web analytics

The benefit fraud card

Written By: - Date published: 2:21 pm, July 18th, 2013 - 107 comments
Categories: benefits, crime, tax, welfare - Tags: , ,

In trouble over your Sky City dirty deal? Try the benefit fraud card again. Meanwhile, back in the real world…
 
tax evasion vs benefit fraud

107 comments on “The benefit fraud card ”

  1. tracey 1

    its sad how some people like the constant attacks on welfare cos they consider it “our” money but they dont seem to get that tax evaders are cheating us while smiling to our faces and attacking welfare

  2. Anne 2

    More than 3000 cases of welfare fraud have been uncovered in the last six months

    What percentage of the total number of beneficiaries (discounting those on superannuation) does that equate to? The news outlets never supply the full picture. My hunch is that 3000 is little more than a drop in the bucket.

    In the 1990s when I was caring for an elderly mother with mild dementia and becoming increasingly frail, I received the DPB which, at that time, was only a few dollars more than the unemployment benefit. Around $160 to $170 per week (from memory) to live on… purchase petrol for the car and pay the bills. I was able to get a part time job for one day a week (Sat.) and that enabled me to make ends meet – sort of. Once in a blue moon I got an extra day’s work – desperately needed – but never declared it otherwise my benefit would have been docked. It amounted to around $60 net extra on each occasion.

    I guess that made me a beneficiary fraudster. A criminal?

    • weka 2.1

      I’d like to know how fraud is being defined for those stats too.

    • AsleepWhileWalking 2.2

      Well, it isn’t anything like the “criminal” definition of fraud.

      • Mary 2.2.1

        No, it’s not. It’s defined by which internal unit within Work and Income identifies a potential “discrepancy”. For example, because the data matching is carried out by the investigation unit then all “discrepancies” identified go into the fraud statistics. This was uncovered in the mid-1990s by some advocates in Wellington around the time of the TV “dob in a beneficiary” campaign. I think it was the Wellington People’s Centre who uncovered it and made complaints to various authorities. The Government Statistician agreed the statistics were misleading because they didn’t represent fraud at all. Nothing changed though, except a disclaimer was added hidden as a tiny footnote saying something like “these figures don’t necessarily represent actual fraudulent behaviour”. But the intention remained which is to present the figures as if it’s all fraud in order to help paint the picture of all beneficiaries being criminals and of course the lazy MSM don’t let facts get in the way of the story. Again, there should be outrage but it’s only beneficiaries so it doesn’t matter. Imagine the same scenario going on anywhere else?

    • tracey 2.3

      Yes anne you are an evil criminal we never caught. Whereas those who do cash jobs and deprive the revenue of gst and income or company taxes are just hard working kiwis who need a break…. unlike you caring for a vulnerable member of society…

      • ab6666 2.3.1

        Didn’t her admission of doing cash work just amount to being both a benefit fraudster and a tax evader?

        • CnrJoe 2.3.1.1

          and a home carer with dementia involved – try it

        • Anne 2.3.1.2

          Who said the extra days work (on average once every 8 weeks) was cash work? Not me. Just another idiot assumption from a RWNJ?

    • Mary 2.4

      “Once in a blue moon I got an extra day’s work – desperately needed – but never declared it otherwise my benefit would have been docked. It amounted to around $60 net extra on each occasion.

      I guess that made me a beneficiary fraudster. A criminal?”

      Yes, unfortunately. The unfairness of benefit levels or abatement rules have nothing to do with what’s fraud and what’s not. It’s your intention that’s crucial here.

      Having said that, my guess is that the occasional one-off payment would not have in fact reduced your entitlement to the DPB because that benefit is abated on an annual basis and income is averaged over that period so may well have meant total annual income remained under the average weekly exemption. Again, I think xtasy is probably the best person who knows all about this, but Work and Income often tries to reduce the DPB on a weekly calculation but this is wrong. Lots of people have had and continue to have significant amounts of benefit payments wrongly withheld because of this unlawful policy.

  3. Chris 3

    Where does the $39m come from – the minimum number must be higher given they have ones they have identified in that article cost the country $34 million p.a. Either that or they have managed to stop around 90% of welfare fraud which should be applauded.

    I admit that no matter the real number of welfare fraud tax evasion is going to be magnitudes of order larger and should obviously also be dealt with. However the government is also going after these and have had a few high profile case wins recently.

    As you said obvious distraction is obvious.

  4. King Kong 4

    I read the headline and initially thought this might be a Mana Party policy announcement.

    Something similar to the Gold Card but for lazy lefties instead of old people.

  5. ak 5

    Big tough ex-copper Borrows boasting his bloated arse off about three thousand battling bennies hanging on to twenty bucks a week……sickening, bullying, thug.

  6. Santi 6

    No dole/benefit double-dipping. Good to see it curtailed and stopped.

    • McFlock 6.1

      if it ever existed.

      Meanwhile, double-dipton is letting the true parasites off scot-free.

    • Roy 6.2

      So how do you feel about the double-dippers who pocket National Super while still holding down a job, Santi?

      • Santi 6.2.1

        Productive people, those who worked all their lives, are entitled to the NZ Super they paid for. Nothing wrong with that. On the other hand, the guys who did nothing….

        • Colonial Viper 6.2.1.1

          “worked all their lives”

          You wanting to guarantee life time employment now mate?

        • David H 6.2.1.2

          Santi you really are showing that the average IQ of a Nat supporter is about the same as a GNAT.

          So you are saying that whilst on a benefit I can’t work and try to help myself and my children. BUT when I turn 65 ALL the rules go out the window.

          Jesus H Christ save me from these mindless fools!

    • Great to read Santi’s comment re good to see benefit double dipping being addressed I also am glad that no tax evasion is being addressed. It is good to see that is not being curtailed either.

      Reasoning provided below:

      Either

      a) I am one of them

      Or

      b) Eyes beleeve I shall benefut from these peeples fourtunes cos thay told me they would giv mee somethink and they are important and powerfull peeples who are authorotative and i lissen to othorotative peeple cos they are powerfull peeple with lots of muny and that means they a good peeple cos muny is good and lots of muny is even gooder and eyes figures gooder meens that they have all tha good kwh..kwhot…koala-tees likes Onesty and kindness and jenerosity

      ….and anyways it maykes me feel powerfool to support the corze ….clawz…cawz of powerfool peeple cos i myte be rewardeed if i am good to them and thay mite shear sum of theyre paua wuth mee.

  7. muzza 7

    You left out the billions per year going down the drain in corporate deals, corporate friendly legislation, corporate bailouts, and independent consultants…

    That’s even before you factor in the BAU rip offs such as.

    – Above market hourly/daily rates
    – Long term contracts with little to no accountability
    – Awarding job role titles with higher pay bands/rates to unqualified/inexperienced staff/friends etc
    – Recruitment via *connected agencies* – not on the PSL
    – Poorly scoped business cases, including benefits which will never exist, nor be realized
    – Financial checks/balances not adhered to
    – Support agreements unmanaged, long term, and tied in for huge $$$

    etc
    etc
    etc

    Now apply that at local/regional/national level, include the police, judiciary, diplomatic rorts, and you would still not even be close to the numerical value, which is being stolen , each and every year!

    But sure, focus on $39m….Hey look, over there, bigfoot

  8. Colonial Viper 8

    Can someone link to an announcement by Labour slamming this “benefit fraud” spin as just that?

    For perspective, its equivalent to only 1%-2% of the total number of beneficiaries in Auckland. Sweet FA in other words.

    • fender 8.1

      Be patient mate……every roof needs inspecting before any announcement can be made.

    • “Social development spokesperson Jacinda Adern said anyone defrauding the system should face the consequences, but not all cases would be straightforward fraud.

      “Of course anyone who receives the benefit when they’re not entitled to that benefit is ultimately taking money away from those who need it most.”

      http://www.radionz.co.nz/news/national/214789/hundreds-of-wrongly-paid-benefits-cancelled

      This line is bogus imo “taking money away from those that need it most” unless she means middlenz which she probably does.

      • Santi 8.2.1

        Adern is correct. It’s is middle NZ who will move the country forward. No question about it.

        • marty mars 8.2.1.1

          forward to where or what exactly?

        • Mike S 8.2.1.2

          ‘Middle NZ’ ??

          That won’t exist mate.

          • Colonial Viper 8.2.1.2.1

            Capital isn’t being made available for productive, employing enterprises. Santi is probably talking about more middle class real estate investments.

          • Santi 8.2.1.2.2

            What are you proposing?

        • Draco T Bastard 8.2.1.3

          No, it’s middlenz which is holding NZ back seemingly at the request of the rich of NZ. If the beneficiaries and poor of NZ had access to the resources they need then NZ would be screaming ahead. Unfortunately, we’ve got a socio-economic system that hands all those resources to the rich and they don’t share.

          • Santi 8.2.1.3.1

            Sorry Draco, but your socialistic model hasn’t worked anywhere in the world. Utopia is still unreachable Utopia. Dreams are free.

            • marty mars 8.2.1.3.1.1

              What are you proposing?

            • Colonial Viper 8.2.1.3.1.2

              NZ ran a highly socialistic model between 1950 and 1970. Worked just fine. American visitors to our shores are routinely flabbergasted that we have a heavily communist healthcare system which manages to deliver far more patient benefits at a fraction of the cost of their one.

              So what is your problem?

              • Draco T Bastard

                His problem is the same one that all RWNJs have – reality not conforming to their delusion.

              • framu

                also america’s greatest increase in living standards ever was under a highly socialised govt system post WW2 – something the libitarians and free marketeers always forget

            • Draco T Bastard 8.2.1.3.1.3

              Actually, Santi, it hasn’t been tried.

        • Paul 8.2.1.4

          It’s just that neoliberalism is in the process of destroying the middle class in the US, UK and New Zealand.
          It benefits the 1%, Santi. Are you a supporter of them?

      • Colonial Viper 8.2.2

        “Social development spokesperson Jacinda Adern said anyone defrauding the system should face the consequences, but not all cases would be straightforward fraud.

        Ardern’s line is fucking useless. Let’s see how we can improve it:

        “…anyone defrauding the system should face the consequences, but let’s remember that tax evasion by companies, trusts and other entities costs society 30 times more than benefit fraud.”

        Ahhh that’s better. Was that so hard?

        • Chris 8.2.2.1

          The use of companies and trusts is not tax evasion if anything it is tax avoidance. There is a big difference. Tax evasion is the act of not declaring all of your income and the entities you describe don’t really assist in this. If people put all of their income in trusts they actually pay a higher tax rate than they would if they had it in their own name.

          • tracey 8.2.2.1.1

            Cant trusts gift to beneficiaries and the gifts attract no tax.

            no discussion of the black economy?

            • Chris 8.2.2.1.1.1

              They can but it makes no real difference to tax. They can only ‘gift’ (wrong word but same meaning) tax free items from capital (i.e. assets which have been gifted to them in the first place and income from prior years which the trust has already paid tax on). This would be the same if people held those assets in their own name and decided to gift them to their children or whoever.

              Any distributions of income will be taxed at the beneficiaries marginal tax rates. This is the main way they are used to lower tax – if the trust earns $140,000 it can distribute that to 2 beneficiaries and they will pay $28,040 in tax on that income whereas if the trust kept that income it would pay $46,200. This does create a tax saving but it also creates a real debt which the trust can be called to repay by the beneficiaries (i.e. if the marriage breaks up).

              You can call this tax avoidance if you would like but it hasn’t been considered that by governments or courts for over 100 years. I’m happy to admit there would be a reasonable argument for it being avoidance but that issue is simply not what is being meant when people talk about tax avoidance and particularly evasion.

              • felix

                You use the word “real” in an entirely arbitrary way Chris.

                You can’t simultaneously claim there is “no real difference” between two different numbers and then use the same word “real” to give weight to a theoretical debt.

                Totally disingenuous use of language. Everything you say is suspect.

                • Chris

                  I’m sorry if it came across that way but my writing skills have never been fantastic. I have to admit I’m not sure it’s a serious as you make it out to be. remove the word real and there is no difference to my point or statement.

                  Out of interest is there a grammar rule about using the same word in two different contexts in the same body of work. I would be surprised if there was

                  • Colonial Viper

                    Don’t blame your writing skills, blame the morality of your ideas.

                    You can call this tax avoidance if you would like but it hasn’t been considered that by governments or courts for over 100 years.

                    Laws for the rich are passed by whom? The rich.

                    • Chris

                      If he wad simply disagreeing with my viewpoint id be happy to blame the ‘morality’ of my ideas. however his point was focussed on a grammar ‘error’ and how that made my point suspect.

                      In response to your point trusts do have purposes beyond tax planning for poorer people. for example estate planning. Obviously it is not targeted at the poorest part of society but not every law needs to be

                    • Chris

                      If he was simply disagreeing with my viewpoint id be happy to blame the ‘morality’ of my ideas. however his point was focussed on a grammar ‘error’ and how that made my point suspect.

                      In response to your point trusts do have purposes beyond tax planning for poorer people. for example estate planning. Obviously it is not targeted at the poorest part of society but not every law needs to be

        • Santi 8.2.2.2

          J. Ardern espouses the correct line. Sorry, you are mistaken, CV.
          The eloquent and charismatic David Shearer and Jacinda will lead Labour to victory. Any problem?

        • Colonial Viper 8.2.2.3

          I’m referencing the graph at the top of the page. The bar is labelled “tax evasion”. That is what I am referring to.

    • Olwyn 8.3

      Not only that, it probably includes accidental overpayments and the like. The article looked to me to be based on a timely press release.

    • Mary 8.4

      And that’s assuming it is all fraud, which it isn’t so the percentage is even less.

  9. Mike S 9

    In 2010 the fraud intelligence unit within social welfare checked 29 million records and found the benefit fraud rate, as a percentage of total benefits paid was a massive 0.1% or 1 tenth of 1%. Hardly worth the amount of lip service given it by Nat politicians and by the mainstream media.

    An example to put benefit fraud in perspective would be the major foreign owned banks for instance. They finally agreed in late 2009 – and only after being pursued at great taxpayer expense through the courts by the IRD – to cough up $2.2 billion of what they owed and had refused to pay in unpaid taxes. I seem to remember there were a couple of columns in the herald and maybe a brief tv news soundbite on it. Compare that with the screaming front page headlines we get about benefit fraud.

    Info sourced from Werewolf – ten myths about welfare. Santi, this is a must read for you.and the likes of you.

    http://werewolf.co.nz/2011/02/ten-myths-about-welfare/

    • tracey 9.1

      Santi either will not read it or tell himself it is made up. When people buy the lies they are sold it is very hard for them to resile from tgeir stance without feeling stupid. Paradoxically they dont consider their pm to be stupid when he changes his stance. Which he has dobe alot.

    • tracey 9.2

      Santi either will not read it or tell himself it is made up. When people buy the lies they are sold it is very hard for them to resile from their stance without feeling stupid. Paradoxically they dont consider their pm to be stupid when he changes his stance. Which he has dobe alot.

  10. Lefty 10

    Employers defraud workers by many hundreds of millions of dollars every year through not giving legal paid breaks, altering time sheets, making workers do unpaid overtime if they want to keep their jobs, paying less than the minimum wage and a bunch of other nasty shit.

    I am not talking about a few little ethnic restaurants, here I am talking about major corporates and respectable small businesses.

    They do it because they can, because enforcement is difficult and because it is considered good business practice.

    The useless greedy fuckin parasites then go on to avoid paying tax on the money they have stolen from their workers.

    If the government wants to be consistent it will seek out the best and biggest benefit fraudsters and give them knighthoods.

    • DavidW 10.1

      That’s right Lefty, keep the hate going, you are going to need it to see you through to the election.

      Hopefully you will realise one day that the Class War is over and that employees by-and-large accept their conditions with intelligence and open minds. Sure there will always be some shitty employers and you must concede that there will always be some shitty and hopeless employees but the bulk of the population is well educated and has access to the means of making these matters public in a way and at a speed previously only dreamed of.

  11. BrucetheMoose 11

    Typical elitists attitude. If you drive the latest 5 Series, you are to be respected and have made good decisions – including employing a smart tax lawyer and accountant. Drive a tired looking Corolla, you have made poor decisions and are probably up to something dodgy – let’s beat ’em up.

    • Chris 12.1

      Nothing more needs to be said – as you have just shown the government is also going after tax evaders/avoiders. This is something that many people on this site seem to ignore.

      • Colonial Viper 12.1.1

        Not ignoring it mate, just putting it to scale.

        Tax avoidance causes losses to society 30x greater than benefit fraud.

        Sounds good when you say it out loud eh. “Thirty-times greater losses than benefit fraud.”

        • Chris 12.1.1.1

          The part you are ignoring is that the government is putting significant funds towards tracking down tax evaders. You cannot try and argue posts like this are framed in any other way.

          • Colonial Viper 12.1.1.1.1

            I’m not ignoring fuck all mate.

            Say it out loud: “Tax evasion costs society thirty times more than benefit fraud.”

          • tracey 12.1.1.1.2

            thanks for the link chris. i will try to find the report. if avoidance costs a billion a year then we are clawing ack about ten per cent pa. despite dunnes moaning he has done nothing to impact creating stigma on avoidance to even match the stigma attached to legitimate beneficiaries

      • tracey 12.1.2

        Not only was the GPF feature of the transactions unlawful and therefore correctly disallowed, all four transactions tested in the case “were tax avoidance arrangements entered into for the purpose of avoiding tax”

        chris which govt are you giving credit for chasing down the tax avoidance found to be evasion by tge banks? The case against westpac although decided in the high court in 2009 was begun in 2005.

        • Chris 12.1.2.1

          It’s not any specific government – it was done by the IRD under government policy which has not changed since National took over. There was little to no impact on the chasing of tax avoiders/evasion since the government changed. The only difference is National has closed some loopholes (such as LAQC’s and depreciation on rental buildings) and increased the audit budget for the IRD. I’m not saying the National government is any better – they are pretty much exactly the same

          • tracey 12.1.2.1.1

            You wrote “the government is also going after tax evaders/avoiders. This is something that many people on this site seem to ignore”. The example you made this comment to is not evidence the govt is also going after tax evaders. I havent seen any release to show success of this govt in this regard

              • muzza

                QE2 will be pleased with the extra 200m.

              • Bob

                You can’t post that here Chris!!! That doesn’t link up well to this story and the ‘National only out to help its rich mates’ at all! Shame on you, you RWNJ

                [lprent: *sigh*. Please don’t waste my time by phrasing it as a statement that looks like you are requesting my attention. Read the policy on wasting moderators time because if it happens too frequently, then I simplify my life by removing the waster of my time.

                BTW: Since I had to look at the post and comment to figure out if you had anything to complain about (you didn’t – you were just jerking off), and because it is clear that you are a complete fool….

                It appears that Peter Dunne is crowing over settling in 2 years about 20% of the estimated tax evasion from a single year. Reads to me like Dunne thinks that a 10% recovery rate of recovery is a success. Even worse, it reads like it is costing about ~20-25% of the recovered value to recover it. Moreover since most of the recovered value is likely to be penalties (ie not just the actual evasion), then it is likely that the tax evasion is that is detected and chased to successful conclusion is well below that 10%.

                Reads like a complete and utter failure to me. Makes me wonder if you have any idea on what you are waffling about since it appears that you think ~3-5% recovery is effective. ]

    • David H 12.2

      But I bet they Leave one ShonkeyJohns Tax haven/family trust well alone.

      http://www.nzherald.co.nz/business/news/article.cfm?c_id=3&objectid=10813402

  12. Descendant Of Sssmith 13

    Of course the framing is Intended to further demonise beneficiaries.

    In fact it is workers, the self employed, those in relationships, and the investors who are ripping off the benefit system.

    If you are working you are entitled to your wages and to be called a worker.
    If you have no entitlement to a benefit you cannot be by definition a beneficiary.

    Remember too this fraud will include those working accessing assistance for accommodation and medical costs.

    If you add those numbers into the calculation of those getting a benefit the numbers will be even smaller.

    Most people getting assistance from the state have paid taxes and contributed to the government in order to get this help, most are on a benefit short-term, most are honest.

    By most I mean the vast majority.

    Yay too that women have choices now about not having to be dependant on abusive violent men and are able to get out of those relationships more easily.

  13. big bruv 14

    I applaud the government for going after these benefit bludging parasites. The fact that so many in this thread seem happy to have low life stealing from their fellow tax payers is one of the reasons that there will not be another left wing government in this country.

    The average bloke is sick of working 50+ hours a week to feed his family only to see bludgers and DPB breeders ripping off the system.

    I hope the Nat’s prosecute as many of them as possible, send a message to these losers that they need to pull their weight and that stealing from the tax payer will not be tolerated.

    • Descendant Of Sssmith 14.1

      Nah the average bloke’s not cause the average bloke has a degree of empathy and intelligence that is absent from people like you and the views that you profess to have.

      • big bruv 14.1.1

        The average bloke cannot abide parasites. The average bloke realises that the government has no money and that what these parasites are stealing comes from his own pocket.

        • framu 14.1.1.1

          Ok – can we take it that you also point thy finger or wrath at the tax evaders?

          you know – the ones in the chart above that far outstrip the benefit fraud who hate so

          ie: not avoiders – evaders – those commiting tax fraud

        • muzza 14.1.1.2

          BB, you are really not a very good trool are you!

          Do you consider yourself to be the, average bloke?

          Let me state what I can’t abide by – Lies, spin, fraud, corruption, manufactured scarcity, statistics manipulation, private monetary supply, governments agents masquerading as NZ’ers, corporate welfare, employer welfare, corporatization of governments departments, cronyism, nepotism, police brutality, judicial corruption, independent reviews, privatization, out-sourcing, PPP’s, private prisons, tax havens, blind trusts, CERA, commissioners, regressive taxation, stealth tax, attacks on teachers/education, love of money, money as god, profit over people, dehumanization, greed, ignorance, ….(I could go all day).

          The thing I cant stand most of all, are those who are part of what has made this country sick, people like you, who are either paid to peddle their idiocy, or are actually are so ignorant, that they believe it, which are you?

          Either way, attitudes such as yours, be it manufactured or real, will be taking us all down, and that includes yourself, your family and friends, so you better wise up sunshine. We are all on the chopping block, and it won’t be those who are on benefits that lower the boom!

        • David H 14.1.1.3

          And I (an average bloke) can’t abide Mindless Morons commenting here… But C’est la vie We still have you and Santi. So people just don’t always get what they want.

        • Draco T Bastard 14.1.1.4

          That would indicate that the average bloke is ignorant of where money comes from, doesn’t understand that taxes are payment for services rendered and that not paying taxes is outright theft.

        • Rosetinted 14.1.1.5

          bb
          The average bloke just goes around doing stuff and earning money and not thinking too much at all and considers he understands the world he lives in.

          The money system seems to him to be something that has been created by nature and people just tweak it. The society around him, its buildings, like – they just grew up out of the ground.

          The average bloke doesn’t attempt to understand the way the system works except the bit that spoons money into his pocket and petrol into his vehicle and liquor into his mouth. Just lives like a mosquito, existing but knowing nothing about all the complexities affecting the humans it lives off.

          You would say that applies to beneficiaries, I say it applies to you, a beneficiary of the system you make your living in. You are a parasite as much as anyone on social welfare because you just want to draw out, and have the means to put back in, but don’t want to.

      • Mike S 14.1.2

        “the average bloke has a degree of empathy and intelligence”

        I used to think that but am not so sure these days, especially the empathy.

    • Paul 14.2

      So you also approve of government’s going after tax bludgers like Starbucks, Google, Amazon etc. As the amounts are so much larger I welcome hearing that you support the government prioritising getting fair laws on tax multinational corporations.
      Or do you just favour attacking the poor?

      • big bruv 14.2.1

        No Paul, I favour going after bludgers and parasites, those who steal from other hard working blokes.

        I understand that your faux concern is politically motivated; you would rather that these parasites go unpunished just as long as they keep voting for the left.

        • Paul 14.2.1.1

          In answer to your comment to dss, Governments don’t have money because they don’t collect taxes from rogue corporations and they give tax cuts to the wealthy. Hence the trills in offshore tax havens.

          In response to your comment above, do you consider multinationals who don’t pay taxes bludgers? Not clear from your comment? Or companies that underpay their workers, thereby stealing from hardworking men and women? Or do you just see the poor as bludgers?

          Please do not presume my motivations or politics; I can tell you that I am concerned about the fate about other people than myself. Neoliberal economics and Ayn Rand’s philosophy and obsession about the selfish individual is not part of my motivation.
          What motivates you to support the 1% so consistently?

        • muzza 14.2.1.2

          BB, you’re talking nonsense, and I hope for your sake, you understand that, as if you don’t, well you probably don’t understand much above primary school level!

          Your comments represent no-one other than yourself, and they speak volumes, well done!

          Parasites indeed!

    • framu 14.3

      “bludgers”

      ahem – something about a bet and a debt?

    • One Anonymous Knucklehead 14.4

      So, Big Bruv, are you saying they are right down there with Graham Capill, David Garret and John Banks? Or slightly higher up?

    • tracey 14.5

      But it is tolerated… average blokes doing cash jobs are also stealing from taxpayers… banks steal unless and until caught along with thousands of individuals and businesses. More than a billion a year but you are not outraged. Ever done a cash job or paid cash for one bruv? If you have you have stolen from law abiding tax payers

  14. big bruv 15

    No, right down there with Chris Carter and Helen Clark….oh and David (I forgot about my 50K) Shearer.

    • Santi 15.1

      Only 50K? Looks more and more like 500K US Dollars. David is rich, very rich.

      • Paul 15.1.1

        Trolls out early this morning.

      • tricledrown 15.1.2

        santi you grinch if thats rich by your standards you must be poor!

        he wouldn’t make it in National or Act!

        You are a philistine judging people by what they earn!

    • One Anonymous Knucklehead 15.2

      You’re just letting your political bias twist the facts there, Bruv: Clark, Carter and Shearer still hold high office, unlike disgraced child molesters and identity thieves, like Capill and Garret. There’s no comparison.

    • Rosetinted 15.3

      I think The Standard has a very therapeutic role for BB and Chris – it allows them to vent their acidic and unhealthy opinions and stops a build up of bile in their bodies. One shouldn’t take them seriously though and waste time trying to present a case that differs from their diatribes.

      That’s my decision anyway. I have a toy parrot in bright colours that will repeat what it has heard when you press its button. It has a purpose of being amusing and colourful and BB and Chris are neither. They aren’t funny, just dismal and its depressing when you think they are examples of a signicant group in NZ. Parroting disgust and dislike against their fellows.

      Probably applies to these – Santi BB Chris KK. ?

  15. bad12 16

    The facts,even admitted to by the likes of Associate Minister Burrows is that very few of these supposed bludging rip-ripoffs will be in court facing charges of benefit fraud,

    WHY NOT you may ask, simple, because a failure to declare the correct amount of income earned while a person is in receipt of a benefit IS NOT fraud, and there are a myriad reasons why the incorrect data has been recorded at WINZ including the loss of paperwork which can and does occur at all WINZ offices,

    A large % of what has been announced will simply become a matter of collecting monies back from beneficiaries where a slight over-payment based upon what the beneficiary is allowed to earn, ($100 per week), has been previously incorrectly assessed at the WINZ office,

    As has occurred in the past 10% of this recently announced ‘fraud’ will be shown to be actual fraudulent behavior on the part of Beneficiaries deliberately working ‘full-time’ while in receipt of a benefit,

    There is a growing disquiet among the middle class about the ‘welfare reforms’ as they see the effects begin to take effect upon their kids and National have resorted again to ‘attacking’ all such over and mis-payment in a manner that insinuates that all of this is criminal,

    A big UP’S has to go to Labour’s Jacinda Adhern who this week has been quoted in a number of media out-lets deliberately comparing the $$$ amounts of such supposed ‘fraud’ with the amount of tax evasion/avoidance undertaken by those at the other end of the financial spectrum…

  16. tracey 17

    Chris my problem is that trusts h ave been exploited to become a tax avoidance tool.sadly the powers that be and those they socialise with are served by the exploitation. Trusts were intended to protect the vulnerable. Those days are long gone. If tax avoidance and evasion were indeed a priority changing the law around what a trust can be used for and apply it retrospectively. Self interest continues to rule.

    • Chris 17.1

      I agree that is an issue however trusts do still serve a vital role in estate planning and asset protection for a lot of average families. They definitely can be used by criminals and for tax avoidance however I honestly think they do more good than harm.

      That is definitely just my opinion though and I can see the otherside of the argument but I just dont agree

  17. tracey 18

    Perhaps borrows will release the info on how much is due to winz errors… and how much fraud is committed by staff

  18. tracey 19

    If individuals couldnt hide behind trusts and if commit wrongs… contractual… tortious and their assets were at stake how much more careful might they be in words and deeds.

  19. Bob 20

    Here you go: http://www.stuff.co.nz/business/budget-2013/8681190/IRD-to-target-property-investors “Since 2010, IRD has increasingly chased tax on property investment, in particular where land is acquired for the purpose of reselling it. Such activity is generally taxed, unlike most capital gains on property investment. According to Mr Dunne, about $110 million has been raised from additional property audit funding at IRD since mid-2010.”

    And: http://www.stuff.co.nz/business/8745996/IRD-joins-offshore-tax-crackdown “The scope of the IRD’s investigation would also capture advisers, such as lawyers and accountants, who actively manage or promote schemes designed to rort the tax system through the use of overseas structures.”

  20. Bob 21

    Just noticed as well, according to the graph shown above, and the link provided there is only $5.3M worth of benefit fraud left to track down, so don’t worry, this is the last time they can use the benefit fraud card according to your own sources.

  21. jaymam 22

    When I volunteered to help the CBU, I took on the case of a beneficiary who according to WINZ had fraudulently accepted $24,000. She had been paid a small weekly amount for helping handicapped kids in an institution. I checked all the figures and the law and got the amount owed down to about nothing. Much of the money beneficiaries allegedly owe is becuase of mistakes by WINZ or because of the usual time delays when getting or losing jobs.

    • lprent 22.1

      Having helped out a number of people or talked to a number of people (mostly DPB) who have had this “overpayment” issue with WINZ over the decades, I have come to suspect that the fault is always with WINZ.

      In many of the ones I know about it has been obvious both to the lawyer(s) AND WINZ when they (finally) looked at the file that the problem didn’t exist at all or was minimal.

      In a couple of other ones, the problem is that WINZ hadn’t acted upon being told that there was a change in status that was listed in their own damn files. One also had a letter copy that they said they’d sent and had a response to, and which wasn’t in the WINZ file, but where the letter complaining that WINZ hadn’t

      Basically whenever anyone tells me that WINZ is chasing them for money, I tell them to assume that WINZ screwed it up again.

      Of course then there are the almost random way that WINZ just cut benefits without bothering to tell people that it is going to happen. Typically it will be the result of a letter going astray giving a date/time. But what gets me is that they don’t use the damn phone or email where the beneficiary had it available.

      The point about this is that I don’t need to use their services as I’ve never been unemployed for long enough to need it (or for that matter to get past the silly stand-down periods and other obstacles like their useless required courses). But I find it appalling that I’m paying for a safety net that is effectively useless at the purpose. They seem to spend way way more effort on stupidly screwing up peoples lives than they do on the task that they are charged with.

      I think that it’d almost be worth taking a series of class actions against the ministry to encourage them improve their systems.

      • Murray Olsen 22.1.1

        My educated guess would put WINZ fault at about 95%. I used to act as a beneficiary advocate years ago and it was about 90% then. I doubt if it’s improved at all.

        What’s required to take a class action?

Recent Comments

Recent Posts

  • New South Wales travel pause to be lifted tomorrow
    COVID-19 Response Minister Chris Hipkins says the current travel pause with New South Wales will lift tomorrow – subject to no further significant developments in NSW. “New Zealand health officials met today to conduct a further assessment of the public health risk from the recently identified COVID-19 community cases in Sydney. It has been determined that the risk to public ...
    BeehiveBy beehive.govt.nz
    14 hours ago
  • March 15 Collective Impact Board appointed
    The voices of those affected by the March 15 mosque attacks will be heard more effectively with the establishment of a new collective impact board, Associate Minister for Social Development and Employment Priyanca Radhakrishnan announced today. Seven members of the Christchurch Muslim community have been appointed to the newly established Board, ...
    BeehiveBy beehive.govt.nz
    22 hours ago
  • More young Kiwis supported with mental health and addiction services
    Nearly quarter of a million more young New Zealanders will have access to mental health and addiction support in their communities as the Government’s youth mental health programme gathers pace. New contracts to expand youth-specific services across the Northland, Waitematā and Auckland District Health Board areas have been confirmed, providing ...
    BeehiveBy beehive.govt.nz
    2 days ago
  • New hospital facilities mean fewer trips to Auckland for Northlanders
    Northlanders will no longer automatically have to go to Auckland for lifesaving heart procedures like angiograms, angioplasty and the insertion of pacemakers, thanks to new operating theatres and a cardiac catheter laboratory opened at Whangārei Hospital by Health Minister Andrew Little today. The two projects – along with a new ...
    BeehiveBy beehive.govt.nz
    2 days ago
  • Fair Pay Agreements to improve pay and conditions for essential workers
    The Government is delivering on its pre-election commitment to implement Fair Pay Agreements which will improve wages and conditions, as well as help support our economic recovery, Workplace Relations and Safety Minister Michael Wood announced today. Fair Pay Agreements will set minimum standards for all employees and employers in an ...
    BeehiveBy beehive.govt.nz
    2 days ago
  • Establishment of the new Māori Health Authority takes first big step
    Sir Mason Durie will lead a Steering Group to provide advice to the Transition Unit on governance arrangements and initial appointments to an interim board to oversee the establishment of the Māori Health Authority. This Group will ensure that Māori shape a vital element of our future health system, Minister ...
    BeehiveBy beehive.govt.nz
    2 days ago
  • Cycle trails move up a gear in Central
    Work on new and upgraded cycle trails in Queenstown, Arrowtown and Central Otago is moving up a gear as two significant projects pass further milestones today. Tourism Minister Stuart Nash has announced new funding for the Queenstown Trails Project, and will also formally open the Lake Dunstan Trail at Bannockburn ...
    BeehiveBy beehive.govt.nz
    2 days ago
  • Picton ferry terminal upgrade consent fast-tracked
    The planned upgrade of the Waitohi Picton Ferry terminal has been approved under the fast-track consenting process.  Environment Minister David Parker today welcomed the decision by the expert consenting panel to approve the Waitohi Picton Ferry Precinct Redevelopment Project.    The project will provide a significant upgrade to the ferry facilities ...
    BeehiveBy beehive.govt.nz
    3 days ago
  • Quarantine Free Travel with New South Wales paused
    COVID-19 Response Minister Chris Hipkins has announced his intention to pause Quarantine Free Travel from New South Wales to New Zealand while the source of infection of the two cases announced in Sydney in the last two days is investigated.  Whole genome sequencing has linked the case yesterday to a recent ...
    BeehiveBy beehive.govt.nz
    3 days ago
  • Covid-19 immigration powers to be extended
    The passing of a bill to extend temporary COVID-19 immigration powers means continued flexibility to support migrants, manage the border, and help industries facing labour shortages, Immigration Minister Kris Faafoi said. “Over the past year, we’ve made rapid decisions to extend visas, vary visa conditions and waive some application requirements ...
    BeehiveBy beehive.govt.nz
    3 days ago
  • “Supporting a Trade-Led Economic Recovery”
    Trade Policy Road Show SpeechManukau, Auckland   Kia ora koutou – nau mai, haere mai ki Manukau, ki Tāmaki.   Good morning everyone, and thank you for this opportunity to discuss with you current global challenges, opportunities and the Government’s strategy in support of a trade-led recovery from the economic ...
    BeehiveBy beehive.govt.nz
    3 days ago
  • Building consent numbers at an all-time high
    A record 41,028 new homes have been consented in the year ended March 2021 March 2021 consent numbers the highest since the 1940s Record number of new homes consented in Auckland The number of new homes consented is at an all-time high, showing a strong and increasing pipeline of demand ...
    BeehiveBy beehive.govt.nz
    3 days ago
  • Whānau-centred support for parents and tamariki
    Up to 60 whānau in Counties Manukau will be supported through the first three years of their parenthood by a new whānau-centred model of care, said Associate Health Minister, Hon Aupito William Sio. “Providing this support to young parents is something we have to get right. It’s a priority both ...
    BeehiveBy beehive.govt.nz
    3 days ago
  • NZ backs moves to improve global access to COVID vaccines
    New Zealand welcomes and strongly supports the announcement made by the United States Trade Representative to work for a waiver of IP protections on COVID-19 vaccines at the WTO, Trade Minister Damien O’Connor said. “New Zealand supports equitable access to COVID vaccines for all. No one is safe from the ...
    BeehiveBy beehive.govt.nz
    3 days ago
  • Tourism communities: support, recovery and re-set plan
    TIHEI MAURI ORA Tuia te whakapono Tuia te tumanako Tuia te aroha Tuia te hunga ora Ki te hunga ora Tihei Mauri ora Ka nui te mihi ki a koutou Tena koutou, tena koutou, tena koutou katoa. Thank you, Hilary and thank you, Chris, and everyone at TIA for this ...
    BeehiveBy beehive.govt.nz
    3 days ago
  • Support, recovery and re-set plan for tourism communities
    Five South Island tourist communities targeted for specialist support Pressure on Māori tourism operators and Conservation facilities recognised Domestic and international-facing tourism agencies put on more secure footing Long-term plan to re-set tourism with a focus on sustainability, industry standards and regional economic diversification A plan to ensure the immediate ...
    BeehiveBy beehive.govt.nz
    3 days ago
  • Speech on NZ Rail Plan
    Check against delivery E ngā mana, e ngā reo, e ngā karanga maha o te wa, tēnā koutou, tēnā koutou, tēnā tātou katoa. Ki ngā mana whenua o Taranaki Whānui anō nei aku mihi ki a koutou. Nōku te hōnore kia haere mai ki te whakanuia tēnei huihuinga whakahirahira. Nō ...
    BeehiveBy beehive.govt.nz
    3 days ago
  • Government hits massive milestone in Violence Prevention & Elimination
    Minister for Family and Sexual Violence Marama Davidson announced a major milestone at a hui in South Auckland today, with the launch of the national engagement process on the prevention and elimination of family and sexual violence. “There is no room for violence in our lives – there is no ...
    BeehiveBy beehive.govt.nz
    3 days ago
  • Fee waiver extended for conservation tourism businesses
    Tourism businesses operating on public conservation land will have another six months of fees waived to help them adjust to the downturn in international visitors in the wake of the COVID-19 pandemic, Acting Minister of Conservation Dr Ayesha Verrall has announced. "We acknowledge it has been a difficult year for ...
    BeehiveBy beehive.govt.nz
    3 days ago
  • ‘Lua Wave’ to future-proof Pasifika Festivals in Aotearoa
    Pasifika festival organisers will receive additional support to adapt to the COVID-19 environment thanks to the Government’s newly launched ‘Lua Wave’ component of the Pasifika Festivals Initiative, Minister for Arts, Culture and Heritage Carmel Sepuloni announced today. “This initiative has not only been to support festival organisers to recover from ...
    BeehiveBy beehive.govt.nz
    3 days ago
  • Crown accounts show confidence in Govt economic plan
    The Government’s financial accounts continue to reflect the resilience of the economy and confidence in the Government’s economic recovery plan. The Crown accounts for the nine months to the end of March 2021 show both OBEGAL and the operating balance remain better than forecast in the Half Year Economic and ...
    BeehiveBy beehive.govt.nz
    3 days ago
  • Energy Trusts of NZ Autumn Conference
    It’s a pleasure to be here today. Thank you Karen [Sherry] for the introduction and thanks to the Energy Trusts Executive for inviting me to speak at tonight’s event. It is an exciting time to come to speak to trustees of distribution companies. For many decades the electricity industry was ...
    BeehiveBy beehive.govt.nz
    3 days ago
  • New partnership to grow Māori success in STEM
    A new partnership with the Pūhoro STEM Academy will support thousands more rangatahi Māori to participate and succeed in the fields of science, technology, and innovation, Associate Education Minister Kelvin Davis announced today. Since 2016, Pūhoro has worked with Māori students to build their capability and create pathways to employment ...
    BeehiveBy beehive.govt.nz
    3 days ago
  • Rail builds platform for economic recovery
    Transport Minister Michael Wood and State-Owned Enterprises Minister Dr David Clark today released the Government’s long term vision for a sustainable rail network that supports our economic recovery. New Zealand Rail Plan lays out how the Government is building a resilient, reliable and safe network, as well as the indicative ...
    BeehiveBy beehive.govt.nz
    3 days ago
  • NZ and UK agree to lift the pace of free trade talks
    New Zealand and the United Kingdom have agreed to rapidly lift the tempo of talks, as the two countries enter a new phase in free trade negotiations, Trade and Export Growth Minister Damien O’Connor announced today. “UK Secretary of State for International Trade, Liz Truss, and I spoke today about ...
    BeehiveBy beehive.govt.nz
    3 days ago
  • Counter-Terrorism Legislation Bill passes first reading
    The Counter-Terrorism Legislation Bill has passed its first reading and will now be considered by Parliament’s Justice select committee. “The Bill updates and improves New Zealand’s counter-terrorism legislation and ensures that the right legislative tools are available to intervene early and prevent harm,” Minister of Justice Kris Faafoi said. “The ...
    BeehiveBy beehive.govt.nz
    3 days ago
  • Statement on The Speaker and Annual Review Debate
    “The serious issue of alleged sexual assault and harassment at Parliament was poorly managed and inappropriately politicised last night. The tone of the debate did not reflect well on Parliament as a whole,” Prime Minister Jacinda Ardern said. “Any investigation of claims of sexual assault should be in a manner ...
    BeehiveBy beehive.govt.nz
    4 days ago
  • Govt motoring towards zero-carbon buses and protecting drivers’ conditions
    Transport Minister Michael Wood is seeking feedback on options for the next phase of the Public Transport Operating Model (PTOM) review to better protect bus drivers’ pay conditions, and also achieving the Government’s target of fully decarbonising the public transport bus fleet by 2035. Michael Wood said investing in our ...
    BeehiveBy beehive.govt.nz
    4 days ago
  • Drop in unemployment shows Govt economic plan is working
    The Government’s economic recovery plan continues to be reflected in the labour market, with more people in work and unemployment falling. Stats NZ figures show employment rose by 15,000 in the March quarter, with 14,000 more women in work. The unemployment rate fell from 4.9 percent to 4.7 percent. This ...
    BeehiveBy beehive.govt.nz
    4 days ago
  • Government sets pay and workforce expectations for the Public Sector
    The Government’s Workforce Policy Statement issued today sets out its expectations for pay and employment relations in the Public Sector, the Minister of Finance and Minister for the Public Service say. “New Zealand has had an exceptionally successful health and economic response to COVID-19. This has been supported by the ...
    BeehiveBy beehive.govt.nz
    4 days ago
  • Author Ben Brown is New Zealand’s first Te Awhi Rito Reading Ambassador
    Lyttleton writer Ben Brown (Ngāti Mahuta, Ngāti Koroki, Ngāti Paoa) will be New Zealand’s first Te Awhi Rito Reading Ambassador, promoting the value of reading for children and young people, Internal Affairs Minister Jan Tinetti announced today. A poet and award-winning author, Ben Brown writes books, non-fiction and short stories ...
    BeehiveBy beehive.govt.nz
    5 days ago
  • Celebrating New Zealand’s firefighters this International Firefighters’ day
    With two fire stations already complete, and building underway on 16 fire stations around the country, today we celebrate International Firefighters’ Day for the important role firefighters have in keeping communities across the country safe, says Minister of Internal Affairs, Jan Tinetti. The work is progressing due to Government funding ...
    BeehiveBy beehive.govt.nz
    5 days ago
  • Ron Brierley knighthood to go
    Ron Brierley has written to the Clerk of the Executive Council to tender his resignation as a Knight Bachelor. The Queen has been informed. The forfeiture follows the Prime Minister initiating the process to remove his Knighthood. The Clerk of the Executive Council wrote to him on 6 April 2021 ...
    BeehiveBy beehive.govt.nz
    5 days ago
  • Employment boost for rural communities
    The Government is continuing to create opportunities for at-risk rangatahi overcome barriers to employment, education or training with the next tranche of He Poutama Rangatahi programmes, Minister for Social Development and Employment Carmel Sepuloni announced today. “We’re focused on supporting rangatahi to get what they need to progress in the ...
    BeehiveBy beehive.govt.nz
    5 days ago
  • Pre-Budget speech to Wellington Chamber of Commerce
    Thank you for the invitation to speak today, it is great to be here.  I mean that both sincerely and literally. For this equivalent speech last year I took part virtually, beaming in from the Beehive Theatrette with only a socially distanced press gallery bearing silent witness. You are a ...
    BeehiveBy beehive.govt.nz
    5 days ago
  • Budget 2021 reprioritises nearly $1 billion
    The Government’s strong pandemic response and the better than expected economic recovery means not all the money allocated in the COVID-19 Response and Recovery Fund has been spent, Grant Robertson said in his annual pre-Budget speech to the Wellington Chamber of Commerce this morning. “As part of Budget preparation I ...
    BeehiveBy beehive.govt.nz
    5 days ago
  • Speech on Digital Identity Trust Framework
    I'd like to start by thanking Graeme, David and Ben from NZTech and Digital Identity New Zealand for inviting me to speak to you. I’m so sorry I can’t be there in person, but I want to acknowledge those of you who are, including some of this country’s top tech ...
    BeehiveBy beehive.govt.nz
    6 days ago
  • NZ Cook Islands travel bubble significant step in COVID-19 recovery
    New Zealand Prime Minister Jacinda Ardern and Cook Islands Prime Minister Mark Brown have today announced that, pending final confirmation by New Zealand’s Director-General of Health and the Cook Islands Secretary of Health, two-way quarantine-free travel will commence between the two countries on 17 May (NZT). “Two way quarantine-free travel ...
    BeehiveBy beehive.govt.nz
    6 days ago
  • Minister for State Owned Enterprises saddened by passing of KiwiRail Chair
    Minister for State Owned Enterprises, David Clark is deeply saddened to hear about the passing of KiwiRail Chairman, Brian Corban. “I know Brian was seen as a transformative leader within KiwiRail, well respected for his wisdom, honesty and sense of humour,” said David Clark. Mr Corban served as Chair of ...
    BeehiveBy beehive.govt.nz
    6 days ago
  • Speech to the China Business Summit by the Minister for Trade and Export Growth
      Distinguished guests, ladies and gentlemen.  Tena koutou katoa.  Good morning. It is my pleasure to join you today for this China Business Summit – my first as Minister for Trade and Export Growth as well as Minister of Agriculture – and to have the opportunity to speak to you ...
    BeehiveBy beehive.govt.nz
    6 days ago