Open mike 26/09/2023

99 comments on “Open mike 26/09/2023 ”

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1. Dennis Frank 1

   26 September 2023 at 6:19 am

   Judging by this RNZ review, the young politicians debate was fun: https://www.rnz.co.nz/news/election-2023/498767/sparks-fly-at-youth-debate-as-candidates-forced-to-defend-policies

   Host Anna Harcourt from Re: News did a good job keeping them all focused and in line, making good use of the buzzer and unafraid to step in when necessary… Williams appeared reluctant to defend the GST off fruit and vegetables policy, turning instead to Labour's free dental for under-30s, saying it would "mean people won't have to put off their essential healthcare until they can afford it"… Stanford also pivoted when asked about National's tax cuts, saying "these are all just bandages, the key thing we have to do is actually attack cost of living".

   Donoghue said with immigrants all going to the main centres, housing was part of the cost of living problem – and NZ First was wanting to restrict the number of migrants coming in… His intro skated over the party's priorities of wanting to stand up against "woke extremism", say no to co-governance, "put the K back into iwi", protect assets, and incentivise careers for those who stayed in New Zealand.

   During the rainbow issues segment, he was asked about the party's policy of removing "gender ideology" from curriculum, challenged over whether it really was an important issue. He justified it by saying parents are very concerned about "complex, sexual, inappropriate discussions happening at school", and referred to warnings from a right-leaning lobby group about primary school children being disciplined if they did not affirm other children's gender: "we can't shut people up because it hurts our feelings".

   Swarbrick interrupted, saying "I think you're talking about consequences, bro". She said the data showed trans people and children were more highly represented in mental ill health and suicide statistics, "and mate, it's driven by rhetoric from the likes of your party," to applause from the audience. Donoghue responded that "more people are transgendering, or transitioning, than ever before", blaming Swarbrick's rhetoric, to boos. Van Velden said we have to "agree to disagree".

   Stanford said the bathrooms issue was not a problem, and no school she's been to around the country had a problem with it – a sentiment panellists later agreed with, India Logan-Riley saying the whole topic appeared to be a wedge issue targeted by NZ First to drive division and stoke votes. All parties agreed more needed to be done to support people's mental health, though each seemed to have different suggestions for how to do so.

   The next segment took a bizarre turn, with a question over whether each candidate feared being killed by extreme weather caused by climate change. Donoghue was the only one to not fully raise his hand, explaining he'd "been hit by lightning, but no I'm not afraid". He said this was after an Iron Maiden concert in Rome – though it was, as Harcourt noted, nothing to do with climate change.

   Rather unfair of the god of heavy metal to zap a fan like that, I thought. However, since the dude survived the test he's likely to prove himself staunch in politics…
   • bwaghorn 1.1

     26 September 2023 at 7:26 am

     more people are transgendering, or transitioning, than ever before", blaming Swarbrick's rhetoric,

     This is a topic that needs serious attention, pubity was confusing enough when I went through it , Im as hetero as they get but it still took me a while to be sure, that was before the internet and schools telling me I could possibly be a number of things gender wise now!
     • Dennis Frank 1.1.1

       26 September 2023 at 7:45 am

       I agree it's a trending up thing. I'm all for self-determination. Your point about developmental confusion is a good one too re adolescence.

       College in the '60s was macho & as a sensitive but feisty lad I acquired an ability to copy the cool guys somewhat. They call it mimesis nowadays – a biological skill. So many in my class were pretending to be gay which I thought peculiar & that they were all kidding. I was so naive!
     • Nic the NZer 1.1.2

       26 September 2023 at 8:22 am

       Teenagers to young adults have a period of development where they differentiate from their parents and family and start associating with their chosen friend groups instead. This is where they tend to highlight (or present) their individual personalities and how they are different from their immediate family. This is sometimes known as the rebellious teenage phase.

       I suspect a lot (though not all) of gender non-conforming behavior within this age range is an example of this developmental phenomena myself. Probably similar with the development of gay teenagers personalities at the time, but that trait usually persists into adulthood.

       Unfortunately I found out about this while reading how Stefan Molyneux had been using his wife's counseling qualifications to offer internet counseling, and pushing young adults into family separation in practice.

       https://www.theguardian.com/lifeandstyle/2008/nov/15/family-relationships-fdr-defoo-cult
   • Molly 1.2

     26 September 2023 at 9:39 am

     "Swarbrick interrupted, saying "I think you're talking about consequences, bro". She said the data showed trans people and children were more highly represented in mental ill health and suicide statistics, "and mate, it's driven by rhetoric from the likes of your party," to applause from the audience."

     Data shows that those who declare a gender identity – often have co-morbidities that affect mental health. These are often not explored further when the approach is "gender affirming health care":

     https://www.transgendertrend.com/current-evidence/

     The Sweden National Board of Health and Welfare are now revising their treatment guidelines and have released a preliminary report. News coverage of this report reports that:

     “…people with gender dysphoria, especially young people, have a high incidence of concomitant psychiatric diagnoses, self-harming behavior or suicide attempts compared with the rest of the population.

     The diagnoses that stand out are depression, anxiety disorders, ADHD and autism. In the group of 13–17-year-olds who were registered as girls at birth and who were diagnosed with gender dysphoria, the comorbidity is greatest.”

     Of these, had:

     • 32.4 percent anxiety disorder
     • 28.9 percent some form of depressive disorder
     • 19.4 percent adhd
     • 15.2 percent autism

     That such a large proportion have concomitant psychiatric diagnoses is a factor that needs to be considered in more detail during the investigation of gender dysphoria”

     Swedish link here: https://www.vardfokus.se/samhalle/konsdysfori-som-diagnos-okar-kraftigt-bland-unga/

     It dismays me to continually read the irresponsible reference to suicide that many people use, despite providing no data, and against suicide prevention guidelines.

     An article on this issue:

     https://www.city-journal.org/article/reckless-and-irresponsible

     In 2017, the Movement Advancement Project (an LGBT advocacy group), the Johnson Family Foundation, and the American Foundation for Suicide Prevention coauthored a document titled “Talking About Suicide & LGBT Populations.” The nation’s leading LGBT advocacy groups officially endorsed it. These included the Human Rights Campaign, GLSEN, the Trevor Project (which focuses on suicide prevention), GLAAD, PFLAG, the Transgender Law Center, SAGE, the Center for American Progress, and the National LGBTQ Task Force. In a section titled “Guidelines for Talking About Suicide in Safe and Accurate Ways,” the document contains this recommendation:

     DON’T attribute a suicide death to a single factor (such as bullying or discrimination) or say that a specific anti-LGBT law or policy will “cause” suicide. Suicide deaths are almost always the result of multiple overlapping causes, including mental health issues that might not have been recognized or treated. Linking suicide directly to external factors like bullying, discrimination or anti-LGBT laws can normalize suicide by suggesting that it is a natural reaction to such experiences or laws. It can also increase suicide risk by leading at-risk individuals to identify with the experiences of those who have died by suicide.

     This recommendation couldn’t be clearer.
     • Dennis Frank 1.2.1

       26 September 2023 at 9:45 am

       Yes, you're quite right. More accuracy & care in diagnosis & treatment seems to be required. Folks are averse to complexity and will retreat into conventional simple-minded categorising given half a chance. It's normal to condone such human nature but public health necessitates transcendence of such trad normalcy.
     • psych nurse 1.2.2

       26 September 2023 at 10:51 am

       Where I practice five to ten percent of inpatients would be transgender at any given time.They all have commonalities. Female trans-gendering to male, Personality disorders, on the Autism spectrum, sexually abused as a child. Transitioning is simply a way of making yourself unattractive to predating males,
     • SPC 1.2.3

       26 September 2023 at 3:04 pm

       That such a large proportion have concomitant psychiatric diagnoses is a factor that needs to be considered in more detail during the investigation of gender dysphoria”

       Can you cite any of the LGBTQIA+group where this is not also the case?

       Historically it was because of the diagnosis by the profession and society that those not obedient to essential patriarchy in social and religious order of rule (cisgener heterosexual Pauline society) was abnormal.

       Alienation from land/mana and unemployment/poverty and related cycles of abuse and society gaslighjting have done the same for Maori.
   • Incognito 1.3

     26 September 2023 at 9:41 pm

     Your lengthy but lazy copypasta, with selective parts left out without any indication for the unsuspecting reader, just to make an inane comment at the very end!?

     Lift your game!
2. observer 2

   26 September 2023 at 7:40 am

   Another day, another ACT candidate showing how nasty they really are. How many is that now? It's hard to keep up.

   Unfortunately Stuff has removed easy access to many of its stories now, but here's a summary of their report:

   NZ election 2023 live: ACT's bad fortnight gets a bit worse as insiders lift lid on candidate process | Stuff.co.nz
3. Dennis Frank 3

   26 September 2023 at 8:31 am

   Zuck in 2021: "In the metaverse, you'll be able to do almost anything you can imagine".

   A moment of truth looms:

   On Wednesday the company holds its annual VR event called Meta Connect. It's a chance for Zuckerberg to again explain his reasoning for taking an extremely profitable social media company and diverting its focus to an extremely unprofitable VR venture.

   How unprofitable? Reality Labs – which as the name suggests is Meta's virtual and augmented reality branch – has lost a staggering $21 billion since last year… so far, there is very little evidence that this enormous punt will work. Horizon Worlds, a game published by Meta, is about as close as the company has got to creating a metaverse. Users can hop into different settings – cafes, comedy clubs, night clubs, basketball courts – to hang out and play games.

   Meta claims it has 300,000 monthly users: tiny when compared to the billions of people on Facebook and Instagram… User reviews complain of empty worlds, and say there simply aren't enough people to make it fun. Or if there are people, they're often children.

   Looks like a magical portal dysfunction. Enchanted users getting sucked thro is happening slowly. A design flaw, or technoklutz? We'll see I guess:

   In July, on an investor call, someone asked Zuckerberg why he'd spent all this money. "Help us understand," they said. Zuckerberg said he understood the frustration, and admitted: "I can't guarantee you that I'm going to be right about this bet. I do think that this is the direction that the world is going in."

   And so, on Wednesday, we'll hear from Zuckerberg as he attempts to breathe life into a concept in desperate need… https://www.bbc.com/news/technology-66913551
   • AB 3.1

     26 September 2023 at 8:43 am

     design flaw, or technoklutz?

     Both. The latter causing the former. Worse than a design flaw though – a moral/spiritual/intellectual flaw. Compelling evidence of why we should never allow anybody to become extremely rich, because otherwise our society gets dominated by the worst people in it.
     • Dennis Frank 3.1.1

       26 September 2023 at 8:56 am

       a moral/spiritual/intellectual flaw

       Yeah, good point. I believe humans have a spiritual drive within, as part of the psyche, separate from intellect. Morality seems to have biological roots – which evolutionary psych science has been exploring for decades (reciprocal altruism) which seems to interface with the spiritual drive via religion (in deep shit in western countries) but the person/group interface is the gut of the nexus.

       That's a triad (p/g, slash symbol=function) btw – Zuck, as avatar of jewish capitalism, may be on a steep learning curve…
4. Dennis Frank 4

   26 September 2023 at 8:44 am

   So here's what our future hinges on:

   the country’s infrastructure deficit has been valued at $210b by Treasury – an ocean-sized gulf that will take more than five years to fix. It would be more like 15 years if Labour’s promised pace continues.

   The crown jewels of Labour’s infrastructure plan are a list of 14 transport projects, along with continuity for projects in a state of existential uncertainty like Auckland’s light rail.

   Roads like State Highway One from Auckland to Whangārei and from Cambridge to Piarere are on the list, as well as a second Mount Victoria Tunnel and rapid transit lines to Auckland’s rapidly developing northwest.

   Labour has spent $45 billion on infrastructure over the past five years and put $3.6b aside for the Climate Emergency Response Fund.

   So Labour in this term has spent enough to solve a quarter of the problem. That's better than a kick in the head, but probably a performance worth 6/10.

   Christopher Luxon has described the solution as “getting the economics right and having regulation that is fit for purpose” – what that means is a fast-tracking to the consents process, modelled on fast-tracking used under Covid-19. Meanwhile, National would require councils to immediately consent enough land capacity for 30 years’ worth of housing growth.

   So import so many foreigners that the country's infrastructure gets even less viable in the future, a performance worth 0/10.

   The Green Party’s approach to infrastructure focuses on equitable public transport and climate adaptation. https://www.newsroom.co.nz/defining-issues-filling-the-unfillable-hole-of-infrastructure

   Sensibly resilient: 8/10
   • Incognito 4.1

     26 September 2023 at 9:55 pm

     Again, you try to re-write somebody else’s article to suit your own narrative, without making it clear to the unsuspecting reader, which is both intellectually dishonest and lazy.

     For example, this is how the original authentic text goes:

     Labour has spent $45 billion on infrastructure over the past five years and put $3.6b aside for the Climate Emergency Response Fund.

     Its campaign has promised to extend that even further, committing $71b over the next five years into infrastructure, schools, hospitals and public housing.

     Finance Minister Grant Robertson called this “the long-term nation-building a responsible government must do” when he announced it at Budget 2023. [my italics]

     However, the country’s infrastructure deficit has been valued at $210b [et cetera]

     I’m getting tired of your slippery behaviour.
5. Tony Veitch 5

   26 September 2023 at 9:03 am

   An open letter from Gerald Otto to Christopher Luxon – containing some pertinent truths which should be more wide broadcast!

   https://nickrockel.substack.com/p/letter-to-luxon?utm_source=profile&utm_medium=reader2
   • ianmac 5.1

     26 September 2023 at 9:58 am

     So powerful Tony. Thanks. What would happen if Gerald's letter was published as an opinion piece in the Herald or Stuff? He sums up the reality so well.

     Some wanted change for changes sake to settle some grudge they had with the pandemic response, but let's be clear about one thing.

     You've lost count because you were never counting and you are terrible with numbers. So terrible, you've no idea how bad Nicola looks every time she waves a bit of paper around and says that's our modelling on a single line at the bottom of the page.

     It's embarrassing and Jack pointed and laughed out loud.

     https://nickrockel.substack.com/p/letter-to-luxon?utm_source=profile&utm_medium=reader2
   • Patricia Bremner 5.2

     27 September 2023 at 12:54 am

     Love reading Nick Rockel. He makes good points in an interesting way. Gerald Otto tells it how it is. On point.
6. Bearded Git 6

   26 September 2023 at 9:21 am

   • National: 39.1 percent, down 1.8 points (49 seats)
   • Labour: 26.5 percent, down 0.3 points (33 seats)
   • Greens: 14.2 percent, up 1.9 points (18 seats)
   • ACT: 8.8 percent, down 1.3 points (11 seats)
   • NZ First: 5.2 percent, up 0.6 points (6 seats)
   • Te Pāti Māori: 2.2 percent, down 0.9 points (3 seats)
   • TOP: 1.9 percent, up 1.2 points
   • New Conservatives: 1.1 percent

   Latest Newshub poll last night. It's Left 42.9 Right 47.9 if NZF fail to reach the 5% threshold. Just five points in it and all to play for. I don't believe that TPM are on only 2.2%.

   The Greens are on a roll and ACT are in freefall. A friend of mine, a regular Labour voter, told me yesterday she would vote Green this time due to their Wealth Tax policy. Meanwhile yet another ACT candidate resigned in disgrace yesterday after making homophobic media posts and internal fighting within the party is flaring up.

   https://www.stuff.co.nz/national/politics/300977306/nz-election-2023-live-acts-bad-fortnight-gets-a-bit-worse-as-insiders-lift-lid-on-candidate-process
   • Mike the Lefty 6.1

     26 September 2023 at 10:16 am

     You can add that the Greens consistently under poll, that is they get more votes on the day than expected, and they traditionally score well with ex-patriot voters overseas.

     I was proud of my daughter because she told me that she and all her overseas based friends were all voting Green because "they are the only ones really serious about climate change".

     Not proud because she supports The Greens, proud because she is intelligent enough to look past the gold-plated promises and look to the future.
     • Bearded Git 6.1.1

       26 September 2023 at 11:08 am

       Mike: Yes late overseas votes may decide the election. NZF could be on 5.1 on election night and 4.9 after late votes are included. The Greens often pick up a seat as you say.
   • weka 6.2

     26 September 2023 at 7:34 pm

     If NZF drop to say 4.8%, it becomes a 3 MP difference. How many votes is that?

     link to calculations
7. tsmithfield 7

   26 September 2023 at 9:28 am

   My thoughts on the announced "Minister of Just Transitions" announced the other day.

   I think this title is very ambiguous. Firstly, the word "Just" could mean either "only" or "equitable". Secondly, the first thought that came to mind when I heard the word "Transitions" was that it was something to do with gender identity, since that topic has been in the public debate a lot lately.

   Reading further into the announcement, it appears to be to do with reducing emissions, and adapting to climate change and ensuring that the poor are not impacted unfairly in the process. From what I can see, it looks like a geeky, pc term for this role that is used internationally.

   But, that definition seems to be already covered within the scope of James Shaw's Minister of Climate Change role. Minister of Climate Change is a much better name anyway, I think. Because it is very clear and explicit what it is about.

   But the fact that the new title seems both ambiguous and appears to be highly pc geek speak seems only to reinforce the picture that opposition parties are trying to paint of Labour being pc and out of touch. It also seems that Labour assumes that people in the electorate are familiar already with this term (I wasn’t) and therefore should automatically know what it is all about. So, it comes across to me as a bit arrogant, and implying that people are stupid if they don’t get it.

   So, I am left scratching my head about why such a title would be chosen for the role.
   • Drowsy M. Kram 7.1

     26 September 2023 at 12:00 pm

     So the Labour Party's promise of a "Minister for Just Transitions" comes across to you as "a bit arrogant, and implying that people are stupid if they don’t get it." Intriguing.

     How does the Nat's would-be Minister of Finance's refusal to show her working for the projected revenue from their much-touted foreign buyer tax come across to you? A bit arrogant, and implying that people are stupid if they don't get it?

     Willux can't show their working – you know why. It's a major concern, don't you think?

     A major concern

     Why was Max Rashbrooke’s article on the election (Roll up for this election’s beneficiary disappearing act, September 23) not front page news? I was shocked to find more than 350,000 New Zealanders are likely to find their benefits will be cut under some of the political parties if they win the election.

     I am fortunate not to belong to this group but as a New Zealander, I want all of us to be able to feed our children and live in reasonable comfort. I see from the article that the number of children who live in households where food runs short, for instance, has fallen from 20% in 2019 to 13% today.

     We should be continuing to pay beneficiaries enough so that percentage continues to fall, not increase. Where has our kindness and care to all our fellow New Zealanders gone? Surely the effect of the election on our poorest New Zealanders should be a concern to us all.
     • tsmithfield 7.1.1

       26 September 2023 at 1:32 pm

       What more do you want exactly. They have provided the number of houses required to sell at above the threshold price to achieve the tax objective. So, the numbers are out there so far as I can see. The biggest area of contention is whether the numbers are realistic or not. And, there is obviously enough given for people to debate that point.
       • Drowsy M. Kram 7.1.1.1

         26 September 2023 at 2:48 pm

         What more do you want exactly.

         Honesty. Economists say Willux's numbers have no basis in reality – can’t trust ’em.

         'Beyond comprehension': Economists lay into National's foreign tax plan [14 Sept 2023]
         Reddell told the New Zealand Herald it was "almost beyond comprehension how you can get to a number as high as they [National] do".

         I want to see the advice/analysis that shows their "number of houses required" is realistic. Either Willis and Luxon have been scammed, or they are scamming the voters.
         And why on earth do the Nats think that wealthy foreigners buying up NZ properties will be good for Kiwis anyway? Which Kiwis exactly?

         • Disinformation
           Information that is false and deliberately created to harm a person, social group, organization or country.
         • Misinformation
           Information that is false, but not created with the intention of causing harm.
         • Malinformation
           Information that is based on real facts, but manipulated to inflict harm on a person, organization or country.

         https://www.undp.org/eurasia/dis/misinformation
         • tsmithfield 7.1.1.1.1

           26 September 2023 at 3:52 pm

           I posted a link to an article in GD a week or so back of a stuff article I think of one economist who was basing his projected sales on last-years sales, at a time when the property market was in a major slump. If that is typical of the quality of analysis from economists, then the problem may be with them.

           I think projections should be based on sales volumes prior to Covid and the foreign buyer ban.

           According to Megan Woods, 4120 homes per year were sold to foreigners pa in previous years.

           Allowing for a lot of house inflation since then, it might not be unreasonable to project 1700 houses reaching the threshold for the tax.

           In the end, it is all just projections and assumptions to justify any of the promises political parties make. Labour seems to be splashing the cash with their promises like we have an endless money bucket. So, it would be interesting to see the basis of how they propose to pay for all that.
           • Drowsy M. Kram 7.1.1.1.1.1

             26 September 2023 at 4:14 pm

             Labour’s housing spokesperson Megan Woods said that before the foreign buyer ban in 2018, an average of 4120 homes a year were sold to foreign buyers.

             “National’s plan assumes 48.5% of those homes would be sold for over $2m , despite homes of that value being only 5% of the market,” Woods said.

             National has been approached about its policy’s tax-take projections.

             More pro-Nat scamming – disappointing.

             And why on earth do the Nats think that wealthy foreigners buying up NZ properties wouldl be good for Kiwis anyway? Which Kiwis? Exactly!
             • tsmithfield …

               26 September 2023 at 4:38 pm

               That is where Woods isn't particularly clear. Does she mean 5% of the whole housing market, or 5% of the houses sold to foreigners? Because it makes a big difference.

               And, if she was referring to the percentage of houses back in 2018 above that threshold, then house price inflation definitely hasn't been factored into her comment.

               Take a look at a histogram. Often it doesn't take that much movement in any factor to shift it from the extremes to more towards the centre.
               • Drowsy M. Kram …

                 26 September 2023 at 4:47 pm

                 Shrinking Fast: NZ's $2m-plus Sales

                 Mount Maunganui's big money slump: Where did all the $8m sales go?
                 Only a handful of properties have sold for more than $2m so far this year.

                 Who is advising/lobbying the Nats, and why are Willis and Luxon scamming Kiwi voters? I think we both know.

                 Which Kiwis benefit from opening up NZ’s property market to wealthy foreigners? I think we both know.

                 Self-serving springs to momd.
                 • tsmithfield …

                   26 September 2023 at 5:00 pm

                   You are conveniently ignoring the fact that we have been in the midst of the largest property slump in the last 40 years. But you are making exactly the same mistake as the economist I pointed to.

                   The property market will pick up again once it has corrected and interest rates have retracted once inflation is under control.
                   • Drowsy M. Kram …

                     26 September 2023 at 6:00 pm

                     Luxon says foreign buyer tax questions aren't impacting polls [20 Sept 2023]

                     And that, apparently, is the main thing. Tsmithfield, you are quite insistent that Willis and Luxon should be taken at their word, when they've clearly been caught out trying to scam the voters.

                     Fiscal Holes in The National Party's Foreign Buyers Policy w/ Nick Goodall: September 25, 2023
                     "Our best estimate was that they could probably get about $213 million per year., so pretty well short of that $740…"
                     …
                     Do we have any idea how the National party has come to such a large number, and what information do we have about their bugetting calculations?

                     Foreign Buyers Tax: A Mismatch Between Expectations and Reality
                     The Importance of Transparent Policymaking
                     While the shortfall in the proposed tax revenue may not significantly impact the government deficits, it serves as a testament to the politicians’ approach to policy making and their transparency in responding to criticism. Even though the National party, being an opposition party, may not have the same resources as the Government to form its policy, critics argue that it should invest in thorough analysis using the donations it receives.

                     Hmm – donations the Nats receive. Could ending the ban on foreigners buying Kiwi homes be a way of rewarding the donors?

                     Pulling tax from one part of teetering Jenga tower to place it in another [updated 20 Sept 2023]
                     It’s bleak, against this backdrop, to see so much of this year’s election debate consumed by a policy proposed by the National Party that depends, again, on boosting the property sector.
               • Drowsy M. Kram …

                 26 September 2023 at 4:57 pm

                 mind
   • AB 7.2

     26 September 2023 at 12:44 pm

     The notion of a "just transition" from a high-emissions economy to a carbon neutral or carbon negative one has been around for ages. Bernie Sanders was banging on about it every day in the 2016 race. Like Luxo, Bernie stuck to his lines – but Bernie's lines actually had intellectual and moral content. (sigh – cést la vie)

     The name is simply a recognition that economic and social change on this scale cannot be left to the market – because if you do that it results in both undeserved suffering and undeserved accumulations of wealth. And probably inferior outcomes as well. A responsible government (i.e. a non-NACT one) actually knows that unless you address the very legitimate short-term fears people have for their livelihoods, they will be frightened off doing anything significant about climate change.
     • tsmithfield 7.2.1

       26 September 2023 at 1:30 pm

       Yes, I do understand this. I think the main issue is that you shouldn't have to go into a detailed explanation for people to understand what the name means. The name itself should be self explanatory.
       • gsays 7.2.1.1

         26 September 2023 at 5:05 pm

         At the heart of it, it's just another announcement, not worth the paper it's printed on.

         I forget which one of Hipkin's promises it was, maybe the dental one, but part of it was funded by taking from the CC fighting fund.

         All the neo-lib parties are paying lip service to CC.
8. Mac1 8

   26 September 2023 at 9:34 am

   “When in Motueka shopping… a shop owner told me that his grandson has two kids in his class whom identify as cats and have water bowls on their desks,” one correspondent wrote.

   https://www.stuff.co.nz/national/133004212/party-leader-sue-grey-raises-litterboxes-in-schools-myth-at-candidate-meeting

   2 classmates say they are cats to a grandson who tells his grandparent shop-owner who tells shopper in Motueka who writes a letter which is reported in the Nelson Mail.

   Why 'hearsay' evidence is the stuff of gossips, social media reckoners, conspiracy theorists and some political candidates!
   • Peter 8.1

     26 September 2023 at 9:54 am

     It's a story about nuttery. It's a story about misinformation. It's a story involving Sue Grey. It's a story about sad cases of deluded, crazy people having their madness publicised.
     • PsyclingLeft.Always 8.1.1

       26 September 2023 at 8:34 pm

       Sue Grey. Of the Liz Gunn variety of unbalance. It is sad…and you are so right about their media showing..I would think rational people just shake their heads. In disbelief !

       I did think the Principals of the schools concerned…were great in response : )
   • joe90 8.2

     26 September 2023 at 10:13 am

     Schools may well need litter boxes should Grey's mob ever have a say in firearms policy.

     Will you reintroduce Semi Automatic firearms.

     • We would reintroduce non sporting 5 shot firearms for hunting and sport. The reintroduction non sporting semi auto type rifles with accessories would come under stricter licensing endorsements and safety criteria. Similar to the requirements of owning pistols in this country. An E class licence with added security and restrictions.

     • Non-sporting firearms (including vintage and collectors’ firearms) should also be allowed. A C licence endorsements with extra precautions would apply that would also cover the Film industry requirements.

     https://outdoorsparty.co.nz/nz-outdoors-party-firearms-policy/

     Parents with students in Jeffco Public Schools may have seen some interesting items on their back-to-school shopping lists this year, including buckets and kitty litter.

     That’s because more teachers are opting to include “go buckets” in their classroom, to be used by students as toilets during prolonged lockdowns.

     https://kdvr.com/news/local/half-of-jeffco-schools-now-have-kitty-litter-filled-buckets-for-lockdowns/
     • lprent 8.2.1

       26 September 2023 at 6:45 pm

       non sporting 5 shot firearms

       Simple enough to bring in larger magazines. Hell it isn't even that hard to manufacture your own magazines. And that is before you consider the possibilities of 3d printing with metal or plastic.

       Basically a magazine is a container for rounds with a spring mechanism and a latching system. To think that you can limit by rounds in a magazine is the ravings of an idiot who doesn’t understand what they are and how they could be adapted.

       Besides it isn't the magazine size that is the issue. That is a just a rhetorical fig leaf for the stupid and those who haven’t used firearms a lot. For one reason or another, I have been.

       It is the semi-automatic mechanism, barrel length, the ease of changing magazines and how fast you can spray bullets at a that is the issue. The problem is that semiautomatic weapons are designed primarily for one and only thing – warfare against humans. If a non-professional hunter needs a semi-automatic weapon to make a kill, then they shouldn't be hunting because they are incompetent at using a weapon and evidently too lazy to learn how to shoot well.

       The only professional hunters we have in NZ are those keeping down our populations of rabbits, possums, and other such. Generally their role has steadily been superseded by the use of poisons and increasingly better fences in reserves.
       • joe90 8.2.1.1

         26 September 2023 at 7:19 pm

         The only professional hunters we have in NZ are those keeping down our populations of rabbits, possums, and other such.

         And most are using pre-charged pneumatics with large capacity magazines.
         • lprent 8.2.1.1.1

           1 October 2023 at 10:41 pm

           Cheaper than buying ammo for rabbits.
           Much less of a issue with down-range rounds.
   • AB 8.3

     26 September 2023 at 1:06 pm

     Yeah. I find it a fascinating myth. It's invented by people who make that argument that if you can be (say) born female and think you are really a man, then you can theoretically think you are anything at all – a cat, a beetle, a cloud, a planet.

     But people don't do that. Some things are literally unthinkable, while others are not. There are boundaries to what we can think and presumably they come from our biology as homo sapiens. Our cognitive apparatus is therefore as biological as any other part of us – including, importantly for this debate, our reproductive systems.
9. Mike the Lefty 9

   26 September 2023 at 9:39 am

   There is a curious indifference to last night's poll which showed NZ First in the kingmaker position (again).

   It also seems that some ACT supporters are now deserting the ship and either heading back to National or crossing to NZ First.

   The campaign thus far is quite startling by contrast between the attitudes of the left and right. The parties of the left – Labour, Greens, Te Pati Maori – have looked like a unified block focussed on government, whilst still maintaining their individualities. On the other side the parties of the right seem to be barely on speaking terms. Each of them is having to weed out the conspiracy theorists and nut jobs that are proving so embarrassing to their campaigns.

   I hope New Zealanders will wake up to what the reality of the Coalition of Division has in store for us or whether the "anything but Labour" mentality rules above all else.
   • Dennis Frank 9.1

     26 September 2023 at 9:49 am

     Coalition of Division

     Coalition of Crap sounds better but I bet Hipkins isn't man enough to use it!
     • Mac1 9.1.1

       26 September 2023 at 10:39 am

       The use of 'crap' defines a real man?

       'Coalition of Division' works very well. It has assonance and alliteration and secondly attacks both the divisive and divided nature of the coalition by using the very wording of the hoardings of its constituents.

       Indeed, the very divisive nature of their policies which reflect the politics of fear, division and hatred is what I am most concerned with should that coalition come about- poor government, policies, outcomes, consequences for us all.

       Contrast all that with the inclusiveness of the Labour hoarding slogan, 'In it for you.'
       • Dennis Frank 9.1.1.1

         26 September 2023 at 10:47 am

         In it for you

         My first reaction was that Labour has only been in it for me when Kirk sent the frigate to Mururoa & Lange went antinuclear. I do still credit Jacinda for working with James & the Greens though, gotta be fair.

         I suspect Luxon will have to grow a spine. If he can't corral them in the next couple of weeks, he'll seem a wimp in public. Could be fatal.
       • Barfly 9.1.1.2

         26 September 2023 at 1:26 pm

         "The use of 'crap' defines a real man?"

         Certainly not a hill to die on but the use of 'blunt speak' can resonate with a hell of a lot of people IMO.
         • logie97 9.1.1.2.1

           26 September 2023 at 4:20 pm

           Yes – Blunt and concise speak works.

           Remember the "Decent Ordinary Bloke" from Muldoon. He captured the heart of New Zealand – it covered a multitude of opinions.
     • Patricia Bremner 9.1.2

       26 September 2023 at 1:26 pm

       Not man enough. That is poor Dennis. Chris Hipkins does not have to prove anything to you or others regarding his staunchness.
       • Dennis Frank 9.1.2.1

         26 September 2023 at 1:39 pm

         You're right, he doesn't have to. Depends if he wants to win back the floating voters who have abandoned Labour or not. Dominant male stances may not be trendy but they work via tacit psychology since they are part of the evolutionary wiring of the species. That stuff is crucial for male leadership.

         I learnt it intuitively back when I observed Rowling in disbelief: presenting as a cross between a hamster & a sparrow. Have in recent years learnt about biological signalling from books on evolutionary psychology…
       • Belladonna 9.1.2.2

         26 September 2023 at 6:43 pm

         Hipkins popularity dropping like a stone – even with the lacklustre Luxon as the opponent (19% to 24%)

         It's been a long time since a sitting PM was out-pointed by a leader of the opposition. Even the highly popular Ardern didn't manage it against the personality-challenged Bill English (although, to be fair, she might well have done so with a bit more run up time)
         I think we'd have to go back to 2008 – when the popular Key out-pointed Clark – to find an example (although that was 30s and 40s rather than the teens and 20s we're seeing with the current contenders)
         • Dennis Frank 9.1.2.2.1

           26 September 2023 at 8:06 pm

           Check him out in the debate tomorrow night on 3 to see if he listens to all the Labour advisors telling him to go mongrel (just kidding). Gower is moderator. Will he show up in jackboots with horse-whip??
10. Kay 10

    26 September 2023 at 10:05 am

    https://www.stuff.co.nz/national/politics/300977306/nz-election-2023-live-national-party-to-crack-down-on-people-on-benefits

    Quell surprise.

    All I can say is, at least they are honest and upfront about their intentions, and beneficiaries know full well in advance where they stand. Unlike with Labour, who have unfortunately had a history now since the 1990s of giving out signals they are on our side, only to either throw us under the bus completely (2000s), or play their games of the last few years of pretending to be kind but ignoring the Welfare working group report and doing bugger all, yet at the same time crowing about how much they've done.
    • Ad 10.1

      26 September 2023 at 10:27 am

      We've been at 3.4-3.6% unemployed and our under-utilised is down to about 300,000 people.

      https://www.stats.govt.nz/indicators/underutilisation-rate/

      From experience trying to hire people, this means those left are going to need more and more flexibility and support services and $$ to get them to work even part time.

      Would hate to see beneficiaries punished when it's clear those on benefits really need societal support not punishment.
      • bwaghorn 10.1.1

        26 September 2023 at 12:10 pm

        Just saw luxon on te news 1, saying well kick them.off benifits because we care,!!

        Ugly man

        Caught a glimpse of willis on last night’s debate saying they want people to be able to work more hours,

        The other day radeymane was mortified that taihape mc ds was only open 9 hours a day,
        The nats want there slaves whipped harder.
    • Anne 10.2

      26 September 2023 at 10:32 am

      …giving out signals they are on our side, only to either throw us under the bus completely (2000s), or play their games of the last few years of pretending to be kind but ignoring the Welfare working group report and doing bugger all,…

      Since Labour has done nothing of the sort – and since you have ignored the continuing years of extended global pandemic related economic and social interruptions… not to mention the big improvements they have made and plan to build on in the the next parliamentary term (should they be so lucky) – I think most of us will consign your prognosis to the nearest waste paper basket.
      • Kay 10.2.1

        26 September 2023 at 10:45 am

        Anne, we will have to beg to differ on this one. I'm not going to ask about your personal experiences with the welfare system because that's not my business. But I've unfortunately been dealing with them since 1990 so have a pretty good idea. And yes, I'm very aware there's been a pandemic going on.

        Life for us is infinitely better under a centre-left government, but Labour is NOT our friend. The rhetoric does not match the reality. Pandemic or not, there were reforms that could've easily been made that didn't even involve money, or much of it. The fact of the matter is, they're not interested in welfare reform, just glacial, incremental changes. So they don't scare their middle-class voters.

        Any improvements have been incredibly small, and financially inconsequencial to many of us (eg most increases meant clawbacks from supplements, so practically no one got the full increases, but the Government wasn't shouting that from the rooftops, were they?))
    • Patricia Bremner 10.3

      26 September 2023 at 11:51 am

      At least they are honest and upfront . What a crock. They are the most nasty exaggerating austerity driven fools Kay.
      Are you better off now than in 2016/17? Tell us what is so bad that wasn't put in place, granted slowly because of 6 unplanned serious calamities during the last 6 years? I agree you obviously need more help than what was provided, but do you really believe it is all “lip service”. That is a stretch.
      • Kay 10.3.1

        26 September 2023 at 1:54 pm

        Actually Patricia, I am worse off financially than I was in 2016/17. Between the clawbacks to the supplements that go with core benefit increases, the free prescriptions cancelled out by losing it on disability allowance (otherwise a completely sensible policy), and skyrocketing rent, like most of us I've gone backwards in real terms, just like every year, under every government. Oh, and I STILL have to remain single because they are persisting with the 'relationship rule' which is apparently just too hard to change, ie they don't want to. So we continue to be punished for having the audacity to be disabled. Can't blame natural disasters for that one.

        I acknowledge the positives like the winter energy payment, although that surely is an indication that benefits/pension isn't high enough to cover the power bill? And half price bus fares, about time.

        My issue with Labour is really quite simple. National make it perfectly clear what their intentions are, and they carry through with those promises. Labour talk big (fix child poverty, biggest hike to benefits in forever, etc etc) and try to convince the general public how kind they are, but the rhetoric does NOT equal the reality.

        I am also not overly impressed with just how hard it's become to deal with WINZ, including little things with their IT system that could be easily fixed, but they just refuse to do it. If they insist on making everything online, they can bloody well let us do things online!
        • SPC 10.3.1.1

          26 September 2023 at 3:20 pm

          Disability support should be at the super rate because it is long term.

          And yes, there needs to be an exception for those on disability, they should continue to receive support if they have a working partner – at the JS level.

          Greens policy atm is otherwise

          reforming ACC into a single system for all health and disability-related income support. (3.4)

          https://assets.nationbuilder.com/beachheroes/pages/9644/attachments/original/1686104203/Policy-Greens_Disability-Policy-2012-2023.pdf?1686104203

          https://www.greens.org.nz/accident_compensation_policy

          Ensure that all disabled people are housed in safe, accessible, affordable housing in the community of our choice (…). (5.10)

          5.10.1. Enshrining the right for all New Zealanders to housing in legislation and policy in line with the UNCRPD and NZ Disability Strategy, requiring the Government to ensure everyone is housed in safe, healthy, accessible, affordable housing, and requiring that disabled people can choose where and with whom they live ;
          5.10.2. Providing a housing-first approach with wrap-around services and support for people who have both housing needs and other complex needs;

          5.10.3. Adopting a public housing framework which ensures all new public housing meets universal design and accessibility standards which will particularly benefit disabled people, and existing public housing will be retrofitted to meet universal design standards over an agreed timeframe;

          5.10.4. Ensuring processes for housing modifications are timely, straightforward and transparent with eligibility and funding should be revised based on need, not arbitrary criteria;
          5.10.5. Providing disabled people with choices equal to others about where and with whom they live and the support they receive. This should include: the need for support to transition from residential services to living in the community; and modification funding for people living on papakāinga;

          5.10.6. Ensure the safety of disabled people in all new and existing housing, including processes so that those who cannot use stairs can evacuate in case of an emergency and visual fire alarms in all housing; and

          5.10.7. Acting to provide accessible housing, and mandating that disabled people must have an accessible house before ending a tenancy.

          https://assets.nationbuilder.com/beachheroes/pages/9644/attachments/original/1686104203/Policy-Greens_Disability-Policy-2012-2023.pdf?1686104203
        • Barfly 10.3.1.2

          26 September 2023 at 4:29 pm

          Kay I am getting the Supported Living Payment and I am financially far better off than at any point since becoming unable to work thanks to this Governments initiatives. I am sorry to learn that your circumstances are more difficult – I imagine that any system will have variations due to individual's being in different circumstances but that is little comfort for those in a diificult postion
          • Kay 10.3.1.2.1

            26 September 2023 at 5:33 pm

            Barfly, yes it does come down to individual circumstances. I'd say mine was the skyrocketing rent, like many others. And it's pay what they want or be homeless, thanks to the 'market.' I do manage- just- but the only real major difference I've felt is not being treated like a criminal under a labour government.
    • SPC 10.4

      26 September 2023 at 2:48 pm

      Have National costed their plans for W and I – because everything they mention costs more.
11. weston 11

    26 September 2023 at 10:21 am

    Regardless of whether you consider Trudeau a slimy little weasel or a hero of liberal wokedumb it seems evident he runs a very united parliament !!

    What is the phenomena which explains how so many supposedly intelligent persons can rise to their feet as one and applaud in this case a literal Natzi ?

    On the occasion of Zelensky visiting Canada to gather yet more weapons pledges from wealthy countries its not supprising to see the leader of the particular country fawning all over him like a rash in fact i was supprised Trudeau didnt kiss him on the lips !!What did supprise/horrify me though was the total conformity of the members , united apparently in their collective ignorance and stupidity .

    Novara covers it reasonably

    
    
    
    • Ad 11.1

      26 September 2023 at 10:29 am

      Who exactly is a member of the NAZI Party?
    • Sanctuary 11.2

      26 September 2023 at 10:49 am

      "It is no surprise that Russian media has leapt on the footage as justification of the Ukrainian invasion" – Michael Walker in the very piece you link to.

      Fascist fanboi weston gives us all a fine example of quod erat demonstrandum!
      • Francesca 11.2.1

        26 September 2023 at 1:23 pm

        Nevertheless Sanc .No matter who relays the message

        It was an embarrassing spectacle that no doubt would have passed unnoticed by Russophobic fanbois and historic illiterates , had not Jewish organisations( less sanguine about Nazis as others it seems) raised their disgust
    • Francesca 11.3

      26 September 2023 at 11:13 am

      And then , as one they all professed to have no idea that this Ukrainian ex Waffen SS soldier had been in a unit that killed Jews and acted as concentration camp guards

      He was being lauded for fighting Russians in WW2.Are they all so incredibly ignorant of history that they didn’t twig that meant he’d teamed up with the Nazis?
      Or are all Russians fair game now, and whoever killed them now or in the past gets a free pass on slaughtering Jews .Pretty warped morality here , but widespread in the west .Jewish people however have not been quite so forgetful or forgiving

      https://www.washingtonpost.com/world/2023/09/24/canadian-speaker-apologizes-ukrainian-nazi/
      • Barfly 11.3.1

        26 September 2023 at 1:44 pm

        Would you have liked the choices you had as a Ukrainian in WW2.

        Fight with the Nazi's against the Russians even though they have an entire organisation dedicated to killing Jews

        Or fight with the Russians against the Nazi's while knowing a decade before that Russians Murdered millions of your fellow Ukrainians in the Holodomor

        https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Holodomor

        Oh for a world of simple, clear-cut choices eh?
        • Francesca 11.3.1.1

          26 September 2023 at 2:53 pm

          Ukrainians did have a choice. Those to the west sided with the Nazis, and enthusiastically took up killing Poles, Jews, Roma and Russians out of nationalistic zeal .

          Those more to the East, with generational ties to Russia , were strongly anti fascist and sided with Russia .

          The Holodomor affected those Ukrainians too.

          So I guess the Jewish people just have to shut the fuck up because …..Russia,…. Holodomor ?
          • Barfly 11.3.1.1.1

            26 September 2023 at 4:42 pm

            Millions of Ukranians were murdered by Russians in the Holodomor but to some people only Jewish victims of genocide matter and other races and religions that suffer genocide are less worthy because they are not Jewish

            IMO F*** that for a belief system.
            • Francesca 11.3.1.1.1.1

              26 September 2023 at 5:56 pm

              I agree, 27 million Soviets , many of those Russian were killed in WW2, but no one gives a toss.
              • Belladonna …

                26 September 2023 at 6:31 pm

                Do you think that the fact that Russians were killed by Germans during WW2, somehow gives them a free pass to slaughter anyone they please?

                AFAICS, the 'Ukrainian' being honoured by the Canadians – has been living in Canada since the end of WW2 – so for more than 3/4 of his life.

                I don't see how anyone can regard him as an example of the "Nazification of Ukraine" (although, you might argue for the Nazification of Canada)
                • francesca …

                  26 September 2023 at 7:31 pm

                  Well perhaps you might want to take that concept up with those who feel because of Holdomor , those Ukrainians who threw in their lot with the Nazis were perfectly justified in killing , in a particularly savage manner,Poles,Jews,Roma along with Russians.

                  Tit for tat so to speak, but I didn't realize the former were responsible for Holodomor

                  The thread has been about a Waffen Ss vet being given standing ovations in the Canadian parliament

                  If you think that's OK, fine, your business.

                  Poles and Jews don't share that view
                  • Belladonna …

                    27 September 2023 at 7:08 pm

                    Did I say the actions of the Canadian parliament were fine?
                    No.

                    Do I think it excuses Russia's actions now? Also no.

                    Do I think that this Canadian bloke (having spent more than 3/4 of his life in Canada, I think he qualifies) – has *anything* to do with 'Nazism' in Ukraine. Also no.

                    But it seems as though you'll grasp at any straw to defend your beloved mother Russia.
                • Francesca …

                  27 September 2023 at 10:44 pm

                  Do I think that because 27 million Russians were killed in WW2 it gives them carte blanche to kill anyone they like ?

                  No. I have never said that and nether have the Russians .It seems to be in your head only

                  And the nice Ukrainian fellow you refer to who has apparently been washed of his sins by living in Canada all these years ,has celebrated his time in the Galicia Unit on social media several times .That is why he was being given accolades in the Canadian Parliament for heavens sake …he allied with the Nazis and fought the Russians.His unit was responsible for outright atrocities .What an earth do you think the complaints from Poland and Jewish organisations have been about?Why do you think there have been such profuse apologies .?Why does Poland want to extradite him ?

                  And Zelensky would have known exactly what this guy had been involved in during WW2 when the speaker of the house introduced him as having been in the First Ukrainian Division .Zelensky stood up and applauded anyway, even though his grandfather and great uncles had been killed in the holocaust.
                  https://www.politico.eu/article/yaroslav-hunka-poland-extradite-ukrainian-ss-veteran-canada/
              • Barfly …

                26 September 2023 at 6:41 pm

                In the murderous dictators all time championship

                1 Mao Zedong

                2 Stalin

                3 Hitler

                Honorable mention to king Leopold the second of Belgium coming in at number 6 with an estimated 10 million murdered in the Congo

                https://about-history.com/list-of-dictatorships-by-death-toll-the-top-10-biggest-killers-in-history/
        • joe90 11.3.1.2

          26 September 2023 at 4:00 pm

          In this 2011 blog post Hunka describes the disappearance of friends and acquaintances to Siberia at the hands of the NKVD. He recounts that Germany was reputed to be a highly civilised country, and recalls how no one could understood why so many Jews seemed to be fleeing, and about hopes of aid from the Germans to rescue them from Moscow communism.

          In 1941 when the Nazis did occupy Ukraine, many Ukrainians greeted them as liberators although Hunka hints that German occupation wasn’t much of an improvement over Soviet occupation but at least fewer people seemed to be sent to Siberia.

          And when the threat of another invasion by the Red Army he and many others from his school enlisted with the Nazis to fight against the Soviets.

          https://komb–a–ingwar-blogspot-com.translate.goog/2011/03/blog-post_21.html?_x_tr_sl=en&_x_tr_tl=ru&_x_tr_hl=en&_x_tr_pto=wapp

          https://pbs.twimg.com/media/F60ZsSJaUAAVfEy?format=png&name=medium

          https://pbs.twimg.com/media/F60ZsUaakAABxzO?format=png&name=medium

          https://pbs.twimg.com/media/F60Z-CwagAAMHHq?format=png&name=medium

          https://pbs.twimg.com/media/F60aFmYbsAA543S?format=jpg&name=medium
          • Francesca 11.3.1.2.1

            26 September 2023 at 6:01 pm

            Yeah the Nazis weren’t so bad huh?

            And the Jews, Poles, Roma were just untermenschen anyway.

            Ukrainian guards at German concentration camps were the most brutal and most feared, But it was all worth it for you lot because they were killing Russians as well !

            Nice revisionism there

            Thank goodness the UN is not so relaxed about Ukrainian Nazis
            • Barfly 11.3.1.2.1.1

              26 September 2023 at 6:30 pm

              Francesca it is my understanding that you are regarded as a russophile (with good reason) on this site. In my understanding Russians regard as Nazi's anyone who doesn't like Russians – indeed it seems that is their primary consideration and all other things are incidental.

              If you wish to try to define 'Nazi' as perhaps anti-semitic, authoritarian, genocidal, murderous, torturing, sadistic psychopaths with a penchant for invading other countries and trying to destroy other peoples identities, cultures and history all of these characteristics except for the anti-semitism are boldy on display with the Russian war of conquest on Ukraine.

              I conclude that there are indeed an awful lot of 'Nazis' in Ukraine it's just that 99% of them are fighting in the Russian Military
              • francesca …

                26 September 2023 at 7:32 pm

                Whatever gets you through the long dark night barfly.
              • PsyclingLeft.Always …

                26 September 2023 at 7:57 pm

                Hey I dont know if you read history….but the ss…waffen or otherwise..were murdering pieces of shit. Being a member of same..and seemingly not shy about it..would make me wonder about that guy.

                In Canada, Hunka remained active in Waffen SS veterans circles and maintained a blog on the Internet where, in the early 2010s, he compared veterans of SS Galizien to Jews

                https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yaroslav_Hunka

                https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Huta_Pieniacka_massacre

                Hundreds in Ukraine attend marches celebrating Nazi SS soldiers

                President Vlodymyr Zelensky, who is Jewish, condemned the embroidery marches, which had been conducted legally.

                “We categorically condemn any manifestation of propaganda of totalitarian regimes, in particular the National Socialist, and attempts to revise truth about World War II,” he said Friday in a statement.

                https://www.timesofisrael.com/hundreds-in-ukraine-attend-marches-celebrating-nazi-ss-soldiers/

                And FYI..to you or anyone else..I am on record here on the Standard..as stating Putin is an absolute murdering psychopath.

                I also support Vlodymyr Zelensky.
                • joe90 …

                  26 September 2023 at 8:54 pm

                  https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Huta_Pieniacka_massacre

                  Poland and Ukraine are actively reconciling with their bloody past.

                  It's telling that neither former Soviet Republics nor Warsaw Pact countries are engaging in reconciliation talks with Russia.

                  https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Massacres_of_Poles_in_Volhynia_and_Eastern_Galicia
                  • PsyclingLeft.Always …

                    26 September 2023 at 9:18 pm

                    As I say I dont like Putin…at all. Murderer. Beslan School massacre the one that proved to me. Have to say the History of Eastern Europe (like the Worlds ) just a sad and terrible fact..that Civilians : Poles, Jews, Russians, Ukrainians, Women,Children and the vulnerable were/are always the victims of power.
                • Barfly …

                  26 September 2023 at 9:34 pm

                  I consider myself to be fairly well read on WW2 history and frankly all this talk of Nazism in Ukraine in 2023 is just utter f***ing garbage.

                  I absolutely agree that the Nazi regime were collectively a bunch of deranged murdering lunatics…but they sure as hell weren't the only ones. That some people want to argue that what occurred in a World War 80 years ago is at all relevant to modern day Ukraine is bonkers.
                • Barfly …

                  26 September 2023 at 9:57 pm

                  "Hundreds in Ukraine attend marches celebrating Nazi SS soldiers "

                  ffs I doubt anyone is carrying a picture of Hitler or Himmler – I suggest they may be celebrating Ukranians who fought against the Russians. Here’s a newsflash there was no Ukrainian military they could join in WW2 plus they could not join the German Army because they weren't German – literally the only way for a Ukrainian to fight Russians in WW2 was to join the Waffen SS and after millions of Ukrainians were murdered in the Holodomor by Russians I can easily imagine people who had to watch their relatives starve to death look for payback against their Russian overlords.

                  Lithuania, Estonia and Latvia also had many citizens join the Waffen SS – Now was this because they knew Hitler's 'agenda' and wanted in on some mass murder or was it because USSR had invaded all of them and moved in their usual style of killing the intelligentsia, community leaders and brutally repressing their people?

                  The war that was fought between USSR and Germany was fought between two horrendously evil totalitarian states – there were no 'White Knights' and to pretend there was is simply delusion IMO.
                  • PsyclingLeft.Always …

                    26 September 2023 at 10:03 pm

                    Mate..you seem to have a problem. I will leave you to it.
                    • Barfly …

                      27 September 2023 at 8:16 am

                      True I do have a problem – a lack of tolerance for stupidity
12. bwaghorn 12

    26 September 2023 at 12:06 pm

    https://www.newsroom.co.nz/labour-to-consider-21-million-hectares-of-native-reforestation

    What 2.1 million has?? Is these a full frontal attack on farming??
    • Ad 12.1

      26 September 2023 at 12:28 pm

      Not that hard to run farms that also harvest trees or indeed grow natives. It's been done since 1957.

      https://www.nzffa.org.nz/

      Also every vineyard does it already.

      Also don't forget large areas that could be near-fully reforested profitably like the Chatham Islands.

      Not that hard to think about alternatives to mono-crop intensive dairy production.
      • bwaghorn 12.1.1

        26 September 2023 at 1:34 pm

        Ye bit, if you don't actually fill in the blanks it's an easy leap to believe labour intends to increase the onslaught on rural nz , and only fool thinks it'll be dairy irll be sheep and beef.
    • Barfly 12.2

      26 September 2023 at 12:51 pm

      Turning productive farming land into native forest would be bonkers IMO but I didn't see any mention of repurposing farming land for this. Repurposing some land used for forestry is very likely a good idea. My limited understanding is that there is/may be a sizeable quatity of land used for commercial forestry which is not fit for the purpose – making slips, erosion, flooding and forestry slash inundation during major weather events a much bigger problem. It seems that the Queenstown Council had something of a "she'll be right" attitude to harvesting an area of forest for the $$ and then getting clobbered by slash combined with an adverse weather event because well …….they're stupid and greedy

      https://www.odt.co.nz/star-news/star-national/watch-slash-debris-washes-through-queenstown

      https://www.odt.co.nz/regions/queenstown/forestry-slash-engulfs-cemetery

      https://www.newsroom.co.nz/council-decided-to-leave-slash-in-forest-above-queenstown-cemetery
13. Ed1 13

    26 September 2023 at 12:58 pm

    The usenet group nz.general is something of a cess-pit on politics – a post this morning titled "New Service for those escaping overseas" gave the url: https://www.robbos.co.nz/

    A later post identified that the website was registered to The New Zealand Taxpayer Union, with the contact email starting with jordan, and gave a url for the international tax competitive index as evidence that Australia does not give lower taxes than NZ.

    "Dirty Tricks" is still alive and well in the ACT/Nat world . . .
    • ianmac 13.1

      26 September 2023 at 2:05 pm

      Taxpayers Union = Insidious
    • SPC 13.2

      26 September 2023 at 2:45 pm

      How can any well-meaning person participate in this?

      And how does the MSM justify no report on it?
      • Barfly 13.2.1

        26 September 2023 at 4:48 pm

        IMO

        They aren't well-meaning peopple.

        The MSM's 'raison d'etre' is driving profit for the MSM all other things are incidental.
14. logie97 14

    26 September 2023 at 4:51 pm

    Law and Order.

    Has anyone asked Mitchell if he will pursue the white-collar criminals as strongly as he will the Gangs and violent offenders. I understand that a former prime minister has just been found guilty of a crime and is up for a $5 million penalty. (I understand however that any wise directorship takes out indemnity insurance to cover such eventualities.) So powerful frauds can do as they please.

    Taxation

    I believe Damien Grant recently opined that we should keep the taxman away from productive income. Couldn't agree more. So why is he keen to reduce Bright Line threshold back to 2 years. Investing in and profiteering from sales of existing homes is not productive money. In fact, perhaps all investment income should be taxed at a higher rate – Could probably be directed at the banks as well (particularly the foreign owned ones that operate here in NZ.)

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