Trump trashes Iranian Nuclear deal because he can

Written By: - Date published: 8:38 am, May 9th, 2018 - 108 comments
Categories: Donald Trump, Europe, International, Iran, israel, us politics - Tags:

Relying on a Ted talk given by Israeli Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu the wrecker in chief Donald Trump has done something he has threatened to do for some time and withdrawn the US of A from the Obama negotiated Iranian deal.

These headline grabbing events tend to occur at the same time that Trump is facing some personal difficulty.  Recent news that there was a wiretap on his lawyer Michael Cohen, and the subsequent confirmation then denial that Trump knew that Cohen had paid Stormy Daniels hush money possibly in breach of electorate financing laws have given Trump every reason to try and divert.

But throw the Middle East into turmoil for a diversion seems to be a rather extreme thing to do.  But that is what has happened.

From Radio New Zealand:

US President Donald Trump has announced the US will withdraw from the nuclear deal with Iran and reimpose sanctions.

Mr Trump has been highly critical of the 2015 accord, under which Iran limited its nuclear activities.

EU powers see it as the best way to stop Iran developing a nuclear bomb and their officials met a senior Iranian on Tuesday without US officials present.

The president’s announcement took place around 6.15am NZT. In the announcement he called the deal “defective at its core.”

“This was a horrible one-sided deal that should have never, ever been made,” Mr Trump said at the White House. “It didn’t bring calm. It didn’t bring peace. And it never will.”

The president said the US will institute the “highest level” of sanctions against Iran.

The Iranian Nuclear deal was an agreement between the five permanent members of the Security Council, the European Union and Iran designed to limit Iran’s acquisition of nuclear material.  It provided for the closure of facilities, limitation of the purification of nuclear materials and inspections by the International Atomic Energy Agency.  Tearing it up will no doubt cause Iran to restart its attempts to obtain nuclear weapons.

And Trump’s allies, even the right wing ones, are opposed to his decision.  Again from Radio New Zealand:

In a statement, France, Germany and the UK – who are also signatories to the deal – have said they “regret” the American decision.

The European Union’s top diplomat, Federica Mogherini, said the EU was “determined to preserve” the deal.

UK Foreign Secretary Boris Johnson urged Mr Trump not to “throw the baby out with the bathwater” on Monday, while his French counterpart Jean-Yves Le Drian made clear that France, the UK and Germany would continue to honour the accord.

Israel is very happy.  But this means that it may no longer be the sole nuclear power in the middle east and I think its happiness is misplaced.

The President’s superficial thinking and his utter confidence in his opinions are real worries.  I hope the world survives his term relatively intact.

108 comments on “Trump trashes Iranian Nuclear deal because he can”

  1. roy cartland 1

    Isn’t it uncomfortable that we (NZ) as an anti-nuclear country are all so in favour of the Iran deal because it’s the least bad outcome (with a significant dose of underdog favouring)? If the US wasn’t being such a dick, they could offer massive support in renewable energy tech instead, and the rest of us could get behind that.

    It’s hard to support something we don’t support simply because foregoing support is worse.

    • indiana 1.1

      …Also when Goff was a minister in Labour, he tried to stop India’s nuclear plans as well…maybe the spots on Labour’s coat have changed?

      • Bill 1.1.1

        No. Goff facilitated India receiving nuclear tech by not using NZ’s veto on the matter.

    • TootigPopularFront 1.2

      Obama was greening US energy sector, the electricity generators were dismayed when Trump announced he “digs coal” as they were enjoying the transition away from fossil fuels

  2. Gosman 2

    He is merely making good on an election promise. Whether or not that promise was sensible is a different matter but he is delivering to his support base.

    • mickysavage 2.1

      He is threatening to destabilise the Middle East and tear up a treaty everyone who mattered said was working.

      Strange justification that …

      • Gosman 2.1.1

        Actually he is not tearing anything up. The agreement required the US President to sign off on extensions every six months I believe. It was therefore entirely possible for the US to decide to get out of the deal in the way Trump has done.

        • dukeofurl 2.1.1.1

          Not really

          “The nuclear deal is also enshrined in a UN security council resolution that incorporated it into international law.”
          Like to see Trump roll that back – he cant.

          Last year his officials were testifying that Iran had complied with the Treaty so far, which is different from Trump just saying it ‘was a bad deal’

          The Signoff from Congress every 120 days isnt part of the treaty ( or JCPOA)
          https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Joint_Comprehensive_Plan_of_Action#Summary_of_provisions

          • Gosman 2.1.1.1.1

            Ummm… the US does not usually subject itself to UN Security council resolutions in the way you suggest. That is why the US President had to sign waivers every 6 months for the agreement.

            • dukeofurl 2.1.1.1.1.1

              Where do get the idea that the US doesnt intend for SC resolutions to apply to itself ?
              ( It was one of the founders of UN – or was that a bad deal too- so its obligated to do so or is rogue state the way to go)

              They can veto ones they dont like, sure but this one was unanimous including P5. So its done.

              The US can tear up its international agreements but cant expect others to do so.

              Im sure Iran could happily continue with the rest of the world ‘following international law’ and not deal with US.

            • Draco T Bastard 2.1.1.1.1.2

              Correct, the US doesn’t respect international law and ignores it whenever it chooses.

              This, of course, makes it a Rogue State.

              • Gosman

                Yeah it’s a rogue state like Russia. What are you going to do about it?

                • Draco T Bastard

                  It’s not what I do – but what the rest of the world does.

                  Unfortunately, I don’t have great faith that they’ll do anything – yet. Most of them still think of the US as being benign but it never has been.

                • dukeofurl

                  “Yeah it’s a rogue state like Russia. What are you going to do about it?

                  So the phrase ‘leader of the Free World’ is just some flannel like

                  ‘fabrique en nouvelle zealande’, there just to fool the mugs like Gosman

      • fustercluck 2.1.2

        Everyone who mattered? I’d say Israel is a bit of a stakeholder here and they certainly did not think the treaty was working. Iran has threatened to restart its program in weeks suggesting it never went away in the first place. It was a crap deal, at least according to those most threatened by it. Or are you one who assumes Iran is great and Israel is not?

        • dukeofurl 2.1.2.1

          Ah no.

          Iran
          US
          UK, France, Germany (plus EU)
          Russia
          China.

          No mention of Israel, not that they follow any UN resolutions they dont like anyway.

          • fustercluck 2.1.2.1.1

            Ah, yes. By stakeholder I mean they have a strong interest in the outcome. The word you were reaching for is “signatory”

          • Draco T Bastard 2.1.2.1.2

            Israel is another Rogue State.

            • fustercluck 2.1.2.1.2.1

              Rogue or not, they have an interest in the outcome, as I asserted. Calling names does not address issues. This blog is such an ad hominem wallow!

              • Draco T Bastard

                And they’d be better of keeping the agreement going. They don’t want to as they seem to want to create war in the ME with the US as front man.

    • Incognito 2.2

      Good morning, Gosman.

      In none of your comments so far you have declared your position on the withdrawal. Do you care to share your opinion on whether this is good for stability in the ME and the world as a whole? Do you think it will bring the EU and the USA closer in terms of strategic political agendas

      • Gosman 2.2.1

        I don’t think it is a wise move but then again I don’t think it is a catastrophe either. I’d prefer a US actively engaged in global diplomacy than one that is acting unilaterally.

    • D'Esterre 2.3

      Gosman: “He is merely making good on an election promise.”

      Indeed. During the election campaign, he said that he’d do this.

      • dukeofurl 2.3.1

        So many Trumps broken promises,

        remember making Mexico pay for the border wall ?
        Congress doesnt want to pay either, hence no wall funding

  3. Gosman 3

    There is an obvious issue with the view that this will make it more likely Iran will develop nuclear weapons. Iran has always claimed they have NEVER been developing nuclear weapons anyway and that their research has always been around the peaceful use of nuclear energy. Were the Iranians lying when they claimed that?

    • mickysavage 3.1

      Possibly but why tear up a treaty that everyone who is rational is saying is working?

      • Gosman 3.1.1

        Trump obviously doesn’t think it is working and people have not convinced him otherwise.

        • Anne 3.1.1.1

          Poppycock. He’s like the spoiled brat who hates the boy next door cos that boy is ‘cleverer’ and more popular than he is. The boy next door is this case is Barack Obama, who was primarily responsible for the non nuclear agreement with Iran. Therefore Donny boy had to tear it down. End of story.

        • Macro 3.1.1.2

          Yes but Trump can hardly be described as a rational person. Even if his “doctor” signs a letter saying he is.

          • Gosman 3.1.1.2.1

            Why is he irrational? Is it because he disagrees with your take on this topic?

            • Macro 3.1.1.2.1.1

              Gossy – you obviously have not been listening! Just the other day his lawyers tried to walk him through the 49 questions Mueller wants to ask. He got through 2 without going into a rant on his favourite topic – himself and just how wonderful he is! That is why they want to respond to the questions in writing because they know he could never face Mueller.

              In an informal, four-hour practice session, Mr. Trump’s lawyers were only able to walk him through two questions, given the frequent interruptions on national-security matters along with Mr. Trump’s loquaciousness, one person familiar with the matter said.

              Former New York Mayor Rudy Giuliani, who is now on President Trump’s legal team, told CBS News correspondent Paula Reid Monday that special counsel Robert Mueller’s office has rejected proposals to allow Mr. Trump to answer questions from investigators in writing.
              The president’s legal team has signaled that this would be their preferred format for a possible interview, since it helps protect Mr. Trump from the possibility of lying or misleading investigators, which is a criminal offense.

              https://www.esquire.com/news-politics/a20427617/trump-interview-robert-mueller-russia/
              What the man says is pretty much determined by what he last heard. You might call that rational – most people wouldn’t.

          • Anne 3.1.1.2.2

            It’s hardly believable except the doctor admitted Trump wrote it and told him (the doctor) to sign it. I remember when the letter was revealed thinking to myself… that’s the sort of thing Trump would say. The doctor must have caught whatever Trump’s got.

            There are no words… 😯

  4. Anne 4

    I repeat what I said on OM his morning:

    … the average American voter needs to be kicked over a steep cliff into oblivion – metaphorically speaking of course. They brought this appalling state of affairs on themselves and millions of innocents around the world will accordingly suffer.

    I feel sorry for those who did not vote for Trump but where are they now? It looks like some sort of Civil War is the only solution if the US is to regain any form of international respect. At the moment it deserves nothing but derision and disrespect and I suspect in the long run that is exactly what it is going to get.

    • Gosman 4.1

      Or the opposition to Trump could actually try and make itself electable.

      • dukeofurl 4.1.1

        Seems that lots of republican senators and Congressmen are heading for the doors ahead of upcoming elections.
        Could that be because they dont rate their chances of being re-elected ? In some states the GOP is trying everything to postpone special elections before the main Nov ones, because they could lose them. [ big loss by GOP in Alabama as an example]

  5. Ad 5

    Thanks Mickey I’ll just shift my comment from OM this morning.

    It is the armaments industries of Iran and Russia that will benefit the most: no one else in the world will be prepared to work around the sanctions now proposed by the US.

    Israel already has Iran on its border since it controls Lebanon through Hezbollah, has military bases and strong influence over the government of Syria, and strong influence within the government of Iraq which may increase this weekend through the elections. This is a world now with Iran unconstrained.
    Israel is no winner from this.

    Very hard to see Saudia Arabia benefitting when it is trying to get enough money together from oil sales to exit oil entirely – when this decision by Trump will collapse the oil price yet again.

    There are no winners in this decision.

    There is certainly no Plan B from Trump.
    It’s a decision made in his usual spite that he couldn’t stand a deal holding that his predecessor Obama had put in place.

    Why would any other state – such as North Korea – go into a binding deal with this President after this action? President Trump kills international deals.

    World peace is certainly not a winner in this decision.

    President Trump has a faster and better chance of ending the human world than climate change.

    • Gosman 5.1

      How will this collapse the price of oil? Surely it will do the opposite.

      • Exkiwiforces 5.1.1

        US Shale oil has depress the price oil already and if the US shale oil producers can ramp up production over the short and medium it could lead even more depressed price oil prices which OPEC Nations doesn’t want atm.

        • Gosman 5.1.1.1

          Yeah they COULD do that but the actions taken by Trump doesn’t mean they WILL do that. In fact the actions taken by Trump means it will be more difficult for the Iranians to sell their oil and therefore reduce supply on to the World market. Reducing supply does not usually lead to falls in the price of something.

          • Exkiwiforces 5.1.1.1.1

            Iran will still sell its oil on the open market regardless of the US Sanctions (it would be a different story it was UN enforce sanctions) and in fact I wouldn’t be surprised if they started trading in Euro’s instead of the USD, which is a high risk option as the last country that tried to do that got invaded.

            Don’t forget that China is a oil importer as well and probably would buy Iranian oil.

            I’m sorry, but I think Trump has dug himself a wee bit of a hole here especially if the EU sticks to the Iranian Nuclear Deal.

    • Bewildered 5.2

      Why would any other state – such as North Korea – go into a binding deal with this President after this action? President Trump kills international deals.

      Because Why would any other state – such as North Korea – go into a binding deal with this President after this action? President Trump kills international deals.

      Iran and Nk simply use these deals to game the West. Tump approach is to prevent this and say no more

      • Ad 5.2.1

        Neither Iran nor North Korea are that good at gaming if they are going to try it on with an unstable and angry world leader who controls the largest military and is not afraid to use it.

        Iran is on even shakier ground than Iraq and Pakistan and Afghanistan if their leadership thinks the only threat to their research and military facilities is from Israel. The US is a war state; that’s now what it’s built for. Trump is the trigger, and he just slipped off the lock.

        North Korea will be squeezed out of existence by the existing sanctions and the US has every reason to keep the vice very tight there – both for its own sake, and as a really good signal to China over China’s influence-ambition in the broader region.

        Neither of those look like great games being played by Bismarckian-scale players.

    • Draco T Bastard 5.3

      Israel is no winner from this.

      Israel has seemingly been trying to get the US to start a war in the ME for decades. This seems to be part and parcel of their plan.

      • Ad 5.3.1

        Netanyahu is a fucking moron, and a corrupt evil man.

        The ISDF get nothing out of this except headaches.

        • fustercluck 5.3.1.1

          The dude is a former special forces operator. You could assert evil or corruption but it is pretty certain he is not a moron. All the stupid operators are dead.

          • Ad 5.3.1.1.1

            If he were less than a moron, then in his entire elected career he would have been able to generate just one international supporter other than the US. He has trashed the legacy of Sharon and Perez and made Israel more and more isolated with belligerence.

            I try very very hard to support Israel, but I have no time for Netanyahu. None.

            • Gosman 5.3.1.1.1.1

              Yet he keeps getting re-elected. Israelis are generally not stupid so they must see something in Netanyahu that others do not. He also only really needs the US as other nations aren’t as powerful or are unwilling to do anything that will harm Israel at this stage.

  6. Sabine 6

    surely, any day now the dotard and his crew of deplorables is gonna bring peace and shit. Right?

    • tracey 6.1

      Well he is going to get a Nobel Peace Prize. Final proof for me that the world has gone to hell in a handbasket…

      • Puckish Rogue 6.1.1

        Don’t you think Obama getting the prize was the final proof, I mean what did he actually get it for and how many countries did he end up bombing?

        • Sabine 6.1.1.1

          but was that not the reason so many here and elsewhere where happy that the dotard won? That he was not beholden to anyone, he was the one with the best people, he was the one with the best negotiations and shit, and since then North Korea just finished all the tests it needed to get shit done, and Iran will be to doing the same thing if they have their mind intact.

          I would also remind people that Iran has yet to attack anyone. Not that that matters. Right, at the moment the on ly thing matters is that the right drives the ‘socalled’ left crazy, breaks agreements everywhere, causes suffering among many (non of them white working class man with economic anxiety i might add) and that is it.

          its the big fat white male buffoon vs anyone else (in return to the future they called him Biff). Fucking oath, i wish the dotard would just fucking bomb the planet so that we are done and can finally stop pretending that he is anything else but a fat, gross, disgusting piece of shit happy to ruin live for anyone just for a second of feeling like he is the greatest.

          • Puckish Rogue 6.1.1.1.1

            Take a deep breath, have a cup of coffee and compose yourself. Trump was going to start WW3 over NK and it looks like the Koreas areas close to peace as they’ve ever been, this with Iran will blow over as every other crisis has

            It will be all right

        • Stuart Munro 6.1.1.2

          It was supposed to nudge him towards better behavior – just didn’t move him very far.

  7. Bewildered 7

    Trump made it quite clear rightly or wrongly during his election campaign he was not going to follow the status quo on many issues that seem never to get solved or simply the can gets kicked down the road , North Korea etc, I see no difference here with Iran, maybe he will also get a positive outcome here as we hope with North Korea I note at the time trumps approach on NK was also tut tutted by so called experts. One thing Trump does well is that he is very unpredictable, this with the economic and miltary strength of the US puts him in a very powerful position from a negotiation point of view and he knows it, This is in contrast to Obama’s who just wish to placate every body with moving bottom lines and let’s just kick the can down the road approach I don’t like Trunp as a person but this does not mean all his policy or strategies are bad Two fallacies here come to mind re Trumps detractors on the Iran issue, social proof ie just because a lot of people believe in some thing that is foolish, does not mean it’s not foolish, likewise sunk cost fallacy ie often when we invest time effort and energy into something the irrational thought is to carry on to justify previous effort and not admit we where wrong, The rationale view is to carry on if the future justifies carrying on Here possibly these two fallacies are at play in regard to Trumps detractors, ignoring deranged syndrome some of the left and media have with Trump no matter what he does

  8. Sabine 8

    also, it seems that one can’t just ‘pull out’ of the agreement. It appears that there is no ‘pull out’ clause so in essence the US of A is now in violation of the agreement.

    Yeah, the dotard has all the best people and is the best negotiator and shit.

    In the meantime North Korea is laughing and laughing and laughing. There is absolutely no reason for any country on this planet that feels threatened by the US to not develop the bomb.

    but her fucking emails.

  9. Bill 9

    Iran won’t start up any nuclear programme as long as the other signatories preserve the agreement.

    I’m more concerned about what clowns in Saudi Arabia and Israel might think of doing next.

    • Sanctuary 9.1

      The Israeli government is determined to force a Israeli/US confrontation with Iran, and the latest ratcheting up of tensions is partially a result of this little action (https://warisboring.com/50408-2/) which saw an Israeli air strike on the T4 base inside Syria lose a F-16I fighter to a S-200 missile. I disagree with the articles last three concluding paragraphs. The first Israeli air strike was very effective because it was delivered from medium altitude against a passive defense. Once the SAM systems started to engage, the Israeli aircraft were only able to operate at low altitude – the one aircraft that didn’t descend was shot down. Sure, subsequently the Syrian missile batteries didn’t hit anything, but the Israelis didn’t hit much either once they were unable to operate with impunity.

      Now, it is worth remembering that in the Soviet/Russian doctrine SAM systems are designed for air denial, not air superiority. They don’t control enemy airspace, they just stop the enemy from attacking you in yours. Once the attacking aircraft is forced down to low altitude, it could (in a full-on war) be engaged by small arms, automatic weapons, MANPADS, rapid firing auto-cannons, SPAA systems like the ZSU-23-4 and 2K22, and even medium SAM systems like the 9K33 Osa. Thus pre-occupied by multiple threats a violently manoeuvering low flying jet fighter is unable to focus on hitting it’s target. And as long as the enemy bombs don’t hit the target, it is mission accomplished for the air defence screen. Shooting anyone down is just a bonus. One could therefore reasonably infer that once everyone was firing merrily at each other this little aerial battle over Syria was a victory to the Syrian government forces because they neutralised the combat power of the Israeli Air Force.

      Now, the Israelis rely heavily on their very powerful and modern airforce to project power in the Middle East. They would have been absolutely mortified at the implications of this engagement. A Russian supported, weak anti-aicraft network negated their airforce less than 200km from Israel for a full day. That, in turn, calls into question Israeli assumptions about their ability to deal with Iranian revolutionary guards without suffering heavy losses.

      In sum, the Israelis want a showdown with Iran – with the USA on their side – because as this little battle illustrated they are losing their ability to use overwhelming force with impunity in relation to Iran, and that Iranian threat is less than 200km from Tel Aviv.

      • Win 9.1.1

        Ask Hezbollah how they dealt to Israel. No wonder Israel is anxious about Hezbollah and Iran. Perhaps Putin will have a word in Net’s ear during the Victory parade in Russia. So Bibi this is what a real missile looks like.

      • Ad 9.1.2

        Reminds me of how superior the Israeli tanks were supposed to be in Lebanon.
        Pantsed.

        It’s really hard to see this evil Israeli government getting kicked out, even if Netanyahu is found to be corrupt. It’s a pretty weird coalition the Opposition would have to form to become an alternative government.

        I can see the realpolitik in Israel seeking to force confrontation with Iran.
        It’s very hard to see actually occurring even with Bolton et al giving Trump advice.

        Maybe I’m just unwilling to think that darkly yet.

      • Draco T Bastard 9.1.3

        The Israeli government is determined to force a Israeli/US confrontation with Iran…

        To me it looks more like Israel are trying to get the US to engage Iran so that they can sit back and watch. Maybe a couple of side sorties here and there to ‘show their support of US action’ but nothing that would actually threaten to weaken them.

  10. Jenny 10

    “They may have the oil, but we have the matches”

    Ariel Sharon

    The world has been made a more dangerous place by Trump’s decision to “trash” the nuclear agreement with Iran.

    Trump is obviously reacting to Israel’s Benjamin Netanyhu claim that Iran is hiding a secret plan to develop nuclear weapons.

    A number of experts in these matters have commented that Netanyhu’s real concern is not Iran’s nuclear capabilities but Iran’s sophisticated non-nuclear missile systems, missile systems that Lebanon’s Hezbollah, Iran’s ally in Syria, are desperately trying to get their hands on, (in the event of a clash on the Lebanese border between Israel and Hezbollah). So far every attempt at transferring advanced Iranian missile systems to Hezbollah has been halted by Israeli air strikes.

    The canceling of the nuclear deal may or may not see Iran restarting their nuclear development program. It doesn’t really matter. Whether this program goes ahead or not it will be used as a pretext for war. Currently Israel has the monopoly of conventional missiles and nuclear weapons in the Middle East. It is a monopoly that Israel want to maintain. Israel using the pretext of destroying Iran’s nuclear capabilities will attempt to destroy Iran’s conventional missile capabilities.

    Israel may feel confident in doing this knowing that Iran has become isolated from the rest of the Arab world over their role in Syria.

    Worries of War Between Israel, Iran Increase
    VOA, March 28, 2018

    “Beyond allowing Iran to re-initiate a nuclear weapons program, our trashing of the deal would send a signal to Israel that Washington would countenance something as bold as an Israeli military strike on Iran,” Ned Price, a National Security Council spokesman in the Obama administration tells VOA.

    Going by recent events rival superpowers, America and Russia ,will both sit out this coming conflagration. But they may not. Russia emboldened in Syria and wishing to protect their new influence in the Middle East and their Alliance with Iran, may threaten Israel with a Russian counter attack with Russian forces on Israel, if Israel threatens to attempt to carry out attacks Russia’s ally Iran.

    Knowing the Israelis, the Russians will be called on their threat, which would result in limited Russian air strikes on Israeli military bases and assets identified at having attacked Iran.

    What the US response to this escalation would be, is exercising the minds of war planners on both sides of the Atlantic.

    So what should New Zealand do?

    The US ambassador should be summoned to the Prime Minister’s office for a dressing down, and made to feel in no uncertain terms this country’s displeasure at this move to war. And be asked to convey this message to Washington.

    As a further protest, New Zealand’s diplomatic staff in Washington could be recalled

    • Gosman 10.1

      There is no way the Russians would attempt to take on Israel in Israel. It would be suicidal.

      • dukeofurl 10.1.1

        Israel has found it hard taking on hezbollah !

        • Gosman 10.1.1.1

          In what way hard? Hezbollah has not made many successful attacks against Israeli targets that I am aware of.

          • Ad 10.1.1.1.1

            Go back a few years into Lebanon.

            • Gosman 10.1.1.1.1.1

              How is this evidence of Israel finding it hard to take on Hezbollah ?

              • Ad

                You can check out the results of the 2006 war between Israel and Hezbollah here and decide for yourself.

                https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2006_Lebanon_War

                As for the current unofficial peace they have at the border, I don’t see anything happening against Israel until plenty of other aggressive buildups and positions fall in to place.

                But falling into place they are.

              • Exkiwiforces

                Goggle it or Wikipedia it to enlighten yourself on what happened to IDF ground forces when they back into Lebanon as makes for some interesting and somber reading my POV.

                I think Bibi has reach the point in what is called the Rhodesia moment? In which the Government becomes so blinded by its Military success over the years that any Military Option will lead to success and any political settlement will in the eyes of Bibi’s cabinet is unlikely to work even though its the more logical step.

              • dukeofurl

                Evidence?

                But as is usual I can come up with some supporting evidence.
                https://www.reuters.com/article/us-israel-lebanon/israel-cant-defeat-hezbollah-israeli-expert-idUSTRE6BF20L20101216

                “Israel does not know how to beat Hezbollah,” said Giora Eiland, an army ex-general who served as national security adviser to former prime ministers Ariel Sharon and Ehud Olmert.
                What say you general Gosman?

                Your turn Gosman, to flag the whole thing, and raise another red herring.

    • Jenny 10.2

      Israel and Iran are now fully at war in Syria over the transfer of Iranian missile systems to Iran’s Lebanese ally, Hezbollah.

      It is only a matter of time before this war between Israel and Iran, to stop Iran’s missile exports to its allies, is carried over into Iran.

      When it comes to Iran, Israel is massively out matched in every way that counts in wartime, in territory, Israel 20 thousand sq km – Iran 1.5 million sq km, in population, Israel 8 million – Iran 80 million, and in resources Israel USD $300 billion GDP – Iran USD $400 billion GDP, armed forces, Israel half million – Iran 1 million (approximate figures)

      To win this war Israel will need the US to become involved. Using the pretext of Iran’s non-existent nuclear programme, is the excuse that Tel Aviv and Washington will give for the USA to enter this war.

      Make no mistake this is a war of choice.

      What will New Zealand do?

      Our government need to distance us from this war, before it is too late and we to are dragged into this maelstrom.

      • Jenny 10.2.1

        Has the Trump Presidency been foretold in Revelations?

        For some it has.

        There are those evangelicals who believe in the prophecy of the ‘End of Days’ foretelling Jewish control of the whole of Jerusalem, a war of civilisations, and a choice of Jews to either embrace Christianity or die in the wrath of God

        https://www.independent.co.uk/voices/jerusalem-donald-trump-israel-capital-decision-reason-why-evangelical-voters-us-fear-a8099321.html

        US religious fundamentalism and the Iran nuclear deal

        The canceling of the nuclear deal with Iran has nothing to do with Iran’s nuclear programme. But all to do with Israel, and Israel’s determination to keep conventional missiles out of the hands of its enemies. And a US president who does the bidding his evangelical Christian backers aligned with Israel.

        President Trump has a record of giving into these fundamentalist Christian Zionists, who call him one of their own, despite Trump’s less than traditional moral Christian lifestyle, something which these Christian fundamentalist fanatics are willing to overlook. In exchange Trump gives these fundamentalists everything they want, even if what they want is war.

        If Israel wants Jerusalem as their capital they got it.

        If Israel wants to keep missiles out of the hands of their enemies they got it.

        If Israel wants war with Iran they got it

        What has been New Zealand’s response to this insanity?

        There seems to be some uncertainty about how to respond.

        Winston Peters has said that Trump’s decision to pull out of the Iran Nuclear Deal was;

        “worrying” and “concerning” and “increased anxiety across the globe”.

        In his statement the Foreign Minister also seemed to be expressing some doubt about “the Americans’ claims”.

        He said if the Americans’ claims were true, then a nuclear arms race was taking place.

        “Well, it (a nuclear arms race) is something that’s happening at the moment in terms of the claim by the Americans that these people (Iran) are arming themselves in the same way North Korea was.”

        https://www.tvnz.co.nz/one-news/new-zealand/winston-peters-says-trump-s-decision-pull-iran-nuclear-deal-worrying#

        The Forieign Minister was asked what did he think New Zealand could or should do?

        “To be honest with you, not a great deal other than to add our voice to the sound international pressure from countries with like values with views of a sound society wit rule of law being what it should be.”

        https://www.tvnz.co.nz/one-news/new-zealand/winston-peters-says-trump-s-decision-pull-iran-nuclear-deal-worrying#

        But will we?

        Will the US ambassador be called into the beehive and asked to explain? Will the Americans’ official representative here be given a message from our government to take to Washington that this decision goes against the rule of international law. Will we be spelling out to the US representative that New Zealand will not be giving any support to any war of choice that the US chooses to wage against Iran?

        Or will we tamely go down the road of accepting having to go into another US war of choice, against our best interests?

        • Jenny 10.2.1.1

          What does Donald Trump mean when he says that he wants to negotiate a much better deal with Iran?

          President Trump has argued for a better deal — one in which, for instance, Iran accepts permanent limits on its enrichment program or its missile development. But is that realistic?

          https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/monkey-cage/wp/2018/05/08/trump-wants-to-wring-a-better-deal-from-iran-heres-why-thats-so-unlikely/?utm_term=.bd6fc848c41a

          It looks that Trump wants the Nuclear agreement against the development of Nuclear weapons by Iran to also include the abandonment or destruction of Iran’s conventionally armed missile capability as well.

          Iran’s missile capability is something that is of deep concern to US ally, Israel. Israel wants to maintain the missile gap it has over every other country in the Middle East. With the threat of full scale war between Iran and Israel getting closer, the Iranian Mufti has threatened to launch missile attacks on Tel Aviv and other Israeli cities if Israel launches an attack on Iran. Israel wants to be able to threaten missile strikes against other countries in the Middle East and not face any threat of retaliation.

          In my opinion this goal can only be achieved by massive military action by Israel US and the US.

          Ayatollah Ahmad Khatami told worshippers in Tehran: “If it does anything foolish, we will raze Tel Aviv and Haifa to the ground.”

          https://www.thesun.co.uk/news/6268575/iran-threatens-to-destroy-israels-cities-if-country-does-anything-foolish

  11. fustercluck 11

    “Wrecker in chief.”

    What exactly is wrecked?

    A surging USA economy?
    Record unemployment among blacks and hispanics?
    Near record unemployment among women?
    Record stock market?
    NK and SK negotiating an end to war and denuclearisation of the Korean Peninsula? Increasing prosecution of gangs and pedophiles?
    Securing of the USA borders as is the constitutional responsibility of the President?
    ISIS nearly eradicated?
    Pulling out of TPP (long a goal of the NZ left)?

    You may have no affinity for a NY properly developer’s style, and you may have an allergic reaction to Republicans in general, but saying Trump is a “wrecker” is just showing your refusal to look at facts.

    Chill out on the ad hominem and focus on policy and maybe your arguments will betaken seriously.

    (And you offer no support to your assertion that Trump “relied” on Israeli intelligence. You are just making stuff up, aren’t you?!)

    • dukeofurl 11.1

      The economy Trump inherited from Obama.

      The borders are no different from 5 years ago. Obama was the ‘deporter in chief’

      Most overstayers arrive at airports with valid visas.

      • Gosman 11.1.1

        So would you agree the good economic figures in NZ are also as a result of the previous government?

        • fustercluck 11.1.1.1

          Bazinga!

        • dukeofurl 11.1.1.2

          I well remember back in 2010 or so the clamour from people like you Gosman….
          “Governments dont create jobs” as to why the unemployment rate is rising.

          As for Trump, well see his ‘record after 4 years ‘ rather than the coasting’ after 15 months.
          Of course the massive stimulus of tax cuts to massively raise the deficit was a good idea this time around when the economy is booming ?
          Of course that is a terrible idea to your kind of thinking isnt it Gosman

          • Gosman 11.1.1.2.1

            Yes. I dislike Trumps economics almost as much as I dislike the left’s economics

      • fustercluck 11.1.2

        I see you are a Paul Krugman acolyte. Check back in a couple more years and see how that works for you.

      • fustercluck 11.1.3

        What about ISIS, NK, etc.? Was that Obama too?

  12. Adrian Thornton 12

    So Trump is going to walk into a meeting with North Korea with talks of some sort of disarmament treaty, while displaying that the US and it’s proxies plainly won’t honor these treaties as soon as it doesn’t suit them…strange position for the US to start negotiations from you would think.

    Especially as there absolutely no question Iran has complied fully with this treaty….
    “Trump’s Top General Says Iran Honoring Nuke Deal”
    http://foreignpolicy.com/2017/09/26/trumps-top-general-says-iran-honoring-nuke-deal/

    Unfortunately we don’t get to hear too many voices of reason much anymore, no we just give our precious airtime to insane warmongers like Benjamin Netanyahu.

    Isn’t it strange that all the big hitters in journalism on the Middle East, ie; Fisk, Pillinger etc, or for that matter any jurno who doesn’t tow the party line are no longer ( or extremely rarely) heard on pretty much any MSM….

    Noam Chomsky – The 5 Filters of the Mass Media Machine

    • fustercluck 12.1

      Read Art of the Deal and you will get a sense of what is going on. Killing bad deals and honouring good ones is good practice. It will give confidence that a deal that is mutually beneficial will be upheld rather than relying on a bad deal that lurches from crisis to crisis. Oversimplifying the psychology at play may help here on a wee NZ blog but it does nothing in the real world.

      • I have a copy of that fine book on display in my window as I type.

        My favorite review of the book is by the author himself(Tony Schwartz)…”Schwartz repeated his self-criticism on Good Morning America, saying he had “put lipstick on a pig””

        • fustercluck 12.1.1.1

          I did not review or critique the book as a literary piece. I merely suggested that the strategies contained therein, even if Trump worked with a ghostwriter as most celebrity “authors” do, would give some insight into his behaviour at present. You could get similar insight from Sun Tzu, which Trump claims to have read in the past. I do not think Tolstoy has anything to fear from Trump’s books, but I do think they are relevant and informative.

      • Incognito 12.1.2

        I doubt Trump read anything in the past, except perhaps his bank statements. More likely he watched Dirty Harry saying:

        Do I feel lucky? Well, do ya, punk?

        It appears to appeal to many who voted for the Don; the same people who worship The Second Amendment (AKA Gun in one hand, Bible in the other).

        I doubt that the Don would pass the Turing Test; he’d fool it, rather, and break all the known rules of engagement. This might be useful in business & innovation (AKA Destructive Creation) but for the Leader of the Free World it seems a little misplaced to me. I’ll clutch my pearls more tightly …

  13. Adrian Thornton 13

    When it comes to US Middle East foreign policy I would suggest you read one of benjamin netanyahu books to really get an idea of what is going…I would also suggest you would probably get fuller ‘relevant and informative’ picture of the events of today re; Iran, than if you were to read the Art of the Deal..of that I am sure.

  14. Lettuce 14

    The real reasons Trump pulled out of the JCPOA explained:

    https://lobelog.com/three-billionaires-paved-way-for-trumps-iran-deal-withdrawal/

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