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Osama Bin Laden dead

Written By: - Date published: 3:53 pm, May 2nd, 2011 - 190 comments
Categories: International, us politics, war - Tags:

3 News is reporting that:

Osama Bin Laden is dead and the US is in possession of his body, according to reports from a senior US counter-terrorism official.

A senior Pakistani intelligence official has also confirmed that Bin Laden is dead, according to the Associated Press.

US President Barack Obama is currently holding an emergency press conference. …

There are hundreds of people outside the White House now – but many more are expected to arrive as time goes by. Crowds of jubilant people have gathered cheering and chanting “USA. USA”. People are singing the ‘Star Spangled Banner’.

It is being reported that Osama Bin Laden was killed in a mansion by a drone strike near Islamabad in Pakistan.

However, CNN are reporting it was a human operation not a drone strike.

Labour Leader Phil Goff has said Bin Laden was responsible for the deaths of thousands of citizens and the world was a better place without him. “I have absolutely zero tolerance for terrorists who kill innocent people in pursuit of the ideological goals,” said Mr Goff.

I will never support violent terrorism and I agree with Goff, the world is better off without Bin Laden. But on the other hand I find the tactics of America, with their torture and illegal wars, rather difficult to distinguish from violent terrorism at times. And the thought of American triumphalism on this killing revolts me. Maybe time to go bush for a week.

190 comments on “Osama Bin Laden dead”

  1. Monty 1

    Good job – I hope they feed his festering body to the pigs.

  2. Carol 2

    And the thought of American triumphalism on this killing revolts me. Maybe time to go bush for a week.

    Indeed. His death is no loss to the world, but the triumphalism diverts from the reasons US imperialism & violent militarism is despised by many.

  3. higherstandard 3

    The biggest pity’s that they didn’t catch and kill him just after 9/11.

    • twgmbd 3.1

      Here’s a link to evidence from Wikileaks that the US had a very good idea as to Osama’s whereabouts back in 2008. Which begs the question why the delay?


  4. Hopefully they have DNA to be sure.

    • calltoaccount 4.1

      They have his body, according to Obama, so should have plenty of it. 😉

      • Treetop 4.1.1

        I knew that, but would a DNA sample have to be stored just to make sure to do a match?

        Also imaging can be used to calculate facial features, (there is a name for it).

        • calltoaccount

          Do, did, done, I imagine.

        • jimmy

          Hes from a very influential Saudi family in the construction business so a relative wouldn’t be hard to find.

    • toad 4.2

      I want to see the death certificate – long form – before I believe it!

      • higherstandard 4.2.1

        Is that you Donald ?

      • Howling Mad, Retired, Army Master Sergeant 4.2.2

        You know, I was going to comment here but I just realized that it would do no good because you liberal Pansy ass Politicly Correct idiots would just spin it like every other thing that gets said that you dont like.

        Your also going to say that Im a Conservative, (Only because that is your catch phrase for anything or one that doesnt see things your way), but in reality, both parties suck and suck so damn bad that I became a Libertarian around the time that that idiot Clinton took over with “her” (cant keep his willy in his pants) husband.

        The fact is that none of you Politicly correct morons would even be having this conversatiopn if one of your loved ones had died during 911 or you had spent as little as a week in either Iraq or Afghanistan and really knew what we were here for.

        But you dont know and so you open your mouth without even understanding what your saying,,, because you like to hear yourselves talk even thou its drivel coming out. Argue amongst yourselves and have a good day of it because I am entirely too intelligent to even think of coming back to this conversation.

        I will not have a battle of wit’s with an unarmed opponent so throw all the smack you want at me here while you can because you wouldnt dare say it to my face, pussy’s.

        Im doing whats right and when this page is dead and gone, I will still be here working to make the world a better place for you and your “PC” inspired families as well as those that do understand and appreciate what we as Americans are doing for them.

        • Treetop

          Because I started the thread 4 I have responded to you. I am not sure what you read into my comment about having DNA to be sure.

        • Fabius

          Is that you again, Pablo ?

          Stipator stultus es optimatum !


  5. PJ 5

    the biggest pity’s that they didn’t catch and try him just after 9/11. Proving his crimes beyond reasonable doubt and proving to the Islamic world that the western world does what it preaches, through a just, and enlightened approach, rather than using his name and the fear it generated to carry out terrorism of an equally repugnant nature

    • Carol 5.1

      “An eye for an eye, makes the whole world blind” – Gandhi

      • Glee McPerkins 5.1.1

        For fuck sake.

      • joe bloggs 5.1.2

        Gandhi also said:

        “It is better to be violent, if there is violence in our hearts, than to put on the cloak of nonviolence to cover impotence.”

        Which are you Carol? Blind or impotent?

        • Carol

          I do feel impotent when I see the triumphalism in response to a summary execution, while people are not holding the US government to account for all its terrorist violence in support of it’s imperialist power games. I’ve had to close down my twitter for the day. too many sheeple, too little thought of the consequences of US militarism.

          • William Joyce

            Justice is some thing we want but in our hands it is imperfect and sometimes never enough. But we try to be civilized and that is why we have law. But law is not perfect and sometimes not possible.
            In an imperfect world this is as good as we could get and all we can do is to hope that due diligence was done before action was taken.

          • todd

            Well said Carol. I to feel a certain amount of repugnance at America’s reaction.

            The greatest wisdom is seeing through appearances – Atisha.

          • U 4 United

            I have the same warm glow I enjoyed on the night of the 2008 General Election!

            • todd

              What a strange rejoinder.

              It would appear that your rosy alcoholic infused glow has turned into a greenish unhealthy tinge after the likes of Don brash escaped from the crypt and sucked the life force out of Nationals favourite clown Rodney Hide.

              The capitalist backstabbers are infected with a disease that results in pustules and soars that are oozing their collective corruption. Your struck down jubilation and rise of the Mana party must taste horrible to your over indulged right wing taste buds about now and be causing your stomach to churn.

              Comparing the 2008 election to Osamas death is about as mental as it gets. I usually like people sharing their feelings, but in your case, please don’t!

  6. Gosman 6

    Waiting for the Truthers to come on to bemoan this travesty of justice.

  7. Glee McPerkins 7

    Again thoughts with with all his victims, the only people who wont like this are terrorists and people who have massive chips on their shoulders about the USA.

    • rosy 7.1

      “the only people who wont like this are terrorists and people who have massive chips on their shoulders about the USA”

      Not necessarily. I don’t like it because although the man had forfeited his right to live by killing others in criminal acts, the state should not be doing the same – it should have principles of right, not revenge. For this reason I don’t support capital punishment at all. They need to prove they attempted to arrest him and had no choice but to shoot. Otherwise a bullet in the head is vigilantism.

  8. joe90 8

    And the thought of American triumphalism on this killing revolts me.

    The Manifest Destiny doctrine is alive and well..

  9. Pascal's bookie 9

    Heh. hate when you are about to write something, check a few reliable thinkers and find that exactly what you were going to say has already been said better than you could manage.


    Watching CNN try and hype this announcement as being some major milestone is leaving me dumbfounded. I won’t argue that its a big deal, in the sense that bin Laden was a worthy target to be found and eliminated, but the organization he started has long been a spent force, used more as an excuse and all-purpose label than an actual effective organization.

    The real story will be on what happens to U.S. relations with Pakistan given his presence living high near Islamabad, and what effect it will have on ongoing operations in Afghanistan. Politically speaking, bin Laden’s death offers an opportunity to realign priorities. Whether or not that opportunity is seized or ignored will be what I am watching for in the next few weeks.

    • NickS 9.1

      Yeah, the fact he was living about 40 minutes drive away from Islamabad and it’s hospitals is most interesting, especially as the bastard needed dialysis and eventually a kidney transplant in order to stay alive. What we may find out in future is that someone high up in Pakistan’s ISI helped him stay in Pakistan, possibly one of his contacts from the anti-soviet Jihad, for reasons of leverage over Islamic militants, or as a retirement plan for Osama’s “good work” in helping the Taliban take over Afghanistan.

      • Pascal's bookie 9.1.1

        As Pablo says over at Kiwipolitico:


        His location in a modern constructed (2005) fortified compound with 5 meter walls topped by razor wire located 40 miles outside of Islamabad suggests complicity by at least some elements of the Pakistani state in sheltering him. Although President Obama has said that he consulted with Pakistani authorities and that they “collaborated” in the operation, the truth is more likely that such statements are designed to save Pakistani face and that if anything, the Pakistani authorities were alerted only once the operation was well underway. The civilian government is weak, fractured and does not control either the military or the intelligence services (ISI). At least some elements of Pakistan’s security forces would have to have been alerted to the construction of the compound and the unusual nature of its occupants. The Pakistani state is fractured and acts as a sieve when it comes to information leaks. Thus it is improbable that the entire Pakistani security complex had no idea of bin-Laden’s whereabouts

        The existence of the compound cannot have been a secret. Therefore it was protected by someone.

        Pakistan, and more specifically, the western failure to recognise and account for her strategic interests in the stupidly named WOT have been an on going problem.

        It’s at a head round about …..now.

        • McFlock

          ISTR a comment relating to the so-called “Jackal” and his capture in Yemen – the concept that you really only give refuge to folk like that as a diplomatic bargaining chip. In this case, between the ISI involvement with the Taliban and the recent killings of 2 ISI agents (and a civilian, and the release of a US agent involved) one might say that the officially cordial relations between the US and Pakistan were becoming somewhat strained. And shortly afterwards Bin Laden is found in a compund in Pakistan.

          But given that it’s an intelligence operation, it’s not a mjor revelation to say there’s more to it than we will live to know. Hell, a family member might have delivered his home address simply to get a building contract.

  10. Deadly_NZ 10

    But don’t you find the scenes of people dancing in the street and waving the American flag just a little bit disturbing??? Yes Osama is dead. Good job, keep up the good work. But the street dancing that’s just, well, Creepy.

    • William Joyce 10.1

      Yes, it does seem a bit odd to rejoice at someone’s death. But this man was the mind behind a mass murder so big that so many people have been living in the shadow of it for so many years. Many them so young that for them that is the only world they know.
      I think of another time, in the years after the holocaust and the war, when people quite rightly rejoiced at the capture or killing of perpetrators of so much loss and grief.
      The death of this 76 year old doesn’t make the world safer but it is a form of justice and I want to let them have their cathartic moment.

      • todd 10.1.1

        Their rejoicing is pointless in the face of a continued war. The reasons given for the war are questionable with much evidence outside the realms of mere conspiracy theorists. The motivation of revenge is never a solution. Even the death to your worst enemy should be delivered coldly, and never with jubilation no matter how much grief they’ve caused. To celebrate death in any form is to invite the devil of retribution into your life. Such a revenge cycle or “justice” if your prefer, might not ever end. If you look below the physical, there are no winners in war, there are only losers.

        • William Joyce

          I make a distinction between the folly of starting a physical war on an idea, and any and all crime that may follow from that, and the penalty delivered for this crime of mass murder.
          Are we to say that because he would not “come along quietly” and subject himself to the law that he should have been left in his mansion because ? In the absence of further information I have to assume that
          Of course there will be some who want retribution but is that a reason to leave him alone? Should we leave criminals alone because it costs money to put them on trial?
          Yes, the jubilation may piss others off and they will have to get over it just as others had to get over the jubilation some people showed after 9/11 (Annette Sykes, some Palestinians etc).
          Now, if they then want to go so far as to get revenge and kill the innocent because they didn’t like the “jubilation” then that makes them as morally twisted as Osama and we are better off without them walking the streets.

          • todd

            Should we support those who perpetuate a falsehood to implement their own agenda, all in the guise of justice and righteousness while invading other countries for their resources? The pretext that is Osama has ended and thus Americas justification is all the more irrelevant.

            To compare the justification between wars is to try and give credence to what is essentially a defunct ideal. Comparing such to the pursuit of local criminals is even worse. Justice in its true sense of the word is undertaken to change people’s ways to hopefully ensure a safe society. We no longer kill a criminal for their conduct, no matter how powerful the revenge motive might be. This is a good gauge of how developed a civilisation has become.

            The justice you support in Americas wars is thoroughly misplaced. These wars are undertaken to gain advantage over another countries resources, they never were about inhibiting terrorists. America used the 9/11 events as justification for something they had planned for already. Such gives even more credence to the assertion that America had good reason to undertake, encourage or fail to deter what has been their catalyst to invasion. The weapons of mass destruction clearly were no longer going to cut the mustard.

            So while you support Americas jubilation of Osamas death, you condemn the support the killing of another set of people apparently had, all the while completely missing the fact that they’re all human beings. The religious, ethnic, resources and military dominance being the true reasons for all these killings seems to elude your obvious cognitive ability. The requirement for a scapegoat to hide Americas true motivation should not be lost on even the most mentally deficient amongst us.

            • William Joyce

              Todd, re-read what I posted….
              I made a distinction between the crime of 9/11 and what was done in the name of 9/11. The crime of 9/11 does not justify the invasion of Iraq or the bombing of a wedding in Afghanistan. However, neither do these things diminish the crime of 9/11. For the crime of 9/11 alone Osama had to be held accountable, (not to mention the embassies in Tanzania and Kenya, the first WTC bombing, the bombing of the USS Cole, Bali).

              You seem to be suggesting that because of the subsequent misdeeds of the US we should let Osama go.

              “To compare the justification between wars …..local criminals is even worse”. – You will need to elaborate because I don’t understand your point.

              “Justice in its true sense of the word is undertaken to change people’s ways to hopefully ensure a safe society.” – an interesting definition, what dictionary did you get that out of? Or does “true sense of the word” really mean “this is my own definition” and therefore shows my bias toward a particular philosophy?
              Society requires rules/laws for it to function.
              Laws necessitates sanctions for those who don’t abide by them else laws are pointless. Sanctions, in turn, involve the threat of coercion else sanctions are pointless.

              It is a dated, woolly headed, flower-power, all-the-world-needs-is-Coke, ideal that all people will abide by the law, abide by sanctions and will submit to coercion. So to is the idea all people are reformable. Some people aren’t and some don’t want to be.

              “We no longer kill a criminal for their conduct, no matter how powerful the revenge motive might be.” – yes we do! If a person presents a firearm and therefore threatens the safe functioning of “society”, and they will not submit to coercion (i.e. the police) then we remove the threat – and for a set of considered reasoning steps, that will most likely end in the death of the person presenting the firearm.

              You say that the removal of the sanction of death is how we measure how civilized we are as a society and I would find some agreement with this. Not that I oppose death as a sanction per se, but because any legal system is flawed and therefore any mistake, abuse or corruption in a conviction cannot be undone if the person convicted has been executed.

              “The justice you support in Americas wars is thoroughly misplaced.” – an assertion I never made & there makes that paragraph redundant.

              “So while you support Americas jubilation ……” – Again, not what was written. There is a difference between the rejoicing at the death of a mass murderer and rejoicing at the death of innocent people. It is quite an obvious distinction.

              The errors in your position seem to be
              – No death is justified and therefore Osama’s life was sacred.
              – Consequent or prior “crimes” committed by the US removes the sanctions due to a mass murderer.
              – Justice is only about reforming.
              – Reforming all people is possible.
              – Coercion is inherently bad and yet you live in safety because of it.

              • todd

                William Joyce

                For the crime of 9/11 alone Osama had to be held accountable.

                There is clear evidence that the tape the CIA presented of Osama taking responsibility for the 9/11 attacks was faked. Osama has also stated that he was not responsible. So where does that leave the justification for war? Such an argument is about as relevant as the weapons of mass destruction lies.

                You seem to be suggesting that because of the subsequent misdeeds of the US we should let Osama go.

                What a strange summation. What I’m suggesting is that thousands upon thousands of other people including many innocent Woman and Children do not have to die and that America has undertaken many of these wars under the pretext of anti-terrorism when their true motivation is oil reserves.

                An interesting definition, what dictionary did you get that out of? Or does “true sense of the word” really mean “this is my own definition” and therefore shows my bias toward a particular philosophy?

                Justice must be undertaken to create a safe society. My hypothesis is not a definition from a dictionary, because to debate such things would be trivial. Justice does not mean revenge, as this is the antithesis of a safe society.

                If you say I have a particular bias towards my own philosophy, then I suppose you’re correct. I do not subscribe to any particular existential philosophy and think that Ad Hominem arguments are un-productive.

                If a person presents a firearm and therefore threatens the safe functioning of “society”, and they will not submit to coercion (i.e. the police) then we remove the threat – and for a set of considered reasoning steps, that will most likely end in the death of the person presenting the firearm.

                You’re confusing justice with self defense.

                It is a dated, woolly headed, flower-power, all-the-world-needs-is-Coke, ideal that all people will abide by the law, abide by sanctions and will submit to coercion.

                You kind of lost me there on the coke tangent. There is nothing out-dated about peace. Such a concept is founded on a proper and intelligent consideration of reality. Those who undertake a peaceful life will find happiness, those who do not will find nothing but regret, hate and revenge in a never ending cycle of pain. I would rather paint flowers than be painted with the blood of my enemies.

                So to is the idea all people are reformable. Some people aren’t and some don’t want to be.

                Around 99% of criminals are reformable. It is only a very small part of the criminal population that cannot be reformed. Psychopaths in other words. We can however change the conditions that lead to their criminal behaviour, thus reforming them before they even become criminals.

                The errors in your position seem to be:
                – No death is justified and therefore Osama’s life was sacred.
                – Consequent or prior “crimes” committed by the US removes the sanctions due to a mass murderer.
                – Justice is only about reforming.
                – Reforming all people is possible.
                – Coercion is inherently bad and yet you live in safety because of it.

                -The evidence presented is not conclusive so yes! Osama’s killing was not justified, he should have stood trial.
                -We cannot resolve conflict by perpetuating more conflict through revengeful motivation.
                -Justice essentially is about removing the causative effects of crime. It is not just about reforming the criminal, although this is an integral part.
                -I live in relative safety because inherently humans do not require coercion to maintain civilization. Crime and punishment is not a natural equilibrium, it has taken thousands of years of regressive dynamics to cause societies current dysfunction.

    • Barry 10.2

      Ding dong the witch is dead?

    • rosy 10.3


    • Emmess 10.4

      No, you are fucking creepy lamenting the death of the most evil non-state terrorist in history

    • antitriumpalism 10.5


    • Colonial Viper 10.6

      The rejoicing in the streets of the killing of an Osama who has been largely irrelevant for years underscores one thing: how pathetically little ordinary Americans have to celebrate about their own lives and their own country at the moment.

  11. ianmac 11

    “Foreign correspondent for the Independent newspaper, Robert Fisk, who met and interviewed bin Laden three times, told Al Jazeera his death would have little impact on Al Qaeda’s operations or on the Arab/Muslim world.”
    And this is probably so. Since each unit of Al Qaeda was separate and not directed by anyone so the war will no doubt continue as before.

  12. And not to disappoint cowboy boy: Here is what the family members of those who perished want. An explanation of how a 47 floor twice reinforced building could collapse into its own footprint in 6.5 seconds on 911 when it had not been hit by a plane.

  13. William Joyce 13

    I could take the triumphal crowds if I thought that there was also widespread understanding, acceptance and regret for what has been done in their name in past administrations.

    However, human and cultural shortsightedness aside, this is a long time coming, and if it wasn’t for Bush / Cheney / Rumsfeld / Haliburton et al, the USA and the world would have been able to have been celebrated earlier.

    Congrats, USA. Obama got Osama
    ….and Trump, Palin, Tea Partyers, Birthers and all Republicans should all assume the position and grab their ankles….Yes he is an American and he got Osama!

    [lprent: pleeze, if you want to start religious wars, then do it in OpenMike. Which is where this whole subthread very nearly went, and I had serious thoughts about flame starter issues. ]

    • LOL. Obama’s birth certificate is as real as a purple dollar note
      [Trying to nip this nonsense in the bud, I’ll put a comment in this comment. The Obama birth certificate is a multi layer pdf because it is an optimised pdf file. In other words the layers are a function of optical character recognition / data compression. Check out the demonstration here. — r0b]

      • William Joyce 13.1.1

        Interesting link but explainable, perhaps the subject for another thread? The truth is some people will never be happy no matter what is presented.
        Interesting to note the possibility of a twin. Perhaps the real conspiracy is not “Is he American?” but “Is he Obama?”. They may have a number of “Obamas” out back that they trot out for various occasions. Perhaps we could start a “multiple birther” movement?
        For all I know, you could be Obama!

        • travellerev

          I think it fits very well in this thread because they published a pdf with layers still attached to it enabling everyone with Illustrator to show how the fake was build and it is just so blatant and stupid they had to come out with something like this. Somebody made a huge mistake in the White house releasing this certificate and while I didn’t much care for the whole issue I have to confess to having been converted.
          And yes I could!! you never know. rofl.
          [See note in 13.1 above. — r0b]

        • Obama

          No, I am Obama.

      • The Voice of Reason 13.1.2



        And who gives a shit where the US president was born anyway? Just the KKKlite and you apparently.

        • travellerev

          I don’t, as I said before I didn’t give it much thought but with such easily dismissable forgeries you have to wonder why. I would feel the same way by the way if the pres. had been white or yellow or purple. Good find VoR. LOL.
          I wonder why it is so sensitive anyway. If the law says that the US president has to be natural born American then that goes for both Arnie Schwarzenegger and Obama, no? This is not about skin colour but honesty. So again I catch you at an inverse sort of racism.

          • r0b

            The birth certificate is not a forgery Ev, please see the link I added to your comment 13.1 above.

          • The Voice of Reason

            Cheers, Ev. As soon as saw the phrase ‘purple dollar’ it rang a bell.

            Not sure where you get the inverse racism thing from, but no matter. I think we’ve already established your problems in that area. Like you, though, I wonder why that birth requirement exists. The US is a nation of immigrants, so being born there shouldn’t matter a damn. And if you are the best candidate and convince the voters to back you, that is all that should count. President Schwarzenegger couldn’t possibly be worse than the Presidents’ Bush.

            But I guess, for the new style organised racists in the US, the place of birth is a useful dog whistle if they can’t just come out and say we hate Obama because he’s black.

      • travellerev 13.1.3


        I have worked off and on with Illustrator for 23 years (Starting with Illustrator version 1). I have actually had to change documents and artwork for film (Special effects engineer and model maker) as has happened with the certificate.

        The layers are a function of editing and masking. To make a simple scan of a birth certificate is just that. A simple scan. No fancy character recognition needed. What they should have done after all the editing is “flattening” the illustrator file which means to put all the information on one layer and and delete the layer information.

        When did you generate layers when you made a simple scan of a document?

        Come on, and the registrar is called U K L lee, Ukelele? FFS, get real Rob you’re smarter than that

    • Deadly_NZ 13.2

      And the Bitch of it is that because he has finally after 10 years, (and all the American military, special services, special forces a huge army, unmanned drones, the spy base at waihopi and the ones in Aus and around the world spent 10 years trying and failing to catch a Pensioner.) Is that Barak will now get a higher approval rating and maybe even base his re election on “the man who got Osama.

      When you break it down it does not sound so flash Umpteen billions of bucks to catch a pensioner

      • lprent 13.2.1

        He wasn’t a pensioner FFS. He is only a couple of years old than I am.

        • rosy

          Yes this myth that he was an old man is propaganda from the 9/11 deniers – it annoys me on 2 levels:
          1. They do detailed examination of of 9/11 photos and reports yet they work on the idea that no-one will check out his birthdate (according to Wiki thats March 10, 1957, btw. 11 years younger than George Bush July 6, 1946 and only 4 years older than Obama) and

          2. even if he was a pensioner that’s meant to instill a narrative that he is beyond war-mongering or dottery and not be an evil old man and that is obviously false. Many, many men are rich, powerful pensioner-aged who do horrible things – arab dictators, US corporatists… Don Brash even.

          Planting false ideas – a reverse conspiracy theory, in effect?

          • Vicky32

            I heard a woman on the BBC saying “no one knows for sure when he was born”… not that it matters, but I was surprised by that!

      • Deadly_NZ 13.2.2

        I am sorry got him confused with our very own blood sucker.

        Bin laden was 54, still not a spritley young fella, and any video you see on tv he don’t move too well. I did find especially brutal was that he was shot in the head and dumped at sea, Not a very Christian thing to do, no matter who your enemy is.

        • rosy

          He might not have been well (makes sense that he was near a hospital) but he’s not the first to lead an organisation while in poor health. Take for example Franklin D Roosevelt who was president during the depression, brought in the new deal presided over the beginning of WW2 after contracting polio.

    • Carol 13.3

      When did all this revenge killing start, and when will it end? The US story about the attacks on New York in 2011, was that Al Qaeda and their supporters did it because they are jealous of “our” freedom. In fact, it was a response to the way the US has perpetuated undue violence and imperialist disruption & repression of life for civillians in Middle Eastern countries & elsewhere. A lot of resentment had built up over that, especially in the way the US supported, and continues to support Israel’s violence.

      The attacks on the Twin Towrers was a nasty act of revenge, taking out many civillians for the suffering of people at the hands of the US. Yes, Bin Laden should have been captured & tried for war crimes, (as should Bush). Since then the US government has used the trauma of the Twin Towers attack to justify imprisoning foreigners & US citizens without trial. They used it to justify attacking Afghanistan & iraq, causing untold civilian deaths and injuries and psychological trauma… the numbers far greater than the 3,000 killed in New York, and also using it as a vehicle for furthering US imperialist and capitalist aims..

      So now they get Bin Laden. Well, he was a nasty bit of works, so I shed no tears for him. But the actions of the US government and military have already driven many to the support of Al Qaeda. And so, to get Bin Laden, the US military goes into another sovereign country and commits a summary execution. Many Americans are dancing in the streets. Do you think there aren’t already many AQ members and sympathasiers already taking offense and plotting THEIR revenge on the US?…. and so it goes on…..

    • William Joyce 13.4

      @lprent : I don’t quite get your point but “I withdraw and apologize”.

      • lprent 13.4.1

        By very carefully dissing the range of fringe beliefs you opened the post up to a whole thread diverted off to those beliefs. 

        When there is a moderately serious post, we’d really prefer those arguments to take place in OpenMike because it gets to be a pain for anyone who isn’t particularly interested to seeing them all rehashed for the umpteenth time.  If we catch them early enough we’ll move them to OpenMike for that reason. If we detect someone doing it deliberately as a trolling technique (diversion trolling) they’ll frequently get a educational ban.

  14. swordfish 14

    LONDON (AFP) – “The mastermind of the 9/11 attacks warned that Al-Qaeda has hidden a nuclear bomb in Europe which will unleash a “nuclear hellstorm” if Osama bin Laden is captured, leaked files revealed Monday…..Khalid Sheikh Mohammed told Guantanamo Bay interrogators the terror group would detonate the nuclear device if the Al-Qaeda chief was captured or killed, according to classified files released by the WikiLeaks website…..”

    But then again…..”Der Spiegel noted that his “confessions” should be treated with caution as they could have been extracted through torture. Sheikh Mohammed is known to have undergone the method known as “waterboarding”.”

    All of this reported in the Dom Post just a few days ago.

  15. Pascal's bookie 15

    More details here:


    Senior administration officials just offered more detail about the lethal raid on a background conference call with reporters. The operation took under 40 minutes. bin Laden “did resist the assault force,” a senior administration official says, but was shot “as our operators came into the compound.” A woman was used as a human shield but doesn’t appear to have died in the firefight — which can’t be said of bin Laden, one of his adult sons and two “couriers.”

    The Pakistanis provided intelligence useful to the raid, the official says, but the Pakistani government didn’t know about it beforehand. The official says it was “conducted [with the] utmost operational security.”

    The compound itself, the official says, is about five years old, and believed to have been built to shelter bin Laden — wow, so close to the Pakistani capitol — but it’s unknown how long bin Laden was there.

    The U.S. lost one helicopter in the operation, but U.S. officials wouldn’t specify more about it. bin Laden’s body is being “handled in accordance with Islamic practices and traditions.” No word on where it is, or if and when it or pictures of it will be released.

    No update yet from various right wing lunatics who claimed he was dead years ago. By happenstance, this is the anniversary of Commander codpiece’s ‘Mission Accomplished’ sign unveiling.

    • higherstandard 15.1

      “No update yet from various right wing lunatics who claimed he was dead years ago.”

      Have you looked up thread ?

      • Pascal's bookie 15.1.1

        “right wing lunatics”

        I’m thinking of some guy, can’t rembemer his name sorry, but he’s quite well respected on the right. Started out as a reviewer of musical plays, and by all account was competent enough at this imporatant task.

        Then 9/11 happened and he transmogrified himself into an expert on all things ‘war on terrier’, got gigs at National Review and syndicated columns, became a fixture on the cable teevee. Famous for saying that Saddam was dead when he wasn’t, and that OBL was dead dead deaddity dead. Most famous for saying teh Europe is doooooomed because of all the mooslim babies and the white women not having enough babies and it’s all the liberals fault and they won’t like it when they have to wear burkhas just you see if they don’t.

        Come on righties help a fella out, what’s the guy who reckons demographics prooooooove europe is doomed to be islamic befor the century is out?

        • travellerev

          HS means me PB.
          Sorry I’m not a right wing extremist but hey they have to give it a name. I’ll be voting for Hone next election. LOL.

          • The Voice of Reason

            You may not be a right wing extremist, Ev, but you are right wing lunatic, as HS actually said.

            • travellerev

              You will find that most of my sympathies are with left wing policies and I see that you feel justified to be rude and nasty and trollish in your behaviour. Uncalled for and dare I say it is shows your true colours. LOL.

              • The Voice of Reason

                Nah, fair call. You are probably very left wing because you say so and your support for the Taliban, the truthers and the birthers doesn’t diminish that in any way.

                • Who says I support the Taliban and what is right wing about wanting a new and independent investigation into the inconsistencies in both the events of 911 and the birth certificate issue.

                  • The Voice of Reason

                    Here: http://aotearoaawiderperspective.wordpress.com/2010/03/02/afghanistan-bans-coverage-of-attacks-will-detain-offending-journalists/

                    Everything about the truther/birther klan is rightwing, Ev. Everything.

                    • No VoR,
                      That is not supporting the “Taliban”. That is calling the people who fight the invading armies what they are for most Afghani’s. Freedom fighters. How I feel about them is neither here nor there. I would not want to live in Afghanistan as a woman and I think that the country is a hell hole and its people live in a culture that is alien to me but like me and you they are who they are and want to be left alone to live their lives the way they see fit. We are involved in an illegal war of aggression and we are polluting the country for the next 4.5 billion years with Depleted Uranium.
                      So how many “truthers” do you know VoR? Or how many “birthers” for that matter. LOL.

          • Vicky32

            Oh they’re so charming, Eve! Why do they feel so threatened by these ideas? Hey, PB, HS, Uncle Tom Cobbleigh and all, the Americans aren’t always the heroes! Like you, I am not a RW extremist, no 9/11 truth person I know is… Why do they want to believe we are?

        • higherstandard

          The best analysis I have seen in relation to the person I believe you are referring to is

          “Glen Beck is not “looney tunes”, he’s just discovered that acting looney tunes can be very profitable . Unfortunately, many of the less intelligen t and less informed people in this country actually believe what he says as well as others like him. i.e. Rush Limbaugh. They laugh all the way to the bank while they do great harm to this nation.”

          • Pascal's bookie

            nah not Beck. I think it’s a Mark somebody. Wishart still publishes him I think, or did until quite recently. His star has faded somewhat due to the whole Muslim baby menace being eclipsed by the socialismexicakenyan menace.

            • Pascal's bookie

              Mark Steyn is the guy I was thinking of. Michael ‘faster please’ Leeden is another one who used to say OBL was dead.

    • Deadly_NZ 15.2

      Bin Laden’s body is being “handled in accordance with Islamic practices and traditions.

      They tossed it into the sea like garbage. Yep they really do respect other peoples religion. NOT

    • Vicky32 15.3

      No update yet from various right wing lunatics who claimed he was dead years ago.

      Petty insults notwithstanding, I am not a right wing lunatic (although I am mental, as some charming sweet guy here has pointed out.) Noto bene, PB, bullying will always be remembered, even long after it’s been forgiven.

  16. Sanctuary 16

    I imagine Glenn Beck will demand to see Osama Bin Ladens long form death certificate.

  17. Draco T Bastard 17

    But on the other hand I find the tactics of America, with their torture and illegal wars, rather difficult to distinguish from violent terrorism at times.

    That’s because there is no difference and the political goal of both is exactly the same – control through terror.

  18. aj 18

    Without going into the rights or wrongs – I just spent a few minutes looking through the news channels and the public reaction is sickening, the commentary only slightly less so. Not just Fox, but some of the others.
    I despair for humanity.

    • William Joyce 18.1

      But this is humanity! Not necessarily good or bad.
      “We” grieve because some “well born” leggy blonde we never met dies in a car crash on the other side of the world.
      “We” rejoice when a form of long overdue justice is delivered to a mass murderer.

  19. toad 19

    Not sure of the circumstances, and the US forces may not have known bin Laden was among those they killed, but this seems to be a situation where the “kill or capture” policy is not appropriate.

    bin Laden will now be a martyr to the Islamic fundies. Just wait for the next terrorist attack to avenge his death.

    I think capturing him alive, if at all possible, and having him rot in jail for the rest of his life would have been the better option.

  20. By the way VoR do you still feel good about how we are “liberating” Libya or are you beginning to get an inkling of how fucking wrong that war is now that they are starting to bomb schools for disabled children or do you think that just because they are Arab the killing of children is justified while we are “liberating” them.

    • The Voice of Reason 20.1

      I think you mistake me for someone else. I’ve never said I felt good that we are liberating Libya. I’d say it it’s as naive as the invasion of Iraq, actually. And just as likely to end well.

      • travellerev 20.1.1

        Oh no, that is true you just jumped to the defence of Marty when I called him out on being a racist for supporting the “liberation” of Libya. That may have caused my misconception. I still think you are a(n) (inverted) racist though for thinking that asking someone in the ultimate position of power over life and death (the nuclear button comes to mind) to be straight up and operating within the law of the land with regards to his right to be elected as the POTUS is somehow right wing or racist just because he is dark skinned.
        And no the invasion of Libya is not just naive. Both invasions and the one in Afghanistan, the future one in Syria and the one in Iran just a little bit further down the line are all illegal malevolent attacks on innocent peoples and we accept them because the people in those countries are dark skinned and different to us.
        That is racism in it’s most evil form as far as I am concerned.

        • The Voice of Reason

          Thank you for acknowledging that error, Ev. Any chance you’ll reconsider your unwarranted and unsupported charge that I am a racist as well? A simple ‘well, I’ve got absolutely no proof, so I shouldn’t have said it’ would do.

          • travellerev

            You tell me that if Obama lied about his place of birth he should not have been the president of the US and I’ll reconsider.
            However until now you have accused me of all kinds or prejudices because I dare to ask questions about his birth certificate so I think that you will keep on excusing Obama’s behaviour on the grounds that he is a black man and we should not hold him to he same standards we would hold a white man. That my friend is racism and you are guilty of it.

            • The Voice of Reason

              “… I think that you will keep on excusing Obama’s behaviour on the grounds that he is a black man and we should not hold him to he same standards we would hold a white man. That my friend is racism and you are guilty of it.”

              So, because you “think” it, I’m guilty. There’s a word for that. I don’t give a shit about Obama’s birth certificate or the colour of his skin. The only people who do are, for the most part, racists. And a few constitutional pedants, I suppose. If you have any actual, you know, evidence that I’m a racist please show me.

              • Pascal's bookie

                Not even constitutional pedants. even if he wasn’t born in the US*, he would still have been born a citizen by virtue of his mother’s citizenship and residence.

                All ‘natural born’ has been taken to mean** is that the person did not need to have citizenship conferred upon them. they were naturally born a citizen. They have citizenship by nature of their birth.

                *and he has provided all the evidence that has ever been required of any other*** candidate

                ** up until a black person got nominated that is. Now, there are p(ret)endants arguing that ‘natural born’ means all sorts of things that would have rendered other presidents**** unconstitutional

                *** white ones, as it happens.

                **** see ***

            • Anne

              @ travellerev:

              Did you ever ask questions about the birth certificates of any of the past ‘white’ US presidents?

              • Now that is a good question. No, but perhaps they should have. I didn’t give a flying fuck initially but this certificate is so preposterous I just wonder why they even bothered. Having said that the previous presidents perhaps by way of being white good ole boys had a long history in US politics and didn’t just show up one day so maybe that made a difference.
                And just to proof you wrong I have serious questions about John Key and his reasons for returning to NZ from his lucrative Wall street career too and he is as white bread as they come.
                Pascal’s bookie: I’m sure different people have different reasons for questioning Obama and his legality but mine are based solely on the last certificate and so far I have not been convinced it is real.

                • Armchair Critic

                  Though it might be contributory negligence to ask, Ev, I’ll do so anyway – why do you care whether Obama’s birth certificate is real or fake?

                  • lprent

                    Arggh you’re just trying to wind me up. But it does puzzle me as well.

                    • Armchair Critic

                      I’m looking for something to which Occam’s Razor can be applied. Though I take your point that it will likely lead to flaming and be off-thread.
                      On thread – the world is a better place overall without OBL, and I find it terribly difficult to find any joy in the death of another person, even those who have committed atrocious deeds.

                  • Who says I care? As far as I am concerned Obama is a puppet so where ever he is born is no concern to me.

                    I find the fact that the certificate was such and obvious forgery (and yes I watched the video Rob and no it is not convincing because the layer issue is just a part of the whole certificate. a registrar with the name U K L lee (ukelele) is just beyond the pale and the description as African of his dad (not used in these days) instead of Negro or Kenyan is a sure sign of hanky panky) and that they waited three years to show this forgery and that they spend $ 2 million to fight the guy who wanted Osama to show his birth certificate all the while saying that there was no other certificate than the silly little receipt they first showed all a bit much.

                    Why didn’t they show this certificate on the first sign of doubt just to make it go away? Why spend the $ 2 million? Why not show the real thing life in TV when they finally showed it?

                    It is not something that keeps me awake but come on, I have to have an original birth certificate to be able to stay in this country legally even after I can prove I have been married to the same Kiwi for 24 years and have lived in a stable relationship with this person and I have everything to prove that I am who I say I am and I don’t even get my hands on any dangerous buttons so you would think that someone who is elected to the most powerful job in the world would be vetted through and through wouldn’t you?

                    I don’t see why that makes me a right wing lunatic or why it shouldn’t interest anybody who thinks that there should be no difference to anybody with regards to the law.

                    • McFlock

                      No difference to anybody regarding the law, except you and the other “birthers” choose to shift the goal posts as soon as someone of a different skin tone becomes the president.

                      The birth certificate idiocy exists because Obama would pass a literacy test that Bush Jr would fail.

                    • McFlock,
                      Just in case you’re wondering. I think that Bush, Cheney, Rumsfeld, et all should be guillotined for crimes against humanity and America to be made to pay restitution for the killing of Iraqis and Afghani’s until kingdom come but since that would create the same problem as the German collapse after WWI and the subsequent build up to WWII I would be happy to leave it at the guillotining of the entire ruling elite of the US military industrial complex. That would mean an awful amount of rich old white guys. Happy now?

                    • Sam

                      I just a google image search on UKL Lee. There’s at least one other example floating around that has that signature on it, dated 1962.


                    • rosy

                      Sam, Well googled…, with all the resources Obama has at his disposal you’d think he would have come up with a better name that UKL Lee if they were going to fake it – dis he want to be exposed, or something?

                      I mean, that’s just as silly as Tony Blair’s predecessor being called John Smith and they dying (disappearing 😮 ) so Tones could stage a take over just after Smith had done all the hard work. How obvious!

                    • Armchair Critic

                      Who says I care? As far as I am concerned Obama is a puppet so where ever he is born is no concern to me.

                      You say you care, by paying attention to the birth certificate issue. Sure, you might say in words you don’t care, but your actions say otherwise.

                      I find the fact that the certificate was such and obvious forgery…and that they waited three years to show this forgery and that they spend $ 2 million to fight the guy who wanted Osama to show his birth certificate all the while saying that there was no other certificate than the silly little receipt they first showed all a bit much.

                      Obama, rather than Osama? I’d love to have a lifestyle where I could afford to be overwhelmed by a fuss over the birth certificate of a foreign president. Lucky you!

                      Why didn’t they show this certificate on the first sign of doubt just to make it go away? Why spend the $ 2 million? Why not show the real thing life in TV when they finally showed it?

                      Try Occam’s Razor, Ev.
                      Why should anyone have to make public their birth certificate? Surely there is a process to verify that a candidate for the presidency meets the requirements before campaigning begins. Very dificult to believe no checks were made. It seems to me that it would not be possible to prove that Obama was born in the US to the satisfaction of some people. Even constantly videoing potential presiendtial candidates from birth to inauguration wouldn’t suffice – I’ve no doubt some self-proclaimed expert, such as yourself, would claim there were flaws in the video. And that’s ignoring the fact that such videoing would (a) produce some pretty warped individuals and (b) is totally impractical.
                      For $2million I have no doubt a forger would produce something absolutely bullet proof. Again, the self-proclaimed experts would likely be saying “this is too perfect, so it must be a forgery”.
                      Why not show it on TV? Possibly (again) because there is no convincing some people.

                      Here’s three questions for you, and considering he is, in your words, “a puppet”, how does the location of his birth affect his ability to be president? If he were born in Kenya, or Indonesia, would he be a better or worse president, or just the same?

                      If it makes no difference, why the fuss?

                      It is not something that keeps me awake but come on, I have to have an original birth certificate to be able to stay in this country legally even after I can prove I have been married to the same Kiwi for 24 years and have lived in a stable relationship with this person and I have everything to prove that I am who I say I am and I don’t even get my hands on any dangerous buttons so you would think that someone who is elected to the most powerful job in the world would be vetted through and through wouldn’t you?

                      I don’t care a bit where you were born, to whom (or whether) you are married or for how long, how long you’ve been in NZ or what occupies your days. It makes no difference to me. Based on your comments on this site and your apparent lack of respect for human life I would be concerned if you were the C in C of the world’s largest armed forces, though, and not because of your place of birth, marital status or country of residence.

                      I don’t see why that makes me a right wing lunatic…

                      You may well not be a right wing lunatic, but you seem to have a fair bit in common with some particularly rabid right wing lunatics. And my reaction to your opinions, where they are the same as those held by right wing lunatics, is not changed by your claim not to be a real right wing lunatic.

                      …or why it shouldn’t interest anybody who thinks that there should be no difference to anybody with regards to the law.

                      There’s no proof that Obama hasn’t complied with the law, just innuendo. You are, in part, responsible for propogating it.
                      You are also responsible, in your own small way, for the fact that we are discussing an irrelevance like this instead of things that really matter.

  21. Redbaron77 21

    The demise of Osama bin Laden is good news for a number of reasons and politically for Obama. Finally justice has been meted out on a deadly romanticist who stopped at very little to create a utopia that would always be elusive for someone with his ideological mindset. Unfortunately due to a lack of collective wisdom and groupthink in the West, the process of bring Osama to justice has led to the tragic loss of many thousands of lives plus the displacement of millions still alive, and major damage to West-Middle East socio-cultural and political relations that will take a number of decades plus goodwill on both sides to repair.

  22. jen 22

    Justice has not been meted out. That would have happened if Bin Laden had been handed over to a neutral third party as offered by the taliban in 2001 and a proper trial happened. Justice of that sort was unacceptable to the US, and so it remains.

    • Where is the RULE OF LAW being applied here?

      Arguably George Bush and Tony Blair are guilty of war crimes after invading Iraq on the pretence that there were ‘weapons of mass destruction’ – when that was a proven lie.

      So – what would people feel about George Bush and Tony Blair being assassinated for their ‘war crimes’ and Iraqis dancing in the streets and waving their flags in celebration of their deaths?

      Not into this ‘vigilante justice’ stuff myself – either nationally – or internationally.

      It disgusts me.

      Penny Bright

  23. Bored 23

    Bin Laden sickening.
    US response equally sickening.
    Very sad, when will it end? Who will forgive and break the cycle?

  24. They got the wrong guy

  25. about 25

    i would have liked too see osama in court and hear his side of things,it would have been interesting

  26. steve 26

    Is this blog for real or just a place to be anti-American?
    Osama Bin Laden died many years ago, this is now Mr Obama doing all he can to stay in power

    • about 26.1

      could have had the 2 bushes in court giving evidence against osama
      and clinton etc ohh cheney ….now we never get to see WH dancing up and down on tv and all that (war)crimes stuff and they love to do
      And osama’s mates jumping up and down says how he never did it, it was a set up
      I heard when they got him he had a mask on …it was really Brash
      Makes sense, now we know why Hide shaved that little bit of hair in the middle of his top lip

  27. The Voice of Reason 27

    Conspiracy theory alert! Not only was OBL offed after he had already surrendered so that the Truth will never be known about the 9/11 inside job, now they’ve only gone and deep sixed the remains.


  28. Tiger Mountain 28

    ‘Delusion’ –“a false impression or belief”.

    Some of the comments on this post are pretty out there. What can be substantiated is ugly american imperialism helped create the conditions that fosters the likes of Al Qaeda, and then made it worse with the attack on Iraq and all the rest. Can we “bring the boys home” from Afghanistan now?

  29. gnomic 29

    Dead men tell no tales – unless perchance ObL penned an autobiography during his years in hiding. Unlikely I suppose we’ll ever know what really went on here, in terms of the actual extrajudicial execution, or how bin Laden managed to avoid discovery for so long.

    This Pakistan, isn’t it at least nominally an independent state? Yet the USA conducts military actions there as it pleases as far as can be told. What’s up with that?

  30. HC 30

    Wow! Obama has got Osama!

    Peace is breaking out all over Afghanistan, Taleban and tribal warriors plus the Afghan troops are dancing together with ISAF soldiers around campfires where lamb is roasted on the spits. Pakistan and India have signed a peace treaty, committed themselves to abolish all their nuclear weapons, Iran has declared that democratic rights are given to all citizens and parties, who are now allowed to hold free public meetings, Syrian president Assad has just resigned in humble respect for human rights to be upheld in his country, president Mubaraq has been locked up in a prison cell for good, Israel is going to unify with the remnants of Palestine and accepted that one unified nation of Jewish and Palestinian residents called United Palestine will be established, Libyan leader Gaddhafi has just booked a flight to Washington to seek asylum in the USA, Europe is opening borders to all economic and other refugees from all over Africa to strengthen it’s work force and grant all refugees human rights and a chance to better their poor lives.

    The world is changing right now at an instance!

    Or have I been wrongly informed?

    Who is Osama by the way?

  31. Osama may be dead but the sick geopolitical circumstances that gave rise to him are still present. His death looks like it will enhance rather than diminish those circumstances and send us on another circuit of the same brutal nonsense.

    I don’t subscribe to a ‘Great/Evil Man’ view of history so I really don’t see what there is to celebrate. I can understand why some people who directly lost loved ones, relatives and friends might feel some solace, at least initially, from this, but the rest of us? I don’t see what we gain. Show some amorphous ‘them’ who’s boss?

    As the Beatles said: “Wiping the dirt from his hands as he walked from the grave; No-one was saved.”

  32. joe90 32

    Mahmoud Salem
    Dear Western Journalists in Islamabad, especially american ones, I would highly recommend getting out of dodge ASAP! #OBL
    8 hours ago via web
    Retweeted by ShilanSaidi and others

    And this didn’t take long.

  33. Jenny 33

    I was listening to the National programme in my car when I heard the news.

    A woman who lost her husband in the twin tower bombings was interviewed for her opinion. This woman wasn’t celebratory, she said that anyone’s death is not a cause for celebration.

    She said she was also dissapointed that he could now not be made to face up to his crimes.

    In her opinion he should have been captured alive and tried in court for his crimes against humanity.

    She felt cheated by this extra-judicial execution.

    My opinion is, that the summary execution of Bin Laden was not a sign of America’s strength but of it’s weakness.

    The so called greatest military force on earth could not capture this man alive even though he was in allied country and the house he was staying in, which reportedly, was close to a large Pakistan Military base, whose hundreds of soldiers could have helped secure the area and aid the arrest.

    What does this tell us. That the US cannot even work with their closest allies?

    Either that or they had something to hide by not capturing Bin Laden alive.

    What makes me suspect the later is that instead of returning Bin Laden’s corpse to his family. His body was furtively dumped in the sea in the manner of a Mafia hit.

    What were they frightened of?

    This behaviour doesn’t fit with that of a confident superpower, assured of it’s moral superiority and at the height of it’s power and confident in the support of it’s allies.

    In fact it screams the opposite.

    President Obama in announcing this killing, (which he said he had personally ordered) gave an assurance that no Americans had been hurt in this raid. He also said that every effort had been made to prevent innocent civilian deaths. Pointedly he didn’t give the same assurance that no Pakistani civilians had been hurt or killed.

    The impression given is that The US is not only weak but it is brutal and racist and cowardly all efforts were made to protect there own.

  34. joe90 34

    Not to make light of a mans death but: Robin Williams – 71 Virginians.

  35. joe90 35

    A reconstruction of the assassination of OBL and from Keith Olbermann’s blog the supposed live tweet of the events.

  36. Vicky32 36

    Just want to make it clear where I part company from Eve – I am not in way a ‘birther’!

    • Other than mildly curious and somewhat bewildered by his refusal to show the damn thing I couldn’t be bothered about it really either. I don’t consider him to be a “real” president anyway. He’s just a banker owned sock puppet who reads tele-prompters so who cares.

      And while I understand that proper respect needs to be paid to the will of the owners of this blog I just don’t like being told about what I can or cannot talk about for fear of being called whatever and it seemed like as good a subject to get people all upset about as any within this thread.

      If buildings can not collapse in and on themselves without breaking Newtons laws of Physics and the only three steel framed buildings to ever collapse as a result of carbon fires collapsed on 9/11 and only two of the buildings collapsing in New York where hit by planes we have real problems of a far bigger magnitude to worry about.

      We need a new and independent investigation into what really happened on 911 and I support Architects and Engineers for 911 truth in their quest to achieve just that.

  37. linda hartwick 37

    It took a long time for the us to kill bin laden they thought he was hiding out in a cave I dont think so he had money and friends to take care of him. BEWARE there will be revenge and pay back I dont think it will be safe to travel. I just left heathrow airport yesterday guess what at this airport you dont have to take your shoes off going through security my advice to them get your act together shoes off!! We are all at risk london england has let there guard down! I know I was there for six days.

    • rosy 37.1

      “you dont have to take your shoes off going through security”
      Thats only if you are wearing light footwear. Boots or platforms have to be removed. Seems logical to me.

  38. GorjusGeorge 38

    The US justification for the ‘burial at sea’ was to prevent his grave becoming a focus for his fanatical followers. But such gatherings would be a perfect opportunity to do surveillance on them – or am I missing something here?
    The fact that the US and its allies could not locate Bin Laden for 10 years and suddenly they know where he is – in a massive compound close to Islamabad that would show up on Google Maps let alone the satellites the US military have – yet they didn’t know he was there? Then Navy Seals swoop in and summarily execute him. He may well have deserved it – but in my book no more than Bush, Blair and Co. The fact that they didn’t want to bring him to trial – surely the greatest PR coup of any presidency – is telling. Either it wasn’t really Bin Laden or there are facts about his life and death they want covered up.

  39. millsy 39

    This means that Americans and their various hangers on should probably declare victory and go home now.

    Shouldnt they……

  40. Oh dear, oh dear,
    Now it’s not just wild eyed pimple faced nutty computer geeks but newspapers like the Guardian which point out some obvious discrepancies in the photo’s and circumstances surrounding the “death” of uber killer Osama bin Laden.

    • rosy 40.1

      No, they’re just pointing out the unofficial photo that has been circulating is a re-run from 2 years ago. They didn’t touch it then and are saying don’t believe it now – it’s a fake. The US has not released any photos as all, they’re still deciding whether to is what I heard at the White House press conference on BBC

  41. Hi Rosy,
    It has been removed now but it was put in pride of place replacing the royal wedding on the front page of the royal mail. The photo they used as the top half of Osama’s head has been circulating for a couple of years.

    • Pascal's bookie 41.1


      You said that the gaurdian was pointing out “obvious discrepancies in the photo’s and circumstances surrounding the “death” of uber killer Osama bin Laden.”

      That’s not true at all. The gaurdian was merely pointing out that a photo other media were using, is a fake. All that means is that media are slack, pressed for time, and don’t resource fact checking as well as they ought to. Update at 11.

      • travellerev 41.1.1

        Get real. The most important News  issue of the last 10 years (Royal wedding included) the “death” of the “perpetrator” of 9/11, the hunt that started the killing of more than a million people in Afghanistan and Iraq and news papers throwing all their resources at to showcase this historical event and they don’t take time to check the photo proving how dead this guy is and just put up the first photo they can find because they are slack or pressed for time? Jeez, PB that is so lame.

        • rosy

          “and they don’t take time to check the photo proving how dead this guy is and just put up the first photo they can find because they are slack or pressed for time?”

          The absolute definition of churnalism – got to beat the opposition to the scoop…

          Churnalism is a form of journalism in which press releases, wire stories and other forms of pre-packaged material are used to create articles in newspapers and other news media in order to meet increasing pressures of time and cost without undertaking further research or checking.

          BBC journalist Waseem Zakir has been credited for coining the term churnalism. According to Zakir, the trend towards this form of journalism involves reporters becoming more reactive and less proactive in searching for news – “You get copy coming in on the wires and reporters churn it out, processing stuff and maybe adding the odd local quote. It’s affecting every newsroom in the country and reporters are becoming churnalists.

        • Pascal's bookie

          So what’s your theory? That all the papers with their crack teams doing full due diligence on everything all colluded to run a fake photo that’s been kicking around for years? Because Obama told them to?

          You claimed that the Gaurdian was highlighting ““obvious discrepancies in the photo’s and circumstances surrounding the “death” of uber killer Osama bin Laden.”

          Bullshit. That’s what you read into it, because that’s what you read into everything.

          • travellerev

            Here is the Daily mail adding to the fire

            • Pascal's bookie

              Daily Mail. heh.

              I believe someone mentioned right wing lunatics claiming Osama was dead years ago. Thanks for the link in support, exactly the sort of thing I was talking about.

              • The Voice of Reason

                Ah, yes, The Daily Mail. Are they also reporting how the death of OBL is affecting house prices in the South of England? Or the ski holidays of the Royals? For those who aren’t familiar with the paper, I suggest you’d get a good picture of how the Mail sees the world by looking at their most famous front page headline: Hurrah for the Blackshirts!

                “The minor misdeeds of individual Nazis would be submerged by the immense benefits the new regime is already bestowing on Germany.”

                Lord Rothermere, Publisher, 1933.

                • joe90

                  Heh…. Bin Laden is dead – who do we murder next?

                  Another thing worth considering is that Bin Laden has already been buried, within hours of his execution. Or rather his body has been dumped in the sea in order to prevent his grave becoming a shrine to his fanatical followers. This will undoubtedly be grist to the mill for the whackier conspiracy theorists.; by this time next week if not sooner there will be speculation all over the web that Bin Laden is not really dead, that he has been paid off by his masters in the Order of the Illuminati -the real perpetrators of 9/11 – having served his purpose, and helped pave the road to the New World Order.

              • Vicky32

                I believe someone mentioned right wing lunatics claiming Osama was dead years ago. Thanks for the link in support, exactly the sort of thing I was talking about.

                Oh PB, you must feel so unbearably smug and light-hearted at having your nasty little prejudices confirmed. Where on the scale of right wing lunacy would you put Benazir Bhutto hey? She said that OBL had been dead for years, just before she was assassinated.

                • Pascal's bookie

                  I wouldn’t put Bhutto on such a scale.

                  And what ‘nasty little prejudices’?

                  All I initially said about this (comment 15) was “No update yet from various right wing lunatics who claimed he was dead years ago.”

                  HS then piped up alluding to eve. I noted that I was talking about ‘right wing lunatics’ and went on to talk about who I was refering to. ie, Mark Steyn in particular, and the likes of Leeden who writes at NRO. There were many more, from memory, writing at The Washington Times and other places. Including, apparently, the Daily Mail.

  42. PB,
    If you want to believe that a crazy old guy with wonky kidney’s and diabetes living in a cave (or living amongst the living in a busy Pakistani town without anybody knowing he was there) send 19 young Saudi men to hijack 4 air planes flying two of them into two steel framed buildings collapsing three of them against all laws of Physics into their own footprint at free fall speed and meanwhile flying one of the others on the far side of the Pentagon performing a manoeuvre not even professional pilots could perform after only a couple of flying lessons and with a history of not even being able to fly a Cessna be my guest.

    • Pascal's bookie 42.1

      If you want to believe ….be my guest.

      You’re too kind.

    • Afewknowthetruth 42.2

      Well said. Travellerev

      The best kind of slave is one who thinks he/she is free.

      Anyone who believes the official story of 9/11 or this latest piece of propaganda simply demonstrates how uninformed and gullible they are.

      Unfortunately the world is full of uninformed and gullible people, who are incredibly easily manipulated by governments and advertisers; that is why we are in the mess we are in.( Of course many of them are so brainwashed they don’t even recognise we’re in a mess.)

      It is also why everything will all get much worse for ordinary people everywhere. Meanwhile, the ultra-rich elites who are controlling the game and churning out the proppaganda get wealtheir by the minute and strengthen their stranglehold on society.

      The real question is: why was this piece of propaganada put out by the Obama administration at this particular moment? I suppose we will find out some time over coming months, perhaps when the US stages the next false flag operation, maybe under the guise of revenge attacks by supporters of Bin Laden. .

    • grumpy 42.3

      ….and here I was thinking that ‘gravity” was a law of physics……

  43. randal 43

    good riddance.
    every time I saw those bodies sailing out of the WTC and splatting on the footpath I wanted to tear his bloody heart out.
    He couldnt even die right.
    he had to hide behind a woman.

  44. joe90 44

    The Arab language media are running different lines, from:.

    Google translation.

    Contrary to the story mentioned by President Obama at the announcement of the process of killing Osama bin Laden, leader of al-Qaeda, which it was stated that the process carried out by a limited number of U.S. special forces and he was not subjected them one of the ill; has reported that intelligence sources, Pakistan for lack of sincerity This novel altogether; where today’s Russia correspondent for the Pakistani intelligence sources that the two helicopters bombed two U.S. fortified palace that was home when the bin Laden, and that a missile fired from one of the planes struck the palace and drop. But the second plane had lowered a team of American commandos stormed the palace and he managed after a heavy exchange of fire, from the liquidation of bin Laden and the number of takers in the palace.
    The other media sources had talked about the downing of a U.S. helicopter during the operation, killing all on board in the process.
    On the other hand Pakistan’s Taliban movement denied the veracity of these reports; where the correspondent channel “Russia today in Islamabad that the Taliban denied the announcement made by President Barack Obama on the killing of al-Qaeda leader, and confirmed to be alive in a safe place.

    To Google translation

    London ‘Arab Jerusalem’: America months killed a man in the world, Osama bin Laden, she threw his body into the sea just as he did the pirates in a long time and they transported slaves to the New America. She was buried at sea according to Islamic law.
    This act is contrary to what France did when I took the body of Suleiman al-Halabi after executed by an ugly way to France and is still reserved his bones there in the Museum of rights in Paris, after the killing of the French ruling Kleber on Egypt during the French campaign.
    Questions answered in America in the coming days, as of now is still unfolding on the process a lot of information is what Obama said and published by the Pakistani channel Geo.
    Whatever the America you want to get rid of the bogeyman has been bin Laden, who will continue to attend until after his death, he is the man who filled the world and will continue to image the capital for generations to come, this man who dragged the largest force in the world to the wars in Iraq and Afghanistan, Osama bin Laden, would be Che Guevara Muslim , distorting his image with his own eyes, would become an icon like that picture published by the CIA to the Argentine fighter Che Guevara.
    The question now posed by the thousands for what commentators after Bin Laden? Is Al Qaeda going to die, many said it was dead for 10 years, when I came out of Tora Bora in 2001, and others said it was the idea will not end with the death of the commander was known as the end and waits. Bin Laden came after the events of September (September) awareness of the U.S. as a ‘Hitler’ or ‘Stalin’, a mass murderer, a criminal confessed that he was in a shocking and beyond the operations carried out by 19 al Qaeda members.
    For others of his followers is the idea of ​​Mujahid Islam lived and died for it, and his death will not die, the rule that are not affected by the death of its leaders. And most importantly in the story of bin Laden are pursuing long before he is a martyr’s ideas, was asked once George W. Bush, former U.S. president said he wanted bin Laden dead he replied ‘Yes, I want him dead, I want justice’, said the former president ‘There is a poster in the West bears the words: dead or alive ‘.

    Principled fighter
    The body of bin Laden in his initial image of the fighter who defended him, rightly or wrongly, thought it was the product of interaction between the thought of my predecessor, my brothers and a jihadi. Began to bin Laden, his life within the confines of a wealthy family he was born in 1957 to Saudi businessman Mohammed bin Laden, who built a large empire in Saudi Arabia, and lived his life the first of his youth in the city of Jeddah, where he completed his studies at the School of the mouth before he enters the King Abdulaziz University and completing his degree in economics.
    Bin Laden was compared with the many brothers ‘dark horse’ who refused to descend into a life of wealth and entertainment experienced by some of his brethren, and showed a tendency to condemn and influenced early ideas of the Muslim Brotherhood. According to testimony from Asroh in that period he was carrying and conscious of the importance of work and devotion to principle, even before entering the university, while studying at the School of the gap. The most important thing in the biography of bin Laden is how shy boy turned good and loving to help others and religious to the most dangerous man in the world? What are the qualities that allowed him to get to this place?
    Much has been written about bin Laden, his character and history of struggle and participation in the jihad in Afghanistan, first as a volunteer and participant in support of the mujahideen and financial training and financing, so that came to be after the death of his mentor and Sheikh Abdullah Azzam, a senior figure in al Qaeda. Usually considered to be Osama bin Laden through the lens of jihad in Afghanistan, and without consideration to the roots that girl a love of work and not inaction due despite the reference to some sources, his relationship with his father was short, where he died plane accident over difficult due to a technical error of Commander of plane the U.S. (in 1967) when in the age of nine, and then it was Osama in Lebanon, but there are sources saying that Osama son learn from his father’s charge that the work does not sit behind his desk and giving orders, but get up and visit work sites and its subsidiaries.
    As you may know of his father’s love poetry and who tried to set it at a later period. In addition to his father, he left his half-brother Salem, who ran the operations of the Kingdom of his father before he was killed in a plane crash in America and a professor of Syria at the School of the mouth, but the most important influence on its own track jihadist came from Sheikh Abdullah Azzam, who moved to the idea of ​​global jihad and the fact that Jihad, the most important tests and Senate. The known bin Laden Azzam, who studied at the University of Abdul Aziz during his studies at the university, so in 1982. Before going to Afghanistan, Azzam and creates the Office of the Mujahideen in Peshawar and bin Laden would leave the world of finance and business who went by after graduating from the university and asked him when his half-brother, Salem project management for Reconstruction campus as a way to teach methods of business management. Deny the sons of bin Laden at a later stage that Osama lived with them. Though this is true, where he lived in a place not far away from them, but he was always visit them at weekends. Know the story of bin Laden with the Afghan Jihad, who went to him ended tourists to what we know today.

    Life paths
    That tracks the life of bin Laden are well known, this man polite turned into a angry man, not a comfortable life experienced by the Saudis rich of them, but the injustice that has afflicted the Muslims everywhere, and the data shows, speeches, bin Laden developed intellectually in his knowledge and analysis, and acted at times as a statesman known politics, and addressed the fans in the camps and the language of passionate rhetoric, criticized his system, which deprived him of his passport, and interested to Palestine and criticized the Palestinian leadership.
    At the heart of the ‘equation bin Ladenism’ the criteria for America’s double, which he accused of trying to steal the sources of wealth and the imposition of the rulers of her clients in a Muslim country, and when the Arabs reject listen to what you want America whom it accuses of terrorism, he said bin Laden, the ‘when aimed at children, Palestinian stones at the occupier Israel accuses U.S. of terrorism ‘, and vice versa when hit Israel and kill children in Palestine and Lebanon do not issue a condemnation of them. Unlike the accused him of lack of knowledge and science, the data which was published in America in 2006 show an awareness of the world and experience things to know politics and religion. Has developed a rhetoric that combines a distinct concern for the classical and religious language with the addition of contemporary after her.

    Pursue long-
    Began bin Laden enters the U.S. radar after the news in 1993 when he announced the International Islamic Front for the struggle of the Zionist and Crusader in 1998, appeared in the alliance closer to the ideology of Islamic Jihad, led by Dr. Ayman al-Zawahiri, rather than closer to the Ajoanith traditional Salafism, is no longer a matter For bin Laden, Saudi Arabia Liberation of foreign forces occupied the Holy Land, but has become a global confrontation with the representative of all the forces of tyranny in America. And with him began the name of bin Laden under surveillance as a financier of global terrorism, and later established by a special unit in the CIA to keep up, and called the officer a long career in the CIA ‘North Star – the center of gravity’ of global terrorism, particularly as it united under the rule number of movements Islamic Jihad and scattered with various goals, from Egypt to Yemen, the Philippines, Pakistan, Somalia and North Africa, Chechnya and Central Asia. It is noted experts in the life of bin Laden that the terrorist came before it is state terrorism, and then turned to terrorism, supports the State any of Osama bin Laden, in a reference to support for the Taliban between the years 1996 -2001 where he arrived to the Islamic Emirate after he was forced to leave Sudan, where he stayed for investment projects and, after attempts to assassinate him and pull him to Saudi citizenship. Remained after the attacks of September the center, which was organized in which attacks on Bali, Madrid and London and different places in the world. And that Obama has stripped bin Laden’s status as a ‘good Muslim’, he and his administration do not know until today the nature of the global al Qaeda movement: how many and where its members work cells.

    Media man
    Throughout the war on terrorism, bin Laden has exhausted the efforts of Western countries which pursue and prosecute his followers scattered all over the world, who believed in his idea or did not see him personally. Has reached them, the advisory opinion and the tape, video, and electronic magazines and Web sites jihadist followers perfected to the point where a U.S. official to admit that bin Laden has the capacity to use the Internet and encrypted messages over the United States itself.
    Despite the appearance of the ascetic and the idea that prevailed for bin Laden, he was the son of billions who divorced life deposit to live in caves and caverns, but that Bin Laden in his isolation was the son of globalization, which is used for the benefit of his goals, he knew how to use the media for it and how do you choose from the corresponding media who visited him in his Btura Bora, and acted with journalists as acting executive director of a major company was required to get the questions in advance and prevented journalists from taking pictures of him and provide them with more taken by your cameraman.
    Was careful not to use technology perfected by his followers, and it seems that the absence of technology was a danger that claimed his life, that this novel proved so far about his death. Interest in the media was keen to confirm the image of the warrior, standing behind a map of the world, and who speaks a voice hoarse and quiet.

    • joe90 44.1

      (My previous post is in moderation, to long a c/p I suspect.

      edit: tried to shorten it but cant)

      And Google translation

      Azhar Sheikh: What happened with bin Laden may not be legally!

      | Last Updated: 05/02/2011 22:30Condemned the Grand Imam of Al-Tayeb Ahmed, Sheikh of Al Azhar, the media reports regarding the dumping of the body of Osama bin Laden in the sea, and emphasized that this is contrary to all religious values ​​and norms of humanitarian .. He pointed out that it is not permissible in Islamic law representation of the dead regardless of the denominations and their thoughts and attitudes Vikram Dead burial.

      Wrote: Shaimaa Mamdouh

      For more details on the Grand Imam of words .. Contacted the Youth Portal Dr. Mahmoud Abu al-Hasan Secretary General of the Islamic Research Academy and the President of the Supreme Committee for the advisory opinion of Al-Azhar previously, who confirmed that he may not take a Muslim in the sea, except in one case and the death and is at sea, provided that the distance to reach the mainland dramatically, putting body to rot in this case is the body wash and pray it is then dropped into the sea, in the case of Osama bin Laden, we find that the Americans dealt with the logic of his body does not make sense .. is not hostile to the wise never dead
      And he said: everyone knows that Islam provides for honoring the deceased in the burial and the Muslim and non-Muslims in Islamic law must be honored, and he is alive, not to insult and does not distort his face and honored at his death Baltazim and if it was a disbeliever, as passed the funeral in front of the Messenger of Allah upon him and he sat so he respects him .. She said his friends body unbeliever, and he said to them, “not the soul,” so they had to honor the body, according to the rites of Islamic law.
      And Aboul-Hassan the need to deliver the corpse to his family after the killing and said: they had to hand him over to his family until they decide their own destiny and choose his burial place and I have no credibility at all for fear of not receiving any state of the body of bin Laden and this point us we address the very strong possibility and is a deception Americans and may not kill Bin Laden .. Vchksip this particularly important for them that they must imagine and yet we did not find a true picture of bin Laden’s body .. and the story of corpse was thrown out by sea may be traded so as not to ask

  45. twgmbd 45

    Evidence from Wikileaks that the US had a very good idea as to Osama’s whereabouts back in 2008. Which begs the question why the delay?


  46. Colonial Viper 46

    Bet you that body got dumped in the sea because the US forces put a few hundred rounds into it.And worse. You’ve seen how US forces treat innocent people at Gitmo and at Abhu Graib. The shit they must have done to Bin Laden. Who knows if it was really a clean kill after just a few minutes of fighting. Or whether “enhanced interrogation” techniques were also used.

    Notice those news reports which say Osama was a coward who hid behind a woman AND the US forces would have liked to have taken him alive but he was fighting back?

    So which is true.

    I guess if that was his wife she is toast now as well. Notice there has been no mention of her now.

    Hardly matters, a little bit of classic patriotic distraction, the US is still circling closer and closer to the drain.

    Remember how life got so much better for ordinary Americans after they got Saddam?

    Generally sad, and that’s not even considering that Osama is now a martyr for muslim militants.

    • Pascal's bookie 46.1

      Who does know? No one here, so let’s speculate wildly!!

      You can google my handle and torture to get my opinions on it. As far as I’m concerned the whole lot of them should be on trial, and Obama should be impeached for failing to uphold the law.

      But that doesn’t justify flying of the handle and making shit up. How does that do anything except make your side look bad?

      There has been mention of the wife, she identified the body.

      The burial at sea is problematic, but so are all the other options.

      Islamic custom demands that the body be buried within 24 hours, failing to do so would be not only counter to US policy, but could be taken as being a direct and deliberate insult to the body. Which be a war crime, as it happens. This burial will also be propagandised by AQ, but everything will, and you have to make a choice.

      You absolutely want to avoid having a shrine to the martyr. Most countries would be reluctant to host such a shrine. Saudi Arabia disowned him years ago, and Pakistan and Afghanistan would also be unlikely to want him. Yemen might take him, but again, why create the shrine, and how would you co-ordinate getting him buried inside 24 hours?

      Historically, this sort of thing isn’t uncommon. It’s not nice, but providing shrines for martyrs is kind of stupid.

      This piece outlines what we did with those found guilty at Nuremburg, cremated them and threw them in a river.


      • Colonial Viper 46.1.1

        But that doesn’t justify flying of the handle and making shit up. How does that do anything except make your side look bad?

        Seriously? Hmmmm…maybe you want to read this


        senior administration officials sought to turn their tactical military victory into a moral one by undermining the heroic image he had long cultivated among his followers. They stressed that he had been discovered not in a remote cave, but in a mansion in a wealthy Pakistani city. They also sought to suggest that, as he tried to escape U.S. Special Operations forces, he may have used one of his wives as a shield.

        Then you said:

        There has been mention of the wife, she identified the body.

        I’d like to stress that is NOT how the US identified the body. From the above link:

        U.S. officials said DNA tests performed Monday confirmed with 99.9 percent certainty that the body removed from the one-acre compound in Abbottabad was bin Laden’s, although the administration has yet to release evidence that he is dead.

        • Pascal's bookie

          On the first, yeah, seriously.

          I would fully expect both sides to use what happened for propaganda and that’s what your quote shows.

          But that’s not the same thing as saying that you bet that the body was “dumped in the sea because the US forces put a few hundred rounds into it. And worse.”

          That’s what I was talking about with regard to making shit up.

          On the second, google the following;

          osama identified body wife

          The wife has been mentioned in plenty of news reports as having id’d the body, along with the dna. It’s simply not true that there has been no mention of her.

    • Roger 46.2

      Notice those news reports which say Osama was a coward who hid behind a woman AND the US forces would have liked to have taken him alive but he was fighting back?

      It’s funny how the story of what happened is only the American version, I guess dead people cannot refute any allegations. Naturally it feeds directly toward pro-American propaganda to make him out to be a selfish coward compared to the brave soldiers who killed him.

      Used as a human shield or was it a case of: “Soldier! Why did you shoot the women?” Response; “well…um…er…you see…I know…she was….”

      I’m glad Osama Bin Laden got what was coming to him and I commend the work of the soldiers for the risk they took but please spare us the silly stories, in rooms full of people with guns shooting at eachother unarmed people present are going to get hurt and there is going to be collateral damage. This needs to be weighed up when deciding to engage in conflict. Then again, I don’t think any truly innocent parties would really be invited into his compound.

      • Vicky32 46.2.1

        Then again, I don’t think any truly innocent parties would really be invited into his compound.

        Sorry, that’s an absurd statement! Your comment reminds me of the utterly evil Investigate editorial Ian Wishart wrote just before the illegal American invasion of Iraq. He said that he would rejoice in the deaths of Iraqis, even babies because as “they” had not overthrown Saddam Hussein, that meant that they “were not truly innocent”. To make matters worse, Wishart’s masthead picture by his egotorial showed him with his wife and new baby!
        He has never to my knowledge apologised for this editorial although even he has probably had to admit that there were no WMD and that Saddam Hussein had as much to do with 9/11 as did OBL. (Oh, but PB thinks OBL dunnit – so does my moronic niece)

  47. Vicky32 47

    This has  no doubt already been said but:

    “I mourn the loss of thousands of precious lives, but I will not rejoice in the death of one, not even an enemy. Returning hate for hate multiplies hate, adding deeper darkness to a night already devoid of stars. Darkness cannot drive out darkness: only light can do that. Hate cannot drive out hate: only love can do that.”

    –Martin Luther King, Jr

    • Vicky32 47.1

      I do not trust the edit function here (it only sometimes works) so I am replying to myself – I am reading the posts that have happened overnight, and I just have to point something out. Despite the destruction of Afghanistan, no one and especially not the FBI ever indicted OBL for 9/11! You’d have to be very gullible to believe ‘OBL’s confession video’, and the official FBI line was that 9/11 was not mentioned on OBL’s ‘wanted’ poster because they had no evidence against him for it!
      PB, I do wish you would pull your head in and stop being so shockingly rude to Eve! I know you love the sound of your own voice, but still there ought to be a limit.
      Randal, I am stunned by what you say about watching the (endlessly replayed) footage of 9/11… My son and I watched (he was still at school then) and I had a pervasive sense of unreality. But I do know that at the time, I had no thought of OBL, he wasn’t even mentioned that day. THe 10 years since have been a nightmare of confusion and fear and not knowing who or what to believe at any time. L’s high school teacher said there were “10,000 victims” and then sent the class home. Mark Bennett on Radio Pathetic (I used to listen to him then), rejoiced a few weeks later when 4000 people in Afghanistan died in an earthquake – and said he looked forward to the death of another 6000 Afghanis, to make up the numbers to the alleged 10 000 victims of 9/11…
      I was unimpressed by the ‘horror’ of the people leaping from the Trade Towers. It all seemed unreal. The hundreds of thousands of people killed in Iraq, Afghanistan and most recently Libya, more than make up for the deaths of fewer than 3000 Americans.

      • rosy 47.1.1

        The hundreds of thousands of people killed in Iraq, Afghanistan and most recently Libya, more than make up for the deaths of fewer than 3000 Americans

        I was as horrified by the deaths on 9/11 as I am by the deaths in Iraq, Afganistan and Libya. These are all crimes against innocents and each person is someone’s parent, child, colleague, etc being punished to stroke the egos of people who think they have ‘right’ on their side. None make up for the deaths of others – so what do you reckon it should it be? 1/2 a Taliban fighter for one american? or the other way how about we make it 2 Americans for every Iraqi? Sickening.

        • HC

          No they go by about 100 Afghans for every dead American.

          An Israeli General once threatened the Palestinians that every dead Israeli will be avenged 1000 fold.

          Yes, one American citizen is a heck of a lot more “worth” than an Afghan, a Palestinian, a Libyan, an Iraqi, a Pakistani and so forth. Just look at the average income per capita, that is what they tend to go by.

          • rosy

            oh so that makes it all right then – because some warmongering idiots don’t value the lives of the ‘other’ we should ignore equally-valued lives of fathers, mothers, children to their families no matter what country they’re from. Apportion blame all you like (I do), but personal grief is the same the world over.

    • Mac1 47.2

      Well said, Vicky32. I was trying to think of something like that I had heard when I found this, for a contrast.

      “So the bastard’s dead? Too bad we didn’t capture him alive!
      Said in April 1945 — Stalin, on hearing of Hitler’s suicide, as quoted in The Memoirs of Georgy Zhukov.

      Stalin also supposedly made the crack about one death being a tragedy, but a million deaths a statistic.

      None of this makes sense, but reflects humanity’s infinite capacity, even within one person’s thinking, for having opposing views, as shown in the present instance of Osama Bin Laden.

    • joe90 47.3

      I mourn the loss of thousands of precious lives, but I will not rejoice in the death of one, not even an enemy is probably a bogus quote.

  48. The Voice of Reason 48

    TV3 just apologised for running the fake Osama death photo. And I note the White House has backed away from the human shield claim. Presumably the woman was either killed accidentally in the doorway to the room bin Laden was in or she was killed while actively defending him. OBL shot twice, chest and head. That suggests more of a swat type assault than an overwhelming barrage. Pistol, rather than machine gun?

  49. GorjusGeorge 49

    And now they admit Bin Laden wasn’t armed but offered resistance so they had to shoot him. IOW a calculated execution. Love the statement that there are many ways to resist other than using a gun – I’m surprised they didn’t claim he tried to throw a wife at them – or hit them with one of his kids.

    His utility as the personification of terrorism had obviously run out – assuming of course it was him they dumped at sea – and that he ever really existed as the great terror mastermind. Oh such a story – if it was in a novel you’d think it was improbable.

    • HC 49.1

      I suppose he had bad breath from eating too much garlic, so they had to shoot him immediately to somehow stop this nasty smelling gas being emitted towards them. It was the most cunning form of resistance, hence the Navy Seals had to act resolutely. Does this not make sense and convince? I think too many do again adhere to conspiracy theories. This was a very clean and thorough, well justified action, for sure?!

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    Stuff's story on NZDF's negligence around its Afghan firing ranges has produced a result, with a commitment from the Prime Minister for an urgent cleanup. But this doesn't mean NZDF is accepting responsibility for the deaths and injuries that have occured - they're still refusing compensation. Which given that the ...
    No Right TurnBy Idiot/Savant
    2 days ago
  • A corrupt practice
    Last week RNZ broke the news on NZ First's mysterious "foundation" and its dodgy-looking loans. The arrangement seemed to be designed to evade the transparency requirements of the Electoral Act, by laundering donations. But now Stuff has acquired some of their financial records, and it gone from dodgy to outright ...
    No Right TurnBy Idiot/Savant
    2 days ago
  • Democracy “A Bit Bonkers” – Thoughts Inspired By Lizzie Marvelly’s Latest Co...
    Didn't See It Coming: NZ Herald columnist Lizzie Marvelly's latest column merits serious scrutiny because such a clear example of anti-democratic thinking is encountered only rarely on the pages of the daily press. Which is not to say that the elitism which lies at the heart of such social disparagement ...
    2 days ago
  • Colombia: historic memory, massacres and the military
    by Gearóid Ó Loingsigh Initially it was reported that in an aerial bombardment that took place on August 30th seven children were massacred; the figure then went up to eight and then on November 11th Noticias Uno reported that, according to people from the community in close proximity to the ...
    RedlineBy Admin
    2 days ago
  • On the road to Net Zero, the next step is to update our UN pledge
    A lot has happened since the UN’s report on 1.5ºC was released in October 2018. New Zealand’s Zero Carbon Bill has passed, and enshrines the 1.5ºC goal in law. The UK and France have also legally strengthened their targets to Net Zero 2050. The School Strike For Climate and Extinction ...
    SciBlogsBy Robert McLachlan
    2 days ago
  • Corruption as usual
    Next year is an election year, and Labour needs money to fund its campaign. So naturally, they're selling access:Labour is charging wealthy business figures $1500-a-head to lunch with Prime Minister Jacinda Ardern at its annual conference later this month. [...] On the weekend beginning November 29th, around 800 delegates will ...
    No Right TurnBy Idiot/Savant
    3 days ago
  • Fairer rentals
    Yesterday the government announced its changes to tenancy laws, including an end to no-cause evictions, limits on rent increases, and anonyminity for tenants who defend their rights against bad landlords (sadly necessary because landlords are scum who maintain blacklists of "uppity" tenants). They're all good moves, and have resulted in ...
    No Right TurnBy Idiot/Savant
    3 days ago
  • Another NZDF coverup
    In 2003 New Zealand sent a Provincial Reconstruction Team to Afghanistan to support America's doomed war there. While there, they conducted regular weapons practice on local firing ranges, littering the landscape with unexploded ammunition. These ranges weren't secure - they're on land used by locals for animal herding - so ...
    No Right TurnBy Idiot/Savant
    3 days ago
  • A loss for the Greens
    Green MP Gareth Hughes has announced he will retire at the election. Its understandable - he's been there ten years, and wants to actually see his children grow up rather than miss it while drowning in the toxic parliamentary sewer. But his departure is also a huge loss for the ...
    No Right TurnBy Idiot/Savant
    3 days ago
  • New era for Ngāti Kuri and Auckland Museum
    Words and images by Jacqui Gibson Gone are Auckland Museum’s days of doing science using a museum-centric academic approach, after Māori land rights holders Ngāti Kuri gave the museum an ultimatum.
    Tom Trnski holding a fossilised whale tooth from the Far North.Aussie-born Head of Natural Sciences at Auckland Museum ...
    SciBlogsBy Guest Author
    3 days ago
  • Circling vultures: Why MediaWorks TV is really in trouble
    MediaWorks announced in October 2019 that it intended to sell off its struggling television business and cancel or cut back on several popular local programmes, including New Zealand Today, Married at First Sight New Zealand and 7 Days. Its radio and outdoor advertising arms are currently performing well, but MediaWorks’ ...
    Briefing PapersBy Peter Thompson
    3 days ago
  • Scary Opinium Poll
    Westminster voting intention:CON: 44% (+3)LAB: 28% (-1)LDEM: 14% (-1)BREX: 6% (-)via @OpiniumResearch, surveyed this weekChgs. w/ 08 Nov— Britain Elects (@britainelects) 16 November 2019 This, of course, doesn't look good.  Labour have been chucking big, headline grabbing policies left, right and centre ... Well, maybe not right.  Left, left ...
    3 days ago
  • A coward’s ploy.
    Some readers may remember that I mentioned last year that I was applying for NZ citizenship. I filled out the paperwork and had my original citizenship interview in February. Everything went well until they discovered that, because I had spent five months in the US in 2017, I had not ...
    KiwipoliticoBy Pablo
    3 days ago
  • Left censorship and exclusion against gender-critical women: a Marxist critique
    by Deirdre O’Neill It is becoming quite acceptable for certain sections of the left to declare that people like me – women who are ‘gender critical’ – should not be allowed in leftist or anarchist spaces. Leaving aside the arrogance and implicit authoritarianism of this claim, its lack of critical ...
    RedlineBy Admin
    4 days ago
  • “Uncertainty” can be better solved with a better grasp of life’s inherent complexities…
    There is an article in The Conversation, written by Jeremy P. Shapiro (Adjunct Assistant Professor of Psychological Sciences, Case Western Reserve University), about what he sees as the psychologically-based underpinnings of three main matters that seem to vex people all around the planet. The article is titled “The Thinking ...
    exhALANtBy exhalantblog
    4 days ago
  • Citizens vs the Rogue Deep State
    . .   Blogger Martyn Bradbury has won his case against unreasonable search and surveillance against the NZ Police; and subsequent Police attempts to produce evidence in secrecy, in a closed Court. His case highlights a disturbing growing trend in Aotearoa New Zealand for State power to be used against ...
    Frankly SpeakingBy Frank Macskasy
    5 days ago
  • Massey University’s free speech policy double-plus-good
    The Committee of Disobedient Women has intercepted an email from Dr Emma Eejut, Senior Lecturer in Sociology, Massey University to the university’s Vice-Chancellor, Jan Thomas. Dear Jan, Thank you for your courageous move.  I think 10 pages of blether** should tie any of the students game enough to try holding ...
    RedlineBy Admin
    5 days ago
  • Unacceptable
    That's the only response to the findings of the Ombudsman's investigation into LGOIMA practices at the Christchurch City Council:My investigation identified serious concerns about the Council’s leadership and culture, and its commitment to openness and transparency. In particular, Council staff raised concerns with me about various methods employed by some ...
    No Right TurnBy Idiot/Savant
    5 days ago
  • There is what corruption looks like
    NZ First seems to be nakedly trying to enrich itself from public office:A powerful New Zealand First figure helped establish a forestry company that then pushed for money from two key funding streams controlled by a New Zealand First Minister. An RNZ investigation has found Brian Henry, lawyer for Winston ...
    No Right TurnBy Idiot/Savant
    6 days ago
  • Escape from Manus Island
    Behrouz Boochani is an award winning author and journalist. He is also a refugee, who for the past six years has been detained in Australia's offshore gulag on Manus Island, and in Papua New Guinea. But last night, with the cooperation of the WORD Christchurch festival and Amnesty International, he ...
    No Right TurnBy Idiot/Savant
    6 days ago
  • When World’s Collide.
    Different Strokes: If a multicultural immigration policy imposes no obligation on immigrant communities to acknowledge and ultimately embrace their host nation’s most cherished traditions and values, then how is that nation to prevent itself from being reduced to a collection of inward-looking and self-replicating ethnic and cultural enclaves?THE COALITION GOVERNMENT’S ...
    6 days ago
  • Could There Be Method In Massey University’s Madness?
    Protective Zone: Reading the rules and guidelines released by Massey University, it is impossible to avoid the conclusion that its governing body considers the whole concept of free speech a disruptive threat to the orderly imparting of orthodox academic knowledge.IN TRUE ORWELLIAN fashion, Massey University has announced its commitment to ...
    6 days ago
  • Climate Change: We need more trees, not less
    Farmers held a hate-march on Parliament today, complete with MAGA hats, gun-nut signs, and gendered insults. While supposedly about a grab-bag of issues - including, weirdly, mental health - it was clear that the protest was about one thing, and one thing only: climate change. And specifically, forestry "destroying" rural ...
    No Right TurnBy Idiot/Savant
    6 days ago
  • The IGIS annual report: Dead letters and secret law
    The Inspector-General of Intelligence and Security released their annual report today, and I've been busy reading through it. In amongst the usual review of what they've been doing all year, there's a few interesting bits. For example, a discussion on "agency retention and disposal of information", which points out that ...
    No Right TurnBy Idiot/Savant
    6 days ago
  • A referendum on bigotry
    The End of Life Choice Bill passed its third reading last night, 69 - 51. Thanks to a compromise with NZ First - which looks to have been necessary on the final numbers - the commencement of the bill will be subject to a referendum. Given the ugliness of the ...
    No Right TurnBy Idiot/Savant
    7 days ago
  • Political parties and GMOs: we all need to move on
    Recently more than 150 post-graduate students and young scientists presented an open letter to the Green Party via The Spinoff, encouraging them to reconsider their position on genetic modification. Their target is tackling climate change issues.[1] Can any party continue to be dismissive about genetic modification (GM) contributing to ...
    SciBlogsBy Grant Jacobs
    7 days ago
  • Class, Identity Politics and Transgender Ideology
    by Deirdre O’Neill Under Thatcher and then Blair and continuing up until our contemporary moment, the working class has seen its culture slowly and progressively destroyed. The change from an industrial society to a service society produced a marked shift in focus from the working class as the backbone of ...
    RedlineBy Admin
    1 week ago
  • Irony
    Since 2013, the Australian government has detained refugees without trial in Pacific gulags, where they are abused, tortured, and driven to suicide. The policy is not just an abuse of human rights and possible crime against humanity; it has also had a corrosive effect on the states Australia uses as ...
    No Right TurnBy Idiot/Savant
    1 week ago
  • An age of protest.
    It seems fair to say that we currently live in a problematic political moment in world history. Democracies are in decline and dictatorships are on the rise. Primordial, sectarian and post-modern divisions have re-emerged, are on the rise or have been accentuated by political evolutions of the moment such as ...
    KiwipoliticoBy Pablo
    1 week ago
  • Another captured agency
    Last month, Greenpeace head Russel Norman surrendered his speaking slot at an EPA conference to student climate activist Sorcha Carr, who told the EPA exactly what she thought of them. It was a bold move, which confronted both regulators and polluters (or, as the EPA calls them, "stakeholders") with the ...
    No Right TurnBy Idiot/Savant
    1 week ago
  • NZ First’s dodgy loans
    The core principle supposedly underlying New Zealand's electoral finance regime is transparency: parties can accept large donations from rich people wanting to buy policy, but only if they tell the public they've been bought. Most parties abide by this, so we know that TOP was wholly-owned by Gareth Morgan, and ...
    No Right TurnBy Idiot/Savant
    1 week ago
  • Member’s Day: The choice on End of Life Choice
    Today is a Member's Day, probably the second-to-last one of the year, and its a big one, with the Third Reading of David Seymour's End of Life Choice Bill. last Member's Day it was reported back from committee, after MPs voted narrowly to make it subject to a (rules TBA) ...
    No Right TurnBy Idiot/Savant
    1 week ago
  • How growth in population and consumption drives planetary change
    Climate Explained is a collaboration between The Conversation, Stuff and the New Zealand Science Media Centre to answer your questions about climate change. If you have a question you’d like an expert to answer, please send it to climate.change@stuff.co.nz The growth of the human population over the last 70 ...
    SciBlogsBy Guest Author
    1 week ago
  • The disappearing Women …
    by The Council of Disobedient Women In her excellent oral submission to the Abortion reform select committee on 31st October on behalf of Otago University’s Department of Public Health, historian and public health researcher Hera Cook stated: “We would ask that the committee not use the term ‘pregnant persons’ and ...
    RedlineBy Daphna
    1 week ago
  • “A Passage to India”: enduring art in changing times
    by Don Franks In 1957, E M Forster wrote, of his greatest work: “The India described in ‘A Passage to India’ no longer exists either politically or socially. Change had begun even at the time the book was published ( 1924) and during the following quarter of a century it ...
    RedlineBy Daphna
    1 week ago
  • Contemptuous
    The Referendums Framework Bill was due back from select committee today. But there's no report on it. Instead, the bill has been bounced back to the House under Standing order 29593) because the Committee didn't bother to produce one. They probably tried. But given the membership of the committee (which ...
    No Right TurnBy Idiot/Savant
    1 week ago
  • Zero Carbon: It’s not just a good idea, it’s the law
    Two years into New Zealand’s Labour-led government, the long-delayed Zero Carbon Bill became law on 7 November. Passed essentially unanimously, the lengthy public debates and political manoeuvring faded away until the final passage was even anticlimactic: Flipping through the @nzstuff @DomPost I was starting to wonder if I’d dreamt ...
    SciBlogsBy Robert McLachlan
    1 week ago
  • Climate Change: What happens next?
    Now the Zero Carbon Bill is law, what's next? Obviously, the ETS changes currently before select committee are going to be the next battleground. But we're also going to get a good idea of where we're going, and if the progress the Zero Carbon Act promises is good enough, during ...
    No Right TurnBy Idiot/Savant
    1 week ago
  • Climate change will fuel bush fires
    Grant Pearce The effects of the current Australian bushfires in New South Wales and Queensland (and also again in California) are devastating and far-reaching. To date, the fires have resulted in several lives being lost and many homes and properties destroyed. Here in New Zealand, the impacts have been only ...
    SciBlogsBy Guest Author
    1 week ago
  • Participation rates
    A passing comment in a post the other day about the labour force participation rates of older people prompted me to pull down the fuller data and see what we could see about various participation rates over the decades since the HLFS began in 1986.   As it happens, the ...
    SciBlogsBy Michael Reddell
    1 week ago
  • Not So Much “OK Boomer” As “OK Ruling Class”.
    Distract And Divert: The rise of what we have come to call “Identity Politics” represents the ideological manifestation of the ruling class’s objective need to destroy class politics, and of the middle-class’s subjective need to justify their participation in the process.THE RELIEF of the ruling class can only be imagined. ...
    1 week ago
  • Asking for it …
    "I saw a newspaper picture,From the political campaignA woman was kissing a child,Who was obviously in pain.She spills with compassion,As that young child'sFace in her hands she gripsCan you imagine all that greed and avariceComing down on that child's lips?" ...
    1 week ago
  • New Zealand’s Poor Pandemic Preparedness According to the Global Health Security Index
    Dr Matt Boyd, Prof Michael Baker, Prof Nick Wilson The Global Health Security Index which considers pandemic threats has just been published. Unfortunately, NZ scores approximately half marks (54/100), coming in 35th in the world rankings – far behind Australia. This poor result suggests that the NZ Government needs to ...
    SciBlogsBy Public Health Expert
    1 week ago
  • Climate Change: Thank Winston
    The Zero Carbon Act is inadequate, with a weak methane target designed to give farmers a free ride. But it turns out it could have been worse: Climate Change Minister James Shaw was so desperate to get National on board, he wanted to gut that target, and leave it in ...
    No Right TurnBy Idiot/Savant
    1 week ago
  • Illicit markets and Bali Booze
    The Herald reprints an Australian story on a couple of tragic deaths in Bali from drinking cocktails that had methanol in them.  The story argues that methanol is likely the result of home distillation. But what the young tourists were experiencing was far from a hangover. They’d consumed a toxic cocktail ...
    SciBlogsBy Eric Crampton
    1 week ago
  • This is not what armed police are for
    Last month, the police announced a trial of specialist roaming armed units, which would drive round (poor, brown) areas in armoured SUVs, armed to the teeth. When they announced the trial, they told us it was about having armed police "ready to attend major incidents at any time if needed". ...
    No Right TurnBy Idiot/Savant
    1 week ago
  • Spain’s failed electoral gamble
    Spain went to the polls today in the second elections this year, after the Socialists (who had come to power in a confidence vote, then gone to the polls in April) rejected the offer of a coalition with the left-wing PoDemos, and instead decided to gamble n a better outcome ...
    No Right TurnBy Idiot/Savant
    1 week ago
  • The astroturf party
    National has finally rolled out its "BlueGreen" astroturf party, fronted by an array of former nats and people who were dumped by the Greens for not being Green enough. Its initial pitch is described by Stuff as "very business-friendly", and its priorities are what you'd expect: conservation, predator-free funding, a ...
    No Right TurnBy Idiot/Savant
    1 week ago
  • How to cheat at university
    A couple of days ago I attended (and spoke at) the University of Waikato’s “LearnFest” event. There were lots of talks and sessions on very diverse aspects of teaching, mostly at tertiary level. One was by Myra Williamson from Te Piringa Faculty of Law here at Waikato, on Contract Cheating ...
    SciBlogsBy Marcus Wilson
    1 week ago
  • How NZ was put on world maps using a transit of Mercury
    There will be a transit of Mercury – the planet Mercury will pass across the face of the Sun – taking place at sunrise in New Zealand on Tuesday, 12th November. It was by observing such an event 250 years ago that James Cook and his scientist colleagues were able ...
    SciBlogsBy Duncan Steel
    1 week ago
  • Georgina Beyer: We need to be able to talk without being offended
    Since becoming the world’s first openly transexual mayor and member of parliament, Georgina Beyer has been recognised as a trailblazer for trans rights. Daphna Whitmore talks with her about where she sees the current trans movement We start out talking about legislation the government put on hold that would have ...
    RedlineBy Daphna
    1 week ago
  • The anti-fluoride brigade won’t be erecting billboards about this study
    If FFNZ really put their faith in “Top Medical Journals” they would now be amending their billboards to recognise new research results. Image from FFNZ but updated to agree with the latest research. ...
    2 weeks ago
  • Chosen To Rule? What Sort Of Christian Is Chris Luxon?
    National Messiah? Chris Luxon identifies himself as an evangelical Christian. If he is genuine in this self-characterisation, then he will take every opportunity his public office provides to proselytise on behalf of his faith. He will also feel obliged to bear witness against beliefs and practices he believes to be ...
    2 weeks ago
  • War of the worms
    I'm going to make a Reckless Prediction™ that the Tories have 'topped out' in the 'poll of polls' / Britain Elects multipoll tracker at about 38%, and in the next week we will start to see Labour creep up on them.In fact, we might just be seeing the start of ...
    2 weeks ago
  • Marvelly shows us how to be a feminist without feminism
    by The Council of Disobedient Women Lizzie Marvelly: “I may have missed this… has @afterellen gone all terf-y? Or am I reading something incorrectly? “ https://twitter.com/LizzieMarvelly/status/1191840059105742849 After Ellen is a lesbian website that is unashamedly pro-lesbian, as you’d expect. So why is Ms Marvelly so bothered about lesbians having their ...
    RedlineBy Daphna
    2 weeks ago
  • Out of the past – Tories to revive racist laws from the 16th century
    Did you know there once was a time when it was illegal to be a gypsy (aka Romani) in Britain?That was between 1530, when the Egyptians Act was passed, and 1856, when it was repealed.Amongst other things, the act forbade the entry of 'Egyptians' into England, ordered those already there ...
    2 weeks ago
  • 1000 of these now
    Some days I sit and think, “what will I write…?” What do you say when you get to 1000 posts? Maybe you just start where you are, diverge to where this all began, then offer a collection of reader’s favourite posts, and a few of your own? (And throw in ...
    SciBlogsBy Grant Jacobs
    2 weeks ago
  • Has Shane Jones Just Saved NZ First?
    Counter-Puncher: The “activists” and “radicals” (his own words) from the Indian community who took such strong exception to Shane Jones’ remarks about Immigration NZ’s treatment of arranged marriages, may end up bitterly regretting their intervention. Jones is not the sort of person who turns the other cheek to his critics.SHANE ...
    2 weeks ago
  • Climate Change: As predicted
    Yesterday, when National voted for the Zero Carbon Bill, I predicted they'd gut it the moment they regained power, just as they had done to the ETS. And indeed, they have explicitly promised to do exactly that within their first hundred days in office. What would their amendments do? Abandon ...
    No Right TurnBy Idiot/Savant
    2 weeks ago
  • Let this never be forgot
    In the spirit of Remember, remember the fifth of November, let's keep this in mind FOREVER.
    Oh dear. Extraordinary interview on PM with Andrew Bridgen and @EvanHD just now. Bridgen was defending Jacob Rees Mogg’s Grenfell comments. Evan asked him if JRM had meant to say he would have left ...
    2 weeks ago
  • Too Late To Change Capitalism’s Flightpath?
    Collision Course? In conditions of ideological white-out, the international bankers’ “Woop-Woop! Pull Up!” warning may have come too late to save global capitalism.WHAT DOES IT MEAN when international bankers are more willing to embrace radical solutions than our politicians and their electors? At both the International Monetary Fund and the ...
    2 weeks ago
  • Whooping cough vaccine works well despite its imperfections
    Pertussis (whooping cough) is a conundrum. It is a disease that was described hundreds of years ago and the bacteria that causes it (Bordetella pertussis) isolated in 1906. We have had vaccines for about 80 years but this disease is defiant in the face of human immunity. I wanted to ...
    SciBlogsBy Helen Petousis Harris
    2 weeks ago
  • Climate Change: Passed
    The Zero Carbon Bill has just passed its third reading, uanimously. In the end, National supported it - but we all know they'll turn around and gut it the moment they regain power. Meanwhile, I guess ACT's David Seymour didn't even bother to show up. I am on record as ...
    No Right TurnBy Idiot/Savant
    2 weeks ago
  • Retailing of vaping products – New NZ Research
    Dr Lindsay Robertson, Dr Jerram Bateman, Professor Janet Hoek Members of the public health community hold divergent views on how access to vaping products or electronic nicotine delivery systems (ENDS) products should be arranged. Some believe ENDS should be as widely available as smoked tobacco and argue for liberal ...
    SciBlogsBy Public Health Expert
    2 weeks ago
  • Justice for Bomber
    When the Police were trying to cover up for the National Party over Dirty Politics, they went all-in with their abuses of power. They illegally search Nicky Hager's house, violating his journalistic privilege and invading his privacy. They unlawfully acquired Hager's bank records. They did the same to left-wing blogger ...
    No Right TurnBy Idiot/Savant
    2 weeks ago
  • Britain’s climate tyranny was unlawful
    Last month, in response to a wave of protests by Extinction Rebellion, the British government purported to ban their protests from the whole of London. It was a significant interference with the freedoms of expression and assembly, and another sign of the country's decline into tyranny. But now, a court ...
    No Right TurnBy Idiot/Savant
    2 weeks ago

  • Cowboy clampers will be stymied
    Clayton Mitchell, Spokesperson for Consumer Affairs The ‘wheel clamping’ Bill that will cap clamper fees to $100 passed its third reading in Parliament today. New Zealand First welcomes The Land Transport (Wheel Clamping) Amendment Bill to combat predatory wheel clamping behaviour in what is currently a largely unregulated business. Cowboy clampers are: gouging ...
    15 hours ago
  • Mental Health Commission back on track
    Jenny Marcroft, Spokesperson for Health New Zealand First welcomes the passage of the Mental Health and Wellbeing Commission Bill through its first reading in Parliament. “Today’s progress takes serious action on the mental health and addiction crisis the country is facing,” says New Zealand First Health Spokesperson Jenny Marcroft. “The re-establishment ...
    15 hours ago
  • New Zealand’s key assets are not for sale: national interest test delivered
    Mark Patterson, Spokesperson for Primary Industries Today the Government announced the delivery of the promise to protect New Zealand interests by applying a new National Interest Test to the sales of our most sensitive and high risk assets to overseas buyers. This further strengthening of the Overseas Investment Act will ...
    1 day ago
  • National interest test added to protect New Zealanders’ interests
    The Coalition Government is delivering on its promise to protect New Zealanders’ interests by applying a new national interest test to the sales of our most sensitive and high-risk assets to overseas buyers. Under current Overseas Investment Act (OIA) rules, assets such as ports and airports, telecommunications infrastructure, electricity and ...
    1 day ago
  • Electoral law breach allegations
    Rt Winston Peters, Leader of New Zealand First Allegations raised this morning by Stuff Limited / Fairfax concern a party matter but I am confident that New Zealand First has operated within electoral laws, now and for the last 27 years. Declarable donations were declared to the Electoral Commission. Our ...
    1 day ago
  • Wayne Brown hits back at critics: Ports of Auckland has to move
    The chairman of the Upper North Island Supply Chain Strategy (UNISCS) working group, Wayne Brown, has hit back at critics of his group’s recommendations to relocate the Ports of Auckland cargo operations to Whangarei’s deepwater port of Northport. The working group's recommendation to close Auckland waterfront to all but cruise ...
    2 days ago
  • Week That Was: Supporting our schools
    We're setting our young people up for success, investing in education around the country.  ...
    3 days ago
  • Kiwis to have their say on End of Life Choice
    Jenny Marcroft MP, Spokesperson for Health New Zealand First backs the public to decide on the End of Life Choice Bill via a referendum at the 2020 General Election. The Bill, with New Zealand First’s referendum provision incorporated, passed its final reading in Parliament this evening. New Zealand First Spokesperson for ...
    7 days ago
  • Addressing miscarriages of justice
    Darroch Ball, Spokesperson for Justice New Zealand First is proud that a key Coalition Agreement commitment which will provide for a more transparent and effective criminal justice system has been realised. Legislation to establish the Criminal Cases Review Commission, an independent body focused on identifying and responding to possible miscarriages of ...
    1 week ago
  • Week That Was: Historic action on climate change
    "Today we have made a choice that will leave a legacy... I hope that means that future generations will see that we, in New Zealand, were on the right side of history." - Jacinda Ardern, Third Reading of the Zero Carbon Bill ...
    2 weeks ago
  • Tax-free deployments for Kiwi troops
    Darroch Ball, New Zealand First List MP A Member’s bill has been proposed that would provide income tax exemptions for all New Zealand Defence Force (NZDF) personnel while on operational deployment overseas. The Income Tax (Exemption for Salary or Wages of NZDF Members on Active Deployment) Amendment Bill proposed by New Zealand First ...
    2 weeks ago
  • A balanced Zero Carbon Bill passed
    Rt Hon Winston Peters, New Zealand First Leader New Zealand First is proud to have brought common sense to the Climate Change Response (Zero Carbon) Amendment Bill, which passed its final reading in Parliament today. Party Leader Rt Hon Winston Peters says months of hard work went into negotiating a balanced ...
    2 weeks ago
  • Paramedics’ status to be recognised
    Jenny Marcroft MP, Spokesperson for Health New Zealand First has listened to calls to recognise paramedics as registered health professionals under the Health Practitioners’ Competence Assurance Act (the Act). Today, the Coalition Government announced plans for paramedics to be registered as health practitioners under the Act, and the establishment of a ...
    2 weeks ago
  • Week That Was: 2,000 teachers in two years
    We began the week by commemorating the New Zealand Wars and celebrating a major increase in the number of teachers. Then, we were busy supporting offenders into work and getting our rail back on track after years of underinvestment. And that's just the start! ...
    3 weeks ago
  • Winning an election one conversation at a time
    In October I was sworn in as the Mayor of Lower Hutt. It’s the privilege of my life to serve Hutt people as their Mayor. There is something really special to be able to serve the community where I was raised, and where I live.   ...
    3 weeks ago

  • APEC 2021 Bill passes first reading
    Foreign Affairs Minister Winston Peters has welcomed the first reading of the Asia Pacific Economic Cooperation 2021 (APEC 2021) Bill in Parliament today. The temporary bill supports New Zealand’s security preparations for hosting the Asia Pacific Economic Cooperation (APEC) Forum in 2021. “APEC is the leading economic and trade forum ...
    BeehiveBy beehive.govt.nz
    7 hours ago
  • Making progress for our kids
    The Government is making progress on improving the wellbeing of the one million New Zealanders under the age of 18,” Prime Minister Jacinda Ardern said on World Children’s Day. The Government has today recommitted to the most widely ratified human rights treaty in history – the United Nation’s Convention on ...
    BeehiveBy beehive.govt.nz
    13 hours ago
  • Māori women in business contribute to our economy, whānau and communities
    Minister for Women Julie Anne Genter has released a new report celebrating the contribution of Māori women in business across Aotearoa New Zealand. “Māori women are leaders in our communities, they employ many people and support our economy and our communities,” Julie Anne Genter said. The report, Ngā wāhine kaipakihi: ...
    BeehiveBy beehive.govt.nz
    13 hours ago
  • Two schools on the way for Omokoroa
    Four parcels of land have been bought in Omokoroa, in the Western Bay of Plenty District, for an education facility that will accommodate both a primary and secondary school on a campus-like facility, Education Minister Chris Hipkins said today. Two parcels were acquired from private land owners and two were ...
    BeehiveBy beehive.govt.nz
    15 hours ago
  • Families Package helps over 1 million New Zealanders in first year
    1 million New Zealanders warmed by the Winter Energy Payment 36,000 families bank the Best Start Payment in first year 6,000 more families received the Family Tax Credit, 220,600 in total   They receive an increase too – from an average of $117 to $157 a week for Inland Revenue clients, ...
    BeehiveBy beehive.govt.nz
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  • Clamp down on wheel clamping passes third reading
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