw the comment
agreed
Yes, been so long for me i had to think about it.
Agree with Francesca and the others.
I think the time has come for the Prime Minister to seriously consider ceasing her weekly interview with Mike Hosking. This morning's performance was a litany of disrespect, misogyny, dishonesty and rudeness to the point of verbal abuse. He effectively called her a liar.
It is all very well maintaining a remarkable level of equilibrium in the face of such belittling attacks, but he is slowly but surely painting Jacinda as a PM out of her depth. It is part of the overall National Party attack strategy of course and their media puppets like Hosking know exactly the role they are to play within that strategy.
She has every excuse to bypass him with a pandemic in progress as well as leading the country out of the economic recession in its wake.
https://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/news/article.cfm?c_id=1&objectid=12341670
I loved the bit where Ardern left him defending essentially his position which was "I don't get it".
Hosking: That doesn't mean anything.
Ardern: I have made my point – you continue to make yours.
Nah the hosk would scream like a baby if she didn't attend like the presumptuous born to lecture everyone twat he is.
Ardern gets to be classy while rantyboy vents his spleen. Pure theatre for red neck radio rantland.
So what's happening is a battle for the soul of the Republican Party. Recall that George Will resigned from the party when it selected the huckster as candidate. Principled rightists may be a minority, but they've long been at the heart of the US political establishment. Ever tried to do a count of right-wing US think-tanks?? I once did and encountered so many I hadn't known about that I became mildly depressed.
Bolton as would-be dragonslayer. Trump as paper tiger. What to do? Last week Colin Powell went public, declaring he will vote for Biden. Other influential Republicans, similarly disaffected, are more likely to stay home than vote for Trump or his China stooge opponent.
Speaking of Pompeo, Lou Dobbs was fuming with him the other day.
https://youtu.be/47TRbbM6Otg
Red storm rising seems somewhat melodramatic for a framing headline, but I guess media have to raise consciousness, and the contrast between Trumpian rhetoric and action follow-through has to be examined.
The concern expressed by Banks impressed me via his moderate, level, yet empathic tone. I hadn't seen Dobbs since he was fronting the money segment for CNN way back, but he's matured into less of a moron than he was.
Four breaches of Taiwan air-space in nine days is clearly a sustained attempt at forceful messaging. Banks told us Pompeo's meeting with the Chinese hierarchy in Hawaii was at China's request. Thus a two-pronged strategy by them.
China's breaches of Taiwan air-space are just part of China's growing aggression raising global concern.
The up and coming US elections raises the question who will stand up to China if Trump fails to win?
Which may well be the primary question in their election. I can imagine zillions deciding to vote for Trump while holding their nose, if he puts that question into their heads in the final week or two of the campaign.
Indeed, Dennis.
Furthermore, it is a question many around the world are asking while thinking what will it mean for them/us living in a China dominated world?
a China dominated world
Those paranoid folks anticipating such a future need reassurance. The future is way more likely to be multipolar at the level of geopolitics.
The US foreign policy establishment is huge. If Biden wins and attempts to wimp out on his responsibilities to them, they will find a way to pull his plug. Expect him to die in office in that future (natural causes, due to stress, most likely). His VP, a black woman, will have been already primed on how to present as authoritative and persuasive. Velvet glove.
Who's that?
Susan ( the russians did it ) Rice.
https://twitter.com/aaronjmate/status/1267185493176877057
Ta. Not been paying much attention.
If you look around you'll find the paranoia is well justified. It has long been touted China is the model many of the global elite subscribe too. Hence, many of them helped China implement it while allowing it to become a growing global threat.
If Bannon the liar is to be believed, which he isn't.
Anne, in some respects Hosking is turning people off by his extreme interviewing. I know several people who have lately commented they have been disgusted by him. I have never heard them previously make any comment.
I don’t know what editorial policy is in place for media to be balanced.
However, no wonder people so admire Jacinda for her stoic putting up with him. He is filled with hate and bitterness. It would not be so bad if he put the opposition through the same barrage. What a vile man.
hosking, is a bitter, angry has been, desperate for attention.
Have been impressed lately with both Jack Tame and Ryan Bridges, either of them would be fantastic as an adjudicator for the leaders debates.
That's because they are both fanboi's of JA with a big chip on their leftwing shoulder
Balance doesn't exist in mediaworks / radio works empire. It's agenda driven, always has been.
Editorial policy about being balanced? The balance they're interested in is whether the books balance.
Last week a banner headline had it of a Mike Hosking interview, Hosking v Whomever. The whomever was the particular politician he interviewed that day.
When interviews are to be sporting fixtures and about winners and losers we need to get real and see them and the media presenting them for what they are.
We get the glib expressions about 'holding politicians to account.' We get those like Hosking and Peter Williams seeming to think they are doing God's work. It is a travesty that it has got to the stage that politicians have to appear in regular time slots on radio and tv. Surely they should be accessible and answer question but now people like Hosking has them over a barrel. Not doing so has them pilloried, and slammed for not fronting.
If during the time of pandemic Beehive pressers Ardern had said to Hosking she wasn't available to him how would he have performed? I can imagine him being one who slammed her for doing those sessions. If she'd said, "My availability is through that session, you're welcome to attend and ask questions," how would he have treated?
Of course Hosking should not chair any TV leaders sessions for the election. He is not a journalist, he is an opinion giver who has continually poured scorn on Ardern. He has an agenda.
Our glorious ex leader Mr Key refused to appear on RadioNZ for most of his first term, and few were too concerned, because they were tuned to ZB or the Edge where he did appear, to share his “shower urinating stories”.
Which is a round about way of saying the PM needs to be where people are. Figure out a better method of slapping down Maserati Mike perhaps rather than banning the ripped jean tosser.
Boris is being machiavellian: using leftists to eliminate wokeism. Are wokesters really such a deserving threat? I doubt it. Ordinary folk think they're a joke.
Spiked: "we cover current affairs from a radical, democratic, pro-freedom and humanist perspective." https://www.spiked-online.com/about-spiked/
Leftist believers in free speech were everywhere when I was young. Good to know a bastion remains in the UK. I wonder if they use a castle & moat?
Political culture wars as mass entertainment is a looming trend, obviously, so we can expect things to get even more Alice In Wonderland for quite a while yet…
BOYCOT ZB BOYCOT HERALD until they remove hoskins
why stop then?
fair point! but got to give them something to aim for
edit
Back to the future – some thoughts about climate change results written in 2015 – what we can look forward to – Covid-19 is part of the problems we have to adjust to. The anomic-atomic business world wished for 'disruption' as being good for business. They have got that, so what do they want to do with it?
I thought this was thoughtful about 1-2 metre level of sea rise expected this century: http://hot-topic.co.nz/the-encroaching-sea-new-nz-sea-level-rise-maps/
Bob Bingham says: April 13, 2015 at 4:38 pm
The danger [from] one metre is mostly economic in that so much infrastructure will be lost that it will cripple the economy and also that of most countries around the world. My blog points to some of the city losses in NZ but a lot of Florida disappears, a huge amount of farmland in the UK and of course Holland.
The biggest worry is the displacement of hundreds of millions of people which will cause civil strife as families are displaced and will cross borders looking for a safe place to live. Worrying about the occasional flood is the least of your worries when you are sharing your property with twenty refugees and the economy is bankrupt.
Also – http://www.climateoutcome.kiwi.nz/
Covid-19:
9 million cases globally*. The most recent million took just 7 days. The previous million took 8 days. The million before that took 9 days.
(*reported by countries – some more honest than others)
Yes. This idea that COVID is over just because most of us are a bit bored with it will be news to the virus.
Thrives on ennui.
This story says so much about National's scare campaign on quarantine. Their MPs (Kaye, Woodhouse) have sided with a small number of well-off residents at the Stamford Plaza in Auckland, and against the hotel staff who could lose their jobs as a consequence.
Herald report here
It's the same as Todd McClay in Rotorua, who is up in arms about the local hotels being used. Meanwhile National do want the hotels used for quarantine in Queenstown. They are all over the place.
It sounded like McLazy's whinge was about lack of training for hotel staff. Not sure how valid that is.
Lisa Owen gave Kaye an easy ride on Checkpoint. Didn't even raise the charge of aiding and abetting nimbyism for the political advantage of claiming that things are 'chaotic'.
Are we surprised that the residents of Stamford Plaza being advised by Woodhouse got the story wrong? This lead to the transfer of detainees to Rotorua instead which then was aired by Woodhouse as he claims, being so wrong.
https://www.nzherald.co.nz/business/news/article.cfm?c_id=3&objectid=12341855
Almost as if we need a profession whose job it is to take what panicked people say and check it out before passing it on. Used to have a name for that..
It’s normal for appartments like this to have covenants on their titles restricting the residents ability to object to anything the hotel does in their normal operations. The Hotel is rather pissed off and is threatening legal action against the residents.
https://www.rnz.co.nz/national/programmes/checkpoint/audio/2018751732/kaye-confronts-stamford-hotel-over-legal-action-threat
This could get a bit messy for the residents, and anyone who has been advising them to kick up
https://twitter.com/Anthony_Wiggle/status/1274839548271267841
The NSW Premier has just advised against all non-essential travel from the NSW to Victoria.
https://www.smh.com.au/national/coronavirus-updates-live-cases-worldwide-almost-at-nine-million-australian-death-toll-stands-at-102-20200622-p554t7.html
What happens in the states, we copy eventually. This is from a few years ago, on US community policing practises.
Very clear definite Press conference from Jacinda and Woods on now. Well done over the essentials.
https://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/news/article.cfm?c_id=1&objectid=12341923
After Tulsa, now Jacksonville. Less a dogwhistle, more of a human whistle:
https://www.thedailybeast.com/trumps-convention-speech-in-jacksonville-coincides-with-anniversary-of-kkk-orchestrated-ax-handle-saturday
Kia Ora
The Am Show.
I think it's is correct to charge people who go into quarantine in Aotearoa.
People don't like being stuck in the 12 hours a day treadmill just to stay afloat in Aotearoa.
That's Global Warming.
That's is good Ethiopia planting billions of trees.
Conserving is the best way forward for Aotearoa all resources should be used wisely.
Ka kite Ano
Eco Maori
Kia Ora
Newshub.
It will be cold in Te Waka A Maui.
That's is good NCEA credits for learning about personal finances for students one of the most important subjects for one's prospeary.
Ka kite Ano.
Kia Ora
Te Ao Maori News.
It would be awesome to see more Tangata whenua owning horticultural enterprises like Back in the day.
That will be great when Kapa Haka resumes.
It is good to see that times have changed so it is no longer acceptable to mispronounce Maori names.
That Te reo is like waiata to my ears.
Ka kite Ano.
Kia Ora
The Am Show.
If you're not using The 21 century communication devices to market your goods or service you will not be reaching the highest heights of your busines.
That's is cool the bonsai small forest being planted around Europe trees do much more than just sequester carbon.
Electric cars are improving all the time in time they will be cheaper than gas guzzlers.
Ka kite Ano.
Kia Ora
Newshub.
Times are changing.
That's awesome the fishing bans to protect our Maui and Hector's dolphins.
The lost of Glacier Brewsters ice is a big problem Global Warming 50 to 100 years is not that long and most Glaciers will be gone
Ka kite Ano.
Kia Ora
Te Ao Maori Marama.
Ka pai to Iwi investing in Whare it is a great investment to secure Te Mokopuna futures.
It would be good to have statue and Carving telling Te tangata Whenua stories around Aotearoa.
Awsome A Maori based education game that educates about our environment. That's the future Internet.
Te puia opening again is good.
Ka kite Ano
Kia Ora
The Am Show.
A Dry July sounds good alcohol causes so many negative effects its not funny.
Ka kite Ano.