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Terrorist attack in New Lynn

Written By: - Date published: 5:44 pm, September 3rd, 2021 - 132 comments
Categories: crime, police, terrorism - Tags:

This year just got more incredible.

News broke this afternoon of an attack at Countdown Lynnmall where the assailant was shot and six people injured, three critically.  Jacinda Ardern and Police Commissioner have just given a stand up conference and have advised that the assailant was ISIS inspired.

He was a known threat and was under monitoring.  He was shot by a police tactical unit who had been following him as a matter of course.

Ardern indicated he had been under surveillance since 2016.

More to follow.

Update:

 

132 comments on “Terrorist attack in New Lynn ”

  1. georgecom 2

    I sincerely wish all those who were injured a safe and full recovery. Thanks to the police who intervened and ensured no further people were injured and to those who have been watching the POS since whenever. Thanks also to the health professionals who are caring for the injured.

    A few thoughts though. Why was the POS in this case too cowardly to go to Syria and fight for ISIS. Why was the POS from Christchurch too cowardly to go to Syria and fight against ISIS. That is the best ever thing they could have done and with some luck both died there. What gives these 2 POS, and any other like them, the idea that they have the right to come to our country and commit atrocities like they have. Anyone who holds similar views to the 2 POS, do us all a favour, f off to a country where there is a war and get yourselves shot there.

    Finally, Cuba has a law on it's books which allows someone to be jailed for Amenaza, loosely translated posing a menace or dangerousness to society. It has been used for political purposes in that country. The 2 POS referred to above certainly qualify in my mind for a law such as that.

  2. McFlock 3

    As if Aucklanders don't have enough on their plate. That sucks.

    • Anne 3.1

      Ahh well McFlock, it does take our minds off how hard done by we Aucklanders have been feeling these past two weeks. sad

      No disrespect to those directly affected – especially the innocent shoppers who found themselves in the firing line. The psychological scars at the least will be with them forever.

    • weka 3.2

      that's the benefit for the terrorist 🙁

  3. bwaghorn 4

    collins and seymor will be grandstanding and blaiming Ardern for letting this happen even though he was under surveillance by tomorrow night,

    • Anne 4.1

      It's all a big mess bwaghorn. That's what Judy said on TV tonight. A BIG MESS. frown

    • mickysavage 4.2

      Not that I want them to follow this advice but I think they should keep right away from it. The security problem has existed during both parties rule. I can't see any good political angle here.

    • Ghostwhowalksnz 4.3

      The obvious answer is the POLICE WATCHING him 'let it happen', not the PM

  4. Janet 5

    “The man police shot dead in an Auckland supermarket today after stabbing several shoppers is a known Isis sympathiser whom police had previously arrested for allegedly planning a "lone wolf" knife attack.

    He had only recently been released from prison and was under constant surveillance from police, including an armed tactical team, and national security agencies.

    Why had he not been deported from NZ before now.

    • Pete 5.1

      Probably not deported from NZ because of his citizenship status. Should citizenship laws/rules be re-written?

    • Why had he not been deported from NZ before now.

      If he's a NZ citizen, he can't be deported. If he's a Sri Lankan citizen with permanent residency, it's quite likely unsafe to deport him because the Sri Lankan govt doesn't fuck around when it comes to Muslim terrorists.

      • Ghostwhowalksnz 5.2.1

        All reports say hes a Sri Lankan national who arrived in 2011.

        Hes been under investigation or tried since around 2016 or so. No way would he have been given citizenship, doubtfull even had residency.

        • Ghostwhowalksnz 5.2.1.1

          Just searched the Immigration and Protection Tribunal decisions database for Sri Lankan nationals.

          The there seems to be a number of decisions in the right time frame that are supressed due to appeals.

        • Psycho Milt 5.2.1.2

          So it's likely the second one – not safe to deport him back to Sri Lanka. I can't imagine the answer to the question could be "It didn't occur to anyone to try and deport him," or "they couldn't be arsed," or "they wanted to give him a fighting chance to kill NZers."

          • bwaghorn 5.2.1.2.1

            Ummm the guys dead, (cant say I'll lose sleep) how could sending him back been worse, ?

            • Robert Guyton 5.2.1.2.1.1

              Because it would set a precedent and others could be sent "back" and be freer to cause harm on a global scale because they aren't monitored at home and those might not, in fact, cause any harm here? It's a vexed issue.

            • Psycho Milt 5.2.1.2.1.2

              The law deals with principles, not tactical contingencies. Either it's OK to deport someone to a country that will mistreat them, or it isn't. Either it's OK to deport a known extremist to a country that won't monitor his activities, or it isn't. There is no "Yeah, but this guy…"

              • Ghostwhowalksnz

                Mistreat him ?

                If he was doing what he did here, openly following a terrorist entity, talking about attacking non believers with knives ( which he has in possesion) then surely the laws in Sri Lanka could be used against him.

                He would have had to face the consequences of his actions and threats and if thats in jail or worse ( capital punishment) in Sri Lanka so be it.

                • Robert Guyton

                  I didn't mean he'd be mistreated, I meant he might be free to create greater harm in a country that doesn't monitor as closely as we do. He'd, for example, be able to associate with other like-minded individuals, have access to networks not available here etc.
                  In other words, tossing him out of NZ because he’s a threat to us, might cause far greater harm somewhere else on the planet (and New Zealanders live in other parts of the world, as do other humans.

                  • Ghostwhowalksnz

                    This would be Sri Lanka…I doubt there could be greater harm from one deportee compared to what they have been through for a long time.

                    We wouldnt be sending him to Luxembourg.

                • Yes, mistreat him. In this instance, the Sri Lankan govt is known to have been involved in torture, arbitrary imprisonment and extrajudicial executions of opponents. As mentioned above, it's either OK to deport someone to a country that will mistreat them, or it isn't. As far as I'm aware, NZ govt is in the "isn't" camp.

      • left for dead 5.2.2

        Stop the hand wringing,Milt.So what about other countrys, they should be able to deal with as they see fit,is OK that our Police force have to go around using deadly force because of that bad acters from other Gov't.

      • Ross 5.2.3

        NZ citizens can be deported and 15 were deported between 2012 and 2019.

        “3.29
        It is hard for a person to lose citizenship once they have it. An adult who becomes a citizen in another country can choose to give up New Zealand citizenship. There is a formal process to control how this step is taken. Otherwise, the Minister can remove a person's citizenship only if the Minister is satisfied that:

        • as an adult, a person has effectively taken on the citizenship or nationality of another country and "acted in a matter contrary to the interests of New Zealand"; or
        • a person was granted citizenship under the Act as a result of fraud or mistake.”

        https://oag.parliament.nz/2013/citizenship/part3.htm

  5. Dogma 6

    Can't deport him, can't send him to jail but he is known to the PM and has 4 armed officers following him. Labour don't want 501 legislation and want to reduce the prison population.

    what a f up for the government. Election please

    • Barfly 6.1

      DNFTT

    • Morrissey 6.2

      … want to reduce the prison population.

      Anyone with a conscience thinks that the prison population should be drastically reduced. With the eventual aim, of course, of abolishing that wretched and brutalising institution.

      what a f up for the government.

      The government knew he was going to attack people this afternoon, did it? From where did you obtain that intelligence?

      Election please

      I think that's the last thing the beleaguered Judith Collins and her Nasty Party colleagues would want right now. wink

    • Ghostwhowalksnz 6.3

      "Five years later, in 2016 he was warned by the police after posting material on the internet.

      'In 2017, he was arrested at the airport after telling a person at an Auckland mosque he wanted to go to Syria'

      'In 2018, he admitted charges of distributing material and the offensive weapon charge was dropped.

      Police wanted to charge him with engaging in a terrorist act by “planning or otherwise preparing to cause the death of, or serious bodily injury to one or more persons”.

      Justice Downs questioned whether planning or preparing an attack constituted a terrorist act..

      https://www.stuff.co.nz/national/crime/300399197/why-supermarket-terror-attacker-wasnt-charged-under-terror-laws-despite-being-on-watchlist

    • Anne 6.4

      Stupid twat Dogma. He spent 6 years living under the Key government and 4 years under the current government. He went on the terror watch list a year or two before Ardern became PM so… if anyone is to blame its the Nat. Govt.

      In reality neither are to blame but obviously reality is something you don't have the grey matter to comprehend.

    • Tricledrown 6.5

      John Key would have been made aware of this as well 2016.

  6. mickysavage 8

    I suspect that there are a number of political staffers working overtime trying to work out how to present views. I get the feeling the Crown's attempt to lift suppression orders is causing some nervousness. Meanwhile on twitter a whole lot of limited follower accounts with numbers at the end of their names have appeared.

    • Ghostwhowalksnz 8.1

      Kiwiblog ….

      Quick to judge and blame the gun buybacks ‘not working’
      Complete fools

      • mickysavage 8.1.1

        I just had a look. Fark …

      • lprent 8.1.2

        Generally not the greatest of thinkers at kiwiblog. Like someone would be wandering Lynnmall with a semiautomatic weapon or a pump action shotgun or a pistol in the middle of a west Auckland shopping mall and could use it to defend anyone.

        The Avondale police or the AOS would rightly consider any such ‘hero’ to be a problem and probably shoot them, or if they survived – charge them, convict them, and throw them in jail.

        As group they really are as thick as two short planks at Kiwiblog. The people who exhibit actual logic are few and far between

        • alwyn 8.1.2.1

          ". Like someone would be wandering Lynnmall with a semiautomatic weapon or a pump action shotgun or a pistol in the middle of a west Auckland shopping mall and could use it to defend anyone."

          The picture at the top of this post shows just such a person. In fact he appears to be carrying two of the three weapons you mention. Are you saying that his actions are futile.

          • Psycho Milt 8.1.2.1.1

            It shows someone who just happened to be wandering around Lynnmall with those weapons? Are you sure about that?

            • alwyn 8.1.2.1.1.1

              "who just happened to be wandering around". Am I sure of that? Of course not. I never made the statement though did I? Someone else did say something similar but it wasn't me. Stop trying to put words in my mouth.

              • McFlock

                Stop trying to put words in my mouth.

                Nobody did that. But folks seem to have foolishly assumed that the words that come out of your computer have some relevance to the words you quote at the beginning of your comment.

          • North 8.1.2.1.2

            You OK Alwyn ? Being blind to context and all that.

        • left for dead 8.1.2.2

          Iprent You can be a nasty bastard sometimes,not a daily blog reader. with all due respect,Al

          • lprent 8.1.2.2.1

            What does Kiwiblog have to do with The Daily Blog? Nothing I hope.

            I seldom read the daily blog since Bomber asked me to remove it from the Feeds list years ago. It tended to be repetitive and rather boring with some of the authors (bomber in particular). I used to scan the listing and mostly just read the authors whose opinions were worth thinking about. I'd also sample the repetitive authors sometimes to see if I was still correctly guessing what they'd say. Once the listing was gone, then there wasn't an easy way to scan for content worth perusing with my limited time.

            Same problem underlying problems with kiwiblog. It was too easy to guess what David Farrar would say next. Too easy to predict the general structure of any 'debate'. About the only thing of interest was predicting how long it would be before any well-argued contrarian opinions would get hidden. I don't think I have looked at KB in the last 6 months.

            Incidentally I do the same thing with TV. Guessing the arc of a storyline from early on in a movie or TV series and then matching it with the book or other media that the script-writers plagiarised it from.

            It isn't so much that I'm nasty (although I get quite irritated with repetitive bullshit), it is that I don't really have any time nor inclination to expand out other peoples assertions enough to point to the completely obvious flaws in their well-known arguments in a nice way.

            Which is what my comment did in a sufficient and irritated way.

            • left for dead 8.1.2.2.1.1

              lprent Thanks for the reply,yes wrong blog(mind you me neither),and thanks again for clarification,you are doing good keeping this site up and running,cheers Al

    • Janet 8.2

      The 2020 annual report of the Security Intelligence Service (SIS) said: "During the past year, between 30 and 50 individuals have been under active investigation by the NZSIS in relation to violent extremism at any one time."

      Every one of these, unless they were born in NZ , should be deported back to wherever they came from.

      It is clear we are starting to reap what we have sown” with the kind of immigration we opened up/allowed over the last more than 15 years.

      • Hongi Ika 8.2.1

        Obviously we haven't imported a very good class of people, who background checks these people b4 they come into the country ?

        • Macro 8.2.1.1

          What makes you think that these extremists under surveillance are all immigrants? The only thing that these extremists, share is that they hold extremist views and are so obsessive and fanatical that they are out of touch with reality.

  7. aj 9

    Any person who think's it a great idea to go to a supermarket on a Friday afternoon, grab a knife and start stabbing people at random has mental problems. You can cloak that in ideology, that's fine, but that is not the act of a mentally well person. The humanity of the person has been poisoned. Brevik the same. What's his name in CHCH likewise. Ad Infinitum.

    • Ghostwhowalksnz 9.1

      More of a cold blooded killer , than someone who fits into the mental health spectrum.

      I think you are using the term too loosely…. and wrongly implicating an 'illness' at the core of his beliefs.

      • aj 9.1.1

        Probably. It angers me. The older I get the more difficultly I have handling mans inhumanity to man.

    • McFlock 9.3

      Dunno about that one – there's probably a line between being unwell to the point it degrades your ability to know whether an action is right or wrong, and a deep political belief or hatred that skews or overrules your ethical calculations.

      That having been said, being personally followed constantly by armed police for 4 or 5 years, even in L4 when they'd stick out like a sore thumb? That wouldn't help anyone's noggin.

      • aj 9.3.1

        Only been followed since his recent release from custody, by my read.

        • McFlock 9.3.1.1

          fair enough – still early days in the information. Some reports were even saying the first people he attacked were the officers following him.

    • Anker 9.4

      aj they may have a mental problem, but the law has a really tight definition around criminal acts and mental illness.

      If a defendent was so out of touch with reality at the time of the crime i.e. psychotic and believing their delusions or the voices in their head telling them to kill people, then their lawyer will plead not guitly by reason of insanity. Usually when this is the case and it is a geniune plea the crown lawyers agree and that person is sentenced to a secure mental health facility.

      Otherwise, even if you have mental health problems, if you are not out of touch with reality, then you are responsibile for your actions.

      The guy in Dunedin and the Isis supporter today are likely to have a very different profile. I don't know a lot about the psychology of terrorists. but there will be a unique way of conceptualizing them, in part to help us understand how come they become like this

      • McFlock 9.4.1

        Years (post 2001, but before 2010) ago at a foreign policy thinkfest I sat through some yank talking about a new word he'd developed to describe "extremist" beliefs (guess which religion he fixated on) as a pseudo-mental disorder. The word was Greek and everything lol.

        To me it seemed like a large amount of effort just to avoid considering their actual motivations. Not sure any of the people in the room saw any useful application for it, either.

        • Anker 9.4.1.1

          Arh yes….people and their psychological hypothesis that have not be tested…..

          I doubt that pseudo mental disorder is in DSM 5, even as a disorder that warrents further. study.

          But I know very little about the psychological profiles of terrorists. I imagine they have excessively rigid all or nothing thinking, lack of empathy, and intense loyalty to a political cause. With white supremiscists hard to imagine there isn't a good deal of narcissim "thinks they should only associate with "special people" and either idealizes or devalues others………but I am only speculating here.

          • Anne 9.4.1.1.1

            Narcissism and psychopathy are hall-marks of terrorists be they of the right or the left.

          • McFlock 9.4.1.1.2

            For some, sure – the Norwegian dick comes to mind as being narcissistic and insecure, apparently he'd had a fair bit of plastic surgery and was incredibly image conscious.

            But terrorism is a big field – crusaders, screwed up teens, mercenaries, people avenging family or personal trauma, and so on. Some are pretty sad characters.

            The largest change in recent years, I suspect, is that a lot of the support pyramid is distributed online rather than personal contact. And that also involves the preparation of individuals.

            Basically, there's a pyramid model of terrorism, where the actual terrorists are the pointy top, immediate logistics, commanders, training etc are just below, then there's less direct support in the community (money, resources, propaganda, recruitment to non-terrorist but allied political orgs), and then finally just the community perception – are these good guys or bad guys. So someone in the community might be identified as sympathetic, asked to help in a little way, and then there's a program of escalation, rewards for achievement, reinforcement that they're doing the right thing, and so on right up to when the recruit is at the pointiest end of the pyramid.

            Nowadays a lot of the immaterial support comes online, so isolation helps escalate the motivations for actual murder.

            And then there are the precipitating events that help motivate someone to put their fantasies into action – close people dying, redundancy/stress, that sort of thing.

            Only 2-5% of people are actually able to kill without conscience, but the other bit of that is that almost anyone can be built up to kill with the right preparation and methodical psychological conditioning (in all senses of the word).

    • Why at that moment did he grab a knife at the supermarket ? Something he saw, heard, smelt triggered it, some remembered insult or snub or fear or grief, perhaps inherited. Was he acting reflexively or with the will to defend himself ? If the police had disabled him and preserved his life and he had lived to testify I might have got answers to at least some of my questions. Where do I look for answers now ?

      • Anker 9.5.1

        I think Grafton Gully there is likely a well formuated body of literature on terrorists.

        • Ghostwhowalksnz 9.5.1.1

          Yes. His ideation was centered on knives and murdering people. yes really.

          He was reported as telling a jury…Take one knife off me and Ill get 5 more.

          • Anker 9.5.1.1.1

            I don't doubt that he had homicidal ideation ghost. As I said I am not an expert in terrorists. But it sounds like he had homicidal ideation for sometime

    • roblogic 9.6

      Or he's just an evil scumbag who loves violence – – no need to stigmatise mental illness.

  8. I'd say that a judge will be working tomorrow to hear appeals from the Government and the MSM.

    Look for an amendment to the name suppression part of the Criminal Procedure Act 2011 sometime in the future.

    Can refugees be deported?

    • Ghostwhowalksnz 10.1

      Justice Downs when ruling against the Supression of Terrorism Act being used had a thought experiment about possibly 'a shopping mall knife attack in broad daylight.'

      I read some very unflattering opinions online about Justice Downs who was appointed in 2016. Cant possibly repeat them here even though they are legally focused

      • Ghostwhowalksnz 10.1.1

        This is what the Judge was reported as saying when this person couldnt be charged with planning an attack
        ‘He said he could not know what the planned “knife attack” scenario put forward by the Crown actually entailed, and therefore he could not evaluate it.

        “Is it, for example, an attack in broad daylight in a busy shopping centre while the defendant repeatedly yells support for Islamic State? Or an attack under cover of darkness with no witnesses in which the defendant says nothing?”

        https://www.stuff.co.nz/national/crime/300399197/why-auckland-terror-attacker-wasnt-charged-under-terror-laws-despite-being-on-watchlist

        Seems like scenario proposed was eventually real.
        Its strange as the Terrorism Suppression Act does have a section on planning an attack, which is treated as it had occured.

        • Ad 10.1.1.1

          Either the Police prosecutors need to appeal this kind of case faster, or New Zealand is going to need a dedicated court for anything with terror-related charges.

          • Ghostwhowalksnz 10.1.1.1.1

            The Act spells out that planning is covered. The Judge seems to have decided that the case for planning wasnt 'specific' enough. ie day or night , location and methods.

            '25 Carrying out and facilitating terrorist acts

            (1)For the purposes of this Act, a terrorist act is carried out if any 1 or more of the following occurs:

            (a)planning or other preparations to carry out the act, whether it is actually carried out or not:

            (b)a credible threat to carry out the act, whether it is actually carried out or not:

            (c)an attempt to carry out the act:

            (d)the carrying out of the act.

            • Ad 10.1.1.1.1.1

              All the better to appeal.

              • Ghostwhowalksnz

                Yes. look how many times the Crown appealed the Kim Dotcom decisions even when it was a scintilla favourable to him- and he did the same when it came against him

                Thats what the Court of Appeal is for creating a 'coat from cloth' in the way the bare words are interpreted. Especially when the clause is specifically about planning and preparation. The kitchen situation comes to mind.

      • Hongi Ika 10.1.2

        Obviously not a lateral thinker, he wanted specifics ?

        • Ghostwhowalksnz 10.1.2.1

          Yes. The judges comments were that the prosecution hadnt shown whether the defendant would attack 'under the cover of darkness' or 'in broad daylight in a shopping centre' [Yes he did say THAT]

          Guess what. If people have or could possibly die what purpose does it achieve wheter its day or night.

          Its the most absurd 'black letter lawyering' that you could imagine. This wasnt some ordinary person, they already would have had a preponderance of evidence of what his intentions would be. He even said so…'the 5 knives'

          • Sacha 10.1.2.1.1

            If the sentencing was absurd, why would govt decide the law needed changing?

            • Ghostwhowalksnz 10.1.2.1.1.1

              Wasnt the sentencing, as the trial for the planning a terrorist attack didnt happen or charges dismissed ( not sure which)

              The High Court judge ruled that the evidence from prosecution for his plan wasnt detailed enough. Wasnt helped by the case being heard by a very bright but pompous judge.

              S25 of Terrorism Supression Act seems ridicuously brief compared to the convoluted legalese of other parts.

              Yet S25 was the core of 'committing , planning, implementing' a terrorist act.

              • Sacha

                Where are you getting these impressions of the judge's character?

              • mickysavage

                Section 25 defines "terrorist act" but you have to work through the offence defining sections to see what the elements of each offence is.

  9. UncookedSelachimorpha 11

    Another weak young man with an inflated sense of his own importance, I am guessing.

  10. Ad 12

    So the Prime Minister said that this attacked was Isis-inspired.

    And also that the state had utilised every legal and surveillance power available to us to keep people safe from this individual.

    "Last year, the Crown had sought to prosecute S under the Terrorism Suppression Act 2002, but a High Court judge ruled that preparing a terrorist attack was not in itself an offence under the legislation.

    Neither defences give any comfort.

    “On May 26 this year, he was found guilty by a jury of possessing propaganda-style material supportive of Islamic State.

    He was acquitted on other charges of possessing a graphic video depicting a prisoner being decapitated and possession of an offensive weapon."

    https://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/auckland-mall-terrorist-attack-isis-sympathiser-had-been-arrested-for-allegedly-planning-lone-wolf-knife-attack/YJMR4NTEU5Q6DO7NSZP7BGIKDM/

    There must seriously be a Ministerial Inquiry into this.

    If after the re-tooling and re-funding of the intelligence services and the focus on extremists we apparently have, why is it possible for them to harm us so much?

    I am pleased that our Police were armed quick enough to shoot him.

    But with the Afghan withdrawal and the 9/11 anniversary occurring so close now, we have both 15 March and early September to be super-vigilant for.

    I expect, with COVID on top of that, we are going to have security screens for trains and malls. More and more freedoms lost to protect from a tiny few.

    Can the Prime Minister not simply name and shame that super-risky few in New Zealand? I would prefer that their human rights were decreased rather than mine are continually eroded.

    If the High Court can't protect us with prosecution of planned attack, I want to see the Police take this to the Supreme Court.

    We don't deserve a diminished society.

    • Robert Guyton 12.1

      Society/civilization has built-in, self-diminishment, doesn't it? We are crammed together, under-pressure, pointlessly-striving, spiritually-depleted, politically-manipulated, culturally-prejudiced and as a result, have to impose or live under a raft of restrictions on our behaviour. It's part & parcel of being civilised.

      • Ad 12.1.1

        Exactly the opposite. We gathered together first in Gobekle Tepe to celebrate the cosmos 11,000 years ago and put walls up in Jericho two thousand years later to protect our rights from chaos and war.

        We flourish through organisation, co-operation, and political organisation.

        Maybe just wind it back a bit with the all-encompassing National Greographic abstract nouns about civilisation, and stick to the improvements we need to make right here and rightnow.

        • Robert Guyton 12.1.1.1

          Well, we could foster cooperation, rather than competition (for a start).

          • Ad 12.1.1.1.1

            How on earth do you think cities run?

            • Robert Guyton 12.1.1.1.1.1

              I was alluding to the mechanics of the discussion here 🙂

              I think cities run on complex, untidy, sometime decrepit lines like a poorly-constructed coral reef without the elegance and with a great deal of waste and loss of non-human life. There is a semblance of cooperation (stop at the red light!) and a mess of "cheats" (drive through if it's late at night and no one's about). Cities "run" but run badly and aren't sustainable in the long term.

              • Robert Guyton

                "What man has done to man has no limit. He has tortured him; he has burned him; he has killed him; he has exploited him in every possible way—religious, political and economic. This has been the story of man against man; the clever exploit the stupid, the ignorant. All philosophies are intellectual and therefore not whole. These philosophies have enslaved man. They have invented concepts of what society should be and sacrificed man to their concepts; the ideals of the so-called thinkers have dehumanized man. Exploitation of another man or woman seems to be the way of our daily life. We use each other, and each one accepts this. Out of this peculiar relationship, dependence arises with all the misery, confusion and agony that is inherent in dependence. Man has been both inwardly and outwardly so treacherous to himself and to others. How can there be love in these circumstances?" —Krishnamurti

                • Ad

                  Schopenhauer was worse.

                  Not sure how the fatalists are really helping anything here.

                  • Robert Guyton

                    Probably not helping, but teasing out the core reasons, perhaps.

                    Have you read of this experiment?

                    The "Universe 25" experiment is one of the most terrifying experiments in the history of science, which, through the behavior of a colony of mice, is an attempt by scientists to explain human societies. The idea of ​​"Universe 25" Came from the American scientist John Calhoun, who created an "ideal world" in which hundreds of mice would live and reproduce. More specifically, Calhoun built the so-called "Paradise of Mice", a specially designed space where rodents had Abundance of food and water, as well as a large living space. In the beginning, he placed four pairs of mice that in a short time began to reproduce, resulting in their population growing rapidly. However, after 315 days their reproduction began to decrease significantly. When the number of rodents reached 600, a hierarchy was formed between them and then the so-called "wretches" appeared. The larger rodents began to attack the group, with the result that many males begin to "collapse" psychologically. As a result, the females did not protect themselves and in turn became aggressive towards their young. As time went on, the females showed more and more aggressive behavior, isolation elements and lack of reproductive mood. There was a low birth rate and, at the same time, an increase in mortality in younger rodents. Then, a new class of male rodents appeared, the so-called "beautiful mice". They refused to mate with the females or to "fight" for their space. All they cared about was food and sleep. At one point, "beautiful males" and "isolated females" made up the majority of the population. As time went on, juvenile mortality reached 100% and reproduction reached zero. Among the endangered mice, homosexuality was observed and, at the same time, cannibalism increased, despite the fact that there was plenty of food. Two years after the start of the experiment, the last baby of the colony was born. By 1973, he had killed the last mouse in the Universe 25. John Calhoun repeated the same experiment 25 more times, and each time the result was the same.

                    Calhoun's scientific work has been used as a model for interpreting social collapse, and his research serves as a focal point for the study of urban sociology.

                    ~Dutch Medicine Man~

                    • Robert Guyton

                      That's all from me.

                    • Ad

                      Nope, a 1970s cannabilistic mouse experiment isn't helping either.

                      This post is discussing a terrorist attack just 5 kms from me.

                      Take mouse experiment bullshit off to Open Mike.

                • Stuart Munro

                  These philosophies have enslaved man.

                  They were less oppressive in general, than the sophistries that preceded them, and the postmodernism that came after them.

        • Ngungukai 12.1.1.2

          Surely he could have been held under the Mental Health Act as a Nut Job ?

  11. Marcus Morris 13

    The problem for the government is that we are now told that there is legislation pending that might have given the authorities the power to have (probably) prevented this incident but that has been moving very slowly through its various processes.

    This is in stark contrast to the speed in which the very necessary guns laws were brought after the Christchurch Mosque attacks.

    • Ghostwhowalksnz 13.1

      The existing legislation does cover planning a terrorist attack.

      '(a)planning or other preparations to carry out the act, whether it is actually carried out or not:'

      It was a very strange decision from an odd judge. It was clear to 'other preparations' covers a wider area than detailed plans or a specific time or day or method

      • Sacha 13.1.1

        From what I have heard in media from legal experts so far, isn't the fundamental issue that this would take our law into what people are thinking rather than doing (including speech acts)? I can understand judges wanting clarity from government about the boundaries of that change.

        • Sacha 13.1.1.1

          And government picking it up as a law change suggests validity.

        • Ngungukai 13.1.1.2

          The law is a very grey area and subject to legal interpretation by a Judge, he obviously saw no risk to the community and ruled accordingly.

          [Why are you using two different user names under the same Post? Looking at your history here it appears that this is a habit of yours, a bad habit, because it is deceptive to others. You seem to have had a few run-ins with Moderation here.

          Please explain.

          Please stick to one user name only when you comment here, from now on, thanks – Incognito]

  12. David Cunliffe 14

    As a former MP for New Lynn who loves it still, I just want to register my shock and sadness that this has happened, my utter abhorrence of the cowardly attack on unarmed shoppers, and my deep sympathies to those injured and their familes.

    As The Standard contributors are rightly doing in this thread, we will all need to consider the adequacy and operation of our anti terrorism laws, balanced with protection of the civil liberites that are the foundation of our beautiful and diverse community.

    One thing is for sure – the lowlife who committed this act was rightly stopped by police before he could harm others, and we all wish the intervention could have saved those who were hurt.

    My heart goes out to the New Lynn communitty, to Sri Lankan Kiwis who in no way share any responsibility for this, and especially for the vicitms and their families. Arohanui te whanau.

  13. Ghostwhowalksnz 15

    The Herald, unusually , looks back in its archives for some relevant background which doesnt put Collins in a good light.. Could it again call into question her judgement.

    She is also defending her decision in 2013 when, as Justice Minister, she removed a review of counter-terrorism laws from the Law Commission's work programme saying "there does not appear to be any substantial or urgent concerns arising from the operation of the [Terrorism Suppression] Act".

    When asked about this on RNZ.
    ‘Asked about her comments in 2013 about having no substantial or urgent concerns with New Zealand’s counter terrorism legislation, she said it was “really unfair” to ask her about decisions from eight years ago.’

    So unfair is it?

  14. dv 16

    Just a point of clarification.

    Did the place take 60 secs to arrive, or was it over in 60 sec?

  15. Patricia Bremner 17

    yes

  16. Sacha 19

    Various short RNZ interviews in here: https://www.rnz.co.nz/news/national/450750/new-zealand-counter-terrorism-legislation-outdated-law-experts

    • Otago University law professor Andrew Geddis.
    • John Battersby, a specialist on terrorism and counter-terrorism at Massey University.
    • Judith Collins, if you must.
    • Islamic Women's Council spokesperson Anjum Rahman.

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