Open mike 23/08/2019

110 comments on “Open mike 23/08/2019”

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1. phillip ure 1

   23 August 2019 at 7:18 am

   (have an early listen to the insight program that will will be broadcast on sun-morn..)

   https://www.rnz.co.nz/national/programmes/insight/audio/2018709853/milk-shake-why-the-future-of-dairy-looks-scary

   'Dairy's huge role earning export dollars for New Zealand is facing a threat some say could bring it to its knees. Lab-grown milk protein is now stepping outside niche cheese and ice cream markets and into the bulk ingredient arena.'
   • The Al1en 1.1

     23 August 2019 at 7:39 am

     Yeah, you said the same things about the death of dairy years ago on here. You never would give a time frame for collapse, and it hasn't happened yet.

     I guess, like paul/ed/milly and their impending coming global recession, if you keep repeating yourself you'll luck into one sometime.
     • Sacha 1.1.1

       23 August 2019 at 8:03 am

       Industrial protein alternatives are a more plausible threat to dairying than vegans ever could be. However there will always be a niche for 'heritage' cheese, etc.
     • phillip ure 1.1.2

       23 August 2019 at 8:38 am

       @ allen..

       'Yeah, you said the same things about the death of dairy years ago on here. You never would give a time frame for collapse, and it hasn't happened yet.'

       you are correct that a couple of years ago i gave repeated heads-up! on this..and i said it would be here in a couple of years….(and was generally scoffed at..)

       you are now one of the few still left scoffing..?

       does that at all give you pause for thought/a scoff re-think..?

       'cos allen – it's here…eh..?
       • The Al1en 1.1.2.1

         23 August 2019 at 8:48 am

         Big dairy is very much alive. Once again you're confusing wishful thinking with fact. 

         There will be a time when the industry declines, primarily I suspect to climate change and the environmental cost of exporting milk powder and added value products off shore, but there will always be a willing local market for milk and meat, and reduction in farm numbers and resulting smaller herds will feed that market with a reduced emissions footprint.

         No need for fake foods at all, even when the export bubble is forced to burst.
         • Incognito 1.1.2.1.1

           23 August 2019 at 8:58 am

           Once again you’re confusing wishful thinking with fact.

           You read my mind. When people predict the demise of someone or something more often than not there is a huge element of wishful thinking even though they may not realise or admit it. Very few doom’s day scenarios are based on scientific predictions (models) and most contain a huge bias, which can be personal but also a collective bias (i.e. shared by many, e.g. peers).
           • phillip ure 1.1.2.1.1.1

             23 August 2019 at 9:26 am

             @ allen + incognito..

             i would contest ur contention that i am just engaging in 'wishful thinking'

             i have always known the world was not going to wake up one day and decide to go vegan..(my 'wishful' vegan thought)..

             and that reality was for me for quite a long time quite depressing..

             so the arrival of plant-based meats/milk (indistinguishable in taste/texture from animal-based) got me very excited – and since then i have just been watching it unfolding..

             and my excitement is not based on wishful-thinking…but on economic forces..

             when you have a product that tastes/smells/chews just like the highest quality of the real thing – that is not fucking the planet – is cheaper..is cruelty-free..

             and is sitting on the supermarket shelve/(in burgers/in pizzas)..

             then the consumer is going to have to choose to pay more for an environment-fucking product – that also guarantees animals have suffered..

             these are the reasons/economic-forces (not wishful thinking) – why i think the dairy/animal-extraction industries..

             are sunset industries..are going down the gurgler..
             • The Al1en …

               23 August 2019 at 9:42 am

               See you in a couple of years when the mass crates of affordable natural milk and shelves of meat, cheese, yoghurt and other dairy products are still plentiful, and you can try again with the wishful thinking death of dairy is nigh meme. You never know, next time you might be right. lol
               • phillip ure …

                 23 August 2019 at 9:48 am

                 ok..and to be clear – it is not just dairy..it is all the animal extraction industries..

                 all 'meats' will be available – with no need  for any animals to suffer..

                 that is my wishful thinking..and it is coming to pass..
                 • The Al1en …

                   23 August 2019 at 10:02 am

                   To be clearer, fake meats may well be available in the future, but if no one wants to eat them, they won't be viable or around for long.

                   As long as real meat is for sale at an affordable price, which it will be if export sales collapse and consumers are not paying offshore prices in the local marketplace and the supermarket chains screw the remaining sellers down, people will eat it without nary a second thought about the animal extraction industry.
                   • phillip ure …

                     23 August 2019 at 4:58 pm

                     ah well..!..one of us will be right..
             • Dukeofurl …

               23 August 2019 at 9:48 am

               You are ignoring the elephant in the paddy field

               "At between 50 and 100 million tonnes of methane a year, rice agriculture is a big source of atmospheric methane, possibly the biggest of man-made methane sources."

               Is rice farming a sunset industry as well?

               http://www.ghgonline.org/methanerice.htm
               • phillip ure …

                 23 August 2019 at 9:54 am

                 @ duke..

                 i think you need to read the final paragraph in yr link..

                 there you will find the solutions to rice-methane listed..

                 so no..i don't think rice farming is a sunset industry..
                 • Dukeofurl …

                   23 August 2019 at 4:04 pm

                   And solutions arent being considered for dairying , a minor product in  pantheon of agriculture ?

                   eg US has about 95 mill cattle with only 10% dairy cows.

                   Also to be considered is 

                   Carbon is the backbone of life on Earth. We are made of carbon, we eat carbon, and our civilizations—our economies, our homes, our means of transport—are built on carbon. 

                   Human emissions, which have become a problem are  a fraction of the natural cycle

                   https://earthobservatory.nasa.gov/ContentFeature/CarbonCycle/images/carbon_cycle.jpg

                   https://earthobservatory.nasa.gov/features/CarbonCycle

                   Venus is no life at all but has a runaway carbon cycle
                   • Poission …

                     23 August 2019 at 4:27 pm

                     An absence of Venutians,and (biological feedback) does lead to increased forcing,whereas with biology it withers under weather.

                     https://www.nature.com/articles/340457a0
             • Incognito …

               23 August 2019 at 5:15 pm

               Sigh

               My comment was in response to The Al1en @ 1.1.2.1. and neither person-specific nor content- or topic-specific. In other words, it was not about you, veganism, or whatever …

               Given that you have shown repeatedly that you are not interested in engaging in genuine debate it is an exercise in futility to engage with you on any of your strongly felt topics.

               One look at your comment @ 1.1.2.1.1.1. confirms that you don’t acknowledge your bias and emotional attachment to the issue at hand as wishful thinking. Of course, it is all about “reasons/economic-forces”. Yeah, right.
               • The Al1en …

                 23 August 2019 at 6:09 pm

                 Wishful thinking based on severely impacted emotional reasoning.

                 When people like PU deliberately won't even correctly address you by your given login, you know they're on shaky ground to start with. It's a dead give away.
                 • marty mars …

                   23 August 2019 at 6:35 pm

                   lol sure allen – you said, "Wishful thinking based on severely impacted emotional reasoning."

                   Phil said this, "ok..and to be clear – it is not just dairy..it is all the animal extraction industries..

                   all 'meats' will be available – with no need  for any animals to suffer..

                   that is my wishful thinking..and it is coming to pass.."

                   Your whole argument is emotional imo AND basically you seem to be implying that you are into animal suffering – you think that that is fine do you? It is NOT emotional dissonance or "severely impacted emotional reasoning" that leads people to not want animals to suffer it is the opposite.
                   • The Al1en …

                     23 August 2019 at 7:05 pm

                     I dispute your assumption my argument is emotionally driven, PU's isn't, and I am "into" animal suffering.

                     However, I do accept animals are killed to provide all the meat I eat, and even do it myself with wild rabbits. The anti cruelty angle isn't one I can be shamed with, though of course, try all you like. 
                   • McFlock …

                     23 August 2019 at 7:26 pm

                     The wishful thinking bit is the "is coming to pass".

                     There are some interesting small-scale advances in a couple of areas. This is a massiveloy different proposition from being on the cusp of the commercial unviability of all livestock-related industries because of plant-based products that are indistinguishable and cheaper.

                     Maybe in 50 or a hundred years scotch fillet will be plant based. Even then punters will shell out for wagyu beef.
                   • marty mars …

                     23 August 2019 at 7:36 pm

                     if you say,"Wishful thinking based on severely impacted emotional reasoning" about wanting to reduce animal suffering then you are being emotional imo – if not what is it? PU is being emotional too – it's cool – humans decide emotionally and justify with reason, afterwards, in my vast and wide experience.

                     Not trying to shame you – I don't really care what you put in your mouth but I do care about fairness and your argument slips on that regard imo especially the dissing of someone wanting to reduce animal suffering. That's it from me on it – I've made my point and I don't care to argue about nothing.
                     edit @ mcflock – not sure if severely impacted emotional reasoning applies to ‘coming to pass’ – that would be a full excessive response from TA which would be even harder to call non emotional.
                   • McFlock …

                     23 August 2019 at 8:15 pm

                     lol I suspect that depends on just how far one assesses phil's statement as going into "wishful thinking" territory.

                     If it's just a little bit optimistic, meh.

                     Optimistic to the point of wildly inaccurate? certainly an impaired assessment for whatever reason.
                   • The Al1en …

                     23 August 2019 at 8:16 pm

                     The severe impacted emotional reasoning is all through the arguments put forward today, and other times, and whilst that is up to him to do that, it is surely there. He can't even say a certified free range egg is okay to eat. That's not a winnable argument from the perspective of well treatment of animals, that's entirely overly emotive over the substance.

                     It's confusing wishful thinking with fact, again, to re-state the coming death of the NZ dairy industry because of the linked report to start up labs in the u.s. I could say flying vehicles will be the end of the car industry based on the research work of some company, somewhere, if I found a sliver of supporting to put forward, but it would, of course, likewise be wishful thinking.

                     I have argued the industry won't die, certainly on a local level, even with restrictions due to climate change. Sure, time will tell how it all works out, yet so far it's an unchallenged counter point with only 'meat is murder' and 'you're into animal suffering' given back. Now what's that about emotional and excessive?
                   • marty mars …

                     23 August 2019 at 8:25 pm

                     yeah nah – reducing animal suffering – yes or no? If possible – if you could, would you?

                     If yes, why? 

                     If no, yuck

                     your call 
                   • The Al1en …

                     23 August 2019 at 8:34 pm

                     Sure, all for stopping ill treatment of anyone or anything, person or animal, but if you equate slaughtering an animal to eat as animal suffering, then we're poles apart. The .22 pellets that goes through the head and clean kill rabbits aren't animal suffering, certainly not like giving them mixomatosis anyway.

                     The death of the animal is ultimately the end game, and as a meat eater, I'm okay with it.
                   • phillip ure …

                     23 August 2019 at 8:51 pm

                     @mcflock..

                     'Maybe in 50 or a hundred years scotch fillet will be plant based. Even then punters will shell out for wagyu beef.'

                     the scotch fillet is already here – and plant-based 'wagyu beef' will be here soon enough..

                     and way before 50-100 yrs..
                   • Descendant Of Smith …

                     23 August 2019 at 8:56 pm

                     "massiveloy"

                     My brain keeps reading that as "saveloy"
                   • McFlock …

                     23 August 2019 at 10:22 pm

                     the scotch fillet is already here

                     Must have been in a different aisle when I was at supermarket yesterday.
                 • Incognito …

                   23 August 2019 at 6:41 pm

                   I know what you’re saying. I tried in vain recently but the nonsensical ‘arguments’ that were put forth showed it was only ever going to be an enormous waste of (my) time. Interestingly, commenters like PU seem to relish these exchanges so they must be getting/gaining something from it …
                   • The Al1en …

                     23 August 2019 at 7:06 pm

                     Yeah, I recall years past, and their game playing. 
                   • phillip ure …

                     23 August 2019 at 8:24 pm

                     @ incognito..+ allen..

                     i do not 'relish' people pouring abuse on me – 'cos they find my arguments/ideas challenging..

                     and readers can decide if my four decades of fighting this cause – are some 'game' that i am playing..

                     and this is the general debate thread – the heading of which says:

                     ''Open mike is your post.

                     For announcements, general discussion, whatever you choose'.

                     does that still apply..?

                     and does it apply to me..?
                   • Incognito []

                     23 August 2019 at 9:49 pm

                     I suppose I have to ask what do you get from it if it is abuse because they don’t get your arguments/ideas?

                     Who said you were playing games?

                     I’d put it to you that reap what you sow ..

                     I’d also suggest to you that the challenge is due, in large part, to your style of communication ..

                     Why do you ask about OM and whether “that” (?) or “it” (?) still (?) applies (?) to you if you already know the answer?

                     Here is a question for you: how many times have you and I discussed veganism or killing animals for mass consumption?
                   • phillip ure …

                     23 August 2019 at 10:14 pm

                     @ incognito..

                     'suppose I have to ask what do you get from it if it is abuse because they don’t get your arguments/ideas?'

                     sorry – i can't make sense of that – could you try again..

                     'Who said you were playing games?'

                     allen..

                     'I’d put it to you that reap what you sow'

                     cd u plse explain what that means..what am i 'sow'-ing (sic)..?

                     'I’d also suggest to you that the challenge is due, in large part, to your style of communication'

                     do you mean my disdain for the false honorific – the capital letter..?..

                     'Why do you ask about OM and whether “that” (?) or “it” (?) still (?) applies (?) to you if you already know the answer?'

                     i am puzzled as to why you seem to be so much on my case ?

                     'Here is a question for you: how many times have you and I discussed veganism or killing animals for mass consumption?'

                     i wouldn't have a clue..

                     and here is a question for you..

                     once again tonite you have accused me of not debating 'in good faith'

                     could i plse have a definition of what debating 'in good faith' is..?

                     or perhaps more relevant – (seeing it is what i am being constantly accused of)

                     cd you plse tell me what are the markers of not debating 'in good faith'..?

                     what constitutes such a judgement being made..?

                     'cos i most certainly believe in the arguments/ideas i am promoting..

                     i am not trading insults…

                     i am attempting to answer (in a civil manner) any questions asked..

                     so what am i doing (or not doing) that causes you to repeatedly accuse me of not debating 'in good faith'..

                     thank you..
                   • Incognito []

                     24 August 2019 at 10:07 pm

                     I hope I’m not wasting my time and your questions were genuine and in good faith.

                     It’s quite simple, if you don’t relish the abuse why do you keep coming back for more and why do you invite more?

                     I think people find your arguments/ideas challenging and your comments inaccessible because the way you present them, the style, the form & format, the words, the grammar, the punctuation, et cetera.

                     When you put forward your comments in a certain way, people are more likely to respond in a similar vein (sow – reap).

                     You draw attention to yourself. Don’t want it, don’t do it.

                     The answer to my question is: zero, none, never, not once. Makes you wonder, doesn’t it? But you didn’t have a clue!? And yet I “seem to be so much on [your] case”!?

                     Nope, I didn’t accuse again of not debating in good faith. I said @ 5:15 PM “that you have shown repeatedly that you are not interested in engaging in genuine debate”.

                     You have been a long-term commenter on this platform. Yet, you have to ask what is meant with “debate”!?

                     It can be found at the top of the Policy (https://thestandard.org.nz/policy/#rules):

                     We encourage robust debate and we’re tolerant of dissenting views. But this site run [sic] for reasonably rational debate between dissenting viewpoints and we intend to keep it operating that way.

                     The qualifiers “genuine” and “in good faith” are commonly understood terms in the English language I thought. Nevertheless, briefly, they describe debate as honest, respectful, with integrity, open-minded, willing to listen and politely (and patiently) asking for clarification, tolerant, free of prejudice and discrimination, supported by evidence, et cetera. The outcome is not being right vs. wrong or winning vs. losing but finding commonality, better understanding of each other’s viewpoints, increased mutual respect, and in some (rare) cases, a newly found truth (as in understanding of reality). The outcome can also be to agree to disagree. There is no place for fake facts, disingenuous comments, dogmatism and closed-mindedness, for example.

                     You have traded insults in your comments (but not to me). This, to me, shows again a lack of self-awareness of how you behave here, and how you come across.

                     I hope this helps.

                     PS I believe Robert Guyton thinks positively of you, which to me suggests that we might be dealing with a communication issue more than anything.
                   • The Al1en …

                     23 August 2019 at 10:24 pm

                     You still can't even bring yourself to use my chosen login, that's not only a dishonest approach to engage in debate, for a start, it's a clear example of not in good faith. lol
     • mauī 1.1.3

       23 August 2019 at 5:24 pm

       Lets leave milly out of this. 
2. ScottGN 2

   23 August 2019 at 7:51 am

   It’s starting to look like there is another epic fail by Phil Twyford on the cards. In a rather odd press release yesterday he confirmed that for the first time the NZTA has been thrust into a competitive tender process against an unsolicited bid from the NZ Super Fund and its French Canadian partners to build and run the city to Mangere light rail project in Auckland.
   So Labour’s flagship transport policy which Ardern promised at the last election would be finished by 2025 is further delayed. By the time the country goes to the polls again next year it seems likely that completely zero progress will have been made with this project, (there was also a northwestern light rail project planned too but we know the Super Fund aren’t interested in that so it appears to have been shelved). And we can be sure that if the Coalition government is turfed out next year National will move quickly to cancel the planned Auckland ATAP projects and redirect the funding back to RONS including the East-West Link, their disastrous motorway connection which would have destroyed the Onehunga waterfront and had the dubious honour of being the most expensive road ever planned anywhere on the planet.
   If this all falls apart as seems increasingly likely Aucklanders will be living with the results of Twyford’s incompetence for a very long time.
   • Sacha 2.1

     23 August 2019 at 8:07 am

     there was also a northwestern light rail project planned too but we know the Super Fund aren’t interested in that

     Do you have links about that? I always understood it was considered more viable as a package deal with the Mangere line.
     • Dukeofurl 2.1.1

       23 August 2019 at 9:29 am

       Those private finance initiatives are financial hell holes for the taxpayer. Especially when the light rail  vehicle builder Bombardier is the canadian side of things. They will inflate the cost of the trams rather than source through competitive tender.

       These sort of projects are always very involved as huge investigations need to happen first.

       Personally the distruption along Dominion Rd isnt worth it building a traditional centre of the road tracks.

       Articulated guided buses are a far better option,   as  trams with tyres and electric powered.
       • Climaction 2.1.1.1

         23 August 2019 at 2:02 pm

         Why don’t they just make one lane of the highways in each direction bus only 24/7? Electric buses, less cars and no outrageous investment in cash and energy for essentially fixed capacity services. 

         Short term unionist thinking makes train sets the default desire, but it isn’t what is best for this planet
         • Sacha 2.1.1.1.1

           24 August 2019 at 1:23 am

           I agree it makes sense to convert a lane of the NW motorway to bus-only right now, while we wait for the full connection to be built.

           Trains can carry more people per hour per metre of lane space than buses or cars – a crucial factor for peak services in built-up environments. Trams also out-perform buses and cars.

           Steel wheels on rails are way more energy efficient than rubber on asphalt, so even electric buses are more carbon-intensive than electric trains or trams. That's a long-term proposition.

           There are more members of bus unions than train ones. I do not know what you are on about there.
     • ScottGN 2.1.2

       23 August 2019 at 10:59 am

       Twyford himself has said quite recently that the northwestern light rail plans may need to be scaled back. 

       Personally I think they should just get on with the original plans for a busway from the northwest to the city. We’ve seen how transformative the Northern Express has been for public transport users on the Shore. And it’s relatively easy and cheap to convert dedicated busways to light rail at a later date.
       • Sacha 2.1.2.1

         24 August 2019 at 1:26 am

         Biggest problem with building a busway first then converting to light rail later is having to close the whole thing for a couple of years during the changeover. As we will find out with the Northern one sometime..
         • ScottGN 2.1.2.1.1

           24 August 2019 at 7:37 am

           There would be no need whatsoever to close the northern busway while it’s transitioned to LRT. Starting at the city end you’d build the city terminus, lines and stations plus the 2nd harbour crossing (hopefully a cable stayed bridge) and the spur line to Takapuna – busway services run as normal while done. Then the rest of the network can be done in stages with the busway using the motorway at whichever station is being worked on. Meanwhile services have commenced on the new Takapuna to city. LRT. It’s not fucking rocket science.

           We Aucklanders like to think we’re in the same league as Sydney and Melbourne but the reality with public transport in this city is that we aren’t even keeping up with fucking Canberra.
   • Ad 2.2

     23 August 2019 at 9:42 am

     Light rail is on it's way to becoming the biggest government procurement disaster since the Aramoana smelter.

     NZTA actively undermined by NZSuperfund for nearly two years.

     Minister well past due to smack heads.
     • Dukeofurl 2.2.1

       23 August 2019 at 9:49 am

       You are believing journalist hyberbole like you always do.
       • ScottGN 2.2.1.1

         23 August 2019 at 11:09 am

         It’s true that there has been an enormous amount of junk stories written about these projects in the last few years. Anne Gibson’s “Slow Trams” piece in the Herald the other day was almost completely devoid of any facts. 

         However I’m inclined to agree with Ad that, in the Year of Delivery we’re looking at another major fail from the government as a signature policy turns to custard.
       • Ad 2.2.1.2

         23 August 2019 at 2:53 pm

         Twyford has appointed MoT to oversee a procurement contest between NZTA's light rail team, and the NZSuper/Quebec Pension Fund team.

         MoT have no experience in this area.

         Treasury do.

         MoT have also proven themselves to be a totally ineffective regulator of NZTA, and we are still awaiting the Martyn Jenkins into how responsibilities for regulating and enforcing the transport system will be redesigned. 12 months later still waiting ……….

         So there is no reason to be confident in MoT decisionmaking in infrastructure projects which also have an integrated operating model, and are outside PTOM. Also there's no word on how the NZSuper model fits within ATAP, and ATAP is the first time Crown and Auckland ever agreed on transport project priority and funding together.

         If anyone can think of an instance where the country's major infrastructure agency was actively undermined by another agency on a deal this scale, I'd be very interested.

         DPMC should  have been all over this smacking heads a long time ago. There's now going to be a Cabinet decision some time next year. It makes it a very high risk that an election and change of government will kill light rail completely. That is caused by this government's inability to control its own entities.

         Also some chance that Tamihere will come in to rule Auckland and actively oppose it, a risk that would have been managed if the Government had got their shit together.

         So the parallels to Muldoon's Aramoana deal are pretty similar.

         More detail on GreaterAuckland if you want it.

         The sum total of this terms' transport infrastructure delivery will be the motorway jobs around the Waikato that were started by National.
         • Incognito 2.2.1.2.1

           23 August 2019 at 5:01 pm

           Can you please explain why MoT doesn’t have experience in the area of procurement? They certainly feature on GETS (https://www.gets.govt.nz/).

           That is caused by this government's inability to control its own entities. [my italics]

           What do you mean by this? The system is set up to ensure independence from Government interference and to shield operational matters from political meddling.

           Lastly, if this was “an unsolicited bid from the NZ Super Fund and its French Canadian partners” as alleged by ScottGN @ 2 then it cannot be simply ignored and brushed aside as an inconvenience or political nuisance, can it?
     • ScottGN 2.2.2

       23 August 2019 at 11:02 am

       NZTA aren’t exactly blameless either though Ad. In retrospect Twyford’s decision to take the projects off AT and give them to NZTA looks like a major blunder.
       • Ad 2.2.2.1

         23 August 2019 at 4:24 pm

         Agree  NZTA are not blameless.

         And when the get a new permanent CE some time this year, expect yet another top-down restructure, which in turn kills all major things getting done.
3. Buster12 3

   23 August 2019 at 8:23 am

   Kind of agree with the guy on breakfast who said people are making a mountain out of a molehill re the terrorists letter.
   • Sacha 3.1

     23 August 2019 at 8:54 am

     Greg Newbold knows nothing about how white terrorist mass-messaging works. This is not the same as a prisoner who killed someone in a pub brawl and is writing to his nan.
   • phantom snowflake 3.2

     23 August 2019 at 9:22 am

     The best piece I've seen on this topic was by Idiot/Savant over at No Right Turn. Absolutely nailed it.

     https://norightturn.blogspot.com/2019/08/nazis-prisons-and-mail.html
     • Dukeofurl 3.2.1

       23 August 2019 at 9:38 am

       Hes wrong

       "but it is simply illegal." [ to  stop him sending letters]

        S108 Withholding mail

       (1)

       A prison manager may withhold mail between a prisoner and another person if—

       (a)

       the prisoner or the other person asks the manager to do so; or

       (b)

       the other person is under 16 years, and his or her guardian asks the manager to do so; or

       (c)

       the other person is a prisoner, and neither prisoner has first notified the prison manager of his or her intention to correspond; or

       (d)

       it is correspondence that the manager believes on reasonable grounds is likely to—

       (i)

       threaten or intimidate a person to whom it is being sent by the prisoner; or

       (ii)

       endanger the safety or welfare of any person; or

       (iii)

       pose a threat to the security of the prison; or

       (iv)

       promote or encourage the commission of an offence, or involve, or facilitate the commission or possible commission of, an offence; or

       (v)

       prejudice the maintenance of the law (including the prevention, detection, investigation, prosecution, and punishment of offences, and the right to a fair trial); or

       (vi)

       breach an order or direction of any court (for example, a direction given under section 168A (no-contact conditions if family violence offence defendant remanded in custody) of the Criminal Procedure Act 2011) or constitute contempt of court.

        

       Its typical of NRT to have a rant without even reading the Full Corrections Act.  he mentions  S69. Ignores section 108 m which is far broader

       http://www.legislation.govt.nz/act/public/2004/0050/latest/DLM294849.html

       And hes wrong again at the end when he says this terrorist will eventualyl get out of jail.
       hes totally ignorant about the sentence of life without parole. Mudering 51 people , in a place of worship , will certainly attract the maximum
       • phantom snowflake 3.2.1.1

         23 August 2019 at 10:51 am

         Pretty much nope. Idiot/Savant isn't suggesting that withholding mail is never legitimate;

         "Incoming or outgoing mail (or items in it) can be withheld for various reasons, including consent, court orders, and preventing the commission of further offences."

         rather that there are no legal grounds for an instant, blanket ban on all mail for this particular prisoner.

         (Regarding "life without parole"; I'm pretty sure it's a sentence that's never been used in NZ but I agree with you that it's inevitable in this case.)
         • McFlock 3.2.1.1.1

           23 August 2019 at 2:46 pm

           Not so sure about the blanket ban in this case. It's not just what he says, but that it's from him that encourages these jerks/promotes similar acts.

           In his case, it might be currently legal to have a list of authorised contactees who get mail unless there's something explicitly fucked up, and for random weirdos in Russia or wherever it all gets returned to sender. Even a "nice to hear from you, I like cats, too" note from the fucker would end up in a wee shrine on their wall.
         • Dukeofurl 3.2.1.1.2

           23 August 2019 at 3:54 pm

           Blanket ban ?

           you mean this from NRT

           Corrections' immediate response to publicly fucking up is to ban the prisoner from sending or receiving any more mail.

            I remember the head of Corrections saying  every piece of his mail would now come over her desk.

           And the ban , its temporary

           "The man accused of the Christchurch mosque shootings will be blocked from sending or receiving mail pending a review, Corrections' chief executive says.

           NRT doesnt read it properly and calls it "any more mail"

            

           So his story has 3  falsehoods.

           No ban on 'any more mail' its temporary

           Not Illegal, S108  allows various circumstances

           Not ' Will Get out of prison one day', as life without parole is available and NRT doesnt yet know how the  sentence will turnout
           • Dukeofurl 3.2.1.1.2.1

             23 August 2019 at 4:22 pm

             Life without Parole has been used in  relation to  ACTs 3 strikes law.

             https://www.stuff.co.nz/national/crime/108955304/thirdstrike-killer-dylyn-davis-appeals-against-20year-minimum-term

             "A third-strike murderer who avoided life imprisonment without parole, now says even the 20-year minimum term was too long." 

             All prisoners sentenced to 'life' have the parole period set by the judge but its still an option to set no minimum period before parole that isnt a 3rd strike murder case

             Garrett has said there has been a Judge who did set Life without parole, not sure which one and maybe Appeal Court changed it ?

             https://www.stuff.co.nz/national/crime/110729786/crown-seeks-precedentsetting-life-without-parole-sentence-for-paul-russell-wilson
4. Sacha 4

   23 August 2019 at 9:26 am

   @lprent Am getting blocked by Wordfence a lot this morning. Have you changed some settings?
   • Robert Guyton 4.1

     23 August 2019 at 9:30 am

     Me too.
     • Rapunzel 4.1.1

       23 August 2019 at 9:45 am

       Ditto
       • Dukeofurl 4.1.1.1

         23 August 2019 at 9:58 am

         That happened to me last night on a tablet . Ok today on a desktop
       • Anne 4.1.1.2

         23 August 2019 at 10:23 am

         Yesterday too.

         I’m on a desktop. If you persevere you eventually get through. Found it best to click on to post title.
         • Dukeofurl 4.1.1.2.1

           23 August 2019 at 1:02 pm

           The Standard web page is now infested with  cookies from Facebook and Google etc.

           I looked earlier and had to delete a batch , yet on this post isnt any other than  the ones for the Standard

           I have a feeling they are linked to the strange  'fence' blocking
   • The Al1en 4.2

     23 August 2019 at 10:26 am

     Just seen your post after I commented at 6. 

     Can't edit posts either.

     Edit. Can edit now and delete.
   • ianmac 4.3

     23 August 2019 at 1:43 pm

     Me too blocked twice.
   • weka 4.4

     23 August 2019 at 2:12 pm

     Lynn's on it.
   • Jimmy 4.5

     23 August 2019 at 2:13 pm

     me also
5. Sanctuary 5

   23 August 2019 at 10:00 am

   Looks like punctuation is a casualty of decolonisation.

   [TheStandard: A moderator moved this comment to Open Mike as being off topic or irrelevant in the post it was made in. Be more careful in future.]
   

   [mind your manners – weka]
   • The Al1en 5.1

     23 August 2019 at 10:17 am

     My first love was Miss McCabe, my English teacher in secondary school. She was so pretty, I must have stared at her for two three hour lessons per week for a couple of years and learnt nothing. She got married and I was devastated at the time, but I managed to cope and move on.

     Like the first casualty of war but different, she took my grammar, my spelling and my innersents.
6. Puckish Rogue 6

   23 August 2019 at 12:14 pm

   https://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/news/article.cfm?c_id=1&objectid=12261171

   'Veteran National MP and former Cabinet minister Judith Collins will lift the lid on her time in Government in a tell-all book which details some of the most trying times of her political career.'

   Now we'll find out what really happened, happy days 
   • Robert Guyton 6.1

     23 August 2019 at 12:56 pm

     Will you get a mention, Pucky?

     You're her most ardent/deluded fan 
     • Dukeofurl 6.1.1

       23 August 2019 at 3:03 pm

       Collins will dish the dirt on Key, English and Joyce, and maybe a few other of her frenemies in National 

        Puckish may not be  liking that
       • Puckish Rogue 6.1.1.1

         24 August 2019 at 6:51 am

         Anything Jude does is for the greater good so I'll like it no matter what she writes
7. Robert Guyton 7

   23 August 2019 at 1:03 pm

   "The National Party, which generally pulls in more money in donations than other parties, has run more ads than others in recent months, with a fierce campaign against Associate Transport Minister Julie Anne Genter over her proposed "feebate" scheme.

   At one point the party had 14 ads running at once."

   14 facebook ads, attacking Julie Anne Genter.

   https://www.stuff.co.nz/national/politics/115198193/facebook-ads-will-dominate-the-next-election–but-our-politicians-dont-have-to-tell-us-about-them
   • Incognito 7.1

     23 August 2019 at 4:39 pm

     Attacking persons always trumps attacking policies but even better is to do both at once.
8. Chris T 8

   23 August 2019 at 1:37 pm

   Am I the only one that is getting a 503 error and this if I try to look at more than about two articles in a minute?

   "Your access to this site has been limited

   Your access to this service has been temporarily limited. Please try again in a few minutes. (HTTP response code 503)

   Reason: Exceeded the maximum global requests per minute for crawlers or humans."
   • weka 8.1

     23 August 2019 at 2:14 pm

     see above
     • Chris T 8.1.1

       23 August 2019 at 2:45 pm

       Ta

       
   • lprent 8.2

     23 August 2019 at 2:48 pm

     Still figuring out what it is. Looks like wordfence is getting a  bit too much traffic.

     I have reduced the timeouts a lot. But it may be that the cdn isn't working…

     Working on it.
     • lprent 8.2.1

       23 August 2019 at 3:02 pm

       Ok. This may take a while as the CDN reloads. Looks like that was where bthe problem was.

       In the meantime I have reduced the lockout times, and increased the number of downloads allowed.
       • Stuart Munro. 8.2.1.1

         23 August 2019 at 3:15 pm

         Thanks – it's much better.
         • weka 8.2.1.1.1

           23 August 2019 at 3:28 pm

           Seems way better to me too.
       • Chris T 8.2.1.2

         23 August 2019 at 7:24 pm

         Cheers lprent

         Heaps better
   • Incognito 8.3

     23 August 2019 at 4:33 pm

     Don’t you like the new Auto-Moderation tool? You won’t even know that you’re being moderated 😉
     • Sacha 8.3.1

       24 August 2019 at 1:03 am

       Sheesh, just tell us not to be so chatty. 🙂
9. Dukeofurl 9

   23 August 2019 at 3:45 pm

   Still not sure why facebook  google cookies are being set for this site – the extra cookie load may be slowing down things too. But web pages are loading ok now.

   I would assume  its WordPress doing it for them .  Wont be long before Twitter is lurking in the background as well
   • weka 9.1

     23 August 2019 at 4:48 pm

     "Still not sure why facebook google cookies are being set for this site"

     Can you explain that in lay terms? eg when someone opens a TS page, the cookies from google are loaded into that browser?
     • xanthe 9.1.1

       24 August 2019 at 9:04 am

       I think that will be a feature of wordpress

       when a link to FB Twitter etc is placed in a post or comment WordPress adds a tag so that your browser goes and get an image from FB to connect the link to
10. xanthe 10

    23 August 2019 at 5:06 pm

    Tainui to buy Ihumātao land

    at least according to Duncan Garner ? ""

    https://www.newshub.co.nz/home/politics/2019/08/tainui-to-buy-ihum-tao-land-sources.html

    anyway Chris Finlayson thinks it is a great idea

    "They could think about an appropriate development there that takes into account all the concerns Pania has mentioned," said Dr Finlayson. 

    "You could get an appropriate Novotel there, beautiful open space. Someone suggested it could be a golf course… Open space, beautiful piece of land. What better than having 18 holes before you jump on the Emirates flight to Dubai?"

    WTF ???
    • weka 10.1

      23 August 2019 at 5:18 pm

      Kiingitanga spokesman Rahui Papa’s phone started ringing early this morning when Newshub reported that Tainui was about to buy back Ihumātao.

      But Mr Papa was quick to pour cold water on the claims.

      “There is no deal. There is no resolution at this stage and all of the media speculation is unfounded,” he said.

      https://www.rnz.co.nz/news/te-manu-korihi/397328/there-is-no-deal-waikato-tainui-leader

      Garner isn’t the last person I’d go to for information about Māoridom, but he’s close to last. I can’t see how this kind of MSM rumourmongering helps anyone.

      Whatever happens there’s still the issue of the land having been confiscated by the Crown.
      • Incognito 10.1.1

        23 August 2019 at 5:26 pm

        I can’t see how this kind of MSM rumourmongering helps anyone.

        It helps MSM.
        • weka 10.1.1.1

          23 August 2019 at 5:35 pm

          It helps Garner and Shub 😛
        • Sacha 10.1.1.2

          24 August 2019 at 1:06 am

          It seeds the idea that Māori can pay for the land that was confiscated from them, delighting the scared 'middle New Zillunders' who media care about.
          • Incognito 10.1.1.2.1

            24 August 2019 at 9:43 am

            I agree, middle-NZ can rejoice in the fact that property rights are still enshrined and the mighty dollar still rules. Law & Order has been restored and life will return to normal again. All is well in middle-NZ. When is SPJ’s next movie coming out and when are the ABs playing again?
    • mauī 10.2

      23 August 2019 at 5:32 pm

      Minister for treaty settlements offers iwi land back with a Novotel on it… Genius!
      • weka 10.2.1

        23 August 2019 at 5:35 pm

        and Māori have to pay for it, doubly brilliant!
        • Incognito 10.2.1.1

          23 August 2019 at 5:40 pm

          and Māori will work there, triply brilliant!
11. Eco maori 11

    25 August 2019 at 6:39 am
12. Eco maori 12

    25 August 2019 at 10:00 am

    Kia Ora The Hui. 

    I agree having organisation over sea company's looking after our tamariki in state care is a failed system of the past. 

    Ka pai Brendon from Christchurch going to the Marae to teach the people and kaumatua about the correct medication and method of taking of the medication as well as methods to save money.

    Your documents to help pharmacist work well with tangata whenua o Aotearoa. A lot of our kaumatua don't have the tautoko they need some people don't recognise me being tangata whenua to.

    Ka pai Kura your winning the Billy T James comedy awards I say comedy and laughter is good for the wairua. Kura woulder  shoulded will be a great comedy show 

    The first Maori to win the award in 15 years. 

    Ka kite Ano 
13. Eco maori 13

    25 August 2019 at 3:14 pm

    I tau toko Equality for Wahine all around Te Papatuanuku. Its great to see world leaders championing this cause equality and respect for Wahine Eco Maori congratulates the Wahine times are changing for the better for all 

    Every G7 country should have a feminist foreign policy

    We members of the G7’s Gender Equality Advisory Council are urging countries to ditch archaic and discriminatory laws and promote empowerment.

    The sheer tenacity of women raising their voices and organising for fundamental change has been, and will continue to be, the driving force for achieving women’s rights and a gender-equal world. Yet we cannot ignore the fundamental role that governments can play in either promoting or thwarting change. 

    That is why the four of us accepted French president Emmanuel Macron’s invitation to join 32 colleagues to form a G7 Gender Equality Advisory Council. On Sunday, we will present the culmination of our work; a package of recommended laws focused on ending gender-based violence; ensuring inclusive, equitable, and quality health and education; promoting the economic empowerment of women; and combating discrimination, ensuring full gender equality in policies and public life. In each area we point to laws from around the world that illustrate the type of action countries should take.

    Most countries – including the G7 – still have discriminatory laws that violate the rights of girls and women. Almost 40% have at least one constraint on women’s rights to own property. Women don’t have the same rights as men to get a job or pursue a trade or profession in 18 countries or to get a national ID card in 11 countries. Added to these archaic laws are the more recent ones that restrict women’s bodily autonomy, and deny sexual and reproductive rights.

    More positively, there are hundreds of good laws that address critical issues and push progress. For example, Denmark has a new law on cyber harassment, Iceland has the strongest equal pay laws in the world, and Morocco is institutionalising gender equality Ka kite Ano link below.

    https://www.theguardian.com/global-development/2019/aug/22/every-g7-country-should-have-a-feminist-foreign-policy-emma-watson
14. Eco maori 14

    25 August 2019 at 5:18 pm

    I was just talking to someone educatiing them about our rear native Kaka beak the other day here we have a story on this site.  We have to come up with a humane way to control goats and deer as this
    be a place where our kaka beak could thrive. Eco Maori will go with fenceing off a area to be a haven for our native animals floral and fruna 

    An audacious plan to save a rare species

    With fewer kākā beak plants in the wild than kākāpō, conservationists have been testing novel ways to hold the fort on extinction.

    Ka kite Ano link below. 

    https://www.newsroom.co.nz/2019/08/21/764019/an-audacious-plan-to-save-a-rare-species
15. Eco maori 15

    25 August 2019 at 6:25 pm

    Kia Ora Newshub. 

    Yes Lloyd the Amazon is one of the most important forests in the Papatuanuku its great that people are protesting about Brazil not putting more resources into the fighting that fire. 

    I agree laws are not good enough to to protect people from alcohol negative effects on people. Mike this is a great story to run I can look back into the past and see many negative incidents that stem from alcohol over use. 

    That' will give Sir Tim a big smile having a direct flight from Auckland to Invercargill the student will be happy to. 

    Lightning  strike at a golf game in America we never no when Tawhirimate lightning is going to strike 

    Ka kite Ano 
16. Eco maori 16

    25 August 2019 at 6:49 pm

    Kia Ora Te Ao Maori News. 

    Ka pai for our waka paddler all the best. 

    To me it seems like the person who made the Culture and heritage site has deliberately left the data on the site open to all Google searches. I E set up. 

    Te uroa the Smear you near campaign has raised the profile of cervical cancer for Wahine tangata whenua. 

    Sons of Black Bird showing how Pacific Islanders were used as slaves in Australia sugar plantation This will be a awesome doco/film for all. to watch Tangata Whenua O Aotearoa have problems with employment discrimination some can't even see that it's happening to them It cost one company a few hundred million. Black birds are one of my favourite birds to. 

    Ka kite Ano 

     
17. Eco maori 17

    26 August 2019 at 8:21 am

    Kia Ora The Am Show. 

    There you go the NZ housing market is still strong the regions outside of Auckland are doing great like Christchurch and Gisborne people saying our housing market is going down are not very intelligent as everyone knows that there is a huge housing short at the minute.

    Cameron All the governments of the Papatuanuku need to work together in these times of uncertainty and Climate Change its hard for people to stop  thinking about their own wellbeing over that of the World's future wellbeing self graterfacation is the Capitalist way of thinking so short sighted 

    The Myanmar government has treated their Muslim Rohingya tangata very bad I tau toko their gathering together to protest the way they are being pushed into A refugee camps across their borders. Respect for all cultures is the humane way to behave in the year 2019.

    Collegiun needs to be put in the rubbish bin and in our history books. Ka kite Ano. 
18. Eco maori 18

    26 August 2019 at 10:17 am

    Australian betting on Carbon Coal is a bet that will see Australia fortunes drop dramatically especially when Solar Power is %30 cheaper a %90 cleaner needs less water to run also the price of Solar is coming down rapidly just 1 year ago Solar was just % 5 more efficient than Coal. 

    Eco Maori bet is on the good clean and green energy from Te Ra the Sun Solar power and Wind Energy. 

    Australian thermal coal exporters warned of falling demand from India

    Report says outlook in India is ‘finely balanced and uncertain’ despite resources industry’s high hopes.

    Thermal coal exporters face “significant risk” that demand from India will decline, a report by the Australian office of the chief economist says.

    It also warned of long-term uncertainties in the market considered a “great hope” by miners.

    The report, released on Friday, came as the resources minister, Matt Canavan, prepared to visit India to spruik the Australian resources sector

    “If India’s thermal coal imports decline, there could be substantial implications for seaborne markets.”

    These uncertainties were largely out of the control of Australian miners and policymakers.

    This month India announced a plan to cut its coal imports by a third, counting on an increase in domestic production and in renewable energy output.

    The growth of its domestic coalmining sector, and an increase in the uptake of renewables, were among the uncertainties cited by the chief economist’s report

    As demand slows, particularly in China, the benchmark thermal coal price has sunk to a three-year low: US$61 a tonne. 

    Buckley said solar power in India was three times cheaper than the assumptions used in the chief economist’s report, based on outdated IEA predictions.

    “They’re underestimating the importance of low-cost renewable energy,” he said.

    “Growth of thermal coal demand in India is financially challenged by the fact renewable energy is 30% cheaper, so what bank in their right mind would finance a new coal-fired power plant.

    Ka kite Ano link below. 

    https://www.theguardian.com/environment/2019/aug/23/australian-thermal-coal-exporters-warned-of-falling-demand-from-india
19. Eco maori 19

    26 August 2019 at 2:11 pm

    The sandflys breaking into my new wind turbine stealing the charge controller and the manual on how to use the wind turbine

     
20. Eco maori 20

    27 August 2019 at 8:25 am

    Kia Ora The Am Show. 

    This government has put more resources into our Rangatahi than any I can remember. Mental health funding education funding trade training. More money for Social Security.

    . Yes. Mike thing have to change this issue is big and like any thing big it takes time to change I can see the positive change in Aotearoa. 

    The experts need to listen to other people's advice and opinions on mental health. 

    These issues mental health home less oranga tamariki are the symptoms of nine years of a government that puts money before tangata the everdince is there organisations recording record Profits. 

    Great cover of Queen Marc's he is one of my favourite singers 

    The dream is the oil barons hocking there carbon to the Papatuanuku and in the process that we are the %99.9 going stand by and watch the oil barons burn down OUR Whare. Solar and Wind Energy is the new trend that no one can NOT stop. The positive of Green energy verse the negative effects of carbon even a pepi could work out what is the best bet for All Solar and Wind Energy. 

    I get that. Lgb and transvestites minority culture have high self-harming and suerside rates hence Haters Shut Up Idiots.

    Ka kite Ano  
21. Eco maori 21

    27 August 2019 at 4:35 pm

    I ask myself this question all the time. 

    How can there be justice if the process isn’t just.

    Through the years, the mainstream media has had trouble applying itself to the task of calling the Crown to account for downplaying the Treaty. You get the impression that most of its influential journalists have seen the 1840 deal as undeserving of much of their time or space, unless there’s a punch-up.

    The news priorities are different within the Māori media. A number of the voices coming from that direction stick to the belief that the dishonouring of the Treaty by the Crown (and the media) are at the heart of New Zealand’s problems.

    One of those voices is that of Moana Maniapoto who’s on the case in various ways. One example is her documentary series The Negotiators which starts on Māori Television on September 2. And another is Te Ao with Moana which runs on Tuesday nights at 8pm. 

    Last Tuesday, she had three guests to chew over the little-understood business of Treaty settlements.

    They were Chris Finlayson, the former Minister for Treaty of Waitangi Negotiations, who’d worked on Ngāi Tahu’s Treaty claims before entering parliament in 2005. Professor Margaret Mutu, professor of Māori Studies at Auckland University and chief negotiator for Te Rūnanga a iwi o Ngāti Kahu. And Chris McKenzie, who was the lead Treaty settlement negotiator for Ngāti Raukawa, which included their historical claims and also co-management of the Waikato River.

    Here’s an edited version of that programme

    Ka kite Ano link below. 

    https://e-tangata.co.nz/history/how-can-there-be-justice-if-the-process-isnt-just/

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