Open mike 22/11/2022

Written By: - Date published: 6:00 am, November 22nd, 2022 - 82 comments
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82 comments on “Open mike 22/11/2022 ”

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  1. Anker 1
    22 November 2022 at 9:14 am

    https://www.dailymail.co.uk/health/article-11438917/The-genderbread-person-NHS-start-sticking-unscientific-posters-up.html

    An NHS trust in Wales, UK is considering posting the genderbread person poster up at the Trust. Experts decry it as “unscientific nonsense”.

    • Molly 1.1
      22 November 2022 at 9:33 am

      The institutional stupidity continues without checking it seems. Apart from the hypocritical dismantling of women to specific organs or functions from those who scream about others having "genital obsessions", we have the familiar "chestfeeding" inclusion:

      This distinction makes it very clear that language is being changed at the behest of people who dictate according to feelings. Both women and men have breasts. Babies are fed from the breast – not the chest.
      Don't even get me started on the throwaway advice regarding the effects of hormones on the baby.

      Let alone the supported use of drugs to create a form of discharge for men so they indulge their wants, instead of nourishing a newborn child.

      • Anker 1.1.1
        22 November 2022 at 9:48 am

        Where is it from Molly?

      • Sabine 1.1.2
        22 November 2022 at 10:28 am

        Anything about transwomen being fed a cocktail of chemicals to induce 'lactation' and chestfeeding?

        • Molly 1.1.2.1
          22 November 2022 at 12:13 pm

          No, it appears they leave that up to the specialist breastfeeding services and organisations:

          https://lactationnetwork.com/blog/breastfeeding-faq-for-trans-and-non-binary-parents/

          Can I breastfeed if I was assigned male at birth?
          Yes, you can. You don’t have to have ovaries or a uterus to breastfeed. The hormones responsible for milk production (prolactin) and milk ejection (oxytocin) are released from the pituitary gland at the base of both the male and female brain. Some trans women and non-binary parents have a full milk supply. We recommend connecting with your healthcare provider about the best path forward considering your body and health. You can read a case study of induced lactation in a trans woman here.

          https://www.laleche.org.uk/support-transgender-non-binary-parents/

          Trans women can use a protocol similar to adoptive and other non-gestational mothers and stimulate their milk supply: it is called the Newman-Goldfarb protocol.

          Breastfeeding used to be promoted as an optimal choice for the baby.

          Now, it's a choice for any adult so inclined.

      • Sabine 1.1.3
        22 November 2022 at 10:36 am

        Scotland is currently introducing SPAth – inspired by Wpath and of course is trying to get 'non gendered healthcare ' to be a thing. Cause we are all the same and the only reason Men have never birthed anything is because they were to busy and occupied with other things, otherwise they would all have birthed their own children. Totally.

        • Molly 1.1.3.1
          22 November 2022 at 12:17 pm

          Yes, it is only recently I became aware that due to indoctrination by social constructs, neither my partner nor I thought to share the role of gestator and child bearer.

          Such a stunning, brave new world.

  2. aj 2
    22 November 2022 at 9:22 am

    Woman says ED nurse handed her card with minister's details

    https://www.rnz.co.nz/national/programmes/morningreport/audio/2018868039/woman-says-ed-nurse-handed-her-card-with-minister-s-details

    A Wellington woman is speaking out about her shock at the state of the hospital's emergency department when she was there earlier this month.

    She says a nurse handed her the Health Minister's contacts so she could tell him what she'd seen.

    The woman took her teenage daughter to the ED with pneumonia and says she saw people taking up every available space.

    Many of them vulnerable and facing long waits. The woman has asked not to be identified to protect her daughter's privacy.

    About a minute into this report I was wondering who it was: Nicola Willis, Erica Stanford, Brooke van Velden, Louise Upston, or an offspring of Michelle Boag. Classic hit piece anyway.

    • Sabine 2.1
      22 November 2022 at 10:33 am

      Yeah, right because it is the first time that long waiting times are an issue because a person was fearful for their offspring.

      Never mind that we had a 4 year old die of tonsilitis gone wrong and the lack of medical care.
      That child did not even die 4 weeks ago, but i guess that is already ancient history.

      Healthcare in NZ currently is just fucked. Fucked beyond believe. And no, i don't give a fuck about John Key, no more then we allowed people to blame Helen Clark for the fuckery that was the John Key Government at the time. This mess is bipartisan, and people die.

  3. Anker 3
    22 November 2022 at 9:37 am

    "about a minute into this report I was wondering who it was: Nicola Willis, Erica Standford". et

    Have you not be following about the Health Workforce crisis aj? I post regularly about it here. And almost everyday the media are covering this.

    My own experience in ED in June and my relatives experience more recently was the same variation on a theme of the women in the article.

    When I was there in June on a Monday morning, it was like a war zone. Patients two deep in the hall way. Paramedics having difficulty wheeling in sick patients as the wards were so full. Long, long wait (the wait times in ED are up) and we have a desperate shortage of nurses. I will find some links to confirm what I am saying and post

    • weka 3.1
      22 November 2022 at 9:51 am

      hey Anker, when you’re not using the Reply button, can you please put something at the start of your comment so show what you are responding to? eg aj at 9.22am, then the quote. Or aj at comment 2

      (likewise with your subsequent reply to your own comment).

      If people reply to aj using the reply button, your comment will drop down the page, sometimes quite a long way, and then it's hard to know what is about.

      If you need tech support with using the Reply on whatever device you are on, please ask.

      • Anker 3.1.1
        22 November 2022 at 10:14 am

        Sure will do. Once I had posted the first comment, I couldn't post the link when editing it didn't work for some reason

    • aj 3.2
      22 November 2022 at 11:07 am

      Yes I'm well aware of the crisis and have had grandchildren involved in the long waits. I'm not saying this is manufactured, I'm just saying it's another day with a very well constructed critical article that sounded like an opposition press ambush/release, with absolutely no background to why we are in this position. A little balance at the end from Little.

      • Anker 3.2.1
        22 November 2022 at 11:54 am

        I find Ian Powell the former head of Salaried and Medical Specialists a good balanced read on this stuff. He posts on The Daily Blog.

        He recounts how he told David Clark (former Min of Health) five years ago, that there were three problems with health. The healthwork force shortage, the health workforce shortage and the health work force shortage.

        Labour were warned

    • DB Brown 3.3
      22 November 2022 at 12:22 pm

      Best I share my recent experience seeing as everyone else seems to think the trauma was the ED not the wound.

      I cut myself recently with a serrated saw – very nasty, light duties for a month. Within minutes arriving at ED a temp patch up had been done. Within a few hours I'd been processed, including initial exam, temp dressing, second opinion examination regarding if tendons were severed, then the stitches and dressing, paperwork for ACC, instructions for me, prescriptions, note for doctor… AMAZING.

      Amazing service. And everyone was lovely. Yes, a student nurse stitched me up, but only after getting the double check. Very Professional. Hugely grateful.

      • Anker 3.3.1
        22 November 2022 at 12:34 pm

        Glad for you DB. How the health system should work and shows what excellent work our health workforce does.

        I take it you do not use your own outstanding experience to dismiss or minimize that there is a significant workforce shortage and staff feel burnt out and unappreciated?

        • aj 3.3.1.1
          22 November 2022 at 12:58 pm

          From the patient's perspective the medical system looks ok if you don't turn up when everyone else has. ED is a nightmare once capacity is reached. Workforce shortages are highlighted by peak periods. How much of current shortages are exacerbated by staff sickness I wonder? (covid in particular).

          What capacity should ED's have to cope beyond historical peak periods? Should staff numbers be such to have the ability to cope with 'average' numbers over a weekend, or should they roster on enough people to cover say 50% more patients? Which would be a waste of resources on many days. I don't see any simple solution to this, and it's not possible to ramp up trained staff overnight. As Anker suggests this has been a long time in the making.

          I have nothing but respect for the people who have worked tirelessly in the health sector in the last few years.

        • DB Brown 3.3.1.2
          22 November 2022 at 1:11 pm

          I've felt burnt out and unappreciated in a number of roles that's not something new or unique to health services. To fix said problems whining about Labour would do absolutely nothing. It's employers, union busters, unscrupulous bosses and shoddy laws that empower them.

          As for worker shortages, you want to put that on the government too? Lazy, petty politicking.

          • Anker 3.3.1.2.1
            22 November 2022 at 1:56 pm

            DB @ 3.3..1.2. I don't understand what you mean by "its employers, union busters, unscrupulous bosses an shoddy laws that empower them"

            I have no power to fix such problems. You can call it whining if you like but that is a perojorative term. I post a lot of articles on T S about the health workforce crisis.

            The govt were told five years ago there was a health work force shortage, but I have yet to see a plan to address that (feel free to produce Labour's plan if you know of one).

            Labour are in Govt and Little is Minister. Given this they are responsible for the health system.

            "Lazy. (I am not sure how you think it is lazy of me to post frequently, usually from articles about Dr's nurses etc saying things are in crisis. What would be an example of covering this issue that isn't lazy.

            "petty" I don't think this issue is petty at all. People not getting timely access to health care, is about as serious as it gets).

            "Politicking " This is a political website, or am I missing something here.

            This is another example of someone not engaging with the arguemnt. If you think the health systems doing fine (and maybe you do after your recent experience) well and good.

          • Shanreagh 3.3.1.2.2
            22 November 2022 at 5:34 pm

            The ED problems still have the influx of people seeking care for items that could be dealt with by a GP.

            You have to enrol, and depending on your financial status or the age of the people wanting treatment you may have to pay. Far easier to front up at the ED.

            I often wonder if they had a GP clinic running in parallel, ie in the same building as the ED if this would make a difference. The cost is nothing if you arrive at the ED prepared to wait and happy to clog up the works for relatively simple GP related aspects. I am so appreciative that our ED workers do, in the majority of cases, get it right.

            The triage of blood and breathing seem to get attended to.

            To ease the pressure on our EDs what can we suggest?

            I think people who have jobs with unsympathetic bosses who don't let them have time off to see a GP during the day are part of the problem, with the only other time being after work and the only free place being the ED. .

            Hence the idea of having a GP practice actually at the hospital. Wgtn has an after hours clinic but it still requires paying an amount for the consultation. It is a couple of blocks away from the hospital.

            • joe90 3.3.1.2.2.1
              22 November 2022 at 5:57 pm

              I often wonder if they had a GP clinic running in parallel, ie in the same building as the ED if this would make a difference

              A private walk-up GP clinic shares a waiting area with the Whanganui ED.

              Triage refers anything other than an emergency to the GP clinic so people turn up after hours at the ED to avoid the fee.

              https://www.wrhn.org.nz/whanganui-accident-and-medical

              http://203.167.250.179/content/treatment-and-cost

              • Shanreagh …
                22 November 2022 at 6:04 pm

                Yes fees and not able to access time off are the things needing to be looked at. Fees especially to stop the clogging up of EDs. GP clinics need to be 24 hour set-ups. Good if they are co-located.

                • joe90 …
                  22 November 2022 at 6:24 pm

                  To paraphrase my sister the nurse manager after a few wines – “people live dog-awful lifestyles, do doing nothing to look after themselves, make multiple visits to EDs, are no-shows at out-patient clinics and then, when they're very, very ill, are admitted to the unit and they expect us to fix them”

                  • psych nurse …
                    22 November 2022 at 6:43 pm

                    Exactly, they also take too many illicit drugs, end up in my institution with a drug induced psychosis, assault staff, end up secluded for days, require restraint and intramuscular medication, slowly recover only to repeat the experience two weeks later, that's why your depressed Grand Mother can't access good timely appropriate care. Half the people in ED don't need to be there, the ingrown toenail can wait.

          • gsays 3.3.1.2.3
            22 November 2022 at 5:54 pm

            Ok, you have felt burnt out and under appreciated in the past. In no way do I wish to denigrate or minimise your experience.

            You may or may not know of a moral injury. Akin to burn out, where there is a perceived or actual lack or short-coming in the individual, only with a moral injury the lack or short-coming is with the system. Usually due to a lack of resources (staff, facilities, drugs), time or will.

            Time and time again, through a shift, health staff have to make shitty priority decisions. Tell that elderly diabetic couple that she will have to wait 12 hours to be seen to get the very low sodium addressed (coeliac).

            To do this day in and day out, with no change in sight.

            UK nurses are entering strike action, and as Frankie Boyle observes, during Covid, when lots of folk would applaud the health professionals he didn't realise he should have done it sarcastically.
            In the first couple of mins * some salty language*

            As Anker says, the health shortages ain't new. It is the profound lack of creativity and imagination in Nats and Labour (particularly the 2nd choice Health Minister Dr Doolottle) that is making a dire situation worse.

            Pay the tuition fees for all nurse and G.P. students and if they happen to be Maori or P.I. a $300 a week payment that is forgiven three years after graduation if they are still working in Aotearoa.

  5. Sabine 5
    22 November 2022 at 10:27 am

    a bit of sunshine and excellent music

  6. Poission 6
    22 November 2022 at 11:40 am

    NZ trade deficit blows out to an annual 12.9 b$, from last years 4.9b$.

    Dairy export values saving it from being worse.The blowout on the national credit card is going to be expensive going forward in a high debt,high interest rate world.

    https://www.stats.govt.nz/information-releases/overseas-merchandise-trade-october-2022/

  7. weston 7
    22 November 2022 at 11:53 am



    George Galloway interviews an interesting guest Johnny Mills who's reporting from Donesk they discuss such things as Ukraine's kill list , the lack of any mainstream reportage from the area because of the ' unpalatable ' nature of the truth and the fairly vicious sanctions applied by both Germany and the UK to reporters who are in eastern parts of Ukraine and reporting truthfully the situation there .

  8. Molly 8
    22 November 2022 at 12:01 pm

    Posting with little commentary, but with reference to proposed hate crime legislation:

    on tiktok

    This loose application of perceived hate is an example of good intentions going awry.

    https://youtu.be/SC905EneF0s

    • weka 8.1
      22 November 2022 at 12:09 pm

      replaced the tiktok embed with YT, just because it displays better on TS.

    • weka 8.2
      22 November 2022 at 12:20 pm

      I was nearly finished with some long commentary 😉

      If people want to understand why there is concern about how hate crime legislation is being developed, here's one of the reasons why.

      Kellie Jay Keen (in the above 4m video) is a British gender critical activist who believes that women are adult human females. She runs rallies in public outdoor spaces where women are free to step up to the mike and talk about the issues as they see them. She's right wing, allies with conservatives including in the US, and doesn't call herself a feminist (I think because of the parts of liberal feminism which insist in including trans women in feminism). If any of that bothers you, know that No Debate has ensured that the narrative is often controlled by the right, so you can't really complain if you support No Debate.

      KJK is charismatic, clever, strategic, and her motto is is that she always wins. She may also be transphobic (in the sense that she dislikes trans people for who they are), but I find it hard to tell because her rhetoric is blunt and no holds barred.

      In this 4m video she records a phone conversation with the Brighton police who are asking her to attend a voluntary interview in Brighton (not where she lives) because they are investigating "an allegation against you about a hate crime".

      When asked what hate crime, the police woman says "use of words or behaviour that stir up hatred on the grounds of sexual orientation". She also says they have looked at the evidence (noting this because UK police have had to back track on actions like this). And later clarifies that they have substantial evidence that KJK has committed a hate crime.

      The voluntary bit is she can go to Brighton and if she doesn't her local police may come and arrest her and do the interview that way. In other words, it’s voluntary unless you don’t do it and then we will arrest you.

      KJK says under her YT vid that she has no intention of attending the interview, and I will guess that she already has a good legal and media strategy planned if they do arrest her. It’s extremely unlikely that she did said anything to stir up hatred about LBG people, but socially there has been a significant shift in what sexual orientation means eg lesbians can be biological males. So saying something like lesbians don’t have dicks may now be considered incitement. Certainly gender activists are pushing hard for this kind of interpretation.

      Helen Joyce (author of Trans) and Maya Forstater (the woman who successfully won an employment case that established that gender critical views are protected under UK law ie you cannot fire someone for those views) were both at the rally.

      Joyce said this on twitter,

      I was there at the rally in Brighton, as was @MForstater – and as were a large number of lesbians and a decent showing of gay men. The idea that PP committed a hate crime based on horrible words about sexual orientation is simply absurd. This is using the police for harassment

      Context here is that there are indeed an increasing number of complaints to UK police about gender critical views. People have been arrested for tweets that may be rude and even offensive but sit well within the cultural norms of what we are allowed to say.

      Complaints are obviously being used as a political tactic to try and take out prominent GC activists. There will be lefties who think good, but the problem here is that the bar is incredibly low for what is being considered a hate crime. People have been arrested with no notice, at home in front of their kids. For tweeting. Often once it all plays out, it turns out that the statements made weren’t in fact a hate crime, but there is still a record of the incident.

      UK Home Secretary Suella Braverman has intervened a number of times, and it appears there is now some change in how some police forces interpret and act and record. But obviously this shit is still going on today.

      So when progressives in NZ push for hate crime legislation, and MPs cannot clearly state where the boundaries will be and how the legislation will be used, many of us are looking at what has already happened in the UK and failing to see how this is a good idea.

      Myself, I'm agnostic on hate crime legislation per se (and don't know if it can be handled by existing legislation better applied). My objection here is the way it is being done and that it comes at a time when there is intentional activism to stop women speaking about women's rights.

      • weka 8.2.1
        22 November 2022 at 12:22 pm

        that should have been a post of course, but No Debate 🤷‍♀️

      • Visubversa 8.2.2
        22 November 2022 at 12:33 pm

        You would think the UK Police might have learned a bit after this – but no.

        Harry Miller (Fair Cop) v College of Policing.

        https://www.bbc.com/news/uk-england-lincolnshire-59727118

      • Sabine 8.2.3
        22 November 2022 at 2:04 pm

        I watched her 'speakers corners' live from Brighton, and there was nothing transphobic – unless we consider the noting wanting men in female prisons and female single sex spaces and such as transphobic – nor was there hate speech on grounds of sexual orientation. The interesting bit is that the whole 'speakers corner ' was live streamed and is still accessible.

        Which is funny as sexual orientation under the transumbrella is a no no – genital preferences are transphobic by default as they are based on sex and thus exclusionary and if one wants to be gay or a lesbian then that is same gender orientated. Thus two transwomen can be lesbians, two transmen can be gay, a transwomen and a 'woman' can be lesbians, a transwoman and a man can be gay.

        So the only thing that could have been a hate crime against 'sexual orientation' would be the assertion of women who don't want to date female dick or men who don't want to date male pussy.

        There was however a women who works for the local Labour doodah of Brighton who yelled at a father that he raises his toddler to be a fascist for standing around listening to the speeches a whole raft of women gave. And the dude that was arrested with a bag full of knives.

        I would also not consider KJK 'right wing' but rather old fashioned conservative. Work until pregnancy, stay at home Mum, swing voter, user of contraception, atheist, drinker of alcohol, haver of fun etc.

        But then anyone who who goes against the “left” must be by default a right winger. Just another number of words that have become meaningless and are applied willy – nilly not to state a truth but to paint someone with a brush of disapproval. And maybe some on the left should really think about using these brushes as the left in England is losing women voters for precisely the reasons KJK and her supporters raise ever time they hold a speakers corner.

        I for one will watch this with much interest. If she will put up a Go fund me I will throw some moolah at her and her lawyers.

        • weka 8.2.3.1
          22 November 2022 at 2:23 pm

          do you know where the Brighton video is? Had a look on her YT and FB and can't see it.

          I don't consider naming someone RW to be a brush of disapproval, it's more just an acknowledgement of where she sits on the political spectrum. Joyce is centre right as well. Stock is left wing but not radfem and so on. For me it's not a big deal, but it is helpful within gender critical thinking given how far of the political spectrum gender identity criticism stretches.

          I think Keen would be comfortable with the Tory government in the UK assuming they keep pushing back against GI.

          • Molly 8.2.3.1.1
            22 November 2022 at 2:49 pm

            The #LetWomenSpeak events are posted under LIVE, not VIDEOS.

            Part 1, below:

            https://youtu.be/ZXLyRpKiwqk

          • Sabine 8.2.3.1.2
            22 November 2022 at 2:50 pm

            part one

            part two

            some more here

            some more

            plus there are a whole raft of videos on twitter that were posted on the day itself.

          • Sabine 8.2.3.1.3
            22 November 2022 at 2:59 pm

            again, we don't know where she sits on the political spectrum. She is on record for having voted for Labour. She now maybe votes conservative – who knows. The Tories by all means are not right wing, in fact they are not even conservative, very much like National here.

            She is on record for being unapologetically pro-female human of all ages. And no, in this case i don't give a fuck abut spectrum. If the left wants to shut down the debate because they have decided that men are women and those that used to to be called woman are no longer that or are now a sub category below men, than that is an issue the left can take up with the official political left, but so far the left has valiantly refused to do, in fact the left is the one wielding the brush of disapproval and shame for the non consenters. She uses conservative media, very much like Kara Dansky does as this is the media that will actually listen. Again, that is the fault of the left leaning media. They can invite either of these women and a whole bunch more if they wanted to have that debate but they won’t, they actually can’t.

            Kellie Jay Keen aka Posie Parker would be comfortable with any government that would keep transgenderism out of womens toilets, refuges, rape crisis centers, hospital wards, school girls sports and changing rooms, female sport, female awards, female jobs in general. She would vote for any government that would put a stop to the mutliation and castration/sterilization of children. Sadly, like all of us we are between a rock and a hard place as the right gives no more care to us then does the left.

            This right now for women is the issue:
            The left would look us up in a prison cell with a fully intact rapist and offer us one abortion after the other, while the right would force us to carry that rapists child and co-parent. Neither parties are in any form or shape good for people like us, neither has any care for us, other then every few years they are reminded that we are good for vote harvesting and fwiw, the left still depends on that vote. See the US were birthing bodies voted for access to abortion, something the left government – any and all of them actually – refuses to codify in law, as they know full well that without abortion those birthing bodies might be voting differently and for other reasons.

            And i am really keeping it with the suffragettes here…..On the grounds of my sex………

            • weka 8.2.3.1.3.1
              22 November 2022 at 3:15 pm

              If you don't care about the political spectrum why are you talking about it?

              As I said, imo she is right wing (even if she has voted Labour in the past, plenty of RW swing voters). It's not a slur to say that, there's no defence needed.

              • Sabine …
                22 November 2022 at 10:57 pm

                Because you raised it and think it is important. I did not raise her political allegiance as i don't think it actually matters. Our issues stem from our sex, not our political affiliations.

                In the end it matters not one bit if the women is apolitical, left, or right, their oppression is on the grounds of their sex and child bearing abilities. See Afhganistan, Iran, Saudi Arabia, and even the US and UK etc.

                And even if all of the females turned into males it will then be 'males' who will be oppressed on the grounds of their sex and child bearing abilites.

                There are many of us who oppose transgendersim – the cult – who are of different back grounds, religions, class/caste, educational background, race, and yet we all have one thing in common. Our sex.

                And it is getting tedious that anyone who does not tow the official line will get called a right winger, or a phobe, or a bigot, or a fascist on one side or a nazi on the other.

                What really is important is that an officer of the police is harrasing someone for the audacity to have an opinion which may or may not have hurt the feelz of a penis having person who considers themselves a lesbian and who demands access and validation from said lesbians.

                • Molly …
                  23 November 2022 at 8:52 am

                  I now fully understand why some choose not to declare themselves a feminist. The word has so many different understandings, from within the self-declared as well as amongst the critics, that it is of very little use in indicating what view is held by a feminist. I have a personal definition, but there is no doubt in my mind it is unlikely to be the one shared by the person I engage with, so it is of no worth to refer to myself as a feminist. It leads to the possibility for misinterpretation right from the start of a conversation.

                  The same appears to be true in regards to referring to anyone as left or right. The meanings of left and right in terms of political views are so subjective, they are now useless.

                  • Sabine …
                    23 November 2022 at 9:42 am

                    Because we are not feminists. We are simply female. I don't even think that the suffragettes thought themselves as feminists. They were females who wanted to have the right to vote. ditto for everything else. Academia coined the term and wrote many books that few females read because tedious most of them, and that use that status to some extend even to shut down women whom they consider not enough or not the right kind of feminist.

                    One can be an ultra conservative women and still believe in the rights to abortion, self fulfilment, work and earning a pay to keep, education and so on and to fight for these rights. The issue was never the hijab, the issue is the forced wearing of said garment. In Trekkie universe i consider the people that would want us to shut up to the Ferengi. Women have no other rights then to negotiate their womb rental / occupancy, other then that they are to be naked (no clothes for females) and at home. And i personally fear that this is were we are headed.

                    I read this yesterday and i guess it uses better words then i do.

                    https://www.haaretz.com/jewish/2022-11-21/ty-article-opinion/.highlight/how-feminists-are-failing-haredi-women/00000184-91c8-d53f-a5fe-bbca33510000

            • Shanreagh 8.2.3.1.3.2
              22 November 2022 at 5:47 pm

              Good points Sabine.

              This is my unchanging bottom line

              Kellie Jay Keen aka Posie Parker would be comfortable with any government that would keep transgenderism out of womens toilets, refuges, rape crisis centers, hospital wards, school girls sports and changing rooms, female sport, female awards, female jobs in general.

              I do not feel as strongly on this aspect

              She would vote for any government that would put a stop to the mutliation and castration/sterilization of children

              So long as children below the age of consent are not able, through sleight of hand, to access physical changing (hormones/surgery) but can be counselled.

              • Sabine …
                23 November 2022 at 12:03 am

                i believe her sincere enough. Would she vote labour if they said they would stop it? I would think so. Would she trust Labour to uphold to do it? That is another thing altogether. Ditto for the Tories. In fact ditto for any Party, not a single women – the born ones at least – should trust any party in regards to these issues. For them we don't exist.

              • Molly …
                23 November 2022 at 9:01 am

                Social transition for children is not benign. So the removal of access to hormones and surgery is only dealing with part of the harm.

                The indoctrination occurring via our education system and other funded community promotions and materials has a psychological impact on all children who come in contact with it.

                Patient centred care based on evidence would take a watchful waiting approach for minors, instead we have legislation that would put anyone advising or promoting this approach at risk of prosecution. People will avoid that approach as a pre-cautionary measure to maintain their professional status and livelihoods.

                • Shanreagh …
                  25 November 2022 at 7:30 pm

                  Yes I know what you are saying…..I pointed out that my first priority as a woman was to seek to preserve our hard-won gains, while others would focus on the why are they allowing this to happen to our children. They are not mutually exclusive.

                  • Molly …
                    25 November 2022 at 9:17 pm

                    I didn't say they were mutually exclusive.

                    Just added social transition to the hormones/surgery harms you identified for children.

          • Anker 8.2.3.1.4
            22 November 2022 at 7:11 pm

            https://thedailyblog.co.nz/2022/11/21/british-tories-are-raging-socialists-compared-to-our-labour-party-government/

            On a related note John Minto on the Daily Blog says the conversative party in the UK under Sunak is more to the left (raging socialists) than Labour

            • weka 8.2.3.1.4.1
              22 November 2022 at 7:39 pm

              yeah but only in the last five minutes and because the country was about to collapse. It's Minto's rhetoric around tax policy and public sector spending in a few areas. It's not that the Tories are left of NZ Labour across the board.

      • Molly 8.2.4
        22 November 2022 at 2:45 pm

        Thanks weka. The hate crime legislation assumes a continuation of current identified vulnerable minorities. With a change of parliament, who knows what characteristics will be added to the list?

        I have an aversion to adding a more valued or more persecuted layer of protection to certain victims of crime. Sentencing after conviction should be equal as determined by the crime – not by the social status of the victim. There are too many variables in what is considered hate, and how that applies under legislation.

        We have examples from overseas of the use of the police authorities and hate legislation to harass, and persecute women such as above.

        • Sabine 8.2.4.1
          22 November 2022 at 3:06 pm

          That is the point of such legislation. To keep in check those that might be of the mind to say NO, and we all know who in society is not allowed to say NO.

    • Anker 8.3
      22 November 2022 at 2:26 pm

      Kellie Jean is brilliant. I hear she is coming to NZ

  9. Molly 9
    22 November 2022 at 3:23 pm

    Did think about whether to post, but once again, this is current and NZ relevant.

    It is also directly relevant to ongoing discussions around how inclusiveness rhetoric often excludes the voices of the unapproved Māori and women – in this case – when dealing with the NZ Midwifery Council

    Michelle Uriarau (Mana Wāhine Kōrero) once again, writes comprehensively about the problems in formal submission:

    https://rexlandy.substack.com/p/from-mana-wahine-korero?utm_source=substack&utm_medium=email

    • weka 9.1
      22 November 2022 at 3:50 pm

      wow. That is incredible.

      I really need to go read the relevant docs, because I cannot understand how they got from midwifery that centres women to decentering women to the point of invisibility.

    • Shanreagh 9.2
      22 November 2022 at 5:58 pm

      I hope they (Michelle et al) take a case to Treaty of Waitangi Tribunal against the craziness coming out of the Midwifery Council.

      Making all bio women invisible is one way I guess to be able to concentrate on those who really are deserving of help……chest feeders etc. sarc/

      • Molly 9.2.1
        22 November 2022 at 6:11 pm

        I would hope that common sense would prevail which would make further actions unnecessary. Such a large expenditure of energy required to hold ground in terms of respect for women.

        The list of contributors includes a couple of the usual suspects, I noticed.

      • Visubversa 9.2.2
        22 November 2022 at 8:44 pm

        That is certainly who it is about. It is not about those few women who demand we call them men who have not managed to completely opt out of their biology and who do that most female of things and have a child,

        It is not about those who can – it is about those who cannot.

        The autogynephiliac men who want to completely take to themselves the concept of "woman" have a problem. While they can perform "femininity" they cannot perform women's reproductive functions. Therefore those things have to be uncoupled from the word "woman" and relegated elsewhere. Some just out into the public sphere -"pregnant people" and some removed from humanity entirely – the famous Lancet front page of "bodies with vaginas" that is so far removed that it encompasses dogs and giraffes as well as human beings. This is all done so that the entire concept of "woman" can be possessed by those who are not women.

        • Sabine 9.2.2.1
          22 November 2022 at 11:38 pm

          This is not even about these people. This is about who will control the reproduction of the human species.

          I have said it some time ago, any Transwomen who legally is a 'woman' can not be happy about what is done, as it will affect them too. This is a movement that is using Transpeople to hide behind.

      • Sabine 9.2.3
        23 November 2022 at 8:23 am

        That would be the way to go. Another crowd fundraiser/bake sale to throw money and donations for sale at.

      • Molly 9.3.1
        23 November 2022 at 8:43 am

        I think it's worh posting the opening paragraphs:

        "So, Te tatou o te Whare Kahu | Midwifery Council is the body that regulates all midwives in Aotearoa New Zealand. It just published its proposed Revised Scope of Practice for midwives. In it the words women and mother are removed and replaced with the word whānau.1 Ex-midwife and health researcher Sarah Donovan responded to this. Dr Donovan is concerned about the removal of these words given, as she states, midwifery is “arguably the most woman-centred and mother-centred of all health professions”.

        While arguing that the changes are made to better support Māori women not all Māori are in agreement. In this interview Michelle Uriarau, from Mana Wāhine Korero argues that the Māori women chosen for consultation were handpicked and are far from representative of all iwi in Aotearoa. Uriarau also considers that Te Tiriti o Waitangi2 is being used to justify changes actually wanted by key transgender advocates who are big fans of degenderising language3.

        It’s a great interview where Uriarau refuses to comply with the entirely theory-based gender woo that would try and take biology out of even the most visceral embodied experiences.

        “When you give birth it’s not a philosophical act” said Ms Uriarau. Gold."

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