The apparatus behind the curtain – Part 2: The mainline

Written By: Guest post - Date published: 2:40 pm, February 11th, 2024 - 60 comments
Categories: david seymour, Deep stuff, Media, spin, taxpayers union - Tags:

In part one of this, I drew back the curtain to reveal the Atlas Network.

I mentioned David Seymour’s strong connection to this network and touched on his involvement with an Atlas-connected lobby group in Canada, which I hope more information comes to light about.

Today I want to talk about another Atlas aligned connection, one that I call the apparatus mainline in Aotearoa New Zealand.

The reason I call it that is so much of misinformation, disinformation and malinformation that many on the right buy into and believe comes through this group.

It is also because this group is a link to many other smaller so-called “community advocacy” groups.

That group is the Taxpayer’s Union.

Jordan Williams heads up this so-called union, founded in 2013 by National Party pollster David Farrer and Williams.

They have been a part of the Atlas Network since at least 2016, alongside the New Zealand Initiative.

ATLAS NETWORK – NZ ORGANISATIONS
Organisation	Year
	2003	2004	2005	2010	2011	2012	2014	2015	2016	2017	2018	2019	2020	2021
Education Forum		1	1
Maxim Institute	1	1	1	1	1	1	1	1
NZ Business Roundtable		1	1
Taxpayers’ Union									1	1	1	1	1	1
The NZ Initiative						1	1	1	1	1	1	1	1	1

Source: DeSmog webpage on the Atlas Network

A quick note – the above table shows the Maxim Institute being part of Atlas Network from at least 2003 until 2015. This coincides with Maxim being led by Greg Fleming, who is now the National Party MP for Maungakiekie.

But back to the Taxpayers’ Union.

Cindy Baxter in her Newsroom story said Jordan Williams was “quite the hero at Atlas”. He attended their “MBA training” in 2015, which is probably the same training David Seymour went through in 2008, and he was awarded a fellowship in 2018.

Source: Atlas Network. Jordan Williams with other 2015 Think Tank participants and Atlas Network staff.

Atlas are quite the fanboys of Williams and the TPU, having written about him a number of times.

Interestingly, and despite the Taxpayers’ Union having declared its association with Atlas, Williams is not a big fan of having that connection so clearly laid out in public.

On the platform formerly known as Twitter, a post suggesting questions for journalists to ask David Seymour resulted in a poor attempt from Williams to call the post “absolutely cooked”. Amusingly, most of the replies challenged Williams about the TPU’s connections to Atlas.

The reality is we need to ask these questions.

As University of Auckland associate professor of law Timothy Kuhner said to David Williams, we need more transparency around groups like the TPU and their connections to global networks like Atlas.

“What we’re seeing is an increase in the number of ways that people can influence electoral outcomes, and the formation of public opinion, free from public scrutiny.”

As well as being the executive director of the TPU, according to his Linkedin profile, Williams is also a director of The Campaign Company, as well as the co-founder and board member of the Free Speech Union. He was the FSU chair until the end of 2022.

The Taxpayers’ Union was revealed to be the group that registered the website domain name www.motherofallprotests.nz for Groundswell, the “fringe agricultural group” whose tractor protests clogged up motorways during 2022.

According to David Williams, the ownership of that domain (which appears to no longer be live on the internet) was moved to The Campaign Company.

This Williams company prefers to work away in the dark too.

It does have a website, but strangely for a digital marketing company, there is zero promotion of previous campaigns and testimonials from happy clients.

Instead there is a holder page with a “contact” form to fill out and a brief sentence:

“We provide digital campaign services to political and commercial clients across the globe. We combine political experience and local understanding with international best practice and technology to offer a best-in-class service across our four key competencies.”

Screenshot of The Campaign Company website

Questions need to asked by our journalists and a spotlight shone on Williams, the TPU and their backers like Atlas.

After all, the TPU are behind the Stop Three Waters campaign, and the Stop Central Planning Committees amoung others.

These two campaigns were adopted by the conspiracy theory community, so-called “equal citizenship” groups like Democracy Action and people involved enjoyed giving the perception that the campaigns were grass-roots when they were anything but.

Authorisation boilerplate at the bottom of the Stop Three Waters website.

Ironically, in the wake of the current government’s scrapping of Three Waters, the TPU are now attacking councils for proposing double digit rates hikes to try and fund the infrastructure spend that the Three Waters proposal would have covered.

And the TPU are attacking the Make It 16 campaign, and are wading into the current Te Tiriti debate pushed by fellow Atlas alumni David Seymour.

In December 2023 they brought Lord Daniel Hannan over to New Zealand for their 10th birthday.

While here, he gave a talk on equality and the Treaty that was attended by a number of coalition MPs.

Yes, one of the script-writers of Brexit was telling our newly elected government MPs what Te Tiriti, our founding document, was all about.

Not surprisingly, it was a speech that was shared by another Atlas connected group, the New Zealand Initiative, as well as the racism-pushing blog Bassett Brash and Hide.

Sadly, this kind of thing will continue.

Expect more attacks on our democracy by Atlas Network connected lobby groups and think tanks and all the affiliated groups.

As such, given the influence from Atlas on Williams himself and on the TPU, and given the influence the TPU has on the political right, their nefarious actions need to be highlighted and have the transparency spotlight shone on.

We cannot rest. Our nation’s founding document and our unique, beautiful democracy are at threat.

Be informed. Help others get informed.

Seddonville Miner

60 comments on “The apparatus behind the curtain – Part 2: The mainline ”

Comments are now closed

Patricia Bremner 1

11 February 2024 at 4:32 pm

Thanks for this. Being informed matters. Has PM Luxon any ties?
- Anne 1.1
  
  11 February 2024 at 6:14 pm
  
  Indirectly he must have ties. These are the people who are informing him behind the scenes. David Farrar, Jordan Williams plus a further bunch of characters whose identities are not as yet known to us, but who have links to these Atlas Network outfits. For instance, I was not aware that the National MP for Maungakiekie, Greg Fleming was part of the Maxim Institute off-shoot.
  
  The evidence thus far suggests they are infiltrating the right-wing parties in NZ with the ultimate view of becoming the majority within those parties. My God, they have to be stopped before they lead us into a modern day fascist state.
  - Tony Veitch 1.1.1
    
    11 February 2024 at 8:02 pm
    
    Didn't Luxon slag NZ off to a right wing think tank in the UK?
    
    Does that think tank have any connections with Atlas?
    - Anne 1.1.1.1
      
      11 February 2024 at 10:10 pm
      
      You set me off on a google search and here is what I found:
      
      https://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/british-pm-boris-johnson-exit-disrupts-national-party-leader-christopher-luxons-london-visit/LK6CLWNKT6CMIMI2ILYG43KCOE/
      
      “Luxon said his London visit was not a complete write-off: he had visited the Michaela Community School in London to learn about the charter school model used there, spoken at the think tank The Policy Exchange, and met with the Centre for Policy Studies”
      
      https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Policy_Exchange
      
      https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/55_Tufton_Street
      
      “55 Tufton Street is a four-storey Georgian-era townhouse on historic Tufton Street, in Westminster, London, owned by businessman Richard Smith. Since the 2010s the building has hosted a network of libertarian lobby groups and think tanks related to pro-Brexit, climate science denial and other fossil-fuel lobby groups. Some of the organisations it houses have close connections with those at 57 Tufton Street next door, including the Centre for Policy Studies”
      
      Richard Smith is the founder of the Atlas network.
    - Anne 1.1.1.2
      
      11 February 2024 at 10:21 pm
      
      Luxon visited two think tanks in London in July 2022, one of them is definitely linked to Atlas, Not sure about the other one. I submitted the links together with three short quotes but the comment has gone into moderation. Thought I was making it easier to read but….
      
      Have streamlined original comment so hope it goes through:
      
      https://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/british-pm-boris-johnson-exit-disrupts-national-party-leader-christopher-luxons-london-visit/LK6CLWNKT6CMIMI2ILYG43KCOE/
      “Luxon said his London visit was not a complete write-off: he had visited the Michaela Community School in London to learn about the charter school model used there, spoken at the think tank The Policy Exchange, and met with the Centre for Policy Studies”
      https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Policy_Exchange
      https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/55_Tufton_Street
      55 Tufton Street., London is the centre for Atlas network groups including Centre for Political Studies.
      - Patricia Bremner 1.1.1.2.1
        
        12 February 2024 at 2:05 am
        
        Thank you Anne. Somehow I knew that was the case. We need to broadcast this widely. So he is a cookie cutter PM?
      - cindy baxter 1.1.1.2.2
        
        12 February 2024 at 11:21 am
        
        I think the link is pretty straightfoward:
        
        Luxon's visit to London included his speech at Policy Exchange, an Atlas Network member organisation.
        
        The New Zealand Institute's CEO Oliver Hartwich used to work at Policy Exchange.
    - Patricia Bremner 1.1.1.3
      
      12 February 2024 at 8:19 am
      
      That was what was niggling Tony
  - Mike 1.1.2
    
    12 February 2024 at 11:40 am
    
    It is worse than that. Fleming established the Maxim Institute in 2001, and was it's CEO from 2005 – 2013. During 2004 as director, he spoke to media and compared same-sex civil unions to incest and polygamy. He was the General Manager of The Parenting Place before that, and returned to The Parenting Place as CEO from 2015-2020. Maxim has been connected to the Atlas Network for a number of years.
    - Anne 1.1.2.1
      
      12 February 2024 at 5:00 pm
      
      Yes Mike, I picked up on that.
      
      These people see themselves as the elite in society. They don't have to abide by the rules as laid out for the common man and woman. Hence the lies, the deceit and the fundamentalist attitudes they display towards any enlightened enterprise.
      
      They deny climate change, they worship at the foot of Mammon and nothing makes them happier than trawling the land and sea for oil, oil, and more oil.
      
      I listened to 30 seconds of Luxon at his post cabinet conference today defending the repeal of 3 Waters. He claimed (and I paraphrase) that they were determined to let local and regional bodies manage their own affairs and not be dictated to by government – all said with that grim facial expression as if life itself was in immediate danger. The inference was, the previous government spent all its time controlling local governments and riding rough shod over them. Codswallop!
      
      In truth they are the modern day dinosaurs and their small brains are commensurate with that once extinct beast.
- CharlieB 1.2
  
  11 February 2024 at 6:16 pm
  
  He doesn't need to.
  
  That's kind of the point.
  
  All that needs to happen is that he does as he's told, and says what he is told to say. Those with the actual ties such as Bishop, Willis, Seymour and others will write the script.
adam 2

11 February 2024 at 5:38 pm

Atlas a co-operative of corporate cock suckers.
- Ad 2.1
  
  11 February 2024 at 8:48 pm
  
  Like you can win elections without slapping on the Presidential Kneepads.
  
  Not.
Ffloyd 3

11 February 2024 at 8:22 pm

Seymour and Act surging up un the latest Taxpayers Union Curia poll. They’re coming for us. Quite unsettling when it is obvious that Seymour has strong connections to Atlas. WT Heck?
- Anne 3.1
  
  11 February 2024 at 9:06 pm
  
  Never forget Curia is owned and run by David Farrar who has connections to the Atlas network. Even though they reflected the same trends as the other polling companies, it was noticeable over the years that Curia's numbers were quite often more generous to National.
  - Ghostwhowalks 3.1.1
    
    12 February 2024 at 9:43 am
    
    I wondered about that too
    
    However the polling results for last election as given on Wikipedia shows national election result was 38.8% while the pre election numbers from curia were around 35% with highest 35.9%
    - Anne 3.1.1.1
      
      12 February 2024 at 10:20 am
      
      I too, noted their polling was more more in line during the lead up to the last election. I also think there was a last minute swing to National prompted by the relentlessly negative campaign from the right which the tabloid media had been more than happy to accommodate.
Ad 4

11 February 2024 at 8:47 pm

If you look at the impressive donor lost for the Greens this time around, there is the beginnings of a renewed haute-bourgeoise campaign machine to contest the TPU and National's key funders.

I could run off five key families in Otago who would be good bundlers if approached the right way.

Back in the Helen Clark era, fundraising was just huge fun. The age of the rockstar insider bundler. Unfortunately that's 15 years ago for Labour.
feijoa 5

11 February 2024 at 10:56 pm

Aha

That Lord whasisname spoke about equality and the treaty

There's that word equality again. It's a very difficult word to argue against.

That is the key word they are using- even Luxon used it. They are going to hammer the word EQUALITY over and over until everyone's drunk with it and the treaty is gone in the name of 'equality'. Job done.
- Patricia Bremner 5.1
  
  12 February 2024 at 2:03 am
  
  Having equal shares is not equity though. They know that, but hope to fudge the stats.
roblogic 6

12 February 2024 at 2:38 am

A few other threads:
- NZCPR (NZ Centre for political research) run by Muriel Newman is publishing anti Treaty (and expensive) nationwide propaganda – its funding is unclear
- Hobsons Pledge (Don Brash) is another ACT-adjacent org undermining indigenous rights
- Matthew Hooten and Chris Trotter are scribbling increasingly bizarre and paranoid rants
Covered pretty well by Josh Drummond

Plus there is the whole landscape of cookers/ fringe voices who buy into all kinds of crazy shit fed by QAnon & anti-vax groups, whom I suspect are being encouraged to sow confusion by Russian or Chinese covert psy-ops
- Obtrectator 6.1
  
  12 February 2024 at 7:54 am
  
  Did we ever agree on a term to replace "cookers", which a short time ago was coming to be regarded on this site as opprobrious?
  - Patricia Bremner 6.1.1
    
    12 February 2024 at 8:34 am
    
    The” misleading and misled”
    Those who do it purposefully, and those it affects.?
  - Robert Guyton 6.1.2
    
    12 February 2024 at 10:02 am
    
    Nope, we didn't. What was made clear by the moderators, is that anyone showing a pattern of behaviour, such as regularly using certain words or phrases that others had objected to, would be warned, then booted off, if need be 🙂
    - gsays 6.1.2.1
      
      12 February 2024 at 12:25 pm
      
      Despite being told several times you continue with this disingenuous crap.
      
      The repeated pattern of behaviour is correct, with the intent to limit another's input or to dehumanise them, is what some object to.
      
      My objection, particularly to your usage, is the othering.
      
      There are wounds that need to heal and we face BIG issues.
      
      We need to unite and having people in positions of power and leadership splintering and othering just sets us back, time after time.
      - Robert Guyton 6.1.2.1.1
        
        12 February 2024 at 12:33 pm
        
        Very judgemental of you, gsays, given you claim to know why a person might use a certain word of phrase.
        
        Perhaps weka might clarify 🙂
        
        weka 6.1.2.1.1.1
        
        12 February 2024 at 2:35 pm
        
        Indeed I might. One of the things to understand here immediately is just how much the mods hate moderation being misrepresented.
        
        What was made clear by the moderators, is that anyone showing a pattern of behaviour, such as regularly using certain words or phrases that others had objected to, would be warned, then booted off, if need be 🙂
        
        let's break this down.
        
        the issue isn't about words others object to.
        
        It's when a word or phrase is used as a pejorative and this causes problems for the commentariat
        
        when it came up some weeks ago, cooker was being used as a vague catch all derogatory term
        
        when this was pointed out, the derogatory nature of comments continued sometimes using different words.
        
        because the term wasn't clearly defined, it looked to me (the mod at the time) that it was being used in a way that would fall foul of the Policy: "… tone or language that has the effect of excluding others"
        
        specifically, it wasn't being used at other commenters, but was being used in a way that passively included them
        
        this is consistent with other language that has limited placed on it here. You can't consistently refer to feminist groups as feminazis for instance.
        
        the reason for that is that using the term feminazi is inflammatory and would cause derails as well as putting women off from commenting
        
        Robert Guyton …
        
        12 February 2024 at 5:12 pm
        
        "It's when a word or phrase is used as a pejorative and this causes problems for the commentariat"
        
        How is that determined, I wonder?
        
        More than one commentator?
        
        More than 10?
        
        Asking with regards, "strident".
  - weka 6.1.3
    
    12 February 2024 at 2:39 pm
    
    as a mod I'm not too worried about its use here by roblogic. He is using the term as a descriptor (and quite specifically), not a pejorative.
    
    He could have left it out and just used 'fringe voices' but he is clearly pointing to the beliefs a certain group of people hold and what influences that, rather than just othering them as crazy people.
    
    This is a very important sociopolitical dynamic in many countries now and it's important we have ways to talk about that dynamic without excluding people from the conversation ("tone or language that has the effect of excluding others")
    - roblogic 6.1.3.1
      
      14 February 2024 at 12:59 am
      
      I will be more circumspect in future — I was attempting to make a point about a significant portion of society who aren't merely critical of mainstream narratives but seem to have departed altogether from a coherent worldview and have sunk into paranoia
- gsays 6.2
  
  12 February 2024 at 1:15 pm
  
  C'mon rob, there is no need for Russian/Chinese psy-ops nor QAnon to be agin the Covid vaccine nor to have a dissenting opinion on the mandates.
  
  Recent history, for any citizen is enough to be wary of Big Pharma. Purdue/Sackler family.
  
  "Pfizer set a record for the largest health care fraud settlement and the largest criminal fine of any kind with $2.3 billion in 2009"
  
  https://www.drugwatch.com/manufacturers/pfizer/
  
  From the same link:
  
  "Prempro
  
  Nearly 10,000 women filed Prempro breast cancer lawsuits against Pfizer. By 2012, Pfizer settled most of the claims for more than $1 billion".
  - roblogic 6.2.1
    
    12 February 2024 at 2:02 pm
    
    Big pharma has mixed motives — intended to serve a public good, but subverted by the profit motive.
    
    But that is a side issue from the resounding success of vaccines as a public health measure, and the importance of unity in order to achieve herd immunity from avoidable diseases that are making a comeback now
    - Robert Guyton 6.2.1.1
      
      12 February 2024 at 5:20 pm
      
      Well expressed, roblogic.
      
      I'm interested in why those who are anxious about Big Pharma, also attach themselves to the grab-bag of nutty idea available through Telegram, Groundswell Radio etc. thus inviting the epithet you used.
      - weka 6.2.1.1.1
        
        12 February 2024 at 6:52 pm
        
        Meanwhile, the nutters at the British Journal of Medicine banging on about the problems with big pharma and the whole evidence based medicine enterprise.
        
        As an example, if you find yourself constantly late, disorganised, forgetful, and overwhelmed by your responsibilities—which could refer to all of us—you might have adult attention-deficit disorder. You will be pleased to know that there are at least four different medications currently available for this condition. You could argue that the pharmaceutical industry is becoming equally good, if not better, at manufacturing diseases as opposed to drugs.
        
        https://blogs.bmj.com/bmj/2014/12/04/carl-heneghan-evidence-based-medicine-on-trial/
        
        The thing about the rabbit hole people is that they know something is wrong, and they are right about that. But for some reason they eschew rationality and evidence in favour of what feels right to them. My theory is that they are Gaia's response to the hyper-rationality of the late stage capitalism that is hell bent on destroying the planet.
        
        Robert Guyton 6.2.1.1.1.1
        
        12 February 2024 at 7:08 pm
        
        " My theory is that they are Gaia's response to the hyper-rationality of the late stage capitalism that is hell bent on destroying the planet."
        
        I agree that there is evident, a Gaian response to … what you said, but it sure as Gaia isn't rabbit-hole diving! She's not so flakey as that!
        
        Rather, the rekindling of interest in the natural world and its myriad agents, and the worlds of indigenous communities is what Dr.Gaia orders for the dazed and confused 🙂
        
        weka …
        
        12 February 2024 at 7:29 pm
        
        I think so too. The problem is that civ is driving so many people crazy and once it gets to that point it's very hard to remedy while the cause is so insistent. Fear seems to be a big driver of response now.
        
        More and more these days I think collapse is the only way we get out of this alive so to speak. We being the ones committed to the wellbeing of all life. If everyone going crazy (and that's not limited to the rabbit hole people) could have respite care in nature, much would change and probably reasonably quickly. A slow collapse where people have time/space to choose a different response, go sit in the forest instead of worrying about maintaining the crazy lifestyle.
        
        I still have faith in the powerdown though, where collapse could be more like giving up civ for something better. And I agree that the rekindling of interest in the natural world and indigenous ways is absolutely crucial to things working out.
        
        weka …
        
        12 February 2024 at 7:30 pm
        
        the myriad agents 😁 Psyops from nature 💚
        
        Robert Guyton …
        
        12 February 2024 at 8:29 pm
        
        This looks really good, weka.
        
        https://dark-mountain.net/the-end-of-the-beginning/
  - weka 6.2.2
    
    12 February 2024 at 2:42 pm
    
    C'mon rob, there is no need for Russian/Chinese psy-ops nor QAnon to be agin the Covid vaccine nor to have a dissenting opinion on the mandates.
    
    I think this misses the point. I don't think it's controversial now to understand that there are groups that jump into conflicts for their own purposes.
    
    So yes, all sorts of problems with big pharma and parts of the left have this weird position of treating big pharma as angels which makes it harder to talk about the power dynamics and corruption. But Qanon and foreign nation state agents exist too, and have their own corruption and methods.
    - Robert Guyton 6.2.2.1
      
      12 February 2024 at 5:21 pm
      
      "… parts of the left have this weird position of treating big pharma as angels".
      
      Can you back up that claim, weka?
      - weka 6.2.2.1.1
        
        12 February 2024 at 5:50 pm
        
        it's been my experience with a large number of conversations online, many on TS, but elsewhere as well, where tolerance for criticism of big pharma is low. Somehow the critiques of the influence and/or corruption of big business fall away when it comes to pharmaceutical companies.
        
        It was palpable during the early years of the pandemic, when it was very difficult to raise questions about vaccines without being met with a full court press of resistance. But I used to experience long before that and often enough to name it as a specific dynamic.
        
        Robert Guyton 6.2.2.1.1.1
        
        12 February 2024 at 6:59 pm
        
        "Angels" though?
        
        My experience is different. The "lefties" I spoke/speak to, are aware of the potential and real failings of so-called Big Pharma but rather than baulk at vaccinating for Covid, reasoned that vaccinating was over all, the best option. My pals didn't at any point express a view that Big Pharma was/were angels.
        
        As an aside, many of them also utilise natural medicines whenever they can, but would doubtless agree to the use of Big Pharma's anaesthetic gas, should they require major surgery, as I suspect gsays would also.
        
        Those same people know that Big Oil is far from angelic, but continue to use their products; needs must.
        
        weka …
        
        12 February 2024 at 7:16 pm
        
        I think we are talking about different lefties. I'm talking about the ones who think natural medicines are quackery.
        
        Big pharma as angels is a figure of speech intended to convey the belief basis to some people's position on medical science. Sometimes I also refer to the science is god people. It doesn't mean that they believe that big pharma can do no wrong, it means that their fundamentalist philosophical beliefs create an argument where science is the best we have. It creates a competition between the different ways of knowing and assigns all the other ways of knowing as not only lesser but wrong and even evil.
        
        Jerry Coyne would be an example of the position generally. It's very irrational. I have no idea where he fits on the political spectrum but there are lefties for whom serious critique of big pharma is very challenging.
        
        gsays …
        
        14 February 2024 at 9:35 am
        
        "Those same people know that Big Oil is far from angelic, but continue to use their products; needs must."
        
        How very Trotteresque of you.
        
        As for comparing the novel mRNA vaccine (approved under emergency conditions by the FDA) with a compound that has been used since 1846, I wonder if disingenuous is a star sign.
        
        Robert Guyton …
        
        14 February 2024 at 9:52 am
        
        "Those people know that Big Pharma is far from angelic, but continue to use their products; needs must".
        
        Eschew oil products entirely, earn the epithet, "crackpot".
        
        Eschew pharmacy products entirely, earn the epithet ******
        
        🙂
        
        roblogic 6.2.2.1.1.2
        
        14 February 2024 at 1:02 am
        
        I was fairly pro-establishment because vaccine hesitancy is a significant health risk in itself
- Anker 6.3
  
  12 February 2024 at 5:42 pm
  
  I think you will find that Muriel Newmans published material is about the Treaty of Waitangi, written by Sir Aparana Ngata. One of the great Maori leaders of all time
  - joe90 6.3.1
    
    12 February 2024 at 6:38 pm
    
    Muriel Newmans published material is about the Treaty of Waitangi, written by Sir Aparana Ngata.
    
    ?
    - Anker 6.3.1.1
      
      13 February 2024 at 11:47 am
      
      https://www.nzcpr.com/treaty-book-project/
      
      This is what Muriel Newman is distributing. Sir Aparana Ngatis book on the Treaty of Waitangi. Its worth a read I think
  - SPC 6.3.2
    
    12 February 2024 at 6:48 pm
    
    MN has written numerous posts on the site.
    
    https://www.nzcpr.com/
  - Robert Guyton 6.3.3
    
    12 February 2024 at 6:52 pm
    
    ACT's Muriel Newman?
    
    A must-read then!
    - Anker 6.3.3.1
      
      13 February 2024 at 11:57 am
      
      I think Sir Apirana Ngata's take on the Treaty is worth a read.
      - Robert Guyton 6.3.3.1.1
        
        13 February 2024 at 12:13 pm
        
        Rest assured, those lawyers and academics, Pākehā and Māori who have been forging the modern manifestation and application of Te Tiriti o Waitangi, will have read it, without needing to be prompted by ACT.
      - roblogic 6.3.3.1.2
        
        13 February 2024 at 11:40 pm
        
        I respect the mana of Ngata but he was incorrect to say that Māori ceded sovereignty which seems to be the line taken by NZCPR and fellow travellers. Ngata's thought was an improvement on the assimilationist views of the time.
        
        Many other scholars (Moana Jackson, Ranginui Walker, Dame Anne Salmond) have corrected this mistake but it persists as a popular self-serving colonist myth.
        
        According to Apirana Ngata, Māori ceded sovereignty by signing Te Tiriti. Is he right? | The Spinoff
        
        Anker 6.3.3.1.2.1
        
        14 February 2024 at 9:14 am
        
        It is Ngata's view rather than a "mistake".
        
        I will read the article you have posted though
        
        Robert Guyton …
        
        14 February 2024 at 9:55 am
        
        From the article:
        
        “But Ngata is an important and respected person, living at a time much closer to 1840 than we are. Shouldn’t we take his views seriously?
        
        Yes, Ngata is an important figure and one of significant mana. We should not dismiss his views out of hand. But, respected figure though he is, he is only one person, and we should not uncritically accept his views without any other context.”"
        
        Anker 6.3.3.1.2.2
        
        14 February 2024 at 8:09 pm
        
        And a rebuff to the Spinoff's article
Ghostwhowalks 7

12 February 2024 at 9:52 am

In the period around 2005 I was working at a place not far from Maxim HQ in a residential part of Waikowhai in Auckland . This was a large site the former Keith Hay homestead. The zoning I noticed was residential , but could be used for commercial if the property was also being lived in. Maxim didnt with about 6-8 staff only working there. I raised a complaint with then Auckland City Council that they were breaking zoning rules.

The answer that came back was that I was correct but Maxim would use the 'educational purposes' part of residential zoning to run a business from the site . I think they are still there
Higherstandard 8

12 February 2024 at 9:12 pm

Comedy gold

[There are a number of people who spend considerable time & effort to keep this site running and create content. There are quite a many people who make an effort to have a decent conversation on this site. There are a few trolls who lower the standard of The Standard with their trolling. Trolling is no laughing matter. See you again the day after the Auckland Regional Fuel Tax will have ended – Incognito]
- Incognito 8.1
  
  13 February 2024 at 9:14 am
  
  Mod note