Open Mike 28/06/2018

Written By: - Date published: 6:00 am, June 28th, 2018 - 178 comments
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178 comments on “Open Mike 28/06/2018 ”

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  1. Sanctuary 1
    28 June 2018 at 6:22 am

    What’s the German word for Schadenfreude?

    • David 1.1
      28 June 2018 at 6:28 am

      Bereft of any Honour J Key

    • tc 1.2
      28 June 2018 at 6:36 am

      Same issues as last World Cup except this time their opposition has done the homework. They are fourth of the last five world champions to go out in the group phase.

      They were awful till quarter finals last World Cup and scrapped past to find a Brazil who forgot that Neymar wasn’t playing in the semis.

      These teams are a lot closer than the results show as footballs global marketplace levels out the field.

      • Gabby 1.2.1
        28 June 2018 at 12:10 pm

        Very disappointed that Soozie failed to point out the obvious role of the present Labour led coalition.

  2. Ad 2
    28 June 2018 at 6:39 am

    Justice Kennedy preparing to retire from the Supreme Court.

    Supreme Court will then be able to tilt against abortion rights, gun ownership rights, campaign finance rights for donors, human rights digital domain rights, bioengineering rights, and more.

    • Sabine 2.1
      28 June 2018 at 8:49 am

      Thats ok. REally the issue is the Democrats. No the republicans with their need to roll back the clock to 1850.

      No the democrats are the issue. They are not good enough. They are not tough enough. They are to corporate. They are not ….insert whatever.

      The Republicans in the meanwhile laugh all the way to the bank, stacking the courts with white evangelic strictly conservative young men that will rule like white evangelic strictly conservative young men will rule.

      So yeah, lets discuss how a democrat won a democratic primary in a seat that will always seat a democrat.

      She ran a good campaign, she will be one of the youngest congress persons – she will be a congress women in that seat – and feel good about yourself. For a moment.

      Until you realize that it is the Supreme Courts and the lower courts that will decide laws and interpretation of laws for the next 40+ years.

      But yeah, lets party the fact that a ‘left’ democrat won against a ‘centrists’ democrat in a highly democratic seat.

      • Ad 2.1.1
        28 June 2018 at 9:04 am

        It’s getting darker.

      • adam 2.1.2
        28 June 2018 at 9:29 am

        Another corporate liberal telling us why we are all wrong. Sad.

        The cries of purist, was just a cover so you could work out other attack lines against socialists.

        Tell you what, here a cold cup of Martin Luther King.

        “Darkness cannot drive out darkness; only light can do that. Hate cannot drive out hate; only love can do that.”

        • Sabine 2.1.2.1
          28 June 2018 at 10:07 am

          good grief, i am not telling you why you are wrong, i am telling it like i see.

          I again re-iterate a sad truth, that i don’t campaigning for any ‘dem’ but that i am fervently against Donald Trump and the current republican party that enables him in order to push their own agenda through. And as such i would vote for any Dem that would stop them, if i were to live in the US.

          And i am really really sorry if you can’t live with voices that don’t go lock step with what you believe.
          But as a women, everything i said a year and a half ago is coming true.

          So I don’t diminish the win of that young women, but i also don’t think it is more then that. She is a women from the Bronx/Queen, it is a historically safe democratic district with 90% of the people living there being people of colour, and she is de fact to the new Congress women for that district. She did well, she ran a good campaign, her ad was fabulous.

          But non of that matters as – under Obama Barrack – the republican majority did refuse to seat of a hundred of judges to lower houses and one Supreme Court. Which are now being seated with great gusto.
          You know have a very conservative majority that no matter how many left – super left – or centrists democrats win – will rule on any interpretation of law with the mind strictly stuck in the 1850.

          So keep your low level insults about ‘corporate’ liberal bullshit – i don’t even know what the fuck that still means – if it still has any meaning at all, and understand that I vote with the needs for women in mind.
          I vote with my rights in mind, my right to sexual freedom, my right to bodily autonomy, my right to equal access to education and work, my right to a bank account, my right to rent an apartment as an unmarried women, my right to not have to be married in order to get a meal ticket, etc etc etc.
          All of the things i just mentioned are rights that women had to fight four and many are not even 40 years old.

          So maybe you just keep your manly – can give a shit about women- ideas to yourself.

          Cause as Martin Luther Kind said,
          Darkness cannot drive out darkness only light can. Hate cannot drive out hte, only love can do that.

          I suggest you start developing a bit of love for women and children. AS they will pay the bills of the white evangelic heterosexual male with economic anxiety, long before the white evangelic heterosexual male with economic anxiety realizes that he too is fucked in that world.

          • marty mars 2.1.2.1.1
            28 June 2018 at 10:20 am

            + 1

            Keep speaking your truth Sabine – I appreciate your perspective – real not bullshit slogans.

          • adam 2.1.2.1.2
            28 June 2018 at 11:03 am

            “‘corporate’ liberal bullshit – i don’t even know what the fuck that still means”

            Really, so you think money in politics is fine? That people who listen to the interest of capital over people is fine, as long as you liberal politics is protected. And then you wonder why the hard right get to power. What a joke.

            I think that is probably the worst lie you told in your rant, leaving aside your backwards attack on a socialist women, who won because she supports more rights for women and children than you.

            Then to try and say that people who want socialism are somehow against women and child, you really are lame today Sabine, just lame.

            • Sabine 2.1.2.1.2.1
              28 June 2018 at 11:08 am

              did i say that money is fine? did i say money is not fine?

              Please link to where i said that.

              Can you please link to where i said anything negative about the young women who won?

              Please show me that.

              Can you also link to any post where i did not support more rights for wome and children?

              Please show me that.

              And please show me where i said that socialism is against women and children.

              Please show me that.

              Link to these comments that you just pretend i said. Cause what you do is outright lie about me and my believes.

              I have no issues being lame. Its ok. Really it is.

              However you have just shown yourself a liar. A lying liar, who has run out of stuff to say and now takes my comment, who is there for all to see and spin lies about.

              That my dear Adam, lying so openly, so blatantly is not only lame it is pathetic. You have run out of arguments.

              • adam …
                28 June 2018 at 11:21 am

                “So I don’t diminish the win of that young women, but i also don’t think it is more then that. ”

                Just so much support.

                “Can you also link to any post where i did not support more rights for wome and children?”

                I said you didn’t support a candidate, the one above that supports more rights for women and children. Alexandria Ocasio-Cortez. You just poo pooed her success, really supportive.

                Come on you go all attack dog anytime socialists have a victory, so I take your whole line as an attack against socialism.

                As I said, you twisting it into some sort of identity politics over substantive change won’t help you. Intersectionality works to produce better people in roles, for people. As is the case with Alexandria Ocasio-Cortez and others.

                This trump is evil argument, therefore we can’t let a socialist win argument from the likes of you is tired, repetitive, and like I said – lame.

            • marty mars 2.1.2.1.2.2
              28 June 2018 at 11:15 am

              adam you are the worst kind of bully boy. Pull your head in and stop abusing people by calling them liars – your smears and insults show you up.

              • adam …
                28 June 2018 at 11:24 am

                I didn’t call anyone a liar, I think you will find that the liar phrase came from Sabine.

                • marty mars …
                  28 June 2018 at 11:52 am

                  Really?

                  “I think that is probably the worst lie you told in your rant… ”

                  liars always get caught- that quote was from you less that 60 minutes ago – just upthread a wee bit.

                  Also your ability insult (lame) is offensive plus that Americanism is not used often here in Aotearoa. You may need to rejig your online persona.

                  • adam …
                    28 June 2018 at 1:22 pm

                    Calling out a lie, and calling someone a liar are different in my book. I did not think Sabine was a liar, just that she was peddling a lie.

          • McFlock 2.1.2.1.3
            28 June 2018 at 1:04 pm

            Well said, Sabine

            • In Vino 2.1.2.1.3.1
              28 June 2018 at 4:45 pm

              Ditto

              • Anne …
                28 June 2018 at 6:20 pm

                Ditto from me too. I admire Sabine’s tenacity.

              • Drowsy M. Kram …
                28 June 2018 at 7:57 pm

                And me – good comments Sabine. Might be mistaken, but Adam (who’s comments often make a lot of sense to me) seems to have misinterpreted/mis-read Sabine’s initial comment, and the dialogue went downhill from there.

            • corodale 2.1.2.1.3.2
              29 June 2018 at 5:02 am

              t-rump-a-dam
              now hang on, that was funny

          • veutoviper 2.1.2.1.4
            28 June 2018 at 7:08 pm

            As marty mars, McFlock, In Vino and Anne have said, I also appreciate your comments and perspectives on this issue above – in my case, both as a woman and as someone who lived in Washington DC for some years. A great win for Alexandria Ocasio-Cortez but as you have said ultimately it is the stacking of the Supreme Court with conservatives that will affect matters in the US for a considerable time to come due to the power the Supreme Court has.

            As for Adam, many of us here (myself included) have been subjected to his blinkered black and white views and insults when we disagree with him – including his attempts to then turn himself into the victim and the offended one. These episodes from him seem to happen every few months on a cyclical basis. Best to just ignore him after the first rebuttals.

      • joe90 2.1.3
        28 June 2018 at 5:35 pm

        I guess all those truly progressive folk will be happy, now.

        /

        CNN legal analyst Jeffrey Toobin predicted that abortion would soon be illegal in many states within months of Supreme Court Justice Anthony Kennedy’s retirement.

        Anthony Kennedy is retiring. Abortion will be illegal in twenty states in 18 months. #SCOTUS— Jeffrey Toobin (@JeffreyToobin) June 27, 2018

        Toobin elaborated on his point during a CNN appearance shortly after his tweet.

        “You’re going to see 20 states pass laws banning abortion outright,” Toobin said. “Because they know there are going to be five votes on the Supreme Court to overturn Roe v. Wade.”

        “And abortion will be illegal in a significant part of the United States in 18 months, and there is no doubt about that,” he added.

        http://thehill.com/regulation/court-battles/394450-jeffrey-toobin-predicts-abortion-will-be-illegal-in-20-states-soon

        • Bill 2.1.3.1
          28 June 2018 at 5:57 pm

          So Toobin reckons (and it really is just conjecture) that well nigh on half of the states in the US will take a huge (from my perspective) retrograde step around abortion. He may be right. He may be wrong.

          But there is nothing inherent to devolving power that means places go backwards in terms of their legislative environment. And as a principle, the more devolved power is, the better chance there is for accountability.

          At worst (and no, I don’t think this is a good thing) the US will resemble the EU – where some states have liberal abortion rights and some have idiotic restrictions in place.

          And as usual, the poor will “wear it” should any particular state get all regressive on it, unless they can afford to travel across state boundaries (or a few state boundaries).

          btw – about Kennedy, off the back of whose retirement the sky is going to fall in (from your link)….The Supreme Court ruled 5-4 on Tuesday that a California law that requires crisis pregnancy centers to give women information on how to receive low-cost abortions from the state is likely in violation of the First Amendment. Kennedy sided with the majority opinion in the case.

          • joe90 2.1.3.1.1
            28 June 2018 at 8:15 pm

            (and it really is just conjecture)

            Apparently not.

            Only 17 states have laws that protect abortion. If the Supreme Court overturns Roe v. Wade, abortion would immediately be illegal in 33 states because of what is known as a "trigger law." Call your governor. Register and vote. Every judge in America is important. pic.twitter.com/pRBaHWP0mZ— Pod Save America (@PodSaveAmerica) June 27, 2018

            • Bill 2.1.3.1.1.1
              29 June 2018 at 12:26 pm

              Hmm. Those numbers kind of surprise me, though since Roe and Wade hit the statute books at the Federal level in 1973, I guess I shouldn’t be surprised at all. As from 1973, states had no call to formulate their own legislation around abortion.

              It also means or meant (possibly) that rabidly anti-choice political candidates could gain office “under the radar” as it were… their stance on abortion being secondary or even largely irrelevant given the presence of Roe v Wade.

              So centralising power was two steps forward, and the consequence could be three steps backwards in some states when and if power is devolved.

              I’d say that’s an argument for not centralising power, though I guess others will argue the opposite given the possible repercussions of devolution in this case.

      • One Anonymous Bloke 2.1.4
        28 June 2018 at 5:49 pm

        Michael Avenatti holds that the next POTUS will appoint two or three to the SCOTUS. That made me feel a bit better.

        I assume Trump will burn the Reichstag between now and the midterms, but a good outcome in November could lead to impeachment and President Pence would lose in 2020.

        Yeah nah there’s going to be a clusterfuck. What will the “sanctuary states” do?

      • corodale 2.1.5
        29 June 2018 at 4:58 am

        Billiards and kickboxings, sounds like a healthy lifestyle.

  3. Ed 3
    28 June 2018 at 6:58 am

    Radio Now Zealand’s slavish and partial business programme, hosted by the ghastly Giles Beckworth, just keeps pumping out propaganda for the corporations.
    ‘Business confidence is slumping.’

    To translate for regular citizens, rich greedy people and large multinational corporations are worried they’re not going to get away with their heist any longer.

    • Sanctuary 3.1
      28 June 2018 at 8:18 am

      The MSM is recruited from the class winners from neoliberalism. They are complacent cynics with an ambient setting in favour of the status quo. They regard attempts at genuine reform in favour of the losers from the neoliberal reforms of the past from a starting point of scepticism and as an opportunity to play gotcha journalism with those intrepid enough to take the risk of attempting change. Just now on RNZ there was a classic example of this, with Guyon Espiner trying to foot trip Chris Hipkins over a press release.

      There was an interesting piece on the radio yesterday where farmers were grizzling about the drive for a living wage. They were doing all the usual exceptionalist bitching you get from the rural sector – complaining that they offer free accommodation, that they can’t afford higher wages, that no one understands how hard being a farmer is. The suggestion was to start charging market rents for the housing they provide if they have to up the wages of their indentured third world labour. Nowhere did the chummy rural reporter suggest that they just pay more. You hear similar grizzling from business, on high rotate.

      I have been constantly struck by how dependent so many NZ businesses are on low wages and rent-taking for profits. None of these industrialised agri-business managers (which is what most “farmers” are now) showed any interest in actually increasing real incomes, or of ways to increase profits to allow them to do so. This is the key productivity issue with low wage, rentier economies with disempowered workers like ours – there is zero incentive to add value to outputs to maintain or increase profitability. You simply raise rents, and cut costs – especially wages. Worse, our current policy settings mean the boss class is actually better rewarded for taking the low-risk (to them) strategy of cutting costs and incomes and seeking higher rents than they are from investing and taking risks – which is why they feel so threatened by a government that wants to take away their main tools for maintaining profitabilty.

      Neoliberalism, in short, has created an unimaginative, risk averse and conservative business class that is excessively reliant on low wages, a compliant work force and rent seeking to remain profitable.

      • Pat 3.1.1
        28 June 2018 at 8:29 am

        What is equally as telling is the public response to the remuneration for nurses and teachers…..so many discussions in the media state support for the need to increase incentive to retain these workforces all the while conveniently ignoring the fact both occupations are rewarded considerably above the median income….how do they justify the disconnect to themselves?

        • Sanctuary 3.1.1.1
          28 June 2018 at 8:50 am

          “….how do they justify the disconnect to themselves..?”

          Ah, the classic right wing mindset on display for all to see.

          1/ Life is a zero sum game, where if someone else is doing OK you don’t congratulate them on their success, you envy it and you assume that anyone who who gets more, is doing so at your expense.

          2/ Divide and rule by playing one set of workers off against another. I doubt hospital cleaners resent the pay the nurses get, and I think nurses would fully support cleaners earning more.

          • Pat 3.1.1.1.1
            28 June 2018 at 8:58 am

            Ah, the classic thoughtless repetition of slogans….comforting in an odd sort of way if youre conservative I guess.

        • Psych nurse 3.1.1.2
          28 June 2018 at 11:01 am

          Yes we earn more than the median wage, by working weekends, nights and overtime, paid and unpaid. Shift workers need to be paid considerably more to compensate for the unsocial hours, lack of time with families and decreased life span caused by the rotating shifts. it is a recognised fact that shift workers suffer increased rates of cancer, diabeties and cardiac issues. So we are not adequetly compensated for the risk.
          What other occupation goes off to work expecting abuse and injury. our employers do not have the decency to maintain your wages for work related ACC, we lose the first week from sick leave and then get only 80% untill recovered, so I have no disconnect about turning down what amounts to about 7% over three years, a fraction of what our DHB management have awarded themselves since the last MECCA was signed.

          • Pat 3.1.1.2.1
            28 June 2018 at 12:13 pm

            Psych nurse, like Sanctuary you have missed the point of my comment, although to your credit you havn’t resorted to slogans….if you read you comment again you may note I havn’t objected to nurses or teachers pay claims (which I further note will still not match the rate of inflation)….it was to highlight the commentators (public and media) support of the reasons why it is proper and necessary for these two occupations to receive such consideration, meanwhile that same reasoning appears not to apply for other (frequently lesser rewarded) occupations….that is the disconnect.

        • Gabby 3.1.1.3
          28 June 2018 at 12:32 pm

          I dunno patty, they might think nurses deserve to earn above the median income.

          • Pat 3.1.1.3.1
            28 June 2018 at 12:36 pm

            good grief…is the level of comprehension really that abysmal?…..where is it suggested otherwise?

            • Gabby 3.1.1.3.1.1
              28 June 2018 at 1:21 pm

              Nothing to do with your own superlative powers of communication patty, obviously.

              • Pat …
                28 June 2018 at 2:14 pm

                hmmmmm…well if 3 of you are struggling so much then perhaps it is….maybe I should add a ‘Y’ to everything…would that make it any clearer?

            • AB 3.1.1.3.1.2
              28 June 2018 at 2:45 pm

              I took Pat’s point to be that although there is (deserved) support for more money for nurses and teachers, there is relative silence about more money for people who earn less than nurses and teachers. And that is actually the majority of income earners.
              In terms of where they sit in the income distribution, nursing and teaching are middle-class jobs. Though increasingly they will not fund a middle-class lifestyle – mainly due to the deliberately engineered house price and rent inflation we have been suffering.
              Nurses and teachers get support because what they do has social utility that is obvious to everyone. But instead of basing these calculations on some emotional sense of the worthiness of a job role, we should be operating from a baseline understanding that everyone, no matter what they do, needs enough income to live a dignified life.

              • Pat …
                28 June 2018 at 3:32 pm

                Indeed AB…..I wonder if it is as simple as the fact that they are what could be termed middle class occupations and those commentating are themselves middle class?….which is curious given that one of the oft promoted strengths of the NZ I grew up in was that it was essentially ‘classless’…and although not strictly accurate it was certainly more egalitarian than today.

                Have we insidiously become a mini Britain and all the lack of social mobility/meritocracy that comes with that?

                • gsays …
                  28 June 2018 at 5:06 pm

                  Hi pat, not here to slag you off or anything…
                  The term median wage seems to be used a lot in respect to the nurses wage round.
                  Leading up to the election, we were bombarded with average wage this, average wage that.

                  • Pat …
                    28 June 2018 at 6:47 pm

                    Unfortunately ‘average’ anything is a very limited indicator ….one (IMO) positive feature of pre neoliberal NZ was the compression of the salary band…from both extremes.

      • Anne 3.1.2
        28 June 2018 at 9:06 am

        The MSM is recruited from the class winners from neoliberalism. They are complacent cynics with an ambient setting in favour of the status quo.

        Once upon a time journos and reporters went to ordinary state schools like the rest of us. Nowadays most seem to have graduated from fancy private schools. Hence the status quo neoliberal orientation which was impressed upon them from their earliest days – and the complacent, superior mindset which sits alongside.

        • Wayne 3.1.2.1
          28 June 2018 at 10:01 am

          Anne,

          On what basis do you assert that. Is there any hard data, or is it just your belief?

          I would note around 10% of young people are in fee paying private schools, another 10% in integrated schools (mostly Catholic), and 80% in state schools (which includes schools like Takapuna Grammar, Epsom Girls and Auckland Grammar).

          • Anne 3.1.2.1.1
            28 June 2018 at 10:51 am

            Of course there is no hard data. I don’t base my impressions on ‘percentages’ which can be easily distorted to paint a desired picture. Also, percentages only tell a small part of any story. Evidence based on observation over a long period of time can be far more accurate.

            The older members of the MSM establishment are more likely to have been educated in state schools (including the top schools like Auck. Grammar and their equivalents elsewhere) but the younger generation do seem to have been the recipients of private school education at a higher than the the national average rates. Not knocking them for it, but it does colour their judgments and it shows time and again.

            • Planet Earth 3.1.2.1.1.1
              28 June 2018 at 11:44 am

              Anne, could you please give some of that “evidence based on observation over a long period of time”? Specifically, about the “younger generation (of the MSM establishment) having been the recipients of private school education at a higher than the national average rates”. Very interested in your evidence on this.

            • Wayne 3.1.2.1.1.2
              28 June 2018 at 12:16 pm

              Anne

              “…the younger generation do seem to have been the recipients of a private school education…”

              Is this based on your actual knowledge of the education of the younger generation of journalists, or is it because they just seem to be like the recipients of private education?

              And by the way I went to Reporoa College, a state school of 300 students 30 km south of Rotorua, so I am not holding out any sort of candle for private education.

              • Gosman …
                28 June 2018 at 12:47 pm

                I love the fact that leftist think that journalism is the sort of profession Private school educated people would be drawn to. Journalism is incredibly low paid compared with such professions as IT, Banking, or Law. If these people are interested in making money (the implications in the asertions that the MSM is infiltrated by privately educated journalists) they wouldn’t become journalists.

                • mac1 …
                  28 June 2018 at 1:39 pm

                  Gosman, (and later on to JanM below at 3.1.2.2) I think Anne’s assertion is, rather, that former students of private schools might have a certain predilection for more conservative views as the background of such students tends to be from more well-to-do families.

                  Having said that, I am a product of a private school, though not a journalist. As Wayne says above, private schools are a mix of all-sorts, amongst their students and within the category as well.

                  Catholic schools were actually more working class than other private schools as Catholics themselves in New Zealand were also predominantly working class. We Cantabrian Bedeans saw Christ’s College and St Andrew’s along with ChCh Boys’ High as the elitist schools in my day, fifty years ago.

                  One journalist in my class, as far as I know. A brilliant scholar, he became a specialist in motoring journalism. Another brilliant student, another dux, from a College I taught at, which was a state school, became a very respected current affairs journalist. Both men, along with their academic intellect, also were distinguishable by their scepticism and sardonic wit. Mind you, keeping awake with such dullards as the rest of us would have required a sardonic wit, as David Lange practised.

                  A certain cynicism is either a prerequisite for the job of journalism, or it develops with experience.

                  • Gosman …
                    28 June 2018 at 2:51 pm

                    No Anne is using her huge anti-private school bias to try and denigrate the MSM without a shred of evidence to support hewr.

                    • Stuart Munro …
                      28 June 2018 at 3:39 pm

                      Nonsense – you’re just trying to beat up an observation for which you have no counter evidence.

                      As NZ media collapsed under the twin assaults of monopolism and competing technologies, selection has worked to favour asinine far-right numpties like Hosking and the unlamented Henry.

                      You’ve said it ain’t so – how about you prove it.

                    • Gosman …
                      28 June 2018 at 3:53 pm

                      You really struggle with the concept of ‘Burden of proof’ don’t you?

                    • Stuart Munro …
                      28 June 2018 at 4:06 pm

                      Not at all Gosman.

                      You’re a troll – and particularly repellent one.

                      Anne need not justify her observations to you – they have standing in their own right.

                      You however only come here to rain on our parade – you don’t even advance your silly far-right positions with any frequency because you know your spurious logic will unravel without impressing anyone.

                      The MSM are widely reviled because they have become so degraded. Anne’s impressions as to how that came about have much more substance than anything you’ve ever said.

                    • Anne …
                      28 June 2018 at 6:48 pm

                      Absolute piffle. I went to a top grammar school of the day. Most of my school mates attended top private schools. But in my day we had an egalitarian society and no-one was seen as being better than any-one else – not in my experience anyway.

                      Now we have a neo-liberal society and, together with the entitled and illiberal mindset taught in these supposedly superior private educational institutions, we have produced a massive gaggle of spoiled brats the like of which we have never seen before. They are liberally sprinkled throughout the MSM and their snobby, I am so superior to the rest of you peasants is plain for all to see – except of course to simple minded rwnjs like Gosman.

                    • Anne …
                      28 June 2018 at 7:08 pm

                      My comment above is aimed at Gosman’s

                      Anne is using her huge anti-private school bias to try and denigrate the MSM without a shred of evidence to support hewr.

                      Gos baby: I was once employed by a major TV station in NZ and worked alongside nearly all of the top names in TV and radio of the day. My ‘observations’ are therefore based on better information than most.

                  • mac1 …
                    28 June 2018 at 6:32 pm

                    A certain cynicism is also needed with folk like Gosman who unrepentedly and unashamedly misrepresent, misinterpret and obfuscate. Isn’t that so, Gosman? He loves questions, btw.

              • Anne …
                28 June 2018 at 7:27 pm

                …by the way I went to Reporoa College, a state school of 300 students 30 km south of Rotorua,

                Yes, I know Reporoa. I was the School dental Nurse at the Reporoa Primary School for about a year back in the day. Was shipped out on the request of the family doctor (no-one consulted me) because I was prone to bronchitis and the freezing winters were not helpful. On my last day a local farmer rang me wanting to take me out to dinner. I was leaving that night and had to turn him down. Who knows… I might have ended up a farmer’s wife hosting morning coffee sessions for the local National Party. 😉

                Btw, hate to disillusion you mate but you left the ranks of the younger generation almost as long ago as I did. 🙂

              • rhinocrates …
                28 June 2018 at 7:50 pm

                And by the way I went to Reporoa College, a state school of 300 students 30 km south of Rotorua, so I am not holding out any sort of candle for private education.

                So what? You’re another climber who pulled up the ladder after them and likes to present themself as a working class hero. Just like that fake Westie, Bennett. Funny how the Nats now want to present themselves as being so concerned about the unwashed when they never gave a shit before when it would have been worth something.

        • JanM 3.1.2.2
          28 June 2018 at 10:38 am

          Back then journalists coming from state schools were the pupils considered not completely dumb, but not quite bright enough to go to university: For the most part they were quite easy to manipulate, rather in the same way so many people vote National against their own best interests.
          There were, of course, some great exceptions, but then, as now, the owners of news outlets didn’t really want to know about too many people who could raise their perspectives above the masses.

      • Venezia 3.1.3
        28 June 2018 at 11:12 am

        Sanctuary….I heard that piece on RNZ with the grizzling farmers and thought the same about the MSM.

      • saveNZ 3.1.4
        28 June 2018 at 11:25 am

        +1 Sanctuary

        In same ways modern living on low and living wages is on par with slavery and our government is driving it for profiteering, apart from the obvious freedom issue, at least the slaves had free accomodation and food and transport provided, nowadays many wage slaves have to go into debt to afford basic living and after a day at work go down to the mission to get that food parcel that their wages can’t afford or the new trafficked low wage migrant community who are promised the world, go into debt and work long hours to find out they are worse off than before after flights, accomodation, living expenses, middle men expenses and the exploitation of random demands for $20k, and so forth from their ‘living wage’ which in my view is not livable in Auckland unless you are 18 years old and flatting in central Auckland (but then the employer doesn’t want that 18 year old wage they expect the low wages to be paid for experienced 30 – 50 year olds who have much higher expenses)!

        • Gabby 3.1.4.1
          28 June 2018 at 12:35 pm

          Why do they grimly cling on in Aucky savy?

          • saveNZ 3.1.4.1.1
            28 June 2018 at 1:16 pm

            @Gabby The middle classes are not staying in Auckland, they are moving out of Auckland and we now have massive shortages of people like teachers, which you don’t hear about like the trougher industries, because the teachers have a union so they are focused on solving the problem long term by increasing wages and training rather than the construction route, illegal workers, overseas workers and screwing over the Kiwi apprentices and contractors who are expected to compete with wages like $20p/h from a decade ago with living costs that are nothing like a decade ago! A third of the migrants at least are themselves leaving once they get residency or finish their university education leaving a satellite family in their wake which is not exactly solving any problems in NZ, just adding to the social welfare bill and increasing the shortages.

            P.S. Kiss goodbye to social democracy & central left leaning government if we just get the rich and the foreign in Auckland as Auckland controls roughly 30% of the election vote.

          • saveNZ 3.1.4.1.2
            28 June 2018 at 1:24 pm

            @Gabby, also I don’t think many places in the provinces are better!

  4. cleangreen 4
    28 June 2018 at 7:03 am

    3.5 cents additional national excise tax on fuel is announced this morning by Minister of Transport on TV one.

    This is for ‘unclogging our transportation system’ says Phil Twyford.

    So we expect the rail system ‘regional transport’ also gets a share of this extra funduing so they can transfer freight and passenger services off the very dangerous roads we are now seeing as 7 more citizens died on Taranaka roads yesterday.

    This just adds to the shocking road death statistics appearing now in 2018, as truck freight levels are increasing at an unchecked 6% each year claims NZTA.

    • Sacha 4.1
      28 June 2018 at 8:46 am

      The Taranaki crash had nothing to do with road freight. Show some respect.

    • Sabine 4.2
      28 June 2018 at 8:54 am

      .

      I really think that this particular horrible accident should not be used to complain about heavy transport – as no heavy transport was involved.

      They died because either one or both of the drivers did not drive to the conditions, did not stay on their side of the road, and head on collided with the other passenger vehicle.

      Just saying.

      There are an awful lot of NZ drivers who should not drive. Because they don’t know how to drive in averse situations.

      • Rosemary McDonald 4.2.1
        28 June 2018 at 2:57 pm

        Sabine…we just drove along the road on the Far Far North where two local elders were killed in an horrific head-on a couple of months ago. There’s the obligatory shrine…and look!!! There’s the vehicle coming towards us drifting over the centre line!!! Shakes head, changes undies and despairs that lessons will ever be learned.

    • saveNZ 4.3
      28 June 2018 at 11:30 am

      @cleangreen, Yep, disgusting as those that are profiteering from the massive low wage immigration drive are living in their 2 million mansion in central Auckland or Wellington or off shore and therefore don’t seem to have to pay it, unlike the displaced people they forced further out of Auckland.

      Saying that better than the congestion tax, as then the above would not be paying anything in most cases, at least when they go off to their Bach in the Coromandel/Omaha they have to pay the fuel as do the truck drivers one of the worst offenders of the congestion as well involved in 25% of fatal accidents.

    • saveNZ 4.4
      28 June 2018 at 1:30 pm

      This is for ‘unclogging our transportation system’ says Phil Twyford…. obviously he has not calculated how many journeys around Auckland via the public transport system are dysfunctional or the ‘shared’ economy where everybody has 2 or 3 jobs and have to get to them on their own steam.

      You might as well give up and go on the dole because by the time you pay for the outrageous transport costs and pay your rates of which 54% goes to those transport costs (and if you rent then rates are a factor in the rents), and the two hours it takes you, you are working for nothing as your expenses are over what you earn.

      • saveNZ 4.4.1
        28 June 2018 at 2:06 pm

        A few examples I’ve explored over the last few days… it seems that it’s more like a punishment on the poor and middle class than to ease congestion as the public transport clearly is not exactly affordable or even available or feasible due to the time, cost and availability it is taking to get anywhere.

        As soon as you need to change from Queen ST, Auckland aka get to the airport, you are facing massive time and costs.

        (worked out weekly costs arriving before 8:55am in most cases). Bare in mind most people would have to have a car as well, if they had a family because imagine paying these public transport costs for an entire family getting around without a car!

        Hobsonville Point Road, Hobsonville to Queen Street, Auckland Central
        Thursday 28 June
        Departs at 7:38 am
        1hr 4min
        HOBS HOP $7.50 weekly return journey $75 + $10 HOP
        Yep only takes 1 hour and 4 minutes by public transport including your walk of 80 minutes return which is more than 2 hours commute and $75 for transport.

        Or take the picturesque ferry from Hobsonville PT

        A lovely 44 minute walk return to get to the ferry (no public transport options according to AT planner) and then that 35 minute journey by ferry, so I guess that is 44 minute walk and total transit time of around 2 hours but costs you $100 per week in ferry costs…

        Next target for ‘affordable homes’ built by HCL currently looks like $800K + though and then getting into the city centre..

        14 Taniwha Street, Wai O Taiki Bay to Queen Street, Auckland Central
        Departs at 7:50 am
        53min
        757 HOP $3.30 return journey is $33 plus $10 HOP
        Thats nearly a 2 hour commute each day.

        Ngataringa Road, Devonport to Auckland Airport, Auckland Airport
        Departs at 6:36 am
        1hr 48min
        802X SKY HOP $21.30
        HOP $21.30 return weekly is $223 + $10 HOP but you can’t get there before 9am and you walk nearly 40 minutes of it.

        Helensville, Helensville to Queen Street, Auckland Central
        Friday 29 June
        Departs at 7:02 am
        1hr 45min
        125X HOP $7.50 Weekly $75 +$10 HOP
        Transit time return a day is 3 hours and 30 minutes (they do have an unused train line that could immediately service the area but nope they are building a new one instead).

        Unitec Auckland, Mount Albert to Queen Street, Auckland Central
        Friday 29 June
        Departs at 8:10 am
        45min
        195 HOP $3.30 Weekly $33 + $10 HOP
        Takes 1.5 hours return per day

        Kaukapakapa to Queen ST

        No public transport available.

        Karaka Road, Karaka

        No public transport available.

        The questions is that 3rd world countries seem to have better transport and it’s cheaper than us, why? Punishing people with more taxes isn’t going to solve the problem and adding more houses and people is going to make the congestion worse!

        It is a tax, not a solution for commuters!

        Meanwhile we have overseas billionaires bringing in slave workers for luxury hotels for tourists, living 10 to an apartment driving out the Kiwis… who will be the ones paying the commuter costs.

        Apparently if you go to a construction site, then the workers start running away as so many are working illegally, but of course taking up houses and adding to the congestion!

        There should be $100,000 fine for any illegal worker found on a construction site paid by the owner of the site, before long, a big clean up instead of adding to the problem by site managers and owners turning a blind eye.

  5. Sanctuary 5
    28 June 2018 at 7:03 am

    28 year old Justice Democrat Alexandria Ocasio-Cortez just dumped the fourth most powerful corporate democrat out of his congressional district seat…

    “What is the vision that will earn the support of working-class Americans – what we need to do is lay out a plan and a vision and getting into twitter fights with the president is not where we’re going to find progress.”

    https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2018/jun/27/alexandria-ocasio-cortez-who-is-she-democrats-new-york-life-career-policies

    Anyone who follows US TYT network would have seen the network’s co-founder and host Cenk Uygur having a hilariously joyful reaction to this news.

    Hmmmm… “Justice Left” candidates standing for selection against right wing Labour MPs in places like Wellington Central and rolling them. Sounds sweet to me.

  6. Sanctuary 6
    28 June 2018 at 7:30 am

    Worth looking up Cenk Uygur, a man whose political power is fast rising in the United States.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Justice_Democrats

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cenk_Uygur

    The Justice Democrats have come from nowhere in just a year to start to threaten the grip of the corporate Democrats.

    • Cemetery Jones 6.1
      28 June 2018 at 1:00 pm

      I thought Cenk got kicked out of the Justice Democrats back in December after internet posts from 20ish years ago resurfaced in which he admitted his enjoyment of an active and varied heterosexual dating life?

  7. Puckish Rogue 7
    28 June 2018 at 8:35 am

    For something completely different, a man who has his priorities right:

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZwMn9VMOBmQ

    • ianmac 7.1
      28 June 2018 at 9:24 am

      That is great thanks Puckish Rogue. My son has the complete works of Calvin and Hobbes including the boxed set. Calvin’s activities were replicated in our family.

      • Puckish Rogue 7.1.1
        28 June 2018 at 9:29 am

        For me Calvin and Hobbes is the best daily comic ever,even better than Peanuts (though respect for their TV specials)

        • Robert Guyton 7.1.1.1
          28 June 2018 at 2:08 pm

          Pucky. Discover Michael Leunig. Please.

          • Puckish Rogue 7.1.1.1.1
            28 June 2018 at 2:31 pm

            They’re not really dailys like Calvin and Hobbes but as political commentary and social observations they’re pretty good

            But I don’t see anyone playing Calvinball

        • gsays 7.1.1.2
          28 June 2018 at 8:06 pm

          Ok, you started it:
          the far side and, parochially, footrot flats.

  8. Puckish Rogue 8
    28 June 2018 at 9:19 am

    https://www.parliament.nz/en/pb/hansard-debates/rhr/combined/HansD_20180626_20180626

    Tuesday 26th June

    Hon PHIL TWYFORD: We are not anticipating bringing flat packs in from overseas. We are not planning on bringing workers in from overseas. The Kiwi element in KiwiBuild is young Kiwi families getting the opportunity to own their own home, after a decade of denial.

    Wednesday 27th June

    https://www.nzherald.co.nz/business/news/article.cfm?c_id=3&objectid=12078610

    The Government is proposing a dedicated Kiwibuild skills shortage list, pre-approving construction companies to hire workers from overseas, and accrediting labour companies to hire foreign workers for KiwiBuild in a bid to beef up the labour force needed to build the Government’s promised 100,000 houses.

    Tuesday: We are not planning on bringing workers in from overseas
    Wednesday: pre-approving construction companies to hire workers from overseas
    Thursday: Who knows because Twyford doesn’t seem to know

    • bwaghorn 8.1
      28 June 2018 at 11:18 am

      I guess he could just smile and say that there is no crisis in housing .
      I’ve found when trying to solve a large problem that making decisions and changing direction is far more important than steadfastly standing by your first attempt.

    • saveNZ 8.2
      28 June 2018 at 11:38 am

      @PR – perhaps bringing back slavery from 1800’s so that they can get cheap labour in like the cotton fields but in NZ it’s the building sites and aged care, as the affordable houses keep going up so that the workers can’t afford the houses, they allow the Foreign investors to buy the Kiwibuild houses and then rent them out to the aforementioned low wage workers while the taxpayer pays for their accomodation, WFF and health care so the financial industry makes even more profit than they do now as most of people’s expenses. Then people get disgusted by this and the Natz come back and create social bonds so the financial industry can profit from the social problems being caused by the low wages and overcrowding?

      • Puckish Rogue 8.2.1
        28 June 2018 at 11:41 am

        Not sure even Jacinda and The First Family could sell a policy of slavery but it would certainly make for some interesting sound bites 🙂

        • Planet Earth 8.2.1.1
          28 June 2018 at 11:48 am

          Try to keep up, we call them interns now!

          • Puckish Rogue 8.2.1.1.1
            28 June 2018 at 11:50 am

            I prefer…henchmen! (Sorry henchperson 🙂 )

            • In Vino 8.2.1.1.1.1
              28 June 2018 at 5:06 pm

              Nice word, but the plural henchmen would have to translate to either henchpeople or henchpersons…
              Personally, I have always shuddered at the word ‘chairperson’. It has always made me wonder if ‘workmanship’ should be replaced with ‘workpersonship’. Human with huperson; woman with woperson…

          • saveNZ 8.2.1.1.2
            28 June 2018 at 1:18 pm

            I think it was the Natz who said that doctors and teachers could come to NZ and work for nothing in the provinces and they would get food and water and help with their residency applications.

            The slaves were not paying $30k for that slave job either…

  9. mac1 9
    28 June 2018 at 9:22 am

    Real dufus of the week territory.

    https://www.newshub.co.nz/home/politics/2018/06/david-seymour-s-roast-of-the-green-party-backfires-hilariously.html

    The man is so important that he thinks that there is only one bus in Wellington and it must be the one he’s on.

    I do believe he’s on a different bus from most of us…………….

    One MP chipped him back saying that most MPs would be at work by 8 am, and he’s bowling up at 9.30. Another response was that they too would wait for the next bus if they saw him on board.

  10. esoteric pineapples 10
    28 June 2018 at 9:41 am

    Recreational cannabis no illegal in Canada. Oklahoma legalises medical marijuana. But in New Zealand it seems we are going to be stuck with harsh cannabis laws forever – maybe with medical MJ available at a high cost through pharmaceutical companies.

    https://www.rollingstone.com/culture/news/canada-legalizes-recreational-marijuana-use-w521754

    • Psych nurse 10.1
      28 June 2018 at 11:11 am

      Legalise cannabis, control the growing, distribution and sale. Take cannabis away from the control of gangs and criminals. Restrict sales to teens until their brains are of an age to cope with THC and we might have fewer developing psychotic illnesses. Just do something because the current model does not work.

      • Puckish Rogue 10.1.1
        28 June 2018 at 11:17 am

        I have no issue with this, in fact I’d like to see NZ try something along the lines of decriminalising all drug use (for personal use) and diverting the savings from prison to helping the addicted

  11. Puckish Rogue 11
    28 June 2018 at 12:32 pm

    https://www.stuff.co.nz/national/health/105016474/editorial-trust-me-i-know-what-im-doing

    ‘Health Minister David Clark is scrapping National Health Targets that publicly address district health boards’ success or failure in achieving, among other things, reasonable treatment times, numbers getting surgery, waiting times in emergency departments, and immunisations.

    Incredibly, the National Patient Flow project, which monitors the number of people turned away from surgery, and which Labour supported while in opposition, also appears to have been sidelined.

    Clark has indicated other, new targets may follow, but it is unclear what these will measure or whether they will be available to the public.’

    – So slamming National about health targets when in opposition and removing those same targets when in power

    I admit to admiring the chutzpah of it all but this is not good move, not least for “transparency”

    • Gabby 11.1
      28 June 2018 at 12:46 pm

      They might have caught on to the gaming of the targets puckers.

      • Puckish Rogue 11.1.1
        28 June 2018 at 12:52 pm

        Lets just say, for arguments sake, there’s gaming of the system, should Labour keep the targets and insist on new reporting techniques to get more accurate figures or should they just say trust us we’ll let you know how its going

        What option do you think will give the public trust that the DHBs are being run properly?

        • McFlock 11.1.1.1
          28 June 2018 at 1:24 pm

          Not if the concept of targets corrupts the holistic integrity of the system

          • Puckish Rogue 11.1.1.1.1
            28 June 2018 at 1:28 pm

            So how else are we to know whats happening, we’re supposed to just trust David Clark, given that’s he fast becoming Labours weakest link (which takes some doing)

            • McFlock 11.1.1.1.1.1
              28 June 2018 at 1:33 pm

              Oh you keep reporting and monitoring the health system. You just don’t divert resources into gaming a few narrowly defined targets.

              • Puckish Rogue …
                28 June 2018 at 1:37 pm

                But that doesn’t sound like its going to be happening:

                ‘Clark has indicated other, new targets may follow, but it is unclear what these will measure or whether they will be available to the public.’

                • McFlock …
                  28 June 2018 at 1:50 pm

                  Again: you can monitor and manage without setting specific targets. Pilots and seafarers do it all the time.

                  • alwyn …
                    28 June 2018 at 2:47 pm

                    “you can monitor and manage without setting specific targets. Pilots and seafarers do it all the time.”.
                    I really don’t think that when I am next flying from Melbourne to Wellington and the pilot sets the plane down on Soames Island that being told that he was near enough to Wellington Airport because he landed within 0.1% of the planned distance for the flight, and was pretty close to the correct route, is really going to console me.
                    I really would prefer specific targets.

                    • McFlock …
                      28 June 2018 at 4:15 pm

                      And yet if the pilot diverts to chch or wherever, that’s not an indication of poor performance.
                      While several crashes have occurred due to pilots making unsafe calls to meet destination/timeframe targets.

                • Robert Guyton …
                  28 June 2018 at 2:05 pm

                  Come off it, Pucky. National rigged the targets so they could report great success where there was little. Labour et al have put an end to that sort and are reforming the reporting framework to accurately reflect reality. You used to have something to say here but lately, your protestations have been very lame.

                  • Puckish Rogue …
                    28 June 2018 at 2:24 pm

                    There is something not right about this

                    • McFlock …
                      28 June 2018 at 4:18 pm

                      I think you might be having difficulty around the concept of evaluation without itemised goals/KPIs.

                    • Puckish Rogue …
                      28 June 2018 at 4:27 pm

                      During the election Labour used the targets to go after National, at no time do I recall any talk from Labour about scrapping the targets or how targets weren’t being used properly and now they’re in power and they scrap the targets and you don’t think theres something whiffy about it?

                    • McFlock …
                      28 June 2018 at 5:11 pm

                      I agree your recollection is probably whiffy, as health targets were a running joke down south.

                      But if you think it’s unfair to assess someone along the invalid criteria by they choose to be assessed and then ditch those criteria when in power, what exactly is the problem you see with it?

      • Gosman 11.1.2
        28 June 2018 at 1:00 pm

        Isn’t the issue then how they go about measuring the targets rather than the targets themselves? Unless you think you shouldn’t set targets for social outcomes at all.

      • marty mars 11.1.3
        28 June 2018 at 1:15 pm

        Ha – the righties didn’t like that one gabster – noice.

    • Stuart Munro 11.2
      28 June 2018 at 3:29 pm

      Meh – they were just the health version of “national standards” – not demonstrably use nor ornament. It would be a different story if any of these faux corporate standards had actually been working.

      • Puckish Rogue 11.2.1
        28 June 2018 at 3:42 pm

        https://www.nzma.org.nz/journal/read-the-journal/all-issues/2010-2019/2017/vol-130-no-1455-12-may-2017/7238

        ‘Mortality was unchanged among those discharged home from the ED, or those admitted from the ED to a hospital ward, suggesting the target was not being achieved by ‘shifting the risk’ to areas other than the ED. Most dramatic among their findings was that there was a significant fall in mortality among ED patients, equating to 700 fewer deaths in 2012 than there would have been had pre-target trends continued. This is an extraordinary finding.’

        Yup nothing working here eh

        • Stuart Munro 11.2.1.1
          28 June 2018 at 3:53 pm

          They may be able to make a paper argument – but down here in Dunedin their extreme fuckwittery was constraining renal surgery to 1 day a month, and even that was often cancelled due to a shortage of intensive care beds. National’s creative health accounting needs to be rebuilt from the ground up – it has no credibility outside the Gnats responsible.

          • Puckish Rogue 11.2.1.1.1
            28 June 2018 at 3:59 pm

            Hmmm Stuart Munros anecdote or The NZ Medical Journal complete with citations and research…what to believe, what to believe…on the balance of probabilities I might just have to go with the Journal but hey believe me when I say it was a close decision

            • Stuart Munro 11.2.1.1.1.1
              28 June 2018 at 4:11 pm

              It’s an article, not a paper, it might not be entirely without merit but there’s no evidence. It doesn’t even begin to validate the gross mismanagement that characterizes Gnat administration.

              • Puckish Rogue …
                28 June 2018 at 4:19 pm

                “It’s an article, not a paper, it might not be entirely without merit but there’s no evidence”

                You are more than welcome to go through the references and find anything that doesn’t strike you as evidence:

                References
                Ardagh M, Richardson S. Emergency department overcrowding – can we fix it? NZ Med J 2004; 117(1189).
                Ardagh M. The case for a New Zealand Acute Care Strategy. NZ Med J 2006; 119(1247).
                Ardagh M. How to achieve New Zealand’s shorter stays in emergency departments health target. NZ Med J 2010; 123(1316).
                Ardagh M, Tonkins G, Possenniskie C. Improving acute patient flow and resolving emergency department overcrowding in New Zealand hospitals-the major challenges and the promising initiatives. NZ Med J 2011; 124(1344).
                Ardagh M, Drew L. What have five years of the shorter stays in the emergency department health target done to us? NZ Med J 2015; 128(1421).
                Jones P, Wells S, Harper A, Le Fevre J, Stewart J, Curtis E, Reid P, Ameratunga S. Impact of a national time target for ED length of stay on patient outcomes. NZ Med J 2017; 130(1455):15–34.
                Jones P, Le Fevre J, Harper L, Wells S, Stewart J, Curtis E, Reid P, Ameratunga S. Effect of the Shorter Stays in Emergency Departments time target policy on key indicators of quality of care. NZ Med J 2017; 130(1455):35–44.

              • Puckish Rogue …
                28 June 2018 at 4:23 pm

                ” It doesn’t even begin to validate the gross mismanagement that characterizes Gnat administration”

                I’m guessing because its about: The ‘six hour target’ in New Zealand is associated with reduced mortality and greater efficiency

                I was saying why Labour scrapping targets in health is a bad idea and others were saying the targets weren’t being used properly and yet from the article itself:

                ‘Mortality was unchanged among those discharged home from the ED, or those admitted from the ED to a hospital ward, suggesting the target was not being achieved by ‘shifting the risk’ to areas other than the ED’

                ‘suggesting the target was not being achieved by ‘shifting the risk’ to areas other than the ED”

                • Stuart Munro …
                  28 June 2018 at 4:38 pm

                  Yes, I quite understand.

                  It really doesn’t have much to do with Gnat policy, it’s a discussion of clinical procedures. But you, being desperate to cobble something together to dilute the gross and gibbering inadequacy of Coleman’s administration, are trying to pretend that it was some kind of stroke of Gnat genius.

                  In fact it is clinically led, but far from revolutionary.

                  Whether Labour’s scrapping of particular health targets is good or bad rather depends on what they replace them with. We haven’t seen that yet, but you want to prejudice that discussion before it occurs.

                  I quite understand – all your stupid games are over, and we have an actual government for the first time in a decade. It must be painful watching them take apart the carefully constructed rorts and public sector demolition strategies. But we rather like that.

                • McFlock …
                  28 June 2018 at 5:43 pm

                  The question I have is where the benefit is demonstrated.

                  I mean, “had GFC trends continued” is a pretty unreliable benchmark to compare oneself against, especially regarding mortality rates (which have a habit of hiding within statistical uncertainty). 400 out of 30,000 deaths a year, split amongst multiple locations, could well not show up as a significant displacement from ED even if they all died somewhere else – or there was even an actual increase.

                  Neither use nor ornament is a possibility, and even if the reduction in ED crowding is good, it could possibly have been achieved in better ways.

                  • David Mac …
                    28 June 2018 at 6:17 pm

                    I don’t think it matters so much how we measure our journey on the way to desired a result just as long as we do.

                    We do better with a task when we measure our progress.

                    The rising roof fund thermometer sign outside the village church will raise funds for a new roof twice as fast than if it wasn’t there.

                    It’s why salespeople have quotas, we sell more when we have targets to aim for.

                    Measuring prompts everyone to do a better job.

                    • McFlock …
                      28 June 2018 at 6:28 pm

                      It can be counterproductive.
                      If the stats aren’t outright juked (like waiting lists or ED stays in the late 1990s/early 2ks), the next problem is dragging resources away from non-target areas to meet the targets. So the non-target areas become next year’s targets, but the overall problems in the health organisation (usually funding) haven’t been addressed.

                      And the flying a plane scenario also applies – what we have had for the last several years if not decades is a situation where the pilot is burning fuel to maintain a target speed, so fuel management becomes a target so the pilot changes altitude and throttles back, then takes credit for a tailwind over which they have no control, but then terrain becomes a problem, etc etc etc.

                      Whereas sitting back, monitoring all the gauges, balancing them against each other within broad limits, and making smaller changes to the overall scheme of things is a safer and more efficient way of managing the cockpit.

                    • Stuart Munro …
                      28 June 2018 at 6:31 pm

                      Only if the measures are honest.

                      By some measures Fonterra staff deserve enormous bonuses – measures they designed. In terms of rewarding improved farmer productivity and sustainability, maybe not.

                      We’ve seen the kind of measurements the Gnats prefer – those that omit public feedback and obscure poor service delivery.

                      Clark will need to be very bad indeed to do worse than Coleman.

                    • David Mac …
                      28 June 2018 at 7:25 pm

                      Yes McFlock, I don’t think it’s even targets that are important, the measuring is what makes a difference.

                      So rather than a pilot burning resources to maintain a target speed, as you say, monitoring gauges, height, speed, fuel burn rate etc. That’s measuring.

                      Health needs more $, it always has……there is no amount of money that would make the health sector report “Ahh, no we have all we need, we don’t need any more money thanks.” It’s the impossible dream. Medical R n’ D could exhaust a limitless budget.

                    • McFlock …
                      28 June 2018 at 10:33 pm

                      Measuring is not being challenged.

                      As for the idea of sufficient cash going into health, it’s not actually a bottomless pit. Diminishing returns also involve diminishing chances of successful treatment, and frankly a lot of the expensive treatments that hit the news as someone’s only hope are untested but promising at that time.

                      Sure, if you wanted to be absurd about it, a system could spend billions to treat one patient with a 1% successful treatment, but rationally-speaking after another few billion on health you probably wouldn’t get a measurable improvement for your population. Once all the rundown facilities and people are repaired or replaced.

      • psych nurse 11.2.2
        28 June 2018 at 6:27 pm

        The health targets were open to manipulation, for instance a broken leg would normally have been pinned and plated almost straight away, To meet targets for elective surgery this wouldn’t be done for some days so the surgery could be called elective and not acute even though ACC still paid for it. So the cost of treatment would be considerably higher due to the extended bed occupancy, longer rehabilitation and increased ACC payments.

  12. Herodotus 12
    28 June 2018 at 12:50 pm

    “amateurs talk tactics, professionals study logistics”.
    Looks like Phil Twyford is starting to understand. Unfortunately it has taken a broken promise or 2 to get Kiwibuild up, and to solve the housing and traffic problems we are going to need even greater numbers built and more cars on the road to satisfy the demand from the temporary workers.
    To solve, we increase the problems already at hand, and the silver lining of having companies provide training to increase the NZ skill base has also been dropped, how are we to future proof our work force skill base?
    Some will remember “teach a man to fish…” will that DOESN’T apply here.

    • saveNZ 12.1
      28 June 2018 at 1:22 pm

      Teach a man to profit and he will feed his family off the low wage workers he profits from, when things go bad, foreign investment will keep the profits going and government debt and charity provide the low wage worker’s food and accomodation, maybe the new mantra….

      • In Vino 12.1.1
        28 June 2018 at 5:17 pm

        Good, sNZ, but I suggest a minor alteration: ‘Teach a man to profit-gouge’…
        Back in the 80s they kept repeating the mantra ‘Profit is not a dirty word.’
        They have proceeded to profit-gouge ever since.
        Let’s call it what it is.

      • corodale 12.1.2
        29 June 2018 at 5:15 am

        Yeah, the corperates are very quick. Big supermarkets in Europe are hot on regional organics, and all sorts of crazy stuff. The local organic shops should be happy so long as the growth is balanced with farm conversions to ecological methods. Healthy demand for active organic shopkeepers, while prices here in Germany and other European lands are lower than in NZ. System shift on NZ’s cards too.

    • Ad 12.2
      28 June 2018 at 2:33 pm

      A few of the larger construction firms in New Zealand still do intensive training for people with very few skills. Minister Sepuloni and MSD have been pretty supportive of the skills hubs set up for this.

  13. ankerawshark 13
    28 June 2018 at 12:54 pm

    The Nats targets were not fit for purpose. There was no target for mental health. IMO this allowed funding to bleed out of this sector and services have become stretched to breaking point or almost non existent as in the case of funding for counselling that was scaled back dramatically…………………………..

    • David Mac 13.1
      28 June 2018 at 6:46 pm

      I think it’s outrageous that there are no targets set for a sector like mental health.

      How do we know if we’re winning or losing if nobody is keeping score?

      I think we need more measuring not less. Equip WINZ guards with clipboards and in a week we could survey 1000’s for few $. “Did you have an improved experience today? If you had a magic wand, what are your 3 WINZ wishes?”

      Great press release fodder and beehive ammo for the govt.

  14. Eco Maori 14
    29 June 2018 at 6:57 am

    Good morning The AM Show trump is spreading his self-centered views around America with justice Kennedy retiring trump does not even have respect for elderly people who have served Americans for 30 years he has no morel grounds he thinks his racist reality is the only one we all came from Papatuanukue so we all deserve a happy healthy future not just trumps rich m8.
    The reason the fuel taxes have to be higher is because national chose to ignore climate change they chose to slash the budgets of all state services no good plans except slashing state services budgets so they could give tax cut to the wealthy.
    We will see if the traffic jams decrease
    After the fuel tax affect Duncan
    Friday everyones happy the weekend is near.
    I’m making a point not to back any one sports team
    On Dairy farms calving will start 3 months of had slog I don’t miss the long hours checking calveing cows all hours of the night Paddy congratulations on catching your eye problems early and have managed to get the problem cured. And for high lighting the eye disease it’s a major problem in the Pacific Islands. Ka kite ano

  15. Eco Maori 15
    29 June 2018 at 8:01 am

    Here you go the sandflys had no morels under shonky rule he had a full time person writing smears storys about opperstion mps Nick Hagar book tells it all when shonky first showed up in our political seen all around Papatuanukue I read stories with key this key that I new that he was using the MSM to raise his profile he is a total control freek .
    I know the sandflys are – – – – with my children and Mokopunas lives that’s what they do.

    Link below

    https://adclick.stuff.co.nz/adclick?v=1&c=8609&p=mobileweb&s=/&l=/NZ
    Ka kite ano

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