Open mike 31/05/2020

145 comments on “Open mike 31/05/2020 ”

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1. Dennis Frank 1

   31 May 2020 at 9:00 am

   The saga of Louisa Wall vs the Labour stalinist faction: "After nine years as the MP, Ms Wall has thrown in the towel over what's been called a "vicious" in-house fight for her seat." https://www.tvnz.co.nz/one-news/new-zealand/louisa-wall-has-list-seat-deal-see-her-return-parliament-despite-bowing-labour-s-manurewa-candidate-race

   "It's understood there've been moves against the MP at a national and local level, with two other nominations. Ms Wall missed out on promotion when Labour came into power despite securing gay marriage, its only big win in opposition".

   "1 NEWS understands a deal has been signed off, moving her higher up the party list, ensuring her return to parliament. Tonight, Labour announced Arena Williams has been selected as the party's candidate for Manurewa. The lawyer and mum-of-two is of Te Aitanga-a-Mahaki, Tūhoe and Ngai Tahu descent." And a lawyer.

   Watching the story One News ran last night, I was intrigued to see Matt McCarten appear twice – carefully avoiding any reference to stalinism. Well done, stealth is essential. Dame Marilyn Waring: "She'd better be high enough on the list!"

   I imagined the spectre of an elderly sisterhood marching against the Labour Party, banners waving, during the election campaign, may have flickered briefly in the tiny wee minds of the stalinists, before they reassured themselves that no, that couldn't happen.

   Linda Clark this morning on RNZ, talking with Richard Harman and Jim Mora: "Helen Clark kept files on all sorts of people." Well, obviously. Stalinism 1.01 😆
   • Barfly 1.1

     31 May 2020 at 10:11 am

     Stalinism

     [ stah-luh-niz-uh m ]SHOW IPA

     noun

     the principles of communism associated with Joseph Stalin, characterized especially by the extreme suppression of dissident political or ideological views, the concentration of power in one person, and an aggressive international policy.

     Yeah right /cue Tui advert
     • greywarshark 1.1.1

       31 May 2020 at 11:08 am

       But doesn't Wall herself go to the extremes at times? She could be being hoist on her own petard!
       • phantom snowflake 1.1.1.1

         31 May 2020 at 11:32 am

         Louisa Wall has been prominent in her support for marriage equality and transgender rights. Are those the "extremes" to which you refer?? Do tell…
   • Ad 1.2

     31 May 2020 at 10:12 am

     The thing the Labour government needs is support for David Parker who is overworked and one of the few competent Ministers they have, and also for Andrew Little who has been pretty ineffectual in the role of Justice, Courts, and Treaty of Waitangi stuff.

     The Labour Party needs more lawyers. Mostly that's because law is the core business of Parliament.

     Arena Williams brings Auckland networks that the Labour party otherwise doesn't have.

     You'll also notice Kris Fa'afoi going onto the list in Mana. That's a majority of over 10,000.

     The replacement there is Barbara Edmonds. Barbara is a bona fide legal tax specialist. It's pretty apparent that Deborah Russell hasn't made much policy headway in tax reform at all, so Labour definitely needs help in that department.

     So no, it's not a Leninist conspiracy. It's just targeted renewal, in safe seats, to get more of what the Labour Party needs in parliament.

     You should expect to see more renewal movement in the next 2 months.
     • weka 1.2.1

       31 May 2020 at 10:41 am

       that makes more sense. Doesn't explain why there was conflict, but does show up the TVNZ piece as useless.
     • Craig H 1.2.2

       31 May 2020 at 10:46 am

       Dr Webb is a pretty high profile lawyer, as are Kiri Allan and Willow-Jean Prime, not to mention the Deputy PM. Assuming all return in 2020, Labour will be very well served. Getting more talent through is very important, but it's not like the current caucus is bereft.

       Also, I think Little has been excellent when NZ First has let him.
     • Anne 1.2.3

       31 May 2020 at 11:02 am

       I accept that premise Ad but wonder if it can't be achieved in a less divisive way. Deborah Russell has been finding her feet this term in government and suspect she's just coming into her own now. Helen Clark had a low profile during her first term in parliament too.

       I think it was Keith Holyoake who used to warn incoming newbies to "hold their noses during their first term and learn how parliament operates before jumping into the fray" – words to that effect anyway. Wise advice given the many complexities of parliamentary life.

       I'm curious about the underlying reasons for the Louisa Wall affair. On the surface it smacks of a clash between ideological/religious conservatism and a whiff of identity politics in the shape of a strong Maori woman MP who also happens to be gay.

       It is said that Louisa does not suffer fools gladly. Helen Clark didn't either but she learnt to manage her 'affliction' as I can personally attest to… when once many years ago I decided to be too clever by half at a local meeting. She put me in my place neatly and without rancour. A lesson well learnt that I never repeated. 😀
       • Anne 1.2.3.1

         31 May 2020 at 11:23 am

         Oops… Holyoake's comment was "breathe through your noses".

         Okay. Some might say the former is more appropriate but………
       • Ad 1.2.3.2

         31 May 2020 at 11:38 am

         Honestly this is the best time to cut out the low performers.

         At 55%+ polling Labour in parliament is about to be flooded with a whole phalanx of new MPs.

         With that volume of intake you want to ensure there aren't any weak ones; any low performers who aren't achieving much.

         And anyone except Labour Ministerial staff would accept that most of the current crop aren't that good. Only insiders would recognise a Labour Minister beyond the top five.

         This is a once-in-a-generation opportunity to not only invigorate the Labour Party – it's an opportunity to get the talent pipeline so good that National is waiting until 2029 before it even gets a sniff.

         We are going to tilt this country for good.
       • Sacha 1.2.3.3

         31 May 2020 at 11:42 am

         On the surface it smacks of a clash between ideological/religious conservatism and a whiff of identity politics in the shape of a strong Maori woman MP who also happens to be gay.

         'On the surface' from what little has come out of the Thorndon bubble over recent years it seems to have far more to do with being a team player than which social groupings the person may belong to. Low cabinet ranking also a function of that despite obvious smartness and ability to reach across parties when progressing that signature achievement.
       • roblogic 1.2.3.4

         31 May 2020 at 10:46 pm

         My (third hand) understanding is that she was pushing some identity politics stuff too hard and insulting people simply for holding a different opinion.
         • Anne 1.2.3.4.1

           31 May 2020 at 11:03 pm

           That is what I suspected. It's not the first time it has happened in the Labour Party either.

           Back in the 1970s and early 1980s there was a small group of women who were overly aggressive with their views. [The meme 'identity politics' was not part of the vocabulary then.] Instead of attracting other women to the cause they actually turned quite a few of them off. I was one of them.

           You don't win battles by forcing your views on to other people. You gently persuade them over time.
     • greywarshark 1.2.4

       31 May 2020 at 11:17 am

       Edit
       The Labour Party needs more pragmatic idealists. Lawyers per se, but they do not necessarily have the sense to go with driving good laws. They normally just work within them. Workers from all levels of society who are thoughtful and practical and care about people and our small business that binds the nation are needed.

       So a mix of politician types is needed, provided they can see beyond neolib to the field beyond. They would go to where the grass is actually greener and there is enough for all who are keen enough to walk over and chew their cuds, and take time to talk about getting opportunities and setting limits and bringing the people to education on how we need to live in the 21st century and find value in ourselves and satisfaction as we do work within a thoughtful, kind, sustainable society.

       Could Labour manage this? Might take them out of their well-paid comfort zone.
     • bill 1.2.5

       31 May 2020 at 12:27 pm

       lol – the thing about lawyers and politics is principles. They don't have any. And no – that's not a gratuitous swipe. Many a lawyer will punt for the legal path over the unlawful path, even where the unlawful path is principled and the legal one an arse that might leave you with an uneasy conscience that needs salved to escape or deny a world of regret. Just ask Andrew Little.
       • Ad 1.2.5.1

         31 May 2020 at 2:02 pm

         The lawyers that have been chosen for these two seats are lawyers of strong principle. You need to look at their work to demonstrate how they apply principle within policy to decisionmaking frameworks.

         If you're making a swipe against Minister Little as a lawyer as well as Minister, for being unlawful, you need to back that up.
         • bill 1.2.5.1.1

           31 May 2020 at 2:11 pm

           A very good lawyer does not necessarily a good politician make, Ad. That's my point.

           If a lawyer is presented with a situation where they can be correct in law, they will tend to let that outweigh any principled actions that might contravene the law.

           Taking a legally correct route in relation to wildcat strikes over health and safety may or may not ring any bells for you.
           • Ad 1.2.5.1.1.1

             31 May 2020 at 3:12 pm

             Yes agree with that.
   • Psycho Milt 1.3

     31 May 2020 at 12:45 pm

     …Louisa Wall vs the Labour stalinist faction:

     I haven't seen any informed explanation of what's behind this dispute, but somehow you can confidently put it down to Wall being in conflict with a Stalinist faction within Labour. Is that based on some evidence you've seen and we haven't? Or is it just the Internet having no shortage of blowhards?
     • Dennis Frank 1.3.1

       31 May 2020 at 12:56 pm

       Or is it an observer deducing the theoretical possibility on the basis of the behavioural evidence cited? Gosh, so many questions, so little time to explore the answers.

       "Wall was a list MP before winning the seat after Labour veteran George Hawkins retired in 2011. She is best known for getting the marriage equality bill passed into law. She also chairs the health select committee and is a former Silver Fern and Black Fern."

       "She received high-profile support this week from Dame Marilyn Waring who, writing in the Herald, said Wall was a national and international figure with a major profile. "She is highly regarded by a large number of significant women leaders, by our nation's sporting community, by community activists and by the nation's LGBTIQ community."" https://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/news/article.cfm?c_id=1&objectid=12335909

       "Waring rejected reported comments that Wall was a "polarising" figure in the Labour caucus. "I was subject to the same criticisms," said the former National MP. "Time has a way of showing that critical thinkers on the inside improve a Government's performance, especially when there are weak opposition parties in Parliament." Labour president Claire Szabo will be running the selection meeting."

       So you will be dead keen to provide your own explanation of all this, eh? Go for it. Explain why Labour's president felt the necessity to travel to the local selection and take charge of their process. Then explain why stalinists never do total control (so that proves she ain't stalinist).
       • observer 1.3.1.1

         31 May 2020 at 1:07 pm

         Is that based on some evidence you've seen and we haven't?

         So that's a "No" then. Could have saved yourself a few paras.
         • Gabby 1.3.1.1.1

           31 May 2020 at 9:35 pm

           Why use a few well chosen words when you can bore for England?
       • Psycho Milt 1.3.1.2

         31 May 2020 at 1:12 pm

         Or is it an observer deducing the theoretical possibility on the basis of the behavioural evidence cited?

         No, it's clearly not that, as it was asserted as fact, not offered as a theoretical possibility. "Behavioural evidence" was also lacking.

         So you will be dead keen to provide your own explanation of all this, eh?

         Er, no, I won't. Not without some evidence to base an explanation on. That's my point.
       • Andre 1.3.1.3

         31 May 2020 at 1:13 pm

         Okay, I'll have a go at that. 3.2.1.2 at 11:42 am

         Did you give it an actual go and fail to select the text that's the quote and then click the button with the quote marks (it's centre right, between the smiley face and the Source button)? Or is it all just a bit too much of a new tricks/old dog situation?
         • Dennis Frank 1.3.1.3.1

           31 May 2020 at 1:46 pm

           Not ruling out the latter possibility totally, but I actually forgot. I'm doing concreting concurrently, so I come & scan comments in between stints of that.

           I did make the decision to change, and will enact that. Maybe not today tho. And to the other couple of commentors above, I call it as I see it. I did cite the evidence that made me see it that way.

           Are you trying to suggest that subjective impressions aren't valid in political commentary? Better have a go at Andre, then, whose technicolour impressions of Trump often colour the scenery here. But no, I bet you aren't serious or consistent in your judgments. Just doing knee-jerk stuff, brain disengaged.
           • Sacha 1.3.1.3.1.1

             31 May 2020 at 1:51 pm

             Best to own your subjective impressions as what they are rather than dress them up as 'evidence'. Nothing wrong with "I believe".
           • Andre 1.3.1.3.1.2

             31 May 2020 at 2:11 pm

             I'm trying to suggest the readability of what you contribute would be improved by making it clearer what content is yours and what is quoted from elsewhere. With improved readability there is likely to be improved understanding and engagement and less sniping snark.

             When it comes to the situation in Manurewa with Louisa Wall and the broader Labour party, I have no particular information or insight or experience that might make my reckons have any value. Nor have I any stake in the outcome. So on that topic, any comment I might make would be just random internet noise, which I don't really want to add to.
             • Dennis Frank …

               31 May 2020 at 2:45 pm

               Yeah, all good. Just to clarify to you & Sacha, owning personal impressions is a good point but evidence cited in support of a theory is something else again. It's a valuable political lesson when indicating a dark side. Just as comments here keep stressing how Trump's banalities indicate a dark side.

               History has shown us that the dark side of the left is more of a threat to the people than the dark side of the right. Last time we addressed this point I proved it by citing how all four of the greatest political mass-murderers in the 20th century originated in leftist political organisations. Those who fail to learn from history are condemned to repeat it.
               • Sacha …

                 31 May 2020 at 4:30 pm

                 You do not like the left. We get that. Sadly it means you reach for Stalin or Idi Amin at the slightest sign of unease. Perhaps you would be happier somewhere like Kiwibog?
                 • Dennis Frank …

                   31 May 2020 at 5:16 pm

                   At this point I usually remind folks that I share leftist values, ideals, aspirations. You may recall some of those instances. I'm motivated to help raise consciousness around the typical ways leftists defeat themselves. I believe doing so enhances the common good. If they were to figure it out by themselves, I wouldn't have to.

                   Re Kiwibog, the miasma produced by the political ecology there always seems too lame, toxic often, distasteful otherwise. Rightists ought to be able to do better but never seem to even try…
               • RedLogix …

                 31 May 2020 at 5:04 pm

                 Last time we addressed this point I proved it by citing how all four of the greatest political mass-murderers in the 20th century originated in leftist political organisations.

                 Indeed. How do you know when a political philosophy has gone too far?

                 It is a question of boundaries, and on this the right we understand that racial superiority and fascism put a player out of bounds. On the left it seems the more radical and disruptive the idea, the more virtuously it's treated; which makes the left very unlikeable at times.
                 • Dennis Frank …

                   31 May 2020 at 5:27 pm

                   Didn't quite follow that, can you try a rephrasing of the point. Trust seems to be the achilles heel in leftist political orgs (back-stabbing) but the chaos in National currently suggests it may be rife with factionalism too. In the USA the right seems to have become likewise riven with factions in recent years.

                   In the old days factions were identified via ideology. Not easy to do that nowadays. If political psychologists weren't useless an explanation deriving from depth psychology would be available.
                 • KJT …

                   31 May 2020 at 9:18 pm

                   Hitler. Leftish?
2. francesca 2

   31 May 2020 at 9:10 am

   Gadaffi saying he was going to "hunt terrorists house to house " prompted the UN no fly zone in Libya that culminated in the barbaric hunting and killing of Gadaffi "We came, we saw , he died" And the nation destroying chaos that is now Libya.That was Obama/Clinton

   Now we have Trump

   "US President Donald Trump on Saturday claimed that many Secret Service agents were "just waiting for action'' and ready to unleash "the most vicious dogs, and the most ominous weapons, I have ever seen"

   https://www.stuff.co.nz/world/americas/300024659/trump-threatens-to-set-vicious-dogs-on-george-floyd-protesters-at-white-house

   Time for the UN Security Council to be involved? Or the Responsibility to Protect (R2P) to be invoked?

   In a parallel universe Xi says "Trump must go "

   And promises arms and funding to freedom fighters in Minneapolis

   "I stand with the American people "says Putin
   • dv 2.1

     31 May 2020 at 9:14 am

     Ominous weapons????

     Is Trump going to nuke them????

     Or maybe twitter them!!!
     • Andre 2.1.1

       31 May 2020 at 9:20 am

       Maybe he's planning to get his Space Farce team onto it and deploy their new Super Duper Missile on them.

       https://www.businessinsider.com.au/trumps-super-fast-and-super-duper-missile-confusion-2020-5?r=US&IR=T
       • dv 2.1.1.1

         31 May 2020 at 9:38 am

         Nice Andre
         I like this quote from that article—

         "Trump is well known for serving up nonsensical word salads, and this was no exception,” Reif said."

         Or maybe the ominous weapon is Covid!!!
     • greywarshark 2.1.2

       31 May 2020 at 11:21 am

       Don't underestimate what Trump is building in receptive minds, and look at him as a sideshow obscuring the action behind the theatre curtain.
       • tc 2.1.2.1

         31 May 2020 at 1:31 pm

         Easy to forget this is the employed clown not the circus owners.
         • Sacha 2.1.2.1.1

           31 May 2020 at 1:36 pm

           People are so easily distracted by the big red hat nose.
3. Dennis Frank 3

   31 May 2020 at 9:52 am

   Four experts say now is the time to usher in systemic economic change.

   Leftist & rightist mainstreamers: no way! Over our dead bodies!

   Yeah, probably.

   One prominent policy blueprint with a deep time horizon is the European Commission’s European Green Deal, which offers several ways to support the communities and businesses most at risk from the current crisis.

   https://www.weforum.org/agenda/2020/03/a-green-reboot-after-the-pandemic/

   COVID-19 reflects a broader trend: more planetary crises are coming. If we muddle through each new crisis while maintaining the same economic model that got us here, future shocks will eventually exceed the capacity of governments, financial institutions, and corporate crisis managers to respond. Indeed, the “coronacrisis” has already done so.

   Stating the obvious doesn't work with mainstreamers. They know they've got the numbers to make denial and resistance effective.

   The Club of Rome issued a similar warning in its famous 1972 report, The Limits to Growth, and again in Beyond the Limits, a 1992 book by the lead author of that earlier report, Donella Meadows. As Meadows warned back then, humanity’s future will be defined not by a single emergency but by many separate yet related crises stemming from our failure to live sustainably. By using the Earth’s resources faster than they can be restored, and by releasing wastes and pollutants faster than they can be absorbed, we have long been setting ourselves up for disaster.

   Mainstreamers: Look, we've been rolling our eyes at this stuff for half a century. Who cares about future generations? Only the Greens, and they don't matter.

   Rather than simply reacting to disasters, we can use the science to design economies that will mitigate the threats of climate change, biodiversity loss, and pandemics. We must start investing in what matters, by laying the foundation for a green, circular economy that is anchored in nature-based solutions and geared toward the public good.

   Yeah, way to go. Ignore the political left & right. They're determined to remain clueless forever.
   • Ad 3.1

     31 May 2020 at 10:15 am

     4.9% / 5.1%

     That reboot better start looking attractive.
     • weka 3.1.1

       31 May 2020 at 10:47 am

       Labourites starting to get nervous 😉
       • Ad 3.1.1.1

         31 May 2020 at 11:40 am

         🙂 🙂 🙂
   • weka 3.2

     31 May 2020 at 10:48 am

     Dennis, I hope you don't mind but I reformatted your comment. I find how you format comments now makes it hard to read and understand what you are saying, so I wanted to see if separating out your words from the quotes made a difference.
     • Sacha 3.2.1

       31 May 2020 at 10:53 am

       Works way better for me, thanks.

       Dennis, there is a button with quote marks on the editor toolbar when you are assembling your comments. Please use it.
       • weka 3.2.1.1

         31 May 2020 at 11:37 am

         oh good. Made a big difference to me too.
       • Dennis Frank 3.2.1.2

         31 May 2020 at 11:42 am

         Okay, I'll have a go at that. Looks like it introduces more space around the quotes and I can see how it could seem more easy to read to some. I'm habituated to traditional denser text formatting & probably need to get over it.

         When I first started reading leftist writing it was the late 1960s. I couldn't believe how long their paragraphs were! Eyes glazing over before I got even half-way and I'd been reading constantly all my life so was adept and routinely scored above 95% in English exams. No wonder they never got traction with the masses…
         • Sacha 3.2.1.2.1

           31 May 2020 at 11:50 am

           Thank you. Comprehension on screen is lower than in print without extra spacing.
     • Dennis Frank 3.2.2

       31 May 2020 at 11:37 am

       That's interesting. No, I don't mind that alteration, and am sympathetic to the problem you encounter. My style recycles traditional print format, and dates from the '80s – I agree new tech requires communication styles to evolve. I will take this advice on board. Will see if I can adopt that new style.
       • weka 3.2.2.1

         31 May 2020 at 11:38 am

         Thanks Dennis. I found it much easier to get the nuance in what you were saying once I could easily separate the quotes from your own words.
         • weka 3.2.2.1.1

           31 May 2020 at 11:39 am

           I've started writing a post in response 🙂
   • bill 3.3

     31 May 2020 at 2:21 pm

     future shocks will eventually exceed the capacity of governments, financial institutions, and corporate crisis managers to respond.

     That's taken as a read. But what is their collective responsive capabilities when we're talking about the end of capitalism (which any non-growth economic model entails)?

     Corporations + government + financial institutions fighting for their existence as entities (ie, the people who benefit from their existence fighting) versus a largely dis-empowered populace in the path of those future shocks becoming increasingly distracted by just trying to stay alive …

     They hang on for the first few rounds, and the odds move in their favour….until climate wipes them out alongside the rest of us.
4. joe90 4

   31 May 2020 at 9:57 am

   Lotsa fuckery going on.

   https://twitter.com/JoyAnnReid/status/1266741059163389952

   https://threadreaderapp.com/thread/1266741059163389952.html

   https://twitter.com/Freeyourmindkid/status/1266598693647638528

   https://threadreaderapp.com/thread/1266598693647638528.html

   edit:
   https://twitter.com/whartonrigby/status/1266200742727016449
   • I Feel Love 4.1

     31 May 2020 at 10:18 am

     That footage of the guy in black wearing a gas mask calmly smashing windows was very chilling, night of broken crystal indeed.
   • millsy 4.2

     31 May 2020 at 11:22 am

     COINTELPRO.
     • joe90 4.2.1

       31 May 2020 at 11:25 am

       The boot fits.

       https://twitter.com/Cooperstreaming/status/1266734581538893826

       https://www.snopes.com/fact-check/trump-economy-crashing-quote/
   • joe90 4.3

     31 May 2020 at 12:32 pm

     https://twitter.com/AthenaCloud/status/1266732638372593665

     https://www.facebook.com/bobby.headbird/videos/10104359133179255/?d=n
5. mpledger 5

   31 May 2020 at 10:22 am

   How about starting the open mikes at a random time each day (maybe 8am pm 60mins) so that different people get to be the first poster?
   • Andre 5.1

     31 May 2020 at 10:28 am

     Nah, it's fine the way it is. I've programmed the autoscroll to kick in if there's a green avatar at the top.
     • I Feel Love 5.1.1

       31 May 2020 at 10:34 am

       +100 scroll
       • Dennis Frank 5.1.1.1

         31 May 2020 at 10:42 am

         Truth hurts. Best to avoid both. 😎
     • Bearded Git 5.1.2

       31 May 2020 at 10:49 am

       I just scroll past all posts by Dennis Frank …too long…usually irrelevant or a distraction from the real issues. Very close to trolling.
       • Dennis Frank 5.1.2.1

         31 May 2020 at 11:44 am

         No you don't. You often respond, and agree more than disagree. Be honest!
       • weka 5.1.2.2

         31 May 2020 at 2:18 pm

         I frequently disagree with Frank on things, but think gratitude is in order that we have people who will put up arguments whether we agree with them or not. Otherwise it's an echo chamber, and potentially a boring one.
         • Sacha 5.1.2.2.1

           31 May 2020 at 5:04 pm

           I disagree with Bob most of the time but I like how he has arguments plural, not just the same one over and over (to which a therapist might be a better answer). Worst kind of echo chamber.
           • The Al1en 5.1.2.2.1.1

             31 May 2020 at 5:13 pm

             That's you added to the 2034 killer zinger list 😆
   • Anne 5.2

     31 May 2020 at 11:39 am

     We had "Daily Review" which appeared around 5:30 pm Mon. to Fri., but it was canned at the start of Lockdown and hasn't reappeared.
     • ScottGN 5.2.1

       31 May 2020 at 11:54 am

       Just seems to be you and me Anne, mourning the demise of Daily Review!
       • Dennis Frank 5.2.1.1

         31 May 2020 at 12:47 pm

         Me too, on a functional relevance basis. Often significant stuff emerges during the course of the day. Working commentators can't be expected to comment until after the evening meal.

         The other functional point is that threads on open mike meander and new stuff gets lost to the attention of many readers once there's an abundance. Issues can therefore get a fresh start on the later platform.
       • WeTheBleeple 5.2.1.2

         31 May 2020 at 1:41 pm

         I liked the review too even if I don't participate in it.
       • Anne 5.2.1.3

         31 May 2020 at 1:49 pm

         No, a few more people have commented on its demise.

         What I liked about it is the opportunity to refresh the discussions at the end of the day or comment on a development that has come out of maybe the 6pm news. Add to that some of us don't always get the time to indulge at length during the day. Even retirees have other things to do.
       • weka 5.2.1.4

         31 May 2020 at 2:11 pm

         I miss Daily Review too.
         • Sacha 5.2.1.4.1

           31 May 2020 at 4:37 pm

           How about a rule that if you have commented on Open Mike after noon you are not allowed to bless Daily Review with your reckons? Might encourage fresh voices.
         • patricia 5.2.1.4.2

           31 May 2020 at 7:55 pm

           Same here. Bring back Daily Review please.
           • roblogic 5.2.1.4.2.1

             31 May 2020 at 10:54 pm

             Meh. Daily Review just diluted threads and repeated stuff that was already covered in Open Mike. But maybe a Night Owls post would be good, from 8 pm
             • Incognito …

               31 May 2020 at 11:37 pm

               That’s my usual dinner time, 8:00 PM. I’d suggest a Midnight Oil (MO) post but then I’d have to schedule and monitor it 🙁
               • weka …

                 1 June 2020 at 12:24 am

                 Midnight Oil Review. That'd be you, me and McFlock.
                 • Incognito …

                   1 June 2020 at 12:25 am

                   We could do worse.
                   • weka …

                     1 June 2020 at 12:26 am

                     🙂
                   • Incognito []

                     1 June 2020 at 12:32 am

                     Just scheduled a Post for tomorrow. Not my best ever, but I was long overdue for one. I’ve got too many half-finished ones and then I lose interest or they get overtaken by developments or events.
                   • weka …

                     1 June 2020 at 10:28 am

                     I totally understand, looking at my list of unfinished posts 😳 I'm trying to teach myself to put the posts up even if I am not completely satisfied with them.

                     Off to have a read now 🙂
                   • weka …

                     1 June 2020 at 11:47 am

                     reflecting on that a bit more. I started writing posts after covid hit and then not posting them because it was harder to tell in those early days what was useful or even ok to write*. Now it's more like yes I could say these things but is this what I really want to be saying? Do people want to be reading? What are we even doing? lol. I'm sure the election will sharpen my focus again.

                     *same with BLM right now too.
                   • Incognito []

                     1 June 2020 at 2:36 pm

                     Covid was and still is hugely confusing and scary. I had many things on my mind but decided to stick closely to the facts and the science that was rapidly evolving. As soon as economics and politics became involved – they always go hand-in-hand – the story became murkier and harder to follow and comment on.

                     BLM is too emotionally charged to have a sensible conversation about on this blog IMHO. Whatever I’d say, it would not make one iota of difference to what’s happening and likely to be taken the wrong way as Taika Waititi has found out.

                     https://www.stuff.co.nz/entertainment/121686071/george-floyd-taika-waititi-under-fire-for-black-lives-matter-comments

                     It makes it very hard to moderate, at times, but luckily, the commentariat has been exemplary 🙂

                     Bring on the Election, I say!
       • mary_a 5.2.1.5

         31 May 2020 at 3:15 pm

         Me too.
6. Obtrectator 6

   31 May 2020 at 10:33 am

   How the Minister Of Truth (a.k.a. D Cummings) rewrites the past on his blog, to make himself seem ultra-prescient.

   https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2020/may/30/dominic-cummings-boris-johnson-evil-geniuses-hardly-lazy-incompetent

   A longish piece, but well worth sticking with.
7. Ed 7

   31 May 2020 at 10:36 am

   John Wight has written an excellent article about the murder of George Floyd and the recurrent theme of racism in U.S history.

   Born out of genocide, raised through slavery, the U.S. is an imperialist rogue state.

   'Chauvin with his knee on the neck of a supine George Floyd was the acme of the evil of white supremacy. He was the overseer with his knee on the neck of a runaway slave. He was the the slaveowner’s whip, the lynch mob’s noose, the prison guard’s boot. In other words, Chauvin symbolised in those eight minutes the entire legacy and long history of racial oppression in country that was born in genocide and developed and nourished for two centuries on the back of the African slave trade."

   The Murder of George Floyd — White Supremacy’s War on Black America Rolls on
8. ScottGN 8

   31 May 2020 at 11:02 am

   Not a betting man (and I know it doesn’t portend anything) but occasionally I check the markets for the odds on our election.

   They’ve all pretty much blown out for Labour in the week since Muller took over.

   In the UK William Hill is paying 1/7 for Labour to form government after the election versus 9/2 for National.
   In Australia, Sportsbet has Labour at 1.14 versus the Nats at 5.50. Going into Covid the odds were pretty even. They have opened a second market on the likelihood of Labour to govern in its own right (with no support partners regardless of whether they’re needed or not) currently paying 1.50 for Labour to NOT form government in its own right versus 2.25 for them to do so.
9. joe90 9

   31 May 2020 at 11:47 am

   Oh fuck.

   https://twitter.com/KillerMartinis/status/1266618525600399361

   https://twitter.com/KillerMartinis/status/1266786725185142784

   https://twitter.com/KillerMartinis/status/1266786161143537669

   https://twitter.com/KillerMartinis/status/1266789497842393088

   (Linda Tirado on TS)
10. Macro 10

    31 May 2020 at 12:03 pm

    Seems like the alt-right and white supremacists are seizing on a gifted opportunity to create trouble and further division in a troubled country.

    “Let’s be very clear, the situation in Minneapolis is no longer in any way about the murder of George Floyd,” he added.

    St. Paul Mayor Melvin Carter said most of the arrests made last night were of people from out of state and while “there’s a group of folks that are sad and mourning,” he said “there seems to be another group that are using Mr. Floyd’s death as a cover to create havoc.”

    Department of Safety Commissioner John Harrington said they are contact-tracing the arrested and added that an investigation is underway about white nationalist groups posting online to encourage their members to use the protests as a cover to create chaos.

    He said some of the 40 arrests made in the Twin Cities Friday night were of people linked to white supremacist groups and organized crime.

    “The people that are doing this are not Minneapolis residents,” Minneapolis Mayor Jacob Frey said. “They are coming largely from outside the city outside the region to prey on everything we have built.”

    https://www.courthousenews.com/minnesota-officials-link-arrested-looters-to-white-supremacist-groups/
    • joe90 10.1

      31 May 2020 at 12:25 pm

      Surprise…

      https://twitter.com/CharlesPPierce/status/1266788911939977217
      • millsy 10.1.1

        31 May 2020 at 12:29 pm

        White supramacists and KKK types have been infiltrating US police forces for decades.

        They have swapped the burning crosses and white hoods for badges and pepper spray.
    • mauī 10.2

      31 May 2020 at 1:13 pm

      Seems to me like a lot of angry young people of all different races involved in the chaos. But hey blame it on the alt-right.. or next why not Russia?
      • I Feel Love 10.2.1

        31 May 2020 at 2:05 pm

        I think if you threw a stone in any crowd you'd hit another faction, there's even people with bows and arrows ffs. And the leader tweets while the place burns.
      • joe90 10.2.2

        31 May 2020 at 2:25 pm

        But hey blame it on the alt-right.. or next why not Russia?

        Because people that were very fine people, on both sides, right.

        /
11. Dennis Frank 11

    31 May 2020 at 12:08 pm

    "Trump targets social media companies in new executive order "

    From the Fox News politics front page (scan down) – runs as a news clip without it's own page. The presenter interviews a legal adviser to explore the viability of Trump's attempt.

    He flags a likely constitutional issue (separation of powers) in respect of the question of whether the exec order is in breach of the act of congress he is attempting to get around.

    He ends by saying Twitter needs to decide what it will do when it grows up. After alerting us to media policy inconsistency by Twitter (owner/managers) and citing examples to validate his reasoning.
12. ScottGN 12

    31 May 2020 at 12:21 pm

    So in a time of very challenging employment uncertainty the National Party wants the government to bring back the 90 day fire-at-will laws for medium and large employers. They want to increase uncertainty for stressed out NZ workers? Just who is advising these losers?
    • Sacha 12.1

      31 May 2020 at 12:30 pm

      Mediocre business managers and owners who lack the ability to select good staff, that's who.
    • millsy 12.2

      31 May 2020 at 12:36 pm

      ACT wants a 12 month trial period and 3 year minumum wage freeze..

      If these clowns had their way, we would have the US system of at will employment where you could be just sacked at any time for any reason, and that if you turned up at work and found your password didnt work, that meant you were sacked.

      COVID has provided the once in a life time opputunity for employers and businesses to slash their wage bill by 20%.
    • Chris T 12.3

      31 May 2020 at 2:15 pm

      a) The 90 day trial period is still there for employers with 19 or less people, as Labour didn't fulfill their promise to get rid of it.

      b) Do you mind posting some stats on how many of your claimed workers were "fired at will" and how many got work they would have otherwise not got due to risk to the employer of them being crap without it?
      • millsy 12.3.1

        31 May 2020 at 2:26 pm

        Sad when we set the bar so low that employers will only take workers on if they can get rid of them.

        That implies that workers are treated as disposable in this country and have no value.
        • The Al1en 12.3.1.1

          31 May 2020 at 2:47 pm

          As always, the onus on satisfactorily employing staff lies on the employer doing their due diligence during and after the interviewing process. If they fuck up, tough, they had their chance.

          Having said that, I'm okay with a trial period, though not three months, more like a couple of weeks at most. Any employer that needs, or waits, until day 89 to find out it hasn't worked out is a bit of a wanker.
13. RedBaronCV 13

    31 May 2020 at 12:43 pm

    Background of the new police commissioner. Interesting interview in which his faith is mentioned numerous times but we don't find out exactly what it is based on. This and other articles have also outlined his career trajectory. While his background and education are nothing particularly unusual at some point he seems to have entered a career path that even the most competent could only dream about. Was he being groomed as a future commissioner and if so by whom ? Can’t quite put my finger on it but there is something that feels not quite comfortable?

    https://www.stuff.co.nz/national/politics/300003371/national-portrait-andrew-coster–top-cop
14. Treetop 14

    31 May 2020 at 1:21 pm

    I was giving it a thought on what those with spare cash to buy shares with, what type of shares they will buy?

    For some current share holders it will be like a crash, depending on what they have invested in

    I expect people will still invest in residential property as people always need a home.
    • tc 14.1

      31 May 2020 at 2:03 pm

      Commodities such as gold, lithium etc i.e. the elements of an electrical world.
      • Treetop 14.1.1

        31 May 2020 at 3:15 pm

        Oil and airline shares were never any good for the planet.

        There has to be a better way in extracting gold without the damage it causes.
        • Craig H 14.1.1.1

          31 May 2020 at 8:58 pm

          The largest gold mines are rubbish dumps in developed countries.
15. observer 15

    31 May 2020 at 2:24 pm

    National have picked Mike Butterick as their candidate for Wairarapa, a seat they hold.

    In the pre-Covid days, you might remember the angry protest march on Parliament

    by a group called "50 shades of green". This included signs calling the government "c***s", the "make Ardern go away" placards, MAGA caps, and suchlike.

    The group is (was?) led by Butterick.
    • Psycho Milt 15.1

      31 May 2020 at 2:46 pm

      Here's his speech (I think from the same event).

      It's a mixture of self-pity, whataboutery and special pleading, with the actual argument very difficult to discern. He seems like an excellent fit with National's existing caucus, in other words.
      • Grafton Gully 15.1.1

        31 May 2020 at 5:37 pm

        He does indeed. An "actual argument" is that the townies and their arts fucking festivals and delicatessens mainly leach off agriculture to survive.
        • Sacha 15.1.1.1

          31 May 2020 at 5:41 pm

          Damn them for adding value. Milk powder forever!
    • patricia 15.2

      1 June 2020 at 2:44 am

      Scoop forgot to add Mike's protest to his bio.
16. millsy 16

    31 May 2020 at 2:28 pm

    Space X mission launched this morning:

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1gmvUPTdoP4

    I know we are generally supposed to be opposed to private spaceflight, SpaceX and Elon Musk, but this was pretty impressive, and good to see something positive happen for a change.
    • I Feel Love 16.1

      31 May 2020 at 3:59 pm

      Safer out in space than in the USA at present. And I would have thought a Covid free NZ pretty good news lately.
17. joe90 17

    31 May 2020 at 3:02 pm

    200 years.

    https://twitter.com/ericabuddington/status/1266531249914601472

    https://threadreaderapp.com/thread/1266531249914601472.html
    • joe90 17.1

      31 May 2020 at 3:28 pm

      Things are going well.

      https://twitter.com/breaking911/status/1265839057994764288

      https://twitter.com/dailydigger19/status/1266146984513191944

      https://twitter.com/jeffgoodell/status/1266869845972463618

      https://twitter.com/Gingersonfire/status/1266884702519955456
      • I Feel Love 17.1.1

        31 May 2020 at 4:03 pm

        Jeez, got cops driving into people, there's footage of some shop owner being beaten to death by mob, batman, it's a real mess. I watched the doco LA92 a few months back but this is a whole new level of cray cray.
        • joe90 17.1.1.1

          31 May 2020 at 4:10 pm

          The headline of a failed state.

          Gripped by disease, unemployment and outrage at the police, America plunges into crisis

          […]

          “The threads of our civic life could start unraveling, because everybody’s living in a tinderbox,” said historian and Rice University professor Douglas Brinkley.

          Barbara Ransby, a historian at the University of Illinois at Chicago and a longtime political activist, said the toll of the coronavirus outbreak made long-standing racial inequities newly stark. Then, images of police violence made those same disparities visceral.

          http://archive.li/4p9JH (wapo)
        • Peter 17.1.1.2

          31 May 2020 at 4:20 pm

          There are always tensions. There have always been upset people and violence has happened.

          The emotional state of the country is in an unusual place with the pandemic. The many media platforms means everyone has access to attitude forming material. Something dramatic happens and what you rely on is rationality, resilience, respect and trust in systems and leadership.

          There has been burning in the streets over a couple of days. Over a couple of years there have been fires burning rationality, respect and trust. Welcome to Trump's America.
    • Fireblade 17.2

      31 May 2020 at 4:54 pm

      In the land of the free and the home of the brave, residents must stay inside their homes or the National Guard will shoot you.

      https://www.twitter.com/tkerssen/status/1266921821653385225
      • Obtrectator 17.2.1

        31 May 2020 at 6:36 pm

        "When the law not merely fails to guarantee the safety of life and property, but directly threatens both, the subject is absolved from obedience to it, and civil society collapses." (Paul Johnson: "The Offshore Islanders", 1972)

        He was writing about the causes of the misleadingly-termed Great Rebellion which led to the English Civil War of the 1640s. But the sentiment is relevant in any age or society. By all means do what's necessary to curb out-of-town looters seizing chances for mayhem. That most emphatically does not include charging down a peaceful residential street loosing off missiles at people on their own properties going about their lawful occasions. State-supported terrorism doesn't altogether too strong a term for this appalling behaviour.
      • I Feel Love 17.2.2

        31 May 2020 at 7:30 pm

        wow…
18. Tasman Terror 18

    31 May 2020 at 4:28 pm

    Isn’t it interesting how our woke media criticism the Nats supposed lack of diversity on it’s front bench but not the Greens lack of gender diversity? In their Party List there is one male and seven females.Would the woke media be criticising a front bench of seven men and one women?
    • I Feel Love 18.1

      31 May 2020 at 7:33 pm

      is it interesting? I must admit I've yet to look up the definition of "woke", but I don't think I really care.
      • Sacha 18.1.1

        31 May 2020 at 7:59 pm

        I'm confident it has nothing to do with our media. But yes, meh.
      • Anne 18.1.2

        31 May 2020 at 11:12 pm

        I did look up the meaning once and still don't understand what it means. I don't care either because its a silly word.
    • Ad 18.2

      31 May 2020 at 7:48 pm

      Standing for being an MP would be attractive to more men if there was more power attached to the job.

      Our current Prime Minister is building the Labour Party list with young and talented women. Over three terms there's just a chance they will collectively get to redefine how power is exercised in Parliament full stop.

      Just maybe it's time for that.
    • weka 18.3

      31 May 2020 at 7:55 pm

      Three men in the top ten, ten in the top twenty. Want to know how long we had the reverse or less? Yeah, when the balance of power in society has been redressed the Greens can revisit their gender equity policy.
    • Andre 18.4

      31 May 2020 at 8:02 pm

      Meh. They are all capable and won their selection on merit. Wake me up to care about it when men are under-represented overall in positions of power and capable male candidates are routinely shoved aside to make room for time-serving female drones.
    • Incognito 18.5

      31 May 2020 at 8:03 pm

      You are trolling and posted the same ‘query’ over at KB today. The answer was provided and to be more precise, it was answered in great detail by Graeme Edgeler on KB on 16 April. Something tells me that you do not care and do not have the slightest interest in the answer/explanation. It is a sure sign of you being a stupid little troll. You can prove me wrong, of course, but I won’t hold my breath.
      • Sacha 18.5.1

        31 May 2020 at 8:07 pm

        Wise – "the Nats supposed lack of diversity on it’s front bench" does not suggest a good faith intent.
      • Andre 18.5.2

        31 May 2020 at 8:09 pm

        Well, since the purpose of trolling is to rark up responses, it has to be conceded that was actually a fairly successful troll.
        • Incognito 18.5.2.1

          31 May 2020 at 8:18 pm

          The whetstone is always ready for trolls and with the upcoming Election my tolerance levels are lowering.
          • Sacha 18.5.2.1.1

            31 May 2020 at 8:21 pm

            Scythe away..
          • bwaghorn 18.5.2.1.2

            31 May 2020 at 9:48 pm

            Ooh that's right election season is banning season .

            Lprent usually shows no mercy ,great fun to watch.
    • observer 18.6

      31 May 2020 at 9:45 pm

      Actually what our "woke media" did was … wait for it … ask the National leader some questions. The horror, the mind control!

      They couldn't have predicted the hilarity of the answers.
19. Macro 19

    31 May 2020 at 5:14 pm

    Global deaths in 2020 from different causes:

    https://public.flourish.studio/visualisation/2562261/
    • McFlock 19.1

      31 May 2020 at 8:50 pm

      pretty crazy watching covid jump up like that.

      But hey, it's just a flu, no need for worry. /sarc
20. Macro 20

    31 May 2020 at 5:26 pm

    ‘This is how we feel every day’ – protester compares violence in LA to racial inequality in society
    “This is what it’s like to walk down the streets. It’s chaos. I’m afraid every time a police officer drives past me.”

    https://abc7.com/video/embed/?pid=6222259
    • Ad 20.1

      31 May 2020 at 7:44 pm

      I was a fairly surprised this evening to hear my 78yr old dad defending the protesters going nuts on the street. In his view it was because the same people were being treated the same way for multiple decades, it wasn't getting better, and they've had enough.

      That's not usual for my dad who is usually a NZFirst voter.
      • Macro 20.1.1

        31 May 2020 at 10:05 pm

        Your dad is 4 years my senior, but I think a lot of us septuagenarians would share a similar viewpoint. We grew up with the powerful film "To Kill a Mockingbird" and read the book. We saw and read "Black Like Me" the true story of John Howard Griffin who darkened his skin and travelled through the segregated US south. And many more. We saw the tyranny of the KKK and similar groups. Lived through the 60's and witnessed, via television and radio, the civil rights movement and heard Martin Luther King and probably sang "We shall overcome". And saw the slow dismantling of segregation in the south.

        On the 28 August 1963 Martin Luther King in his famous "I have a Dream" speech said'

        We cannot be satisfied as long as a Negro in Mississippi cannot vote and a Negro in New York believes he has nothing for which to vote. No, no, we are not satisfied, and we will not be satisfied until justice rolls down like waters and righteousness like a mighty stream.

        I am not unmindful that some of you have come here out of great trials and tribulations. Some of you have come fresh from narrow jail cells. Some of you have come from areas where your quest for freedom left you battered by the storms of persecution and staggered by the winds of police brutality. You have been the veterans of creative suffering. Continue to work with the faith that unearned suffering is redemptive.

        my bold

        Those words could be echoed today
      • Macro 20.1.2

        31 May 2020 at 10:24 pm

        https://twitter.com/Namixcv/status/1266378273161768964
21. Macro 21

    31 May 2020 at 10:18 pm

    Statement by Joe Biden

    These last few days have laid bare that we are a nation furious at injustice. Every person of conscience can understand the rawness of the trauma people of color experience in this country, from the daily indignities to the extreme violence, like the horrific killing of George Floyd.

    Protesting such brutality is right and necessary. It’s an utterly American response. But burning down communities and needless destruction is not. Violence that endangers lives is not. Violence that guts and shutters businesses that serve the community is not.

    The act of protesting should never be allowed to overshadow the reason we protest. It should not drive people away from the just cause that protest is meant to advance.

    I know that there are people all across this country who are suffering tonight. Suffering the loss of a loved one to intolerable circumstances, like the Floyd family, or to the virus that is still gripping our nation. Suffering economic hardships, whether due to COVID-19 or entrenched inequalities in our system. And I know that a grief that dark and deep may at times feel too heavy to bear.

    I know.

    And I also know that the only way to bear it is to turn all that anguish to purpose. So tonight, I ask all of America to join me — not in denying our pain or covering it over — but using it to compel our nation across this turbulent threshold into the next phase of progress, inclusion, and opportunity for our great democracy.

    We are a nation in pain, but we must not allow this pain to destroy us. We are a nation enraged, but we cannot allow our rage to consume us. We are a nation exhausted, but we will not allow our exhaustion to defeat us.

    As President, I will help lead this conversation — and more importantly, I will listen. I will keep the commitment I made to George’s brother, Philonise, that George will not just be a hashtag. We must and will get to a place where everyone, regardless of race, believes that “to protect and serve” means to protect and serve them. Only by standing together will we rise stronger than before. More equal, more just, more hopeful — and that much closer to our more perfect union.

    Please stay safe. Please take care of each other.

    https://medium.com/@JoeBiden/we-are-a-nation-furious-at-injustice-9dcffd81978f
    • Anne 21.1

      31 May 2020 at 11:23 pm

      Thanks Macro. I'm impressed with that statement.
22. Morrissey 22

    1 June 2020 at 2:40 pm

    How the police endanger us and why we need to find an alternative
    Alex S. Vitale The End of Policing (Verso, 2017)

    Recent years have seen an explosion of protest against police brutality and repression—most dramatically in Ferguson, Missouri, where longheld grievances erupted in violent demonstrations following the police killing of Michael Brown. Among activists, journalists, and politicians, the conversation about how to respond and improve policing has focused on accountability, diversity, training, and community relations. Unfortunately, these reforms will not produce results, either alone or in combination. The core of the problem must be addressed: the nature of modern policing itself. “Broken windows” practices, the militarization of law enforcement, and the dramatic expansion of the police’s role over the last forty years have created a mandate for officers that must be rolled back.

    This book attempts to spark public discussion by revealing the tainted origins of modern policing as a tool of social control. It shows how the expansion of police authority is inconsistent with community empowerment, social justice—even public safety. Drawing on groundbreaking research from across the world, and covering virtually every area in the increasingly broad range of police work, Alex Vitale demonstrates how law enforcement has come to exacerbate the very problems it is supposed to solve.

    In contrast, there are places where the robust implementation of policing alternatives—such as legalization, restorative justice, and harm reduction—has led to reductions in crime, spending, and injustice. The best solution to bad policing may be an end to policing.

    Reviews

    “The End of Policing combines the best in academic research with rhetorical urgency to explain why the ordinary array of police reforms will be ineffective in reducing abusive policing. Alex Vitale shows that we must move beyond conceptualizing public safety as interdiction, exclusion, and arrest if we hope to achieve racial and economic justice.”

    – Ruth Wilson Gilmore, Professor, CUNY Graduate Center, Co-Founder of Critical Resistance, author of Golden Gulag

    https://www.versobooks.com/books/2426-the-end-of-policing

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