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Open mike 25/07/2021

Written By: - Date published: 6:00 am, July 25th, 2021 - 157 comments
Categories: open mike - Tags:

Open mike is your post.

For announcements, general discussion, whatever you choose.

The usual rules of good behaviour apply (see the Policy).

Step up to the mike …

157 comments on “Open mike 25/07/2021 ”

  1. shane 1

    Some already do what is required, ethical business and are disadvantaged by policy for doing just that. The most common promotion I have heard from those academically trained is "bad business manager" "gain business advisor advice" for what? 20 years self employed delivering ethically focused outcomes. No one deserves such comments whilst just taking enough to live and maintain a family, is it so wrong not to aspire to growth, domination and large pay expectation…….. where is free time with family, growing own food, community availability and environmental care! We have lead by example now its your turn! Why does this Government continue to block green technologies entry to market : [link removed]

    [Hi Shane,

    I’ve removed your surname, as you have been previously approved here on this site as just “shane”. Please stick to this pre-approved user name, thanks. Some commenters accidentally include their full name when commenting, which is another reason to remove your surname.

    I’ve also removed the link. This forum is not for free advertising and unless a link to a product or service that you provide and benefit from is highly relevant and pertinent to the discussion, it is considered SPAM. Spammers usually are banned permanently from this site. Please keep this in mind – Incognito]

    [TheStandard: A moderator moved this comment to Open Mike as being off topic or irrelevant in the post it was made in. Be more careful in future.]

    • Incognito 1.1

      See my Moderation note @ 12:37 pm.

      • shane 1.1.1

        Thanks for your reply, the link was to our environmentally more friendly patented N.Z product "ours" to display the green technology discussed within the "comment" that is being blocked entry to the State funded and managed pest control market. It was not intended to be an advert!

        • Incognito

          We’re sensitive on this site to these sorts of ‘promotion’, especially when not disclosed that there’s a conflict of interest, perceived or real. Why run the risk of being banned permanently as a Spammer? Other Moderators might see it differently, but I got to it first.

          Please stick to your pre-approved user name, as it uses up Moderator time each time a comment has to be released from Auto-Moderation.

  2. Janet 2

    Your problem lies maybe here


    This comment on page 19 you should find particularly revealing :

    “Accelerate: Applying Predator Free 2050 tools and techniques across the landscape as fast as possible, as they are developed.

    I have directly questioned Brent Beavan Director of Predator Free 2050Ltd on this one

    This statement implies to me that Predator Free 2050 Ltd intends only to use the

    tools and techniques that Predator Free 2050 Ltd has developed.

    Is that the case ? “

    and he will not directly reply.

    You feel blocked out – it seems that maybe you are. State paid academics and adminstrators RULE in the area of pest control. This is the same situation that the NZ famers are experiencing. Being overridden or ignored by State paid employees without due consideration to their hands-on experience and without consultation. In Switzerland , the most democratic country in the world, major shifts in the way the country approaches new or reviews old situations are always put to the public by regular referendums run 3 or 4 times a year. There is always a period of “education “ preceding. I have long wished the same was done here.

    [TheStandard: A moderator moved this comment to Open Mike as being off topic or irrelevant in the post it was made in. Be more careful in future.]

    • Incognito 2.1

      Shane and you probably are better to comment than I, but a search on the Government procurement site on Predator Free 2050 gives quite a number of results, which taken at face value doesn’t seem to be consistent with what you are saying.


      • shane 2.1.1

        [name deleted] when working for DOC, May 2014 "For future reference, had we considered there was more potential for your product, the Department is then required to invite proposals from the industry to solve the problem (without eluding to your solution). This is to ensure the best use of public money and be fair to others." In other words when we wish to fund something or some one we like we need public notify and tender knowing full well what it is that we seek. Incognito if you look at the link you provided and explore it some more you will see the descriptive nature of what they seek. There is no chance to suggest another way, there is no chance to just show results through field implementation. Field implementation to date has shown to be 6-8 times more effective for possums when monitored than aerial 1080. The discounting (based on assumption not science) of the only stand alone pest control system, the first electronic's used in pest control in N.Z, that can economically deliver results whilst maintaining a social license (as highlighted above). What right does [name deleted], [name deleted] in State partnership / private enterprise have to then take that IP presented in confidence and create task specific tools to copy design elements ("autolure" described in Fight for the Wild series 4 where [name deleted] claims a major "step change" due automated luring) ……..rather a contrast considering the 2014 reply and that all DOC / Predator Free 2050 Ltd funding / market opportunity for the next 7 years has been dominated by [name deleted].

        [Your comment is hard to parse and it appears that you have some beef with DOC and a specific individual. This site is not the place to re-litigate those things or make accusations that could put the site at legal risk. Anything that you assert here must be able to be supported with a link, if necessary. I have deleted the name of the specific person and the company to lower any potential risk.

        I don’t think this comment fits under this Post but the Author may decide to shift it to OM or leave it where it is or delete the whole comment.

        Please stick to commenting on posts and/or comments, thanks – Incognito]

      • Janet 2.1.2

        The link to GETS that you refer to is in fact a time wasting exercise for the private inventor of resolved pest control tools. It is a convoluted way the Predator Free collective goes about getting funds and the ideas they need to help them with specific projects they are working on

        Yes at a first glance it looks like a stark contradiction to what was printed in the Predator free 2050 5 year progress report I commented on (https://www.doc.govt.nz/globalassets/documents/conservation/threats-and-impacts/pf2050/pf2050-5-year-progress-report.pdf

        But it is not . It is in fact to help them develop THEIR tools.

        • Incognito

          Thank you. Your comment echoes that of Shane @ 8.1.1, which you hadn’t seen yet because it was held up by Auto-Moderation because he’d made a typo in his user name, again. Just as well, because he made some accusations against a specific individual and organisation.

          If what Shane and you’re saying there is something very wrong with the DOC procurement process. FYI, I have experience with it and with GETS and I have found the process robust but it depends on the organisation. It sounds like you’re alluding to theft of ideas and even IP, which is quite something, if true.

          Do you have any links, e.g., to MSM reports, to this mess that could corroborate Shane and your version?

          Please be careful what you say on this site and how you say it because we don’t want to put the site at legal risk!

          • shane

            Thanks Incognito, I would not make such assertions without hard facts and substantial evidence. In 2019 I did have a noted public servant as witness to a "Tools to Market" decline debriefing. The person delivering the debrief openly stated “we had designed a tool without a market, a tool that no body wanted" also stating " cage traps, (additional part of application), are not tools for eradication" yet several months later cage traps were used (as per our management promotion) to catch the so called last possum in Perth Valley. The reason I bothered to make comment is we have been pushing back against non sustainable land management by providing working solutions for over twenty years, trying to discover new ways to operate that are socially and environmentally responsible. We personally have run our family and company carbon surplus, having a very low ecological footprint, though have not sought carbon credits nor environmental funding to enable. Instead run a business that was ethical, socially empowering plus paying above a living wage to all employee's. Our designs encourage and enable "shifts in consciousness to remembering the earth is our mother"…….we are already doing what is required, creating positive change, whilst others with abundant funds are impeding change for career notoriety. Camouflaging the status quo with a green image does not bring about positive change……. there has been a economic solution to aerial 1080 pest control where people can walk since 2014. It was offered for free at the time to be developed but was declined. We have continued with this concept and in 2017 delivered a commercialised product that has proven effective in operation, ask your self why it has not been supported by mainstream State players……. and why endless money is being spent in research not just doing the job at hand! Saving the planet…….

            • shane

              "For those that understand the cyclical, interconnected nature of reality and why growth is inherently limited in the physical world and that our best hope in the face of the impending catastrophe is shifts in consciousness to remembering the earth is our mother" doing just that!

          • shane

            "For future reference, had we considered there was more potential for your product, the Department is then required to invite proposals from the industry to solve the problem (without eluding to your solution). This is to ensure the best use of public money and be fair to others." as delivered to me on email 2014, in reply to incognito's "If what Shane and you’re saying there is something very wrong with the DOC procurement process" If enough blinkers are placed within the procurement description exclusion can occur. Such as other TB generated pest control tendering that is delivered through a pay to use tender site, but encompasses PCL within, being tendered at a regional scale preventing smaller localised operators the chance to tender. Hardly what could be competitive public tendering……

  3. shane 3

    "Face Value" is correct, within the link its already directed to assist those tools deemed by the team to suit the need. There is no space for tools that deliver many outcomes in a single device, assumption by the panel of non practical people often rely on science and reports, it is not possible to deliver a product through work completion and success . All applicants supply the panel members the latest conceptual ideas in the hope of assistance this in turn enhances those panel members knowledge for free!


    [TheStandard: A moderator moved this comment to Open Mike as being off topic or irrelevant in the post it was made in. Be more careful in future.]

  4. Treetop 4

    The NSW protest occurred because of people being against a lockdown. Due to the protest the lockdown will probably be extended.

    Is there another way to protest against having a lockdown which will not be counter productive?

    • Robert Guyton 4.1

      Hire a sky-writer?

      • Ad 4.1.1

        Con-trails with Aerosol vaccines.

        Like the Painted Apple Moth eradication programme across West Auckland in 2002: lots of planes at 100metres or less, showering us all.

        • Andre

          Worth a try.

          I was extremely skeptical the Painted Apple Moth spraying program would work, but it actually succeeded.

          • Rosemary McDonald

            …Painted Apple Moth spraying program would work, but it actually succeeded.

            Pity about the adverse effects suffered by those on the ground. There was an Inquiry .

            And a very interesting report from the Ombudsman. (link to the pdf in the above linked page)

            35. I think that the difference between my perception of the Ministry's role in this instance and the Ministry's own perception is largely one of degree. The
            12 Ministry tended to approach the matter from the standpoint of whether there was what I will describe as a macro public health issue, epitomised by the oft repeated phrase "no adverse health patterns were found, once patterns were examined at a population level ". In terms of actual effect the issue was rather a micro public health issue affecting a comparatively small number of people, but nevertheless, on the evidence, having a significant impact on their

            36. In the Ministry's most recent memorandum – Part 3 – The MOH’s Concern
            About Individual Health Effects – it is stated that it was important that it be
            made clear to individuals in the spray zone that there was no evidence of
            serious long-term health effects resulting from the spray. However, the
            absence of such evidence was due to two factors, namely that the events
            had just recently occurred, and secondly, that no research into long-term
            effects had been conducted.
            It is unclear to me whether that second
            situation remains. If it does, I consider that it is a matter which should
            receive the Ministry's urgent attention.
            (bold mine)

            When it comes to the mass distribution of a potentially harmful substance (because of the 'greater good, or 'the economy') there is history. Here and overseas. It is truly baffling to me that so many here are blind to the long term effects of this history. Trust in governments. Trust in science.

            • shane

              I realise you will right me off as anti vac but reality is I have farm animals and do from time to time vaccinate them. I understand our sustainable meat rabbits recently died because they where not vaccinated and another had released the rabbit virus locally. To be healthy is a wonderful feeling, its not until you feel poorly that you ask the questions why, will I recovery and they said this was safe. It may be safe to most, but as pointed out above a small proportion of otherwise prior healthy may feel poorly afterwards. We all have different DNA characteristic's, if you offered a vaccine without a Glycol hexane base I could consider it, but to tell me its safe then leave me to find it contains Glycol of which my DNA has already rejected resulting in poisoning is giving me a death sentence.

              • Incognito

                Have you checked the list of excipients in the Pfizer vaccine? I don’t think there is anything in it that could fit your “Glycol hexane base”. In any case, your DNA doesn’t reject anything, it cannot do/perform such a thing.

                • shane

                  Suggest the damage is done by the carrier solution, I did quick research PEG and Hexane 6 were present in the vaccines on offer. Happy for correction….. DNA characteristic's most certainly can cause issues like poor metabolism / detoxification as examples (GSTM1 null, GSTT1 null, APOE4/4, GSTP1)

                  • Incognito

                    6.1 List of excipients

                    ((4-hydroxybutyl)azanediyl)bis(hexane-6,1-diyl)bis(2-hexyldecanoate) (ALC-0315)

                    2-[(polyethylene glycol)-2000]-N,N-ditetradecylacetamide (ALC-0159)

                    Distearoylphosphatidylcholine (DSPC)


                    Potassium chloride

                    Monobasic potassium phosphate

                    Sodium chloride

                    Dibasic sodium phosphate dihydrate


                    Water for injections

                    This vaccine contains less than 1 mmol potassium (39 mg) per dose, that is to say essentially ‘potassium-free’.

                    This vaccine contains less than 1 mmol sodium (23 mg) per dose, that is to say essentially ‘sodium‑free’.


                    DNA contains the genetic code and has very little known other biological function although that will change, undoubtedly.

                    • shane

                      Thanks incognito

                      What % of vaccine is made up of these two components I wonder,

                      ((4-hydroxybutyl)azanediyl)bis(hexane-6,1-diyl)bis(2-hexyldecanoate) (ALC-0315)

                      2-[(polyethylene glycol)-2000]-N,N-ditetradecylacetamide (ALC-0159)

                      Smart Genes offer service already to understand implications of genotypes, unfortunately the medical system are not there yet and don't fund such testing, funding has to be done as an individual and due the medical systems is not funding the testing it appears its not recognised as medical evidence.

                    • Incognito []

                      Hexane is simply a chain of 6 carbons and, as such, extremely common. PEG is a known allergen, but not all PEGs are the same, it really is a large family, and each PEG is actually a mixture of many different substances (AKA analogues) that differ in the number of repeating ethylene units. Are you allergic to latex?

                      In any case, you’d be wasting your money on genotyping for this.

                    • shane

                      Excess PEG is converted into hexane when metabolism can not keep up, Hexane becomes a free radical in the body causing oxidative stress, being an imbalance of free radicals and antioxidants in the body. Additional thyamine was suggested to be required to help with metabolism process. There is only one "PEG" there are many other versions with additions of methyl, ether etc all having different names and molecule structure and size. PEG has been used in surgery as a blood clotting agent its commonly found in herbicides as a main ingredient. Metabolism functions are different in every living person, those with GSTP1, GSTT1 null, GSTM1 null genotype are known to have impaired metabolism(up to 9 times slower research paper was dated 1995) so what was a safe product to the majority becomes a harmful or deadly product to the individual. The good thing is one can get tested, even if it costs them personally. Incognito I would suggest goggle nhexane SDS New Jersey.

                    • Incognito []

                      You’d be wasting your money because the test is most likely to be utterly useless for what you want to know. However, feel free to be sucked in and to waste your hard-earned money.

                      I have no interest in continuing this conversation.

                  • Drowsy M. Kram

                    Hi Shane – for what it's worth I've had two Pfizer jabs with no obvious ill effects. If you have concerns about the safety of this vaccine then I reckon it's OK to choose to take your chances with COVID-19. If you do eventually get infected with COVID, just do your best to stay well and try not to spread COVID to those at high risk of being hospitalised.

                    There's no hexane or PEG in the Pfizer vaccine (COMIRNATY). 'Hexane' and 'PEG 2000' are chemical groups/units/moieties that are parts of each of the two synthetic lipid molecules (ALC-0315 and ALC-0159) present in the vaccine, which also contains the naturally-occuring lipids distearoylphosphatidylcholine (0.09 mg) and cholesterol (0.2 mg).

                    Each dose of the Pfizer vaccine contains 0.43 mg of ALC-0315 (M.W. 766 g/mol), which contains two hexane groups/units/moieties, so those two hexane moieties constitute < 0.1 mg per dose.

                    Each dose of the Pfizer vaccine contains 0.05 mg of ALC-0159. The PEG 2000 (i.e. 2000 M.W.) group/unit/moiety of ALC-0159 makes up most (~83% by weight) of this PEGylated lipid molecule.

                    mRNA-lipid nanoparticle COVID-19 vaccines: Structure and stability [15 May 2021]

                    The synthetic lipids ALC-0315 and ALC-0159 aren't metabolised (hydrolysed) to hexane and PEG 2000 (respectively) in animals, although ALC-0159 is metabolised to the very closely related PEG (2000) carboxylic acid. However, about 50% of ALC-0159 may be excreted unchanged in faeces.

                    Metabolism: The in vitro metabolism of ALC-0315 and ALC-0159 was evaluated in blood, liver microsomes, S9 fractions, and hepatocytes from mice, rats, monkeys, and humans. The in vivo metabolism was examined in rat plasma, urine, faeces, and liver samples from the PK study. Metabolism of ALC-0315 and ALC-0159 appears to occur slowly in vitro and in vivo. ALC-0315 and ALC-0159 are metabolised by hydrolytic metabolism of the ester and amide functionalities, respectively, and this hydrolytic metabolism is observed across the species evaluated.


                    • shane

                      Thanks Drowsy, I am a possum hunter not a chemist. But I do understand what I have researched over the last 10 years, it relates to so called harmless organic solvents, harmless organic solvent poisoning and it included PEG, DEG. My conclusion was verified with smart gene testing due the State did not have the capacity (or want) to enable the testing. Its unfortunate the N.Z Medical Authority does not pay more attention to geno testing as a means of preventative care. "However, about 50% of ALC-0159 may be excreted unchanged in faeces." I read similar relating to PEG though it related to that of which passes through the stomach. The information is out there, people just need the time to become informed and make informed decision based on own findings.

                    • Incognito []

                      “However, about 50% of ALC-0159 may be excreted unchanged in faeces.” I read similar relating to PEG though it related to that of which passes through the stomach.

                      The liver is a major organ of metabolism and excretion and much of it ends up in the faeces. This is largely independent of the route of ingestion or administration.

                    • shane

                      "If you do eventually get infected with COVID, just do your best to stay well and try not to spread COVID to those at high risk of being hospitalised." You haven't quite understood yet, as a healthy individual I have been poisoned already by so called harmless PEG and DEG, I have developed auto immune issues since the poisoning contact, I am a risk of being hospitalised if I contract COVID from someone who or hasn't has already been vaccinated or if I have contact with PEG or DEG…………Its not so clear cut……and I have a family to feed so must continue to participate.

                  • Drowsy M. Kram

                    @Shane (8:41 am and 8:55 am) – I understood that you want to get vaccinated against COVID (it is, after all, the sensible thing to do), and that you are concerned one or more of the chemical compounds in the Pfizer vaccine may represent a risk to you in particular.

                    organic solvent poisoning

                    I have been poisoned already by so called harmless PEG and DEG, I have developed auto immune issues since the poisoning contact

                    I'm not a toxicologist, but, even if all of the 0.05 mg of the 'PEG 2000-containing' synthetic lipid ALC-0159 in a Pfizer vaccine dose was metabolised to PEG 2000 in your body, it seems unlikely that it could constitute a significant risk of poisoning, as it would be present at less that 1 part PEG per billion (of body weight).

                    Relative to this list of five of the most deadly poisons to humans, PEG 2000 would need to have a toxicity greater than batrachotoxin (a poison extracted from the skin of frogs; number 3 on the list) to constitute a significant risk of death.

                    Maybe you can locate a sympathetic toxicologist / immunologist / vaccinologist / allergist or other medical expert to advise and/or reassure you. I applaud you for doing your own research to find a truth that works best for you and your particular circumstances, and wish you well.

                    • shane

                      Thanks again for your comments, reality is any chemicals containing glycol mixes left on my skin triggers an auto immune response.

                      If I was enabled to find a toxicologist or the likes that understood chemical poisoning in 2006 I would not have been left (financially) without in my time of need. ACC would not have declined my workplace injury and we would have had some form of financial support as a family for the 3 years plus of complications that follows, but we didn’t! We received not a cent in assistance, as we receive not a cent to assist with enviroMate100 built and delivered with no State money.

                      I will now leave you all in peace…….keep up your good work.

                  • Andre

                    @shane: the Janssen/J&J vaccine has also been approved for use in New Zealand. I dunno whether any is actually here, nor what the process would be for getting it. But that would seem a reasonable alternative for those at risk of allergic reaction to the Pfizer.

                    The only serious side effects I've heard of off the top of my head for the Janssen are very rare instances of blood clotting, similar to the Astra Zeneca but somewhat rarer. IIRC, the incidence isn't much above background so it took quite a while to get enough data to say it was a real thing.


                    • shane

                      Thanks for the suggestion Andre

                      Swedes and Finnish have a population that has a higher % of people having APOE 4/4 geno type. The same applies to several countries in Africa. Glycol is also used within the vaccines. I did write to them directly already, that was 1 month before they announced that they may have identified the cause of the clotting….. 90k approx. people in N.Z have similar genetic traits as I do, just normally these people do not get exposed to Glycol based solvents to the same degree as I did, so their poisoning is more gradual over 7-15 years…….. geno type testing gives opportunity to those susceptible to avoid things harmful. I note Oxidative carbon also has some interesting symptoms……

        • Robert Guyton

          Anti-vaxxers could simply hold their breath.

    • weka 4.2

      if the people protesting don't believe in social distancing, mask wearing, or even that covid is serious, there's not much to be done in making the protests safer.

      • Sabine 4.2.1

        I think that it might actually be a mental health issue. And i think Covid – Fatigue, Anxiety, Depression, fear of loss of earnings/income is a thing and should maybe be acknowledged.

        Is it dumb to demonstrate and pretend it does not exist, but it is equally lazy to say all these guys are idiots or deniers rather then say these guys have been locked up now for 4 weeks – 23 hours a day, and are looking at a lockdown without end and simply blew a gasket or two. Not everyone in Sidney lives in a large place with out door space. Many life in smallish flats in high rises.

        The longer the vaccine roll out lasts, the less the governments have power to keep people locked up – essentially prisoners – in their own homes. I don't know how the issue is with Job losses and income losses etc in OZ, but if they are all now Prisoners of Covid by Government decree then the government needs to make sure they are paid in the same sense as anyone on Home D. Compensation for businesses would be next, unless of course now it is ok for people to get into bankruptcy for the general health of all – sacrifices must be made by some but not all, etc.

        So really maybe this is a bit more complex then just 'trying to make protests' safer. They may still believe that it is 'real' or somewhat real, but chances are that they are done and rather get it and get over it, then that current drawn out process of empty promisses, underfunded health systems etc and the loss of their lifelyhoods and 'lifes'.

        Anyone who has an income irrespective of lockdown – a. they are on a pension or similar, b. they can work from home, can not really understand the anxiety that comes with having to pay leases on commercial properties, rates taxes etc, while on a hand out from government that does not even pay rent alone – and that comes with the risk of a refund request in the future. And that so far is not acknowledged it seems too.

        I don't approve of the protests at all, like you i think it is not helpful, but as a person with anxiety issues, i can understand how being locked up for 23 hours a day in a flat can be very mind destructive.

        The best any country right now can do is get vaccines delivered, and into arms, any willing arms asap. And if they have to pay surge prices then so be it. As that would still be cheaper then slow walking the vaccinations.

        • Pete

          It is a terrible situation. Some of the reactions though remind me of the saying "If you think education is expensive, try ignorance."

          If lockdown is terrible, try suffering the worst symptoms of the virus, try going to your parents' funerals, your child's. Try death.

          I get it that being in lockdown is personal and everyone reacts differently. Some will see it as the biggest challenge they face in their life. It is a matter of perspective.

          I wonder how my Grandfather would have handled it. It is said he lost his marbles at the battle of the Somme. Maybe he would have considered lockdown a walk in the park.

          • Sabine

            talk about missing the point.

            I am talking about mental health issues. All these people have seen the same images as you and I. They all have the same knowledge as you and I. They all to an extend understand what it involves, but their first needs are what they think about. Again, try dismissing the idea that being locked up at home for 23 hours is good for anyone but introverts, and many are not. Try dismissing the idea of angst one has by 'hiding', etc. Try dismissing that these men – and it seems to be a lot of these people in the images, and dismiss the many different reasons they might be out there, venting their angst, their anger and their frustrations.

            What i see in the faces of these guys – and i saw the same in the US is years of disregard of mental health issues, made worse by a year of constant warning to be safe, to be careful etc. An inablity to cope in a world where they are no longer the prime decision maker of their lifes and so on and so forth.

            I would never even come to compare World War 1 with Covid, but how many in the trenches did just up and walk into the bullets because they needed the fear and angst to end? Heck they did not even need to walk, they just needed to stand up. Or just shot themselves to get out of the t renches. On the german side are “other”652,185 medical cases (i would venture a guess that these are the self inflicted wounds or attempted suicides). German Death somewhere around 2 million. https://encyclopedia.1914-1918-online.net/article/war_losses_germany

            The fear that we are going into bunker mentality is a real one. And the OZ government did not help itself by slow walking the vaccine drive, and is now essentially paying the price.

            We all know that drink driving is deadly, yet every weekend we lose someone to drink driving. Same with being on a boat without life jackets. Wearing seatbelts, etc. And yet, people still don't do what is good for them. Go figure.

            • Drowsy M. Kram

              Quite right re the adverse effects of lockdowns on mental health, but those affected should at least try to understand the purpose of lockdowns.

              The purpose of lockdowns is not to limit the freedom of people. The purpose of lockdowns is to limit the freedom of Covid to infect, mutate, debilitate and kill.

              The more successful a country is in limiting the freedom of Covid-19 (by effective vaccination, prudent lockdowns, etc.), the less its people have to 'endure' the arduous/challenging loss of freedom – at least if NZ is anywhere to go by.

              Kia kaha.

              • Sabine

                Honestly, all that is correct, and yet, we will see the same here had we had to endure several 4 week + lasting lockdowns.

                We have the world full of idiots, heck we even had a tv programm about it : Jackasses. They do exist, and they will be whom they are, the rest however are breaking mentally and morally (in regards to their communities) and we should be aware of it.

                The world needs to speed up its vaccinations and it should focus on that, it should stop travelling – and that includes those on exemption for the cheap entertainment and making money.

                But here we are and again – once we more hope that we are the lucky country.

                • WeTheBleeple

                  Absolutely agree it's a mental health issue. Everyone's frayed by covid, add the existential dread of climate change, and the absolutely disastrous Trump Presidency we were all treated to on a daily basis – fuck!

                  I am tired, angry, completely and utterly over fools and attention seekers, and every day, more shit.

                  If ever there was a time to fund the Mike King's of the world, it's right bloody now.

        • Treetop

          The impact of Covid is a huge mental health issue. The most affected may end up being emergency and health workers.

          Many other groups face loss and grief as well.

          • Sabine

            It is going to affect all of us in one way or another. And some cope better then others, some are able to adapt faster then others.

            • Treetop

              Each age group with bands of 20 years will see their world based on life experience and the resources they have available.

        • Drowsy M. Kram

          Is it dumb to demonstrate and pretend it does not exist, but it is equally lazy to say all these guys are idiots or deniers rather then say these guys have been locked up now for 4 weeks – 23 hours a day, and are looking at a lockdown without end and simply blew a gasket or two.

          You couyld be right – certainly the prospect of "a [strict] lockdown without end" would be as unappealing as it is unrealistic. These stressed-out demonstrators must be at the absolute limits of endurance, resilience and reason – in sporting parlance they're simply suffering a collective brain explosion – "Good onya Kev!"

      • RedLogix 4.2.2

        It would help if authorities had acknowledged that COVID hardly ever spreads in outdoor settings with plenty of air movement. It's my understanding the virus really doesn't like UV either.

        Therefore wearing a mask, walking down a beach, other people many metres away at worst, with an onshore breeze is totally pointless. Gathering in crowds where people get sardined together at pinch points, or busy shopping streets probably isn't the smartest thing, but it turns out that 99% of the world is safe enough.

        It's indoor settings that are high risk, and most protests don't go there.

        • arkie

          It would help if authorities had acknowledged that COVID hardly ever spreads in outdoor settings with plenty of air movement.

          You mean like this? From the WHO:

          Are there certain settings where COVID-19 can spread more easily?

          Yes, any situation in which people are in close proximity to one another for long periods of time increases the risk of transmission. Indoor locations, especially settings where there is poor ventilation, are riskier than outdoor locations. Activities where more particles are expelled from the mouth, such as singing or breathing heavily during exercise, also increase the risk of transmission.

          https://www.who.int/news-room/q-a-detail/coronavirus-disease-covid-19-how-is-it-transmitted (My italics)

          Activities such as chanting or shouting or, indeed, punching police horses would lead to more particles being expelled from the mouth don’t you think?

          • RedLogix

            As far as I'm aware horses are not a host for SARS-COVID-2. They're too big a species to be useful as lab animals. devil

            • Drowsy M. Kram

              As far as I'm aware horses are not a host for SARS-COVID-2.

              Give it time – the 'horsey set' are a passionate bunch wink


            • Incognito

              I don’t think arkie was talking about the horse’s mouth.

            • arkie

              Who knows, but what is known is that the authorities have been advocating for masking and social distancing even outside for more than a year now and I don't see any evidence that your statements about UV are accurate. The WHO site is very informative:

              FACT: Ultra-violet (UV) lamps should NOT be used to disinfect hands or other areas of your skin

              UV radiation can cause skin irritation and damage your eyes.

              Cleaning your hands with alcohol-based hand rub or washing your hands with soap and water are the most effective ways to remove the virus.


              • RedLogix

                A quick search suggests that as is so often the case WHO may be a little out of date. There is plenty of evidence to suggest UV-C is quite effective.

                And what happens outdoors, where any virus particles are highly diluted and exposed to UV all through the middle of the day, is relatively lightly researched as far as I know.

                Bottom line however, what we do know, is that regardless of whether it's UV, dilution, or some combination of other effects – hardly any known cases of transmission have occurred in outdoor settings so far. Delta is thought to be about twice as infectious, suggesting that more social spacing and extra caution is a good idea – but still most of the world is perfectly safe. Masking outdoors is probably of symbolic value only, and people should be free to go there without being harassed by authorities.

                • arkie

                  And what happens outdoors, where any virus particles are highly diluted and exposed to UV all through the middle of the day, is relatively lightly researched as far as I know.

                  From your link:

                  Myth #1: Sun exposure can protect you from COVID-19

                  While sunlight does contain UV light, it’s mostly UVA and UVB light. These types of UV light are less effective at killing SARS-CoV-2.

                  Perhaps more importantly, prolonged exposure can also lead to skin damage, sunburn, or even skin cancer.

                  Myth #2: Using a UV lamp on your body can protect you from COVID-19

                  While a UV lamp may be used to disinfect surfaces, avoid using one to kill the new coronavirus on your hands or other parts of your body.

                  Remember, most types of UV light can be harmful to people. Exposure can result in skin irritation, damage, or burns.

                  So, there's that. As for:

                  Masking outdoors is probably of symbolic value only, and people should be free to go there without being harassed by authorities.

                  Well the authorities in NSW have instituted rules for their lockdown that these protests are violating:

                  There are rules for wearing a fitted face covering (face mask)

                  • when using public transport
                  • when you are travelling in a vehicle (car) with a person you do not live with (see the guidance on carpooling)
                  • in Greater Sydney residential building common areas
                  • in non-residential indoor areas
                  • for some situations in outdoor areas
                  • in airports and on commercial domestic flights.

                  Wear a face mask any time that you cannot stay 1.5 metres away from other people.

                  https://www.nsw.gov.au/covid-19/rules/face-mask-rules (my italics)

                  • RedLogix

                    It doesn't matter if UV-A and B are less effective, so long as they have some impact then over time sunshine alone effectively sterilises the atmosphere outdoors. That and the dilution effect means most of the outdoor world is safe and we should treat it as such.

                    And yes it's good to see NSW modifying their rules, but here in WA during the last lockdown a few weeks back, it was masks all day long regardless of setting. Most people knew this was stupid.

                    • arkie

                      Forgive me if I remain skeptical of your various pronouncements about what 'we know', what the 'authorities' are doing and what 'most people think is stupid'.

                • Incognito

                  If you take a long walk on the beach or a long bush hike I agree that a mask is more hinder than help. However, in an urban area where you might be walking in and out of buildings and use public transport, for example, it makes sense not to play with the mask and be masked all the time. The other thing to remember is to keep your hands and fingers away from your face, mask or no mask; eyes are a known entry point for bugs (and dust).

                  I think it is better to turn this into a good consistent habit than potentially confuse people with various areas or zones with different rules and stringency settings. Similarly, always wear a seatbelt, not just when you go on a public road. It is the habit that does the trick.

          • mauī

            Interestingly also, the left accused the virus of only spreading at right wing Trump rallies, somehow the BLM rallies had natural immunity smiley

            Tens of thousands of people gathered across Australia for the Black Lives Matter rallies earlier this month but there has not been a spike in cases similar to Melbourne in any other city.


            • arkie

              One of the main differences between those two protests is at the BLM marches the vast majority of people were masked.

              Another is the subsequent development and spread of the much more infectious Delta variant.

              We shall see in a month or so though won't we?

              • joe90

                And IIRC, BLM protesters weren't defying lockdown orders and in the main and despite not being mandated to, they were masked.

              • McFlock

                A lot of the BLM protests also had some conscious spacing. Obviously at the police lines that all went to shit, but it minimised the time in close proximity to infected folks.

                I'd also be intrigued to see how local BLM protests were (i.e. the proportion of out-of-towners) vs say Sturgis or Spring Break or the insurrection.

    • Anne 4.3

      Pack em off to a desert island and leave em to shout and holler to their heart's content. They aren't allowed to return until they repent for their recalcitrant ways. 😉

      • Rosemary McDonald 4.3.1

        Anne. Don't be too confident that your shot is going to afford long term protection. The biggest Pfizer laboratory on the planet now reports Pfizer efficacy at 16% or those who got their last dose in April.

        Concerns about the long term efficacy and safety of these 'vaccines' and the fact that we have had it drummed into us that they, and many of the other protocols, are our only hope of beating Te Virus have been growing in much of the world's population. Especially those who have good cause to not trust those who rule.

        Might be time to tone down the opprobrium and think about how we all move into the future on this.

        • Andre

          Meanwhile in the US, covid has turned into a pandemic of the unvaccinated, with breakthrough cases among the vaccinated being very rare.


          I've yet to see any analysis of why Israel is seeing much higher caseloads of mild covid among vaccinated people compared to the US where breakthrough cases are extremely rare. But it could be something as simple as Israel is just looking much harder for them.

          • Subliminal

            This may help to explain it:

            As of May 1, 2021, CDC transitioned from monitoring all reported vaccine breakthrough cases to focus on identifying and investigating only hospitalized or fatal cases due to any cause. This shift will help maximize the quality of the data collected on cases of greatest clinical and public health importance.

            It seems the CDC is more focused on legitimizing the opening up "strategy" than actual public health.

            The CDC could provide updates on serious cases versus mild/asymptomatic cases among the fully and partly vaccinated. Or are we to believe the CDC is less good at data than the Bureau of Labor Statistics, which has no trouble publishing multiple unemployment indices?

            And there do appear to be meaningful numbers of fully vaccinated people who are testing positive. When I mentioned this issue this evening, our aide, who also works part time in a local hospital, said an RN in her ward had just tested positive despite having had two shots and being >2 weeks past the second. I have more reports from MDs all over the country but was asked to hold back one more week on publishing anecdata to make sure this troubling trend looked to be sustained.

            But as you can see, now thanks to the CDC, MDs will be left only with anecdata.

          • joe90

            Morgan describes the misery of being infected despite his double vaccination.


          • Treetop

            Does the categorisation of Covid cases now need a separate column vaccinated and non vaccinated, same with deaths?

            There is some difficulty in doing stats for those who want vaccination but are unvaccinated.

            • Andre

              I'm quite confident the various health authorities are keeping close tabs on that. To work out when to recommend booster jabs and to whom, and/or whether modified recipes are needed for boosters. For instance, if it's found in the US that those jabbed with the single dose J&J/Janssen jab are over-represented in the hospitalisation/death statistics, they may recommend a booster for those that got that vaccination.

              But if that data is publicly available, I don't know where it is, and I'm not motivated right now to go looking for it.

          • SPC
            1. The Pfizer vaccine wanes in effectiveness in preventing infection after 6 months – Israel is vulnerable because they vaccinated early in the year.

            2. Israel vaccinated people 3 weeks apart. There is stronger effectiveness at 6-12 weeks. The UK got better results mixing Pfizer and Astra Zeneca 6-12 weeks apart (though initially there were more infections of those on one dose).

            3. Israel is now providing booster shots of the Pfizer vaccine.

            4. For mine we might find that a longer gap between dosing and mixing up the vaccines works best (2 doses and a booster or 6 in total of two different vaccines).

        • RedLogix

          Might be time to tone down the opprobrium and think about how we all move into the future on this.


          We know that COVID was very likely the result of a GoF lab experiment. As a result it's highly capable of responding to selection pressure – all that we've done is take it from the lab and continued with the experiment on a global scale. No single measure in isolation will work for this reason.

          I'm thinking we need to reconsider all the tools at our disposal.

          1. We know it doesn't transmit well in outdoor setting or in UV – it prefers the lab-like/bat cave settings that it came from.
          2. We know it's less prevalent in summer and is less severe, like most respiratory illnesses if your Vit D levels are optimal.
          3. We have a number of low-cost, low-risk anti-virals that probably reduce severe illness and deaths. And we have at least one vaccine technology that works in this respect as well, and at least one other more conventional type (Novovax) that is likely to have better uptake among the hestitant.
          4. We know that three week isolations work.
          5. We know that given the opportunity case tracking works.

          Combine all of these tools simultaneously. Prepare the entire world for a month in the next northern hemisphere summer for a mass COVID extinction event (ambiguous choice of words I know).

          One month of zero international or interstate travel globally. Zero.

          Everyone is either indoors in a family bubble or outdoors away from crowds. Plan for a month long camping holiday if possible, get out of the cities, spread out in whatever manner is available to you. Plan all this well in advance.

          Everyone has food and supplies to last the month without shopping. Mingle bubbles in emergencies only and preferably outdoors.

          Everyone is prepped with either the vaccine of their choice at optimum dose, or is prepped to adequate VitD level (this takes weeks to achieve) and access to an anti-viral protocol they’re willing to comply with.

          Critical services workers, water, power, emergency responders and medical people live within a planned bubble of their own for the month. Routine and frequent testing of people likely to be spreaders. Aggressive tracking of all cases.

          Pay particular attention to any potential animal host reservoirs, especially minks and ferrets.

          I'm under no illusion that a coordinated project at this scale seems almost impossible, but the only barrier to achieving it is a matter of political will. What I've outlined above is only the bare-bones – there would be a myriad details and challenges – but striking COVID with every tool we have at once, globally, is now our best shot at defeating it.

          • Treetop

            What you suggest will reduce cases.

            Were governments better prepared in the 1960s from a nuclear attack than they are from Covid transmission in 2021?

          • Subliminal

            We know that COVID was very likely the result of a GoF lab experiment. As a result it's highly capable of responding to selection pressure – all that we've done is take it from the lab and continued with the experiment on a global scale

            I would say that the majority scientific (i.e. not politicised) position would still be from the wild. Your "we know" would make this the first major epidemic that escaped from the lab contrasted with from the wild Sars, Mers, H1N1.Swine flu, Ebola, HIV…

            Some good debunking of the GoF theory:

            Estimates of the timing of the most recent common ancestor of SARS-CoV-2 made with current sequence data point to emergence of the virus in late November 2019 to early December 201923, compatible with the earliest retrospectively confirmed cases24. Hence, this scenario presumes a period of unrecognized transmission in humans between the initial zoonotic event and the acquisition of the polybasic cleavage site. Sufficient opportunity could have arisen if there had been many prior zoonotic events that produced short chains of human-to-human transmission over an extended period. This is essentially the situation for MERS-CoV, for which all human cases are the result of repeated jumps of the virus from dromedary camels, producing single infections or short transmission chains that eventually resolve, with no adaptation to sustained transmission25.

            In theory, it is possible that SARS-CoV-2 acquired RBD mutations (Fig. 1a) during adaptation to passage in cell culture, as has been observed in studies of SARS-CoV11. The finding of SARS-CoV-like coronaviruses from pangolins with nearly identical RBDs, however, provides a much stronger and more parsimonious explanation of how SARS-CoV-2 acquired these via recombination or mutation19.

            The acquisition of both the polybasic cleavage site and predicted O-linked glycans also argues against culture-based scenarios. New polybasic cleavage sites have been observed only after prolonged passage of low-pathogenicity avian influenza virus in vitro or in vivo17. Furthermore, a hypothetical generation of SARS-CoV-2 by cell culture or animal passage would have required prior isolation of a progenitor virus with very high genetic similarity, which has not been described. Subsequent generation of a polybasic cleavage site would have then required repeated passage in cell culture or animals with ACE2 receptors similar to those of humans, but such work has also not previously been described. Finally, the generation of the predicted O-linked glycans is also unlikely to have occurred due to cell-culture passage, as such features suggest the involvement of an immune system18.

            • RedLogix

              All the circumstantial evidence clearly points to the lab origin. And in the final analysis the only evidence that will matter is a clear cut chain of animal and human hosts clearly showing the sequence of events of how the virus moved from bats to humans. Nothing else will suffice to ‘debunk’ anything. Indeed whenever I see anyone use that word I immediate think 'someone with an agenda they aren't willing to be honest about'.

              Zoonotic transmission is actually quite rare because it requires a virus to master two separate evolutionary tricks at the same time. One is to learn how to infect a new host, and the other quite different one is how to become transmissible between the new host. It's incredibly unlikely that any single mutation event would enable both tricks to happen at the same time, but what we do see is a sequence of mutations that learn how to infect humans first, and then latter become good at moving between people. We found this exact chain for HIV, the original SARs , MERs and a few others.

              Zoonotic transmission may be rare, but it is real and we know how to find the signature evidence for it in the genetic history. Produce this for COVID and you'll have your argument. Until then the preponderance of circumstantial evidence lies with the lab. In line of course with their own published documents and the well known, fully verified history of many other lab accidents – which are much more commonplace.

              It’s why the Obama administration banned GoF work in the first place.

              • Subliminal

                Except that the "exact" chain is not so easily established. Dealing with evolution always entails probability. The Ebola virus took a very long time to trace back to its origins and did not ivolve any intermediary species or at least not one that has yet been discovered. You seem to fail to understand that all theories of transmission are just that, theory. The explanation for Ebola is the theory that a virus has many new contacts from bat host to human before there is any success with gaining entry to a new species. But it is undeniable that evolution will allow a virus to "learn" to adapt to infecting a new species given sufficient opportunities. From the above source:

                When we first started this research, the goal was to sample many, many bats from a wide range of species. It's very challenging to find a virus circulating in a bat population—it's like finding a needle in a haystack.

                We suspect they pass Ebola around among themselves, but that the virus may be seasonal and that infected animals do not shed the virus for very long. We think it's similar to that brief period where you are sick with a cold and coughing and sneezing. That period quickly passes, and you still "have a cold," but are not infecting others.

                When we are out catching, testing, and releasing bats, we know the chances of finding Ebola is very small, so we need to sample many animals in hopes of catching the right bat at the right time. As we go to each location for few days for sampling, we need to get lucky to catch a bat at the exact moment it's carrying and shedding the virus.

                You say that zoonotic transmission is rare??! yet we have the lists given above and you are proposing Covd as the first Gof release? Simply because The Wuhan lab is in Wuhan.

                • RedLogix

                  Except that the "exact" chain is not so easily established

                  OK so when you have established that, like we already have for a number of other zoonotic origin diseases, let us know. Then you'll have an argument. Until then I'm going with the preponderance of other evidence.

                  And putting up papers dating from over well over a year ago, from authors who fail to declare their obvious conflicts of interest isn't impressive. Besides it's argument basically says that the intermediary virus's that would have been necessary are not known or described.

                  Which might be plausible if we could have confidence that the Wuhan labs had made all of their data available for scrutiny. That would be the obvious defense if they were certain of their position. Instead quite the opposite has occurred.

                  And finally, if for example a novel virus had first arisen in say Porirua, of the same family that NZ virologists had published papers on in years prior – would anyone pretend that our own ESR Institute could not possibly have been involved?

                  • Subliminal

                    Apart from unsubstantiated adhomonym attacks on the authors do you have anything to add to the science? You state no relation to anything in the wild as though that makes it a fact. Where did it come from then? You are saying that the Wuhan lab is so far ahead of the rest of the world that they are able to model and build viral frames and furin cleavage sites that no other modelling in the world has predicted?? Yet they have secretly predicted AND built it? You take no notice of the length of time and painstaking effort to locate the source of ebola and use that of proof of conspiracy?? On top of that you also need to include the WHO as another group who "fail to declare their obvious conflicts of interest" since they are still in favour of zoonotic transfer. And on the ESR false equivalence what a crock that is! The Wuhan lab was working on other bat virus strains of which there are literally thousands. Next you'll be saying the proximity of Porton Downs proves the Brits poisoned the Skripals!

              • Incognito

                It’s why the Obama administration banned GoF work in the first place.

                Huh?? Why?

                This backgrounder might help you answer wink

                Gain-of-Function Research: Ethical Analysis


                • RedLogix

                  That document goes into a lot more detail than I did but the argument is the same, in most cases the hazard of GoF work was greater than the potential gain.

          • Incognito

            We know that COVID was very likely the result of a GoF lab experiment. As a result it's highly capable of responding to selection pressure – all that we've done is take it from the lab and continued with the experiment on a global scale. No single measure in isolation will work for this reason.

            I’m surprised and disappointed to see you making these highly debatable assertions. Together, they form a failed ontological argument because the premise is much weaker than you assert. They also fail on each of the logical steps and conclusions. In addition, to suggest that we (somebody) took it from the lab into the wide world to continue a (designed and thus deliberate) experiment is stuff you’d expect to hear from conspiracy theorists and film & fiction writers in Hollywood. I’m surprised that they have not made a new movie about it yet; I cannot stand Gwyneth Paltrow and Contagion is apparently back on the watch lists.


            • swordfish

              In addition, to suggest that we (somebody) took it from the lab into the wide world to continue a (designed and thus deliberate) experiment is stuff you’d expect to hear from conspiracy theorists and film & fiction writers in Hollywood.

              Pretty sure that isn't Redlogix's argument.

              • arkie

                We know that COVID was very likely the result of a GoF lab experiment. As a result it's highly capable of responding to selection pressure – all that we've done is take it from the lab and continued with the experiment on a global scale.

                https://thestandard.org.nz/open-mike-25-07-2021/#comment-1805161 (my italics)

                Certainly reads like it.

                • RedLogix

                  Not my problem if you read the words 'deliberate or designed' when clearly they aren't there. It really speaks to your motivation not mine.

                  • arkie

                    I'm merely attempting to parse what you write. Be clearer if you want to avoid confusion.

                    Or you could infer a motivated reasoning. Not really helpful or productive to the discussion, but hey.

                  • Subliminal

                    "we know" implies that this is more than just a reckon on your part or is it only that? If its something that you have learned from somewhere perhaps you could be courteous enough to supply a link.

              • Incognito

                You may have missed the “In addition” at the beginning of the sentence? In any case, RedLogix could have made it clearer what he means when he says that a lab-based experiment (i.e. something carefully designed with a specific purpose, often to test a hypothesis) is taken from the lab and continued and where the it changes from being a controlled experiment to an uncontrolled pandemic. Feel free to add your own analysis instead of splaining what RedLogix did or did not mean since you are “pretty sure” yourself. I can’t wait!

              • Subliminal

                Except that designed is definitely part of his argument. What else does GoF mean? And given the research in the link posted above as debunked, it also implies deliberate. It is stated:

                As noted above, the RBD of SARS-CoV-2 is optimized for binding to human ACE2 with an efficient solution different from those previously predicted7,11. Furthermore, if genetic manipulation had been performed, one of the several reverse-genetic systems available for betacoronaviruses would probably have been used19. However, the genetic data irrefutably show that SARS-CoV-2 is not derived from any previously used virus backbone2 (bold mine)

                That means secret research with a very long lead time and no publishing. Why? Definitely not public health. So a deliberate secret conspiracy.

                The original oracle for this trash was Steve Bannon and Breitbart as outlined in the NYT. This is the archived version:

                By September, Dr. Yan had abandoned caution. She appeared in the United States on Fox News making the unsubstantiated claim to millions that the coronavirus was a bio-weapon manufactured by China.

                Overnight, Dr. Yan became a right-wing media sensation, with top advisers to President Trump and conservative pundits hailing her as a hero. Nearly as quickly, her interview was labeled on social media as containing “false information,” while scientists rejected her research as a polemic dressed up in jargon.

          • SPC

            With Vitamin D, it's not so much it reduces chance of infection but a sufficient amount is part of a functioning immune response. Those with low levels of Vitamin D have worse outcomes once infected – so a sufficiency of this is part of good health (older people and those "browner" develop less on the skin and need supplements to keep levels up throughout the year)(some/most people get enough from the sun).

            I would have Whanau Ora handing out Vitamin D supplements …and roll out the premier diabetes 2 drug to keep this group out of hospital after any infection.

            And development of home kits (testing and an anti-viral for the coronavirus to take) will turn up if this lasts.

    • bwaghorn 4.4

      Scoop them up and quarantine the thickos, might not stop them infecting people with their stupid, but will help stop the spread.

      • Treetop 4.4.1

        The NSW protest will be a location of Covid transmission.

      • Drowsy M. Kram 4.4.2

        The Mouse Problem
        Well speaking as a member of the Stock Exchange I would suck their brains out with a straw, sell the widows and orphans and go into South American Zinc.

        • Andre

          Hey, DMK, if I remember rightly, you'll have had your first batch of microchips already installed, yeah? How's your phone signal these days?

          Around my place the reception is really patchy, so I'm desperate for anything that might give it a boost. Hopefully I'll get my chips soon after bookings for my age group open in a couple of weeks.

  5. Foreign waka 5

    Of concern is this:


    NZ education does not produce any nurses, doctors, professionals at the rate the country needs and yet the ones coming here are are considering leaving again.

    "It is not just the medical profession either. People with choices are increasingly beginning to wonder if they should move somewhere else while they still have options."

    There seem to be the opinion that NZ is paradise and people have to be grateful living here as there is no better option.

    From the article:

    In April Immigration Minister ​Kris Faafoi told RNZ he had received advice on what should happen with the EOI queue, and expected to make a decision soon.

    After a recently announced "reset":

    “I watched the immigration reset, man it was depressing. I couldn’t believe what I was seeing.”

    ​Kyle MacFarlane couldn’t believe it because he was initially paid a relocation grant to move here. Both he and his wife ​Jade MacFarlane are qualified maths teachers, a speciality in hot-demand.

    “End of April there were 901 teachers, 235 doctors, 114 electrical workers, 26 dentists, and 17 vets in the queue towards the end of May”. And NZ needs them.

    Shortage of professionals will bite economically and progressing energy alternatives, realigning use of land and agriculture, manufacturing etc. so lets see what the next 2 years bring.

    • Treetop 5.1

      It will not be hard for a doctor or a nurse to find employment due to the death rate from Covid among the professions and burnout.

      Like soldiers going to war and returning home, when Covid is reduced to a mild illness the psychological effects will be fully known.

    • Sanctuary 5.2

      IMHO, the current immigration policy is influenced by a general desire to clamp down of immigration from the developing world, the need to maintain high levels of economic confidence during the pandemic via low unemployment and caution around the need to absorb returning New Zealanders into the workforce.

      Until there is a better idea on the roadmap out of covid internationally foreign residents and migrants are going to be caught in the covid crossfire.

      • Foreign waka 5.2.1

        All they are asking is for certainty so that they can build their lives around it.

        NZ will loose their skilled workforce, no doubt about that. But hey, we know that the booming industry – housing – has secured almost everybody in the government. Not to mention the guaranteed pension that is not so meager either. What do they have to loose?


        • Incognito

          Dim-witted comment taking potshots at all MPs who happen to own property, as only a simpleton would do. Presumably, you don’t own any property and have few professional skills, which may explain some of your ill-directed nonsense.

          • Foreign waka

            Oh you again. I rest my case.

            • Incognito

              And again, you have nothing. Thought so. Ever tried making a genuine political point instead of raving and ranting and taking cheap shots at your pet pests? For the record, I have a direct interest in INZ sorting out this mess before it is too late and I see good and highly-skilled people packing up and leaving in my neck of the woods. However, I’m not lashing out willy-nilly at every moving object that comes within range like you and a few others do a on regular basis. Please grow up and get a grip.

              • RedLogix

                I can confirm something like this myself. Just last night I had a long conversation with an old friend back in NZ who is right now planning on how to move his entire extended family to Australia.

                These are all educated, professional people – and I'd hazard a guess most of them voted left in the last election.

                • Incognito

                  That too, but I’m talking of non-NZ residents who are between a rock and a hard place because of INZ is missing in action and has been for a while. To borrow an over-used phrase: it’s a shambles.

              • Foreign waka

                I am a foreigner living in NZ for about 40 years now, had 2 businesses, never dodged tax, never underpaid my employees. I have not taken a single cent of any tax dollar then nor now unlike some that seem to be thinking it is legit to take 16 billion dollars out of the hands of hard working families and "distribute' the many to their mates.

                I think I qualify to make comments by knowing how the system worked back when the preferred professions were final and not dependent on the money you can "bribe" yourself into the country with.

                You seem to not understand about the impact immigrating to another country makes on a person if denied to settle with dignity and having their support system around them, their family. I work with a person who hasn't seen his family for almost 3 years. This is, by any stretch of imagination inhuman. I watch as he gets through depressive bouts and still tries to "pay" back the goodwill he received – perceived- from this country. His contribution in terms of productivity and work is fantastic. I have in 40 years not met one kiwi working as hard as he is. But yet, he has to suffer.

                If you have an interest in the immigration system than take it from me, some good ol fashion honesty will go a long way. Its a life and dead decision to settle somewhere else, not a work holiday as some students might treat it to be. Immigrants will every day look at the news on their status. This can wear you down and at a certain point, hope of any progress disappears. An application like that has to be treated with the respect and integrity it deserves. Any interest of sorting "this mess" as you put it needs to have some certainty inserted into the visa scheme, definite deadlines are set, no wishy washy we tell you when we feel like it – depending on the operators attitude. Fairness when deciding income levels (what profession and what is their entry level income) and certainly questioning the employer is a must. Some as we know, are very skilled to use the system to their advantage exploiting immigrants. An over reaction to that behavior does have consequences. Value the contribution these people bring to NZ.

                I hope this has satisfied your need for explanations and I am certainly not lashing out but rather commenting to the point. The time of being kind has for me and so many long gone.

                • Incognito

                  All commenters here feel qualified to some degree to comment here. This is a non sequitur.

                  I did not ask or challenge you to give an explanation, by way of providing your CV or track record with a little bit of back-patting.

                  You’re clearly capably of intelligent coherent comment. So, why pepper your comments with speaking notes and populist BS that appear to come straight from PDF and/or similar ilk? These are not political points, so expect to be pulled up on them.

                  Why even bring up capital gains and MPs owning properties when the thread is about immigration? You were derailing.

                  Who took $16 billion and gave it to their mates? If you’re referring to the Wage Subsidy Scheme by the Government it appears this was pretty legal. Who benefitted (AKA cui bono)? Who should not have benefitted? Give us facts, not just hot air or rants plucked from your orifice; for that we have MSM shock-jocks, Social Media, and right-wing blogs galore.

                  Who is/are trying to bribe themselves into the country? Strong claims require strong evidence, but you offer nothing but hot air.

                  So, how about it, will you lift your game or continue to play games that insult our intelligence?

                  • Foreign Waka

                    Oh my god, I just hope you know how you sound like. Mr. Know it all and being above station.

                    You clearly have a chip on your shoulder and obviously no one wants to tell you.

                    Don't worry, I wont be joining this forum again.

    • KJT 5.3

      New Zealand could have produced enough professional people.

      Unfortunately the option of importing them, and saving training and wages costs, has been prefered for decades.

      Biting us on the bum now.

      I have to admit to a bit of Shadenfraude. The employers that have relied on bleating to the immigration department, while youngsters in Northland have had no show of even getting on the first rungs of apprenticeships and training. Until last year.

      • Ngungukai 5.3.1

        Neoliberal ideology, don't educate or train your own people and import immigrants. Remember the clown Dr Nick Smith who scrapped the Apprenticeship Scheme which produced world class trades people.

  6. Pete 6

    Serious question: Why does NZ education not "produce nurses, doctors, professionals at the rate the country needs?"

    • Sabine 6.1

      They produce the numbers needed, and then these numbers in many cases move overseas for further studies or better paying jobs.

    • Foreign waka 6.2

      NZ always – meaning decades – relied on professional people in the main areas of education, health and infrastructure, engineering to cross seminate skills and knowledge.

      But the current income offered in these sectors is nothing compared to accountants and commerce students. Give me a guess what the domestic student is choosing? Or next up art and music.

      Meanwhile, the so called civilised NZ is highly dependant on those mentioned professions and here we are, babies delivered on rural roads, nursing students referring to their environment as "soviet" whatever that means but it certainly doesn't sound good. Education, especially mathematic exam outcomes in comparison to other countries leaves me just wondering when we start using stones to make fire. Ooops, physics another victim of the holy grail of fortune.

    • Ngungukai 6.3

      We have had morons running the country both National & Labour, serious answer.

  7. Herodotus 7

    So from this morning interview with Grant Robertson, even if the NZ adult population is 100% vaccinated we will still have bubbles with Aust that pop, so what about the remainder of the world ?? !! 12mins in. So what is the end position ?? I cannot find anywhere online to see our government communicating what the position will need to be when "normality" will return or even what the new "normality" will be.


    • Sanctuary 7.1

      The constant cries of "what is the covid end position?" is akin to children sitting in the back seat continually asking "are we there yet?" when their parents don't have a proper map or know (except very roughly) how long the trip is going to take.

      • Andre 7.1.1

        … in a massive storm with flooding and slips causing road closures and detours as they are driving along.

        I see it more as those criers are looking for a future stick to beat the government with when what actually happens is inevitably different to the plan, because the actual circumstances are inevitably different to what was anticipated when the plan was made.

      • weka 7.1.2

        how long is the trip going to take (very roughly)?

        Better for the adults to be honest: we have to move house, we don’t know where we’re going to be living next or when we will find a new place, but we have to move in the right general direction or things will be very bad.

      • RedLogix 7.1.3

        On the other hand treating the nation as children, while the 'grown ups' pretend they know where they're going is a gambit with a limited shelf-life.

        This time last year most people where hoping it would be 'over by Christmas'. Now it's clear this road trip won't be over this year or even next.

      • Herodotus 7.1.4

        At least the children in the car know where the destination is they are traveling to…
        IMO the government wants to continue to take the team of 5m willingly along this journey, then it would be nice to know what landmarks we are going to pass. As time passes having a nebulous direction risks losing the team of 5m as what was inferred as to what life would be like becomes ever increasingly out of reach or was never intended. e.g. Why also should the government still be sending out messages in tourism that we need to hang in there for a time and NZ will open up again. If this is not the case then, how about transitioning this sector now ?? And tourism is not the only sector in this position other sectors that require labour sourced offshore.

      • Patricia Bremner 7.1.5

        yes Quite!!

    • weka 7.2

      I've been asking this most of the pandemic, and have yet to see either a government position, or any credible explanation from elsewhere.

      My understanding is that it's just not possible to say. Covid19 is a novel infection, so it's taken time to research what it does, how it spreads, what limits spread, vaccination development and how vaccines function at the programme level.

      The vaccines aren't like some other vaccines where once vaxxed you can't get the illness. Apparently we still don't have good data on transmission among the vaccinated population. We also don't yet know if regular vaccinations will be needed to stay ahead of variants. And if we do, I suspect there is unclarity in the public mind that it might be like seasonal flu (I think it's a mistake to compare it to seasonal flu).

      We're not yet vaccinating children, so there is still a vulnerability there in terms of disability and death as well as transmission.

      We also don't know yet if countries like the UK are going to increase production of variants and if that will happen faster than we can produce new vaccines.

      Personally, I assume there is no going back to normal, and I wish we would start adapting to that and how to work with the benefits of that especially for climate/ecology action. Relocalising economies with an eye on how to stay connected with the rest of the world in new ways seems sensible.

      • Drowsy M. Kram 7.2.1

        Personally, I assume there is no going back to normal, and I wish we would start adapting to that and how to work with the benefits of that especially for climate/ecology action. Relocalising economies with an eye on how to stay connected with the rest of the world in new ways seems sensible.

        Hear hear Weka – a little (preferably voluntary) behaviour modification now will serve us all well in the the long run, however long that may be.

      • Rosemary McDonald 7.2.2

        Why are mRNA vaccines so exciting?

        Never before have mRNA vaccines…

        (despite what the Experts state)

        — …such as the two-dose Pfizer/BioNTech and Moderna vaccines that have now received emergency use authorization from the FDA — been approved for use in any disease.

        Six months later and we know now that these 'vaccines' do not provide long term immunity from Covid. After six months the protection from getting infected is down to 16%. This means the injected can also infect others.

        Booster shots? There's a stench of 'suck it and see' here…this is an experiment on a world wide basis using an experimental technology with no long term safety data and no long term benefit with regards to the global population. Yes, for now, the injected might avoid serious illness and hospitalisation, but this will not mean they can travel throughout the world without a care until everyone is similarly 'protected'. And that is never going to happen.

        [reformatted to make clear what is quote and what is commentary – weka]

        • weka

          what's the source for the 16%?

            • Treetop

              NZ is the ideal place to do research on the Pfizer vaccine once everyone who wants to be vaccinated is vaccinated. This would be reliant on having no bubbles.

              Once everyone who opts for vaccination is vaccinated then open the borders selectively.

              • joe90

                Too late.

                Israel paid a premium, locked in an early supply of Pfizer-BioNTech vaccines and struck a unique deal: vaccines for data.

                The nation of some 9 million promised Pfizer a swift vaccine rollout, along with data from Israel's centralized trove of medical statistics to study "whether herd immunity is achieved after reaching a certain percentage of vaccination coverage in Israel," according to their agreement.


                • Treetop

                  I find the links you post are relevant. A second lot of data could be used as a comparison with Israel.

              • weka

                You want to risk NZ’s covid free status for a experiment?

                • Treetop

                  open the borders selectively

                  I am not a fan of the trans – Tasman bubble because everyone who wants to be vaccinated is not vaccinated.

                  At some point the border/s will reopen. It is how the borders reopen.

                  I actually think the trans – Tasman bubble is an experiment.

                  “This would be reliant on having no bubbles.” By this I meant having no travel bubbles with any country until vaccination in NZ is complete.

                  • McFlock

                    An experiment in shutting up whingers, maybe.

                    It was a reasonable move while Aus had a handle on covid. Moderately interested in how they screwed the pooch – my impression is that NSW govt delayed responding, and dragged Victoria down with it. But I could be wrong.

                    • Sabine

                      that plus slow roll out of vaccination and take up of vaccination.

                      a handful of that she'll be right attitude on all sides.

                  • weka

                    "By this I meant having no travel bubbles with any country until vaccination in NZ is complete."

                    This presupposes that the vaccine is effective enough at preventing community transmission in NZ, and that this effect lasts over time. I don't think we know this yet. Hence the government can't say 'this is how it will play out'. Many people still see the covid vaccine as absolute protection rather than being a process we are having to build as we go along.

                    • Andre

                      Preventing community transmission isn't the criterion I'm most interested in. I'm mostly interested in how effective the vaccine is at preventing severe illness and death.

                      Particularly since it seems likely we've got enough outright anti-vaxers to make achieving community immunity a forlorn hope at any realistically achievable level of vaccine efficacy. Coz it's not just the number of anti-vaxers, it's that the anti-vaxers also make the decision to not vaccinate for the minors in their "care".

                    • weka

                      Do you think the government should open the borders without herd immunity?

                    • Andre

                      If the vaccine continues to be highly effective at preventing severe disease and death, as it now appears to be even putting the worst spin on reports from Israel and the UK (ie that for someone vaccinated it's roughly equivalent to the flu or less), then yes I would strongly support opening the borders after everyone that wanted to be vaccinated has had a reasonable opportunity to get vaccinated. Even without being anywhere close to community immunity.

                    • Treetop

                      I do not see the vaccine as being absolute protection.

    • Foreign waka 7.3

      This will depend on what the vaccination rate of each country is. Governments need to make a decision, not just for this new virus but for any other that might hit.

      Offer vaccinations to every citizen, put a timeframe around it and then go "back to normal". There needs to be a line in the sand and every person has to take responsibility over their own health. If they don't want to be vaccinated let them sign a refusal and if they get infected, they have to cope with it.

      If government don't do that it can create unrest (as we see) as this becomes a politicized issue with the connotation of a dictatorship in the making. In some minds anarchy is the better option.

      • Drowsy M. Kram 7.3.1

        If they don't want to be vaccinated let them sign a refusal and if they get infected, they have to cope with it.

        My preference would be that those who choose not to be vaccinated can access the NZ public health service – should be a universal service for all citizens/PRs, imho.

        • Andre

          But they sure do make it tough to choke down defending the idea of universality of care, even to those suffering utterly idiotic self-inflicted harm.

          That the self-inflicted harm is so idiotic and easily preventable makes it a lot tougher psychologically on those that end up trying to keep them alive.

  8. Sabine 8

    Normal died the night we went into lockdown. We are still playing a game of pretend of 'normal' i.e. Americas Cup, Rugby, International Cricket, Olympics mainly, but even that is starting to crumble.

    What is today is the best normal we can get.

    • McFlock 8.1


      Anyone looking for firm exit timeframes or criteria hasn't been watching the rest of the world.

      Reminds me of the old days when you didn't really know how long the rain would last. Now google says it's forecast to clear by 2pm, but back in the day it could last an hour or a week and you'd never know lol

  9. joe90 9

    Sociopaths of #PlagueIsland

    • Treetop 9.1

      There is so much confusion in the UK when it comes to Covid management that people are switching off or feeling pissed off when trying to follow the rules.

      • joe90 9.1.1

        Yeah, people are cheering for a woman proposing the summary execution of medicos because they're switching off or feeling pissed off when trying to follow the rules.



        • Treetop

          Cheering on a person who is inciting harm, there would be a psychological or criminal term for this.

  10. Andre 10

    Who could possibly have seen this coming? Dude suckered by The Former Guy And The Swampthings built a section of the wall, didn't get paid for it, and now he's trying to sell. He's pitching it as a very long bike path next to a high fence.

    Fisher told Bloomberg he thought building part of Trump’s promised nearly 2,000-mile border wall would be “fun.” Trump’s project, he imagined, “would be remembered like the Hoover Dam.”

    So far it doesn’t look like a project for the history books. Fisher has been sued by the National Butterfly Center next to the Rio Grande, whose officials charge his wall could divert water and debris onto its land in a flood with dire consequences for butterflies.

    He was also sued by the U.S. International Boundary and Water Commission, which claims his barrier could divert water and end up displacing the U.S.-Mexico border.

    And once Joe Biden moved into the White House, the odds that America would “buy an unsanctioned border wall associated with an allegedly criminal enterprise helmed by Steve Bannon dropped significantly,” Bloomberg noted.


  11. Stephen D 11

    The marchers in Sydney and Melbourne reminded me of this Edgar Alan Poe story.


  12. Jenny how to get there 12


    Auckland Emergency Management

    What Auckland Emergency Management does

    Auckland Emergency Management comprises of Auckland Council working in partnership with emergency services and other organisations to ensure the effective delivery of civil defence emergency management.

    Auckland Emergency Management:

    • coordinates and plans activities related to hazard and emergency management
    • encourages cooperation and joint action within the region
    • determines the aspirations of our community
    • examines the risks and hazards to the Auckland region and prioritises each hazard.

    Auckland Emergency Management hazards on their website are listed below

    Auckland is affected by natural hazards that occur:

    • frequently, such as flooding, coastal erosion (including the effects of sea-level rise), freshwater erosion and land instability; and
    • less frequently, such as wildfires, volcanic activity, tsunami, earthquakes and meteorological hazards such as cyclones, tornadoes and drought.

    All of these hazards can affect people, property and the wider environment.


    I am no expert, but at a guess I would say that the odds of a deadly heatwave striking Auckland within the next ten years is possibly likelier than a volcanic eruption.

    Heatwave should be on the list of disasters that could strike our city.

    It pays to be prepared.

    Modern building codes against the spread of fire, installation of smoke detectors, earthquake strengthening (or demolition) of at risk buildings. all helps in the prevention of needless deaths when disaster strikes.

    We try to make our urban spaces as safe as possible against these obvious natural disasters, but as climate change worsens, our cities may becoming death traps to a more insidious killer.

    When the climate disaster really hits, we need to be prepared for this as well.

    Of all natural disasters relating to the climate, hurricanes, tornadoes,, floods, bush fires, heatwaves are the biggest killer.


    With the growing popularity of apartment living, and more people living in our inner cities

    How prepared are we to deal with killler heat in our cities?

    Learnings from America

    Trees, green spaces, are vital.

    Subsidised air conditioning is a real thing.

    Public air conditioned cooling spaces need to be planned for.

    The installation of outdoor public water misters in some problem areas.

    Civil defence planning and coordinaton with local community groups to check on vulnerable people and provide relief and rescue.

    All these things will act to prevent needless deaths in an urban heatwave.

    A Triple Whammy Has Left Many Inner-City Neighborhoods Highly Vulnerable to Soaring Temperatures

    Climate change, heat islands and disinvestment have led New York to subsidize air conditioners and Phoenix to cool street corridors and public housing.

    By James Bruggers

    July 23, 2021

    “We’re watching the trailer for the climate change disaster film that we’re going to screen very soon.”

    ….The city has also subsidized 74,000 air conditioners for low-income, elderly residents and is spending tens of millions to plant trees, as part of a “cool neighborhoods” program that also includes outdoor water misters.

    …..Phoenix and Arizona State University say they are developing a system that all cities could use to benchmark heat management.

    ……most cities, will need to do even more to keep their cities livable, according to experts, advocates and city officials.


    My emphasis J.

  13. greywarshark 13

    Why all the one liners Jenny HTGT? Radio presents text like that possibly because the ahnnouncers have been reading from it and it makes for clarity for them. Here it ends up looking like a shattered paragraph that needs sweeping up. It would make your comments easier to run an eye over to see if there were new thoughts or reports.

  14. Incognito 14

    Wasting Taxpayers’ money on useless PPE. But Boris has promised an independent public enquiry into the Government’s handling of the pandemic, the Government he leads or perhaps not …

    Taxpayers to bear Covid cost for decades to come, say MPs


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