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Open Mike 23/10/2016

Written By: - Date published: 6:00 am, October 23rd, 2016 - 60 comments
Categories: open mike - Tags:

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60 comments on “Open Mike 23/10/2016 ”

  1. weka 1

    [Please note, we are trialling something new for Open Mike and Daily Review.

    In order to keep OM and DR free for other conversations, all comments, link postings etc about the US election now need to go in the dedicated US election discussion here.

    If you are unsure, post in that thread rather than here. It’s not possible for moderators to shift comments from OM to there, so any comments here may get deleted.

    Have fun folks – weka]

  2. save nz 2

    Growth industry in US – slavery

    “The California prison system made $58m profit from the work of prison inmates in the financial year 2014-15, according to a study by the Solidarity Research Center, which also found that 4,000 incarcerated workers earn $2 a day fighting California wildfires.”


  3. Jenny 3

    Let us hope that we can do better.


    [All US election comments and links need to go in the dedicate threads. See the note at top and bottom of OM. Please repost this in a US election dedicated thread and then I will delete the one here – weka]

    • BM 3.1

      Are you blind?

    • save nz 3.2

      I think Jenny is more interested in why there hasn’t been a single direct question about the climate change to the would be presidents…

      • Sacha 3.2.1

        And she is welcome to ask that on the dedicated thread, lest this one degenerates rapidly as earlier ones did.

      • Jenny 3.2.2

        “I think Jenny is more interested in why there hasn’t been a single direct question about the climate change to the would be presidents…”
        save nz

        Well actually no.

        While this is a concern and disgrace, my comment was aimed at our upcoming election cycle.

        [I’ve removed the link. If you post in OM again about the US election, or ignore a moderator, expect a ban. It will probably be lengthy because of the amount of time having to be spend moderating you and putting in short bans – weka]

  4. pat 4

    “Another experienced building industry source, who asked not to be named, said the defective repair issue was “huge”.

    “The way I summarise it is, at probably no time in history, in European history, has so many private individuals been screwed over by a Government who said they were going to fix their asset and instead ruined their asset.

    “You and I, the taxpayer, are paying for it to be done and done again, and sometimes again, and again,” they said.

    “It’s huge. It’s so big, it’s bigger than the leaky home crisis – thousands and thousands of homes have been ruined.”

    Leaky buildings on steroids…..this Governments gift to NZ taxpayers…..enjoy


    • Gangnam Style 4.1

      A nice metaphor for the way National have been running things, fast & shoddy, then when you get down to see the foundations you see that they are cracked & will take years to fix. Nice one Joyce, Brownlee & Key.

      • pat 4.1.1

        yes could serve as a very apt metaphor for their whole approach to the economy….short term. no logical basis and only for appearances.

    • save nz 4.2

      Leaky building all over again. The government ‘fast track’, ‘low regulation’ and ‘importing low cost labour’ model for everything and then leaving it to the homeowners to sort out.

      In Auckland anyone can do plans for a resource consent without any qualifications and you don’t need any engineering either a lot of the time. Qualifications if at all come AFTER the resource consent is granted where the building consent people have to hobble together all the mess to try to make it work and you can change the resource consent anyway by putting different materials i.e. cladding in, post consent as long as you find a ‘friendly’ ear at council.

      • save nz 4.2.1

        One of the biggest leaky building cases going to court at present at 40 million the Victopia building in Auckland. What is interesting is that the developer had numerous names and companies over the years (KNZ International Co Ltd, formerly named Ganada Development Co Ltd and Dae Ju Developments Co Ltd) and that the architect which also has other leaky buildings in litigation such as the Spencer On Byron building, is ex Mainzeal another bankrupt company.

        The design alone should have alerted anyone well before it leaked, that there were going to be big problems. The victims are the poor owners who bought them and those who also bought around the monstrosity – and have to both view it and then live through the remedial work which looks like lasting for years. And if the other parties go bust, then I think the Auckland council aka the Auckland ratepayers have to pick up the rebuild tab.

        Win win for the incompetent all round. sarc. If you can be put in prison for a WINZ benefit fraud of a few thousand dollars by the testimony of some angry boyfriend, I’m not sure why more of these developers are not going to prison after years of litigation, that cost owners and taxpayers millions of dollars.

      • Brigid 4.2.2

        No, that isn’t the case. All building work, including plans and specifications must be approved by a Certified Building Professional. Each trade being approved by a CBP for that trade.
        This legislation was brought in in 2009

        • Gristle

          The concept is of limited use in the real world and has put a huge amount of risk onto small contractors.

          The common factor is that the CFP prefer to go belly up rather than face litigation. This leaves you either having a go at the insurance company (if applicable) or the product manufacturer (if you can prove that it was inherent to the product rather than faulty installation) or the council (if you can prove faulty inspection).

          Notice how many contractors will have tools and plant owned by one entity that leases these to the building company. Notice how many of these companies go under leaving sub-contractors unpaid. Notice how sub-contractors never get paid a decent percentage of the retentions, so end up building it into the first 90% of the contract.

        • save nz

          @Bridget. I’m talking about the Resource consent, not the building consent. It’s crazy you don’t need to be qualified to put the plans in. Also that is why so many developers just go to the resource consent and then sell. They leave all the problems for someone else as you can pretty much put anything thing onto the resource consent and 99% are approved no matter how crappy and unworkable the design.

  5. Jenny 5

    As the world witnesses a desperate dictator bombing his country’s cities with the help of his foreign allies, many wonder what is happening? Is Syria the same a Iraq where the US is trying to invade and take over another Arab country?

    The act of liberation can only be an act of the people themselves.

    My thoughts on the Syrian revolution and civil war.

    The difference between Iraq and Syria, is the Arab Spring.

    The people of the Middle East have for a long time been cursed to be ruled by a plethora of oppressive dictatorships and autocracies. Most of these regimes are a holdover from the division of the Middle East by the rival global empirialists of the 19th and 20 century, who set their borders, and have backed and installed the long line of despotic strongmen and autocrats we see ruling the region today.

    Most of these regimes are armed to the teeth and have a whole apparatus of oppression to maintain their rule. With massive armies and brutal internal security forces, supplied with arms and money in the form of military aid by The their superpower sponsors, who in return gain concessions to exploit the mineral wealth and people of the region.

    Eventually, it was inevitable, that there would be a region wide uprising against this state of affairs.

    It had been my opinion for a long time, even before the term “Arab Spring” had been coined, that the place for this outbreak to start would have been Iraq. Unfortunately the US war and invasion, aborted this potential.

    (Maybe this is what the US feared most).

    Democracy and independence, in Iraq, in Egypt, in Syria, in Saudi Arabia, in Jordan would mean the end of imperial domination and subjection of the region. It would also mean the end of the apartheid colonial state of Israel.

    The Arab Spring was/is the biggest democratic uprising in human history dwarfing in sheer scale and size of the numbers involved, and who took to the streets across the region, any other grass roots political movement in human history.

    Those who support the Regime of Basha Assad that I have debated with, and who can be (reluctantly), drawn to comment on the Arab Spring, and who more commonly refuse to acknowledge it all, dismiss the Arab Spring as a CIA, US, Saudi plot.

    But though it is hardly mentioned any more, it is through gaining a real understanding of the Arab Spring that we can understand the dispute in Syria.


    • Morrissey 5.1

      Jenny, your rambling and confused words, and your absurd spelling errors, show you have done no serious reading or thinking about Syria. And, no, watching television and reading blog sites does not constitute serious reading or thinking.

      Could I suggest you actually invest some time in educating yourself? The following would be a good beginning for you….


      [Gday, Morrissey. Spelling mistakes happen regularly here, particularly if people are using smart phones or autocorrect or dictionaries that default to American English. Sneering about minor inaccuracies is poor form and discourages people for whom writing doesn’t come naturally from contributing. And, as someone who is notoriously inaccurate, I would have though you’d be the last person to go down the pedantry route. Petard, hoist etc. Concentrate on the ideas, not the expression of them, OK? TRP]

      • Paul 5.1.1

        Patrick Cockburn has a lot more insight than many and he highlights the bias of the reporting of western media by comparing the reports of the sieges of Aleppo and Mosul.

        I recommend Jenny reads him as well as watch Adam Curtis’s recent film ‘Hypernormalisation’ which looks at perception management.
        The colour revolutions and the Arab spring are not exactly what they seem….


        • Morrissey

          Ignore the ad hominems Morrissey.
          Your work is appreciated by many.

          As is your work, my friend. I do very much appreciate your support, Paul, as well as that of “reason” and “fender”.

          Interestingly, this business of intensely scrutinizing every tiny inaccuracy in my transcripts—or transcrapts, as our friend Te Reo sometimes calls them—first started when the venerable Standardista Lanthanide objected to a post I had made in August 2011, targeting…. Hekia Parata.

          Open mike 30/08/2011

      • Paul 5.1.2

        Did you see how Dita da Boni showed up how right wing and reactionary ‘gentle and liberal’ Jim Mora is?

      • Morrissey 5.1.3

        Some very good advice there, my friend; my post was largely un-gallant and I apologize to Jenny and the wider Standard family.

        I have just one quibble: you claim, without posting any evidence, that I am “someone who is notoriously inaccurate”. Could you back that up please?

        (I don’t think you can.)

        • te reo putake

          I refer you to your many previous transcrapts, whose tenuous relationship to their claimed subject matter put the awe into awful 😉

          • Morrissey

            That’s simply personal abuse, Te Reo. You have nothing substantial to back up your claim.

            • te reo putake

              No, it’s not. The comment refers to your poor output not you personally. I’m shocked you don’t know the difference. Shocked, I tell ya.

              • Morrissey

                My “poor output”? That is personal abuse, and inaccurate. I don’t think even my enemies would describe my oeuvre in such terms.

                As you are well aware, Te Reo, I work extremely hard at writing good, presentable items for this site.

                • weka

                  ‘Poor output’ clearly refers to the inaccuracy of the transcripts. TRP is hardly the first person on ts to say that. It’s not abuse of you personally, it’s a characterisation of that part of your work, which you can dispute if you think it’s an unfair or inaccurate characterisation.

                  • Morrissey

                    Thanks for that, weka. As always, I appreciate your frank and well considered criticism.

            • Peter Swift

              There are many instances in the archives where your transcripts have been roundly dismissed for being nothing like the events they were portraying to advance your own pointed agenda.
              And whilst that is a clear abuse of free speech, TRP’s is simply not.
              Reporting fact can never be personal abuse.

              • Morrissey

                Could you give one example of this? And, by the way, who ARE you?

                • Peter Swift

                  These posts where you have been called out for falsely interpretating for your own gain are all in the archives. Regular readers will know this to be true. You also know this as truth as you’ve counter argued in them.
                  Do you really not remember? Or is it convenient to forget?
                  Or are you just playing at dumb?

                  • Morrissey

                    As you say, I’ve counter-argued in them, in fact, I’ve refuted their quibbles, which are almost entirely indignant claims that someone like Chris Trotter did not speak in a certain tone of voice, or that the long silences that often follow an inane Jim Mora statement are not “awkward”.

                    Once again, I ask: who are you?

                    [not sure what you are asking there Morrissey, but as you know it’s a site rule that no-one has to say who they are. This is to protect people who need that for RL ID reasons, and to focus the debate on the content of what people say rather than say trying to get personal about it – weka]

                    • Peter Swift

                      So that’s an acceptance your transcript reporting and impartiality have, on numerous occasions, been taken to task and rejected as self serving.
                      As far as ‘output’ goes, that’s definitely poor.

                    • Paul

                      Ignore the ad hominems Morrissey.
                      Your work is appreciated by many.

                    • reason

                      Peter Swift is a troll ……………… trolls are internet enabled self-sending dic pics …

                      presumptuous little dic pic swift peter has some balls ….. thinking a dic pic should have a decent humane like Morrissey justify themselves to a repeated & offensive……… prick.

                      I have appreciated reading Morrissey high grade posts which I generally find educating and interesting ….

                      trp, weka …… and peter swift couldn’t have done a better trolls job at derailing Morrisseys accurate calling out of Jennys hard core and disturbing war propaganda ….than if all three were trolls.

                      Looked like a pretty wanky three way handshake to me …..

                      Jennys posting …… which I would describe as a patchwork of war propaganda ….. is some seriously sick confused rubbish that is offensive to read.

                      batshit crazy war propaganda …. delivered like a sick sunday service.

                      Bullshit & bad behavior …………

                      Shit house

                    • Peter Swift

                      Ouch, Reason, you’re a sharp one. You totally cut me up and sliced me real good. A dic (sic), with balls, well I never did.
                      With wit like that, you should come with a safety warning attached. lol

                    • McFlock


                      I suppose that someone who can’t transcribe for shit can’t be expected to correctly remember the arguments they had about the accuracy (lack thereof) of those “transcripts”.

                  • fender


                    [trying to guess someone’s identity is not on – weka]

                    • Peter Swift

                      I didn’t see the failed guess, which would have been wrong who ever it was, but thanks to Weka for protecting and enforcing my shared right to post anonymously in the face of unmerited intrusion.

                    • fender

                      Weka, “fender” is not my identity. [deleted] was not an identity either. I believe the term is a moniker? I admire your enthusiasm but you might be getting a little carried away.

                      Don’t worry “Peter Swift”, no one was trying to guess your real life identity.

                      [I didn’t say real life identity. People have all sorts of reasons for using the pseudonyms they do, including changing them if they need to for reasons that might not be visible to you but are nevertheless important. You have no way of knowing if the name you are guessing is outing someone or not. I have no idea if you are right about your guess, but it’s against the rules here to do so. I take this very seriously. Because you have reused the name after a moderator asked you not to, I’m going to put you in premod until you acknowledge this second moderation, thanks – weka]

                    • fender

                      oh yes my mistake weka, I’ll change my name on a regular basis too

      • Jenny 5.1.4

        “Jenny, your rambling and confused words, and your absurd spelling errors, show you have done no serious reading or thinking about Syria.”

        That my absurd spelling errors gave you some amusement, is all for the good.

        About my rambling I make no apology. I was indulging in a stream of consciousness trying to figure out how The Standard Authors like Colonial Viper and Bill can support a mass murdering dictator, who slaughters his people from the air.

        Morrissey, in thinking that I have done no serious reading or thinking about Syria, you are seriously mistaken. After having been in Syria in late 2010, I have followed subsequent events there very closely.

        From my time in Syria I can tell you, that I know an oppressive and grotesque police state when I see one.

        It is those who peddle the narrative of a foreign CIA conspiracy to topple the dictator who have a very shallow understanding of Syria or indeed of the Arab people. That the Arab people don’t have the wit or the courage to try and overthrough their oppressors, and are not dupes in a big foreign conspiracy, is patronising and dare I say it racist.

        Here is a video report by New Zealand’s own Anita McNaught inside Syria at the start of the genocidal aerial bombardment of the liberated areas by the dictator. I think it destroys the stupid and shallow narrative of a foreign CIA/US/Saudi plot.



        • Morrissey

          About my rambling I make no apology. I was indulging in a stream of consciousness…

          What this issue needs more than ever is honest, intelligent discussion. Please leave the rambling and stream-of-consciousness nonsense to the likes of Mike Hosking, Leighton Smith, and Paul Henry—all of whom, by the way, share your support for the Al Qaeda insurrection in Syria.

          … trying to figure out how The Standard Authors like Colonial Viper and Bill can support a mass murdering dictator, who slaughters his people from the air.

          Neither of those two Standard regulars do that. You are willfully misrepresenting them.

          Morrissey, in thinking that I have done no serious reading or thinking about Syria, you are seriously mistaken.

          Really? Your views, which seem to be nothing more than automatic acceptance of the State Department’s brutal propaganda, are dangerously naïve.

          After having been in Syria in late 2010, I have followed subsequent events there very closely. From my time in Syria I can tell you,

          Who did you talk to in Syria? Just going there is no guarantee that you learned anything or had a serious look at the situation.

          …that I know an oppressive and grotesque police state when I see one.

          The United States is being revealed every day to be an oppressive and grotesque police state, at least in regard to poor blacks and Latinos and native Americans. Would you support a bloody insurrection in the U.S., led by religious fanatics and funded by a foreign state, as is happening in Syria?

          It is those who peddle the narrative of a foreign CIA conspiracy to topple the dictator who have a very shallow understanding of Syria or indeed of the Arab people.

          “Peddle the narrative”? You’re pretending that there is NOT a U.S./U.K./Saudi/Turkish conspiracy to topple Assad? Are you serious?

          That the Arab people don’t have the wit or the courage to try and overthrough [sic] their oppressors, and are not dupes in a big foreign conspiracy, is patronising and dare I say it racist.

          It is not “the Arab people” that is behind this bloody insurrection, it is Al Qaeda, and its state supporters—the United States, United Kingdom, Saudi Arabia, and Turkey.

          Here is a video report by New Zealand’s own Anita McNaught inside Syria at the start of the genocidal aerial bombardment of the liberated areas by the dictator. I think it destroys the stupid and shallow narrative of a foreign CIA/US/Saudi plot.

          Anita McNaught is hardly a credible journalist. As I said yesterday, you need to read something other than propaganda. I suggest you start sooner rather than later.

  6. Jenny 6

    Ever since the protest and occupation of the drill ship in New Plymouth by Lucy Lawless and other climate activists the continuing fight against extreme fossil fuel technologies like deep sea oil and arctic oil drillling the links between New Zealand and Norway are being drawn again.

    Tomorrow, the President of the native Sami People of Norway is joining a gathering of Maori and locals on the Marae Aripara in the far north at 1pm to celebrate a victory over deep sea oil drilling in this country.


    Meantime James Hansen has penned a letter to the Prime Minister of Norway asking for a halt in Artic oil drilling.

    Dear Prime Minister Solberg
    by Web Team | October 19, 2016
    Category: Blog
    October 18th, 2016
    Dear Prime Minister Solberg,
    A year ago I wrote an open letter urging you to carry out an act of transformational climate leadership. I held the faint hope that your government might yet waken to the realities of climate change, heed the call of thousands of Norwegians and rescind the 23rd licensing round, which allows oil companies to exploit massive fossil resources in the Barents Sea. That act of responsible stewardship – pulling out of an Arctic oil race that puts all of humanity at risk – would have salvaged Norway’s reputation as an environmental champion and set a bold example for the rest of the world. It would also have secured your legacy as one of a handful of political leaders reacting decisively to the greatest threat civilization has ever faced……


    • Jenny 6.1

      Correction: The President of the Sami People will be in Ahipara on Tuesday, not Monday.

      All welcome to join the celebrations.

  7. Morrissey 7

    The wit and wisdom of Michelle Boag
    Q+A, TV1, Sunday 23 October 2016

    The embarrassingly inept Hekia Parata will soon be gone, no doubt having been “encouraged” strongly to leave by the brains of the National Party, Mr Joyce, who has more than once been required to move in and clean up after her. Despite her embarrassingly substandard performance, there are some people who will do their duty and stick up up for her. People like Michelle Boag, who delivered the following eulogy this morning….

    “Hekia is a change agent. She is totally dedicated to education. The children in New Zealand could not be in better hands….”

    incoherent rambling continues….


  8. It can often be very challenging for the children of those who suicide. They often need a lot of support immediately after and access to it when they need it down the track. Of course they are a subset of all children who need help. They are all waiting too long for support – this MUST be improved. Kia kaha to all.


    • RedLogix 8.1

      Here in Australia it’s finally getting some attention. Six men are killing themselves every day and almost nothing was being said about it. Yes you read that right … six every day.



      Many of these men were employed in manufacturing, construction, farming and mining, Hickie said, fields which over the past few years have experienced high levels of redundancies and uncertainty.

      “Those with better employment prospects in these fields a decade ago are now experiencing a downturn, they often have families to support and mortgages to pay and they are then losing their jobs and losing their connection to friends and financial security. They become disconnected.

      “Sometimes their families fall apart as a result and they find themselves going through a divorce and personal upheaval too.”

      It is now the leading cause of pre-mature death in middle-aged men in Australia, almost 18% of deaths. An absolute epidemic that until very recently nobody wanted to talk about.

      And this is without even considering the impact on all the families, friends and co-workers left behind. That’s a whole other story as well.

  9. joe90 9

    Gavin MacFadyen, founder and director of the Centre for Investigative Journalism and associate of Julian Assange, has died.

    Standing by for the Clinton death pool nonsense……



  10. repateet 10

    “Did police use booze checkpoint to target elderly women at euthanasia meeting?”


    I wondered when I heard n the rad that police were visiting women who’d been at the meeting, if they or any of their neighbours were waiting for visits from the police because they’d been burgled. Waiting but not getting attention because the police were busy with important stuff.

    The legal people have their views, and expressed them in the article, “may have over-stepped the mark” and “unusual for those details (name and addresses) to be requested ahead of a breath-test”.

    To me it sounds like the stuff of a Police state.

  11. pat 11

    “As the commission doubtless knows, no government would impose such charges, or shut down northern airports to allow Heathrow to grow. Having approved the extra capacity, the government will discover that it’s incompatible with our commitments under the climate change act, mull the consequences for a minute or two, then quietly abandon the commitments. It’s this simple: a third runway at Heathrow means that the UK will not meet its carbon targets. Hold me to that in 2050.”


    a reaction I suspect we will see imitated here…

  12. weka 12

    [In order to keep OM and DR free for other conversations, all comments, link postings etc about the US election now need to go in the dedicated US election discussion here.

    If you are unsure, post in that thread rather than here. It’s not possible for moderators to shift comments from OM to there, so any comments here may get deleted – weka]

  13. Stuart Munro 13

    There was some discussion of the Philippines the other day after CV’s post. This is the Economist’s take on it:


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