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The Kim Hill/Kathleen Stock interview

Written By: - Date published: 10:44 am, May 14th, 2022 - 122 comments
Categories: feminism, gender critical feminism - Tags: , , ,

RNZ,

Kathleen Stock was a professor of philosophy at the University of Sussex for 18 years, but quit her post last year amid angry protests over her views on gender and transgender rights. In her book Material Girls: Why Reality Matters for Feminism, Stock writes on her belief that biological sex is immutable and cannot be changed, therefore people that choose to transition genders are living in “immersive fiction”.

Stock, who describes herself as a gender non-conforming lesbian, says questions about sex and gender are deeply philosophical, but people – including academics – are scared to talk about it due to the toxicity that surrounds the debate.

Long interview by Kim Hill on Saturday Morning,

 

Mod note: please pay attention to the Standard’s Policy.

We encourage robust debate and we’re tolerant of dissenting views. But this site run for reasonably rational debate between dissenting viewpoints and we intend to keep it operating that way.

What we’re not prepared to accept are pointless personal attacks, or tone or language that has the effect of excluding others. We are intolerant of people starting or continuing flamewars where there is little discussion or debate. This includes making assertions that you are unable to substantiate with some proof (and that doesn’t mean endless links to unsubstantial authorities) or even argue when requested to do so.

122 comments on “The Kim Hill/Kathleen Stock interview ”

  1. Anker 1

    Thanks for the article. I was just going to post this.

    Kathleen Stock was outstanding. kH didn’t go softly softly. She has apparently referred to people on air as Terfs (used as a slur).

    finally the discussion we need to be having reaches Aotearoa

    • Molly 1.1

      Kathleen Stock was outstanding.

      Kim Hill demonstrated her limited knowledge of the topic, and brought up all the standard idiotic gotchas.

    • Ghostwhowalksnz 1.2

      Prof Stock is a philosophy professor and has no knowledge of medical gender issues so her claims ' her belief that biological sex is immutable and cannot be changed'

      Its complete fiction. Or in her subject area of 'fictive utterances' shes gone down her own rabbit hole

      Have you ever met a transgender person Anker or are you in this game for the beliefs

      • Molly 1.2.1

        At long last, amidst the usual, a point that can be discussed:

        ' …her belief that biological sex is immutable and cannot be changed'

        Can you explain how this is untrue?

        • Shanreagh 1.2.1.1

          I would be keen to see this as well.

          Please let us try to keep this on a philosophical level. Whether one has met a trans person does not mean anything…..we did not have to South Africa to know, or have an opinion, that racism/apartheid was evil, or to go to the top of a volcano to verify that it is erupting. This lived in experience as a counter argument is not very strong.

          Ghost Who Walks rather than talking about fiction and rabbit holes could you please put up the evidence that biological sex IS immutable and CAN be changed.

          Presumably this is in relation to hormones and genital altering surgery. Does this really change one's born biological sex? For instance in a field I have studied, criminology, it is posited that criminological traits hark back to born sex rather than subsequent taken sex. This was raised in relation to an assault recently….cannot find the link atm.

        • Questioning 1.2.1.2

          As a biomedical scientist, I'd love for you to explain how exactly biological sex is not immutable. Please elucidate.

        • Ghostwhowalksnz 1.2.1.3

          Me explain how its untrue ? She has zero medical expertise to make this claim. And she doesnt show its true.

          Shes obsessed by these trans men going into womens changing rooms. Its the old black people cant live in my suburb as I wont feel safe arguement. As always its prejudice dressed up with concern trolling

          • Molly 1.2.1.3.1

            "Me explain how its untrue ? "

            Well, yes. You were the one to claim: "Its complete fiction."

            I'm interested to find out why. Also, your explanation may be the one that makes it all clear for me and anyone else reading.

            Go ahead, the floor is all yours. yes

            In your own words, could you explain the 'complete fiction' reasoning in response to – "..biological sex is immutable and cannot be changed'.

            (Though I may have supplementary questions wink)

            • Ghostwhowalksnz 1.2.1.3.1.1

              https://www.theguardian.com/world/2016/jul/02/male-and-female-what-is-it-like-to-be-intersex

              Jack was born with both male and female anatomy, with ovarian and testicular tissue, and genitals that could belong to either a boy or a girl. He has one of at least 40 congenital variations, known collectively as disorders of sexual development (DSD), or intersex traits

              40 congentital variations …hmmm.

              • Anker

                How is this evidence you can change your sex, that biological sex isn't immutable? These are people born with congenitial variations. That is no proof that sex is immutable at all.

                I have to say I do respect that you are on this thread at least willing to engage. Forturnately you will find commenters here who are more polite than I tend to be

              • Molly

                Sorry – I thought you were going to explain how biological sex was not immutable and could be changed.

                But kudos for the link to Jenny (journalist, broadcaster and author) Kleeman's article.

                Are you introducing another scientific discussion – about whether human biological sex is binary?

                Cool. I'm up for that one too.

              • John

                Intersex is the 'I' in LGBTQIA+, trans is the 'T'. It's not helpful to conflate those. Those congenital variations all either have, or don't have, the y chromosome, the marker of a male body. The lives of people with DSDs (intersex) are without doubt often very difficult. But that is a completely different issue to that of trans people, as some intersex people, not appreciating their lives being conflated with the trans experience, have been at pains to point out.

          • As has been said before "I am not a vet but I know what a dog is" Also I am not a meteorologist but I know when its raining. As a woman I certainly know what a man is and I feel it is disingenous to not listen to real concerns of women over this issue.

            • Ghostwhowalksnz 1.2.1.3.2.1

              Appalling ignorance.

              95% of the trans people 'you pass in the street' you wouldnt know at all. any other naked prejudice thoughts you would like share . Better still FO

              [last change. I see any more abuse and you’re out for the day. If you’d bothered to put up any kind of argument or robust debate the FO stuff probably wouldn’t matter, but all I can see is you making unsubstantiated opinion and calling people names. Read the other mod note too – weka]

              • weka

                mod note.

                • Ghostwhowalksnz

                  Noted.

                  'I know what a dog is' about as low as it can get

                  • weka

                    again, explain your thinking. At this point I suspect you are misreading a comment, but I don’t really know. And please don’t selectively quote to misrepresent a comment.

              • John

                That's possibly true but 'passing on the street' is light-years from 'stripping off in a changing room while I'm naked'. I'm sure you appreciate the difference.

                In fact it's precisely the key difference between the Gender Critical claim to "keep intimate spaces single sex" and the trans activist claim that "They don't want us to exist". I don't actually know anyone who holds the belief that trans people "shouldn't exist". They just want them to use the right toilet.

          • Molly 1.2.1.3.3

            "Shes obsessed by these trans men going into womens changing rooms. "

            Small point, I know, but one that may help when you enter these discussions:

            No one cares about "trans men going into womens changing rooms" – because they are biological women. (Single-sex spaces, you see).

            Onwards and upwards.

            • Ghostwhowalksnz 1.2.1.3.3.1

              Stock made it a repeated point in the interview.

              Its the old prejudice dressed up as hygiene /safety concern trolling

              • Molly

                Slow down when you re-read what you wrote:

                "trans men going into womens changing rooms"

                And then consider that it may have been a gentle reminder that you have confused 'transmen' and 'transwomen'. Mis-gendered perhaps, but I don't care about that. Just improving your lexicon.

                Make sense now?

                "No one cares about "trans men going into womens changing rooms" – because they are biological women. (Single-sex spaces, you see)."

                • Ghostwhowalksnz

                  Pretentious much ? Play your little word games elsewhere

                  [I was willing to let this run in the interests of some kind of debate that explores the issues for all sides. But what I’ve seen from you is record player on repeat of assertions with very little in the way of argument or back up. I’ve also seen a fair amount of name calling. My suggestion is you start making actual arguments and being willing to back them up. If you continue with the name calling I will moderate, not least because it’s boring. But it also derails conversation. We’re here for the robust debate, you are welcome in that but you will have to lift your game – weka]

                  • Molly

                    Accurate use of words on a written discussion platform would be goal usually.

                    Maybe the embarrassment of an own-goal won't allow you to strive for it at the moment. It's OK. Maybe later.

                  • weka

                    mod note for you Ghostwhowalksnz

                    • Ghostwhowalksnz

                      Noted.

                      I object to others who use bullying and belittling word games under the guise of 'accurate meanings'

                    • weka []

                      then you will need to explain your thinking. If you want to accuse people of bullying then you need to demonstrate how what they are saying or doing is bullying. I think there’s more in debating the topics myself, and TS is still about robust debate, we’re not a finishing school where no-one can be rude.

              • weka

                she made a pertinent political point. The issue for GCFs re spaces isn't trans people per se. It's trans women and women's spaces and how self ID opens up women's spaces to any men.

                Gender ideologists who assert it's about trans people (i.e. it's transphobia and nothing else) are wrong.

              • Anker
                • Ghost I think your comment “the old prejudice dressed up as hygiene/safety concern trolling). I don’t think you have been taking in about how women feel about male bodied people in change rooms.

                Also any answer on whether it’s ok to have male bodied people in change rooms with girls teen girls? How does that sit with you

          • Anker 1.2.1.3.4

            It seems Ghostwhowalked you can't explain how it is not true that biological sex is immutable.

            Trans men or trans women going into women's change rooms?

            A lot of women don't want male bodied people in their change room. Do you think it is o.k for male bodied people to be going into change rooms where there are girls or teen girls?

          • Incognito 1.2.1.3.5

            She has zero medical expertise to make this claim.

            That line of reasoning results in exclusive and elitist debate in which only so-called experts are allowed to speak and only about their alleged or perceived area of expertise.

          • John 1.2.1.3.6

            Settingvthectrans issue aside for a moment, do you think women have a justified fear of predatory men?

      • Matt Percy 1.2.2

        If you listen to the interview she has a very wide knowledge on the subject and a nuanced perspective.

      • Anker 1.2.3

        Thanks to Shanreagh for suggesting we keep this debate to a philosophical or biological level. Otherwise I felt I was in danger of having to say "some of my best friends are trans". Because of course who I have and haven't met has nothing to do with your arguement that "biological sex in immutable and cannot be changed:" is untrue.

        Please I would be really interested to hear what has lead you to this conclusion

      • Psycho Milt 1.2.4

        "her belief that biological sex is immutable and cannot be changed"

        You don't need to be a philosophy professor, a medical doctor or a biologist to know that, when it comes to mammals, that isn't a belief – just a commonplace fact. On the plus side, if someone does find evidence that mammals can change sex, there'll be a Nobel Prize in it for them.

        • Sabine 1.2.4.1

          Yep that dude that impregnated the two incarcerated women in a Prison in the States would be a world sensation on the medical market if they were truly a women who would be able to not only produce sperm but also grow the penis and balls to deliver that sperm.

          But, instead they are just a male in a female prison.

          • The Al1en 1.2.4.1.1

            Genuine question – Any difference in attitude if trans women undergo sex change surgery and have no penis?

            • weka 1.2.4.1.1.1

              If you are talking about prison, I think it should be assessed on a case by case basis. Definitely no if there is a history of male sexual offending. Maybe if they medically/surgically transitioned previously, but I think they shouldn't be sharing a room with women if women don't want that. If that sounds harsh, I also think that TW should be provided with suitable facilities themselves. The upshot is stop trying to make women accommodate the changes to women's detriment. The onus is on society to sort this out, not expect women to suck it up.

              • The Al1en

                Reason I asked, I agree with the argument about no penises in changing rooms, prisons and not to diminish the previous – women's sports.

                TW prison is a good idea. Wouldn't have to be a large unit given the numbers involved. Maybe next door there could be a medical centre, and after a period of counselling, provide the surgeries and move them on to women's jails, if they don't mind sharing.

                • weka

                  if they set up a TW's prison, then that's where TW should go unless there is a compelling reason not to. The main issue I see is shortage of facilities, or a centralised facility whereby TW prisoners are moved away from family/community. These are issues for society to solve and should be what trans orgs are working on. They also tie into how we manage the justice system generally and what is fair and useful and what is not.

                  • The Al1en

                    Here I have points of difference.

                    In prisons, without seeing breakdowns on the number of trans women inmates with histories of previous male-female\trans women- female violence, it's unknown the proportion of risk involved (any idea for links?), so sure, case by case, because sure as there are those types out there, they'll also be trans from children, demure librarian stereotypes done for shoplifting or school secretary in for dodgy accounting, who without genitals, testosterone and a male psyche pose minimal threat being housed in a cell with biological women.

                    Changing rooms, dicks should never be a thing, all good, agreed. Post surgery is the tough one for me, and I haven't found the spot I'll land on yet. A bit of a reckon, but accepting there are trans women who pose no threat to biological women, there will be plenty of trans women who will be perfectly fine to be around as they change into a swimsuit or try a skirt on, but as you rightfully say, there will also be those creeps and abusers with opportunities. The dilemma being there are biological women who are creeps and abusers, too, so the risk, however great/small or magnified under discussion, is managed anyway. I don't know if numbers exist to support a theory, and correction will show a truth, but the number of men prepared to undergo life changing, irreversible surgery to get a thrill must be very small.

                    • Psycho Milt

                      This is why it makes the most sense to make single-sex spaces genuinely single-sex. No male offender of any description belongs in a women's prison. If men's prisons are particularly unsafe for some male offenders, deal with that issue as its own issue rather than trying to pass the buck for women to deal with.

                    • Sabine

                      The number of men cutting their of their meat n two veggie to fashion a roastbeef sandwich are is very small.

                      Most transwomen are entire male.

                      https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC6626314/#:~:text=Transgender%20women%20report%20bottom%20surgery,%25%20(7%2C9).

                      Transgender women report bottom surgery at rates between 5–13%

                      but more 'desire' it but chances are wont cut their dicks of cause that is painful and really does impact having a sexual life.

                      Even more transgender women desire bottom surgery in the future: between 45–54%

                      and fwiw you don't need to have anything done to fall under the trans mantle and for self id. Which is the problem that we have. Any male can at any time decide to be a women via self id and there is nothing any non male can do to keep them out of their single sex spaces.

                      What is a women? A thing that anyone can be and define as they wish.

                    • John

                      About 95% of sexual offending against women is perpetrated by men. The justice system already has to make provision for the small number of women are a threat to other women in prison.

                      Whether or not a trans woman has had surgery to remove all male genitalia, I have yet to see a persuasive argument to place a trans woman in a women's unit rather than a trans unit.

                • Molly

                  AFAIK, the LA prison unit for men who are vulnerable in different ways to do with sexuality and gender identity, are housed together with or without genital reassignment surgery. I've posted a link to Youtube below:

                  If you are familiar with the concept of Chesterton's Fence, I think it is worthwhile applying it when making changes to existing single-sex spaces.

                  Some of the reasons may be – but not limited to:

                  1. Possibility of sexual or physical assault,
                  2. Sex difference in ability to defend against assault,
                  3. Female body requirements in terms of provision for, accommodation of, and privacy needs.
                  4. Recognition of trauma triggers for women prisoners that most likely has resulted from an assault by a male person.

                  I'm sure that NZ could do better than this, but these inmates seem to appreciative of their unit within the men's prison estate.

                  • weka

                    male only?

                    • Molly

                      Biological sex = male? Yes.

                      There's a few newspaper articles if you Google K6G, but below there's a link to an interesting academic article on the unit.

                      Particularly noting the comment about how the culture within the unit is noticeably supportive and community minded compared to the main unit:

                      The second model, found in K6G, is free of any hypermasculinity imperative. In K6G, one instead finds a surprising sense of relative ease, along with open emotional expression, the overt development of mutually supportive friendships and intimate relationships, and demonstrations of creativity and even levity. One also finds in K6G a collective and determined rejection of any efforts to introduce into the unit either the gang code in force in the rest of the Jail or the racial segregation that goes with it. What explains the difference?

                      https://escholarship.org/uc/item/1nj605jk

                  • Sabine

                    are they receiving medical attention, i.e. estrogen supplements and such? that might account for them being less 'hyper masculine"?

                    • Molly

                      I don't know. The paper is pretty long, and I haven't read it completely through. The title suggests its focus is on the masculinity aspect between K6G and the general population rather than the details of care:

                      TWO MODELS OF THE PRISON: ACCIDENTAL HUMANITY AND HYPERMASCULINITY IN THE L.A. COUNTY JAIL.

                      But it seems another definite point in favour of a dedicated unit in the men's prison estate. ie. A dedicated unit can have associated medical professionals that are knowledgeable about gender associated hormones and surgeries and so can provide better healthcare.

                    • weka

                      the paper has no keyword search results for hormone or medical. My guess is that it's the change of environment. Also guessing that most of the men are gay not trans, so no need for hormone treatment (and hoping that the trans people feel more able to be who they are without meds).

                    • Sabine

                      Molly and Weka, thanks for your points.

                • John

                  Why should women ever be required to concede their space when the actual threat to trans women is from men?

            • Molly 1.2.4.1.1.2

              Genuine answer:

              In what regard? The impact on women and girls in accommodation of trans identified males goes from absolutely non-existent to the complete removal of boundaries depending on situation and context.

              The further impact of allowing self-id only as a method to be included in any accommodations, means another layer of discourse is necessary.

              (There are impacts on trans identified females as well.)

              And thanks for the question.

            • Sabine 1.2.4.1.1.3

              Genuine answer: No.

              What I would like to see is a discussion about how Trans identified people can be accommodated without removing rights from women and men who wish or need for their own psychological reason spaces to their own sex.

              Molly has posted a thing the other day about a Trans section in a prison. I would prefer we would do that. Just as an example.

              At the moment we do nothing, but pit two classes of people against each other and neither one is winning or getting anything good out of it.

              Last, the needs of transwomen are very different to those of women, physically, mentally they are the opposite of women, and will need care for the rest of their lifes. And we can not pretend that that is not a truth, a fact.

              edit:
              In fact, if we could elevate Trans identified people as a ‘third’ gender, we could maybe finally start dismantling the dreaded stereotypes many if not most of us – irrespective of our sex – suffered from in our life. And thus they could gain their equal place in society and even be a good influence as Transpeople rather then men / women. And without it mattering if they keep their genitals or if they try to surgically change their existing gentials into that of the opposite sex.
              They should be their own category with their own protections and rights.

              • The Al1en

                Thanks for the reply. Answered to Weka, ta.

                Edit: Third gender could work.

              • weka

                I'm a fan of third gender. It would also open the discussion about why so many people hate their sexed bodies and/or the gender roles they have had to endure because of their biology.

              • Brian Jones

                Reading the conversation here, and being witness to similar conversations in UK (assuming the contributors here are mostly not from UK) I would like to say how refreshing it is to see such informed and polite debate. Sadly, in UK, this kind of conversation on line nearly always degenerates to abuse and accusations of transphobia. Thank you all who have offered their thoughts on this genuinely difficult area.

                • weka

                  Thanks Brian, appreciate the feedback.

                • Jan Rivers

                  Weka and the other core posters have worked hard to create a moderation scheme that works well. Big thanks to them. For example people have a right to believe they have a gender identity. It is an explanation for them believing themselves transgender. Disbelievers and sceptics (myself included) should not have to believe in something they find fanciful. It's sites like this that hopefully will help NZ come to a civilised accommodation on this complex issue.

            • Anker 1.2.4.1.1.4

              also The Al1en I think Stock made the point that someone who'd been through Gender reassignment surgery and also had some sort of character check, I guess like the Family Court did here wasn't a problem in female spaces.

              I really appreciate you being on this thread. If I have remembered rightly you have a trans child. So I understand this is a very close and personal issue for you. Like Sabine and Chris T further down this thread, I don't have an issue with people identifying as trans (once they are of a certain age).

              People like me pushed back on this issue when debate was shut down and the govt snuck in legislation to allow Gender self ID. In my life I have experienced many, many situations as a woman where I was just expected to accommodate and suck up often, but not always prioritizing mens needs over my own.

            • Deeps 1.2.4.1.1.5

              Kathleen Stock answered this question. Fully transistioned transsexuals, who appear indistinguishable from natal women, are not considered a problem. It's "women" who wave their penis around in front of women and girls who are considered a problem. And sadly, they do exist. [deleted]

              [please see the other mod notes. I’ve changed your username to match that]

      • Sabine 1.2.5

        I have hired a transwoman and worked with that person for a long time and would hire this person again if they were to return to town.

        I have one transwoman in my immediate family who goes by she/her he/him pronouns. 🙂 Why? Cause he will never pass as a women. There is no way he can operate away his manliness and he is also still anchored enough in physical reality to know that he can't operate away his maleness into something loosely resembling femaleness without losing his reproductive function and rights. So he will stay a full entire male who presents feminine.

        As for my staff, they were a man who for their own reasons preferred to present feminine, however they still kept their genitalia intact (sexual pleasure and maybe kiddies in the future) and presented every now and then as male when it was needed for them.

        Sex, is coded into every cell of your body. Gender is something that each decides for themselves.

        What is galling and tiresome is the pretend that sex – our anatomy is a made up believe and that Gender is innate. No our bodies are what they are, and we all have had at least one moment in life where we disliked out bodies – maybe they got sick, cancer, a hysterectomy, a pregnancy loss, or simply aging for that matter, many of us a dysphoric as but we still came to the conclusion that this body that we have is the only one we bodies can and can not do. And we humans can not change sex.

        Transwomen are men. Transmen are women. Non binary are straight, or maybe bi sexual people who hope to get a bit of queer clout. Non of them have changed or will ever change sex.

        Disclaimer:

        I don't identify as Terf, i am a full blown Merf. A male exclusionary radical female.

        I don't want to stop people from identifying as they wish, i want to stop Self ID and men – any men getting access to spaces that are and should only ever be for females only, such as changing rooms, toilets, prisons, single sex schools, single sex shelters, counseling services, female sports, female awards, female jobs (just as running a rape crisis centre) etc etc etc. And yes, that will exclude transwomen, but includes Transmen.

        And i guess that is essentially what a lot of the MRA who hide behind the TQ+ have an issue with. That we would like Men to use the spaces for Men, and that we would like Men to finally accept Men who are maybe more stereotypically acting feminine.

        The boy who plays nicely with dolls is not a girl, but he might be a man who will be a good father, a good teacher, a good cop, a good doctor etc. Ditto for the girl that likes trucks, ice hockey and want to race side car, they will make a fine woman one day with interesting hobbies or jobs.

      • Tabletennis 1.2.6

        Gostwhowalksnz 'her believe that biological sex is immutable' – Is complete fiction.
        Really?
        So you think that Professor Lord Robert Winston, who states the same fact btw, made his career on a complete fiction I suppose.

        You still confusing two sexes with a DSD (differences of sex development) –
        IOW, if some body misses a leg at birth is that proof that ppl are not bipedal?

      • Jan Rivers 1.2.7

        I'm sorry you have been misled. But sex cannot change. That's how come the gold digger buried after 100 years could be identified as male. Stats NZ made the claim that sex could change in 2020. When called on this they revealed that they meant that a birth certificate could record a change to sex for legal reasons.

      • Peter 1.2.8

        If Stock has no knowledge of medical gender issues because she is a philosophy professor, do I assume that the only people who have knowledge of medical gender issues are professors of medical gender issues?

        As well, do I assume the only people who know about economic and financial matters are professors to do with those fields?

      • John 1.2.9

        Ok Ghost, If someone who's medically transitioned stops their hormone treatment, what happens to their body?

  2. Sabine 2

    thanks for putting up the link. Will take a listen when off work.

  3. Chris T 3

    I have always found it personally annoying how some people seem to have a tendency these days to try to surreptitiously try to merge the terms Gender and Sex.

    Personally I have no issue with people identifying as whatever Gender they chose/feel they most identify as, and have no issue trying to accommodate it when in contact with them.

    But Sex is biological fact. Unless people are saying soldiers in wars who got their nuts blown off buy landmines were no longer men, or women like my mother who got cancer and had to have both breasts removed was no longer a woman.

    • Sabine 3.1

      You can blame government, media, and academia and 'TQ+ NGO's for that willful blurring of the 'gender/sex' line.

      • Molly 3.1.1

        That conflation between sex and gender, and the appropriation of the word woman has made it almost impossible to have conversations about how to support transgender people, while ensuring there are no negative impacts on other protected categories.

        The word 'woman' is also necessary for political representation of the female biological sex category.

        • Chris T 3.1.1.1

          Yeah. It is the bit where it gets a bit iffy I think.

          From a personal point of view again I have always gone with Women/Man being a gender self identification thing and Female/Male being an actual biological difference.

          But fully appreciate others may have a different view on it, or feel differently.

          Can get confusing.

          Edit: Should add, this may not be the brightest way of dealing with it, but is just easiest for me to get my head around it. 🙂

          • Molly 3.1.1.1.1

            For purposes of clarity I reserve the use of women/men to refer to biological sex.

            A couple of reasons, one, that politically women need to retain the word to push back against politics that affect their biological sex class, and two, conflating the word meaning with gender identity expression can lead to some very strange understandings.

            For example: The American Civil Liberties Union have filed a motion against a lawsuit pursued by female prisoners who have been assaulted by transwomen accommodated in the women's prison estate.

            https://reduxx.info/aclu-claims-males-females-do-not-exist-court-docs/

            ACLU is an influential institution in America and it is saying the following (ie. they are the 'Proposed Intervenors'):

            34. Proposed Intervenors deny the allegation that “it is precisely a combination of anatomy, genitalia, and physical characteristics that differentiate men from women[.]” Proposed Intervenors also deny the allegation that “human beings” are “sexually dimorphic, divided into males and females each with reproductive systems, hormones, and chromosomes that result in significant differences between men[] and women[.]”

            • Chris T 3.1.1.1.1.1

              "A couple of reasons, one, that politically women need to retain the word to push back against politics that affect their biological sex class"

              Yeah, that is also a good argument.

              As I say, it can get a bit complicated, but I fully support females not losing hard earned rights, like vulnerable females who have been beaten up by blokes in sheltering services or bathroom sanctuary etc.

              Not the right place to go into the obvious nitty gritty, but it seems a bit of a balancing act.

              Let's face it. There are some females who have been treated so badly by males it is a horrific thought to find them forced to share space with people who are clearly male biologically but go woman gender.

              But then I am male and am just going by the issues a couple of my female relatives faced growing up, so might be being a bit OTT protective.

        • Sabine 3.1.1.2

          I now ask for a definition of women before i discuss anything, and i am growing fond of the word 'wombman' as sadly 'Weibsbild' which is a German word for 'a picture of a woman' is not useful in discussion that are in English.

          “If you wish to converse with me,” said Voltaire, “define your terms.”

          People sometimes get upset, but sadly it is now required specifically when our dear Politians from the left and the right pontificate about 'woman'.

          • Molly 3.1.1.2.1

            The most frustrating aspect about this non-discussion is that there are solutions that can be found or designed that address concerns, while retaining the right to safety, privacy, acceptance and dignity for all.

            Like the Voltaire quote. Had something similar at the beginning of one of my submissions, if I'd have known it then, I would have included it. It seemed important to clarify the language, before putting forward any points.

            • Sabine 3.1.1.2.1.1

              It now is required to agree to the use of terms before discussing in word or in writing anything. The term woman is now devoid of meaning and chances are will be so for ever.

              "When I use a word,” Humpty Dumpty said in rather a scornful tone, “it means just what I choose it to mean—neither more nor less.” “The question is,” said Alice, “whether you can make words mean so many different thing.

              Why yes Alice, you can make words mean anything and nothing at the same time.

  4. mika 4

    I was surprised by how poorly informed and prepared Hill was. She didn't seem to have much backround research done before the interview. For example, she accused Stock of promoting "biology is destiny" whereas the most rudimentary of preparation would have shown that Stock believes nothing of the sort. Was she (Hill) set up badly by junior researchers? Stock was calm, measured and remarkably tolerant given the sloppiness.

    • left for dead 4.1

      You have too understand,she has young adults running the show now,in general they have limited knowledge,and mostly woke I'm afraid.

    • Jan Rivers 4.2

      I wondered the same. It's an unusual interview by Kim Hill where she doesn't delight the interviewee by knowing something unexpected about them. I would have thought Prof. Stock's background in aesthetics would have rated a mention at least.

      Not entirely in jest I wonder perhaps if the researchers had to claim they felt unsafe researching Stock for fear of being castigated by colleagues.

  5. Anker 5
    • I have to say I am so grateful that the women on the Standard (and some men too) continue to post and comment about this issue.
  6. The twitter Left is abuzz, this interview has kicked up a hornet's nest and the self appointed moral arbiters of the discourse are filled with righteous fury, they are planning to target RNZ ,Kim Hill, and the Saturday Morning producer for allowing such heresy on their platform.

    This comes at a time when the Left in NZ is looking a bit shaky, if the outrage mobs go crazy as predicted then more Kiwis will be looking at National as a conservative oasis of sanity

    • Tabletennis 6.2

      @ roblogic
      But isn’t that the sad thing about it, to see this wave of voters towards the National party (what policies?). I can't see any sanity in the current National party. They too voted for self-ID and conversation therapy for gender questioning teenagers.
      Unlikely they’ll will turn this around (follow the bigpharma money).

      Not to mention National Party MP's reluctance to wean themselves of big oil.
      Maybe I’ll give ToP the benefit of my doubt to find political sanity?

    • Molly 6.3

      After having to concede Jordan Peterson appears to have been right about compelled speech, I'm now seeing increasing evidence of "left wing virtue signalling."

      I'm letting go of left and right labels myself, but at present still retain a slight nostalgia for the phrase 'left-wing'. Currently politically unaligned.

      So, below is an example of what some may call 'left-wing lunacy'.

      I'll just call it….?*! while shaking my head. The current left political discourse is pushing votes away.

      • Visubversa 6.3.1

        Discussions in America about how the "left" will put a rapist into a woman's prison cell and the "right" will make the woman have his baby. For all the wittering on that Trans activists do about "vulnerable" people, they seem to have no regard for vulnerable women. They are happy to have autogynephiliac men in women's shelters, women's sexual abuse services, rape crisis centres, prisons, etc.

        • Molly 6.3.1.1

          The failure of logic on display in that video, which I didn't intend to watch all the way through kept me viewing. I hoped that at some point someone would take the opportunity to clearly state what their concerns were based on.

          In the end, it was a synchronised bullying by crowd technique. To add the final touch, it seems they were all studying (or lecturing) as social workers.

        • RedLogix 6.3.1.2

          Discussions in America about how the "left" will put a rapist into a woman's prison cell and the "right" will make the woman have his baby.

          There are of course any number of simple measures to prevent such idiotic outcomes and they are obvious to everyone with a few moments thought. But ideologues refuse to even consider them because their cause is so uniquely important to them that no compromise, no pragmatic middle ground can be tolerated.

          All of which confirms my long held view that extremists of any kind, political, religious or cultural – are all as bad as each other. The particulars are different – but the impacts are uniformly awful.

      • gypsy 6.3.2

        The social workers in this video make no attempt at all to engage on the substantive issues around gender identity, choosing instead to focus on peoples feelings and emotions. This is the new paradigm where feelings somehow take precedence over truth and reality. It is a dangerous time, and the consequences will be felt across society.

        • Molly 6.3.2.1

          It was interesting.

          I clicked on it to just check, but ended up watching the whole 19 min in dismay.

          The help they will end up providing will be unhelpful, if not damaging.

      • weka 6.3.3

        It’s vitally important that we don’t cede the term left. Those students aren’t left wing they’re liberals. They can’t even think about class analysis in that video let alone express it coherently.

        retaining a meaningful concept of the left doesn’t mean we have to align ourselves with GI, and we need to be careful about not ending up politically homeless, that way lies disenfranchisement.

        women can organise outside of the left as well.

  7. Anker 7
    • Always consistent myself left wing and my voting behaviour aligned with this.
    • I am now unaligned and will listen to most people who have a point to make.

    I like to think I am values driven. I value good evidence and giving people enough of the basics to have a decent life.

    The ideological lens that many on the left view things on can be jaw dropping at times, eg Marama Davidson calling the priority list for i migration racist because it prioritised jibes like Drs and nurses. That imo is a very real example of how ideology clouds thinking. There are many other examples and of course the one I most often comment on is that there is such a thing as gender identity which trumps sex. I know there are people with gender dysphoria and like all people with dysphoria, I have quite a lot of compassion for them

  8. CMcMitchell 8

    Its very straightforward.

    As far as we know, although technology may be able to change this eventually, it is impossible to change your genetic sex (ie genes that are beyond your control).

    Your gender is different. You are free to change that on a whim. CULTURALLY (perhaps not always legally).

    You do not know what someone's genetic sex is that you pass in the street. Even gender is not always obvious. You can take a good guess, but most of the cues are going to be social or cultural or fashion-based ones.

    If you see a person who seems masculine in a dress, how do you know they are or aren't a woman? Do you ask? And should it actually be important? These are sociological questions.

    The fact you can never be 100% sure makes it obvious that gender is something quite different from genetic sex.

    Bottom line: genetic sex (genes) is scientific, and gender is social. We use gender in our daily interactions with people – accept their word (or we should) as to their gender. We don’t take tissue samples from them to check out their cellular make-up.

    • Molly 8.1

      Are you conflating gender roles with gender identity here?

      My understanding for clarity:

      1. Biological sex is binary, and immutable.

      2. Gender – (Sometimes used interchangeably with Sex, had a separate definition relating to the expected societal roles, behaviours, expectations and presentations related to the underlying biological sex).

      3. Gender identity – Separate again. Relates to an individuals personal expression and presentation, however they wish to define it.

      Is this where you are?

    • Sabine 8.2

      define 'seems masculine'.

      because most men in dresses are quite easily identified as men in dresses or what is generally considered 'female attire'.

      https://www.gettyimages.co.uk/detail/news-photo/charlotte-clymer-speaks-onstage-at-auntie-debs-guide-to-news-photo/1385837859

      Fact is most of us have no issues identifying the transsexual or the transvestite who uses female – single sex spaces – for their own well being, which incidentally seems to be the only well being of matter and concern.

  9. We're debating whether or not transgender people are valid expressions of sexuality/gender?

    Ok.

    I recall placards here in Aotearoa and USA during marriage equality legislation progressing through respective legislatures, demanding;

    "Can we debate your marriage next?"

    If the validity of transgender people is up for grabs, lets do gays, lesbians, and heterosexuals next.

    Cue: howls of outrage.

    Oh, that's right, we only debate the rights of certain minorities…

    As for transgender people relying on medical intervention, we'd better be prepared to remove medical interventions for heterosexuals and lesbians who can't have children without IVF.

    What's that you say? That's offensive?

    Why yes, you're right!

    Now you know how transgender people are feeling throughout this "debate".

    Ye gods, I thought we were past debating gender/orientation/sexuality after 1986…

    • RedLogix 9.1

      The problem with demolishing social conventions as the sine quo non hallmark of progressive thinking is – where exactly do you stop?

      Where are the boundaries?

      • Sabine 9.1.1

        Bounderies…..lol.

        • RedLogix 9.1.1.1

          I was addressing the substance of Frank's argument. What are you doing?

          • Sabine 9.1.1.1.1

            I just had to laugh out lout at the idea that people such as myself are allowed bounderies to tell some bloke in a dress to leave the female changing room, female sport, female award, female rape crisis centre, female shelter and so on.

            this is what NZ Post tells it female staff as what they can do with their bounderies. 🙂

            Image

    • weka 9.2

      We're debating whether or not transgender people are valid expressions of sexuality/gender?

      no, we’re not. If you want to run this line here you will need to point specifically to where someone is debating the validity of trans peoples expression of gender *and explain how they are doing that. Because it’s not at all apparent to me what you are referring to. Certainly Stock isn’t doing that.

      I’m doing you the courtesy of writing this in a comment rather than mod bold but it is an expectation that you will explain what you mean and what you are referring to. Am also pleased to see someone willing to join the conversation from the trans ally side, it will improve the debate.

    • Molly 9.3

      Frank, did you come here to have a discussion, or do you want to continue this back and forth with an imaginary person in private?

      I am willing to engage with you honestly, if you indicate the same.

    • SPC 9.4

      Hi Frank, I was one of those taking the side of those concerned about the safety of those transgender in custody a few years back (Auckland parade), but equally there is the matter of the historic, and ongoing, safety concerns of women. Safe spaces, safety and fair competition in sport.

      A gender non conforming lesbian was someone who would have been seen as a fellow female, albeit unconventional in appearance, in women's spaces. Now decades on, just one part of a more diverse female population. However if a person born male, now identifying as female was to do the same, then this difference might be seen as one with the potential to pose some risk (once people can self-identify, the degree to which they make an effort to (or can) appear as women is up to them).

      At one level it's a sensibility/social convention, but at another it is an awareness of risk.

    • Sabine 9.5

      No gay man has ever tried to take up a spot in female sport, lines up for a female award, is a part time gay person, nor demands that we allow them to use spaces in which females are in various stages of undress, or demands to be given access to female only retirement homes on the grounds that they got themselves a pair of silicon breasts a decade or so ago.

      Please with all due respect leave the L and G and even the B of the TQ+. Thefirst three letters are ones are sexual orientations the others are mainly heterosexual people with a fetish. There is a huge difference between a transsexual and a transvestite.

      • Visubversa 9.5.1

        Absolutely. The L G and B are same sex attracted – the rest of the "Alphabet Soup" are straight. We have been force teamed with a bunch of "spicy straights" who do not have the same interests as us – and whose interests in many areas are antipathetic to ours. Their legislation is smuggled in behind a rainbow flag – the Conversion Therapy Bill being a great example. Everybody talked about how bad Gay Conversion was – despite very little evidence of any current need for the legislation. It was actually all about "gender identity" or "gender presentation". As these things cannot even be defined properly without vanishing into sexist stereotypes and circular arguments it needed the cover. Self ID was smuggled into Ireland in the same fashion – and they now have "Barbie Kardashian" in Limerick Women's prison. https://www.irishtimes.com/news/ireland/irish-news/woman-who-threatened-to-torture-and-kill-her-mother-found-guilty-in-limerick-1.4873477

    • Jan Rivers 9.6

      You create a straw man of validation. No-one has to be forced to agree with the self-estimation and beliefs of another person. Liberal democracies have not generally operated in the territory of enforced belief and speech. No-one HAS to validate me, you or anyone else whether they say they are transgender or not.

      You also have made the case here and on other platforms that being transgender is equivalent to being lesbian or gay. I think that is not an helpful analogy. Here is a good recent article that explains why. Why not have a read?
      https://genspect.org/no-trans-is-not-the-new-gay/

      The list of comparisons are as follows:

      1. There have always been gay people. There haven’t always been trans people.

      2. Gay people exist all across the world. Trans people don’t.

      3. Homosexuality is seen across the animal kingdom. Transgenderism isn’t.

      4: Being gay is empirically verifiable. Being trans is not.

      5. Being gay never requires medicalisation. Being trans usually does.

      6. Being gay does not typically have comorbidities. Being trans typically does.

      7. Being gay is not socially influenced. Being trans is.

      8. Being gay does not require others to change their behaviour. Being trans does.

      9. Being gay is not premised on social stereotypes. Being trans often is.

    • Delia 9.7

      Well in 1985, the previous year a law was passed making rape in marriage a crime. In 1985 lesbians had no legal rights. We had barely any women in senior positions in govt or their departments. When equality law and marriage was passed for same sex relationships it did not affect women's sex status. Now we have men with male genitalia telling lesbians they are transphobic for not having sex with them. We have work places suggesting women do not be alarmed if a male is in the female toilets. We have one of. the highest rates of violence against women in the world. I have absolutely no issues with transexuals in our loos but I do think accepting males in our private areas is to much of a stretch. I also have rights to safety and privacy and dignity. I also have a right to my own cultural female history. This is another battle for women among the many battles we have fought. Legally unable to discriminate against us due to law reform the last fifty years, the new discrimination is just take those women's jobs, sports awards etc by just saying you are a woman. America has never had a woman president, do not be surprised if when they do it is a transgender women President. They are already being elevated into positions in the States women can only dream of still.

      • weka 9.7.1

        Very well put.

        why progressive men think mansplaining is suddenly ok I have no idea. What you just said is harder to say because of No Debate but also because people are unwilling to understand history from women’s perspectives.

    • roblogic 9.8

      The deliberate pigheaded ignorance of the woke twitterati is doing my head in. These people have swallowed the PR hook line and sinker. And in so doing they ignore a constellation of abuses against women and children, and stomp on science and some basic human rights.

      You cannot demand others bow down to a rainbow flag ideology and attempt to take away their freedom of speech, freedom of religion, freedom of female people to assemble in their own spaces, and not get some pushback. This movement hijacks the narratives of victimhood to enforce a regressive bunch of gender stereotypes that many do not believe in, in fact we consider them to be a tissue of lies and delusional fantasies.

      This is the wrong horse for the “Left” to back. Gender ideology undermines the more fundamental class struggle and reinforces harmful (patriarchal) thinking that elevates male fetishes above women’s rights.

  10. Deeps 10

    For heaven's sake, since goodness knows when men have not been allowed into women's changing rooms etc. For very obvious reasons. Women don't generally like random men seeing them – or their young daughters – naked. [deleted] FFS!!!!!

    [we require a single user name. A pseudonym is fine but it needs to be consistent. Please also be more careful with language. I’ve deleted the bit that was unnecessarily offensive. You can ask if you unclear where the bouncary is – weka

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