Open Mike 30/11/2018

Written By: - Date published: 6:00 am, November 30th, 2018 - 222 comments
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222 comments on “Open Mike 30/11/2018 ”

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  1. Jenny 1
    30 November 2018 at 6:21 am

    NZ has diplomatic relations and trade deals with both these regimes, both from different imperial blocs.

    The Saudi authorities abduction and murder of journalist Jamal Khashoggi has been mirrored by Chinese authorities abduction of photographer Lu Guang


    Prominent Chinese photographer taken by police, wife says
    Yanan Wang – AP News, November 28, 2018

    NZ has diplomatic relations and trade deals with both these regimes, each from different imperial blocs.

    • Jenny 1.1
      30 November 2018 at 6:52 am

      Compromised as he is over Jamal Khoshoggi’s abduction and murder, President Trump who doesn’t give a damn about human rights anyway, will say nothing, to save Lu Guang’s life.

      I wonder whether New Zealand’s Prime MInister will say anything?

      Or will she in an echo of Trump keep her silence too?

      Because trade is more important.

      https://www.stats.govt.nz/reports/trade-with-china-nearly-tripled-in-past-decade

    • SaveNZ 1.2
      30 November 2018 at 9:26 am

      Thanks for that link, Jenny. Terrible.

      What sort of society/government fears, murders or abducts journalists and artists?

      About Lu Guang

      “Lu won first prize in the prestigious World Press Photo contest for a series on poor Chinese villagers who became infected with HIV after selling their own blood to eke out a living.

      His photos tackle gritty subjects like pollution and industrial environmental destruction — issues traditionally avoided by the Chinese press because they risk punishment for exposing societal problems that the government may consider sensitive.

      But Lu never had problems with the police before, according to Xu, who added that she was not aware of any photo projects he had planned for his Xinjiang trip.

      “He has a strong sense of social responsibility,” she said. “He believed, after confronting the faces of the destitute, that there were things that people should know. At the very least, he believed that (his photos) might motivate them to help others, to trigger change and make things better.”

      https://apnews.com/eb9c11440b944d5a8f548841c95704d1

  2. Ed 2
    30 November 2018 at 6:26 am

    We were chatting the other day about the number 11 and its recurrence in important events.

    The selection of the 11th hour on the 11th day of the 11th month to end World War 1. Remember this was an armistice. The timing was chosen. It was not a coincidence.

    The selection of 9/11 to attack New York and Washington.

    So my curiosity was piqued when I saw this in the news.

    “Strange seismic waves were picked up circling the globe on November 11. Now seismologists are trying to figure out why.
    Seismic sensors first picked up the event originating near an island between Madagascar and Africa. Then, alarm bells started ringing as far away as Chile, New Zealand and Canada.
    Hawaii, almost exactly on the other side of the planet, also picked up the ‘event’.
    Nobody knows what it was.
    Meteorite? Submarine volcano? Nuclear test?”

    Fascinating.

    https://www.nzherald.co.nz/world/news/article.cfm?c_id=2&objectid=12168640

    • WeTheBleeple 2.1
      30 November 2018 at 7:09 am

      It certainly is fascinating. I’m liking the ‘new volcano’ theory. We’ve never listened in on one before…

    • Gabby 2.2
      30 November 2018 at 10:22 am

      And it’s happened exactly eleven times since eventyleven eddy. Coincidence? I think not.

    • One Two 2.3
      30 November 2018 at 2:58 pm

      NZH – 29.11 – 2+9 =11

      Whatever event the article was actually about, the event was ‘significant’ …

      Numbers and Symbols ‘rule the world’

    • Robert Glennie 2.4
      30 November 2018 at 2:59 pm

      The Puysegur Trench has hosted volcanism in the past. The Solander Islands, southwest of Stewart Island are volcanic in origin. The Puysegur Trench denotes the subduction zone where the Australian Plate goes under the Pacific Plate and would have been the source of magma for the Solander Islands.

    • Robert Guyton 2.5
      30 November 2018 at 3:29 pm

      That theory’s got legs!

    • Andre 2.6
      30 November 2018 at 3:58 pm

      Nothing to worry about. It’s just a byproduct of Oumuamua using the Earth as a resonant focusing antenna to communicate its findings back home.

      • Descendant Of Smith 2.6.1
        30 November 2018 at 10:10 pm

        I’m just waiting for the rotation of the earth’s magnetic field – hoping it happens in my lifetime. It’s apparently well overdue.

        https://news.nationalgeographic.com/2018/01/earth-magnetic-field-flip-north-south-poles-science/

        • alwyn 2.6.1.1
          1 December 2018 at 12:34 pm

          I’m afraid that, unless your pseudonym is false and you really should be called “Descendant of Methuselah” you are unlikely to manage to last long enough to see it.
          Apparently it takes about 7,000 years on average to go through the process. If it isn’t winding down at the moment we aren’t likely to be around long enough to see the effects.

          Shame really. While it is taking place things would probably get quite interesting although cosmic rays would probably be a bit of a nuisance. It is the Earth’s magnetic field that deflects them and stops the ozone layer being stripped away. According to this article the field would decline before the flip takes place.
          https://www.nsf.gov/news/news_summ.jsp?cntn_id=100358

          I do like to see someone taking a long view though. Personally I am worried about the fact that the sun will, in a few million years, swell to the point that it will engulf the earth. We should be doing something about it NOW.

          • Tricledrown 2.6.1.1.1
            1 December 2018 at 12:46 pm

            Alwynger God your an idiot I have read the NG article which proves you can’t read. Sucked in by DOS’s head line bit of tongue n cheek.

            • alwyn 2.6.1.1.1.1
              1 December 2018 at 1:53 pm

              What on earth are you talking about you imbecile?
              I would have to say that your comment proves only that you are quite incapable of reading yourself. Certainly you haven’t been able to read or understand what I wrote.
              Can you not recognise tongue in cheek comments like mine when you see them?

              Actually there is an error in what I wrote. It should be a few billion years in the last paragraph, not a few million. There we can safely leave doing anything about it until Monday. We don’t have to start over the weekend.

  3. Ed 3
    30 November 2018 at 6:30 am

    Good to see Stuff keeping the Climate Change story at the front of their news.

    ‘Māori are among the most vulnerable to climate change.
    “When it comes to climate change it’s like the poorest people in the world are going to be hit the hardest first and that’s a lot of us.”

    https://www.stuff.co.nz/environment/climate-news/108755375/mori-are-among-the-most-vulnerable-to-climate-change

    “The proportion of the world’s people vulnerable to heat-related death and disease continues to grow because of human-caused climate change, a new report says.
    “Climate change is a medical emergency,” said Renee Salas, a doctor of emergency medicine at Massachusetts General Hospital and co-author of the report published by British medical journal the Lancet.
    In 2017, about 157 million more people were exposed to heat wave events globally than in 2000, the report said. “

    https://www.stuff.co.nz/world/108979464/extreme-climate-change-heat-medical-emergency-making-tens-of-millions-sick

    • patricia bremner 3.1
      30 November 2018 at 11:31 am

      Yes Ed, and reading the enlightening posts has given me two more ideas for mitigation of personal actions. As they say, small but significant changes add up.

  4. Enough 4
    30 November 2018 at 7:02 am

    CanTeen the charity for AYA (Adolescent and Young Adult) cancer patients is being decimated, with the majority of its Youth Workers being made redundant. https://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/news/article.cfm?c_id=1&objectid=12168670
    This is a catastrophe for young cancer sufferers in New Zealand particularly those in the regions where localised psycho-social services will be eradicated, with only the three main centres retaining specialist workers. The charity owns a multi-million dollar building in Auckland. AYA cancer disproportionately affects Maori and Pacifica.

    • James 4.1
      30 November 2018 at 7:09 am

      Article says a number of redundancy’s but enough says the majority of its youth workers will be made redundant.

      Sounds like spin and bullshit to me.

      “
      The organisation believes there are more cost-effective ways it can deliver its services and multiple opportunities to support more young people.”

      So it sounds like it’s going to be all good. Just need to trim some fat.

      • Enough 4.1.1
        30 November 2018 at 7:27 am

        “More cost-effective ways” ie replace culturally-aware, experienced locally-based NZ Youth Workers with an Australian online contact service.

        • James 4.1.1.1
          30 November 2018 at 7:45 am

          Spin spin spin

        • SaveNZ 4.1.1.2
          30 November 2018 at 9:30 am

          That’s shocking, Enough if you are right… sad, normal under Natz, but under a Labour/Green government?

          • Enough 4.1.1.2.1
            30 November 2018 at 10:06 am

            CanTeen provides vital community services throughout NZ and has done for 30 years. It raises millions annually through donations from the public and via the support of a few NZ corporate sponsors, but receives no government funding. The threatened future budgetary shortfall is risibly small – and could be easily fixed.
            Axing the regional service network, slashing staff and out-sourcing services to Australia is a panic measure from a desperate board. Perhaps their intention is to create a public response!
            The effect on young Kiwis who are diagnosed with cancer, their whanau and our communities will be significant.

        • Draco T Bastard 4.1.1.3
          30 November 2018 at 11:18 am

          Charities are highly inefficient. Far better to simply have the government ensure that those services are available.

          • Enough 4.1.1.3.1
            30 November 2018 at 11:25 am

            Agreed, especially given their abundance in NZ, but in the absence of government funded services……..?

            • Draco T Bastard 4.1.1.3.1.1
              30 November 2018 at 12:41 pm

              In the absence of government funded services then the best option is to show that the government needs to support them. Creating a charity may help that in the short term with the understanding that the charity is going away once full government support is implemented.

              • Enough …
                30 November 2018 at 1:19 pm

                Yes and after 30 years of CanTeen you might think the need for full government support should be readily apparent. In the absence of that support, ‘going away’ isn’t a viable option – not so long as “cancer disrupts the lives of 10 more young people each day”.
                Source: https://www.canteen.org.nz

                • Draco T Bastard …
                  30 November 2018 at 2:00 pm

                  I agree with that but has CanTeen been actively pushing for government provision of the services?

                  Or has it, as seems more likely, been simply operating as a charity, getting donations and telling people that they do Good Work?

                  • Enough …
                    30 November 2018 at 2:37 pm

                    Don’t know how actively CanTeen have advocated for public funding. Clearly they haven’t been successful in getting it. But, with an estimated 97,000 not-for-profit organisations registered in this country, there’s quite a lot of competition for funding from any source.

                    • Draco T Bastard …
                      30 November 2018 at 2:58 pm

                      And those 97,000 charities are getting the necessary funding and so it can be assumed that we can afford it. Just need a little more tax to cover it.

                      The big one though is how many of those charities are unnecessarily in competition with each other and thus producing high levels of inefficiency.

          • The Fairy Godmother 4.1.1.3.2
            30 November 2018 at 5:41 pm

            Plus 1000. Giving jobs to trusts and charities on behalf of central and local government using central and local government money reduces the accountability and democracy.

            • Enough 4.1.1.3.2.1
              30 November 2018 at 7:35 pm

              No argument in principle. Very tenable philosophically. But…

              Pragmatically, the sole provider of a vital community service (made without government funding) is compelled to drastically curtail its regional operations due to an anticipated funding shortfall.

              Specialist skills and expertise built up over 30 years will be lost in all but the three main urban centres where redundancies will also occur.

              Not sure that young cancer sufferers care too much about how we fund the support care they and their communities deserve. As long as it’s available – and that’s the real issue here!

  5. James 5
    30 November 2018 at 7:04 am

    https://www.nzherald.co.nz/business/news/article.cfm?c_id=3&objectid=12168616

    God I love amazon.

    I wish that they would open dist centres in NZ.

    We buy most of our stuff via amazon and save a fortune over locally – and the range is better.

    The high st isn’t dead – but it needs to change and adapt.

    • crashcart 5.2
      30 November 2018 at 8:50 am

      It is truly amazing what a great man can achieve simply by paying his staff starvation wages in tech based sweat shops. If only Kiwi businesses could learn to exploit their workers so keenly, the NZ elite too could gather more money than they could spend in 100 life times.

      • SaveNZ 5.2.1
        30 November 2018 at 9:37 am

        @crashcart, look at the headlines, a lot of businesses in NZ already pay their staff starvation wages… the government just gives a slap on the wrist a few hours community service in most cases, or nothing at all… so our country is probably already worse than the US.. we are operating far worse in NZ than Amazon which probably has better regulation than NZ who just waves people into NZ to work as slaves and then after a few years the tax payer can pay their workers welfare top ups.

        http://business.scoop.co.nz/2018/10/08/labour-inspectorate-chorus-report-alarming-not-surprising/

        https://www.radionz.co.nz/news/national/366712/whistleblower-exposed-exploitation-of-migrant-workers

        https://www.radionz.co.nz/news/national/313420/nz%27s-first-people-trafficking-conviction

        • patricia bremner 5.2.1.1
          30 November 2018 at 11:48 am

          This government has provided more inspectors and the repayments to workers and heavy fines for bad employer practices have increased. Also employers are losing the right to use immigrant workers for significant periods.
          Businesses flouting the rules will be pinged. Some of your statements are framed to implicate this Government. That is sad.You are giving no credit for efforts made. Granted it is still slow, but it is snowballing.

          • SaveNZ 5.2.1.1.1
            30 November 2018 at 2:47 pm

            The are working too slow. Giving the drug smuggler residency and only giving one year not to bring in Burger King fast food migrant workers is a joke after the are caught underpaying staff !

            As is allowing employers to bring in migrant workers for fast food, cafes, petrol stations , liquor stores etc in the first place! No wonder jobseeker allowances is on the rise.

            Guess what, the minimum waged migrant workers are adding to the welfare burden when they get residency often for a fake job as we don’t need people in those areas.

            If you can’t work out that adding in drug smugglers and minimum waged workers into NZ is going to be a massive social burden on the country in the future, something is wrong!

            Yes Labour better than Natz, but defiantly making a lot of wrong calls on TPPA and immigration and giving corporate welfare to construction to keep the said minimum waged workers able to keep coming in.

            Rather than John and Bills low wage culture here, I’d like to see an alternate high skills, high wage culture here under the new government.

            With all the crap going on in the US, NZ could be poised to actually get more tech started in NZ as a legitimate high skills outsourcer for example.

            Because unlike the third world which does not necessarily work with all the corruption etc, NZ offers a decent high skills alternative (getting worse with the 100% criminal drive) and there are decent skills in NZ that could be utilised to grow that area, not the low waged fast ‘obese’ food and liquor store and drug expansions, that occurred under the Natz and still growing under labour.

            • patricia bremner 5.2.1.1.1.1
              30 November 2018 at 9:06 pm

              SaveNZ I agree with a great deal you say.

              But a Government who found they had convinced Winston to come on board, a party part of a coalition who had never been in Government. WOW!

              To expect all to be solved in 14 months… it isn’t going to happen.

              I feel proud they have made a list of what they want to improve and are working through it.

              Why don’t you count the successes then list the “Please don’t forget”… as you say… “Better than the Nats” Cheers.!!

            • OnceWasTim 5.2.1.1.1.2
              30 November 2018 at 10:13 pm

              Sorry @ savenz, I agree with most of what you say, but so often your outrage is misdirected. More than that, you don’t ever seem to respond to anything that points stuff and things that could hold water: possibly/maybe/maybe I should consider/yes even…..

              Yes, they are working too slow. Patricia Bremner rightly states that numbers have been increased and you say not fast enough. (Agreed – we even had am overpaid ‘Stu’ assuring us about 4 weeks before the election – from memory on RNZ although I have the link somehere – that we had sufficient Labour Inspectors)
              You say not fast enough.
              That not only shows a lack of appreciation of how mammoth immigration policy, its failings, worker exploitation, public service incompetence, cosy little arrangements, etc etc etc actually is, but it also shows that where blame is being directed is completely arse about face.
              AS I was travelling Norf today, I stumbled on a ZB whilst scanning the bands and there was a Nafe – maybe it was some rural programme on the soon to be defunct RadioLive.
              Nafe (he who never inhaled from the Kapiti Coast) was lamenting the shortages of farming workers as it relates to immigrants on the one hand, woilst on the other doing his best to point out under this Minister (Mr I L-G) scumbags have been allowed to thrive.
              Nafe should be careful. That was almost like a confession as to how Immigration Munsters of Her Madge under the previous junta were able to interfere in those ‘operational matters’.

              …. Jeez, I’m actually getting fucking sick about talking/letalone thinking about it all.
              Christ……maybe on the way back I’ll discover something different from a comfy little Mora Panel and Lackwit Larry deluding himself that he’s representing the voice of the peeeepill

    • millsy 5.3
      30 November 2018 at 8:55 am

      IMO the Chinese and Vietnamese sweatshop workers who make our electronic goods get treated better than the workers at Amazon. That is why I don’t use them.

    • Cinny 5.4
      30 November 2018 at 9:48 am

      Just stay away from Alexa, James, she’s a dodgy piece of equipment.

    • Draco T Bastard 5.5
      30 November 2018 at 11:19 am

      World’s richest man Jeff Bezos added US$6.28 billion ($9.1b) to his fortune after his company, Amazon, recorded its biggest shopping day in customer history.

      That is what we call unearned income and is thus a great example of how these rich people are huge bludgers.

      • patricia bremner 5.5.1
        30 November 2018 at 1:42 pm

        It was suitably named Black Friday. Half price day. So they buy twice the junk.

        • Draco T Bastard 5.5.1.1
          30 November 2018 at 1:53 pm

          My point was that $9b didn’t come from anything he did. He just sat back and raked in the profits.

          I have no problem in paying the authors.

    • Gabby 5.6
      30 November 2018 at 11:26 am

      Then we could tax the buggers jimbo.

  6. WeTheBleeple 6
    30 November 2018 at 7:21 am

    Australian Govt logging company clear felling protected forest.

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OyWj5PoabHg

  7. Adrian Thornton 7
    30 November 2018 at 7:35 am

    The Guardian’s latest attack by their resident ‘Russia hysteria’ scribe Luke Harding on Julian Assange is coming unstuck, Wikileaks is threatening legal action and apparently offering to take a bet with The Guardian of a million dollars if they can show any proof…something Harding doesn’t seem to deem necessary in much of his writings.

    ‘WikiLeaks launches legal fund to sue Guardian for Manafort report
    https://thehill.com/blogs/blog-briefing-room/news/418756-wikileaks-launches-legal-fund-in-effort-to-sue-guardian-over

    Guardian Pushes Fake News on Assange
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jsaJS8MMtsQ

    And just for your entertainment this old favorite featuring Harding and Arron Mate’
    …enjoy.
    Where’s the ‘Collusion’?
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9Ikf1uZli4g

  8. Dennis Frank 8
    30 November 2018 at 7:47 am

    “In the Netherlands where cannabis use has been de facto legal, since the 1970s, youth use is half or less than it is here in New Zealand.” https://thedailyblog.co.nz/2018/11/29/guest-blog-jeanette-saxby-to-the-editor-of-stuff/

    Jeanette Saxby, Cannabis Clinician, Dip T, B.Ed, Drug and alcohol Counselling, Post Grad D Heal Sci. Response to last dinosaur standing Bob McCoskrie’s re-run of the antique scaremongering stance.

    • James 8.1
      30 November 2018 at 7:59 am

      There are some serious drug issues in Amsterdam- I’ve been offered every drug possible when walking around the tourist areas (normal Amsterdam may well be very different) but I was shocked how easy it was to get anything you may want.

      • Gabby 8.1.1
        30 November 2018 at 10:50 am

        You must look like an addict jimbo. Meat sweats maybe.

      • Draco T Bastard 8.1.2
        30 November 2018 at 11:23 am

        That’d be the unregulated ‘free-market’ that you like wouldn’t it?

      • Tricledrown 8.1.3
        1 December 2018 at 1:00 pm

        That is a more recent occurance since right wing govt in the Netherlands has restarted the war on Drugs it has made the Drug trade profitable again Rotterdam the biggest port in Europe is the through point where a large % of Drugs are shipped higher prices from recriminalizing help increase trade.

    • WeTheBleeple 8.2
      30 November 2018 at 8:41 am

      Nice one. I tore Bob’s ‘facts’ a new one yesterday.

      See Helius Therapeutics is trolling for NZ strains to own now. Offering a ‘genetics fee’ and possible royalties.

      The so called ownership of genetic material is offensive to me. Those handing in strains hand in the work of all who’ve gone before them, none of whom planned to created materials for millionaires enterprises. Legal and moral are in this instance mutually exclusive. We’re talking thousands of years of selective breeding somehow captured in legalese today.

      Watch carefully as big money players attempt to shove local small to medium players out of the market before they even start. Watch skilled caregivers and herbalists get caught in legal battles with companies who think they own the genes because some other schmuck sold them a clone.

      Local and sustainable. The alternative is adding international shipping, packaging, advertising budgets, executive budgets, travel, hotels, dinners, international regulations, market surveys etc etc. Meantime the planet…

      Patients should not be paying for millionaires lifestyles or the destruction of the earth. Especially for a herbal product. The bulk of our medicines are plant extracts exploited by industry, yet herbalists have been denigrated as idiot hippies the whole time.

      Big Pharma is a planetary problem, a thief and fraudulent exploiter. Don’t be fooled.

      • Dennis Frank 8.2.1
        30 November 2018 at 9:18 am

        Yes I have long shared your concern re genetic engineering & copyright law application. Owning new variations on nature’s evolutionary themes seems wrong. I prefer law based on the commons to law based on private property rights. It’s more traditional, even if less influential in our society.

        However I see a significant public interest in respect of quality control. Some folks are vulnerable to excess intake – particularly those with mental health problems. That’s where the rationale for reliable dosage specification comes from. So along with right to grow & own your own & share it with others, I see a place for regulated commercial providers. To design against Big Pharma controlling the market, we could use the community trust model that has prevailed in parts of Auckland for many years. If only community providers were licensed, industrial manufacture would remain small-scale & local. Would small business providers be included?

        • WeTheBleeple 8.2.1.1
          30 November 2018 at 9:55 am

          It is a bit of a minefield trying to make sense of what is real concern and what is propaganda spread by businessmen wanting to take the market for themselves. Much of the research on quality control and medical applications of various cannabinoid ratios and dosage has already been done. The testing of said ratios to fit local strains to products could be done in local labs there’s no magic juju to it.

          There is a huge body of cannabis literature already available and it will continue to grow. This is where some of the money needs to go. Adding our bit.

          A local independent research and regulatory organisation would be brilliant. One that services all NZ cannabis businesses, and business in turn support the research from their sales. Recreational product, should that happen, should support both research on medicinal applications, but also counseling and rehabilitation services. External oversight of the R&D arm to root out cronyism/corruption, and price gouging of patients or exploitation of suppliers.

          Turn it into it’s own self-sustaining ecosystem.

          This could be a huge boon to the economy directly through incomes to locals and indirectly through reduction in healthcare expenditure. We don’t need big pharma at all in this matter.

        • alwyn 8.2.1.2
          30 November 2018 at 12:17 pm

          I assume that you and Bleepie were opposed to, and spoke out against, the WAI 262 claim to the Waitangi Tribunal did you Dennis?
          After all a significant part of that was basically a claim to the ownership of genetic material wasn’t it?
          http://www.henryhughes.com/Site/news/Waitangi-Tribunal-Report-on-flora-and-fauna-WAI-262.aspx

          • Dennis Frank 8.2.1.2.1
            30 November 2018 at 12:49 pm

            No, don’t assume that. I’m neither Maori nor GE activist. If you’re fishing for a common principle applying, I doubt I can help. Perhaps it’s worth noting that they claim in respect of Treaty rights, and those specified derive from chiefs and traditional domains and practices, a Maori version of the commons derived from their tribal hierarchy & mana. I’d reserve judgment on any consequent court decision until that became available…

      • Draco T Bastard 8.2.2
        30 November 2018 at 11:25 am

        Legal and moral are in this instance mutually exclusive.

        IMO, that’s been true of capitalism for thousands of years.

        Patients should not be paying for millionaires lifestyles or the destruction of the earth.

        Nobody should. In fact, we need to make it so that the world doesn’t have millionaires.

      • patricia bremner 8.2.3
        30 November 2018 at 11:51 am

        Yes I agree, so we should support Hikurangi.

      • greywarshark 8.2.4
        30 November 2018 at 9:53 pm

        NZ has never had the drive, the vision, to go beyond immediate gratification. As soon as something has been developed we sell it offshore or a largeish shareholding.

        If someone far sighted tried something they would probably be denigrated in Parliament, a commie or something. We should have bought back the kiwi boot polish brand but no. It’s not as good having your brand bandied around if people don’t connect it with our country and we want to keep a good image. Or did – 100% Pure would make an honest man blush. Ergo we aren’t honest men?

        Which might be interesting under wider trade agreements. Could be we are called to account by somebody for bad advertising. Could be some company calls itself kiwi and sells its stuff to us.

    • SaveNZ 8.3
      30 November 2018 at 2:52 pm

      Legitimate work for the drug smuggler and a career path for him, if only we can get rid of him back to the EU and out of bludging off NZ’ers.

  9. halfcrown 9
    30 November 2018 at 7:58 am

    James @5

    I know this is another James windup, but I will bite just for the fun of it Amazon the company who avoids paying tax subsidised by the government, ALL governments around the world as their employees have to have food stamps to top up their wages. Amazon who does not have the overheads like the high street outlets like local taxes avoiding paying ANY tax. Amazon along with other predatory parasitical outfits like Wall Mart who have destroyed the traditional Ma & Pa high street trader in small town America and other counties inluding New Zealand. But I suppose that is THE MARKET working though I class it as GREED that is going to destroy this place.
    Lovely outfit
    Rather ironic I was in my favourite electrical store the other day and I saw this not needed bit of gimmicky Christmas rubbish that was supplied by Amazon
    Funny that I thought Amazon does not have to pay any tax whereas this shop would have to pay tax wages and rates etc selling this gizmo and anyone buying would have to pay GST and no doubt it was manufactured in some sweat shop in Asia paying min wages

    • Sabine 9.2
      30 November 2018 at 9:38 am

      rather then tell him what he knows and does not care about, simply go to and buy all your gifts this year and any other year of local Kiwi Artists? Of local Kiwi Tradies, in the locally own bookshop, and the likes.

      I don’t get it, i never bought of Amazon, nor Trade me, my eyes glaze over when i just look at that stuff, but yet, i miss nothing in my life.
      And considering the environmental effects, the cost of unemployment to me the tax payer, no Amazon is not cheaper, it is more expensive. But maybe James does not pay taxes and thus does not care.

      But yeah, in the power down thingy, why not buy all your feasts ingredients locally produced, get your ham from the local butcher rather then the supermarket, get your gifts of any of the many markets, give vouchers for the local tailor / seemstress to those that have a thing for frocks, and scour the recycle centres for knick knack that the kids may enjoy.

      So much more satisfying then ordering shit online in order to be cheap n nasty.

      • halfcrown 9.2.1
        30 November 2018 at 9:53 am

        “simply go to and buy all your gifts this year and any other year of local Kiwi Artists? Of local Kiwi Tradies, in the locally own bookshop, and the likes.”

        Been there, done that, and I agree 200% with the rest of your post

        One of our joys is the photogaphy we do, not only for trying to get excellence yet to be achieved in our photography but visiting some of the wild and great places we go to and the bird life and flowers and bush and so on Not bloody Shopping Malls.

        I saw on the nutters club the other week a funny that sums it up

        “How do you milk sheep?

        “Bring out a new i PAD”

        • Sabine 9.2.1.1
          30 November 2018 at 10:00 am

          i had a panic attack once in a Mall. Went there with my friend and absolutely lost it. The security had to help me get outside, cause i wuz paniking. t’was funny. Not.

  10. RedLogix 10
    30 November 2018 at 8:48 am

    From the good news dept:

    Renewable generation installation has accelerated to such an extent it is on track to provide almost 80 per cent of the electricity market by 2030, according to research from consultancy Green Energy Markets.

    https://www.abc.net.au/news/2018-11-30/renewables-now-heading-for-80-per-cent-of-electricity-market/10567838

    This is how real change happens; the price for renewables is putting the fossil fuels out of business. Scientists, researchers, engineers and business striving for the next market opportunity; capitalism certainly has it’s sucky aspects, but when it works it delivers what is says on the tin.

    • Andre 10.1
      30 November 2018 at 8:58 am

      Meanwhile in Texas, natural gas prices fall so low that producers have had to pay someone to take it away …

      https://247wallst.com/energy-economy/2018/11/27/hub-price-for-permian-basin-natural-gas-briefly-turned-negative-monday/

      Ain’t markets wonderful.

      • Gosman 10.1.1
        30 November 2018 at 9:12 am

        Natural gas is a much cleaner energy option than Coal. You can reduce emissions significantly if all Coal fired power was converted to natural gas.

        • WeTheBleeple 10.1.1.1
          30 November 2018 at 9:30 am

          This argument is true and false.

          It’s like giving heroin addicts methadone. Best to just take the pain and get clean.

          • Wayne 10.1.1.1.1
            30 November 2018 at 9:47 am

            You need a transition period. The “pain” you talk about would be large scale unemployment, if all thermal stations were simply shut down in say 1 or 2 years.

            New generation capacity can’t be built that quickly. And a fair bit of the new capacity has to be baseload, either geothermal or hydro. You are talking ten year from the initial decision to build to actual generation.

            • WeTheBleeple 10.1.1.1.1.1
              30 November 2018 at 10:02 am

              Hence why I said part of the argument is true Wayne.

              We need to be careful to do it right, not to milk the profits. there is a planet at stake.

              I think where gas is proximal to coal that is going to be used as there are not alternatives in place…

              Then, as an INTERIM measure, gas. Meanwhile alternative infrastructure is built as the problem has not been eradicated.

              • Tricledrown …
                1 December 2018 at 1:14 pm

                We the people will be eradicated problem solved.
                More effecient Solar cells and batteries are the answer.
                Graphene and NaCl batteries being developed that are more environmentally manufactured as well as practical these new technologies will mean much faster charging 7 times the time for holding a charge up to 1200 km on 1 charge but even more exciting is much lighter cheaper cars with graphene being the body / battery/and solar cells. Being lighter stronger easier to build.

            • Robert Guyton 10.1.1.1.1.2
              30 November 2018 at 10:39 am

              Gas = delay. Get on with it. Fonterra’s excuse for continuing to burn dirty lignite coal at their Hedgehope factory, is that there’s no gas available. There is wood waste though…

            • Sacha 10.1.1.1.1.3
              30 November 2018 at 12:53 pm

              Or we could decide to use the huge amount of hydro siphoned off for Tiwai as baseload. Ah, I see someone already raised that below.

        • Andre 10.1.1.2
          30 November 2018 at 9:31 am

          Converting an existing coal plant to gas is usually a substantial re-engineering and rebuild task. Big enough that it is very likely cheaper to simply install an equivalent amount of renewables capacity.

          In some areas, building new renewables is cheaper than the marginal operating cost of existing coal plants. It won’t be long before the same is true of natural gas plants. 10 or 20 years ago, gas appeared to make sense as a lower-emission bridge to a zero-emission future. Now it’s clearer it’s just a dummy bridge to nowhere.

          • Wayne 10.1.1.2.1
            30 November 2018 at 9:53 am

            The major thermal plant in NZ, being Huntly is co-gen, already able to burn gas.

            If you want an immediate (anything less than a 5 year shutdown of Huntly), you loose 1000 MW from the system. Neither wind or photovoltaic can substitute. You need something that can run at night and in bad weather conditions, and able to push 1000 MW into the grid. Basically geothermal or hydro.

            That is why the govt is not following your advice. They know for at least 10 years (probably more) thermal is a necessary part of the the generating system.

            • WeTheBleeple 10.1.1.2.1.1
              30 November 2018 at 10:12 am

              Has anyone suggested a means of reducing national usage as a permanent thing not the repeated ‘cut down now as the water is low’ message we keep getting? Aren’t there a myriad of small things that might be done to help. does the government have data on the efficacy of the following:

              Regulate new appliances, public education, solar subsidies, passive heating and cooling systems, etc?

              What about techniques for groundwater replenishment to build resilience against drought and the subsequent power issues?

            • Andre 10.1.1.2.1.2
              30 November 2018 at 10:35 am

              I didn’t actually suggest shutting Huntly. Although if the govt ever actually did ask my opinion, yes, I would consider it a high priority.

              Huntly was originally designed to be able to burn either gas or coal right from the beginning. As such, the original 1000MW of generation sacrificed the efficiency gains possible from combined cycle operation and runs on the same crappy thermal efficiency available from coal. Because the gas is burned in the same temperature limited boilers as when it’s operating on coal. It’s only the more recent addition of an additional combined cycle unit (where the gas is burned to drive a turbine, then the turbine exhaust passes through a boiler to heat steam) that’s significantly better than coal from an emissions perspective. But that new unit can’t run on coal.

              There’s an easy way to shut down Huntly with negligible risk to security of supply: stop exporting huge quantities of electricity for a tiny return (compared to the price we’re charged here) in the form of shiny bars from Tiwai point. Then maybe market forces will take over and the aluminium companies will do the right thing and build solar farms to take advantage of the extremely good solar energy resource right where a lot of the bauxite is actually mined. As an extra bonus, transport costs would come down too, since half the weight of the alumina shipped around the world to get refined is the oxygen that has to be removed from the aluminium.

              And just to get ahead of the cries of “jobs, jobs, it’s worth it for the jobs”, the whole Southland employment thing is just a convenient pressure point to allow foreign companies to continue rorting us all. We’d be much smarter to do the right thing for the country as a whole, and deal with employment issues in Southland as a separate issue.

              • Wayne …
                30 November 2018 at 11:11 am

                Well, Tiwai does use about 600MW, and directly and indirectly employs 3,000 well paid people. Plus Meridian has a long term supply contract they can’t just break. So that is also at least ten years away, if even then.
                In short NZ needs about 1000mw of new baseload generation. If it is to be renewable it has to be geothermal or hydro. Meridian has a proposed 500mw canal project for the north side of the Waitaki river below Benmore. Planned 15 years ago, but on hold ever since. It would take 10 years to build. Conceptually similar to the canal project already in existence around Twizel. Fairly limited environmental effects compared to major dams.

                • Andre …
                  30 November 2018 at 11:43 am

                  Yeah, the Waitaki is one I’ve had heated discussions about, with other environmentally concerned types. While I’m not completely in favour, on balance it’s one I support.

                  Adding pumped hydro storage is another option for improving supply security, flexibilty, and taking better advantage of intermittent renewables.

                  For a large part of its run, the Waikato runs through fairly degraded land. While most of the soils around there around unsuitable for dams, it would be very surprising if there weren’t at least a few sites suitable for new lakes above existing ones. Let alone possible sites around places like around the lake on the Moawhango on Defence land near Waiouru, around Lake Taupo, etc etc.

                  That might also improve flexibility for running the existing hydro plants on the Waikato. As I understand it, very little of the lake capacity along the river is significantly used for storage, those stations are primarily operated as run-of-the-river controlled by the gates at Taupo.

                • Tricledrown …
                  1 December 2018 at 1:30 pm

                  Cost of building Dams not financially viable any more Clyde Dam was another National Party f/up original price $500 million double the 2 low dam proposal ended up costing $2.5 billion life span 60yrs silting will make it inefficient by then. National sold Clyde for a fraction of its cost effectively subsidising Contact energy. Solar and Batteries don’t require massive infrastructure to deliver power are the best long-term solution.

              • Gabby …
                30 November 2018 at 6:10 pm

                Or we could just cut Auckland off anders. We can deal with breakdown of civil order issues as a separate issue.

                • Andre …
                  30 November 2018 at 6:20 pm

                  Make a good argument why that’s in the country’s best interest and I’ll probably agree with you. Hell, even a mediocre argument will probably do the trick.

            • Draco T Bastard 10.1.1.2.1.3
              30 November 2018 at 2:49 pm

              The major thermal plant in NZ, being Huntly is co-gen, already able to burn gas.

              And the conversion took years.

              Neither wind or photovoltaic can substitute.

              That is an outright lie.

              Both wind and photovoltaic can substitute.

              That is why the govt is not following your advice. They know for at least 10 years (probably more) thermal is a necessary part of the the generating system.

              OMG, you mean that it might take central planning?

              As I say – power generation and reticulation is a natural monopoly and such must be a government service.

        • Draco T Bastard 10.1.1.3
          30 November 2018 at 2:46 pm

          And still far more polluting and far more expensive than any renewable generation.

    • WeTheBleeple 10.2
      30 November 2018 at 9:05 am

      You can see why the Aussies are moving fast. Their yard is on fire.

      So pleased they have something to celebrate. Going to have to rethink agriculture next.

      Crops burning in the sun. Bats falling from trees. Temps > 40 C.

      https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=S8YPg0Vw_Uk

      • Sabine 10.2.1
        30 November 2018 at 9:39 am

        lets cut down some more trees.

      • Robert Guyton 10.2.2
        30 November 2018 at 10:42 am

        There are bats here. So far, they’re not falling, due to the heat. Forest clearance has destroyed most of them however. One way or another, we’ll finish the blighters off! We were visited by a bat-researcher last week. She knows bats like no one I’ve ever met. She even bought bat soft-toys and puppets in for our grandchildren to play with – ready for anything, was Batwoman!

      • Exkiwiforces 10.2.3
        30 November 2018 at 5:50 pm

        We’ve got a few problems atm here in Darwin with CC, like this article say and we have noticed the decline in our sea mammals while fishing in habour and other areas. Also on top of this our local turtle population is slowly declining as the sandy beaches where they laid their eggs is heating up causing the eggs to produce more females turtles than males one.

        https://www.abc.net.au/news/2018-11-30/darwin-harbour-dolphin-population-decline-worries-scientist/10157960

        • greywarshark 10.2.3.1
          30 November 2018 at 6:37 pm

          Can you start an in group called the Ninja Turtles and weave some loose grass mats that are supported on poles to cover and form shade over their favourite areas, them have guards over them till the breeding seas on is over?

        • Robert Guyton 10.2.3.2
          30 November 2018 at 9:34 pm

          ” the sandy beaches where they laid their eggs is heating up ”
          It’s the unforseen circumstances that will sink us.

    • Draco T Bastard 10.3
      30 November 2018 at 2:45 pm

      And it could all have been done faster and all without the dead-weight loss of profit or the sucky aspects.

      Capitalism slows down the necessary changes so as to protect the rich. It also entrenches those sucky aspects so as to protect the rich.

  12. WeTheBleeple 12
    30 November 2018 at 9:24 am

    high time to roll up our sleeves save the planet.

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vpTHi7O66pI

    • greywarshark 12.1
      30 November 2018 at 5:14 pm

      I was very impressed with Alan Savory and Watson too WtB. These are the sort of things to inspire us to action.

  13. Dennis Frank 13
    30 November 2018 at 9:35 am

    Brigitte Morten also remains puzzled: “The investigation into the handling of the Karel Sroubek immigration case was meant to provide clarity on what led Immigration Minister Iain Less-Galloway to making the decision to grant him residency.”
    https://www.radionz.co.nz/news/on-the-inside/377159/pm-s-xmas-gift-an-immigration-portfolio-to-someone-else

    “Unfortunately, following the release of the review I, like most people, am even more confused. And even less confident in the minister’s actions.” Labour pretends to believe in transparency, then obfuscates to make the situation as obscure as possible.

    Could it be that whoever does political management for Labour has gone on holiday early? This missing person clearly doesn’t want the public to know why the Minister made his decision, nor why he has changed his mind. Otherwise he would have told us, right? Was he set up by a Nat-leaning public servant? If yes, then the traditional left/right collusion has to be applied to cover that up, I presume. I’d rather Labour informed us of the facts instead of prevaricating.

    • SaveNZ 13.1
      30 November 2018 at 9:44 am

      Sooner that drug smuggler get deported the better. A proportion of Kiwis will be paying good money to tourist in the EU, it is a joke that he doe’s ‘not feel safe there’ but was a ‘bit homesick’ so went back for a day. Hmmm, I can think of a few other reasons a convicted drug smuggler might enter a country for a day… and now we have to pay for his prison stays, get rid of him ASAP and use those resources on people in this country less privileged who get nothing and need the resources he is currently bludging off our country for.

      • J 13.1.1
        30 November 2018 at 11:19 am

        SaveNZ
        Remember Thiel he made $30million off the taxpayer through the stupidity of steven joyce and a clause in a partnership betw Thiel and the national govt. Has he even been to NZ? What taxes is he paying? He’s a bludger that nats let in after 12 days.
        He didn’t even get his certificate in NZ that allowed him to live here. He’s your bludger.
        Key is the alleged ‘crim’ who technically assaults a young female without her consent and gets away with it. He’s now bludging off New Zealanders’ taxes and attacking the current Government through his banking position.

        Multi-millionaires and billionaires are the bludgers throughout the world, including NZ.

        When they are forced to pay the taxes they should be paying, then those without will be able to live in a country that offers them so many free services for their education, health and welfare and all the jobs that come with that.

        Sroubek is just a person that is being used to try and destroy a government. The real bludgers are sitting in the opposition seats in parliament using their extensive financial and international/domestic sources – other bludgers on the public purse – to screw our democracy over.

        Take your blinders off. You’re not a horse.

        • patricia bremner 13.1.1.1
          30 November 2018 at 1:46 pm

          Was Joyce ever made responsible?

          • alwyn 13.1.1.1.1
            30 November 2018 at 3:04 pm

            It was a standard clause in all the contracts that the New Zealand Investment Fund went into after it was founded in 2002.
            Very silly clause of course and it was removed from all their new deals in 2015.
            It was certainly something that Joyce should have spotted when he took over responsibility for their fund in 2009. However perhaps you should still enquire of the people who set up the fund in 2002 what the hell they thought they were doing.

            That is irrelevant of course and Joyce has to be held responsible. He had been in the role for a year or so when the deal was made and he should have spotted the effect of such a clause earlier.

            It is exactly the same as the fiasco of the Census, where James Shaw has to be held responsible, or Immigration where Lees-Galloway is at fault for his current mess. They are in the job and the mistakes made after this long are all theirs to take the blame for. Just as Joyce couldn’t really blame the preceding Government for the Thiel deal they can’t say that they aren’t responsible for the stuff ups by the current CoL.

            I expect you will call on Shaw and Lees-Galloway to take responsibility and do what Joyce has done and leave Parliament. Time for them to resign from Parliament wouldn’t you agree?

            • J 13.1.1.1.1.1
              1 December 2018 at 6:04 pm

              alwyn 13.1.1.1.1
              30 November 2018 at 3:04 pm
              Alwyn,
              I spent half an hour writing my reply to you yesterday and the internet went down as I clicked to send.
              Since it’s you, I won’t bother to write it up so beautifully again.

              Suffice to say that in 2002 after the horrors of Act’s douglas and richardson, we were all looking to a better future under a less ideological government that had realised the damage wrought by the chicago boys global takeover. We were beginning to trust in government and business to work together on behalf of all of us – even you.

              Unfortunately, in 2004, NZ got key, stalking a suitable place to engineer his entrance to politics. In Helensville – how convenient. Although, didn’t he roll some worthy nat’s promised place to get that candidacy? Dirty politics began then and hasn’t stopped.
              English went through “line by line, cutting waste” he told us that himself – but waste to him was education, health, transport, etc. When he came to the NZIF clause he did nothing. He, key and joyce knew it would be handy for some future abuse.
              The secretive Waitemata Trust was started in 2005 to finance the party’s campaign or was it just for key and the people of Dirty Politics. I don’t know. Who donated Alwyn? Was it key? USA for a job he was here to do? That question has yet to be answered?
              Enter joyce (and the generous media works loan to him by taxpayers – did he pay it back?) and his very generous package to thiel ending in a loss to taxpayers in nat’s time. The nats couldn’t wait to use that clause for their gain, not KIWIS’ benefit.
              The more moral and ethical members of national (and I’m being kind here) would be turning in their graves to see the carcass that is national 2018. Politics is one thing, Alwyn, but corruption is another.

              Greed has no conscience; it has no morals; it has no sense of what is right and wrong. It just wants and does not care how it gets its wants. I guess you already know that Alwyn.

              As for Lees- Galloway and Shaw leaving parliament – seriously? LOL
              They are two of the finer features of our parliamentary lineup. If you suggest they are not, that must put nats into negative. But good to see you have a sense of humour in your hour of need, dear.

              • alwyn …
                1 December 2018 at 7:18 pm

                I really do think that you shouldn’t have bothered.
                Almost everything you have written is wrong.
                1. Douglas was a Labour MP until 1990, when he first retired. He was only an ACT MP from 2008 to 2011 and was not in the house for the 12 years preceding 2002.
                2. Richardson was never an ACT MP. She was in the National Party and had retired in 1994.
                3. Key became an MP in 2002, not 2004.
                4. Your remarks about English are total rubbish. You should be ashamed of yourself.
                5. The Waitemata Trust was anything but secretive and it certainly wasn’t started in 2005. It was entirely legal.
                6. There was no loan to Media Works in what most people understand the term to mean. They were like any other broadcasting organisation allowed to pay of their licence over time rather than in a single payment covering 20 odd years of a licence.
                7. Nothing went to Joyce. He didn’t work for them then and hadn’t for years. He had no ownership of the business at all at the time.
                8. The Crown didn’t lose from their investment in Xero. They didn’t make as much as they might have but that isn’t a “loss”.
                9. Thiel may have made money but National certainly didn’t.

                At least I see that you have retained your sense of humour though. When you can finish with such a wonderful joke as “They are two of the finer features of our parliamentary lineup” I couldn’t help but crack up laughing.

                • J …
                  2 December 2018 at 6:05 pm

                  As I thought Alwyn, you’re not too good on the finer nuances are you. The Hollow Men was all about national’s politics of deception.

                  1. Douglas had an epiphany on mt pelerin and decided to let the markets rule. That has never been a true Labour value. Even Lange finally realised what douglas and co were up to. Labour was thrown out in 1990 – and I have always seen that decade as the biggest nat/extreme right set up I have ever seen. (politics of deception)

                  2 Hollow Men. pg 52 CIS breakfast6 Aug 2004 guest list included richardson, kerr, judd, 2 act mps, hide, franks, banks, Mcleod, gibbs, friedlander (so called Independent editor McManus). The only national mp present was don brash and this was his political peer group. (politics of deception and self interest)

                  3. Apology. I was going to take your word for it until you became a denier about English. So I had to double check. Yes you were right (but we already knew that). 2004 was when I saw the photo of key in a magazine (North and South, perhaps?); a photo which led me to think – yep, he’s probably going to be pm and then the rot really will set in. The eyes showed a sociopathic tendency, masked by the smile which didn’t reach the eyes. Eyes show the soul of a person. It was not a good day when I saw his face. Helensville was a safe national seat. That was a dirty race too. Apparently, boag engineered key in and got rid of sitting mp brian neeson. Sadly, of course, it just gave the dirty politics of nz more time to destroy our political system (politics of deception and – betrayal – Neeson’s word)

                  4. english had to pay back housing money obtained from the taxpayers’ purse. he swallowed dead rats to get into government to pursue a course of market driven plans. While publically helping workers to survive the 2007 gfc he was removing most of their working rights, pay and conditions and welcomed in a low wage economy for everyone except ceos. he and key should have been drummed out of the country for their policies. Instead they brought a whole new low to the practice of bestowing knighthoods, once considered a real honour when applied to people like Sir Ed, now just a sad joke. Key brought them back so he could get one; there was never any honour in that, just his personal gain. (politics of self interest)

                  Mental health under english languished and went backwards. Mid to late 90s http://werewolf.co.nz/2017/08/bill-english-the-forgotten-history/ Read the whole piece and stop talking nonsense about english; he’s a market ideologue, but he was just better at being deceptive with his true plans than brash was. That’s not a compliment by the way, although I can’t help feeling you would admire that, Alwyn.

                  he and key refused to accept and act on the mounting crisis of infrastructure and housing for our own people never mind the politically motivated increase in immigration and tourism which brought it all to breaking point and jokes starting with cars being a roof over the heads of the poor and even the working poor.

                  And there is so much more for him and you to be ashamed of if you support him. (politics of bad policies for party backers)

                  5. Waitemata trust – http://www.scoop.co.nz/stories/PA0609/S00262.htm
                  ‘The National Party has admitted that its use of secret trusts violates the intent of electoral law and must now reveal the big money backers behind the Waitemata Trust, Labour Strategist Pete Hodgson said today.
                  ‘Over 92 per cent of National’s 2005 election spend-up was financed through blind trusts. Around two-thirds of National’s funding – or $1.2 million – was laundered through the National Party operated Waitemata Trust under the name of Robert Browne.
                  ‘Gerry Brownlee admitted this morning that this violates the intent of the law, but unfortunately current legislation is powerless to stop it. We have always relied on the good will of parties to not abuse the system, but it appears that we can’t afford to do that any longer.
                  But they did nothing.
                  Oh yes Alwyn, yet another example of trust being abused, by your very own nats, Alwyn. A gentleman’s handshake was once all that was required. Until we realized that the gentlemen of the 1980s 90s and 2010s would happily bite the hand that made them rich. So no, maybe not illegal, just shabby, secretive, underhanded and so nat Dirty Politics.

                  6 and 7. When government allows a private business to have an advantage it wouldn’t have in a pure market economy, which key, english and joyce love, they are just betraying their own ‘leave it to the market’ belief. And that is ever only when it advantages them or their friends.
                  ‘Nothing went to joyce.’ I don’t care whether joyce worked for them or still owned them or not. You are well aware of the group think of business that says ‘I’ll give you this from the taxpayers’ pocket or I’ll arrange to override the usual cut off point for payment and you help me out when I need something.’ The person in the street wouldn’t get that perk.
                  It’s politely called networking by people who are looking for jobs but business favours for those that work in a small group of self-interested people. Back to page 52 of The Hollow Men. (Politics of self interest)

                  8 and 9. When the crown hands money over to business it should be with the same outcome – equal profit if it goes well; share the loss if it doesn’t. Thiel is a billionaire. To me that is a crime that he made $30 from his small outlay and the people of New Zealand got about $2m from their larger initial outlay. The taxpayers of New Zealand are helping the thiels to become richer, with absolutely no real benefit to New Zealanders.
                  The fact that you think this is okay demonstrates perfectly that the rot of key english and joyce is an acceptable part of politics, your type of politics.

                  Wrong again Alwyn. When the wealthy make money from the taxpayer with nats help, they always remember. Very expensive campaign dinners e.g. with peter talley, for large donations.
                  And now we come to Lees-Galloway and Shaw. I know you think it’s hilarious that I have some faith in the goodness of these two people, whereas I have none in the aforementioned self-interested ideologues key, english, joyce, etc, but that comforts me somewhat in that I judged you correctly from the start. We are at opposite poles, politically and that makes me feel so much better. Thanks for that.

          • SaveNZ 13.1.1.1.2
            30 November 2018 at 3:11 pm

            @patricia bremner, nope and he should be, likewise anyone else whose stupidity comes into question and they effectively lose public money, give away assets like water, and then shrug it off. Stupidity is not an excuse.

            • J 13.1.1.1.2.1
              1 December 2018 at 6:56 pm

              SaveNZ 13.1.1.1.2
              30 November 2018 at 3:11 pm

              You just described john key, steven joyce, bill english.

          • J 13.1.1.1.3
            1 December 2018 at 6:08 pm

            ‘Was Joyce ever made responsible?’

            I’m still laughing, Patricia Bremner.

        • SaveNZ 13.1.1.2
          30 November 2018 at 3:04 pm

          Sroubek is not being used to destroy a government, he’s highlighting what is wrong with our immigration. If then government want to keep justifying why he such a good catch for NZ and why we need to have him here, then they do so at their peril. The average Joe, knows the EU is a pretty safe place to go back to, if Iain and the immigration department don’t know that, then they are looking like fools for believing the guy over the safety of the public of NZ and public good of NZ. He’s costing a fortune to have here for example, and we have kids going blind due to a lack of resources here? That is what the issue is, don’t make it about the Natz, or politics, something is wrong with immigration in NZ, and this case is just highlighting it.

          • J 13.1.1.2.1
            1 December 2018 at 6:25 pm

            ‘ don’t make it about the Natz, or politics, something is wrong with immigration in NZ, and this case is just highlighting it.’

            Of course it’s about the nats.
            Of course it’s about politics.
            And I totally agree that immigration processes need to be overhauled and both officials and MPs protected from dirty politics.

            I just don’t like seeing a perfectly good MP being attacked for political gain. I demand New Zealanders’ right to a corruption-free parliament.
            I equate corruption with dirty politics because one or more persons stand to gain something they don’t deserve.

        • SaveNZ 13.1.1.3
          30 November 2018 at 5:30 pm

          I’m all for cancelling Thiels citizenship on the grounds that he did not do what he said he was going to do when his citizenship was granted.

          The point should be that it takes 20 years for someone to get residency here, not 2 -5 years because if it takes longer then it means that a clearer picture of someones life and if they actually want to stay here long term, as well as their character, and if they earn enough money here, to pay for the freebies they get as citizens like health care etc.

          At present, the Kiwi’s seem to be supporting far too many migrants with dodgy deals aka Thiel, prison stays aka Sroubek and truckloads of fake workers with exploitive migrants employers, and now we hear that that lonely migrants once they get residency/citizenship can just get online and marry someone from overseas whose about to retire, after a couple of weeks chatting online!

          If you can’t work out that seems to be a death sentence for NZ as a welfare country if that is allowed to continue… Kiwi’s pay taxes for their own health and welfare, and housing, they shouldn’t and can’t subsidise the world who have no reciprocal health care, no superannuation, no social welfare in their country, few human rights…

    • SaveNZ 13.2
      30 November 2018 at 10:08 am

      Bizarre comparison with Dotcom.

      Dotcom was firstly a person with outstanding technical and business skills that never had a day in prison, bought money and employment to NZ and was targeted by Hollywood for a copywrite case which should have be sorted out in civil court with Hollywood paying the money if they lost (which they eventually did as it was proven false that Dotcom’s company breached copywrite laws). As far as I am aware has never budged off our country for welfare.

      Sroubek is a career criminal wanted in multiple countries and came to NZ on a false passport, screwed over everybody he comes into contact with by the sounds of it, has been in NZ jail for years, has court orders against his wife, his victim in hiding, hangs out with gangs in NZ…etc etc Has already cost millions in welfare with prison stays, legal aid, and criminal justice and keeping some of his victims in hiding and who knows what else.

      One seems to be falsely accused for political purposes and if there are victims they are billionaire in Hollywood (the rich and the Natz, with John Banks donations) and one (Sroubek) is already convicted and guilty but the immigration minister and cronies want NZ to support the low life the rest of his life by the sounds of it and the victims (who are generally poor) of his crimes get their noses rubbed into it.

      Time to have, anyone is NZ who is convicted of a serious criminal act, be deported straight away! They seem to be recruiting criminals as residents in NZ for the 100% Pure Criminal NZ campaign.

      • ianmac 13.2.1
        30 November 2018 at 10:14 am

        “One seems to be falsely accused for political purposes …”
        So true. National is using and abusing the system for political gain. You have also made false statements in your para “Sroubek is a career criminal wanted in multiple countries ….”

        • greywarshark 13.2.1.1
          30 November 2018 at 11:12 am

          ianmac You are referring to savenz at 13.2 – just to be definite. Are you thinking that when the appeal is on or over, a lot of matters that show a different picture will come to light? Or are you saying that the publication of supposed bad behaviours and crimes which are not proved means that we are trying the case in the public arena unfairly?

          • ianmac 13.2.1.1.1
            30 November 2018 at 12:09 pm

            Yes grey. Ref to 13.2 where he writes false or exaggeration;
            “career criminal wanted in multiple countries…”
            “screwed over everybody he comes into contact with ”
            “has court orders against his wife,”
            “his victim in hiding”
            “hangs out with gangs in NZ”
            “cost millions in welfare with prison stays, legal aid,”
            “keeping some of his victims in hiding”
            Most of that is untrue or just spin from the Opposition. Strip it down to the known truth and you have a simple crook who has done wrong but not the Mr Big he has been built up to seem.

            • SaveNZ 13.2.1.1.1.1
              30 November 2018 at 2:54 pm

              Even if he is the ‘simple crook’ he’s still be bludging off NZ in the prisons for the past few years, possibly on legal aid, not exactly what many kiwi’s think are a good criteria for migration here. That we know!

            • greywarshark 13.2.1.1.1.2
              30 November 2018 at 4:15 pm

              Yes i think we make a stronger case for being a post where things are nutted out reasonably rather than where people go nutty and make multiple allegations as a rant. If the matters are not definitely known and someone feels like expressing freely perhaps we can sign with /rant as we do with /sarc.

              The stuff we hear gets beyond belief sometimes and if we are going to go OTT it is better we indicate rather than come up with a list of questionable things as ianmac has extracted. I don’t know what is true about this guy, and if I can’t get a grasp of the facts here I might as well give up and go straight to The Civilian that makes such a good job of mashing the news with creative juices that it’s a feast.

            • SaveNZ 13.2.1.1.1.3
              30 November 2018 at 5:44 pm

              @ianmac, suggest you read what is in the media… and it’s based on his court appearances not made up by the Natz…

              Smuggler travelled twice to Czech Republic, but told court it was too dangerous to go home

              https://www.stuff.co.nz/auckland/108288945/Smuggler-travelled-twice-to-Czech-Republic-but-told-court-it-was-too-dangerous-to-go-home

        • SaveNZ 13.2.1.2
          30 November 2018 at 3:07 pm

          He’s wanted in Czech and NZ, aka multiple countries , I’m assuming he was wanted before they convicted him in NZ and apparently want to try him in Czech too. He fled on a fake passport. Well that sounds like multiple crimes to me and those are just the ones we know about. Apparently more dirt, like protection orders for example have been hinted at.

      • satty 13.2.2
        30 November 2018 at 11:07 am

        Seriously, Kim Dotcom “… never had a day in prison…”? He was/is well known in Germany under Kim Schmitz. Wikipedia is going to help you here:

        https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kim_Dotcom

        He arrived roughly around the same time as me in NZ and I was surprised after I had to go through my residency application, that someone with such a well-known legal history – easily available on the internet even – succeeded the “good character” test.

        • soddenleaf 13.2.2.1
          30 November 2018 at 1:35 pm

          Key let people buy into NZ.

          Q. If youre granted residency whilst in jail are you really saying that you have the liberty of NZ while in jail. How can he argue he has lost anythingwhen the minister changes his mind? Judge should throw out any case.
          Q. if he’s from the eu while can he claim he’d be harmed in Czech?
          Q. has he done good? is he a political activist? no…

          Exactly when did he get here coz is English suss.

        • SaveNZ 13.2.2.2
          30 November 2018 at 2:59 pm

          @satty,
          Suspended sentence and teenager are the salient words.

          Most of these teenage hackers are a help to society showing up security flaws before people who want to do serious harm actually do so, ahem like the alleged Russians who hacked into the US elections or people who hack into NSA and show how insecure the info is!

          Do you want to put this teenager in prison 2???

          11-year-old hacks replica of Florida state website, changes election results
          https://www.usatoday.com/story/tech/nation-now/2018/08/13/11-year-old-hacks-replica-florida-election-site-changes-results/975121002/

      • patricia bremner 13.2.3
        30 November 2018 at 1:48 pm

        Yes I agree. Dotcom should not be compared with Sroubek who has been well treated, Dotcom villified.

        • SaveNZ 13.2.3.1
          30 November 2018 at 5:39 pm

          Maybe Dotcom considered too highly skilled and smart and entrepreneurial , our prized immigrant by policy seems to be a cafe worker, farm hand, aged care worker or SME drug importers as people our government and immigration department feels comfortable with.

          Our government is spending a fortune trying to get rid of someone who can make hundreds of millions again and again with IT, while fighting and granting residency to a drug importer?

          Well I know which one, I would think could be less of a burden and create wealth in NZ and one who will destroy wealth by helping addicting people to drugs.

          Something is wrong here.

    • Observer Tokoroa 13.3
      30 November 2018 at 11:26 am

      Hi Dennis Frank

      I was puzzled by your friend Brigette Morten. She does not seem to have a grasp of english language. Try this for clarity Dennis :

      “Mr Lees-Galloway will not be able to provide regain the public’s confidence in judgement on immigration cases.” What exactly does that sentence mean Dennis ?

      Neither did she point out to us why the previous Minister of Immigration (National) appeared not to have handed out well researched criteria in the Karel Sroubek case. Namely the case for residency / citizenship in New Zealand. Rememember too, that Sroubek also uses an Alias.

      The National Party are notoriously sloppy in all aspects of their administration. Even to the extent of providing Chinese friends support in serious domestic crime.

      I seriously doubt that the previous Minister of Immigration or his lackadaisical staff gave a damn about anything. Consider the horrible crisis in excessive immigration and lack of housing and infrastructure.

      All of which was publicly and profoundly denied by Paula Bennett and Billy English when they came to power. He being the Pm – her being his little Deputy. What a mess and a muddle Dennis. Their stupidity will take years to fix.

      • Dennis Frank 13.3.1
        30 November 2018 at 1:01 pm

        Not my friend. She’s a pr consultant. I presume RNZ published her appraisal because half their listeners are equally conservative as half the country. I agree re lack of proof-reading & editing from her & RNZ. I see that stuff all the time online nowadays. It’s like nobody has the time or inclination to get it right anymore. I also agree re National’s performance in office. In that respect, I disagree with Labour’s perennial attempt to out-perform them in their race to the bottom.

    • Chris T 13.4
      30 November 2018 at 11:59 am

      It is easy

      You just have to “read between the lines” apparently

      Well that is what the leader of NZ’s most “open and transparent govt ever” said

      • Fireblade 13.4.1
        30 November 2018 at 3:38 pm

        It’s obvious that you don’t understand the meaning of the idiom “read between the lines” and why it is used.

        Read between the lines means – look for or discover a meaning that is implied rather than explicitly stated.

        The idiom is often used when it’s not possible to provide comprehensive details, due to confidentiality, prejudicial or legal requirements and/or obligations.

        • Chris T 13.4.1.1
          30 November 2018 at 3:56 pm

          Then why say read between the lines and not, I can’t talk about it?

          • Fireblade 13.4.1.1.1
            30 November 2018 at 4:44 pm

            Semantics.

            • Chris T 13.4.1.1.1.1
              30 November 2018 at 5:14 pm

              Would be semantics if there was actually any really really amazingly secret reasons to make such a stupid decision in what she was talking about.

              In the end there wasn’t even anything that required confidentiality

  14. ianmac 14
    30 November 2018 at 10:10 am

    Yep Dennis. Note that puzzled Brigitte was “Brigitte Morten is a senior consultant for Silvereye. Prior to that she was a senior ministerial adviser to the Minister of Education in the previous National-led government, and an adviser and campaign director for Australia’s Liberal Party.”
    So should we believe that she is just spinning National’s line? Heck yes. Credible? Nah.

    • Dennis Frank 14.1
      30 November 2018 at 10:20 am

      Yes, fair enough Ian. But her spin wouldn’t get much traction in public opinion without Labour’s failure to provide the public with relevant info & accountability.

      • ianmac 14.1.1
        30 November 2018 at 10:25 am

        True Dennis, but I gather there are some details that the Minister is not yet able to publish because of the Appeal coming up in a few years time. Hard to know how hard to push back against the mighty Negative Opposition Machine.

        • Dennis Frank 14.1.1.1
          30 November 2018 at 11:12 am

          Oh, okay. Yes, rumours will flourish as long as the system ensures that the public cannot be informed. If that’s why Labour aren’t forthcoming, understandable.

        • Puckish Rogue 14.1.1.2
          30 November 2018 at 12:49 pm

          Why is it so hard just to say that ILG made a mistake and made the PM look gullible (y’know read between the lines and all) when she has already said that he’d made a mistake

          Is the PM wrong?

          https://www.stuff.co.nz/national/politics/108976779/prime-minister-jacinda-ardern-says-immigration-minister-iain-leesgalloway-staying-put

          In answers to questions in Parliament today, Winston Peters, answering on behalf of the Prime Minister, said Iain Lees-Galloway was ‘setting out, having made only one mistake in a year, to fix it up’.”

          • Dennis Frank 14.1.1.2.1
            30 November 2018 at 1:09 pm

            Well it’s definitely interesting that he conceded the point. Unwise for a lawyer to jump straight to verdict and ignore due process, huh?!

            “She put it down to process and said it was now about getting the system right for future decisions.” But she failed to specify how the process was mishandled, or who got it wrong. Stop being contemptuous of the public, Jacinda! Not a good look.

          • ianmac 14.1.1.2.2
            30 November 2018 at 1:55 pm

            True. Maybe Iain might have made a better decision but the mountain created by the Opposition has exaggerated the significance for cynical political advantages. I don’t really support the Czech but hate the hypocritical witch hunt.
            The guy is in prison until about 2022 so in the interim no special differences can be achieved. An appeal was going to happen anyway.

            No extra costs except to the credibility of Opposition

    • Fireblade 14.2
      30 November 2018 at 1:48 pm

      Akshully, at the end of the day…

      The case was reviewed, a decision has been made, no one is resigning.

      Look, another car, woof woof.

  15. Jum 15
    30 November 2018 at 10:38 am

    https://monopoly.hasbro.com/en-us/product/monopoly-game-cheaters-edition:020C27CB-55DA-442A-B73B-B5C3CED8FCDA

    Monopoly has morphed for Xmas. You are now encouraged to cheat to get all the money and all the property. Says it all about New Zealand in the 21stC.

    I’d love to know where it is sold in large numbers and how many over the Xmas period
    and whether it matches my expectations?

    • Draco T Bastard 15.1
      30 November 2018 at 2:39 pm

      It is a pity that no one remembers why Monopoly was created. It really does drive the lesson home quite well.

      • Jum 15.1.1
        30 November 2018 at 6:57 pm

        Thanks for reminding me, I think…

        ‘Elizabeth Magie based the game on the economic principles of Georgism, a system proposed by Henry George, with the object of demonstrating how rents enrich property owners and impoverish tenants.’

        I wished I’d never checked it out on Wiki. Not only am I now personally financially responsible for keeping Wiki on track, but I discovered that even a game attracts greed in real life.

      • Tricledrown 15.1.2
        1 December 2018 at 1:42 pm

        Unfortunately it’s the only game in town other wise you go bankrupt.
        Life is like a sports game play by the rules push the rules to the limit sure but if you break the rules you loose.

        • J 15.1.2.1
          1 December 2018 at 6:29 pm

          That does it! I’m going back to playing tiddlywinks. In my tiddlywinks world everyone is a winner.

          PS -great name Tricledrown.

  16. DJ Ward 16
    30 November 2018 at 1:26 pm

    Great news. It sounds like the Mueller probe has finally got the leader. A prosecution has entered the system.

    Mueller for prosecutorial misconduct, for attempting to force a witness to lie with a threat of prosecution. Prison time LOL.

    • joe90 16.1
      30 November 2018 at 1:32 pm

      You’ve been watching Faux News, haven’t you?

    • Tricledrown 16.2
      1 December 2018 at 1:56 pm

      DJ Ward Power less perverts with erectile dysfunction and inability to connect with women targeted by Cambridge analytical to be potential Trump supporters or is that impotential!

      • DJ Ward 16.2.1
        1 December 2018 at 2:43 pm

        I have no idea what your talking about. Have they purchased blue pill data searches from Google?

        I’m wondering why you think a person who can’t get an erection is automatically a Trump Supporter. You will get statistical bias from men fleeing the left due to Radical Feminism, but I thought medical conditions like this were indiscriminate.

        I’m not supprised young and old men can’t connect with women. After decades of denigration, discriminatory persecution, and institutionalised cultural bias, generational observation, that males are a bit confused about getting erections let alone how to get permission. “Don’t do it” goes the subconscious.

  17. joe90 17
    30 November 2018 at 1:30 pm

    The idiot was standing on a street corner bellowing into a megaphone complaining about how she didn’t have freedom of speech and vowing to stay there until she had her Twitter account restored.

    But she got cold, was busting for a pee, and left without her account being restored.

    omfg, Laura Loomer literally handcuffed herself to the front door of Twitter (HQ) & she's wearing a Star of David & trying to claim she was banned from Twitter (the platform) b/c she's Jewish, not b/c she spews violent Islamophobia.And she's defending anti-Semite Gavin McInnes. pic.twitter.com/Iyw0aQaxME— Caroline Orr (@RVAwonk) November 29, 2018

    lol police inform Laura Loomer that Twitter isn't pressing charges and she can stay chained to their door as long as she wants— Joe Perticone (@JoePerticone) November 29, 2018

  18. soddenleaf 18
    30 November 2018 at 1:41 pm

    three parties in coalition, so they pragmatically work around their conflicting ideologies. so imagine to my surprise Moro describes Nats as being less ideologicall, is he saying tgeir brain dead decisions are empty headed, like their neolib tax principle of uniformity arent based in a structured fiscal idealism, or is he ignorant of tgeir pure faith ideology of markets. Is Moro a moron or a protector of pure ideological party nasty nats?

    • Chris T 18.1
      30 November 2018 at 2:18 pm

      One person’s pragmatic is another’s bowing to Winston’s demands every 2 minutes

      • soddenleaf 18.1.1
        6 December 2018 at 11:41 am

        National is the most socialist party, well, after Act that is. socialism for the few.

        • J 18.1.1.1
          6 December 2018 at 2:26 pm

          Yes Soddenleaf, and guess what?

          They’ve even got an associated union!

          It’s called The International Democrat Union – john key is or was chair of one of the worst neo groups ever, unless you consider the bilderbirgers, their whole agenda based around destroying anything good globally. They are described as centre right – a lie.

          The only socialism they do is socialising private expense and privatising public assets.

          It also reminds me of: Nationalsozialistische Deutsche Arbeiterpartei, which uses a good word – socialist – to remove rights, or they change a good symbol to an evil one – The word “swastika” is derived from the Sanskrit “su” meaning “well” and “asti” meaning “being.”

          national used to mean around the country. It has a less savoury meaning now.

  19. Exkiwiforces 19
    30 November 2018 at 2:24 pm

    I’ve just received my latest copy of the “The New Zealand Railway Observer” and I notice this in editorial.

    KiwiRail is looking at replacing the DX and sub-classes and representatives from two North America locomotive manufacturers have visited the South Island, studying operating conditions. It appears the 2016 decision of having a standardised fleet of DL locomotives from China is no longer the case especially given the issues with Chinese built locomotives since 2016.

    It also says if the current EF locomotives are maintain with an optimum level of maintenance they can still out perform the new Chinese built DL’s.

    A nice wee article on the geotechnical investigations on the Mardsen Point branch on pg 213 and a photo of the Auckland City Rail Link tunnel under Albert St on pg214.

    • veutoviper 19.1
      30 November 2018 at 2:33 pm

      Thanks for that interesting little bit of information. I must say that locomotives etc are outside my area of interest/expertise but I am not surprised if the DLs are going to be replaced.

      I had never heard of “The New Zealand Railway Observer” so Googled it. For any one else in the same position, here is a link to their website with info about their publications etc. I enjoyed looking at the site.

      http://railsoc.org.nz/

      • Exkiwiforces 19.1.1
        30 November 2018 at 2:57 pm

        Well it’s look like to me that the DL’s from China won’t setting foot on the South Island rail network anytime soon from the looks of it and if they KiwiRail does go down the road of having two classes of mainline/ branchline Diesel Locomotives, does that mean Hillside Workshops reopens in the near future as I can’t see them building a new Railway Workshop CHCH?

        There was also an interesting article on the Development and Change on the Wellington Suburban Network from 2016 to the present as well.

        • Jum 19.1.1.1
          6 December 2018 at 5:53 pm

          ‘ does that mean Hillside Workshops reopens in the near future’

          I hope so. This is all about a change returing to the balance of the 3 legged stool. Workers, Government, Employers. We need some grunt back in NZ to fight the corruption, to fight the greed.

          • Exkiwiforces 19.1.1.1.1
            6 December 2018 at 6:28 pm

            Yes, I hope so as well and I hope this current Government remains in office for at least 3 terms with some medium to long term plans. Unlike the “No Mates Party” who had a very short view on a lot things that involve them and theirs lining their pockets to make a quick buck at the expense of everyone else while bullshiting to the average voter at the same time.

  20. Fireblade 20
    30 November 2018 at 2:29 pm

    This will help nearly 600,000 New Zealanders.

    Visiting the doctor is set to get cheaper from this weekend.

    https://www.stuff.co.nz/national/politics/108994004/free-gp-visits-for-13-yearolds-and-cheaper-doctor-visits-for-community-service-card-holders

    • Sabine 20.1
      1 December 2018 at 6:45 pm

      that plus the reduced cost for people on a benefit can only be good for the country.

      Prevention is the best medication.

  21. Dennis Frank 21
    30 November 2018 at 3:12 pm

    Brexit update: “The number of Conservative MPs against the deal currently floats at around 93, according to the latest BBC tally. This only includes those who have explicitly stated they don’t support it. Total opposition, including Tory MPs who have yet to publicly declare their position, is said to be well over 100.”
    https://www.bbc.com/news/uk-politics-46386172

    “There are 315 Tory MPs in Parliament – not counting two who are currently suspended – and they have splintered off into a bewildering array of factions over Brexit.” Georgia Roberts, BBC analyst, identifies that the Tories have split into nine tribes, and provides a description of each. Here’s a summary:

    1. Ardent Brexiteers: “They are only a handful in number, but given Mrs May’s increasingly slim parliamentary majority – with the DUP also opposed to her deal – this troublesome tribe could prove numerous enough to sink her deal.”

    2. ‘No Dealers’/WTO terms: “These Conservatives argue that a no-deal Brexit – where the UK would leave the EU on WTO trading terms – is better than the deal Mrs May has put on the table and the only option left in the face of what they view as an inevitable defeat in parliament… despite this small group of advocates, a no-deal Brexit is not likely to get a majority of MPs in Parliament behind it.”

    3. ‘Advanced FTA’/’Super Canada’: “Vocally-supported by the likes of Boris Johnson and former Brexit Secretary David Davis, who both resigned in July over Mrs May’s Chequers blueprint, this group of mostly European Research Group members have been arguing for a Canada-style free trade agreement”

    4. ‘Norway Plus’/European Free Trade Area (EFTA): “Conservatives such as George Freeman are claiming this proposal enjoys cross-party support and is “the only sensible way to deliver the EU referendum result”. Indeed, it’s rumoured some cabinet ministers are willing to get on board with this option if the draft agreement falls in the Commons.”

    5. Prime minister’s deal: “The Conservatives who openly support the prime minister’s deal are mainly made up of loyal government ministers. The trouble is, there currently still aren’t enough of them to get the prime minister’s deal through Parliament”.

    6. Renegotiated deal: “The bulk of this tribe are made up of MPs who have serious concerns about the backstop proposals for Northern Ireland.”

    7. Pragmatists: “These are the Conservatives who despite their distaste for the deal, are supporting it through gritted teeth.”

    8. Remainers: “Many privately support another referendum, but have yet to join the handful of Tory MPs who openly back the People’s Vote campaign… If the prime minister’s deal is rejected, a large group of MPs currently keeping quiet could come out to publicly support another referendum, aligning themselves with many Labour MPs.”

    9. People’s Vote: “This option is being sold as the only way to solve the current impasse in Parliament… The People’s Vote campaign’s march in Westminster recently attracted hundreds of thousands of supporters.”

    This ongoing display of Tory factionalism could even be a sign that diversity trending towards multiculturalism is gradually supplanting obedience as a cultural determinant of conservative politics in the UK.

    • DJ Ward 21.2
      30 November 2018 at 3:40 pm

      1 Irrelevant, it was voted for by the public.
      2 Should have been the first option, you can’t negotiate with control freaks.
      3 A possibility but see 2
      4 A possibility but see 2
      5 Its a no Brexit May doing no Brexit.
      6 Result of 5
      7 Tow the May Party line, no Brexit.
      8 The anti democracy club.
      9 The I didn’t like the result, try agian, see 8.

    • Tricledrown 21.3
      1 December 2018 at 2:09 pm

      If the UK is stupid enough to continue down this path of piss poor deal May hasn’t managed to put together or the no deal Norwegian option the UK’s economy will slide further into koas, Putin will have achieved his goal of weakening both the UK and Europe. But already the UK financial sector has been damaged “£800 billion pounds of financial business set to go to Frankfurt.
      May’s backers will abandon her its just when is that going to happen.

    • greywarshark 22.1
      30 November 2018 at 4:01 pm

      I liked the security dog. And where there is gold [water] mining waiting to be
      found and tapped, who can resist? Is there an iron-bound agreement that the water will not be made available to dairy farmers and diary farmers (in case the bounders try to get their way because of a common mispelling.)?

      • DJ Ward 22.1.1
        30 November 2018 at 4:14 pm

        You could have a situation that the urban areas are fully supplied with water and there is extra. The extra could be sold to Cow Farmers so people in urban areas get cheaper water. The Cow Farmer paying a proper premium above operating and financing costs. If it’s a bad year and only the urban areas can be supplied, the Cow Farmers get no water from the project.

        Will grape growers be OK then? Highly efficient in providing food for the needy, and socially aceptable alcoholism.

        What about a new rice farm? Good for methane production.

    • DJ Ward 22.2
      30 November 2018 at 4:02 pm

      Amazing how people think.
      The democracy wining over greed comment.

      The democratic process to make a decision.
      Allowing the voice of the opposed to be heard.
      The decision makers voted in to decide the outcome.
      The debate and vote on a decision based on the arguments.

      Democracy involves at least half of people not having there view supported.

      You could say that even though the opposers lost, democracy did win over greed, as democracy would reject a purely greed based project like this. The public good factor must have been high.

  23. newsense 23
    30 November 2018 at 3:39 pm

    Why are we seeing so much focus on the immigration case of the ex- of a National Party guy?

    Given the speed of decisions and the ability to access information I’m sure there is a lot of advocacy that could be done to make our system better. Why are they removing counters and making people whose first language is in all likelihood not English deal with an irritating phone system?

    More gotcha, less focus on making stuff actually work.

  24. Morrissey 24
    30 November 2018 at 4:35 pm

    In the space of a few minutes Jim Mora quoted Kiwiblog, followed by Bob “Whacker” McCoskrie’s Family Fist. He seemed to pretend they were serious organizations.
    The Panel, RNZ National, Friday 30 November 2018
    Jim Mora, Andrew Clay, Ali Jones, Ali Ventura

    Horrified, I sent him the following hurry-up:

    Kiwiblog?!!?? Bob McCoskrie?!! WTF?

    Dear Jim,

    You first quoted the extreme right wing Kiwiblog, then in the very next breath you quoted the even more extreme Bob McCoskrie. Ali Jones reacted the way that any sensible listener would have: “What a load of RUBBISH!”

    What’s next? Are you going to approvingly quote the complacent right wing New York Times opinionist David Brooks, or some mad article from the Daily Telegraph, or the so-called “Sensible Sentencing Trust”, as you so often do?

    Have you thought of quoting someone who actually writes in a thoughtful and balanced manner? Gordon Campbell perhaps?

    You have a duty, surely, to assemble a credible and serious hour of broadcasting. Kiwiblog and Family First are anything but credible and serious.

    Yours in concern at the standard of your program,

    Morrissey Breen
    Northcote Point

    • Chris 24.1
      30 November 2018 at 5:50 pm

      We shouldn’t expect too much from our Jimbo – he’s married to Mary Lambie ffs.

    • Gabby 24.2
      30 November 2018 at 5:51 pm

      I’m sure jimmoara’s public apology for not consulting you is being penned as we read, morsissey, quite possibly by you.

      • Morrissey 24.2.1
        1 December 2018 at 12:28 pm

        In fact, Baggers, the great man deigned to send this writer, i.e., moi, the following response:

        ThePanel
        Nov 30, 2018, 5:10 PM

        I also quoted The Standard yesterday, Morrissey, I regularly quote the NYT, the Guardian, the Atlantic. Jim

    • DJ Ward 24.3
      30 November 2018 at 6:05 pm

      I don’t think the kiwiblog platform is extreme right wing or the content of its posts. The comments within kiwiblog does involve extreme points of view. The anti Semites, hmmm. Racists, warmongers, climate deniers, religous zealots etc.

      DPF is often accused of being a Lefty. Think about that Morrisey.

      Since your complaint didn’t express broadcasting rules being broken I can guess what happened to it.

      • Sacha 24.3.1
        30 November 2018 at 6:15 pm

        “DPF is often accused of being a Lefty”

        By a few extreme libertarian nutjobs, maybe, but never “often”.

        • DJ Ward 24.3.1.1
          30 November 2018 at 7:16 pm

          On some of the posts it is often, some he is congratulated often.

          Calling him extreme right wing was wrong. If you do call a person extreme right wing, who is, how is a person supposed to differentiate the difference. If Morrisey picked out comments and argued that it was wrong to put that point of view forward then his email would have had substance.

          Morrisey put forward his comment but most are aware of Morriseys dislike of Bob over a certain issue, and kiwiblog because he is wrongly nearly always automatically downvoted.

          It could be Jim Mora has some right wing points of view, or was highlighting the right wing point of view. Plenty of people wish to hear those views, not just the point of view Morrisey holds.

          If the media only presented my point of view for example, it would be a North Korean style media dictatorship. The same applies to the substance of Morriseys email and the result if it was complied with.

          You are only permitted to talk about views I agree with!

          • Sacha 24.3.1.1.1
            1 December 2018 at 1:46 pm

            “On some of the posts it is often, some he is congratulated often.”

            So it might be more fitting for you to say that DPF is *sometimes* accused of being a lefty. I’d say ‘seldom’, but you do you.

            • te reo putake 24.3.1.1.1.1
              1 December 2018 at 1:59 pm

              I believe it’s also an in joke on the right. As I recall, Cameron Slater used to call DPF a lefty back when Whaleoil and Kiwiblog were double teaming on dirty politics. (Whaleoil would post the attacks, then Kiwiblog would talk about the attacks Whaleoil posted. Nudge, nudge, wink wink.)

              • Morrissey …
                1 December 2018 at 2:06 pm

                Indeed, te reo. That’s some mightily impressive parsing of those louts and their ridiculous modus operandi.

            • DJ Ward 24.3.1.1.1.2
              1 December 2018 at 3:04 pm

              The bias you describe is a “righty”. Which was my point. Might have got my explanation for my view of DPF wrong but I don’t prescribe to the term extreme right wing for DPF. Individual issues maybe but he can have some balance to his thinking at times.

              @ Te reo putake
              Just as the left can tear itself apart, so can the right. Whale oil is despised by many on the right especially on DPF’s site. It’s the enemy of my enemy is my freind thing. There may be cooperation but there’s certainly some 2 camp dynamics.

      • Morrissey 24.3.2
        1 December 2018 at 12:43 pm

        You must be blind as well as tonedeaf.

  25. greywarshark 25
    30 November 2018 at 5:36 pm

    It looks to me that keeping off twitter would be a good thing for a New Years Resolution if there isn’t a better plan already.

    • Chris 25.1
      30 November 2018 at 5:47 pm

      Perhaps a better plan might be tackling climate change, sorting out or welfare system, making human rights meaningful and allowing free tertiary education for all? There might even be other better plans.

  26. greywarshark 26
    30 November 2018 at 5:50 pm

    Newspapers you’ve got to love to hate them, they are so worthy.
    Front page of Nelson Mail –
    A complete page on a lost cat. ‘The great moggy mix-up.’
    Top headers.
    Comedian Dai Henwood. Booze ban no joke. Handmaids sequel: Modern America inspires author (to what?)
    Bottom advertisement –
    1 Bedroom Apartments at Stillwater Gardens Retirement Village

    (They must have a stagnant duckpond there that you can gaze at while you rock in your old rocking chair, while supplied with health pills, possibly only 12 a day.)/sarc (Quite possible, some people are on horrendous doses.)

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