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US Election Discussion Post 26/10/16

Written By: - Date published: 5:55 am, October 26th, 2016 - 81 comments
Categories: us politics, you couldn't make this shit up - Tags: , ,

Tony Benn only democracy

In order to free up Open Mike and Daily Review for other conversations we are asking that all discussion, posting of links etc on the US election go in this daily dedicated thread rather than OM or DR.

The usual rules of good behaviour apply (see the Policy).

There will continue to be author-written posts on the US election as well, usual rules apply there too.

81 comments on “US Election Discussion Post 26/10/16 ”

  1. Andre 1

    Clinton nails it with the right kind of hat for Trumpets to wear


    What’s best is they don’t even attenuate the radiation frequencies the government uses, sometimes they even amplify them.


    • Andre 2.1

      As someone on Twitter says, that explains how we got President Dracula, President Slutty Nurse, and President Elsa (from Frozen).

  2. Andre 3

    Some interesting points about how well aligned Trump and Clinton’s views are with their supporters. With another one of those vote compass type questionnaires.


  3. Nic the NZer 4

    Discussion of Hilaries non-official position on wages and worker protections.


    Will she do what she says in public or what she says in private (no they are in no way comesurate)?

    • One Anonymous Bloke 4.1

      Um, so she’s saying that China has realised you can’t increase profits by driving down wages forever, and that this realisation is a “good thing”.

      Oh, and I searched the three speeches – available as .doc attachments from Wikileaks, for the passage your link quotes…”Thirdly, they seem to — and you all are the experts on this…”

      It isn’t there, so I wonder where William Black got it from.

    • One Anonymous Bloke 4.2

      Ok, so I have now found the speech in question.

      She’s saying exactly what I wrote above.

      William Black either has problems understanding long sentences, or he’s lying.

  4. One Anonymous Bloke 5

    Wikileaks exposes just how bad that Clinton is. Imagine having the effrontery to try and counter Murdoch’s genocidal stupidity 🙄

    • Ad 5.1

      In a non-Trump election, if Hillary had been found out to have taken that much from the King of Morocco, she would have shed 5% in a week. Only Fox really picked up on it.

      Trump is turning into that Men In Black amnesia flash-pen.

      • dukeofurl 5.1.1

        Take from the King ?
        It was for the charity right. You do realise that. or do have this quaint idea that charities just sit back and the money pours in

        “If your company is interested in finding out booking fees and availability for a Business Speaker like Bill Gates or other celebrities for a Charity Event, Celebrity Appearance, Autograph Session, VIP Meet and Greet, Television Commercial or Social Media Campaign, call us at ….”


        Of course Gates doesnt need the money but realises that his name will bring in the dollars for a charitable event

  5. Andre 7

    James O’Keefe and Project Veritas hire the nicest people for those videos they make.


    • And Bob Creamer himself happens to be a felon. He is married to a Democrat congressional representative, and records show he made numerous official visits to the White House – including several audiences with President Obama. He’s had a long career working for the Democratic Party, so I guess you won’t object if I state:

      President Obama and the Democratic party hire the nicest people for those campaigns they run.


      • Andre 7.1.1

        Cheque-kiting and a tax violation (with everybody paid in full in the end) to keep a (slightly dodgy) non-profit afloat, versus trying to blackmail Letterman over alleged extramarital affairs. Yeah, I can see some sort of equivalence there.

        So no, I won’t object to your comment about the Democratic Party and Obama hires.

        • Cemetery Jones

          Well you’re the one who suggested that hiring a felon is an issue upon which to judge individuals and organisations. And now you would own that tax violations are of a lesser impact on an individual’s credibility – unless Donald Trump did it? All squared away.

  6. Andre 8

    The open lawsuits against the candidates (mostly Trump) and how it may affect their work as president.


  7. AsleepWhileWalking 9

    One of my American friends was telling me a version of this story last week. Basically she said the latest Trump rally she tried to attend had lines around the block so she couldn’t get in.

    In the link below (one of many such stories I’ve come across) shows picture evidence of who is the more popular selection.


    • dukeofurl 9.1

      Thats been de-bunked last week.

      Mitt Romney had even bigger crowds just before the last election too.

      • Mitt Romney had bigger crowds than Trump, this is correct.

        But when you say that the claim that Trump rallies are bigger than Clinton rallies has been debunked, please elaborate. There are photos or videos which disprove this?

        • Ad

          In New Zealand in the 1980s you could still go to evangelical Christian rallies here in multiple tens of thousands, promising to take the country over in a great golden wave of glory. Hilarious hysteria.

          Even then they were in terminal % decline. Now they barely register.

          Same thing. Analogue space politics is the very definition of unreality.

        • dukeofurl

          Clinton doesnt do that sort of big rallies. Not really sure why the GOP is stuck in that grove. Muldoon used to do it here as well

          • Cemetery Jones

            In at least one of the venues in those photos – and a couple more I’ve seen online over the last few months – Clinton has used outdoor venues which would be more than capable of taking those kinds of crowds. But sod all people showed up.

            So you’re not sure why the GOP is ‘stuck’ in this ‘groove’? Perhaps then you could ask Jeremy Corbyn, who regularly speaks at rallies the size of Trump’s. Do you think these rallies of thousands of people which Jeremy Corbyn is turning out are simply a ‘groove’ his movement is ‘stuck’ in?

  8. Pasupial 10

    It seems almost redundant at this point to point out that Trump is a sleazy creep. But this piece from someone who has been observing him for thirty years adds another level of ickiness:

    The morals of Donald J. Trump, as a longtime model lover and then a modeling agency owner, were forged in another era, one in which young girls were used as a sort of currency between men doing business with one another…

    confirmed that Trump, as I’ve reported, used to host parties in suites at the Plaza Hotel when he owned it, where young women and girls were introduced to older, richer men. This is hardly aberrant behavior in the modeling business. Indeed, it is standard operating procedure… Young models were attracted to the fêtes with a simple, time-tested pitch. “You’ll meet rich guys who will help you,” says the photographer. “It was networking, but on a weird, bizarre scale.”

    The girls were as young as 15, he says, and “over their heads, they had no idea, and they ended up in situations…

    Those men at these parties often knew each other. “It’s a small community,” the photographer says. “They exchanged information, facilitated each other. Trump was in and out. He’d wander off with a couple girls. I saw him…

    did he have sex with his female party guests? “So, he’s a man with a woman,” Lucchesi says vaguely. How old were they? “A lot of girls, 14, look 24. That’s as juicy as I can get. I never asked how old they were; I just partook. I did partake in activities that would be controversial, too.”


    In the USA; sex with those under the age of 18 is statutory rape (actually that is so even if a US citizen was to come to somewhere like NZ with a lower age of consent and do so in that country, not that this stops them and you don’t hear about many convictions for it). A history of sexual assault is one thing (and while it has demolished Trump’s female support, some males are not that bothered), running a pedophile ring is quite another. Then of course there’s the Jane Doe vs Trump/ Epstein case that is proceeding to a status conference hearing (she was 13 in 1994).


    But the main thing that this brought to mind was an article from last week’s Guardian comparing Trump to Berlusconi. This might be his Bunga Bunga party moment:

    So-called gaffes were a frequent part of Berlusconi’s political strategy – a dog-whistle strategy that included frequent recourse to sexist, homophobic and racist stereotypes, and reference to his belief that he was irresistible to women. He flaunted his Don Giovanni image, but also attempted to keep a parallel reputation as a family man, whose main concern was the welfare of his five children.

    His electoral campaigns were all about him. Nothing else mattered…

    The Berlusconi phenomenon shows that a post-truth politician can rise to power in one of the world’s strongest and richest countries. The lesson for America is that for far too long Berlusconi was treated as a joke and a clown. By the end, nobody was laughing.


  9. Tory 11

    It’s a pity that CV was banned as this post have moved from a “heated debate” to an “Andre Love Fest” for Clinton.
    Rather like ‘out of the frypan and into the fire’.

    Bring back CV I say …….

    • left_forward 11.1

      I don’t miss him – nice to have some air to breathe around the US election discussion for a change.

      • Pasupial 11.1.1

        Out of curiosity, when is CV due back? The initial ban was only a week I think, but then there was some posting as an author [and commenting as moderator] which was quickly removed, which might have extended that. I’ve been busy over the weekend so may have missed something in that drama.

        At this stage, we could almost stand to collapse the US election post back into OM/ DR – but I guess it’ll be useful in a fortnight.

        • te reo putake

          CV’s back Friday. As you’ve spotted, putting up posts could be seen as thumbing one’s nose at the ban, particularly when the posts contained pointed references to the banning, but the usual harmony, sweetness and light that characterises the comradely bond between authors here at TS has meant no further sanction has been invoked and no doubt we can expect further updates on Trump’s easy win and the greatness that was Nazi Germany early doors.

          • Manuka AOR

            updates on Trump’s easy win and the greatness that was Nazi Germany early doors.

            Heh 🙂

        • weka

          At this stage, we could almost stand to collapse the US election post back into OM/ DR – but I guess it’ll be useful in a fortnight.

          If the posts stay quiet I will most likely drop them down to a couple a week instead of moving the discussion back to OM.

        • weka

          For clarity’s sake, most of the authors that commented in the back end agreed that both CV and TRP handled that whole thing badly. The situation remains unresolved, but CV’s ban as a commenter ends after the initial week. It’s more complex than that, I don’t want to get into it further here, but I felt the need to clarify.

          • Ad

            Like sands through the hourglass,
            these are the Days of Our Lives.

          • Peter Swift

            “The situation remains unresolved”

            Permanently revoking his ‘author’ rights would go a long way to sorting it.
            And it has to be said that topics have been more lucid and much easier to follow in his absence.
            Just saying.

          • te reo putake

            For further clarity, weka agreed the ban was merited. The other two who moaned about it would complain whatever I did and usually do. And, from memory, the major complaint they had is that I left out the word ‘briefly’ when referencing CV’s admiration for Hitler’s alleged restoration of German greatness, like that weaselly qualification matters one fucken iota.

            • weka

              Again, this is a misrepresentation of both my own views and those of other moderators/authors about the whole situation that both CV and TRP were involved in (not just CV). I’m not willing to say more detail here because I don’t think it helps the situation, but I’m also not willing to let the situation be misrepresented.

              • No, it’s perfectly accurate. It’s what you said, it’s what they said. But, hey, you’ve successfully mounted your high horse, so well done. Off you trot…

                • Anne

                  I’m not taking sides because I have little idea what has been going on. I stopped reading the diatribes on the US election because I found CV’s incessant trolling (what else could you call it) too much to take. That is not to say his contributions on other subjects are not usually worthwhile reading.

                  But I sometimes think trp’s style of writing is misunderstood by some Kiwis. It is the writing of a very smart individual of English origin and it is eloquent, sometimes perverse, often provocative but always humorous. My very English father possessed the same ‘qualities’ and frequently got himself into loads of trouble because of it.

                  Keep it up trp. It’s entertaining. 😎

                  • Cheers, Anne. My late sainted mum was a librarian, so I spent a lot of time reading as a kid. I’ve also been a Private Eye reader since my late teens, which helped hone my writing style. While never a fulltime journo, I have written for money, which is satisfying for both ego and wallet. Also, I did briefly work for NZ’s oldest newspaper. Though, to be fair, that gig was as a 13 year old and I had a Raleigh chopper for a company vehicle 😉

                • xanthe

                  Hi trp
                  I did as suggested email my views on how the moderation could perhaps be more “moderate” and less stressful for moderators !

                  The only feedback was what seemed to be form response from lprent saying (and i paraphrase here) we build the site and volunteer our time so that means we can be arogant pricks. (Thats the short version)

                  I do actually feel thats a fair enought attitude !…. But I would be interested to know : did the moderators collectively see my email, was there anything useful in it (in terms of reducing stress and tension onsite)

                  Thanks xanthe

              • weka

                The reason I am saying it’s a misrepresentation is that TRP is making out it’s all about CV’s misdemeanours, whereas the conversation amongst authors is just as much about TRP’s behaviour as moderator and the problems it has been causing, not for the first time. The major complaints aren’t about a single word at all.

                Again, I don’t want to hash out the details here, but I’m not comfortable with letting this be misrepresented.

                Now off I trot to the chippy.

                • I didn’t make out it was all about CV, weka. I was clear that the back channel moaning you referred to was about me, and that it was from the usual suspects. Anyhoo, enjoy the chips. I’m off to open mike night to sing some Lou Reed (3 years dead tomorrow, pop fans). Readers in the Richmond area are welcome to pop down to Jane’s. Free entry, rotten fruit optional.

      • Tory 11.1.2

        Of course purging of opinion from non Democratic supporters is well doccumented and not unusual:

        “…if-indulgent. Obama’s clearing room on the plane for — what? Documentarians who will produce hagiographies about his historic importance. That fits into another pattern we’ve seen for months, one marked with fake presidential seals, The Barackopolis, and infomercials. In the coming Age of Obama, only the worshipers will get front-row seats to history”.


    • Andre 11.2

      I love you too, Tory!

  10. Ovid 12

    Short answer: no. This explains why.

    • Siobhan 12.1

      Not rigged, but also not Democracy. America is a Plutocracy.

      And yes, in my spare time I add Chomsky books to my local libraries ‘US Election’ display.

      • Pasupial 12.1.1

        While I like John Green (his Crash Course & Mental Floss YouTubing more than his novels), he is quibbling a bit there in separating; voter suppression, from; vote rigging. Palast is good on this (having followed the process through multiple elections, though I haven’t yet seen his; “best democracy money can buy” doco):

        When Donald Trump claimed, “the election’s going to be rigged,” he wasn’t entirely wrong. But the threat was not, as Trump warned, from Americans committing the crime of “voting many, many times.” What’s far more likely to undermine democracy in November is the culmination of a decade-long Republican effort to disenfranchise voters under the guise of battling voter fraud. The latest tool: Election officials in more than two dozen states have compiled lists of citizens whom they allege could be registered in more than one state – thus potentially able to cast multiple ballots – and eligible to be purged from the voter rolls…

        We had Mark Swedlund, a database expert whose clients include eBay and American Express, look at the data from Georgia and Virginia, and he was shocked by Crosscheck’s “childish methodology.” He added, “God forbid your name is Garcia, of which there are 858,000 in the U.S., and your first name is Joseph or Jose. You’re probably suspected of voting in 27 states.”…
        This inherent bias results in an astonishing one in six Hispanics, one in seven Asian-Americans and one in nine African-Americans in Crosscheck states landing on the list. Was the program designed to target voters of color? “I’m a data guy,” Swedlund says. “I can’t tell you what the intent was. I can only tell you what the outcome is. And the outcome is discriminatory against minorities.”…

        At this point, there’s no way to know how each state plans to move forward. If Virginia’s 13 percent is any indication, almost 1 million Americans will have their right to vote challenged. Our analysis suggests that winding up on the Crosscheck list is hardly proof that an individual is registered in more than one state. Based on the data, the program – whether by design or misapplication – could save the GOP from impending electoral annihilation. And not surprisingly, almost all Crosscheck states are Republican-controlled.

        The man behind crosscheck is Kansas Secretary of State Kris Kobach, a Yale-educated former law professor. After 9/11, U.S. Attorney General John Ashcroft tasked Kobach with creating a system to track foreign travelers. (It was later shut down over concerns about racial profiling.) He is best known as the author of Arizona’s “Driving While Brown Law,” which allowed cops to pull over drivers and ask for proof of their legal status. He co-wrote the ultraconservative 2016 RNC party platform, working in a recommendation that Crosscheck be adopted by every state in the Union. He’s also the Trump adviser who came up with a proposal to force Mexico into paying for Trump’s wall.


        • dukeofurl

          I bet all the Smiths and Jones wont be barred from voting using as the reason the name appears in multiple states

  11. adam 13

    This is getting weird.

  12. Manuka AOR 14

    “What Trump, Clinton and even Stein are Missing”

    … the global power imbalance between corporations and governments.

    Earth is dying. A few hundred billionaires are consolidating their control of the Earth’s remaining real wealth. Racism is rampant. And violence devastates millions of lives. These issues do get mention, though less than they deserve. What is not mentioned, the elephant in the room, is that which blocks serious action on these and other critical threats to the human future: the glaring and growing global power imbalance between corporations that represent purely financial interests and the institutions of government we depend on to represent the interests of people and living communities.
    The healthy function of society requires that governments be accountable to the electorate and that corporations in turn be accountable to democratic governments. Our ability to deal with every other issue of our time—from climate disruption to inequality to violence—depends on that accountability.


    This is Part One of a series by David Korten, about this topic.

  13. Manuka AOR 15

    “We Never Voted for Corporate Rule”

    In Part One, I argued that a healthy society requires that governments be accountable to the people for the well-being of all, and that corporations be accountable to democratic governments.

    Last week, Bayer, a transnational drug and pesticide company, secured funding for its $66 billion offer to acquire Monsanto, the world’s largest producer of agricultural seeds. This follows the announced $130 billion merger of chemical giants Dow and DuPont, and ChemChina’s proposed $43 billion purchase of the seed and pesticide firm Syngenta.

    Bayer, DuPont, Dow, Monsanto, and Syngenta are five of the world’s six biggest pesticide and seed corporations. There are claims, which I find credible, that the “Big 6” and their products bear major responsibility for pesticide-resistant weeds and insects, and are implicated in impoverishment of small farmers, collapse of honeybee colonies, water pollution, and loss of biodiversity and soil fertility—all serious attacks on the common good. And similar consolidation continues in most every sector of the economy.

    As individual corporations grow in size, global reach, and political power, we see a corresponding shift in the primary function of national governments—from serving the interests of their citizens to assuring the security of corporate property and profits. They apply police and military powers to this end, subsidize corporate operations, and facilitate corporate tax evasion. They let corporations off the hook with slap-on-the-wrist fines for criminal actions. Rarely, if ever, do they punish top executives.

    Part 2 of David Korten’s series.

  14. Manuka AOR 16

    A critique of Libertarianism

    And, while Trump is running as a Republican, he has been described as “more Libertarian than Gary Johnson” on certain issues.

  15. dukeofurl 17

    Its not just this year that the GOP has been crazy.
    Clinton at the Al Smith dinner- first catholic to be major party nominee back in 1928

    “And when I think about what Al Smith went through, it’s important to just reflect how groundbreaking it was for him, a Catholic, to be my party’s nominee for president. Don’t forget—school boards sent home letters with children saying that if Al Smith is elected president, you will not be allowed to have or read a Bible. Voters were told that he would annul Protestant marriages.’

  16. Andre 18

    Pussy Riot has a message for Trump.


    Could be risky dissing Putin’s puppet like that.

    • Manuka AOR 19.1

      Stein: “They don’t have a solution to the expanding wars except more wars. We are already bombing seven countries and now we do appear to be engaging in this war crime in Yemen where we have been partnering with the Saudis in this war crime for the past year.”
      Stein said: “We’re already bombing seven countries.”
      Politifact identified seven countries lately bombed by the U.S.: Pakistan, Somalia, Yemen, Afghanistan, Syria, Iraq and Libya.
      We rate the claim True.

      • Manuka AOR 19.1.1

        Some more numbers:

        14.2 Million: Estimated number of refugees in the world
        10 Million: Number of people across the world who are “stateless” – no country recognizes them as a national.
        33.3 Million: Around 33.3 million people have been forced to leave their homes, but stay within their own country (known as internally displaced people). https://www.amnesty.org/en/what-we-do/people-on-the-move/?gclid=CNmr953u988CFRUHvAodimsNbw

        The total at the end of 2015 reached 65.3 million — or one out of every 113 people on Earth, according to the United Nations High Commissioner for Refugees (UNHCR). The number represents a 5.8 million increase on the year before.

        A little under 1% of the earth’s population is either “an asylum-seeker, internally displaced or a refugee” according to the UNHCR report, which was released Monday. [Dated June 20]

        The report offers three main reasons for the increase in the rate of forced displacements:

        Long-term situations, such as the conflict in Afghanistan that cause large refugee outflows, are lasting longer; “dramatic new or reignited situations” such as the conflicts in Syria and South Sudan are occurring with a greater frequency; and “the rate at which solutions are being found for refugees and internally displaced people has been on a falling trend since the end of the Cold War.” http://edition.cnn.com/2016/06/20/world/unhcr-displaced-peoples-report/

  17. pat 21

    Monbiot on Trump (or aspiration)…

    “We love to horrify ourselves with his excesses, and to see him as a monstrous outlier, the polar opposite of everything a modern, civilised society represents. But he is nothing of the kind. He is the distillation of all that we have been induced to desire and admire. Trump is so repulsive not because he offends our civilisation’s most basic values, but because he embodies them.”


  18. Andre 22

    Probably the only climate debate we’re going to get this presidential election.


  19. Andre 23

    Of course Trump is going to win yuuuge on November 8th. Look at the evidence, how many journalists does Hillary get to turn up to the opening of one of her hotels? How many days has it been since Hillary opened a hotel?


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