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Open mike 22/09/2013

Written By: - Date published: 8:46 am, September 22nd, 2013 - 213 comments
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Open mike is your post. For announcements, general discussion, whatever you choose.

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Step right up to the mike…

213 comments on “Open mike 22/09/2013 ”

  1. North 1

    Reported in the Herald online this morning – ShonKey Python at Balmoral telling the Queen – “It’s a magnificent property.”

    “Property” ?

    Callow, embarrassing prick – wonder if he got an agency signed up ?

    • Tim 1.1

      Like most of the Natzis – ‘crass’ – worn as a badge of honor too!

    • Clement Pinto 1.2

      May be Key should recommend queen to sell 49% of her “magnificent property” to some other rich pricks to wallow in too.

  2. karol 2

    Interesting profile comparison between Key and Cunliffe: very similar except Key a little more ‘agreeable” and Cunliffe a little more “conscientious”.

    Key can be very well prepared on some things, but he doesn’t have anywhere near as strong a grasp on policy and political procedures. This is where he opens himself to challenge.

    Though I think the more telling contrasts would be between political values.

    • David H 2.1

      “Though I think the more telling contrasts would be between political values.”

      This is so true One Key wants to sell everything in sight and borrow borrow borrow.

      Then to accuse the opposition of conspiring to borrow. What needs to be done when he accuses Labour of going to Borrow, is to ask him how much they have borrowed,
      A: since they came to power.
      B: in the last 12 months.
      C: in the last week

      Here’s a running total

      This really is a Show Me The Money, moment.

      And the other wants to save what hew can for the good of ALL.

      Now to stop the Megalomaniacs from selling everything in sight.

      • Zorr 2.1.1

        Not just a “how much have you borrowed” because that can just be thrown back in the face with comparative figures either from the last Labour government or any proposed shadow budget by current Labour.

        The real values question to ask is “What has the spending bought us?” If you can answer that question with a laundry list of improvements then you can shrug it off but the truth of the current NACToids is that they don’t have such a list. They have some inefficient spending on expensive roads, bulldozing of democracy, selling the silverware and bankrolling their rich mates when their Ponzi schemes go belly up.

        Cunliffe would really have Key nailed on this one too because if Key did the “well, what would Labour have done?” it is obvious that Cunliffe would have his laundry list ready.

      • bad12 2.1.2

        Yes show us the money, amid the smoke and mirrors there seems to be some really ‘interesting’ creative accounting occurring,

        Bill from Dipton cannot be accused of manipulating the ‘books’ only because when you look across the ‘numbers’ between the Reserve Bank, Treasury, and, the Office of Debt Management there is the distinct feeling of ‘something fishy is going on here’ but without putting in the hours of comparing the various numbers being produced to find the fish it is hard to pin-point the exact sleight of hand being used,


        Bills ‘the books are in surplus’ to be the center piece of National’s economic miracle message for the 2014 election is of course one hell of a big lie,

        National in i think years 2011-2012 went on a borrowing binge claiming ‘money’ was so cheap that they were borrowing for the needs of the Government into the future,

        This has lead to a confusion of figures which make claims that the Government debt is as low as 50 billion and as high as close to 80 billion,

        The difference in the accounts of the actual debt size is of course buried somewhere in the Treasury accounts?, and this allows Bill from Dipton to declare in year 2014 the magic ‘balancing of the books’, by claiming that in that year it has not borrowed,

        Much smoke and mirrors, much BS, the only way such a surplus can occur is because this National Government borrowed that money in the previous years,

        The debt for year 2017 will still be up in the 70 billion dollar range no matter how they account for when it was borrowed…

        • srylands

          God Bad12 you are such a fiscal genius. Why aren’t you employed by the Government as a fiscal analyst instead of living in a State House in Hamilton giggling over the back fence when it gets too rowdy?

          • bad12

            LOLZ SSLands, its Wellington Not the ‘Tron’ a slight correction in the vein of you ‘Wing-nuts’ never quite being able to get ‘the facts’ right,

            Actually SSLands i am pleased you showed up this morning as i have an important question to ask you about ‘Choice’,

            Admittedly this query to you personally assumes that you personally are my bill payer, not quite the literal truth but i have decided to adopt you sort of in the vein of the ‘average’, i would insert dickhead here but we are trying to not inflame your tiny wee ‘Wing-nut’ so early in the morning,(considering you might have an issue with transferrance of an inflamation to your close family members),

            Ok enough of the small talk here comes the meat of my query, Labour for quite some time had a beneficiary policy where in a one stop shop process beneficiaries could go into the local WINZ office and purchase a second-hand washing machine or fridge online and have it delivered,

            In National’s 2013 budget Bill from Dipton announced what seemed the very same policy for which i poo pooed Him here at the Standard,

            This week Bill and Paula announced the details of this policy and it seems that now beneficiaries can go into the WINZ office and using the very same online scheme purchase the same items, Fridges, Washing Machines, but instead of ‘second hand’ these items will now all be brand spanking new,

            So SSLands, Ha ha ha, excuse the chortle, you being my adopted bill payer and myself knowing just how much you value ‘Choice’ i propose that you choose,

            As it is now National Party policy that i have a new fridge and washing machine thanks to Bill and Paula i propose that you SSLands choose for me, which brand spanking new appliance do YOU want to buy ME SSLands, the fridge or the washing machine,

            Ha,ha ha, while your choosing SSLands don’t have a mental breakdown old chap…

            • blue leopard (Get Lost GCSB Bill)


              Whilst I commend your efforts of the get-the-nat-frothing-at-the-mouth sport, in the name of accurate information I have to interject and mention that these whiteware products are purchased via govt assisted loans to the recipient and are not given away.

              This was clearly stated on parliament channel the same day that our ever-degenerating lamestream media advertised them as ‘handouts’.

              I would complain that our media can’t get anything correct, however it is pretty clear that this misinformation is a deliberate attempt at a similar frothing-at-the-mouth sport that I assume is conducted by the media in order to ensure that plenty of people vote for the clowns who are in govt now, so that the owners of our media can continue to live in a perklands bonanza.

              Of course voters for the National Circus, I mean, Party can only be created through severe misinformation such as this. Another example is how they fool people into viewing the Fiscal Fools (thanks for the term, lprent) currently running this country into the ground are good at financial management. What a joke!

              This is the only way votes can be collected for the Naff party: The NAtional Fiscal Fools Party.

              • bad12

                BL, spoil everyone’s birthdays too did you, my annoyance is deepened by SSLands having done a Ronnie Biggs thus failing to choose which piece of white-ware He was going to buy for me, lolz,

                i am fully aware of the conditions which are attached to the buying of such whiteware through WINZ,(thanks for the lecture anyway),

                Your analysis of how Tory voters are ‘created’ is of course debatable and if you suggest anyone reading my comment above is suddenly going to have a rush of blood to the head and change their vote to National then i would suggest not only is your analysis debatable it would also be laughable…

                • blue leopard (Get Lost GCSB Bill)

                  Lolz, yeah, sorry about that, though SSlands wasn’t replying anyway It wasn’t a lecture for you, just for people who having already watched the spin on TV, might get it set in their minds that this was a free gift.

                  • bad12

                    Will catch up with that one and put the question to him again, the interesting point about how you describe the mainstream media using such largesse to gain National party voters is that (a) it’s them doing the ‘giving’, and lolz (b) used as a heavy blunt instrument, and also true, such largesse when thrown in the face of the ‘wing nuts’ might just have them in a quandary over who to vote for,

                    i cannot see such changing of course the hardened right whingers, they will all simply have a memory lapse until such time as the ‘left’ are the Government again and then blame that Government…

  3. Rogue Trooper 3

    ahhh, The Americas Cup, according to a sports sociologist from ‘down south’;
    -is about corporate sponsors versus corporate sponsors
    -has limited international appeal
    -little more than a ‘token achievement’ for the country as a whole.

    all those folk gathering for the big-screen, waterside spectacles, kinda’ like Telethon for Big Money Corporates.

    • Zorr 3.1

      I’ve never understood it.

      It is the ultimate in rich people’s sports but yet they have somehow tied it to our myopic sporting fervor through the idea that if NZ can compete on the international stage at the highest levels in something then obviously that it is a good thing.

      If we win it, what does it mean? For us as a country? We get to host the next one at a massive loss (like all major sporting events)? Sounds like a goer to me!

      • Rogue Trooper 3.1.1

        …children in tears, women chewing their finger-nails down to the quick, men with heads in their hands…some vicariousness to aushpire to. 🙂

      • Populuxe1 3.1.2

        The yachts are beautiful to watch, slicing through the water. All the improvements to Auckland’s waterfront as public space are ultimately to be traced back to the last time we won the America’s Cup, as is our $1 billion a year boat building industry. A a little bit of national pride never hurt anyone.

        • McFlock

          Well, the injection of government funding might have helped with the auckland waterfront (as did the RWC), but Wellingtin also has quite a nice waterfront development without the AC. Likewise,. attributing the entire NZ boat-building industry to the AC is a bit… bold.

          We did have quite a good boatbuilding industry before KZ7, you know.

      • Tim 3.1.3

        ….. and now ‘the Joyce’ is trumpeting how an Amurricuz Cup win will benefit regional new Zealand. Fuck me with a feather duster!
        If New Zealanders swallow that, then I’ve misjudged the extent of Kiwis’ ability to swallow bullshit and smile, and a move elsewhere is still in order.
        Cunliffe sure has a battle ahead don’t he? Let’s hope he begins the resurrection at the bottom.

        I’ll be back for the 2017 vote when there’s an actual record of neo-liberal reversal

    • GregJ 3.2

      I’m lucky – I live in a part of the world where there is zero coverage of it – nothing in papers, television or radio. None of my colleagues have even heard of the America’s Cup. It’s only the occasional family Facebook posts and infrequent dips into the mainstream NZ media that even makes me aware of it.

    • muzza 3.3

      ahhh, The Americas Cup, according to a sports sociologist from ‘down south’;

      -is about corporate sponsors versus corporate sponsors

      That’s exactly what it’s about

      has limited international appeal

      Much less appeal than even rugby, on a global scale – Its the uber wealthy on water competition of choice!

      -little more than a ‘token achievement’ for the country as a whole.

      Correct, meanwhile we set records or poverty, inequality, and other important measures, so I would challenge, that use of the word token, would be too strong!

      all those folk gathering for the big-screen, waterside spectacles, kinda’ like Telethon for Big Money Corporates.

      Yes Rogue, the people think they’re winning, so they jump on the bandwagon. I do understand that it is a pleasant distraction from all the serious issues, which the same crowed, are no doubt giving as much bandwidth to support!

      • Chooky 3.3.1

        @ Muzza…..churlish Calvinism gives Labour a bad name….

        ….how much does that macho sport of rugby cost us every year for the tetraplegics and quadraplegics and those with brain, back and knee injuries…..has anyone done any costings…..I expect it is in the multi, multi-millions

        Give me yachting any day!….it is a girlie and dolphin friendly sport

        • muzza

          @ Chooky – I’ve no party preference!

          I think you misinterpreted by comments, such is the limits of digital faceless comms.

          My comment was towards the Americas Cup, and the grandiose event that it has become, not an indictment on yachting, as a sport/hobby etc

      • Rogue Trooper 3.3.2

        tokenism ; came in little paper sweetie bags, to exchange for milk, delivered fresh to you each day, in the not so distant past, muzza.
        Watched the replay of The Nation discussing, among other issues, the RWSS Dam; Connor English, speaking in token tongue, “Hawkes Bay has flat and ageing population, the 30-somethings are leaving (yep, lengthy trains of white-flight refugees clogging the roads out of the place, people falling by the way and being left to die ) crime-rate disproportionately high… Of course, with horticulture on the plains being a significant employer of the precariat, a dam 50km south, in country mainly suitable for pastoral investment, is going to help a lot, Not!
        Trees (that are a 40-year investment) are dying young according to Paul Paynter of the Growers Action Group, thanks to an “autocratic, adversarial, bullying ” HBRC, exemplified in it’s chair, Fenton Wilson, who himself acknowledges, the RWSS “won’t help all of HB”.
        Just more cow-pat.

        • Kevin Welsh

          The RWSS is just more corporate welfare that will encourage the growing of unsustainable crops (or potential dairy conversions) by a mere handful of farmers – should they decide to buy water rights. The same problems will remain with water usage in HB with demand exceeding supply and the Tukituki river continuing its descent as another NZ river that you cannot even swim in.

          As for the Growers Action Group, yet more selfish horticulturalists who think they should have unfettered access to underground aquifers and not pay for the use.

          • Rogue Trooper

            yes Kevin Welsh.

          • Paul Paynter

            Growers don’t want more water, just sensible measures if a ban is imposed. To just switch off the water and let the trees die, is economic madness, particularly when the HBRC’s own reports indicate we’re using less than 10% of the aquifer water. All we want is sensible measures to avoid tree deaths. There are potentially quite a number of these which don’t involve any more water from the low flow rivers – you just need a flexible council that wants to help.

    • Dem Young Sconies 3.4

      A sport for the entertainment of rich wankers. I wish nothing more than for a crushing defeat of our own set of feckwits, and an end to government support.

      • Chooky 3.4.1

        …and lets end govt support for rugby and make the orcs pay for their own medical insurance

        …lets get real and do some real cost accounting on the real costs of certain sports in this country….( which exclude half the population)

        • Dem Young Sconies

          The government should absolutely not give any profit driven (NZRFU etc) sport financial support, but I will never agree with privatising the function performed by ACC.

          If we want to reduce the cost of sports injuries to ACC, we can remove the draconian rules around where an injury is sustained. Employers should help pay towards ACC for sports related injuries, as they do currently for injuries sustained at work.

          • Chooky

            Rugby Union should pay insurance for rugby injuries…..I want to see how much they are costing the country….multi- millions I expect. Employers should not have to pay for this !

            All other aspects of ACC I agree….ie no privatising of ACC

            • Blue

              Professional rugby players are employed to play rugby. Employed. It’s their job. ACC covers work related injuries. Amateur rugby players pay their levies like anyone else does. Hence both are entitled under law to be covered. No different than a psychopath in prison, a Forestry worker, factory worker or any New Zealander employed or not. The key with ACC is ‘no fault’ and levies are scaled to risk. Your pathological hatred of a sport is laughably sad.

              • Dem Young Sconies

                Precisely. Professional sports people have their injuries covered by their employer. There is no reason that amateur athletes shouldn’t also be covered by their employers. Same goes for other injuries too. ACC should be a one-stop cover for both accident and illness, and employers should do their part.

                • Chooky

                  @ Dem Young Sconies….you seem to think that all employers are rich!…this is quite quite naive

                  …..there needs to be some realism here….research and graphs showing exactly how rich most employers are……I expect most earn very little ….and many others go to the wall

                  • Populuxe1

                    If you can’t afford to pay your employees properly and look after them properly, then you don’t deserve to have any.

                    • Tim

                      Something that escapes most claiming occupancy of a supposed “1st World ‘nation-state'”.
                      I’ve never understood why people try and complicate matters as much as they do

                      IF you wish to claim 1st world, civilised nation-state status,
                      THEN IF you cannot afford to pay your employees a livable income for a 40 hour week …
                      THEN your business is not viable

                      ELSE pull your fekn weight, pay your dues, stop screaming how hard done by you are (clutching at any and every excuse possible), and do the decent thing – that there ‘THING’ you’re so ready to define you as “1st World”)

                      Otherwise = please …. STOP the fukn pretemse! There are others ready to step up to the plate

              • Chooky

                @ …not “pathological hatred” ….just economics…..and observations of the tetraplegics and quadraplegics and very serious lifelong injuries that come out of the male rugby religion sport……the cost of this to the taxpayer……and putting the “pathological hatred” of NZ yachting competitions into perspective…

                Someone needs to do a costing of how much very serious lifelong rugby injuries are costing NZ …..vs….contributions to the NZ team at the Americas Cup

                • Descendant Of Sssmith

                  It’s not economics at all.

                  ACC is insurance – it’s just spread out over the whole population and has nad the taking of profit removed.

                  It’s the cheapest possible way to ensure the best possible coverage.

                  Rugby costs are significant cause lots of people play rugby – not just cause it’s a physical sport.

                  Divide the rugby costs by the number of players and you’ll find lots of things more expensive – skiing for one.

                  You also ignore profoundly the benefits of playing rugby, esp in terms of fitness and health, teamwork, etc in your consideration.

                  God forbid we ever get the rabid nature of soccer fans here that we see overseas with all the violence that that entails.

                  If you really wanted to do something about reducing ACC costs here you’d restrict access to alcohol and you’d increase public transport and put an age limit on old farts playing golf.

                • Blue

                  If it’s costed, as I said the levies are set by the level of risk.

                • Blue

                  Costs gave been calculated, hence the levies we and employers pay are a function of exposure. Life changing Rugby injuries particularly the ones you seem to try to claim as common, are not as frequent as you seem to think. They have reduced by 70% over the last 20 years. There were 3 last year out of 150,000 participants in rugby.

                  What’s next. ? Stopping car racing, horse racing, cricket, hockey skiing? Anything that involves risk? Where do you draw the line ? A life without risk taking, relying on others, being in a team or exhibiting courage is no life at all. It may suit some, but for the life of me I can only imagine how utterly boring that would be.

              • Foreign Waka

                Yes, no fault. But Rugby Players KNOW that they are going deliberately into a contact sport scenario whereby they WILL hurt each other – this is the main attraction of the sport (not much change since the gladiators).
                A roofer is not repairing a roof when he knows the he will be injured, a skier is not going down a slope knowing that he/she will hit a tree – you follow me? So strictly speaking there is premeditation involved. I would like to know what ACC is paying Rugby Players vs other work injuries. A Rugby player earns a hell of a lot more money then an average worker. A Rugby player can stay on lifelong disability whereas a roofer, electrician etc cannot. I think you will get the picture by now that the average NZlander is paying for some to “live their dream” but when it comes to their lot can end up in poverty.
                So if there are rules than they should apply in an equitable manner. Either the Rugby player pays for the risk HE CREATES or the worker gets the same deal as the rugby player. Simple as that.

                • Descendant Of Sssmith

                  Utter tripe. Played rugby for many seasons without getting hurt. My two injuries were from two bits of illegal play – one a deliberate kick in the leg by an opposing player after I had scored a try and was walking back – and the second from a very late tackle that shouldn’t have happened.

                  You never went on the field expecting to get hurt.

                  I saw more broken legs in the seven or eight years I played soccer and the only fatality I’ve seen in a game was on the soccer field. I’ve had more friends hurt playing netball than rugby.

                  I’ve never got the anti-rugby sentiments on this site.

                  Each to their own sure but ffs if you going ski-ing course there’s a bloody risk of getting hurt and it ain’t just about hitting trees. I don’t ski precisely because I think the risk is too high – for me anyway.

                  • Foreign Waka

                    I have not talked about your “hobby” sport but professional Rugby and there are far to many excuses being made. The guys earn enough to cover their risk with an additional injury cover. Same as with professional car racers etc… It is not fair to have a worker injured on the job hurried to the loops of success bonus stats of the ACC consultant only to end up with a lifelong chronic condition and a professional Rugby Player, Soccer Player, Sailor etc. getting a lifelong disability payment because they cannot go back to play rugby or soccer or sail etc professionally. There needs to be more equality in the system. All I am saying is that the workers of NZ are covering the long term effects of the professional sports person and yet will never see the same treatment.
                    And whilst you may hove looked at sports people, I have looked at workers. You know the ones who pay all the taxes and get J…S… in the end.

                    • Blue

                      Why do you believe one form of employment (professional rugby player) is any different than any other (roofer). Employment is employment. You are being deliberately elitist because it’s rugby. In this country rugby is one of the few truly egalitarian games. There is “Equality” in the ACC system , it’s ‘no fault’, that is why your judgement statements wanting different treatment dependant on the job, are a huge outrageous load of elitist claptrap. Their earnings have nothing to go with it. Is it your suggestion that income level should define ACC cover? That is not and has never been the intent of the system, nor should it ever.

                  • Descendant Of Sssmith

                    Tried to find some more than anecdotal data. Comparing disparate data sets can only be semi indicative.

                    ACC sports claims in 2012
                    Skiing 7,623
                    Snowboarding 5,402
                    Rugby Union 58,020
                    Netball 26,184
                    Soccer 35,174
                    Rugby League 14,583
                    Cycling Mountain Biking 23,211

                    Adult Participation rates
                    Rugby Union 158,100
                    Touch Rugby 260,900
                    Soccer 143,400
                    Golf 502,000
                    Cricket 224,000
                    Skiing 163,300 (that surprised me)
                    Tennis 317,900
                    Netball 184,600

                    That gives some approximate ratios of:

                    Rugby Union 1 claim for 2.73 players (though much less if touch rugby is included in ACC’s figures)
                    Netball 1 claim for 7.05 players
                    Soccer 1 claim for 4.08 players
                    Skiing 1 claim for 21 players

                    Rugby League must be quite high but aren’t on top 15 participation list so must be below indoor cricket at 64,700 as must cycling / mountain biking.

                    I might owe skiing an apology more people do that than I thought but again even with these figures frequency of play / practice also needs to be factored in.

                    So yeah contact sports have higher rates than lesser contact sports but I’m not of the view that the difference between many of these sports justifies the angst against rugby.

                    Based on this every soccer team in the country will have one third of the players lodge a claim for ACC each year. That hardly invokes it as being safe.

                    A workplace with that record would pay higher levies.

                    This stuff all however buys into the rightwing script of user pays and playing one sector of the population off against the other.

                    Thing is well all benefit from the low cost no-fault system we have. It saddens me that people with a socialist bent think that moving away from that to any sort of insurance model, user pays type system is a good thing.

                    It’s not.

                    • Descendant Of Sssmith

                      Roofers and all workers are covered to the extent of 80% of their earnings same as professional rugby players – though most rugby players also cover personal insurance as the maximum earnings coverage by ACC is to $113,68-00 per annum. They would get 80% of that as ERC.

                      They also would have paid more in levies (as it is a percentage of their income) so I can’t see the problem.

                      The lesser ERC for the average worker is due to the fact that they earn less. The lesser pay to some self-employed is cause they manager their books to pay less in levies and tax.

                      I know farmers and builders for instance who had their wives as employees to reduce their book income. They then had accidents and their ERC was much lower because of this. Sounded good to reduce tax and ACC levies but left them in the cart when they needed the help.

                    • Descendant Of Sssmith

                      “A Rugby player can stay on lifelong disability whereas a roofer, electrician etc cannot. ”

                      I can’t even imagine why you think that? The same rules apply to all.

                    • Foreign Waka

                      Firstly: GET YOUR FACTS RIGHT and dot misuse the popularity of rugby to your own ends. This is usually Nationals method of rhetoric.

                      From the statistic ACC website:

                      Financial Year New Claims Active Claims Total Cost Injury Type %
                      Jul 2012 – Jun 2013 63,448 78,885 $76,517,641 Rudby (Union, League and Touch) 29%
                      Jul 2012 – Jun 2013 6,615 7,913 $10,648,479 Skiing 4%
                      Jul 2012 – Jun 2013 26,229 32,349 $22,195,143 Soccer 8%
                      Jul 2012 – Jun 2013 272,110 332,820 $268,027,629 All

                      I may add that I am not for USER pay at all, but I am for fair treatment for ALL.

                      Your kind of reasoning is not sound and being Rugby, the religion of this country makes it alright that such large proportion of costs are carried by everybody. Now if you can make the same argument for12 months maternity leave for new mothers I will buy your argument for professional Rugby.

                    • Descendant Of Sssmith

                      I fully support twelve months paid parental leave and am happy to pay more tax to support it.

                      You can’t ignore the number of people that do something in the assessment of risk and cost.

                      The cost is higher cause more people do it.

                      And rugby isn’t a religion – it’s a sport.

                      Religion sucks, rugby is cool.

                      And if you are going to add union, touch and league together then you get a rugby ratio ( roughly 22,000 league players in NZ) of 1 claim for every 5.5 players.

                      You also keep equating professional rugby with amateur – the vast majority of rugby players are amateur and don’t get paid a bean.

          • Greywarbler

            What are you on about – getting employers to pay ACC for employees sports injuries carried out in their own time – i.e. not professional sports for a team. Why should employers take on that cost, this is not their expense and would be an impost on them that is not reasonable. What they should do is being paying their employees living wages, giving them set basic hours and security of employment so they have time to live their lives and be people not just work units, and treat employees fairly and firmly, not autocratically.

            I think you are just gathering viewpoints that can be foisted against lefties as election fodder. Just got that feeling. Or otherwise you are a bit daft.

          • Greywarbler

            What are you on about – getting employers to pay ACC for employees sports injuries carried out in their own time – i.e. not professional sports for a team. Why should employers take on that cost, this is not their expense and would be an impost on them that is not reasonable. What they should do is pay their employees living wages, give them set basic hours and security of employment so they have time to live their lives and be people not just work units, and treat their employees fairly and firmly, not autocratically.

            I think you are just gathering viewpoints that can be foisted against lefties as election fodder. Just got that feeling. Or otherwise you are a bit daft.

            • Dem Young Sconies

              In countries like Australia employers can pay better wages, plus contribute a decent amount to employee super & benefits. Why can’t it be the same case here? Living wage is a start, but benefits that protect employees (accident/illness cover, superannuation, medical/dental cover etc) should also form part of the social contract that employers have with society.

              • Colonial Viper

                You have to increase the proportion of national income going to labour, and reduce the portion going to large corporations. the financial sector and shareholders.

              • Foreign Waka

                You asking the right questions and I for one would agree with your comment.If you are in an age group that is indicated in your name then I hope you are not an exception.

    • Murray Olsen 3.5

      America’s Cup – coming to us thanks to Rogernomics, via Michael Fay, the farm buyer who isn’t Chinese. I see it as just another nail in the coffin of all that was once Kiwi, replacing our pride in schooling and health with a fake pride in the ostentatious displays of rich white men. Kiwi bloke builds biggest artificial penis in southern hemisphere!! Yay for the hypodermic needle stuck in the middle of Auckland to remind us how these pricks are worse than drug dealers with their tainted success and unattainable asprishuns. Once we were proud of Fred Hollows, who allowed the blind to see. Some of us still are. I know I am, but I feel nothing but contempt for rich mercenaries with expensive hobbies paid for by the rest of us.

      The answer given to Queen Victoria at the first regatta, “There is no second place ma’am,” was wrong. There is, and it’s the longsuffering Kiwi, who once more gets a bloody circus but nary a crumb of the bread.

  4. Chooky 4

    @ Rogue Trooper…it is very engrossing!….everyone down here has their eyes glued to the televisions…..at least NZ has NZers crewing their boat….the Americans only have 2 Americans I think

    …..people even postponing going to work in order to watch at home..and their bosses are too ……so sports sociologist can go jump

    • @chooky..

      “..at least NZ has NZers crewing their boat….the Americans only have 2 Americans I think..”

      i think it is just a ‘wheeze’ dreamed up by the yachting sub-section of the elite..

      ..a scam/’wheeze’ dreamed up/sustained by the herne bay mafia..

      ..whereby the rest of nz’ers get to pay for them to go and have some fun..

      ..messing around in big-boats..

      ..(it’s worked brilliantly..!..to date..)

      ..phillip ure..

    • Chooky 4.2

      It is David( NZ sailors and boat builders) vs Goliath( American multinational companies’ almighty dollar) …..if you saw the clip of how the humble NZer workers made that boat in an Auckland factory shed vs how the Americans have built their boat with unlimited multinational money and technology at their disposal ….it has to be inspiring!

      Sure we fly the Emirates flag( as a sponsor) …..but even that is interesting….and a very good alliance and symptomatic of a changing world order imo…. GO NZ!!!!!

      It is way better than watching rugby….a very macho sport

      …NZ Maori and the Celts made us a great seafaring nation!

      However I would like to see some women sailors on board and some obviously Maori

      • tc 4.2.1

        I have no issue with this and a good call by clark to back it, emirates is a great sponsor who will benefit from the travel here as we are part of their global route.

        I would like to see us host a long event that levels the field out, be nice to see the aussies back like the good old days when the boats looked like boats not low flying aircraft.

        Its time to get back to racing yachts and ditching such crap rules as the 40min limit, what a joke, those boats were going 20knots not standing still so it was still racing.

      • Murray Olsen 4.2.2

        Dubai is a wonderful place. Unless you’re one of the Filipinos, Pakistanis, or Bangladeshis building it. Or a woman. Or gay. Or anything else that the Sheikh takes a disliking to. I can understand how SSlands or BM might like to be associated with them, because where else can you kill a servant who displeases you? No thanks. Paying for a few boats and having a good airline doesn’t make them someone I want a partnership with.


  5. Labour and the welfare state. Are there links to what’s to be expected in the 2014 manifesto?

    I’m sensing some left leaners with pretty unrealistic views on social security may not be in sync with what actually might be on offer come election time.
    Labour were very soft on the issue in 2011, and it clearly hurt them. I suspect in the big room, someone, somewhere knows this and is making (or made) policy more sensible and appealing to the wider electorate.

    I think the debate around the Labour direction should start now, if only to own the topic before the poll and cut the knees from under the nats.

    • bad12 5.1

      And these ‘pretty unrealistic views’ of some left leaner’s are what???, how was Labour clearly hurt by being ‘soft’ on the issue in 2011…

    • @ the allen..

      “..Labour were very soft on the issue in 2011..”

      yes..the ‘solution’ then to poverty..

      ..was to include benficiary-families in the family tax cred..

      ..(‘all good!’..i hear you say..)

      ..but as always the devil was in the detail..

      …(and as an example of black-cynicism..it is hard to beat..)

      ..’cos..y’see..!..this ‘solution’ to poverty was to be introduced ‘incrementally’..

      ..and the labour plan/promise actually set a new benchmark in ‘incrementalism’..

      ..”cos wait for it…!

      ..that parity with other ‘normal’ families would kick in in 2018..

      ..(that figure again..?..’2018′..)

      ..so..should labour listen to the paganis/dalziels in the party..and attempt some version of this next year..(a new benchmark in the offing..?..)

      ..then those who turned/stayed away from labour then..

      ..will do so again..


      ..(and..um..!..does this benchmark of the bleeding-obvious really need to be argued..?

      ..are ‘labour’ really not yet on that page..?

      ..it’s hard to tell..

      ..as they are yet to read from it..

      ..phillip ure..

    • The Al1en 5.3

      So no links to Labours policy statements or policy intent on welfare for 2014?

      There seems to be lots of expectations of what Labour should do and little on what Labour will do.
      I know we all love the welfare state and are thankful for the safety net it provides, but before we go making Labour unelectable again, and an easy peasy target for the right, we should bash heads and come up with an ethical, working system we can all rally behind.
      That will start, I suppose, when we know what reforms Labour have got planned.

      • bad12 5.3.1

        So you have nothing to say except to accuse ‘the left leaning’ of harboring unrealistic views’, s**t-stirring in other words…

        • Rogue Trooper

          The Al1ens do require interpretation at times; their signals have traveled so far.

          • The Al1en

            And it would appear they still have some way to go to make an impact in the outer reaches.

            • Rogue Trooper

              curvature in the Time-space fabric can rip ya’ undies. 😉
              -a bad12 regularly tears into some salient issues worth reminder and examination. Different Strokes Willis-” You slide so good, with bones so fair, You’ve got the universe,
              Reclining in your hair”.

              • The Al1en

                We do all have our strong points and it’s fair play to you that you call them.

                “curvature in the Time-space fabric can rip ya’ undies”

                Al1 goes commando for exactly that reason.
                Just watch out for those rings around Uranus.

                • Rogue Trooper

                  valves are well-seated, lapped in by hand, just designed a little close together, better than a target on your stern however.

        • srylands

          The left were hurt in 2011 by a the policy to extend WFF to beneficiaries. The problem with that policy for NZ is it creates a whole new constituency for Labour – what the left call “beneficiaries”. New Zealand is the only country in the OECD to have a cute collective noun for what every one else in the OECD calls “welfare recipients”.

          Labour now has an interest in maximising the number of “beneficiaries” because it is their core voting block. Create a prosperous society and goodbye left voters – which is why Australia has not had a left government since 1975 and never will again.

          A sign that Labour is serious about creating broad based prosperity in NZ will be when they abolish all references to that cute collective noun.

          • fender

            Yep, a job for everyone who can work is what is needed, glad you are now seeing National have a shit record on job growth, they prefer the opposite obviously, and you like homeless beggars and the disparity of India. But fuck you, you disgusting creep, we know you want slumlands so you can abduct homeless for your sick entertainment.

          • Descendant Of Sssmith

            Yeah cause WFF is shite and plays one set of the population off against another.

            It makes the middleclass and the self-employed feel like the bludgers they so despise, makes them give the state their financial information that the welfare part of the state doesn’t really need to need and allows the well-off with farms and trusts and crap to get the help anyway.

            Increase taxes and bring back non-income tested universal family benefit so that all get it without and of the moralising shit that happens now.

            Make a stand against the right-wing user pays charity nonsense that pervades this support.

            I don’t mind if all get it regardless of wealth. Simple and easy to administer, get it til child turns 18 end of story.

          • Murray Olsen

            We also used to share baches or cribs at the beach, other words that aren’t used elsewhere in the OECD. Maybe the fact that most of us outside Epsom also know what kai is (food, SSlands) also holds us back, not to mention whanau (extended family, SSlands) or tangata (the people, SSlands). What is your point?

        • fender

          Some seem hung-up on the working part of WFF.
          So how about a name change, what about…
          Working for Children
          Working for Family Poverty Alleviation
          Funding for Children….

          It can’t be too hard ffs

        • The Al1en

          “So you have nothing to say except to accuse ‘the left leaning’ of harboring unrealistic views’, s**t-stirring in other words”

          I’ve said plenty already about the issue, and am happy to engage in discussion about the topic. It’s one I can speak of from personal experience.

          For starters…

          Open mike 15/03/2013

          Now I can accept that someone like you with an odd world view and apparent idealogical broken record, isn’t astute enough or up to the task, and that’s okay, I still love you, but sometimes to reach agreement we have to compromise or work together to nullify the differences.
          If you think you can participate, then fair enough, but quit with the swearing or I won’t let you play 😉 😆

          • Rogue Trooper

            btw, “Gunna’s got your back” was an ‘effing good grand auto- theft.

          • marty mars

            “We all know that some people on benefits rort the system, fact. These people tarnish the name of those making use of the safety net.”

            The numbers of people like that are very very small imo but the numbers of people who like to make that statement are very very large – go figure. The numbers of people who rort the system in their tax, as high earners, through mitigation by developing trusts and other devices minimising their contribution to our society is very very large imo yet the numbers of people who make that statement, let alone do something about it, are very very small – riddle me that.

            Oh I know – middle fucken nz – I’m over them.

            • The Al1en

              “The numbers of people like that are very very small imo but the numbers of people who like to make that statement are very very large – go figure’

              Exactly, and who do you think gets heard the most or has the most airtime? Which is why the issue needs to be taken away from national as a weapon. A clear policy statement from Labour signalling their intentions will offer instant, categorical rebuttal. ie, “cut them off at the knees”.

              “The numbers of people who rort the system in their tax, as high earners, through mitigation by developing trusts and other devices minimising their contribution to our society is very very large imo yet the numbers of people who make that statement, let alone do something about it, are very very small”

              It will be lovely to see these ‘scumbags’ get taxed to teardome come. I hope there are as many tantrums and tiaras as there are hidden accounts.

            • Rogue Trooper

              All the best for the coming nuptials marty mars.

            • Blue

              ” Middle nz…I’m over them” . I wouldn’t be, they vote in (and out) every Government, no matter how you feel.

      • Dem Young Sconies 5.3.2

        Again this goes to the core of where Labour should be heading with policy. You seem to be advocating chasing the middle class vote, rather than the 800,000 working class that are disenfranchised by the current system.

        Personally I think Labour should be principled, and do what is fair. To me this would be the UBI. At the very least benefit levels should be increased to living-wage levels, and forcing people into unsuitable work, or to neglect their children in order to appease RWNJs must stop.

        • The Al1en

          To be fair I’ve not advocated that at all, but surely a good sensible policy on welfare is above vote chasing at either end of the spectrum.

          • Dem Young Sconies

            Absolutely – I didn’t make myself clear. Labour should be doing what is right, and when they do they will invigorate the 800,000 disenfranchised voters. I just don’t see the point in Labour putting out another light-blue policy in order to ‘not scare the horses’.

            • marty mars

              Be nice to see Hone as Minister of Social Development (don’t like that euphemism), or maybe John he’d be good too.

              • The Al1en

                Go on, name your odds and I’ll have a tenner on not in this universe 😆

                • it is doable in our universe allen but it would take courage and conviction not just pretty words and ‘right on’ phrases so we’ll just wait and see how this labour party pans out

                  • The Al1en

                    Make it a twenty 😉

                    • you might have 20 to lose but I don’t have any to lose – plus and more to the point, it is a non-winnable bet for you and I don’t want your money 🙂

                      it is non-winable because their is no time-frame nor descriptors of Hone or John (although we both know who I meant), plus it would become void if the name of the ministry changed and so on… into infinity.

                    • The Al1en

                      I don’t have any to lose either, but can spot the chance of easy win where I see it.

                      Yes we both knew who you meant, and you did say “this Labour party”, but deep down, whatever the time-frame or descriptors, I believe my twenty, regardless of whether you want it or not, wouldn’t be seeing the inside of your wallet any time soon…

                      Unless in some weird, unpalatable scenario where Hone or John were kingmaker, though to be brutal, I’d rather have Winston.

                    • rather have winston? lol oh deary deary me, not much I can say to that shit.

                    • The Al1en

                      Indeed, and with a bit of luck, if Labour and the Greens get their act together, the only cabinet either of them two will have to worry about is the mini bar in their hotel rooms.

                    • yeah I’d expect you not to like a Party of the left or its leaders – who are focused on social justice, creating equality for all, and supporting those who most need it within our society. You fit the ‘middle’ well allen.

                    • The Al1en

                      Are you really, Marty, arguing that Labour and the Greens are not parties of the left who are focused on social justice, creating equality for all, and supporting those who most need it within our society?

                      And you shouldn’t assume that because Hone, in my opinion, is much less palatable than Winston in government, that I’m middle anything.
                      The gritty truth, in all it’s gnarled realism shows that not to be the case at all.
                      You have perception failed for some unknown reason 😉

                      And not that there’s anything wrong with ‘middle’ for those middlers amongst us. I’m sure many, especially the ones on TS are very socially conscious.

                    • Rogue Trooper

                      not Seahorses Made of Stone , although Fools Gold shines.

                    • Both parties have their good points and both are going for the ‘middle’ – I prefer my ‘left’ quite a bit more ‘left’ than either of them, so no they aren’t focused on the items I mentioned, not nearly enough for me anyway. That okay with you allen?

                    • The Al1en

                      “That okay with you allen?”


                  • Rogue Trooper

                    The Ministry for Predistribution sounds suitably Pratchett.

    • Foreign Waka 5.4

      I hope you also take the fact into consideration that this government is subsidizing multinational REAL rich people whilst children of ever increasing numbers are living in poverty.
      A society is not defined by the lazies fair point of view, albeit this seems to be an Anglo Saxon prerogative, but by the way its most vulnerable are being treated. And by god the stories coming out of NZ are not good.

      Here is a whoooo moment that should make you think:

      “As many as 25 percent of New Zealand’s children – about 270,000 – currently live in poverty”


      “Our data, using national random sample of 3,317 older persons in 2010 and 3,015retained in 2012 in the NZ Longitudinal Study of Ageing (NZLSA) show that around a fifth of older New Zealanders live below or close to at least one of the stand ard international poverty thresholds (OECD)….”


      In other words NZ population is defined by: The very wealthy, the working class that has an every decreasing participation on NZ say and resources and the poor whose number seems to increase every year.
      So all the millions and millions spent on big business and the “mates rates” would be better invested in a society that treats its people with respect.

      • bad12 5.4.1

        Yes and the 270,000 could have been raised above that poverty line when the WFF was designed, if that benefit was designed to cover those very 270,000,

        The cost??? estimated at the time to be some 500 million dollars,

        Was the cash there, yes of course it was, Labour at the time of instituting WFF had 400 million and some dollars in the budget,

        What did Labour do with the 400 million odd dollars other than make WFF a universal child benefit, cut the tax rate for Business,

        If the children of those earning 50 or 60 grand a year ‘need’ the monies from WFF then the children at the bottom of the heap ‘need’ it 100 times more…

        • Foreign Waka

          You seem to forget that the income streams are now being sold, the last pieces of silver thrown to the rich mates. The tax structure has been changed under National so that the high income earners have even more cuts to their obligation. Not to mention the means of “hiding” money in trust funds. Do you belief that average Joe blog with 2 kids can do that? Newest addition: tax money being transferred to multimillion dollar businesses. This is lazies fair politics.

          So not only are we talking about children that are increasingly faced by poverty but also the elderly who are being treated in a very, very uncivilized and bad way. The pension is so low because of the breach of human rights act having a couple labeled as “one economic unit”. What an approach is that?
          The reason for all these cases being in this predicament is the level of income. This is regulated by the Government of the day and by what I see its back to the pre-industrial era – fast.

          To all that adds the attitude of the general population.This is not only a monetary issue, albeit taxes raised need to be fundamentally covering the need of an healthy and equitable society, it is the idea that every person has to have a fair means of survival.

  6. Student 6

    The Uni of Canterbury Student Union President Erin Jackson is running on good governance for the CHCH City Council.

    The Uni of Canterbury Student Union is doing some questionable things.

    Fabel is the company that used to provide the big events at the UCSA.

    Now the Manager who buys the bands for the UCSA buys them from a company he half owns. The company is called Fatty and Skinny. Steve John Jukes, the manager, is also half owner of this company as per the companies office company number 381 8896 incorporated May 2012. He owns it with ex-UCSA staff member Luke Spittle.

    Neither Fatty and Skinny site nor the UCSA site is open about this.

    This conflict of interest is inexcusable. How can the inside knowledge of Steve Jukes be separated from his purchasing role? This should have been brought to an end as soon as possible. Instead the UCSA defends it as normal practice.

    Also, Erin appointed herself CEO of the UCSA after the last CEO left at the end of his fixed term. So despite knowing well in advance that he was leaving she was unable to appoint a new CEO in time to take over. And then(?) she decided she should have the job.

    I don’t know if she’s taking the CEO’s pay. I hope not.

    Erin’s instincts were to appoint herself as head of the governance and management of the UCSA. This is nonsense.

    The rumour mill is that she is waiting until after the election so she can appoint . . .Steve Jukes.

    It’s just wrong.

  7. aside from another chorus/caucus hiccup..or two..

    ..both davids kicked arse on q & a..

    and mccarten slam-dunked robinson..who had a shocker..

    (quote:..arguing for all 3 to be ministers..

    ..’mallard goff and king are the soul of the labour party’..



    ..phillip ure..

    • Rogue Trooper 7.1

      the best thing about Q&A is it frees up time to get back to chores of domestic bliss (RL) such as baby-sitting the 7-month old, far more informative. 😀

      (defibrillator at-hand) 😉

    • Saarbo 7.2

      Cunliffe absolutely kicked arse on Q&A, then watching Mc carten clean Clair Robinson up was so funny, she looked pretty sour at the end of the show, brilliant.

      Fran O seems more reasonable…good to see. She has always respected Cunliffe’s capabilities and I think consequently she was quite different on this q&a show.

      • Rhinocrates 7.2.1

        Glad to see Robinson’s arse kicked – at Massey. she was/is a shit manager, allowing all sorts of illegal activity and staff abuse to happen. I don’t even know why her employers keep her in her job, since it costs a fortune in out of court settlements. She’s a liability.

        I have to say this: anyone who looks for a job at Massey, or wants to send their children there – don’t. They treat people like shit unless they’re management. They should be blacklisted as employers.

        • karol

          Getting into defamation territory, Rhino?

          • Rhinocrates

            It’s only defamation if it’s untrue. They had to pay me a lot on money to keep themselves out of court, because they knew that they were going to lose. I kept records and I’ve still got them.

            If they want to make an issue of it, it’s all going to be very public.

            I know that I’m not the only one too.

            • karol

              I think Lynn’s statement previously said, that in order to protect the site from getting drawn into court proceedings, factual statements need to be supported by (publicly available) evidence – one of the very few bottom lines for the site’s comments and posts.

              • Rhinocrates

                Fair enough – I know and could say worse, but I won’t. Just… beware: Massey is not a safe place. I think that people need to be warned. Real physical and mental harm has been done there because it’s an unsafe workplace and I’ll have the physical scars to prove it for the rest of my life.

                (publicly available)

                Good point – I have been personally threatened by Massey’s management, so I’ll say no more.

                • anne

                  oh boo hoo…

                  • Rhinocrates

                    The injury was life-threatening and directly due to cost-cutting in violation of occupational health and safety requirements – so yeah, “boo hoo” if you like – it says more about you than me.

                • Tim

                  Glad you didn’t sign one of those confidentiality agreements Rhino – that’s their usual trick. Was my bottom line too (elsewhere).
                  I’m sure they’ll be keeping very very quiet.

                  • Rhinocrates

                    Well, as Francis Urquhart might say, any agreement I may or may not have signed under my real name would pertain to other matters and not cover that incident, which is eminently verifiable and unrectified, so if they were to make an issue of it, it could be very, very expensive for them.

                  • Anne

                    Glad you didn’t sign one of those confidentiality agreements Rhino – that’s their usual trick.

                    There’s another ruse a public service agency took out on me 20 odd yrs ago- a caveat. I was prevented from opening my mouth to anyone. The matter involved an (apparent) rort against a powerful wing of the Defence Service. The bullying and terrorising that ensued caused me to stay quiet out of fear for the consequences. It was taken beyond the work-place and there was ample evidence that an overseas (but allied) intelligence agency was involved.

                    It begged the question… what the hell was going on during that period? I have concluded (with good reason) that the agency I worked for was being used to gain entry into the NZ Defence Service during the years of the anti-nuclear standoff with NZ. My presence was viewed with paranoia and suspicion because of my former association with some key members of the Lange Labour government.

              • Rhinocrates

                I would also like to point out that Steve Maharey, previously a Labour cabinet minister, a party that is supposedly the party of workers, is the Vice-Chancellor of this institution and is therefore responsible for its employment practices and workplace safety.

      • newsense 7.2.2

        Interesting to agree with Fran O’Sullivan so much- the point is that overriding procedures at whims, another property bubble and many other things are actually issues that many business people support. Fran has come on here at times and while sometimes she’s a dj and gives things a spin, sometimes she’ll shout from the hip as she did with Shane Jones and give credit where it’s due from some different sources.

        I did find it odd the idea that you can’t be a social democrat and a good economic manager. The other interesting point is the America’s cup- a Kiwi company with great vision was created which did all these fantastic graphics, but it was sunk by FRAUD =http://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/news/article.cfm?c_id=1&objectid=11127908 (Cutting-edge company felled by fraud) and with 1 billion to 6 billion the estimate of the effect of fraud on our economy surely this is part of the fable too?

        • miravox

          “America’s cup- a Kiwi company with great vision was created which did all these fantastic graphics, but it was sunk by FRAUD”

          I’m sure there are a few Randian superheroes applauding the inventiveness of the fraudster and blaming the company for it’s own downfall.

      • karol 7.2.3

        Robinson said that Goff, Mallard andKking are the “soul” of the Labour party.

        Thus Robinson shows herself to have her finger on the political pulse, with great perceptiveness re the recent tensions within the party and the shift that happened with the leadership contest. /sarc.

  8. tricledrown 8

    Srylands National were expected to cruise to victory but for a cup of tea left them with no majority so they had to give peter dunn some baubles!

  9. tricledrown 9

    Srylands how come National have always had more people on benefits!
    You keep wheeling out lies like your leader!

  10. tricledrown 10

    Srylands how come National have always had more people on benefits!
    You keep wheeling out lies like your leader!

  11. groser must get the comb-over/hair-denialist-of-the-year award..eh..?

    ..he also does quite the number in uriah heep/monty burns hand-wringing..

    ..phillip ure..

    • Dem Young Sconies 11.1

      He’s a particularly odious piece of Tory excrement aint he? Hanging him up from his combover seems like a just end for him.

  12. BLiP 12

    Although governed by its New Zealand Council, the engine room of the Labour Party is its Labour Electorate Committees (LECs). Staffed by volunteers, the LECs monitor the Branches, select candidates for election, campaign, fundraise, recruit membership . . . and on and on. It is in the LECs where you will find the most dedicated and hardest working members of the Labour Party. As part of sustaining the Party, the LEC members are also those within Labour who see and feel the real-world effects when policy becomes law. That perspective, along with their wider community contacts, makes the LECs a valuable information source and an early warning indicator of possible pitfalls or opportunities ahead. Well, usually.

    Cut to the John Key-led National Party.

    Of all the assaults on New Zealand society the National Party has carried out, among the most grevious has been the introduction, of Charter Schools. Stemming from its dodgy backroom deal with the ACT Party and driven by a failed ideology, tainted with more than just a whiff of vengeance, National ignored all evidence-based submissions which showed that no where in the world have Charter Schools obtained the goals National stated it was seeking to achieve. In fact, the evidence that is available clearly indicates that the introduction of Charter Schools will achieve the very opposite.

    Among the most vile consequences of Charter Schools is the detrimental impact they have on the educational outcomes of the poor and in minority communities, the very groups National says it is trying to assist. Having seen the evidence, both the academic studies and in person during a trip to the United States and Mexico, Labour Party spokesperson for Pacific Island Affairs, Su’a William Sio, said in the House:

    . . . [b]y introducing charter schools for the population of New Zealand, what it says to us in South Auckland is this Government is ready to gut the New Zealand education system, to take away the public education system that we have all enjoyed and of which that part of the Chamber as well as this side of the Chamber have been beneficiaries. Instead, it is now wanting to privatise the schools and set them up in such a way. Why would we accept an unqualified teacher to teach our children? Would that part of the Chamber accept an unqualified doctor to address the illnesses of their children? That is what that side of the Chamber is saying about the populations out in Manakau—that they do not deserve the best education system, that they do not deserve a public education system, and that we have got to find it for ourselves . . .

    Such was Labour’s opposition to Charter Schools that shortly after the legislation was passed, Labour promised that it “will repeal the legislation allowing the creation of charter schools immediately upon becoming government”. Despite that firm indication of a short lifespan, 35 organisations applied to run a Charter School and, last week, National announced that five of them have been approved. The “market mechanism” experiment to be run upon New Zealand children in the poorest areas of the country is due to start early next year. Among the organisations to be approved is a group called “Rise Up” which is seeking to cater for Pacifika children in South Auckland. Oddly enough, among the “Pillars of Rise Up”, its principal aims and functions, is the statement: “passing on to families evidence-based research and knowledge.“

    Its perhaps not too surprising to learn that the wife of National Party MP Alfred Ngaro, is involved with “Rise Up”. What is surprising is that the Chairperson of Rise Up is Sally Ikinofo, who is also the current Chairperson of Mangere MP Su’a William Sio’s Labour Electorate Committee.

    Not a good look.

    • Rogue Trooper 12.1

      as alluded to in an earlier comment, there are no regulatory barriers apparently to parents from wealthier suburbs herding their own children across town on the Remmers Tractors to participate in these initiatives to address the needs of failing children.

  13. tricledrown 13

    Chooky Oracle built their boat in NZ .
    $350 million spent on building boats in NZ.
    NZ boat industry prior to cup less than $120 million per year now in excess of $2 billion with $1.7 billion in exports.
    Rugby got between $1 and 2 billion in funding for stadiums and publicity from councils and govt.
    For a very small return 1 to 2 percent increase in visitor numbers.

    • Dem Young Sconies 13.1

      The NZ boat industry could wither and die and I would’t care less. One bunch of rich wankers building playthings for other richer wankers. Meh – pass on that. Agree though that the government shouldn’t be pouring cash into the coffers of the NZRFU.

      • Colonial Viper 13.1.1

        That’s a ridiculous attitude. Advanced technology, trades specialists and intellectual property wrapped in a very successful commercial application is critical for the future of this nation.

        • Dem Young Sconies

          Those resources would be better used to develop green energy technologies. We can have advanced technology without pandering to the mining, or rich-man-toy sectors.

          • Daveosaurus

            Green energy technologies? Like, for example, sail and wind power?

            … Oops.

            • Dem Young Sconies


              Very droll.

              I don’t have an issue with sail and wind technology. I just don’t agree with the wasteful use of resources by directing the activity to the benefit of the 1%, and not wider society.

            • Chooky

              Daveosaurus ….+1

          • Colonial Viper

            We can have advanced technology without pandering to the mining, or rich-man-toy sectors.

            I have no idea what you are on about, but whatever it is I don’t think it is workable.

            • Dem Young Sconies

              Bunny McDiarmid from Greenpeace laid out a compelling case on The Nation the other week for abandoning fossil fuel extraction and instead directing those resources into the production of clean, renewable energy.

              The Green’s also have a solid policy to develop clean, green technologies, and export them to the world.

              • Colonial Viper

                You can’t arbitrarily “redirect” those resources from fossil fuel extraction…because those resources belong to the fossil fuels industry. And they aren’t likely to co-operate.

          • Greywarbler

            Dem Ideas and CV
            I was thinking this morning that it would be great if the vision and finance could be found to get good old boys putting all their expertise into developing new technology for sea transport rather than running races for sport. Using their expertise for grown up purposes such as good trials of modern technology for shifting cargo and people using wind, wave energy, magnetic pulses or whatever clever stuff that has been invented and is reasonably clean and sustainable. Not nuclear for one.

            There have been boats or ships that use light metal sails, possibly aluminium, that could use our production here, and these ‘sails’ are like plane wings erected vertically that can swivel to catch the wind. Could we raise money for a sort of noble prize for doing something useful – an ‘auld mug’ that carries cachet. This would be something to get excited about for all the young things caught up in the wash of glamour and conspicuous consumption here at present.

            And pardon my ignorance CV but what’s JMG?

            • Colonial Viper

              John Michael Greer, archdruid and author of “The Long Descent” and many other books dealing with issues of a civilisation not facing up to the consequences of cultural and fossil fuel depletion.

              His blog can be found here


              I suggest reading all the entries from say 2011 onwards. It is amazing, paradigm breaking, eye opening.

            • KJT

              Actually, the technology for the, admittedly small, amount of commercial sail was developed by racing yachts.

              Big technology advances usually result from either racing, or, war!

              Some of the breakthroughs from the Americas cup in high speed boats will be used by naval architects in both commercial sailing vessels and more fuel efficient power boats.

              • Greywarbler

                What do we want? We want it now! ‘Will be’ sounds a bit distant. But it could be happening and it’s not filtering through to me. I live in hope that these new commercial boats will soon be seen. And allowing for passengers in a new Fairstar and Fairsky. Do any oldies remember them?

            • karol

              Yep. Sailboat transport is an oldie and a goodie. Once there was a time when sailing up and down the coast of NZ was the main way to get about these shaky islands

          • Foreign Waka


          • KJT

            I always thought sailing was a green technology.

            Contrary to the rather inverse snobbery that thinks sailing is a rich white mans sport, it is actually about the cheapest sport in NZ to get into. Roll up at a yacht club on race day and ask if any keel boat skippers want any rail meat.

            My crew of working class rednecks, including me, are glued to the races.

            Note, the millionaires are not even allowed on the boats when they are racing.
            It is the ordinary sailors, us spectators, and builders who are having all the fun.

            Introduced students, the ones that were interested, when I was teaching at a decile one school, to both sailing and ski-ing. The respective clubs were very supportive of getting some more young people into their sports. The fact the kids were brown and poor did not stop the club members from being extremely encouraging.. On the children’s part they were surprised to find how easy and cheap it was to participate in sports that they thought were only for rich people. Less than the cost of rugby boots, in fact!

            I get a bit miffed by the sort of intellectual superiority complex that considers sport beneath notice.

            AND. As someone else said, sailing and boat building are essential skills for a sustainable future.

            • karol

              I get a bit miffed by the sort of intellectual superiority complex that considers sport beneath notice.

              Oh, please.

              Professional sport gets way more attention in our MSM than it warrants. And sport is followed by people of diverse backgrounds and formal “intellectual” education.

              I grew up in a middle class, sports dominated household.

              I always enjoyed playing sport for fun an leisure. And I enjoyed messing about in rowboats and an occasional sailboat when I was growing up.

              But the whole professionalisation of sport, and the appropriation of it by the corporate world is a major turn off.

              In the last couple of weeks I’ve watched some rugby and netball and a small amount of tennis on the TV – not something I make much of a big deal about.

              But the whole over-kill of the America’s Cup by our MSM is something I have avoided.

              The “intellectual snobbery” defense is way off the mark.

            • McFlock

              Was about to talk about the difference between America;s Cup level sport and p-class yachties being similar to F1 vs local rally derby, but Karol made a similar point in another thread.

              edit: double-lols that Karol beat me to it here 🙂

        • Rogue Trooper

          and One-Tons, don’t forget the Wontons. 😀

        • marty mars

          lol – you need a dose of JMG cv cos it sounds like you’ve caught the ‘progress’ disease.

        • Chooky

          @ CV (……..+1

      • fender 13.1.2

        “The NZ boat industry could wither and die and I would’t [sic] care less. One bunch of rich wankers building playthings for other richer wankers.”

        Get a grip, it’s called an industry, manufacturing things that people want ffs. There are jobs and prosperity in manufacturing.

      • Greywarbler 13.1.3

        Dem Wot?
        i seem to recall the same sentiments about our boat industry etc. before here. Was it you I wonder? Are you and others trooling for reaction?

      • tricledrown 13.1.4

        Dem I have studied a lot of economics!
        The way forward for countries like ours is to become niche Manufacturers we are leading the world in design build software sailing etc!
        we can’t make cars trains plains mass produced anything cheaper than the developing world!
        So where are the jobs coming from in your utopia!
        If we could target another 20 to 100 niche markets we would-not have to pin our future on primary production which could fall over anytime more people coming here more goods traded bio-security incursions drought could damage any area of our primary industry.
        Aging population younger members of with no jobs that will place a bigger burden on those who work!
        So they will vote tea party policies in !
        I also play chess you have to think ahead scony!
        We need a proactive govt that puts money in to Identify Job growth Areas and make sure we train our young ones up to take advantage of good paying jobs!
        We on the left are in election mode !
        Just over 1 year to the election.
        We Don’t need to give Nactional to much ammunition.
        I have also studied political science as well, We on the left need to get those 800,000 out to vote!
        We don’t need to give the mainstream media any Ideas that we will go hard left.
        The average new Zealander has been hoodwinked by a very slick team!
        We need more unity on the left just until the election is over!

    • Chooky 13.2

      @trickledown…+100…..your arguments clinch it

      ….didnt know Oracle was built in NZ!….even better …Yus ! to NZ boat industry!….also it is fantastic watching the NZ sailors and yacht racing

  14. Greywarbler 14

    Piece between 11am to noon on Chris Laidlaw this a.m. about the surprising and upsetting lack of full reports about Depleted Uranium results in Iraq. The small report, with a delay from original timetable by months if not years, issued from WHO authored by Anonymous, indicating no appreciable bad effects, with no or little stats or information as to where the enquiries and research done is shocking responsible people who have worked for the UN and have knowledge of the problem. There was a deduction that any study has been carried out in the area that received little DU which I think they said was the south. There was mention of white phosphorus too.

    In Saddam Hussein’s day, I think the speaker said – and I can’t recall the name you will have to look it up yourself on Sunday Morning – there weren’t the chemicals that have now shown up, and the belief is that they all emanated from the west and were transported to their destination by the west.

    It sounds like the report we have just received from the Department of Conservation here which is similarly short, low in information and aimed at skimming over the surface of unattractive facts not helpful to the prevailing power. Is this the way our world is going?

    • blue leopard (Get Lost GCSB Bill) 14.1

      Thanks for the info Greywarbler.

      What a whitewash, covering up the real terrorism in this world. More nails in the coffin of the international laws protecting us from the big boys’ wanton destructiveness.

    • Morrissey 14.2

      In Saddam Hussein’s day, I think the speaker said – and I can’t recall the name you will have to look it up

      It was Hans Von Sponeck. He is one of the most articulate and principled men in the world. He is very much a public intellectual, who has the courage to speak plainly—like Ralph Nader, Daniel Ellsberg, Noam Chomsky, Norman Finkelstein, Julian Assange and our own Professor Lloyd Geering.

      As with those guys, that’s why Hans Von Sponeck is dangerous. He’s brilliant, a great speaker and interesting—that’s why you hardly hear or see him speak on the media.

      • Greywarbler 14.2.1

        He sounded like a very straight talking man who would tell it like it is. And named the USAS as not being squeaky cklean. Surprise.

        So I’ll take it that it was Hans Von Sponeck if you say so. He reminds me of the principled guy Dag Hammarskjold Sedish who got shot down by hostiles when flying over Africa trying to bring stability and agreement to some area.

        • ghostrider888

          I have a small collection of writings in one paper-back by Dag_Hammarskjold; have not read it, looks quite hard going, like Laurens Van Der Post. try Teilhard de Chardin, a bit dated now yet interesting. 😎

      • ghostrider888 14.2.2

        Noosphere , yet
        always the Rehabilitation

        well, that’s a days balance of roles; better than a poke in the side with a pointy stick!
        (thanks Lynn). 😎

  15. Greywarbler 15

    I went on to some of the links given above by Rogue, fender etc. showing Clockwork Orange connections and now my fonts have changed and the links are brighter and lots of things are underlined. Just saying. This may not make any difference except I don’t understand how it happened.

  16. joe90 16

    The new Tsar…

    If, as is widely expected, the parliament’s upper house and Russian President Vladimir Putin approve the law, the 436 institutes and 45,000 research staff of Russia’s primary basic-research organization will be managed by a newly established federal agency that reports directly to Putin. The agency will manage the academy’s 60-billion-rouble (US$1.9-billion) budget and extensive property portfolio, which includes lucrative sites in Moscow and St Petersburg, and will also have a say in the appointment of institute directors.


  17. Morrissey 17

    Hans Von Sponeck calls the U.S. regime “criminal”
    —nervous radio host agrees but is loath to agree publicly

    Sunday Morning with Chris Laidlaw, Radio NZ National, 22 September 2013

    Another excellent discussion, this time about the use of depleted uranium in Iraq, and the pressure applied by the United States on the World Health Organization to suppress the results of its investigations into the effects on the local people. Right at the end, this revealing little exchange occurred….

    CHRIS LAIDLAW: It’s rather ironic, isn’t it, considering all the fuss they made about WMDs.

    HANS VON SPONECK: I don’t think “ironic” is the right word to use in this case.

    CHRIS LAIDLAW: Hrrrumph. Errr, what would you say?

    HANS VON SPONECK: I would call it criminal.

    CHRIS LAIDLAW: Hrrrumph. You said it! Hans Von Sponeck, thank you very much for speaking with us. I agree with everything he just said.

    So he knows it’s true, but he dares not say it. He’s quite happy to endorse someone else who says it, but he will not come out and say it by himself. Chris Laidlaw is an intelligent and sensitive broadcaster, but he is obviously wary of saying anything “controversial”. That’s a technical term, meaning “reminding people of any unsettling fact that might lead to a political row.” Hans Von Sponeck’s plain speaking and Laidlaw’s nervous response are very similar to what happened on another Radio NZ National show, The Panel, a few weeks ago, after Steve McCabe forgot to follow the unwritten house rules and insensitively mentioned that the United States used chemical weapons in its war on Vietnam. Host Jim Mora, obviously spooked, moved quickly to isolate the rogue truth-teller…

    Open mike 03/09/2013

    It is quite acceptable to repeat wild al-Qaeda/U.S. regime assertions that the Syrian government, rather than the U.S.-backed al-Qaeda “insurgents”, used sarin gas, but it is clearly not acceptable to repeat incontrovertible facts about a regime that deployed chemical weapons against civilians in a third world country, on a massive scale, for a decade.

    By the way, anyone looking for a bit of grim Sunday afternoon laughter/horror might like to have a browse of this site, which claims the U.S. used chemical weapons “to protect and save the lives of U.S. and allied soldiers.” …..

  18. gobsmacked 18

    TVNZ poll out tonight (6 pm).

    Previous numbers from same pollsters (Colmar Brunton), end of July –

    National 46%
    Labour 33%
    Green 14%

    Prediction … margin of error changes, maybe 2 points from Greens to Labour, maybe 1 or 2 off National. That’ll do for now.

    By April next year, Labour will be 40% +, and Lab/Grn 50% +. (And that’s just in the polls, the voters are consistently less “National” in real elections).

    *bookmarks thread*

    • Colonial Viper 18.1

      Where did you find the early numbers? Labour only need to be consistently high 30% range to walk away with the elections…assuming that the Greens can stay around 11%-14% at the actual polls.

      • gobsmacked 18.1.1

        The previous poll …


        For added amusement, scroll down to read Corin Dann’s analysis of Shearer’s position. He gets paid for this?

        • karol

          Well there seems to be some stats on the latest Colmar Brunton on Leadership. Cunliffe up 10, Key up 1:

          “Male, pale, but not stale”

          • newsense

            I love the different takes between TVNZ, Stuff and NZ Herald on this:

            The story is Cunliffe has gone up ten points in one week to 12 behind Key the long serving incumbent on 42. Spot who doesn’t mention the story in their headline.

            Stuff: Cunliffe up, but behind Pm in poll

            TVNZ: Cunliffe debuts strongly in poll

            NZ Herald: PM popularity: Key still well ahead

          • Mary

            David Cunliffe needs to stop all that stupid talk like “we might be male, pale but we’re not stale” rubbish. I thought Shane Jones was the only one capable of saying such idiotic things. Cunliffe’s trying to be too slick. He just needs to relax and say it how it is, which he does do, but without all this silly Jones-like talk-in-riddles rubbish. It’s just horrible.

            • Colonial Viper

              Mary. You just have to realise that Cunliffe is delivering what the media want in order to get the Labour message through. Is it sometimes going to be a bit kitsch? Yeah, around the edges. But at its centre its going to be very worthwhile.

              • xtasy

                I am very much hoping that this is the Cunliffe agenda, and that the progressive policies will follow, after the mainstream media have been “won”. But knowing the MSM, I fear they will do all to find fault with David and Labour, to rubbish all prospective policies.

                NEVER, NEVER, ever trust the MSM! They are owned by the corporates, that is most of them, and they have NO interest in more social participation or inclusiveness, get real, please, CV.

    • tricledrown 18.2

      National only have to loose 1 or 2 seats and its over!

  19. Rogue Trooper 19

    From Russia, Love and Hate
    (with squiggly line pictures).

    • ak 22.1

      Pre-Davidian, standard Brolmar bias, >70% refusal rate, landlines only, = Left ahead 7-10% and growing.

    • North 22.2

      Whatever. Things are on the change. Everyone knows that. ShonKey Python’s a gone burger. Betcha Judge Judy knows that one too.

  20. big brother and the screw u co 23

    Has Key ever done anything that hasnt swelled his ego and bank acc
    Not Bloody Likely
    So why is the bastard even alive let alone PM
    People who make the fortune out of being nothing more than leeches on society by making money out of money for the sake of their own salvation are little different from drug dealers and by the way he is selling out this country his morality is as bad
    Do you feel a loss of integrity in being a NZer
    I do since the prick has been PM
    We can do a lot better than Key and his govt

  21. North 24

    Love your styles big brother @ 23. Straight to the essence of this fiasco of governance.

  22. lprent 25

    Hey what do you know! Pete George is :-

    a. A candidate for the mayor in Dunedin

    b. Received 12 downvotes and 5 upvotes for mentioning his ODT profile on the sewer (they are more sensible than I thought)

    c. Finally got a post out that doesn’t obsess over The Standard.Of course we’ll never know what the ODT reporter cut.

    I was wondering about (actually more like enjoying) the lack of links from yournz over past weeks showing up in auto-spam. Usually there are many every week. But now they have finally died down to one every few weeks. I was wondering if he’d finally gotten over his pathetic obsessions.

    But there was a referral from a comment in kiwblog, and that was the first comment in the post – Pete George having a warm flush over being mentioned in the local rag.

    But I’ll give everyone an positive incentive (because he likes those) to vote for him. Also because I’m generous, quite self-interested, and haven’t lived in Dunedin since 1989.

    Just think – if he becomes mayor (or even sits on the council) for Dunedin he may leave the blogosphere alone. Now this may only be an incentive for people not resident in Dunedin, but maybe he’ll get the student vote. They don’t pay rates directly, kind of mostly live in the enclave in Dunedin North, many escape every summer, and they read blogs much more often than those who do pay rates directly. And they have a vote in the local body elections. They should strike a deal with PG – they will vote for him provided he stays off the blogs and out of Dunedin North.

    I mean it would be hard luck for r0b and Bill. But think of how much of a godsend it’d be for the majority of bloggers, commenters, and lurkers outside of Dunedin. 😈

    Yep. You read it here – an endorsement. Vote for PG because if he is locked into Dunedin local politics then bloggers throughout the land and overseas will be able to blog without “Mr Droning Whilst Sitting On The Fence” – Pete George. Besides, he has a face just made for the ODT – sort of a lean and hungry vampire.

    Too late – time to stop working on this knotty problem and to head off for some sleep. I know that I’m overworking when I endorse Pete George for any political post. But I’m sure that in the morning PG will carefully and very selectively quote this “endorsement” as he lies about this comments content. That appears to be his usual technique.

    • Colonial Viper 25.1


    • risildowgtn 25.2

      hah was watching POLTERGEIST in the weekend

      There isnt much diff between PG and Rev Kane.

      PG is an idiot.Turning up everywhere in Dunners …

      No one takes him seriously …..

  23. xtasy 26

    German “Labour” (SPD) stuffed up and landed at around 26 per cent of the general vote today, and abysmal showing. But it is no surprise, as they followed the Blairite Ideology, also presented by Goff and Shearer here in NZ. It is a stuffed agenda, and they deserved what they got.

    Third largest party in Germany is now “THE LEFT PARTY”, yes ahead of the Greens there now, and that is encouraging.

    People all over the world are waking up to the crap that we have been served for too long, neoliberal, neo capitalist agendas, achieving nothing but the bottom to top “trickle” of incomes and wealth.

    I am looking forward to some deep soul searching and heads to roll in the SPD in Germany as they have failed abysmally in the general elections, leaving Merckel to get another term, possibly even in a “grand coalition”, what a disgrace that is.

    Viva la revolution!

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