The US election daily discussion post

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1. Cinny 1

   20 October 2016 at 7:12 am

   Debate at 2pm today, it’s going to be ALL ON LIKE DONKEY KONG, will donald lose it and sniff his way through? Will Hill’s cry? Those poor Americans, I really feel for them.

   Debate will be live on the wireless via Radio Live from 2pm, also streamed live on the Duke channel on TV, or via various streams on the internet. I’ll be tuning in via Al Jazeera’s alternative youtube stream, have found that nice and reliable, here is a link.
   • Colonial Viper 1.1

     20 October 2016 at 8:32 am

     Russia is redeploying its entire northern fleet to Syria

     Norwegian military monitors largest movement of Russian warships for decades.

     Thanks Obama/Clinton, you’re doing a mighty job.

     But I suppose Trump’s alleged sexual romps are going to be the main focus of the debate.

     http://www.zerohedge.com/news/2016-10-19/russia-deploying-largest-naval-force-cold-war-syria-nato-diplomat
     • mauī 1.1.1

       20 October 2016 at 8:45 am

       Funny how US warships have probably been off Syria for years and our media is totally supportive of that. But as soon as Russia, Syrias allies do it, it’s a dangerous escalation.
       • Colonial Viper 1.1.1.1

         20 October 2016 at 8:58 am

         The US has an entire carrier group stationed in the Mediterranean as a matter of course…
       • Stuart Munro 1.1.1.2

         20 October 2016 at 12:02 pm

         There is at least some jingoism going on:

         http://www.dailystar.co.uk/news/latest-news/554972/Vladimir-Putin-Russia-Britain-Navy-Warships-Mock-Weak-Tiny-Alexander-Khrolenko

         One wonders who is manufacturing consent for whom – Russia for its domestic hawks, or the UK ahead of some kind of interdiction. Interesting times.
       • McFlock 1.1.1.3

         20 October 2016 at 12:38 pm

         who called it a “dangerous escalation”?

         It’s an escalation, but only temporary due to the nature of that particular carrier.

         The speculation that it was about providing some more oomph to the Aleppo assault and provide an exit strategy was intriguing.
     • mosa 1.1.2

       20 October 2016 at 10:12 am

       I guess sex is more entertaining than a menacing Russian military build up CV.
       • Colonial Viper 1.1.2.1

         20 October 2016 at 11:02 am

         That’s the way it looks to me. Salacious scandal beats out risks of nuclear confrontation.
         • Cinny 1.1.2.1.1

           21 October 2016 at 9:50 am

           reality tv at it’s finest lololz. Russian military build up is concerning ty for the links
2. Manuka AOR 2

   20 October 2016 at 7:23 am

   “Critics want her to go to jail, she’s the ‘devil’ and can’t be president. No, they weren’t talking about Hillary Clinton.

   “Victoria Woodhull faced the same obstacles as Hillary Clinton in the late 1800s, and so did the more than 200 women who have aimed for the White House since – yet a constant barrage against Ms Clinton can make it easy for people to dismiss her historic achievement” http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/americas/sexism-hillary-clinton-victoria-woodhull-margaret-chase-smith-president-weak-devil-donald-trump-a7360421.html
   • Manuka AOR 2.1

     20 October 2016 at 11:51 am

     “There’s a woman running for president.

     “She is criticised for her ties to Wall Street. […] Many find her untrustworthy; investigations into her past fill the newspapers. […] even her marriage is the subject of public speculation and debate.

     “Her ambition alone is alienating to some and her most vociferous critics have even likened her to the devil. Rather than send her to the White House, there are those that wish to see her locked up in prison on election day.”

     “Ellen Fitzpatrick, New Hampshire University professor of history was speaking about Victoria Woodhull, the first woman to run for president in 1872.

     “While Woodhull was described as “Mrs Satan” and caused strong controversy when she cut her hair short, Ms Clinton was likened to the “devil” by Donald Trump who attacked her “weak stamina”, physical health and her appearance.

     “Almost 100 years after women won the right to vote in 1920, America could finally be about to vote for a woman president.

     “But the road has been long and hard-fought, and apparent double standards are confronted at every turn, said Ms Fitzpatrick.”
     From The Independent link above.
3. marty mars 3

   20 October 2016 at 7:43 am

   Interesting

   “If our membership in thought communities is powerful enough to shift our very perception of color, then it must be able to influence our thinking in many other ways, too. In Social Mindscapes, Zerubavel shows that what we pay attention to, the categories we use, what we remember, and even our perception of time are all shaped by our thought communities.

   Accordingly, cognitive sociology would predict that the rising polarization in politics and the fragmentation of media will make it harder and harder to understand each other, not because we don’t agree on the facts or because we have different political interests, but because our brains are actually working in divergent ways. That is, what we’re experiencing with this election is not just political disagreement, it’s a total breakdown in functional communication, which sounds about right.”

   https://thesocietypages.org/socimages/2016/10/19/can-cognitive-sociology-explain-why-people-are-voting-for-a-different-candidate-than-you/
   • RedLogix 3.1

     20 October 2016 at 8:27 am

     Very. He and other cognitive sociologists argue that our thought communities shape cognition itself, that the brains of people in strongly divergent thought communities literally work differently.

     Or you could argue its the internet doing it to us; all the splintered off little echo-chambers/thought ghettos rewire and reshape our brains into patterns that are rewarded in that environment, but isolate us and render us dysfunctional in any other.

     In one sense there is nothing surprising in this result; religions are essentially ‘thought communities’ and through teaching, prayer, meditation are very powerful tools for shaping how people think.

     The big illusion we ALL suffer from is that we mistake the model of the world that we create in our heads for the real thing. Community is how we learn to create models with enough commonalities so as we can co-operate in each other’s space. In this sense ALL community is a shaping of our minds.

     But crucially not everyone will have the SAME model in their head at the SAME time. And fundamentally this is a good thing, because no single person’s model of reality is either complete or perfect; combining the best of multiple models has enormous survival value. Hence 7 billion humans.

     The trick the combining part. If all the energy goes onto the differences then nothing can be agreed on. If you start with the commonalities, fitting the divergences into that much larger framework is far easier.
     • The New Student 3.1.1

       20 October 2016 at 2:03 pm

       +1
4. Andre 4

   20 October 2016 at 7:44 am

   Why many of the things you dislike about Hillary the candidate actually are useful traits for the president.

   https://newrepublic.com/article/137057/hillarys-president
   • Colonial Viper 4.1

     20 October 2016 at 8:43 am

     Yeah they were real useful in her job as Sec State, selling her office, embarrassing her ambassadors, breaking diplomatic protocol, breaching national security laws, etc.

     Also I understood that she took Dept of State furniture to put in her own place (was it ever returned? The White House had to force the Clintons to return White House furniture that they took when they left the White House – they literally took the china).
     • Manuka AOR 4.1.1

       20 October 2016 at 8:51 am

       How dare she touch anything at all in the Old Little Boys Club that the presidential line should be!

       She’ll probably start cleaning up the place, and no man wants that.
       From Andre’s link:
       “Trump’s critique of Hillary as the master of corruption can be made about any politician running for office today. Attacking her for what everyone does is the oldest political charade in the books. But if her opponents are serious about their outrage over Crooked Hillary, then this could be the first advantage of electing her president.

       “The day after she’s inaugurated, let the new Congress crack down on campaign financing, tighten ethical standards for elected officials, and ban blatant scams like pay-for-play. If we outlaw all the things Hillary’s enemies hate in her, we’ll be doing away with everything the rest of the country hates about the entire political class. So sure, ruin Michael Kinsley’s joke. Bring it.”
       • weka 4.1.1.1

         20 October 2016 at 10:06 am

         As Joss Whedon tweeted recently, people are pissed that it’s a Clinton Administration reboot with a female lead.
         • Manuka AOR 4.1.1.1.1

           20 October 2016 at 10:32 am

           I wonder how many of those “people” are male and how many are female. Joss appears to be very much a male.

           One of the ways that women are still being subjugated is via a ‘commanding of the narrative’, by males. That is very often seen in domestic violence situations. And it is seen here and now, in Hillary’s run for the presidency. “People” are interpreting in advance, what Hillary will do or say – as in, being a ‘reboot’ of Bill’s days.
5. joe90 5

   20 October 2016 at 8:00 am

   I suppose he could leap to his feet in the middle of the debate and tell the world Barack Obama was born in Kenya, or something…..
   /

   Republican presidential nominee Donald Trump announced that President Barack Obama’s half-brother, Malik Obama, will be his personal guest at the final presidential debate in Las Vegas. The choice highlights an unusual division between Trump and some of the right-wing media outlets he often relies on, who have for years accused Malik Obama of having alleged ties to various extremist groups in a fringe effort to smear President Obama.

   http://mediamatters.org/research/2016/10/19/trump-allied-media-previously-attacked-his-debate-guest-malik-obama-alleged-ties-extremist-groups/213925
   • Sabine 5.1

     20 October 2016 at 8:16 am

     we will need a big bucket of popcorn and vodka.
     it will be entertaining, tremendously entertaining, like the most entertainingest ever.
     • marty mars 5.1.1

       20 October 2016 at 8:18 am

       Yep – they will have their mittens off this time for sure 🙂
       • Manuka AOR 5.1.1.1

         20 October 2016 at 8:25 am

         Humpty Trumpty sat on a Mexican wall
         Humpty Trumpty will have a great fall
         All the presidents’ military men
         won’t put Humpty together again
     • Andre 5.1.2

       20 October 2016 at 8:21 am

       Trust me it will be so entertaining you’ll get tired of being entertained.
6. Colonial Viper 6

   20 October 2016 at 8:25 am

   Scott Adams: People who believe Trump is the new Hitler, have fallen for a Mass Delusion

   Here’s a little thought experiment for you:

   If a friend said he could see a pink elephant in the room, standing right in front of you, but you don’t see it, which one of you is hallucinating?

   Answer: The one who sees the pink elephant is hallucinating.

   Let’s try another one.

   If a friend tells you that you were both abducted by aliens last night but for some reason only he remembers it, which one of you hallucinated?

   Answer: The one who saw the aliens is hallucinating.

   Now let’s add some participants and try another one.

   http://blog.dilbert.com/post/152024526021/i-wake-you-up-for-the-presidential-debate
   • Stuart Munro 6.1

     20 October 2016 at 8:41 am

     Not sure how far we want to go down the road of DeLilo’s White Noise – but Hitler was not a silver spooner like Trump.

     Alistair Cooke actually attended a couple of rallies and described them:

     “A small ambulance standing by seemed [an] unnecessary come-on, but at the end of the twenty-minute speech I heard, two or three women had fainted, for the good neurological reason that he could hypnotize even a small audience with omens of a dire future. He did this not with the hysterical bawling which was all we saw in the newsreels before and throughout the Second World War but with a style of the most artful variation of mood, from tenderness to whimsy to outrage. He convinced me, for one, that we had had it.”

     Alcibiades may be a better comparison: ” Plutarch calls Alcibiades “the least scrupulous and most entirely careless of human beings.” He also documents his fellow statesman, Eupolis, calling him the “prince of talkers, but in speaking most incapable” http://utopianist.com/804
     • RedLogix 6.1.1

       20 October 2016 at 8:53 am

       He did this not with the hysterical bawling which was all we saw in the newsreels before and throughout the Second World War but with a style of the most artful variation of mood, from tenderness to whimsy to outrage.

       And a mass population largely unexposed to such techniques would have been exquisitely vulnerable to them back then.

       What both Cooke and Adams are both saying here, albeit from different starting points, is that essentially us ordinary people need to build up a LOT better resistance to this kind of manipulation … no matter the source.

       I often go back to line from a very senior KGB officer in the immediate aftermath of the break up of the Soviet Union. From memory and paraphrasing he said " Russian propaganda was crude and no-one believed it, but the Americans had Madison Avenue and this is what defeated us".
       • Stuart Munro 6.1.1.1

         20 October 2016 at 9:12 am

         Yep – and this is the point of real journalism – the intrusion of fact and experience readily collapses the grand facades of propaganda that is directed at broad demographics rather than individuals. This is the existential threat Al Jazeera posed to Bush’s media support – not propaganda, but disillusionment.

         With Lavrov & RT the Russians have clearly upped their game, they are capable of attracting liberal support as they have not been since maybe 1950. How many schools teach the betrayal of liberal goodwill that saw Russian nationalism subvert Comintern, or have students read For Whom the Bell Tolls? There’s a lot of koolaid being drunk – even if Jones’s death cult actually used a grape flavoured product.
   • RedLogix 6.2

     20 October 2016 at 8:46 am

     Interesting. Even though I’ve pointed to the idea myself, I’m still warying of painting Trump as another Hitler. For as start history never quite repeats like that. Nonetheless if nothing else the human brain is a fantastic pattern recogniser, and Trump may well represent one populist mis-step in a much larger slide into fascism. That pattern possibility cannot be ignored.

     Equally Adams is a very cool guy and his argument is clever. He’s right, mass delusions are indeed quite common, if not almost normal. My counter to Adams is that since the 1960’s onwards we’ve been trained to perceive Hitler as pretty much ‘the most evil shit in all of history’. I’ll acknowledge that’s a very, very powerful pattern. So much so he’s more or less become the Lord Voldemort of the internet, no-one respectable should speak his name. Labelling Trump as Hitler redux exploits this pattern very potently.

     Prior to WW2 most Germans (and most people elsewhere) perceived Hitler through a quite different lens. To borrow Adams allegory, they didn’t see any pink elephants. He was indeed a largely popular, Times Man of the Year reformer who got things done. And looked very much like he was going to make Germany great again.

     So which of these two models is going to be closer to reality? And how do we seriously go about telling the difference/
     • Colonial Viper 6.2.1

       20 October 2016 at 8:57 am

       He did make Germany great again. Breifly. And if he had kept Germany to occupying Poland and Austria, we would have had a very different world today.
       • Stuart Munro 6.2.1.1

         20 October 2016 at 9:21 am

         There is also the matter of the Weimar Republic – which often gets treated like martyrs of some kind. They deserved to lose power. Like the Key kleptocracy, the Weimar Republic did not act to resolve Germany’s economic problems.

         Hitler, Stalin, Mugabe, and Key did not realise how dangerous a habit kleptocracy is. If your state only survives by stealing from the Jews, the Kulaks, the planter/farmers, or assets accumulated by thriftier administrations, what will it predate upon once these are gone?
         • Colonial Viper 6.2.1.1.1

           20 October 2016 at 9:30 am

           Like the Key kleptocracy, the Weimar Republic did not act to resolve Germany’s economic problems.

           Oh fuck off.

           Typical western colonial attitude from you.

           Conveniently forgetting that post world war I Germany was forced by the west to send the bulk of its industrial and financial output overseas to repay France, US, UK,

           Keynes and others knew that this would lead to untenable political-social stresses in Germany and set up another massive war and so it was.
           • Stuart Munro 6.2.1.1.1.1

             20 October 2016 at 9:42 am

             Not sure why that upset you – did the Weimar government relitigate its Versailles debt? Or was that left to someone more confrontational?

             “Typical western colonial attitude from you.”

             Spare us your inane prejudices.
     • Colonial Viper 6.2.2

       20 October 2016 at 9:00 am

       Re: Times Man of the Year – Hitler was highly favoured by US industrialists and bankers.
       • joe90 6.2.2.1

         20 October 2016 at 9:10 am

         And more than a few ordinary folk.
         • Colonial Viper 6.2.2.1.1

           20 October 2016 at 9:20 am

           Just reminding people that big US money and Wall St backed Hitler, joe90.
   • TheExtremist 6.3

     20 October 2016 at 9:08 am

     Your other buddy in the Philippines is the one who likes to compare himself to Hitler
     • Colonial Viper 6.3.1

       20 October 2016 at 9:12 am

       You still pushing for regime change in the Philippines? You should look up how many people the US sponsored Marcos got rid of during his term in power. And stop being so gullible to the corporate/imperial MSM.
       • TheExtremist 6.3.1.1

         20 October 2016 at 9:29 am

         Yesterday I told you “no” when you asked if I supported regime change in the Philippines yet today here you are lying through your fucking teeth about what I said.

         As to me “being so gullible to the corporate/imperial MSM” it was fucking Duterte himself, in his own words, that compared himself to Hitler.

         So in one comment you flat out lied followed by smearing me as gullible for reporting on what someone actually said.

         Can a mod please reign CV’s lies in? Isn’t flat out lying about someones POV, when they know they are lying, against policy somehow?

         [It’s reasonable for a commenter to be asked to substantiate a claim. In this case, CV should do so or withdraw and apologise. TRP]
         • Colonial Viper 6.3.1.1.1

           20 October 2016 at 9:34 am

           Oh, so now you now finally accept that Duterte is the legitimate and democratically elected head of the Philippines Government?

           Good to hear. Last thing we need is the US starting destabilising regime change/colour revolution operations in the Asia Pacific.
           • TheExtremist 6.3.1.1.1.1

             20 October 2016 at 9:40 am

             Please point to any comment where I a) supported regime change in the Philippines and B) refused to accept Duterte is the legitimate and democratically elected head of the Philippines Government.

             It was only yesterday in a single place where I discussed Duterte so it should be easy for you. If you can’t you should withdraw. Otherwise you are just a liar.

             (EDIT: Thanks TRP for the above)
             • Colonial Viper …

               20 October 2016 at 9:53 am

               I apologise and withdraw my comment – but believe that TheExtremist should also withdraw his BS about Duterte being my “buddy” unless he can substantiate some kind of friendship between Duterte and myself.

               [Cheers, CV. Appreciated. I think it’s obvious that the friendship line is hyperbole rather than a claim of fact. Given that you’ve just stated your belief that Hitler made Germany great again, there’s probably no way you can be slandered now anyway 😉 TRP.]
               • TheExtremist …

                 20 October 2016 at 9:56 am

                 Now you’re just being silly.
               • Colonial Viper …

                 20 October 2016 at 10:03 am

                 Just as long as you are seen to be applying your rules equally to everyone TRP…

                 [Quite. But then, they aren’t my rules, they are the site rules. And your regular ad homs and unsubstantiated claims need to be seen in the light of some the first words in the Policy:

                 “What we’re not prepared to accept are pointless personal attacks, or tone or language that has the effect of excluding others. We are intolerant of people starting or continuing flamewars where there is little discussion or debate.”

                 You are generously tolerated here, despite your extreme right wing views, but that doesn’t mean you have carte blanche to abuse the rules or, indeed, other commenters. TRP]
                 • Colonial Viper …

                   20 October 2016 at 11:44 am

                   In that case I thank you for all your generosity and grace, TRP.
         • Peter Swift 6.3.1.1.2

           20 October 2016 at 9:41 am

           “Can a mod please reign CV’s lies in?”

           His lies are easy to see through, ridicule and move past.
           His adulation of Putin, the butcher of Aleppo, and now Adolf, not so much.

           “He did make Germany great again. Breifly. And if he had kept Germany to occupying Poland and Austria, we would have had a very different world today.”

           That’s the thing one expects to find aired on Whale oil or Yawnz perhaps, but not The Standard.
           I’m a little shocked, tell the truth.
           • Colonial Viper 6.3.1.1.2.1

             20 October 2016 at 9:50 am

             US spox struggles to explain why siege and civilian deaths in Mosul is OK, while siege and civilian deaths in Aleppo is war crime

             The imperial double standard at play
           • Peter Swift 6.3.1.1.2.2

             20 October 2016 at 9:56 am

             Are you suggesting that because I’m anti you being pro a Russian murderer I’m supportive of the USA equivalent?
             That would be as big a lie as the one you told up thread.

             It’s clearly not your day so far, comrade.
             • Colonial Viper …

               20 October 2016 at 10:05 am

               Oh Peter Swift, you do need to get away from the continuous ad homs, it’s really a bit embarrassing for someone as smart as you. Do sharpen up.

               [CV, it’s fine to post whatever you want on the politics, but once you start misrepresenting other people’s arguments it creates a more hostile environment that is inevitably going to escalate and create more work for the mods. You’ve had one moderator warn you, this is another one. Please be more careful.

               I’m also going to suggest that everyone take a step back and consider what they write. A dedicated post for the election isn’t a free for all. Please focus on the politics and less on the bitching at each other – weka]
               • Peter Swift …

                 20 October 2016 at 10:06 am

                 Yes, not your day at all. lol
               • Colonial Viper …

                 20 October 2016 at 10:34 am

                 Weka – I get called “pro a Russian murderer” by Peter Swift, and I am the one who gets the warning for misrepresenting others?

                 [You clearly misrepresented someone else in this thread and were moderated accordingly. I think it’s a pattern, but I could be wrong. I don’t have time to read through the whole thread and then track back through past conversations. If you want to put up some actual evidence then go for it. If instead you want to pick an argument with me as a moderator, go for it too, I don’t have time for this shit and am happy to ban anyone who thinks wasting my time is appropriate. – weka]
                 • Peter Swift …

                   20 October 2016 at 11:27 am

                   I don’t want to drag this out and go against directives, but for the sake of clarity and fairness in having right of reply given the complaint made against me in the post above, I’ll simply state the following and then desist on the subject as requested.

                   I believe, like many do, that Putin has childrens blood on his hands. As CV openly posts support for him, I genuinely stand by the ‘pro a Russian murderer’ part of my comment.
                   If that’s too offensive a claim to make, when viewed in context of hospital and aid convoy bombings, my opinion is it’s not really.
                 • One Two …

                   20 October 2016 at 1:44 pm

                   You’re being bullied and while at times you appear to be your own worst enemy, largely comments you post come with too much ‘history’ for readers to comprehend…they simply can’t match your broad knowledge base

                   As for the extremist complaining to the moderators, it is terribly weak especially given the hostility your comments attract from the extremist…hypocrisy in the extreme is the order of the day

                   The moderation response appears to be weighted against your ‘hard right wing views’

                   Did Weka threaten you with a ban or did I read that incorrectly?

                   The decent appears to be terminal and the ‘fix’ is in

                   [Don’t make up shit about authors/moderators. You apparently missed my point about not wasting the moderator’s time. Take the rest of the week off, back on Monday – weka]
                   • Colonial Viper …

                     20 October 2016 at 2:11 pm

                     You’re being bullied and while at times you appear to be your own worst enemy

                     Well, who isn’t 🙂

                     But just observe the massive levels of dishonesty amongst a few of the liberal lefties.

                     Sec State Clinton was instrumental in continuing and enforcing increasingly strict sanctions against Syria. These sanctions have strong similarities with those applied against Saddam Hussein and Iraq in the 1990s by Sec State Madeline Albright, and even affect things like medical supplies and drugs going into Syria.

                     The Iraqi sanctions cost hundreds of thousands of Iraqi childrens lives. The Syrian sanctions have no doubt also cost thousands of Syrian childrens lives.

                     But hardly a lefty liberal here seems willing to say that Hillary Clinton “has childrens blood on (her) hands”. Instead – Putin will get attacked for exactly that while everyone is deadly quiet on Clinton’s bloody record.

                     Chur, dude.
             • TheExtremist …

               20 October 2016 at 10:09 am

               “Are you suggesting that because I’m anti you being pro a Russian murderer I’m supportive of the USA equivalent?”

               That’s pretty much CV’s standard argument.
               • Peter Swift …

                 20 October 2016 at 10:20 am

                 Really? I hadn’t noticed. 🙂
           • In Vino 6.3.1.1.2.3

             20 October 2016 at 9:54 pm

             Then, Peter Swift, you are rather ignorant of history. It is quite true that Hitler had a winning position for a long time in WW2, and CV is quite right – Hitler did BRIEFLY restore Germany’s greatness. Fortunately, Hitler was quick to become over-confident, and make blunders.

             This does not mean that I ‘adulate’ Hitler, nor does it mean that CV does.

             Why on earth do you and moderator TRP have such a personal grudge against CV? He is factually correct, but TRP gets to accuse him of ‘extreme right’ views. I am calling bullshit on that. I speak and taught German; I taught debating in English; I studied and taught History, especially the origins and course of WW2. CV has said nothing incorrect about Hitler, nor has he expressed admiration for him. I have followed CV’s disputes a lot on this site, and he gets falsely accused of being right wing every time he questions what appears to be the party line.

             I see a long, bitter personality conflict on this website, and I think TRP has overstepped his mark as a moderator. I cannot see CV as having ‘extreme Right’ views simply because he questions the standard line. To my mind, TRP owes CV an apology and withdrawal for accusing him of having extreme right wing views.

             When CV makes comment on social policy, I see them as left wing, not extreme right.

             See Garibaldi’s comment on today’s Daily Review if you think I am alone, TRP.
             • McFlock …

               21 October 2016 at 12:23 am

               Actually, CV is wrong about Hitler. Specifically the line “if he had kept Germany to occupying Poland and Austria, we would have had a very different world today.”

               That’s CV right there: it sounds interesting and vaguely knowledgable, but that ignores the Sudetenland, the Ruhr, and the fact that WW2 started because poland had defence treaties with the French and English – basically, it treats the things he mentioned as if they existed in a vacuum. Occupying Poland without starting WW2 was impossible. And then it ignores every other foolish and just plain wrong thing Hitler was doing at the time and the fact that Germany needed expansion to pay for all the stuff it had already done, as well as importing food and fuel and the resulting stress on the Mark.

               The world would be different if Hitler had moderated his territorial demands, and I’d be much more fit if I’d stopped aging a couple of decades ago. Nice to pretend,but that ain’t the nature of the beast. Anyone who says it is is selling moonshine and unicorn farts.

               And don’t get me started on when he tries to do math – he makes a statement that sounds reasonable right up until you work the problem through, and then he packs a wobbly and mutters about him being right even when the outright opposite is, according to him, “technically more correct” or some such crap.
               • In Vino …

                 21 October 2016 at 9:43 pm

                 Maybe I misinterpreted CV’s words: I believe that until Hitler attacked Russia, he had a winning position. Had he held this, and maybe the war had come to a negotiated end, the world may have indeed been a very different place. I assumed that CV thought the same. So we are talking about the war after 1939, and what might have been. But it is all useless conjecture now..

                 Let’s just say that a lot of conclusions seem to get leapt to with excessive rapidity and little discipline, like TRP leaving out the word ‘briefly’ in order to accuse CV of claiming that Hitler made Germany great again, as if CV were an admirer of Hitler. A leap too far, to my mind.
                 • weka …

                   21 October 2016 at 11:08 pm

                   I wouldn’t be surprised if CV did admire Hitler. Not the genocide, but other things. CV does fairly often express admiration for people who have pretty reprehensible politics or behaviours in general e.g. Trump. He also expresses admiration for the right when they do something he approves of.
                 • McFlock …

                   21 October 2016 at 11:10 pm

                   The world would have been very different if a nazi state managed to coexist peacefully with a slavic communist nation as its immediate neighbour, but then the nature of nazis would also have been very different.

                   Besides, “briefly” or not, that comment about Hitler was guaranteed to be provocative. It’s factually highly debatable (e.g. enigma penetration, RADAR, development of ASDIC etc were all independent of Hitler invading Soviet Union) for a given semantic definition of “great”.
             • weka …

               21 October 2016 at 1:07 am

               “When CV makes comment on social policy, I see them as left wing, not extreme right.”

               His views on identity politics, and rape and rape culture suggest is he alt-right. His views on Trump suggest he is in some weird no-mans land, but I definitely wouldn’t call it left wing. His views on the political spectrum in NZ suggest he is centrist (hence his praise of Peters). And yes, some of his views are left wing. I actually think it’s not possible to know what he thinks now, because his naked hatred of the left clouds most of the things he says. It’s not him challenging the centre-left, it’s him burning bridges with every natural ally he has who doesn’t see the world in the way he does.

               The recent accusations of him being right wing are a lot to do with his promotion of Trump. As I’ve said, it’s possible to have a left wing analysis of the groups of people in the US who’ve been disenfranchised and thus vote Trump, but CV insists on throwing others under the bus as he tries to do that and he actively supports the right at times.

               In case that’s not clear, there is the problem with his political shift in the past year, and then there is his behaviour. I think we’ve reached the point of intolerance for both because of how they intersect.
               • In Vino …

                 21 October 2016 at 9:56 pm

                 I see left and right as socialism-vs- capitalism; equitable distribution of wealth -vs- oligarchy, equal opportunity -vs- privilege, and a well-educated population -vs- manipulated proletariat.

                 Crime I do not see as left or right: it is civilisation -vs- barbarism, human rights -vs- imposition of power. That is where I put rape and rape culture. How do you manage to make rape culture a matter of left and right? Are you suggesting that there are no misogynist left-wingers? Because Communism has been tried only in poor countries with a tradiition of violent repression, there is a very strong belief among many that the left are even more repressive than the right when given the chance.
                 • weka …

                   21 October 2016 at 10:58 pm

                   “How do you manage to make rape culture a matter of left and right?”

                   I don’t. What I am doing is saying that different parts of the spectrums respond to rape culture differently. e.g. the alt-right denies rape culture and promotes ideas and politics that support it. Conservatives generally are against rape, but do little to combat rape culture except at a personal level. Centre left people tend to be supportive to the extent that it fits with the status quo e.g. let’s fund Rape Crisis, but the idea of doing rape prevention education in schools as standard is probably too much. Progressives and the identity politics side of the actual left, support addressing rape culture in the same way as addressing all oppression.

                   etc. Of course within all of that you will have individuals who don’t fit (left wing men who are rapists, left wing rape apologists both personal and political), and who have range of views. And there are RW people with better response to rape culture than some left wing people.

                   That’s not even getting to authoritarian/libertarian. I’m not really a political theorist along those lines, I’m more interested in how groups of people organise and the politics they use.
7. Colonial Viper 7

   20 October 2016 at 8:29 am

   Tracey Martin, elite travel chef for President Clinton, explains how Hillary Clinton degraded her servants, called people the N****r word, call women b**ch, and referred to the “little people”

   The Clintons are a money power machine; they are not a couple.

   Also how Hillary is charming and gracious on camera. And completely different at other times. (Alex Jones interview).

   https://youtu.be/E2aNIU1Z9lw?t=4858
   • Manuka AOR 7.1

     20 October 2016 at 8:46 am

     It’s like having a J’s Witness or Destiny evangelical in a philosophy discussion.
     (CV chanelling AJ)
     • Andre 7.1.1

       20 October 2016 at 8:52 am

       This is a much more entertaining clip of Alex Jones (CV’s go-to idea source).

       It’s been posted before, but it never gets old.
       • joe90 7.1.1.1

         20 October 2016 at 8:58 am
         • Colonial Viper 7.1.1.1.1

           20 October 2016 at 9:01 am

           Tracey Martin was travel chef for the Clintons for several years, and continues to serve the elite VIP throughout the world.

           His personal experience with the Clintons, and particularly Hillary Clinton’s treatment of the “little people” is eye opening to say the least.
           • TheExtremist 7.1.1.1.1.1

             20 October 2016 at 9:10 am

             “His personal experience with the Clintons, and particularly Hillary Clinton’s treatment of the “little people” is eye opening to say the least.”

             Yet the dozen or so woman who detail their personal experiences with Trump are smearers and liars.
             • Colonial Viper …

               20 October 2016 at 9:15 am

               Where did I say they were liars?

               Anyway, try and concentrate.

               Tracey Martin, who continues to be a VIP executive chef, talks about how Hillary Clinton frequently degraded the staff and servants around her.

               This matches descriptions from former State Dept security staff and Secret Service about how Hillary used to abuse, dismiss and ridicule them, as well as breaking security protocols in ways which put her entire team in danger.
               • TheExtremist …

                 20 October 2016 at 9:32 am

                 Ah good, so you believe they are telling the truth. That means you agree Trump is a serial sexual assaulter. Still want to back him?
                 • Colonial Viper …

                   20 October 2016 at 10:31 am

                   Do try and concentrate: I am talking about the interview with Tracey Martin, 5 star VIP travel chef, and his experiences with Hillary Clinton.

                   For instance, when he was serving Hillary Clinton tea with Mrs Bernadette Chirac, wife of the former French President, Hillary told Martin to tell that “N****r” to take that away, after someone delivered an item to the room that was not to her satisfaction.
                   • Manuka AOR …

                     20 October 2016 at 10:35 am

                     I don’t believe that happened.
                   • TheExtremist …

                     20 October 2016 at 10:38 am

                     So let me get this straight – one person reckons he heard Clinton use a racial epitaph. There are no corroborating witnesses, no one else has come forward with any thing else to support this particular claim, no other person has come forward sharing their similar experiences outside of this case and you believe this to be a bombshell truth yet a dozen odd woman come forward, sharing very similar stories about being sexually assaulted by Trump while the man himself brags about it and this is a disgusting smear job.

                     Is that *really* where your head is?
                   • Colonial Viper …

                     20 October 2016 at 10:44 am

                     Former State Dept security personnel and former Secret Service personnel have corroborated with similar stories of Clinton’s abusive and degrading behaviour towards staff and servants.
                   • TheExtremist …

                     20 October 2016 at 10:46 am

                     [Citation Needed]
                   • Colonial Viper …

                     20 October 2016 at 11:39 am

                     Citation? It would be my pleasure.

                     FBI docs: Clinton ‘contemptuous’ of security agents, put team at risk for photo op

                     The official said “agents were indignant that they were required to follow security policy but [Clinton] made herself exempt from the same regulations.” This was on display during a 2009 visit to Indonesia, where the agent said Clinton overrode security recommendations to stay out of potentially hostile areas in Jakarta.

                     Agents on the team felt Clinton’s behavior put the traveling party in “unnecessary danger in order to conduct a photo opportunity for ‘her election campaign,’” the document says.

                     “…[the DS advance team] recommended in writing that this excursion be stricken from the schedule but were told by DS management that it was going to happen because ‘she wanted it,’” the document says.

                     “It was also believed that [Clinton] disregarded security and diplomatic protocols, occasionally without regard for the safety of her staff and protection detail, in order to gain favorable press.”

                     The unnamed agent also said that Clinton’s “poor treatment” of her security detail was so “contemptuous” that many agents sought reassignment or employment elsewhere. Consequently, Clinton’s security detail was staffed by younger, less experienced officers.

                     http://www.foxnews.com/politics/2016/10/17/fbi-docs-clinton-contemptuous-security-agents-put-team-at-risk-for-photo-op.html

                     
                     [CV, you have been asked to provide cites for the following comment:

                     Former State Dept security personnel and former Secret Service personnel have corroborated with similar stories of Clinton’s abusive and degrading behaviour towards staff and servants.

                     Back up your claim with specific and credible cites or withdraw and apologise. TRP]
                   • TheExtremist …

                     20 October 2016 at 12:23 pm

                     First and foremost do you actually think Fox News is a good cite? Really?

                     Secondly – here is the difference between our approaches. If you could find credible, corroborated, sources for Clintons alleged mistreatment of staff and racially charged language I would find it disturbing and hope that it gets addressed by the candidate. I wouldn’t call it a smear (which it does currently because it is all “unnamed agent” which is in no way credible at this stage).

                     You on the other hand scream “Smear!” “Witch Hunt!” “Media/MSM lies!” at every suggestion of Trump doing something improper despite the weight of evidence coming full force down on top of his shoulders, marked by his very own words on the topic which implicate Trump as being a sexual aggressor and assaulter by a dozen sp people who publicly (not unnamed) have alleged crimes.

                     Do you see the difference…?
         • Manuka AOR 7.1.1.1.2

           20 October 2016 at 9:07 am

           Can anyone listen to that (“Destroys Piers Morgan”) and think he sounds sane? He sounds like a freaking basket case.
           • Colonial Viper 7.1.1.1.2.1

             20 October 2016 at 9:19 am

             Oh, he’s a tad excitable at times, but I think for the most part Alex Jones gets what is going on in the modern world.
             • TheExtremist …

               20 October 2016 at 9:33 am

               Yeah – like Obama and Clinton being demons who smoke DMT to meet with the clockwork elves.
           • joe90 7.1.1.1.2.2

             20 October 2016 at 9:19 am

             Jones is a rich boy basket case with a *sniff* problem.
   • joe90 7.2

     20 October 2016 at 8:47 am

     Yeah, and sulphur, man, high up people have told Alex that both Obama and Hillary smell like sulphur.
     /

     https://mediamatters.org/video/2016/10/10/trump-ally-alex-jones-i-was-told-people-around-clinton-shes-demon-possessed/213712
     • Sabine 7.2.1

       20 October 2016 at 8:52 am

       someone once said this and someone once said that …no one was around to hear it being said – so was it said?
       • gsays 7.2.1.1

         20 October 2016 at 1:22 pm

         must admit i laughed when hugo chavez commented on smelling sulphur, as he stood at a lectern that bush jnr had recently occupied.
8. TheExtremist 8

   20 October 2016 at 9:06 am

   Can the Sound of Music image rather be changed to this?
   http://www.bloodyloud.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/10/253270_530328610363016_1311129053_n.jpg
   • Manuka AOR 8.1

     20 October 2016 at 9:09 am

     heh 🙂
     The cognitive dissonance element was already there somehow
   • weka 8.2

     20 October 2016 at 11:18 am

     Lol. Tempting, but I think that would be asking for trouble.
9. Paaparakauta 9

   20 October 2016 at 9:36 am

   Clinton campaign & DNC on violence at Trump rallies
   https://youtu.be/5IuJGHuIkzY

   Vote Fraud HOWTO
   https://youtu.be/hDc8PVCvfKs
10. Andre 10

    20 October 2016 at 9:42 am

    Assange’s new news/internet service.

    http://thehill.com/blogs/blog-briefing-room/news/301836-man-shouts-news-to-wikileaks-founder-after-ecuador-cuts-off-his
    • Colonial Viper 10.1

      20 October 2016 at 10:32 am

      Yep, the sanctions of western colonial forces at their best.
11. Observer Tokoroa 11

    20 October 2016 at 10:46 am

    .
    . The pitiful hatred of Hillary Clinton as expressed by a number of persons on here says more about our uneducated misguided NZ than it does about any USA Democrat.

    No one has to like the personality of any particular person. But nobody has the right to accuse and slander any person.

    I would hope that the extreme gratuitous allegations made against this Woman will be tested in Court after the Election. Huge compensation would flow to her. Rightly so.

    For me the really disturbing thing is that the supporters of Trump have been given permission to see her murdered over her sane gun control policies. This is serious .

    Also why is Donald Trump such a bully. Standover man. Creepy and constantly abusive. Is he the true model of a Republican? If so what a fall GOP has taken.

    .
    • joe90 11.1

      20 October 2016 at 11:28 am

      In 140 characters or less.

      If you don't know how Trump still has even 40% of the vote, just remember we as Americans need warning labels telling us not to eat soap.— shauna (@goldengateblond) October 19, 2016
    • One Two 11.2

      20 October 2016 at 1:57 pm

      Some can observe criminality when it’s in front of them repeatedly over many decades

      Some won’t, or refuse to see anything untoward in the patterns of behaviour over many decades for ‘whatever reasons’

      Some are simply ‘too thick’ and or have stunted their cognative development by being undisciplined and lazy with reading and thinking habits and use elementary forms of projection and transference in place of logic and sound reasoning
12. Curious George 12

    20 October 2016 at 11:05 am
13. joe90 13

    20 October 2016 at 11:09 am

    About O’Keefe’s video nonsense.

    .
    At other moments, it doesn’t take much imagination to see how the same quotes on these tapes can be read both ways. Take this one from Foval: “The one thing I’m never going to do is have some kid get punched out at a rally and then not have his doctor bill and his legal bill, if he gets arrested, paid for.” Veritas says that is proof that the “Clinton dark machine is ready for the violence they foment.” Defenders say it is proof that Foval was rejecting Veritas’ suggestion that they ought to start riots to draw attention. Without the full context, it’s impossible to know.

    […]

    A third player is Cesar Vargas, an activist who has helped young people who came illegally to the United States as young children, or whose immigration status has lapsed. Vargas’ work with the DREAM Action Coalition made him an easy mark for Veritas. But, on tape, he says the plan to bus immigrants in the country illegally to states with lax rules on voting is “not gonna’ happen this election.” Off-camera, a Veritas operator seems to get Vargas to admit the plan is voter fraud, but there’s no way of telling if that person said what the tape purports.

    http://time.com/4536212/james-okeefe-project-veritas-video-democrats/

    .

    For giggles – how boy blunder stung himself.

    .

    She heard a click, a pause, and then a second male voice. The person who had introduced himself as Kesh said, “Don’t say anything . . . before I hang up the phone.”

    “That piqued my interest,” Geraghty recalls. Other aspects of the message puzzled her: “Who says they’re with a foundation without saying which one? He sounded scattered. And usually people call to get funding, not to offer it.” Victor Kesh, she suspected, was “someone passing as someone else.”

    She continued to listen, and the man’s voice suddenly took on a more commanding tone. The caller had failed to hang up, and Kesh, unaware that he was still being recorded, seemed to be conducting a meeting about how to perpetrate an elaborate sting on Soros. “What needs to happen,” he said, is for “someone other than me to make a hundred phone calls like that”—to Soros, to his employees, and to the Democracy Alliance, a club of wealthy liberal political donors that Soros helped to found, which is expected to play a large role in financing this year’s campaigns. Kesh described sending into the Soros offices an “undercover” agent who could “talk the talk” with Open Society executives. Kesh’s goal wasn’t fully spelled out on the recording, but the gist was that an operative posing as a potential donor could penetrate Soros’s operation and make secret videos that exposed embarrassing activities. Soros, he assured the others, has “thousands of organizations” on the left in league with him. Kesh said that the name of his project was Discover the Networks.

    http://www.newyorker.com/magazine/2016/05/30/james-okeefe-accidentally-stings-himself
    • joe90 13.1

      20 October 2016 at 11:30 am

      More, from the WaPO.

      Two Democratic operatives lose jobs after James O’Keefe sting

      […]

      Foval, who repeatedly ties a noose with his tongue, also seems to overhype his successes. Reporters who covered the Trump UIC appearance found that students, not Americans United for Change, were responsible for the shutdown of the Trump rally. The video’s evidence to the contrary is that Zulema Rodriguez, an activist paid in February by the Democratic National Committee, says on tape that she was there and “did that.” In the first video, O’Keefe makes much of the term “bird-dogging,” which Foval describes as putting people at the front of rope lines to make sure “they’re the ones asking questions.”

      “It’s a word we had not heard until we began this investigation,” O’Keefe says, noting that the term appears in WikiLeaks emails that include Clinton staffers.

      But it’s not a new term and certainly not secret. Bird-dogging is a fairly common activist tactic, and reporters often recognize it when seemingly “perfect” questions come from a political audience. In August 2015, Foval told the Milwaukee Journal-Sentinel that People for the American Way, his employer at the time, was “bird-dogging all of” the Republican presidential candidates. What was seen as a nuisance political tactic then becomes, in the video sting, a secretive form of voter-candidate intimidation.

      https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/post-politics/wp/2016/10/19/two-democratic-operatives-lose-jobs-after-james-okeefe-sting/
    • Manuka AOR 13.2

      20 October 2016 at 8:21 pm

      Defenders say it is proof that Foval was rejecting Veritas’ suggestion that they ought to start riots to draw attention. Without the full context, it’s impossible to know.
      That had been bugging me. It felt like a lie, and the feeling worsened when a local radio commenter reporting it as fact. (“Trump brought out some strong points in the debate” he said, and cited that stirring- up- violence example.) Now it makes sense.
14. Anne 14

    20 October 2016 at 11:37 am

    Ok. It’s not really about the American election but:

    to whomsoever came up with the post caption… thank-you for the laugh of the day. Brilliant.
15. joe90 15

    20 October 2016 at 11:51 am

    Are the folks running the Trump Foundation either knowingly dishonest, or totally inept?

    “We’re past the point where a reasonable person could believe this is just a never-ending series of once in a lifetime errors,” said CREW Communications Director Jordan Libowitz. “This may not be anything nefarious, but if it isn’t, that would mean that the Trump operation is completely inept when it comes to running the Trump Foundation.”

    http://www.citizensforethics.org/press-release/trump-foundations-got-problems-taxes/
    • miravox 15.1

      20 October 2016 at 3:52 pm

      Donald Trump is a Democrat plot.
      .
      .
      .
      .
      .
      Just putting it out there…
16. joe90 16

    20 October 2016 at 3:47 pm

    heh

    The new Republican logo… pic.twitter.com/lyCAksJTdN— Bette Midler (@BetteMidler) October 19, 2016

    https://twitter.com/BetteMidler/status/788741182431965184
    • Macro 16.1

      20 October 2016 at 3:49 pm

      Hehehe Donald Trunk!
17. joe90 17

    20 October 2016 at 3:58 pm

    It gets better – Trump TV.

    https://www.buzzfeed.com/charliewarzel/while-you-were-watching-the-debate-trump-just-launched-trump?utm_term=.haElllwr3M#.li1PPPq8gd
    • joe90 17.1

      20 October 2016 at 4:04 pm

      BRK: Gloria Allred announces a new Trump sexual assault victim will come forward on Thursday. #debate pic.twitter.com/9RdemgnNHr— Christina Wilkie (@christinawilkie) October 20, 2016
      • miravox 17.1.1

        20 October 2016 at 4:06 pm

        Do you think that breaking news will be on Trump Tv?
18. Gangnam Style 18

    20 October 2016 at 6:17 pm

    http://www.votefortrumppence.com

    “Twenty minutes ago, I got bored and found out that http://www.votefortrumppence.com wasn’t taken. I bought it for $9 and uploaded a picture of myself giving the middle finger.” – Brian Lam

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