There really are some talented people out there. great vid. someone better email it to Tracy Watkins et al, otherwise they won’t see it… this interweb thing is beyond some of them.
These are the seven graphs that should make you ask: What? Has global warming now stopped?
Look for yourself. They show that the world hasn’t warmed for a decade, and has even cooled for several years.
Sea ice now isn’t melting, but spreading. The seas have not just stopped rising, but started to fall.
Nor is the weather getting wilder. Cyclones, as well as tornadoes and hurricanes, aren’t increasing and the rain in Australia hasn’t stopped falling.
What’s more, the slight warming we saw over the century until 1998 still makes the world no hotter today than it was 1000 years ago.
In fact, it’s even a bit cooler. So, dude, where’s my global warming?
the nats will never respond to environmental issues because they are the party of the short term. maximising profits and to hell with anything else. I want my home in the south of france, a pied a terre in London, matching his and hers bentleys and enough money in th ebank to go and terrify the bank manager by threatening to move it elsewhere. anything else is a figment of fevered imagination…now where did I put my chainsaw?
It’s actually possible to argue that National has come a long way on climate change. It was only three years ago that party leader John Key labelled Kyoto a hoax and called the whole idea of climate change into question. “… The impact of the Kyoto Protocol, even if one believes in global warming—and I am somewhat suspicious of it—is that we will see billions and billions of dollars poured into fixing something that we are not even sure is a problem. ” (2005). (Not sure it’s a problem? Christ, what was he waiting for zero summer ice in the Arctic; longer droughts; another hottest year on record; another wiped out species?) The leadership has since cottoned on to the fact that New Zealanders will no longer tolerate this stance. However, the party’s environment and energy policies are a major step backward. They suggest National is living in an alternate reality in which there’s no such thing as climate change. The policies fail to acknowledge that climate change even exists, let alone recognise it for the crisis it is. Not that we would have expected much more from “sexy coal’ Brownlee (http://brownlee.co.nz/index.php?/archives/41-Video-Newsletter-5.html_). If Gerry thinks coal is sexy, I dread to think how he behaves around Huntly, or Solid Energy for that matter. On that note, last year Greenpeace also found some heads in sand: http://weblog.greenpeace.org.nz/climate-change/day-dreaming-heads-in-the-sand/#img
As I said, there is NO consensus. The world isn’t even heating up anymore. The world is NOT going to end and you Warm-mongers should stop scaring the children.
Ahh G, haven’t seen you about since cynic gave you such an awful thumping. Glad to see you survived after all.
Now, some of the graphs in the articles you cite are irrelevant, and some of them are too short to show the trends. You need to read the basics, where such arguments are refuted:
Re ice and melting, Arctic ice has retreated so much that new shipping lanes have opened up, and there are looming international debates over newly accessible mineral, oil and fishing rights:
As well as Arctic (and Antarctic) ice melt, glaciers (one of the most sensitive indicators of global warming) are receding world wide – see dramatic images here:
Yes, cause and effect are difficult to prove conclusively, but the overwhelming body of scientific evidence is now agreed by the overwhelming majority of scientists:
On Feb. 2, 2007, the United Nations scientific panel studying climate change declared that the evidence of a warming trend is “unequivocal,’ and that human activity has “very likely’ been the driving force in that change over the last 50 years. The last report by the group, the Intergovernmental Panel on Climate Change, in 2001, had found that humanity had “likely’ played a role.
The addition of that single word “very’ did more than reflect mounting scientific evidence that the release of carbon dioxide and other heat-trapping gases from smokestacks, tailpipes and burning forests has played a central role in raising the average surface temperature of the earth by more than 1 degree Fahrenheit since 1900. It also added new momentum to a debate that now seems centered less over whether humans are warming the planet, but instead over what to do about it.
Governments all over the world (and many individual states in America) are taking action to combat climate change. Either they are all fools G, or you are.
This, of course, includes the very inconvenient truth that the DVD is still being released with its cornerstone ‘fact’, the Hockey Stick, which the IPCC has conceded is bent and subsequently dropped from their reports.
And now the founder of the Weather Channel is gathering 30,000 scientists to sue Al Gore to finally precipitate a debate on the subject. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FfHW7KR33IQ
But singularly the biggest nail in the warmist’s hoax is the fact that all their ‘bias in/bias out’ computer models are failing one-by-one to prove accurate as the Earth inevitably contradicts their predictions:
Have you noticed the Earth has cooled over the last few years with record lows recorded worldwide? Remember the silly bitches who made a trek to the North Pole to raise warming awareness only to be pulled out in a rescue mission and have most of their digits amputated from frostbite?
Seriously, Rob, you’re all starting to look foolish. 🙂
[G. This is a site for intelligent debate. Climate change denialism doesn’t fit meet that criterion, it hasn’t done so for the last 20 years at least. If you want to make silly arguments, go to Kiwiblog, you’ll have plenty of company. SP]
[lprent: If you’re going to attempt to argue, then at least learn something about the topic. I’m tired of the fatuous fools like you who seem to think that the earth’s hydrosphere and atmosphere operate like a classic black-body. If you don’t know what I’lm talking about then I suggest you try some elementary physics. You should also have a look at the current sizes of the artic sea ice during summer compared to historical values, and the increase in speed of the west antartic (?sp) glaciers. Then contemplate what an increasing flow of cold water due to melting does to the temperate zones where the currents flow to.
In the meantime don’t bother with fatuous arguments and links to publicity stunts.
I think that there should be more compulsary science – and people aren’t allowed to leave school until they’re passed some level of competence. ]
There is a growing stack of evidence to the contrary: starting with the fact that man-made CO2 contributes a gnat-sized 0.0054% of greenhouse gases (oh yeah, that’ll be the tipping point *phht*), the fact that CO2 levels lag temps by 200 years, the fact that the IPCC concedes it can’t explain why there was a spike in temps during the first 50 years of the 20th century, the fact that Earth’s temp tracks Sun Spot activity (who woulda thought, eh ~ it’s the Sun that controls our warming!), the fact that global temps have plateaued since 1998 despite CO2 continuing its climb, and the fact that more than 30,000 scientists now contradict anthropological global warming altogether… but carry on with your consensus cartoon if you wish. It’s your blog; it’s entirely your prerogative.
Just don’t tell us you’re looking for any debate because that’s a lie:
SP: “This is a site for intelligent debate. Climate change denialism doesn’t fit meet that criterion…”
Some brief points on your evident lack of education.
If you were correct about insolation effects, then the 11 year sunspot cycle would manifest in temps as a direct ratio of insolation energies. It doesn’t because those effects are buffered, largely by water and atmosphere.
There is an influence from solar and that will affect gross temps – but it is a long cycle. eg the long cycle warming from the 13th (eg greenland settlement) to 17th century (when the thames froze) to the warm period at the start of the 20th. Although I’d tend to ascribe a high proportion of the latter spike to CO2 and other gases generated from some of the large volcano’s in the late 19th century.
We are definitely on the peak (or just past it) of one of those cycles, but it is insufficent to explain the temp effects measured since geophysical year in 1957.
BTW: Before you raise that press driven fear of an iceage in the 1970’s, I’d point out that was a local effect in the major industrialised areas due to dust. It did not manifest in readings worldwide. Boy, I get tired of idiots raising those press reports.
The basic fact is that CO2 levels have risen dramatically. While it has a lower effect as a greenhouse gas than other gases, it is far an away the largest by volume which makes up for its limited entropic effect.
This article will give you the link to the current NOAA figures on CO2.
Scientists at the Mauna Loa observatory in Hawaii say that CO2 levels in the atmosphere now stand at 387 parts per million (ppm), up almost 40% since the industrial revolution and the highest for at least the last 650,000 years.
The annual mean growth rate for 2007 was 2.14ppm the fourth year in the past six to see an annual rise greater than 2ppm. From 1970 to 2000, the concentration rose by about 1.5ppm each year, but since 2000 the annual rise has leapt to an average 2.1ppm.
That probably means that the buffering action for CO2 (mainly in the oceans from the recent acidity measurements) is starting to get less effective. That is bad news, and when the IPCC finally factors that in then you can expect their estimates of timelines to shorten massively. It means that they have been over estimating buffering
Frankly if you could find say 200 working earth or climate scientists who disagree with climate change, then I’d be far more interested than having 30k random ‘scientists’ like metrologists, chemists, etc. If you haven’t dug extensively into paleoclimatology in depth, most scientists ideas are about as useless as yours are. Their timelines are too short.
Suffice it to say I like debate on climate change. I just don’t like idiots debating. It really doesn’t matter if it is Al Gore or you or your 30k scientists. If they don’t understand enough about results from the icecores, O16/O18 isotope ratios, fossil tree rings, etc then it is rather pointless.
I’d point out at this point that I did study climate change extensively in my first degree for 3 years. I’ve been reading the papers on it for about 30 years.
G. In other words you don’t know and are just pulling what other people say without understanding it. Educate yourself. Read the NOAA report.
Scientists at the Mauna Loa observatory in Hawaii say that CO2 levels in the atmosphere now stand at 387 parts per million (ppm), up almost 40% since the industrial revolution and the highest for at least the last 650,000 years.
This is AFTER the majority of the CO2 has been adsorbed in buffers.
What half-arsed report from some lame-arse are you picking that number from? Or is this just some figure you’re picking out of the air. Or are you considering that fossilised carbon being released is ‘natural’.
You could also consider the evidence from the carbon isotope ratio’s in atmospheric carbon. There is a pretty clear trace back to fossilised carbon being burnt.
According to Wiki as of November 2007, the CO2 concentration in Earth’s atmosphere was about 0.0384% (which is even less than other reports I’ve read). Even if man was responsible for as much as 10% of the Earth’s CO2, his contribution to the atmospheric gases would be less than 0.004%.
Not all gasses are greenhouse gasses you ninny. CO2 is a small percentage of all gasses, and a large percentage of greenhouse gasses. From later in the Wiki that you linked to:
Increased amounts of CO2 in the atmosphere enhance the greenhouse effect. It is currently the majority scientific opinion that carbon dioxide emissions are the main cause of global warming observed since the mid-20th century.
Should we get rid of all the Oxygen in the air? It’s only about 20% of the atmosphere – who’s going to miss it?
A gnat on an elephant’s arse
The only arse here is the one you have your head up.
I can’t be bothered to look it up. Small. But small changes can have large consequences in complex systems (eg with multiple feedback loops and buffering – Earth’s ecology). You like Wikipedia, go look up “Butterfly effect”. Or ponder the consequence of adding just a tiny bit of arsenic to a nice big meal.
Read the damn scientific literature critically, not just looking for factoids that support your point of view. There’s heaps of it linked above G – have you read any? Or even just take the word of the Wiki piece that you linked to, as quoted above.
The abundance of methane in the Earth’s atmosphere in 1998 was 1745 parts per billion, up from 700 ppb in 1750. In the same time period, CO2 increased from 278 to 365 parts per million. The radiative forcing effect due to this increase in methane abundance is about one-third of that of the CO2 increase
(please note the word billion rather than million there..)
PFC’s
PFCs are extremely potent greenhouse gases, and they are a long-term problem with a lifetime up to 50,000 years (PMID 14572085). In a 2003 study, the most abundant atmospheric PFC was tetrafluoromethane (PMID 14572085). The greenhouse warming potential (GWP) of tetrafluoromethane is 6,500 times that of carbon dioxide, and the GWP of hexafluoroethane is 9,200 times that of carbon dioxide.[24] Several governments concerned about the properties of PFCs have already tried to implement international agreements to limit their usage before it becomes a global warming issue. PFCs are one of the classes of compounds regulated in the Kyoto Protocol.
(note that there are no natural sources of PFC’s)
Nitrous Oxide
Nitrous oxide is a major greenhouse gas. Considered over a 100 year period, it has 298 times more impact per unit weight than carbon dioxide. Thus, despite its low concentration, nitrous oxide is the fourth largest contributor to these greenhouse gases.
Now water vapour is the biggest scattering agent – over 95%. However it is essentially reactive to temp’s. Look at the dewpoint at different temp’s. Higher temp’s allow higher humidity and therefore higher heat retention.
Water vapor is also a potent greenhouse gas. Because the water vapor content of the atmosphere is expected to greatly increase in response to warmer temperatures, there is the potential for a water vapor feedback that could amplify the expected climate warming effect due to increased carbon dioxide alone. However, it is less clear how cloudiness would respond to a warming climate; depending on the nature of the response, clouds could either further amplify or partly mitigate the water vapor feedback.
So despite the other greenhouse gases being less than water vapour for greenhouse effects, it is less of a problem than the other gases. Increasing the amount of water vapor will simply cause rain/dew/etc. However raising the temp will increase the saturation level of water in the atmosphere. A small increase in overall temp due to man made gases can cause a MAJOR amplification due to its effects on water vapour. Adding even small amounts of something like PFC’s causes a ‘natural’ system to amplify it’s effect.
Presumably there will be a top off effect at some point. However I’m not sure that human agricultural and cultural patterns can withstand the changes.
Essentially you are right about volumes, and utterly wrong as to the level of effect that small changes will cause.
Think of petrol being added to an engine. It is a very small amount, but causes a lot of effect when ignited.
… thanks for that exhaustive explanation, Iprent. Still, I don’t see anywhere on those links, not anywhere here a definitive percentage attributed to the anthropogenic gases. As far as I’m aware it’s miniscule, and it’s hubris to think man’s fart in the global jet stream will have ANY effect whatsoever on the 99.99% of other gases which contribute to the greenhouse effect.
If we indeed had a consensus on this – a lie Al Gore & Co. keep perpetuating – then I might have cause for concern, but we most certainly do not. The list of sceptics which include climatologists, geologists, metrologists, chemists, environmentalists (including the founder of Greenpeace), environmental journalists, media outlets, and heads of state are growing by the day.
But the best news of all (that the world isn’t actually coming to an end) is the fact that world isn’t actually coming to an end: every single bias in/bias out computer model has missed their alarmist timetable! It’s not so much the scientists which are calling this theory a load of bullshit – it’s the Earth!
G, I understand the difficulty in accepting that our CO2 release will have a tangible effect, given that a volcanic eruption can account for, say, the US’ output for a year, easily.
One thing to consider is the fragility of the system – don’t think of it as fixed, or a constant. Changes in the past have had a huge effect on the world’s climate. If a volcanic eruption can cool the planet, why can’t we?
The other way I think of it is that there is a natural system, and it was in pretty good balance. Our impact, over two centuries, has injected a massive amount of CO2 into the atmoshpere. Two salient points – the time scale is tiny – a huge change in a comparitively small time, even if the overall percentage isn’t changing too much.
The other point is that we’ve interrupted the natural carbon cycle. Greenhouse gasses are emitted naturally, say, by gasses bubling to the surface, & geothermal activity. That’s after millions of years in a deep cycle (carbon based life forms get buried, turn into fossil fuels over a long period, and return to the surface to decompose, to put it simply). We’ve dug and drilled the stuff out, and put into the atmosphere what would have taken millions of years to occur naturally.
We need a specific set of conditions to thrive – a very specific set of conditions. It’s not impossible that we’re upsetting those conditions.
And on the brighter side, climate change got people off a court charge. Fantastic.
Yes, I was going to get to the volcano dilemma, which goes to prove just how resilient the planet really is. It really doesn’t matter what we throw at it, the power of nature is greater than us all!
Here’s one of my favourite debunkers with a poetic rave on that very subject:
Of course the whole CO2 debate is predicated on CO2 actually having an effect on temperature, when in fact there is evidence to suggest the latter precedes the former by as much as 300 years.
And then there’s this:
If greenhouse warming were presently occurring you would get more warming in the troposphere, because greenhouse gases trap heat from escaping the atmosphere in the troposphere. However, that is just not the case. The data collected from satellites and weather balloons show that the earth is in fact warmer than the atmosphere. This evidence damns the theory of greenhouse effect upon climate through CO2.
It really doesn’t matter what we throw at it, the power of nature is greater than us all!
Don’t be a dickhead. The last time that volcanic eruptions probably sent out the volume of CO2 etc for a duration that we’re emitting was probably the Deccan Flats about 65M years ago.
Most volcanic events that affect the climate are rhyolitic or andesectic (?sp) events. But they are of short duration usually only running for a few years. The basaltic eruptions run for longer but (by comparison) do not do much out-gassing. The gases tend to get bound up far more strongly into the rock structure because of mantle temps and pressures.
Consequently the buffering that has been sucking up our emissions of CO2 mops up those easily. It is relatively easy to see over the recent geological history in carbon isotope levels.
What we’re doing is having a sustained and increasing release of greenhouse gases. Consequently we’re effectively running a vast experiment on the earths buffering systems. If you’d actually read the NOAA data, they’re showing the the buffers are running out of buffer space.
So basically your analogy of looking at volcanic buffering is fundementally flawed because it is geologically rare to have a continuous stream of volcano’s going off in sequence and massively in paradel (?sp) for 50+ years.
Of course the whole CO2 debate is predicated on CO2 actually having an effect on temperature, when in fact there is evidence to suggest the latter precedes the former by as much as 300 years.
Yes correct. BUT where there is a normal gradual rise in CO2 levels, and typically when there is significant glaciation. What you have to remember is that far less then a third of the CO2 emmissions is showing in the atmosphere. The rest is being buffered.
However you’re arguing from a different circumstance. Occassional volcanic events don’t stress the buffering as much. The 300 year lag is most likely from the CO2 going into the cold current water at the poles and then getting released hundreds of years later. There are a number of other possibilities like calcium carbonates etc, but they all act as a sink with eventual release.
But you should (for the 3rd time) read the NOAA numbers. It is showing that buffering is accepting about half the CO2 as it did 10 years ago. Moreover the emmissions are still rising. What that means is that it it is likely to showing strongly in your lifetime if you’re younger than I am. I think that we’ll see significant effects within the next 30 years.
If greenhouse warming were presently occurring you would get more warming in the troposphere, because greenhouse gases trap heat from escaping the atmosphere in the troposphere.
Read Draco’s links. The people whose work you’re basing that claim on have a few wee problems with their methodology.
How about reading enough to make it worth while discussing it with you…
Championing those graphs that the polar bear was teaching you about does your credibility no good at all. “ooh, look, the sea ice went up last year after falling for ages, that’s a trend!”
“If greenhouse warming were presently occurring you would get more warming in the troposphere, because greenhouse gases trap heat from escaping the atmosphere in the troposphere. However, that is just not the case. The data collected from satellites and weather balloons show that the earth is in fact warmer than the atmosphere. This evidence damns the theory of greenhouse effect upon climate through CO2.”
That is completely retarded. Of course the earth is warmer than the atmosphere. Greenhouse gases don’t absorb infrared radiation, they reflect it. It doesn’t get “trapped it the troposphere”. Arguing that CO2 does not have a significant impact on global temperature isn’t “skepticism”, it’s “retardacism”. It is a proven fact, it’s not up for debate. The debate is over “how much” and “what caused it”.
As for your obvious lack of faith in models – I can only assume you’ve had very little experience with them. Models are, generally, not that good at predicting the very near future accurately. There are too many little difficult to model bits that mess things around. They can still be quite good in the long term.
Take flipping a coin. You could have a model of a fair coin, and it would only be 50% accurate in telling you whether the coin was going to land heads or tails. Flip the coin 1000 times though and you’ll find that your model is pretty damned good at telling you whether the number of heads will be between 480 and 520.
Good on you for reading around, but read around BOTH sides of the argument, don’t just look at the skeptics views.
It might interest you to know that in the IPCC’s reports they are required to consider ALL opposing submissions, and in those cases that they chose to ignore them they have to say why, and on what evidence. It’s not some bunch of global warming alarmist hacks.
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Also, since you keep on ridiculing the possibility that small concentrations can have big effects – look up the ozone hole causes and results. How many CFC’s do you think were up there?
Finally, and in closing, as I’ve said many times before: It doesn’t matter whether CO2 is causing global warming. CO2 intensive technologies are crap for thousands of other reasons anyway, so we should move to abandon them regardless. Do you have any idea how many of the proposed emissions reductions schemes have been shown to have a significant net economic benefit? Net, in this instance, means “economic benefit for most people, just not coal power companies”.
… and still no answer! Iprent, Rob, Matthew, Draco and now T-Rex — do none of you ‘experts’ know what percentage of the greenhouse gases can be attributed to mankind? Or is it that our contribution is so flipping small you’re all too embarrassed to admit to it?
T-Rex: “Arguing that CO2 does not have a significant impact on global temperature isn’t “skepticism’, it’s “retardacism’. It is a proven fact, it’s not up for debate.”
Is that right, Mr Rex? Then how do you explain the debate ensuing over the 1.5 million hits on Google for the search “CO2 does not cause global warming”?
As for short-term charting, you’re right — the period of industrialisation in modern history is indeed just a blip in the Earth’s lifespan. Let’s have a look at what eminent marine geologist and climatologist Professor Robert Carter has to say about that:
In this succinct lecture he demonstrates that over the last 3.5 million years, the last 400,000 years, the last 10,000 years, the last 2,000 years and the last 700 years the Earth has been cooling! The spike of the latest period of the current holocene period is, wait for it, NORMAL in both rate and change!! In fact the rate of change in the last century is actually relatively slow compared to the Ice Age when there was a 1 degree shift per decade!
In the other two parts he uses empirical science to torpedo some of the really big floaters in the warm-monger’s argument:
Part Three (This part is particularly good; at the end of it we see sun spot activity laid over the global temp – almost a perfect match. Coincidence? I don’t think so). Part Four (You’ll love this part: “NOAA’s National Climate Data Center is in the middle of a scandal. Their global observing network, the heart and soul of surface weather measurement, is a disaster. Urbanization has placed many sites in unsuitable locations — on hot black asphalt, next to trash burn barrels, beside heat exhaust vents, even attached to hot chimneys and above outdoor grills.” – and he has photos to prove it!)
Phew. Nothing like a good night sleep knowing the sky isn’t falling. 🙂
[P.S. I’ve seen Al Snore’s alarmist doco… have you guys bothered to watch the counter-argumentative docos? The Great Global Warming Swindle is one you should all watch. The latest version, which – unlike The Inconvenient Truth – has the integrity to have been re-released with its original inaccuracies corrected.]
G said:(This part is particularly good; at the end of it we see sun spot activity laid over the global temp – almost a perfect match. Coincidence? I don’t think so).
The film’s main contention is that the current increase in global temperatures is caused not by rising greenhouse gases, but by changes in the activity of the sun. It is built around the discovery in 1991 by the Danish atmospheric physicist Dr Eigil Friis-Christensen that recent temperature variations on Earth are in “strikingly good agreement” with the length of the cycle of sunspots.
Unfortunately, he found nothing of the kind. A paper published in the journal Eos in 2004 reveals that the “agreement” was the result of “incorrect handling of the physical data”. The real data for recent years show the opposite: that the length of the sunspot cycle has declined, while temperatures have risen. When this error was exposed, Friis-Christensen and his co-author published a new paper, purporting to produce similar results. But this too turned out to be an artefact of mistakes – in this case in their arithmetic.
G said:The Great Global Warming Swindle is one you should all watch.
The problem with The Great Global Warming Swindle, which caused a sensation when it was broadcast on Channel 4 last week, is that to make its case it relies not on future visionaries, but on people whose findings have already been proved wrong.
If they’ve removed all the inaccuracies then can’t possibly have released anything.
He is, ironically, adopting pretty much the same mentality as the “WTC1 & WTC2 were bought down by controlled demolition” crowd.
G, I’ll reply to you later if I am sufficiently drunk and accommodating. Probably I won’t bother, because I get really really bored of refuting the arguments of crap science.
Such as this one: “Is that right, Mr Rex? Then how do you explain the debate ensuing over the 1.5 million hits on Google for the search “CO2 does not cause global warming’?”
Yes, that’s right. And it’s SIR Mr Rex to you. I think it’s great that 1.5 million people are researching the issue, although I hope their research is a little more balanced than yours. However, research is not the same as belief (at least it shouldn’t be), and even if it was all it would prove is that 1.5million people can’t grasp basic science. CO2 IS a greenhouse gas – anyone who argues otherwise is wrong. It MAY not be resulting in abnormal and significant warming of our planet at PRESENT levels (though I’d love to know why the icecap is melting if not), but it’s sure as hell a greenhouse gas. If you don’t believe me, check out the weather on Venus. Or you think that’s just because it’s closer to the sun?
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Has anyone read any analysis of the stabilisation effect of the icecap? I mean the phase change from ice to water consumes enourmous energy – I’d expect that to stabilise the temperature.
Think about it G – where is all the energy that’s melting the ice coming from?
Natural cycle or not, it’ll still f*ck us if we don’t prepare for it. You think the ice age/desertification will care whether they were caused by people or not? Answer is robust system. Fossil fuel dependency is anything but robust.
1) Still no answer on the definitive percentage of AGW gases.
2) I’ve not said CO2 isn’t a greenhouse gas; I’m saying Man’s contribution to it is negligible to the point of insignificance, and it may be that CO2 isn’t even the key contributer to GW.
3) You said the debate on that subject was over when it is clearly not.
4) Your precious NOAA is riddled with crap science, not Carter’s charts — nobody here or in the science community is refuting their validity.
5) Given today is 9/11, your allusion to me being a WTC conspiracy theorist is not only mean spirited, it’s actually quite distasteful.
6) As Carter observed, once again the warm-mongers inevitably resort to attacking the man.
As least one of us isn’t losing any sleep over this. 🙂
“The Earth’s atmosphere is a layer of gases surrounding the planet Earth that is retained by the Earth’s gravity. It contains roughly (by molar content/volume) 78.08% nitrogen, 20.95% oxygen, 0.93% argon, 0.038% carbon dioxide, trace amounts of other gases, and a variable amount (average around 1%) of water vapor. This mixture of gases is commonly known as air. The atmosphere protects life on Earth by absorbing ultraviolet solar radiation and reducing temperature extremes between day and night.”
So, the % of AGW gases in the atmosphere is, approximately, “sod all”, but as I mentioned earlier the absolute concentration considered alone is basically irrelevant. Notice you’ve totally failed to address your arguments flaws in light of the Ozone issue btw.
The reason nobody is responding is not because they’re embarassed, it’s because it’s commonly available knowledge already exhaustively considered and they can’t be bothered. You’re not deciphering the rosetta stone here, you’re just applying crap arguments.
You said this: “Is that right, Mr Rex? Then how do you explain the debate ensuing over the 1.5 million hits on Google for the search “CO2 does not cause global warming’?”, a statement clearly trying to discredit assertions that CO2 causes global warming. The debate is NOT over, but only because people who don’t know what they’re talking about keep on debating it. If CO2 is a greenhouse gas then it causes global warming. You ADMIT it’s a greenhouse gas, therefore you’re admitting it causes global warming. So any reference to google searches along the lines of “CO2 does not cause global warming” is just, at the cost of repeating myself, retarded. Negligible – maybe – I haven’t got a model of the climate available so I can’t tell you, but the fact that some very well informed people who DO think it’s not negligible holds some significance.
My precious NOAA? I haven’t even referenced them yet – though interestingly your friend Carter did. And I’m not saying the data is invalid, I’m saying that it’s poorly applied in this context. Look at his sea level plot and use your BRAIN. Sea ice spiked for one year. That is not a trend. That is an outlier. Note the fact that THIS year it’s possibly going to hit a new lowest ever value.
Oh god it’s september 11 oh how terrible clearly my comments denigrating conspiracy theorists is actually an attack on the memory of the victims! Don’t get all Godwin on me you whiny little sap. How many 9-11 conspiracy theorists do you know who died in 9-11? Oh wait, the answer is none. Allow me to make this perfectly clear – people who think that the twin towers were bought down by controlled demolition are morons, and the fact that they waste their lives making videos about missiles being fired etc rather than doing something productive to improve the world (socieoeconomic imbalance being the ACTUAL cause of 9-11) is, itself, more of an affront to the memory of those who died than anything I could say.
The reason we end up attacking the man is that we get so BORED attacking “The Man”‘s stupid arguments. The good arguments I don’t mind, and there are several though they are, as I keep pointing out to you and you keep ignoring, irrelevant as we should reduce CO2 emissions anyway just because they’re associated with lousy backward processes.
Some of your arguments are good – like “causality has not been conclusively proven” etc – but mostly they’re extensively rebutted in the public domain. The impact of water vapour and associated feedback mechanisms, for example, are widely accepted as being poorly understood. The responsible course of action in those circumstances is, however, to do more research and err on the side of caution. YOU, however, appear to be advocating that we abandon the whole thing and burn some motherfu*kin’ COAL baby.
That may not be the case however. What DO you think we should be doing G?
I never lose sleep. I always know exactly where my sleep is.
Okay, so what is the actual percentage of anthropogenic greenhouse gases outside the 95% created by water vapor? … Still no answer on the definitive percentage of AGW gases
Don’t get your undies in a bunch G. 5.53% is one figure I’ve seen. Are you going to argue that that’s too small to make any difference? If so, then you’ve read none of the excellent material linked to above.
In the period since 1750:
– human activity has increased greenhouse gasses
– significant warming has occurred
– no natural process has occurred to account for the warming (the only relevant natural process is a slight increase in solar output, the effect of human activity is estimated to be 15 times greater).
Can’t you do the math from there?
Other possible explanations (like sunspots) have been considered and discarded by the significant majority of the scientific community (sunspots make the wrong predictions about which parts of the atmosphere will warm).
T-Rex has likened the denier literature to the Sept 11 conspiracies, I think it’s more like the smoking cancer link that the tobacco companies managed to deny for so long with their shonky science and willing shills. That’s the league that you’re playing in G.
But if you don’t want to believe all those boring old scientists, how about serious business people? Read the report by the Association of British Insurers, planning for how the industry should deal with the expected increasing costs from climate change effects:
The Earth’s climate is changing and will continue to change over this century.The 1990s were the warmest decade globally since records began, with the four warmest years all occurring since 1998. In 2003, Europe experienced its hottest summer for at least 500 years, with temperatures more than 2°C warmer than the average. In the UK, temperatures reached a record-breaking 38°C.Temperatures could increase by a further 6°C by the end of the century if there is no action to tackle climate change.
FINDINGS
Projected climate change poses a serious threat to America’s national security. The predicted effects of climate change over the coming decades include extreme weather events, drought, flooding, sea level rise, retreating glaciers, habitat shifts, and the increased spread of life-threatening diseases. These conditions have the potential to disrupt our way of life and to force changes in the way we keep ourselves safe and secure.
So how about the Pentagon G – “warm mongers”? Got it wrong have they?
“I think it’s more like the smoking cancer link that the tobacco companies managed to deny for so long with their shonky science and willing shills. That’s the league that you’re playing in G.”
That’s a much better example in terms of the industry mentality, although I think the poor science and selective use of evidence employed by the amateur deniers almost exactly parallels that of other conspiracy theorists. And I’ve still got a grudge against 9-11 conspiracy theorists.
There are levels of denial too. It IS hard to tell exactly what the degree of impact will be – I don’t mind people who say “we don’t know for sure”. The people who piss me off are the ones who go “Man is not, can not, and will never have an impact on the global climate”. Those are the same people who say “There are too many trees in the amazon basin for the lumber/farmin industry to have an impact (in fact I believe the same argument was applied to Kauri’s in NZ), too many fish in the sea for fisheries to have an impact, too much water in the world for DDT to have an impact” etc etc. They have been almost universally wrong so far, and they are almost universally pushing some alternate agenda.
Watch what you argue and how you argue it G, it’s the difference between being an intelligent skeptic displaying caution in the face of public sentiment and being a corporate tool.
G, this is from memory and may be entirely wrong, but I understand CO2 was below 200ppm in the pre-industrial revolution era. It’s now 350ppm and forecast to hit 550ppm by 2050.
We’re looking at a doubling, or more, in the volume of airborne CO2.
Interesting that you commented (relating to volcanic events) that earth is very resilient. That, G, is spot-on. The last time something like this happened, the dinosaurs were thoroughly wiped out, yet the earth was fine; it recovered no worries.
Now how is it you find that of comfort? I bet a T-rex (picking a dinosaur at random…or am I?) is more resilient than us wimpy homo sapiens.
T-rex: “And I’ve still got a grudge against 9-11 conspiracy theorists.”
You sure do! heh. I studied holocaust denial at one stage, and have noted that the style used is oft repeated (disclaimer: please note all, that this has nothing to do with the holocaust specifically. I’m simply talking about the methods used to discredit any idea; using said method does NOT equate one with being a holocaust denier in terms of how evil you are).
It is very simple – you discount one part of an idea you don’t like, and suddenly the whole concept must be wrong. A fascinating example was the “there were no Nazi gas chambers” concept. Someone studied old gas chambers and found two points – there weren’t the correct type of rubber seals on the doors, and the walls did not contain a remnant of the zyklon-b gas used.
Therefore, the Nazis were misunderstood, and the Evil Jews are taking us all for a ride with Holocaust(TM).
Such methodology is used to a remarkable degree – it’s not hard to imagine a scenario in which those two issues identified could be explained away – one must ask where the weight of evidence lies, even if specifics aren’t as expected.
Something to consider. I found that with 9-11 stuff. One or two facts don’t fit right, so it was a Vast Conspiracy. I just can’t see it. Same with climate change. Sure – the models aren’t perfect, but where’s the real eight of evidence?
You see, this one piece of genuine junk science says it all. Everyone was sucked in back then, all the way up to the heads of state, and now all those state-sponsored scientists are desperately holding on to their jobs by perpetuating the myth.
AGW is a T.H.E.O.R.Y… it hasn’t been proven ~ not here, not anywhere ~ and there’s a huge number of genuine scientists who are now rejecting it outright. If it was fact why don’t the IPCC just accept the call for an independent debate and get on with it? Answer: because denying is heresy, they have a vested interest in the warm-mongering, there’s a stack of contrary evidence that would throw doubt into the minds of too many people, and they need to have a consensus for the gravy train to keep on rolling.
I note that none of you has refuted Prof. Clarks charts that prove we’re in actually in cooling trend since way back.
The day climate models start hitting their marks, let me know. In the meantime relax… it’s all gonna be okay. 🙂
“You see, this one piece of genuine junk science says it all.”
No, it doesn’t. Give me a single example of a field of scientific endeavour where the answer was perfect first time round? Quantum physics is a great example Lynn.
Who the f*ck cares that it’s been warmer in the past? Like Matt says, there have been mass extinction events in the past. By your reasoning, if a giant asteroid was going to hit the earth we should worry, because asteroids have hit the earth in the past. If you accept that there is likely to be a global temperature rise of a couple of degrees then you have to accept ALLLL the drama that comes with it, no matter how many such rises there have been previously.
Global warming would not cause the “end of the world”. It just might make things pretty freaking difficult for those who have adapted to the status quo.
For now, G, I’m concluding that you’re actually some 16yo web-warrior who reads too many Michael Crichton books, so I can’t be bothered arguing the point – given most of your arguments are irrelevant. But whatever, you stick at it, I guess at least you’re doing SOME quasi-research, it’s probably better for you than playing grand theft auto all day.
“It will be a bit too late by then, I’m afraid, given that the same models generally say that if we act now, we’re only fairly screwed, not goneburger.”
Thing is, Matthew, if the models are inaccurate, they’re inaccurate. Why give them any credence? Pascal’s wager is no reason to introduce yet another tax.
“Quantum theory is just a THEORY.”
Ahhh, Iprent (or is it Lynn?), but unlike climate modeling, Quantum mechanics are reliable, otherwise they’d be entirely useless…
“Everything is a theory – NOTHING can be ‘proved’ unless you want to rely on faith.”
… and there it is: faith and AGW; the new religion for which skeptics are brandished as heretics.
“Who the f*ck cares that it’s been warmer in the past?”
You should care, T, because as soon as you get your head around the idea that it was warmer in the past – thousands of years before industrialisation – it’ll dawn on you that this is simply part of Earth’s natural cycle. Take another look at those charts. The long term trend is indicating a gradual cooling. If anything we should be pumping more greenhouse gas into the atmosphere.
“Thing is, Matthew, if the models are inaccurate, they’re inaccurate.”
Hey everybody, look! It’s a climate change denier with a black and white view of an issue! Come quick, bring your camera!
“Ahhh, Iprent (or is it Lynn?), but unlike climate modeling, Quantum mechanics are reliable, otherwise they’d be entirely useless “
Look, they don’t understand quantum mechanics either!! They’re only reliable on AVERAGE G, much like most… oh, what were we talking about a moment ago? Oh yeah, models.
“and there it is: faith and AGW; the new religion for which skeptics are brandished as heretics.” said the annoying Troll, deliberately misinterpreting what had just been suggested.
“You should care, T, because as soon as you get your head around the idea that it was warmer in the past – thousands of years before industrialisation – it’ll dawn on you that this is simply part of Earth’s natural cycle. Take another look at those charts. The long term trend is indicating a gradual cooling. If anything we should be pumping more greenhouse gas into the atmosphere.”
…Actually I think I’ll just leave that. Your reasoning is GOD. AWFUL. However it might interest you to know that one of the possible results of significant GHG emissions is another ice age. Though not in the “Day after tomorrow” sense. Not that that is remotely pointed to by any of your data.
Meteor strikes and supervolcanos are part of the earths natural cycle you gumby, it doesn’t mean we should aim to artifically recreate them.
Take another look at those charts. The long term trend is indicating a gradual cooling.
G you’re the biggest fool I’ve ever seen on this blog, and that is against some very stern competition. Congratulations.
You cling to these charts to claim that the climate is cooling when all other sources cited above say it is warming. You believe these charts compared to all other sources because you think they tell you what you want to believe. Well, you have a problem. The charts are based on data from the Hadley Center – the UK Met Office (see the bottom right of graph 1). So what do the Hadley Center have to say? Let’s start with an introduction on a climate science blog:
The top climate scientists at the UK’s Hadley Center for Climate Prediction get no respect. No matter how many times they try to explain that their data clearly shows the world is warming (see “Hadley Center to delayers: We’re warming, not cooling”), people, including those commenting on this very blog, keep insisting their data shows otherwise (see here).
The deniers/delayer-1000s cite recent UK Hadley Center data to promote their “climate is cooling’ disinformation. … It is only fair to ask what the Hadley Center thinks its data shows (much as we’ve heard NASA explain that its data shows unequivocal warming). Answer: they believe it unequivocally shows we are in a warming trend, including this decade.
Fact 1: Climate change is happening and humans are contributing to it
Fact 2: Temperatures are continuing to rise
Fact 3: The current climate change is not just part of a natural cycle
Fact 4: Recent warming cannot be explained by the Sun or natural factors alone
Fact 5: If we continue emitting greenhouse gases this warming will continue and delaying action will make the problem more difficult to fix
Fact 6: Climate models predict the main features of future climate
So there you go G, you say the Hadley Center data shows cooling, the Hadley Center (you know – professional meteorologists, the people who publish the data) say it shows warming.
Who should we believe G – you or the Hadley Center?
I just checked, and according to SCIENCE the average temperature of the universe 300,000 years after its formation was 3000 degrees kelvin. It is WAY colder than that on earth now! Look out! Spread the truth!
Gotta go, I haven’t twittered on myspace for like 8minutes and my livejournal is way out of date plzkthanks.
It always makes me laugh how the fossil fuel lobby is always pushing the line that “those damn paleoclimatologists are just trying to keep themselves in a job” and keeping a straight face.
Damn paleoclimatologists. Always looking out for number one they are. Unlike the fossil fuel industry, which is famously altruistic and is just after what’s best for humanity as a whole…
It always makes me laugh how the fossil fuel lobby is always pushing the line that “those damn paleoclimatologists are just trying to keep themselves in a job’
Oath. It’s an astoundingly paranoid worldview. There is a conspiracy of tens and hundreds of thousands, lasting decades. The conspiracy consists of scientists who set out to learn about the world, but are deliberately lying about what they have discovered in order to hold on their enormous government pay checks. Even though there are many private sector companies that would actually pay them more money to tell the truth, these scientists continue to lie because, ummm, they want gov’t grants to continue studying things they know are false. Or something.
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The Government is making short-sighted changes to the Resource Management Act (RMA) that will take away environmental protection in favour of short-term profits, Labour’s environment spokesperson Rachel Brooking said today. ...
Labour welcomes the release of the report into the North Island weather events and looks forward to working with the Government to ensure that New Zealand is as prepared as it can be for the next natural disaster. ...
The Labour Party has called for the New Zealand Government to recognise Palestine, as a material step towards progressing the two-State solution needed to achieve a lasting peace in the region. ...
Some of our country’s most important work, stopping the sexual exploitation of children and violent extremism could go along with staff on the frontline at ports and airports. ...
The Government’s Fast Track Approvals Bill will give projects such as new coal mines a ‘get out of jail free’ card to wreak havoc on the environment, Labour Leader Chris Hipkins said today. ...
The government's decision to reintroduce Three Strikes is a destructive and ineffective piece of law-making that will only exacerbate an inherently biased and racist criminal justice system, said Te Pāti Māori Justice Spokesperson, Tākuta Ferris, today. During the time Three Strikes was in place in Aotearoa, Māori and Pasifika received ...
Cuts to frontline hospital staff are not only a broken election promise, it shows the reckless tax cuts have well and truly hit the frontline of the health system, says Labour Health spokesperson Ayesha Verrall. ...
The Green Party has joined the call for public submissions on the fast-track legislation to be extended after the Ombudsman forced the Government to release the list of organisations invited to apply just hours before submissions close. ...
New Zealand’s good work at reducing climate emissions for three years in a row will be undone by the National government’s lack of ambition and scrapping programmes that were making a difference, Labour Party climate spokesperson Megan Woods said today. ...
More essential jobs could be on the chopping block, this time Ministry of Education staff on the school lunches team are set to find out whether they're in line to lose their jobs. ...
Te Pāti Māori is disgusted at the confirmation that hundreds are set to lose their jobs at Oranga Tamariki, and the disestablishment of the Treaty Response Unit. “This act of absolute carelessness and out of touch decision making is committing tamariki to state abuse.” Said Te Pāti Māori Oranga Tamariki ...
The Government is trying to bring in a law that will allow Ministers to cut corners and kill off native species, Labour environment spokesperson Rachel Brooking said. ...
Cancelling urgently needed new Cook Strait ferries and hiking the cost of public transport for many Kiwis so that National can announce the prospect of another tunnel for Wellington is not making good choices, Labour Transport Spokesperson Tangi Utikere said. ...
A laundry list of additional costs for Tāmaki Makarau Auckland shows the Minister for the city is not delivering for the people who live there, says Labour Auckland Issues spokesperson Shanan Halbert. ...
Te Pāti Māori co-leader Rawiri Waititi, and Mema Paremata mō Tāmaki-Makaurau, Takutai Tarsh Kemp, will travel to the Gold Coast to strengthen ties with Māori in Australia next week (15-21 April). The visit, in the lead-up to the 9th Australian National Kapa haka Festival, will be an opportunity for both ...
The Green Party has today launched a step-by-step guide to help New Zealanders make their voice heard on the Government’s democracy dodging and anti-environment fast track legislation. ...
The National Government’s proposed changes to the Residential Tenancies Act will mean tenants can be turfed from their homes by landlords with little notice, Labour housing spokesperson Kieran McAnulty said. ...
Green Party co-leader Marama Davidson is calling on all parties to support a common-sense change that’s great for the planet and great for consumers after her member’s bill was drawn from the ballot today. ...
A significant milestone has been reached in the fight to strike an anti-Pasifika and unfair law from the country’s books after Teanau Tuiono’s members’ bill passed its first reading. ...
New Zealand has today missed the opportunity to uphold the right to a clean, healthy, and sustainable environment, says James Shaw after his member’s bill was voted down in its first reading. ...
Today’s advice from the Climate Change Commission paints a sobering reality of the challenge we face in combating climate change, especially in light of recent Government policy announcements. ...
Minister for Disability Issues Penny Simmonds appears to have delayed a report back to Cabinet on the progress New Zealand is making against international obligations for disabled New Zealanders. ...
Hundreds of New Zealand families affected by Fetal Alcohol Spectrum Disorder (FASD) will benefit from a new Government focus on prevention and treatment, says Health Minister Dr Shane Reti. “We know FASD is a leading cause of preventable intellectual and neurodevelopmental disability in New Zealand,” Dr Reti says. “Every day, ...
Regional Development Minister Shane Jones today attended the official opening of Kaikohe’s new $14.7 million sports complex. “The completion of the Kaikohe Multi Sports Complex is a fantastic achievement for the Far North,” Mr Jones says. “This facility not only fulfils a long-held dream for local athletes, but also creates ...
Foreign Minister Winston Peters’ engagements in Türkiye this week underlined the importance of diplomacy to meet growing global challenges. “Returning to the Gallipoli Peninsula to represent New Zealand at Anzac commemorations was a sombre reminder of the critical importance of diplomacy for de-escalating conflicts and easing tensions,” Mr Peters ...
Ambassador Millar, Burgemeester, Vandepitte, Excellencies, military representatives, distinguished guests, ladies and gentlemen – good morning and welcome to this sacred Anzac Day dawn service. It is an honour to be here on behalf of the Government and people of New Zealand at Buttes New British Cemetery, Polygon Wood – a deeply ...
Distinguished guests - It is an honour to return once again to this site which, as the resting place for so many of our war-dead, has become a sacred place for generations of New Zealanders. Our presence here and at the other special spaces of Gallipoli is made ...
Mai ia tawhiti pamamao, te moana nui a Kiwa, kua tae whakaiti mai matou, ki to koutou papa whenua. No koutou te tapuwae, no matou te tapuwae, kua honoa pumautia. Ko nga toa kua hinga nei, o te Waipounamu, o te Ika a Maui, he okioki tahi me o ...
Paul Goldsmith will take on responsibility for the Media and Communications portfolio, while Louise Upston will pick up the Disability Issues portfolio, Prime Minister Christopher Luxon announced today. “Our Government is relentlessly focused on getting New Zealand back on track. As issues change in prominence, I plan to adjust Ministerial ...
Recreational catch limits will be reduced in areas of Fiordland and the Chatham Islands to help keep those fisheries healthy and sustainable, Oceans and Fisheries Minister Shane Jones says. The lower recreational daily catch limits for a range of finfish and shellfish species caught in the Fiordland Marine Area and ...
Energy Minister Simeon Brown has welcomed an important milestone in New Zealand’s hydrogen future, with the opening of the country’s first network of hydrogen refuelling stations in Wiri. “I want to congratulate the team at Hiringa Energy and its partners K one W one (K1W1), Mitsui & Co New Zealand ...
The coalition Government is delivering on its commitment to improve resource management laws and give greater certainty to consent applicants, with a Bill to amend the Resource Management Act (RMA) expected to be introduced to Parliament next month. RMA Reform Minister Chris Bishop has today outlined the first RMA Amendment ...
Overseas models for regulating the oil and gas sector, including their decommissioning regimes, are being carefully scrutinised as a potential template for New Zealand’s own sector, Resources Minister Shane Jones says. The Coalition Government is focused on rebuilding investor confidence in New Zealand’s energy sector as it looks to strengthen ...
Emergency Management and Recovery Minister Mark Mitchell has today released the Report of the Government Inquiry into the response to the North Island Severe Weather Events. “The report shows that New Zealand’s emergency management system is not fit-for-purpose and there are some significant gaps we need to address,” Mr Mitchell ...
Justice Minister Paul Goldsmith is today travelling to Europe where he’ll update the United Nations Human Rights Council on the Government’s work to restore law and order. “Attending the Universal Periodic Review in Geneva provides us with an opportunity to present New Zealand’s human rights progress, priorities, and challenges, while ...
Associate Agriculture Minister, Mark Patterson, formally reopened the world’s largest wool processing facility today in Awatoto, Napier, following a $50 million rebuild and refurbishment project. “The reopening of this facility will significantly lift the economic opportunities available to New Zealand’s wool sector, which already accounts for 20 per cent of ...
Hon Andrew Bayly, Minister for Small Business and Manufacturing At the Southland Otago Regional Engineering Collective (SOREC) Summit, 18 April, Dunedin Ngā mihi nui, Ko Andrew Bayly aho, Ko Whanganui aho Good Afternoon and thank you for inviting me to open your summit today. I am delighted ...
The Government is delivering on its commitment to bring back the Three Strikes legislation, Associate Justice Minister Nicole McKee announced today. “Our Government is committed to restoring law and order and enforcing appropriate consequences on criminals. We are making it clear that repeat serious violent or sexual offending is not ...
Foreign Minister Winston Peters has today announced four new diplomatic appointments for New Zealand’s overseas missions. “Our diplomats have a vital role in maintaining and protecting New Zealand’s interests around the world,” Mr Peters says. “I am pleased to announce the appointment of these senior diplomats from the ...
New Zealand is contributing NZ$7 million to support communities affected by severe food insecurity and other urgent humanitarian needs in Ethiopia and Somalia, Foreign Minister Rt Hon Winston Peters announced today. “Over 21 million people are in need of humanitarian assistance across Ethiopia, with a further 6.9 million people ...
Minister for Arts, Culture and Heritage Paul Goldsmith is congratulating Mataaho Collective for winning the Golden Lion for best participant in the main exhibition at the Venice Biennale. "Congratulations to the Mataaho Collective for winning one of the world's most prestigious art prizes at the Venice Biennale. “It is good ...
The Government is reforming financial services to improve access to home loans and other lending, and strengthen customer protections, Commerce and Consumer Affairs Minister Andrew Bayly and Housing Minister Chris Bishop announced today. “Our coalition Government is committed to rebuilding the economy and making life simpler by cutting red tape. We are ...
“China remains a strong commercial opportunity for Kiwi exporters as Chinese businesses and consumers continue to value our high-quality safe produce,” Trade and Agriculture Minister Todd McClay says. Mr McClay has returned to New Zealand following visits to Beijing, Harbin and Shanghai where he met ministers, governors and mayors and engaged in trade and agricultural events with the New ...
Prime Minister Christopher Luxon has completed a successful trip to Singapore, Thailand and the Philippines, deepening relationships and capitalising on opportunities. Mr Luxon was accompanied by a business delegation and says the choice of countries represents the priority the New Zealand Government places on South East Asia, and our relationships in ...
New Zealand is demonstrating its commitment to reducing global greenhouse emissions, and supporting clean energy transition in South East Asia, through a contribution of NZ$41 million (US$25 million) in climate finance to the Asian Development Bank (ADB)-led Energy Transition Mechanism (ETM). Prime Minister Christopher Luxon and Climate Change Minister Simon Watts announced ...
The Government is today releasing a list of organisations who received letters about the Fast-track applications process, says RMA Reform Minister Chris Bishop. “Recently Ministers and agencies have received a series of OIA requests for a list of organisations to whom I wrote with information on applying to have a ...
Attorney-General Judith Collins today announced the appointment of Wellington Barrister David Jonathan Boldt as a Judge of the High Court, and the Honourable Justice Matthew Palmer as a Judge of the Court of Appeal. Justice Boldt graduated with an LLB from Victoria University of Wellington in 1990, and also holds ...
Education Minister Erica Stanford will lead the New Zealand delegation at the 2024 International Summit on the Teaching Profession (ISTP) held in Singapore. The delegation includes representatives from the Post Primary Teachers’ Association (PPTA) Te Wehengarua and the New Zealand Educational Institute (NZEI) Te Riu Roa. The summit is co-hosted ...
A stopbank upgrade project in Tairawhiti partly funded by the Government has increased flood resilience for around 7000ha of residential and horticultural land so far, Regional Development Minister Shane Jones says. Mr Jones today attended a dawn service in Gisborne to mark the end of the first stage of the ...
Foreign Affairs Minister Winston Peters will represent the Government at Anzac Day commemorations on the Gallipoli Peninsula next week and engage with senior representatives of the Turkish government in Istanbul. “The Gallipoli campaign is a defining event in our history. It will be a privilege to share the occasion ...
Science, Innovation and Technology and Defence Minister Judith Collins will next week attend the OECD Science and Technology Ministerial conference in Paris and Anzac Day commemorations in Belgium. “Science, innovation and technology have a major role to play in rebuilding our economy and achieving better health, environmental and social outcomes ...
Prime Minister Christopher Luxon held a bilateral meeting today with the President of the Philippines, Ferdinand Marcos Jr. The Prime Minister was accompanied by MP Paulo Garcia, the first Filipino to be elected to a legislature outside the Philippines. During today’s meeting, Prime Minister Luxon and President Marcos Jr discussed opportunities to ...
The Government has announced that $20 million in funding will be made available to Westport to fund much needed flood protection around the town. This measure will significantly improve the resilience of the community, says Local Government Minister Simeon Brown. “The Westport community has already been allocated almost $3 million ...
The Government is proud to support the first ever Repco Supercars Championship event in Taupō as up to 70,000 motorsport fans attend the Taupō International Motorsport Park this weekend, says Economic Development Minister Melissa Lee. “Anticipation for the ITM Taupō Super400 is huge, with tickets and accommodation selling out weeks ...
Local Government Minister Simeon Brown has announced an increase to the Rates Rebate Scheme, putting money back into the pockets of low-income homeowners. “The coalition Government is committed to bringing down the cost of living for New Zealanders. That includes targeted support for those Kiwis who are doing things tough, such ...
The Coalition Government is investing in a project to boost survival rates of New Zealand mussels and grow the industry, Oceans and Fisheries Minister Shane Jones has announced. “This project seeks to increase the resilience of our mussels and significantly boost the sector’s productivity,” Mr Jones says. “The project - ...
Benefit figures released today underscore the importance of the Government’s plan to rebuild the economy and have 50,000 fewer people on Jobseeker Support, Social Development and Employment Minister Louise Upston says. “Benefit numbers are still significantly higher than when National was last in government, when there was about 70,000 fewer ...
The Government’s commitment to doubling New Zealand’s renewable energy capacity is backed by new data showing that clean energy has helped the country reach its lowest annual gross emissions since 1999, Climate Change Minister Simon Watts says. New Zealand’s latest Greenhouse Gas Inventory (1990-2022) published today, shows gross emissions fell ...
The Government is bringing the earthquake-prone building review forward, with work to start immediately, and extending the deadline for remediations by four years, Building and Construction Minister Chris Penk says. “Our Government is focused on rebuilding the economy. A key part of our plan is to cut red tape that ...
Prime Minister Christopher Luxon and his Thai counterpart, Prime Minister Srettha Thavisin, have today agreed that New Zealand and the Kingdom of Thailand will upgrade the bilateral relationship to a Strategic Partnership by 2026. “New Zealand and Thailand have a lot to offer each other. We have a strong mutual desire to build ...
RMA Reform Minister Chris Bishop and Transport Minister Simeon Brown have today announced the Coalition Government’s intention to extend port coastal permits for a further 20 years, providing port operators with certainty to continue their operations. “The introduction of the Resource Management Act in 1991 required ports to obtain coastal ...
Today’s announcement that inflation is down to 4 per cent is encouraging news for Kiwis, but there is more work to be done - underlining the importance of the Government’s plan to get the economy back on track, acting Finance Minister Chris Bishop says. “Inflation is now at 4 per ...
Analysis by Dr Bryce Edwards, Democracy Project (https://democracyproject.nz)New Zealand Government’s Fast Track legislation. Many criticisms are being made of the Government’s Fast Track Approvals Bill, including by this writer. But as with everything in politics, every story has two sides, and both deserve attention. It’s important to understand what the Government ...
Tara Ward talks to presenter Naomi Toilalo about the new TV show that turns food waste into a three course feast. Naomi Toilalo is standing in the warehouse at Good Neighbour Tauranga, helping unpack the two-and-a-half tonnes of rejected food that will arrive at the community support hub that day. ...
Scout is our latest Dog of the Month. This feature was offered as a reward during our What’s Eating Aotearoa PledgeMe campaign. Thank you to Scout’s human, Avril, for her support. Dog name: Scout (named after the little girl in To Kill a Mockingbird – she inherited the independent spirit ...
Megan Alatini takes us through her life in TV, including ‘terrible’ daytime TV, the class of Carol Hirschfeld and her most embarrassing TrueBliss moment. When she responded to a vague newspaper ad asking “do you have what it takes to be a popstar?” 25 years ago, Megan Alatini never guessed ...
A new exhibition in Wellington showcases the faces behind your local goods and services. Back in 1977, when I was a fine arts student at the University of Canterbury, I took a series of photographs of Christchurch shopkeepers. The photos were for a calendar – a project for my end ...
Toomaj and his resistance to tyranny through his songs have become an icon for the youth of Iran, so his sentence has hit the nation hard. Toomaj Salehi is not the first artist to pay the price for standing with the people. ...
My cousin Dylan and I spotted these big eels under the bridge that summer. We watched them lounging under the dark weed, facing into the flow of water, their mouths frozen open. Dylan and I couldn’t stop thinking about those eels. The night we went down to the creek, we ...
Newsroom, home of satire. My long-running weekly satirical series The Secret Diary has moved to Newsroom and will appear every Saturday, with Victor Billot’s wildly popular satirical Odes continuing to appear every Sunday. Diaries, Odes – while serious political columnists toil at meaningful opinions and stroke their chins to an ...
Tara Ward unravels the many nuanced layers of a cartoon about talking dogs.This is an excerpt from our weekly pop culture newsletter Rec Room. Sign up here. It’s not often an episode of a children’s cartoon has adults sobbing into their sleeves, but that’s exactly what happened this week when ...
Working as a doctor in developing countries to help communities achieve better health outcomes is nothing short of a life goal for Jessica Tater. The University of Otago medical student has her sights firmly set on joining the international humanitarian organisation Doctors Without Borders/Médecins Sans Frontières (MSF) when she qualifies ...
There’s an island in the far reaches of Auckland’s territory, sitting off the tip of the Coromandel Peninsula, 30 minutes by air from the city or four hours on the slow boat. Aotea Great Barrier is off-grid, it has a population of fewer than a thousand people … and most ...
Asia Pacific Report An Australian author and advocate, Jim Aubrey, today led a national symbolic one minute’s silence to mark the “blood debt” owed to Papuan allies during the Second World War indigenous resistance against the invading Japanese forces. “A promise to most people is a promise,” Aubrey said in ...
Asia Pacific Report The Freedom Flotilla is ready to sail to Gaza, reports Kia Ora Gaza. All the required paperwork has been submitted to the port authority, and the cargo has been loaded and prepared for the humanitarian trip to the besieged enclave. However, organisers received word of an “administrative ...
Pacific Media Watch Palestine solidarity protesters today demonstrated at the Auckland headquarters of Television New Zealand, accusing the country’s major TV network of broadcasting “propaganda” backing Israel’s genocidal war on Gaza. About 50 protesters targeted the main entrance to the TVNZ building near Sky Tower and also picketed a side ...
Opinion by Lynley Hood. Forty years on from my 1985 Fulbright Grant, my disquiet over the war in Gaza evoked some troubling questions. The answer to my first question – What is the primary purpose of the Fulbright Programme? – was on the Fulbright NZ website. It says: US Senator, ...
The ministers responsible for green-lighting major projects need to be open about potential conflicts of interest, says Transparency International. ...
Source: The Conversation (Au and NZ) – By Anastasia Powell, Professor, Family and Sexual Violence, RMIT University It has been a particularly distressing start to the year. There is little that can ease the current grief of individuals, families and communities who have needlessly lost a loved one to men’s ...
Source: The Conversation (Au and NZ) – By Gregory Moore, Senior Research Associate, School of Ecosystem and Forest Sciences, The University of Melbourne Lichen, the first described example of symbiosis.AdeJ Artventure/Shutterstock Once known only to those studying biology, the word symbiosis is now widely used. Symbiosis is the intimate ...
Source: The Conversation (Au and NZ) – By Kim Hemsley, Head, Childhood Dementia Research Group, Flinders Health and Medical Research Institute, College of Medicine and Public Health, Flinders University Olena Ivanova/Shutterstock “Childhood” and “dementia” are two words we wish we didn’t have to use together. But sadly, around 1,400 ...
Source: The Conversation (Au and NZ) – By Peter Whiteford, Professor, Crawford School of Public Policy, Australian National University The government’s Economic Inclusion Advisory Committee has just published its second report. It was set up by Treasurer Jim Chalmers and Minister for Social Services Amanda Rishworth in 2022 to provide: ...
Source: The Conversation (Au and NZ) – By Adrian Beaumont, Election Analyst (Psephologist) at The Conversation; and Honorary Associate, School of Mathematics and Statistics, The University of Melbourne The Queensland state election will be held in October. A YouGov poll for The Courier Mail, conducted April 9–17 from a sample ...
Source: The Conversation (Au and NZ) – By Amin Naeni, PhD candidate at Alfred Deakin Institute for Citizenship and Globalisation, Deakin University There’s been much talk in recent months about what a possible second Donald Trump presidency in the United States could mean for Europe, Russia’s war in Ukraine, the ...
A brief round-up of submissions on the controversial proposed law. This is an excerpt from our weekly environmental newsletter Future Proof. Sign up here. Last week, submissions on the controversial Fast-track Approvals Bill closed just hours after the government released a list of stakeholder organisations who were sent letters advising how they could ...
A poem from Robin Peace’s new collection Detritus of Empire: feather / grass / rock. Cereal giving I see a woman’s hands, see her curious hands break a stalk as she walks through the tall prairie, the savannah, the steppe, wherever it was. See her idly bite the grass that ...
The only published and available best-selling indie book chart in New Zealand is the top 10 sales list recorded every week at Unity Books’ stores in High St, Auckland, and Willis St, Wellington.AUCKLAND1 Hemingway’s Goblet by Dermot Ross (Mary Egan Publishing, $38)A handsomely produced (debossed cover, lovely ...
The Commissioner's decision validates the longstanding efforts of the local community and ensures that Awataha Marae will be managed to serve the needs of the local community, particularly for hosting tangihanga. ...
Source: The Conversation (Au and NZ) – By Tristan Salles, Associate professor, University of Sydney Examples of Australian landscapes.Unsplash Seventy thousand years ago, the sea level was much lower than today. Australia, along with New Guinea and Tasmania, formed a connected landmass known as Sahul. Around this time – ...
Source: The Conversation (Au and NZ) – By Felicity Castagna, Lecturer, Creative Writing, Western Sydney University Day Day Market, ParramattaPhoto: Garry Trinh I live on the edge of Parramatta, Australia’s fastest-growing city, on the kind of old-fashioned suburban street that has 1950s fibros constructed in the post-war housing boom, ...
Source: The Conversation (Au and NZ) – By Michael Ryan, Teaching Fellow in Economics, University of Waikato GettyImagesfatido/Getty Images There is an ongoing global debate over whether the high inflation seen in the aftermath of the COVID-19 pandemic can be lowered without a recession. New Zealand is not ...
The ‘Wicked Game’ heartthrob is in his late 60s now. That didn’t stop him putting on a lively, goofy and very sparkly show. Apart from ‘Wicked Game’, which graces a sultry playlist of mine simply called 💋, my last sustained Chris Isaak listening session took place when I was about ...
Analysis - Two ministers were stripped of portfolios in a warning to Cabinet, drama broke out at the Waitangi Tribunal, and the gang patch ban bill ran into opposition. ...
Tara Ward makes an impassioned plea for some vital pop culture merch. In April 1999, I became obsessed with a new reality television show called Popstars. Every Tuesday night, five strangers transformed into music royalty before my very eyes as Joe, Keri, Carly, Erika and Megan were chosen to form ...
PNG Post-Courier In the early hours of ANZAC Day, aerial photographs captured an impressive gathering of Australians and Papua New Guineans at Isurava in the Northern (Oro) Province. The solemn dawn service yesterday was held at a site steeped in history, where some of the fiercest battles of World War ...
The PSA is shocked that Oranga Tamariki has used the cost cutting drive to downgrade its commitment to Te Ao Māori and remove many specialist Māori roles. ...
Source: The Conversation (Au and NZ) – By Ian Kemish, Adjunct Professor, School of Historical and Philosophical Inquiry, The University of Queensland There can be no more powerful symbol of the relationship between Australia and Papua New Guinea than the prime ministers of these neighbouring countries walking together on the ...
Source: The Conversation (Au and NZ) – By Sharon Robinson, Distinguished Professor and Deputy Director of ARC Securing Antarctica’s Environmental Future (SAEF), University of Wollongong, University of Wollongong Andrew Netherwood Over the last 25 years, the ozone hole which forming over Antarctica each spring has started to shrink. ...
Source: The Conversation (Au and NZ) – By Viktoria Kahui, Senior Lecturer in Environmental Economics, University of Otago Getty Images/Amy Toensing Biodiversity is declining at rates unprecedented in human history. This suggests the ways we currently use to manage our natural environment are failing. One emerging concept focuses on ...
Source: The Conversation (Au and NZ) – By Timothy Colin Bednall, Associate Professor in Management, Swinburne University of Technology marvent/Shutterstock Finding the best person to fill a position can be tough, from drafting a job ad to producing a shortlist of top interview candidates. Employers typically consider information from ...
Wondering where to host your next BYO? Whether its a small gathering or a massive party, we’ve got some recommendations. I was first introduced to the concept of BYOs at Dunedin’s India Gardens, a legendary but sadly defunct establishment, which purveyed enormous quantities of mango chicken to Aotearoa’s drunkest future ...
Source: The Conversation (Au and NZ) – By Julien Cooper, Honorary Lecturer, Department of History and Archaeology, Macquarie University Julien Cooper The hyper-arid desert of Eastern Sudan, the Atbai Desert, seems like an unlikely place to find evidence of ancient cattle herders. But in this dry environment, my new ...
The sector says it’s hopeful her replacement Paul Goldsmith will be able to throw it a lifeline, after six months with a minister deemed missing in action, writes Catherine McGregor in this excerpt from The Bulletin, The Spinoff’s morning news round-up. To receive The Bulletin in full each weekday, sign ...
The government can't just rely on axing public sector jobs and has to do more to cut spending, says the chief economist at a free market think tank. ...
Rock The Vote NZ, known for its advocacy for minor party unity and its role within the Freedoms NZ Coalition during the 2023 General Election, celebrates this merger as a strategic enhancement of its operational strength and outreach. ...
Nearly everyone has experienced the frustration of something you use breaking and being difficult or expensive to fix. Proposed legislation could change that. It’s been raining on and off all Sunday afternoon but people are lining up outside a building in a corner of Gribblehirst Park in Sandringham, Auckland. In ...
What does a forever relationship look like when you don’t believe in marriage? And how do you celebrate it? This essay is part of our Sunday Essay series, made possible thanks to the support of Creative New Zealand.I’m going to do it, right now. I’m going to say ...
The Prime Minister has committed to resuming direct flights to Thailand. But it’s not a promise he will be able to deliver on anytime soon. The post Prime Minister jumps the gun in Thailand appeared first on Newsroom. ...
It’s not that long ago Eliza McCartney was seriously wondering if the Paris Olympics would be her pole vaulting swansong. After years of being hounded by injury after injury, the Rio Olympics bronze medallist was still confident she would compete at her second Olympics in Paris in July, unless something ...
FICTION 1 Take Two by Danielle Hawkins (Allen & Unwin, $36.99) There’s commercial fiction, like this book, and then there’s quality fiction, quality writers, quality literature; the forthcoming Auckland Writers Festival is full of quality, and ReadingRoom has two tickets to give away to the following events: Paul Lynch (Dublin ...
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You can’t have missed the Gallipoli story as the movies, documentaries, essays and books capture what it was like for New Zealand troops in their eight-month campaign on the Peninsula. But this Anzac Day the Auckland War Memorial Museum has published a book that sheds light on a little-known aspect of the ...
Source: The Conversation (Au and NZ) – By Michelle Grattan, Professorial Fellow, University of Canberra In the free-for-all between the Australian government and Big Tech boss Elon Musk this week, the government had to be on a winner. Most people would have little sympathy with Musk’s vociferous opposition to ...
Asia Pacific Report Chief Mandla Mandela, a member of the National Assembly of South Africa and Nelson Mandela’s grandson, has joined the Freedom Flotilla in istanbul as the ships prepare to sail for Gaza, reports Kia Ora Gaza. Mandela is also the ambassador for the Global Campaign to Return to ...
Pacific Media Watch Journalists who report on environmental issues are encountering growing difficulties in many parts of the world, reports Reporters Without Borders. According to the tally kept by RSF, 200 journalists have been subjected to threats and physical violence, including murder, in the past 10 years because they were ...
Analysis by Dr Bryce Edwards, Democracy Project (https://democracyproject.nz)Political scientist, Dr Bryce Edwards. Prime Minister Christopher Luxon has surprised everyone with his ruthlessness in sacking two of his ministers from their crucial portfolios. Removing ministers for poor performance after only five months in the job just doesn’t normally happen in ...
There really are some talented people out there. great vid. someone better email it to Tracy Watkins et al, otherwise they won’t see it… this interweb thing is beyond some of them.
Herald Sun
Evidence doesn’t bare out alarmist claims of global warming
THESE are the seven graphs that should make the Rudd Government feel sick.
http://www.news.com.au/heraldsun/files/080718%20oped%20bolt%20global%20c…
These are the seven graphs that should make you ask: What? Has global warming now stopped?
Look for yourself. They show that the world hasn’t warmed for a decade, and has even cooled for several years.
Sea ice now isn’t melting, but spreading. The seas have not just stopped rising, but started to fall.
Nor is the weather getting wilder. Cyclones, as well as tornadoes and hurricanes, aren’t increasing and the rain in Australia hasn’t stopped falling.
What’s more, the slight warming we saw over the century until 1998 still makes the world no hotter today than it was 1000 years ago.
In fact, it’s even a bit cooler. So, dude, where’s my global warming?
And so much for a consensus on the subject:
http://network.nationalpost.com/np/blogs/fpcomment/archive/2008/05/17/32-000-deniers.aspx
the nats will never respond to environmental issues because they are the party of the short term. maximising profits and to hell with anything else. I want my home in the south of france, a pied a terre in London, matching his and hers bentleys and enough money in th ebank to go and terrify the bank manager by threatening to move it elsewhere. anything else is a figment of fevered imagination…now where did I put my chainsaw?
G,
what a stupid comment that you posted.
Firstly, your link to the sun doesn’t work.
Secondly, your story about scientists saying that global warming doesn’t exist was done back in 1992.
It is well established now global warming does exist, it is a treat, and we do need to act.
There is no point in me referencing this point, as there is so much proof out there.
If you are going to make a point make sure your references a) work and b) arent 16 years old
because 16 years ago most of New Zealand thought that the markets would sort us out, and they were wrong.
It’s actually possible to argue that National has come a long way on climate change. It was only three years ago that party leader John Key labelled Kyoto a hoax and called the whole idea of climate change into question. “… The impact of the Kyoto Protocol, even if one believes in global warming—and I am somewhat suspicious of it—is that we will see billions and billions of dollars poured into fixing something that we are not even sure is a problem. ” (2005). (Not sure it’s a problem? Christ, what was he waiting for zero summer ice in the Arctic; longer droughts; another hottest year on record; another wiped out species?) The leadership has since cottoned on to the fact that New Zealanders will no longer tolerate this stance. However, the party’s environment and energy policies are a major step backward. They suggest National is living in an alternate reality in which there’s no such thing as climate change. The policies fail to acknowledge that climate change even exists, let alone recognise it for the crisis it is. Not that we would have expected much more from “sexy coal’ Brownlee (http://brownlee.co.nz/index.php?/archives/41-Video-Newsletter-5.html_). If Gerry thinks coal is sexy, I dread to think how he behaves around Huntly, or Solid Energy for that matter. On that note, last year Greenpeace also found some heads in sand: http://weblog.greenpeace.org.nz/climate-change/day-dreaming-heads-in-the-sand/#img
The link was working before. Try it again…
http://www.news.com.au/heraldsun/files/080718%20oped%20bolt%20global%20cooling.pdf
… from this article:
http://www.news.com.au/heraldsun/story/0,,24036602-25717,00.html
The report that 31,000 scientists (and counting) signed a petition rejecting anthropological GW is a fact, YL. Is this one recent enough for for you?:
http://www.reuters.com/article/pressRelease/idUS186909+02-Jun-2008+PRN20080602
As I said, there is NO consensus. The world isn’t even heating up anymore. The world is NOT going to end and you Warm-mongers should stop scaring the children.
Ahh G, haven’t seen you about since cynic gave you such an awful thumping. Glad to see you survived after all.
Now, some of the graphs in the articles you cite are irrelevant, and some of them are too short to show the trends. You need to read the basics, where such arguments are refuted:
http://environment.newscientist.com/channel/earth/climate-change/mg19426041.100
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/in_depth/629/629/7074601.stm
Re ice and melting, Arctic ice has retreated so much that new shipping lanes have opened up, and there are looming international debates over newly accessible mineral, oil and fishing rights:
http://www.nytimes.com/2005/10/10/science/10arctic.html
http://www.worldviewofglobalwarming.org/pages/arctic.html
As well as Arctic (and Antarctic) ice melt, glaciers (one of the most sensitive indicators of global warming) are receding world wide – see dramatic images here:
http://www.worldviewofglobalwarming.org/pages/glaciers.html
Yes, cause and effect are difficult to prove conclusively, but the overwhelming body of scientific evidence is now agreed by the overwhelming majority of scientists:
http://topics.nytimes.com/top/news/science/topics/globalwarming/index.html?inline=nyt-classifier
And as for your petitions of scientists alleged to have signed petitions, well sadly those who deny global warming have been known to fabricate evidence before:
http://www.nzherald.co.nz/section/1/story.cfm?c_id=1&objectid=10508754
Governments all over the world (and many individual states in America) are taking action to combat climate change. Either they are all fools G, or you are.
Cynic the laughing Hyena? Ha! He’s hardly a thumper and awfully unintelligent.
Now, back to your warm-mongering.
Fabricating evidence? How about the 35 errors in The Inconvenient Truth:
http://scienceandpublicpolicy.org/monckton/goreerrors.html
This, of course, includes the very inconvenient truth that the DVD is still being released with its cornerstone ‘fact’, the Hockey Stick, which the IPCC has conceded is bent and subsequently dropped from their reports.
And now the founder of the Weather Channel is gathering 30,000 scientists to sue Al Gore to finally precipitate a debate on the subject. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FfHW7KR33IQ
But singularly the biggest nail in the warmist’s hoax is the fact that all their ‘bias in/bias out’ computer models are failing one-by-one to prove accurate as the Earth inevitably contradicts their predictions:
http://planetgore.nationalreview.com/post/?q=MTYwMjRiZjJhMmUxYWE2MmQ0NDZhOGM0M2Q3ZWUzMmE
Have you noticed the Earth has cooled over the last few years with record lows recorded worldwide? Remember the silly bitches who made a trek to the North Pole to raise warming awareness only to be pulled out in a rescue mission and have most of their digits amputated from frostbite?
Seriously, Rob, you’re all starting to look foolish. 🙂
[G. This is a site for intelligent debate. Climate change denialism doesn’t fit meet that criterion, it hasn’t done so for the last 20 years at least. If you want to make silly arguments, go to Kiwiblog, you’ll have plenty of company. SP]
[lprent: If you’re going to attempt to argue, then at least learn something about the topic. I’m tired of the fatuous fools like you who seem to think that the earth’s hydrosphere and atmosphere operate like a classic black-body. If you don’t know what I’lm talking about then I suggest you try some elementary physics. You should also have a look at the current sizes of the artic sea ice during summer compared to historical values, and the increase in speed of the west antartic (?sp) glaciers. Then contemplate what an increasing flow of cold water due to melting does to the temperate zones where the currents flow to.
In the meantime don’t bother with fatuous arguments and links to publicity stunts.
I think that there should be more compulsary science – and people aren’t allowed to leave school until they’re passed some level of competence. ]
This site wants to shut down debate more like.
There is a growing stack of evidence to the contrary: starting with the fact that man-made CO2 contributes a gnat-sized 0.0054% of greenhouse gases (oh yeah, that’ll be the tipping point *phht*), the fact that CO2 levels lag temps by 200 years, the fact that the IPCC concedes it can’t explain why there was a spike in temps during the first 50 years of the 20th century, the fact that Earth’s temp tracks Sun Spot activity (who woulda thought, eh ~ it’s the Sun that controls our warming!), the fact that global temps have plateaued since 1998 despite CO2 continuing its climb, and the fact that more than 30,000 scientists now contradict anthropological global warming altogether… but carry on with your consensus cartoon if you wish. It’s your blog; it’s entirely your prerogative.
Just don’t tell us you’re looking for any debate because that’s a lie:
SP: “This is a site for intelligent debate. Climate change denialism doesn’t fit meet that criterion…”
What happened to the edit function? I can’t correct my italics….
Remember the silly bitches who made a trek to the North Pole
Aaaand G jumps the shark. “Silly bitches” eh G – classy. Wrong blog you misogynist git.
G: You are full of crap and incredibly ill informed.
Read http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Climate_change for the idiots guide to climate change.
Some brief points on your evident lack of education.
If you were correct about insolation effects, then the 11 year sunspot cycle would manifest in temps as a direct ratio of insolation energies. It doesn’t because those effects are buffered, largely by water and atmosphere.
There is an influence from solar and that will affect gross temps – but it is a long cycle. eg the long cycle warming from the 13th (eg greenland settlement) to 17th century (when the thames froze) to the warm period at the start of the 20th. Although I’d tend to ascribe a high proportion of the latter spike to CO2 and other gases generated from some of the large volcano’s in the late 19th century.
We are definitely on the peak (or just past it) of one of those cycles, but it is insufficent to explain the temp effects measured since geophysical year in 1957.
BTW: Before you raise that press driven fear of an iceage in the 1970’s, I’d point out that was a local effect in the major industrialised areas due to dust. It did not manifest in readings worldwide. Boy, I get tired of idiots raising those press reports.
The basic fact is that CO2 levels have risen dramatically. While it has a lower effect as a greenhouse gas than other gases, it is far an away the largest by volume which makes up for its limited entropic effect.
This article will give you the link to the current NOAA figures on CO2.
That probably means that the buffering action for CO2 (mainly in the oceans from the recent acidity measurements) is starting to get less effective. That is bad news, and when the IPCC finally factors that in then you can expect their estimates of timelines to shorten massively. It means that they have been over estimating buffering
Frankly if you could find say 200 working earth or climate scientists who disagree with climate change, then I’d be far more interested than having 30k random ‘scientists’ like metrologists, chemists, etc. If you haven’t dug extensively into paleoclimatology in depth, most scientists ideas are about as useless as yours are. Their timelines are too short.
Suffice it to say I like debate on climate change. I just don’t like idiots debating. It really doesn’t matter if it is Al Gore or you or your 30k scientists. If they don’t understand enough about results from the icecores, O16/O18 isotope ratios, fossil tree rings, etc then it is rather pointless.
I’d point out at this point that I did study climate change extensively in my first degree for 3 years. I’ve been reading the papers on it for about 30 years.
Such hubris, Iprent! You think man’s 0.0054% contribution to greenhouse gas is the difference which is creating global warming?
Hilarious.
G. In other words you don’t know and are just pulling what other people say without understanding it. Educate yourself. Read the NOAA report.
This is AFTER the majority of the CO2 has been adsorbed in buffers.
What half-arsed report from some lame-arse are you picking that number from? Or is this just some figure you’re picking out of the air. Or are you considering that fossilised carbon being released is ‘natural’.
You could also consider the evidence from the carbon isotope ratio’s in atmospheric carbon. There is a pretty clear trace back to fossilised carbon being burnt.
According to Wiki as of November 2007, the CO2 concentration in Earth’s atmosphere was about 0.0384% (which is even less than other reports I’ve read). Even if man was responsible for as much as 10% of the Earth’s CO2, his contribution to the atmospheric gases would be less than 0.004%.
A gnat on an elephant’s arse, Chicken Little.
Not all gasses are greenhouse gasses you ninny. CO2 is a small percentage of all gasses, and a large percentage of greenhouse gasses. From later in the Wiki that you linked to:
Should we get rid of all the Oxygen in the air? It’s only about 20% of the atmosphere – who’s going to miss it?
A gnat on an elephant’s arse
The only arse here is the one you have your head up.
Okay, so what is the actual percentage of anthropogenic greenhouse gases outside the 95% created by water vapor?
I can’t be bothered to look it up. Small. But small changes can have large consequences in complex systems (eg with multiple feedback loops and buffering – Earth’s ecology). You like Wikipedia, go look up “Butterfly effect”. Or ponder the consequence of adding just a tiny bit of arsenic to a nice big meal.
Read the damn scientific literature critically, not just looking for factoids that support your point of view. There’s heaps of it linked above G – have you read any? Or even just take the word of the Wiki piece that you linked to, as quoted above.
G: It was in a link on your wiki link. Did you bother to read the page?
Have a look at this page and the links off it… Skip water vapour until the end.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Carbon_dioxide_equivalent
Then look at the links from that for methane
(please note the word billion rather than million there..)
PFC’s
(note that there are no natural sources of PFC’s)
Nitrous Oxide
You should also look at http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Image:Major_greenhouse_gas_trends.png
From NOAA
Now water vapour is the biggest scattering agent – over 95%. However it is essentially reactive to temp’s. Look at the dewpoint at different temp’s. Higher temp’s allow higher humidity and therefore higher heat retention.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Water_vapour#Water_vapor_in_Earth.27s_atmosphere
So despite the other greenhouse gases being less than water vapour for greenhouse effects, it is less of a problem than the other gases. Increasing the amount of water vapor will simply cause rain/dew/etc. However raising the temp will increase the saturation level of water in the atmosphere. A small increase in overall temp due to man made gases can cause a MAJOR amplification due to its effects on water vapour. Adding even small amounts of something like PFC’s causes a ‘natural’ system to amplify it’s effect.
Presumably there will be a top off effect at some point. However I’m not sure that human agricultural and cultural patterns can withstand the changes.
Essentially you are right about volumes, and utterly wrong as to the level of effect that small changes will cause.
Think of petrol being added to an engine. It is a very small amount, but causes a lot of effect when ignited.
Have fun with your basic reading.
… thanks for that exhaustive explanation, Iprent. Still, I don’t see anywhere on those links, not anywhere here a definitive percentage attributed to the anthropogenic gases. As far as I’m aware it’s miniscule, and it’s hubris to think man’s fart in the global jet stream will have ANY effect whatsoever on the 99.99% of other gases which contribute to the greenhouse effect.
If we indeed had a consensus on this – a lie Al Gore & Co. keep perpetuating – then I might have cause for concern, but we most certainly do not. The list of sceptics which include climatologists, geologists, metrologists, chemists, environmentalists (including the founder of Greenpeace), environmental journalists, media outlets, and heads of state are growing by the day.
But the best news of all (that the world isn’t actually coming to an end) is the fact that world isn’t actually coming to an end: every single bias in/bias out computer model has missed their alarmist timetable! It’s not so much the scientists which are calling this theory a load of bullshit – it’s the Earth!
G, I understand the difficulty in accepting that our CO2 release will have a tangible effect, given that a volcanic eruption can account for, say, the US’ output for a year, easily.
One thing to consider is the fragility of the system – don’t think of it as fixed, or a constant. Changes in the past have had a huge effect on the world’s climate. If a volcanic eruption can cool the planet, why can’t we?
The other way I think of it is that there is a natural system, and it was in pretty good balance. Our impact, over two centuries, has injected a massive amount of CO2 into the atmoshpere. Two salient points – the time scale is tiny – a huge change in a comparitively small time, even if the overall percentage isn’t changing too much.
The other point is that we’ve interrupted the natural carbon cycle. Greenhouse gasses are emitted naturally, say, by gasses bubling to the surface, & geothermal activity. That’s after millions of years in a deep cycle (carbon based life forms get buried, turn into fossil fuels over a long period, and return to the surface to decompose, to put it simply). We’ve dug and drilled the stuff out, and put into the atmosphere what would have taken millions of years to occur naturally.
We need a specific set of conditions to thrive – a very specific set of conditions. It’s not impossible that we’re upsetting those conditions.
And on the brighter side, climate change got people off a court charge. Fantastic.
I like your manner, Matthew, very civilized! 🙂
Yes, I was going to get to the volcano dilemma, which goes to prove just how resilient the planet really is. It really doesn’t matter what we throw at it, the power of nature is greater than us all!
Here’s one of my favourite debunkers with a poetic rave on that very subject:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ozO4YB98mCY
Of course the whole CO2 debate is predicated on CO2 actually having an effect on temperature, when in fact there is evidence to suggest the latter precedes the former by as much as 300 years.
And then there’s this:
If greenhouse warming were presently occurring you would get more warming in the troposphere, because greenhouse gases trap heat from escaping the atmosphere in the troposphere. However, that is just not the case. The data collected from satellites and weather balloons show that the earth is in fact warmer than the atmosphere. This evidence damns the theory of greenhouse effect upon climate through CO2.
All seems that measuring the troposphere isn’t that accurate just yet.
http://www.realclimate.org/index.php/archives/2007/12/tropical-troposphere-trends/
http://www.realclimate.org/index.php/archives/2008/05/tropical-tropopshere-ii/
G: I’m not civilised, I’m a sysop.
Don’t be a dickhead. The last time that volcanic eruptions probably sent out the volume of CO2 etc for a duration that we’re emitting was probably the Deccan Flats about 65M years ago.
Most volcanic events that affect the climate are rhyolitic or andesectic (?sp) events. But they are of short duration usually only running for a few years. The basaltic eruptions run for longer but (by comparison) do not do much out-gassing. The gases tend to get bound up far more strongly into the rock structure because of mantle temps and pressures.
Consequently the buffering that has been sucking up our emissions of CO2 mops up those easily. It is relatively easy to see over the recent geological history in carbon isotope levels.
What we’re doing is having a sustained and increasing release of greenhouse gases. Consequently we’re effectively running a vast experiment on the earths buffering systems. If you’d actually read the NOAA data, they’re showing the the buffers are running out of buffer space.
So basically your analogy of looking at volcanic buffering is fundementally flawed because it is geologically rare to have a continuous stream of volcano’s going off in sequence and massively in paradel (?sp) for 50+ years.
Yes correct. BUT where there is a normal gradual rise in CO2 levels, and typically when there is significant glaciation. What you have to remember is that far less then a third of the CO2 emmissions is showing in the atmosphere. The rest is being buffered.
However you’re arguing from a different circumstance. Occassional volcanic events don’t stress the buffering as much. The 300 year lag is most likely from the CO2 going into the cold current water at the poles and then getting released hundreds of years later. There are a number of other possibilities like calcium carbonates etc, but they all act as a sink with eventual release.
But you should (for the 3rd time) read the NOAA numbers. It is showing that buffering is accepting about half the CO2 as it did 10 years ago. Moreover the emmissions are still rising. What that means is that it it is likely to showing strongly in your lifetime if you’re younger than I am. I think that we’ll see significant effects within the next 30 years.
Read Draco’s links. The people whose work you’re basing that claim on have a few wee problems with their methodology.
How about reading enough to make it worth while discussing it with you…
… and one more time… what percentage of the Greenhouse gases is Man supposedly responsible?
And while you’re at it, do you have one single climate model that’s come close to accurately predicting the average global temperature this year?
G, you’re making an idiot of yourself.
Championing those graphs that the polar bear was teaching you about does your credibility no good at all. “ooh, look, the sea ice went up last year after falling for ages, that’s a trend!”
Go and look here for a trend.
http://nsidc.org/arcticseaicenews/
“If greenhouse warming were presently occurring you would get more warming in the troposphere, because greenhouse gases trap heat from escaping the atmosphere in the troposphere. However, that is just not the case. The data collected from satellites and weather balloons show that the earth is in fact warmer than the atmosphere. This evidence damns the theory of greenhouse effect upon climate through CO2.”
That is completely retarded. Of course the earth is warmer than the atmosphere. Greenhouse gases don’t absorb infrared radiation, they reflect it. It doesn’t get “trapped it the troposphere”. Arguing that CO2 does not have a significant impact on global temperature isn’t “skepticism”, it’s “retardacism”. It is a proven fact, it’s not up for debate. The debate is over “how much” and “what caused it”.
As for your obvious lack of faith in models – I can only assume you’ve had very little experience with them. Models are, generally, not that good at predicting the very near future accurately. There are too many little difficult to model bits that mess things around. They can still be quite good in the long term.
Take flipping a coin. You could have a model of a fair coin, and it would only be 50% accurate in telling you whether the coin was going to land heads or tails. Flip the coin 1000 times though and you’ll find that your model is pretty damned good at telling you whether the number of heads will be between 480 and 520.
Good on you for reading around, but read around BOTH sides of the argument, don’t just look at the skeptics views.
It might interest you to know that in the IPCC’s reports they are required to consider ALL opposing submissions, and in those cases that they chose to ignore them they have to say why, and on what evidence. It’s not some bunch of global warming alarmist hacks.
—
Also, since you keep on ridiculing the possibility that small concentrations can have big effects – look up the ozone hole causes and results. How many CFC’s do you think were up there?
Finally, and in closing, as I’ve said many times before: It doesn’t matter whether CO2 is causing global warming. CO2 intensive technologies are crap for thousands of other reasons anyway, so we should move to abandon them regardless. Do you have any idea how many of the proposed emissions reductions schemes have been shown to have a significant net economic benefit? Net, in this instance, means “economic benefit for most people, just not coal power companies”.
… and still no answer! Iprent, Rob, Matthew, Draco and now T-Rex — do none of you ‘experts’ know what percentage of the greenhouse gases can be attributed to mankind? Or is it that our contribution is so flipping small you’re all too embarrassed to admit to it?
T-Rex: “Arguing that CO2 does not have a significant impact on global temperature isn’t “skepticism’, it’s “retardacism’. It is a proven fact, it’s not up for debate.”
Is that right, Mr Rex? Then how do you explain the debate ensuing over the 1.5 million hits on Google for the search “CO2 does not cause global warming”?
As for short-term charting, you’re right — the period of industrialisation in modern history is indeed just a blip in the Earth’s lifespan. Let’s have a look at what eminent marine geologist and climatologist Professor Robert Carter has to say about that:
Part One
Part Two
In this succinct lecture he demonstrates that over the last 3.5 million years, the last 400,000 years, the last 10,000 years, the last 2,000 years and the last 700 years the Earth has been cooling! The spike of the latest period of the current holocene period is, wait for it, NORMAL in both rate and change!! In fact the rate of change in the last century is actually relatively slow compared to the Ice Age when there was a 1 degree shift per decade!
In the other two parts he uses empirical science to torpedo some of the really big floaters in the warm-monger’s argument:
Part Three (This part is particularly good; at the end of it we see sun spot activity laid over the global temp – almost a perfect match. Coincidence? I don’t think so).
Part Four (You’ll love this part: “NOAA’s National Climate Data Center is in the middle of a scandal. Their global observing network, the heart and soul of surface weather measurement, is a disaster. Urbanization has placed many sites in unsuitable locations — on hot black asphalt, next to trash burn barrels, beside heat exhaust vents, even attached to hot chimneys and above outdoor grills.” – and he has photos to prove it!)
Phew. Nothing like a good night sleep knowing the sky isn’t falling. 🙂
[P.S. I’ve seen Al Snore’s alarmist doco… have you guys bothered to watch the counter-argumentative docos? The Great Global Warming Swindle is one you should all watch. The latest version, which – unlike The Inconvenient Truth – has the integrity to have been re-released with its original inaccuracies corrected.]
G said: (This part is particularly good; at the end of it we see sun spot activity laid over the global temp – almost a perfect match. Coincidence? I don’t think so).
http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/2007/mar/13/science.media
G said: The Great Global Warming Swindle is one you should all watch.
If they’ve removed all the inaccuracies then can’t possibly have released anything.
Gah, stuck in the SPAM trap again?
Actually, why am I even trying to correct G anyway? – he obviously doesn’t believe in actual science.
He is, ironically, adopting pretty much the same mentality as the “WTC1 & WTC2 were bought down by controlled demolition” crowd.
G, I’ll reply to you later if I am sufficiently drunk and accommodating. Probably I won’t bother, because I get really really bored of refuting the arguments of crap science.
Such as this one: “Is that right, Mr Rex? Then how do you explain the debate ensuing over the 1.5 million hits on Google for the search “CO2 does not cause global warming’?”
Yes, that’s right. And it’s SIR Mr Rex to you. I think it’s great that 1.5 million people are researching the issue, although I hope their research is a little more balanced than yours. However, research is not the same as belief (at least it shouldn’t be), and even if it was all it would prove is that 1.5million people can’t grasp basic science. CO2 IS a greenhouse gas – anyone who argues otherwise is wrong. It MAY not be resulting in abnormal and significant warming of our planet at PRESENT levels (though I’d love to know why the icecap is melting if not), but it’s sure as hell a greenhouse gas. If you don’t believe me, check out the weather on Venus. Or you think that’s just because it’s closer to the sun?
—
Has anyone read any analysis of the stabilisation effect of the icecap? I mean the phase change from ice to water consumes enourmous energy – I’d expect that to stabilise the temperature.
Think about it G – where is all the energy that’s melting the ice coming from?
Natural cycle or not, it’ll still f*ck us if we don’t prepare for it. You think the ice age/desertification will care whether they were caused by people or not? Answer is robust system. Fossil fuel dependency is anything but robust.
1) Still no answer on the definitive percentage of AGW gases.
2) I’ve not said CO2 isn’t a greenhouse gas; I’m saying Man’s contribution to it is negligible to the point of insignificance, and it may be that CO2 isn’t even the key contributer to GW.
3) You said the debate on that subject was over when it is clearly not.
4) Your precious NOAA is riddled with crap science, not Carter’s charts — nobody here or in the science community is refuting their validity.
5) Given today is 9/11, your allusion to me being a WTC conspiracy theorist is not only mean spirited, it’s actually quite distasteful.
6) As Carter observed, once again the warm-mongers inevitably resort to attacking the man.
As least one of us isn’t losing any sleep over this. 🙂
“The Earth’s atmosphere is a layer of gases surrounding the planet Earth that is retained by the Earth’s gravity. It contains roughly (by molar content/volume) 78.08% nitrogen, 20.95% oxygen, 0.93% argon, 0.038% carbon dioxide, trace amounts of other gases, and a variable amount (average around 1%) of water vapor. This mixture of gases is commonly known as air. The atmosphere protects life on Earth by absorbing ultraviolet solar radiation and reducing temperature extremes between day and night.”
So, the % of AGW gases in the atmosphere is, approximately, “sod all”, but as I mentioned earlier the absolute concentration considered alone is basically irrelevant. Notice you’ve totally failed to address your arguments flaws in light of the Ozone issue btw.
The reason nobody is responding is not because they’re embarassed, it’s because it’s commonly available knowledge already exhaustively considered and they can’t be bothered. You’re not deciphering the rosetta stone here, you’re just applying crap arguments.
You said this: “Is that right, Mr Rex? Then how do you explain the debate ensuing over the 1.5 million hits on Google for the search “CO2 does not cause global warming’?”, a statement clearly trying to discredit assertions that CO2 causes global warming. The debate is NOT over, but only because people who don’t know what they’re talking about keep on debating it. If CO2 is a greenhouse gas then it causes global warming. You ADMIT it’s a greenhouse gas, therefore you’re admitting it causes global warming. So any reference to google searches along the lines of “CO2 does not cause global warming” is just, at the cost of repeating myself, retarded. Negligible – maybe – I haven’t got a model of the climate available so I can’t tell you, but the fact that some very well informed people who DO think it’s not negligible holds some significance.
My precious NOAA? I haven’t even referenced them yet – though interestingly your friend Carter did. And I’m not saying the data is invalid, I’m saying that it’s poorly applied in this context. Look at his sea level plot and use your BRAIN. Sea ice spiked for one year. That is not a trend. That is an outlier. Note the fact that THIS year it’s possibly going to hit a new lowest ever value.
Oh god it’s september 11 oh how terrible clearly my comments denigrating conspiracy theorists is actually an attack on the memory of the victims! Don’t get all Godwin on me you whiny little sap. How many 9-11 conspiracy theorists do you know who died in 9-11? Oh wait, the answer is none. Allow me to make this perfectly clear – people who think that the twin towers were bought down by controlled demolition are morons, and the fact that they waste their lives making videos about missiles being fired etc rather than doing something productive to improve the world (socieoeconomic imbalance being the ACTUAL cause of 9-11) is, itself, more of an affront to the memory of those who died than anything I could say.
The reason we end up attacking the man is that we get so BORED attacking “The Man”‘s stupid arguments. The good arguments I don’t mind, and there are several though they are, as I keep pointing out to you and you keep ignoring, irrelevant as we should reduce CO2 emissions anyway just because they’re associated with lousy backward processes.
Some of your arguments are good – like “causality has not been conclusively proven” etc – but mostly they’re extensively rebutted in the public domain. The impact of water vapour and associated feedback mechanisms, for example, are widely accepted as being poorly understood. The responsible course of action in those circumstances is, however, to do more research and err on the side of caution. YOU, however, appear to be advocating that we abandon the whole thing and burn some motherfu*kin’ COAL baby.
That may not be the case however. What DO you think we should be doing G?
I never lose sleep. I always know exactly where my sleep is.
Okay, so what is the actual percentage of anthropogenic greenhouse gases outside the 95% created by water vapor? … Still no answer on the definitive percentage of AGW gases
Don’t get your undies in a bunch G. 5.53% is one figure I’ve seen. Are you going to argue that that’s too small to make any difference? If so, then you’ve read none of the excellent material linked to above.
In the period since 1750:
– human activity has increased greenhouse gasses
– significant warming has occurred
– no natural process has occurred to account for the warming (the only relevant natural process is a slight increase in solar output, the effect of human activity is estimated to be 15 times greater).
Can’t you do the math from there?
Other possible explanations (like sunspots) have been considered and discarded by the significant majority of the scientific community (sunspots make the wrong predictions about which parts of the atmosphere will warm).
T-Rex has likened the denier literature to the Sept 11 conspiracies, I think it’s more like the smoking cancer link that the tobacco companies managed to deny for so long with their shonky science and willing shills. That’s the league that you’re playing in G.
But if you don’t want to believe all those boring old scientists, how about serious business people? Read the report by the Association of British Insurers, planning for how the industry should deal with the expected increasing costs from climate change effects:
Business people still not worth listening to? How about the American Military:
So how about the Pentagon G – “warm mongers”? Got it wrong have they?
“I think it’s more like the smoking cancer link that the tobacco companies managed to deny for so long with their shonky science and willing shills. That’s the league that you’re playing in G.”
That’s a much better example in terms of the industry mentality, although I think the poor science and selective use of evidence employed by the amateur deniers almost exactly parallels that of other conspiracy theorists. And I’ve still got a grudge against 9-11 conspiracy theorists.
There are levels of denial too. It IS hard to tell exactly what the degree of impact will be – I don’t mind people who say “we don’t know for sure”. The people who piss me off are the ones who go “Man is not, can not, and will never have an impact on the global climate”. Those are the same people who say “There are too many trees in the amazon basin for the lumber/farmin industry to have an impact (in fact I believe the same argument was applied to Kauri’s in NZ), too many fish in the sea for fisheries to have an impact, too much water in the world for DDT to have an impact” etc etc. They have been almost universally wrong so far, and they are almost universally pushing some alternate agenda.
Watch what you argue and how you argue it G, it’s the difference between being an intelligent skeptic displaying caution in the face of public sentiment and being a corporate tool.
G, this is from memory and may be entirely wrong, but I understand CO2 was below 200ppm in the pre-industrial revolution era. It’s now 350ppm and forecast to hit 550ppm by 2050.
We’re looking at a doubling, or more, in the volume of airborne CO2.
Interesting that you commented (relating to volcanic events) that earth is very resilient. That, G, is spot-on. The last time something like this happened, the dinosaurs were thoroughly wiped out, yet the earth was fine; it recovered no worries.
Now how is it you find that of comfort? I bet a T-rex (picking a dinosaur at random…or am I?) is more resilient than us wimpy homo sapiens.
T-rex: “And I’ve still got a grudge against 9-11 conspiracy theorists.”
You sure do! heh. I studied holocaust denial at one stage, and have noted that the style used is oft repeated (disclaimer: please note all, that this has nothing to do with the holocaust specifically. I’m simply talking about the methods used to discredit any idea; using said method does NOT equate one with being a holocaust denier in terms of how evil you are).
It is very simple – you discount one part of an idea you don’t like, and suddenly the whole concept must be wrong. A fascinating example was the “there were no Nazi gas chambers” concept. Someone studied old gas chambers and found two points – there weren’t the correct type of rubber seals on the doors, and the walls did not contain a remnant of the zyklon-b gas used.
Therefore, the Nazis were misunderstood, and the Evil Jews are taking us all for a ride with Holocaust(TM).
Such methodology is used to a remarkable degree – it’s not hard to imagine a scenario in which those two issues identified could be explained away – one must ask where the weight of evidence lies, even if specifics aren’t as expected.
Something to consider. I found that with 9-11 stuff. One or two facts don’t fit right, so it was a Vast Conspiracy. I just can’t see it. Same with climate change. Sure – the models aren’t perfect, but where’s the real eight of evidence?
“5) Given today is 9/11, your allusion to me being a WTC conspiracy theorist is not only mean spirited, it’s actually quite distasteful.”
It was actually the 12th for us NZ-based fellas.
Hands up who still believes in the Hockey Stick?
You see, this one piece of genuine junk science says it all. Everyone was sucked in back then, all the way up to the heads of state, and now all those state-sponsored scientists are desperately holding on to their jobs by perpetuating the myth.
AGW is a T.H.E.O.R.Y… it hasn’t been proven ~ not here, not anywhere ~ and there’s a huge number of genuine scientists who are now rejecting it outright. If it was fact why don’t the IPCC just accept the call for an independent debate and get on with it? Answer: because denying is heresy, they have a vested interest in the warm-mongering, there’s a stack of contrary evidence that would throw doubt into the minds of too many people, and they need to have a consensus for the gravy train to keep on rolling.
I note that none of you has refuted Prof. Clarks charts that prove we’re in actually in cooling trend since way back.
The day climate models start hitting their marks, let me know. In the meantime relax… it’s all gonna be okay. 🙂
“The day climate models start hitting their marks, let me know.”
It will be a bit too late by then, I’m afraid, given that the same models generally say that if we act now, we’re only fairly screwed, not goneburger.
Quantum theory is just a THEORY. It doesn’t stop an entire industry being based on it – most CPU’s rely on quantum effects these days.
etc… Everything is a theory – NOTHING can be ‘proved’ unless you want to rely on faith.
Since that is where you seem to want to be, then we’ll just have to file you under “Idiot with faith and no real knowledge” along with many others.
Dummies guide to the latest “Hockey Stick” controversy
Scientific theory
“You see, this one piece of genuine junk science says it all.”
No, it doesn’t. Give me a single example of a field of scientific endeavour where the answer was perfect first time round? Quantum physics is a great example Lynn.
Who the f*ck cares that it’s been warmer in the past? Like Matt says, there have been mass extinction events in the past. By your reasoning, if a giant asteroid was going to hit the earth we should worry, because asteroids have hit the earth in the past. If you accept that there is likely to be a global temperature rise of a couple of degrees then you have to accept ALLLL the drama that comes with it, no matter how many such rises there have been previously.
Global warming would not cause the “end of the world”. It just might make things pretty freaking difficult for those who have adapted to the status quo.
For now, G, I’m concluding that you’re actually some 16yo web-warrior who reads too many Michael Crichton books, so I can’t be bothered arguing the point – given most of your arguments are irrelevant. But whatever, you stick at it, I guess at least you’re doing SOME quasi-research, it’s probably better for you than playing grand theft auto all day.
Adios.
“It will be a bit too late by then, I’m afraid, given that the same models generally say that if we act now, we’re only fairly screwed, not goneburger.”
Thing is, Matthew, if the models are inaccurate, they’re inaccurate. Why give them any credence? Pascal’s wager is no reason to introduce yet another tax.
“Quantum theory is just a THEORY.”
Ahhh, Iprent (or is it Lynn?), but unlike climate modeling, Quantum mechanics are reliable, otherwise they’d be entirely useless…
“Everything is a theory – NOTHING can be ‘proved’ unless you want to rely on faith.”
… and there it is: faith and AGW; the new religion for which skeptics are brandished as heretics.
“Who the f*ck cares that it’s been warmer in the past?”
You should care, T, because as soon as you get your head around the idea that it was warmer in the past – thousands of years before industrialisation – it’ll dawn on you that this is simply part of Earth’s natural cycle. Take another look at those charts. The long term trend is indicating a gradual cooling. If anything we should be pumping more greenhouse gas into the atmosphere.
Sleep tight. 🙂
“Thing is, Matthew, if the models are inaccurate, they’re inaccurate.”
Hey everybody, look! It’s a climate change denier with a black and white view of an issue! Come quick, bring your camera!
“Ahhh, Iprent (or is it Lynn?), but unlike climate modeling, Quantum mechanics are reliable, otherwise they’d be entirely useless “
Look, they don’t understand quantum mechanics either!! They’re only reliable on AVERAGE G, much like most… oh, what were we talking about a moment ago? Oh yeah, models.
“and there it is: faith and AGW; the new religion for which skeptics are brandished as heretics.” said the annoying Troll, deliberately misinterpreting what had just been suggested.
“You should care, T, because as soon as you get your head around the idea that it was warmer in the past – thousands of years before industrialisation – it’ll dawn on you that this is simply part of Earth’s natural cycle. Take another look at those charts. The long term trend is indicating a gradual cooling. If anything we should be pumping more greenhouse gas into the atmosphere.”
…Actually I think I’ll just leave that. Your reasoning is GOD. AWFUL. However it might interest you to know that one of the possible results of significant GHG emissions is another ice age. Though not in the “Day after tomorrow” sense. Not that that is remotely pointed to by any of your data.
Meteor strikes and supervolcanos are part of the earths natural cycle you gumby, it doesn’t mean we should aim to artifically recreate them.
Take another look at those charts. The long term trend is indicating a gradual cooling.
G you’re the biggest fool I’ve ever seen on this blog, and that is against some very stern competition. Congratulations.
You cling to these charts to claim that the climate is cooling when all other sources cited above say it is warming. You believe these charts compared to all other sources because you think they tell you what you want to believe. Well, you have a problem. The charts are based on data from the Hadley Center – the UK Met Office (see the bottom right of graph 1). So what do the Hadley Center have to say? Let’s start with an introduction on a climate science blog:
http://climateprogress.org/2008/05/09/hadley-center-to-deniers-we-are-still-warming/
http://climateprogress.org/2008/03/18/hadley-center-to-delayers-deniers-pielke-global-warming-not-cooling/
Let’s check out the Hadley Center themselves – they put together some resources just for people like you G:
http://www.metoffice.gov.uk/corporate/pressoffice/myths/index.html
Check out some of the underlying data:
http://www.metoffice.gov.uk/research/hadleycentre/obsdata/
So there you go G, you say the Hadley Center data shows cooling, the Hadley Center (you know – professional meteorologists, the people who publish the data) say it shows warming.
Who should we believe G – you or the Hadley Center?
OH NOES GUYS!
G is fully right for realz on teh cooling trend.
I just checked, and according to SCIENCE the average temperature of the universe 300,000 years after its formation was 3000 degrees kelvin. It is WAY colder than that on earth now! Look out! Spread the truth!
Gotta go, I haven’t twittered on myspace for like 8minutes and my livejournal is way out of date plzkthanks.
It always makes me laugh how the fossil fuel lobby is always pushing the line that “those damn paleoclimatologists are just trying to keep themselves in a job” and keeping a straight face.
Damn paleoclimatologists. Always looking out for number one they are. Unlike the fossil fuel industry, which is famously altruistic and is just after what’s best for humanity as a whole…
T-Rex
Oath. It’s an astoundingly paranoid worldview. There is a conspiracy of tens and hundreds of thousands, lasting decades. The conspiracy consists of scientists who set out to learn about the world, but are deliberately lying about what they have discovered in order to hold on their enormous government pay checks. Even though there are many private sector companies that would actually pay them more money to tell the truth, these scientists continue to lie because, ummm, they want gov’t grants to continue studying things they know are false. Or something.
Retards.
Same can be said for those damn evolutionists.