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What Now?

Written By: - Date published: 11:30 am, May 24th, 2017 - 60 comments
Categories: International, Politics, Social issues - Tags: ,

Manchester Arena is the latest in a very long list of terrorist attacks, most of which we have little or no awareness of. So, what’s the idea after Manchester?

Well, I guess we could sit back and endure those who have quaffed on cocktails of fear and hate. I’m sure there are plenty of politicians and media pundits who will be more than willing to serve up gantries of the stuff in coming days.

But I’m sick of it.

I’m not interested in ‘defending’ people who get all fucked up and cause carnage for some (to them) greater cause, but I am interested in contributory factors that we might be able to influence.

If strains of Islam are the vehicle, I think it’s reasonable to say that we don’t have any direct influence over those strains of Islam. But what about the fuels that are driving that vehicle?

What are they? And what if anything can we do to cut those supplies?

60 comments on “What Now?”

  1. Sabine 1

    i shall repost here another story from yesterday that was/is very little spoken about.

    A young guy kills two Neo Nazi roomates cause he converted to Islam. Yeah, that happened. During the Police follow up they disover that a thrid, surviving neo nazi room mate was having lots of stuff to make bombs and even some radio active materials floating about. OH Dear.

    where to from here? Maybe only if we ask ourselfs why killing is the more attractive option to some of our people? Why can some young people like the bomber in Manchester and the would be bombers in Miami Florida be more attracted to causing misery and pain.

    Maybe the hurt in them is so much that they don’t mind killing, it in fact is a relieve and all society, their families and the likes give them is pain. Call it retribution.

    But no matter what and how we go forward, what these to incidents show is that religion is not the foremost reason.

    http://www.miamiherald.com/news/local/community/florida-keys/article151953257.html
    He had just returned from U.S. Army National Guard duty May 19 to discover that his roommate, Devon Arthurs, 18, murdered two people in the apartment they shared in in the Hamptons at Tampa Palms complex. Both deceased were found in the apartment by the Tampa Police Department with multiple gunshots to the upper body and head.

    Arthurs confessed to the killings and said the victims were also white supremacists, according to the arrest report.

    Arthurs told police he was a white supremacist until his recent conversion to Islam, according to the arrest affidavit. He said that in “some time” before the murders, Russell participated in no-Nazi online chat rooms where he “threatened to kill people and bomb infrastructure,” according to the FBI report.

    Inside Russell’s bedroom, they found a framed photograph of Timothy McVeigh, who was convicted and put to death for bombing the Alfred P. Murrah Federal Building in Oklahoma City on April 19, 1995. They also found Nazi/white supremacist propaganda, according to the FBI complaint. While in his bedroom, devices used by police bomb technicians alerted to the presence of radiation sources — thorium and americium.

    Before asking for an attorney, Russel told FBI agents he was a “national socialist,” according to the complaint, and a member of a group called the “Atom Waffen,” or “atomic weapon” in German.

    He said the explosives were manufactured in 2013 for a rocket-making project he was working on for the engineering club at the University of South Florida to send balloons into the atmosphere. But FBI Agent Timothy Swanson wrote in his report that HMTD is “too energetic and volatile for these types of uses.”

  2. roy cartland 2

    I thought it was interesting that one slogan for the Manchester solidarity is “we the many”. That’s the slogan UKLP is using for changing the type of politics and societal attitudes which have contributed to this mess.

    If people can realise that atomisation and predatory capitalism can be reversed through unity, it would be a starting point. The hurdle would be avoiding the label of ‘politicising’ the situation (as if it ever existed outside politics).

    • Carolyn_nth 2.1

      “We are many” is actually taken from a pacifist poem by Shelley.

      “The Mask of Anarchy”

      “The Masque of Anarchy” (or “The Mask of Anarchy”) is a British political poem written in 1819 (see 1819 in poetry) by Percy Bysshe Shelley following the Peterloo Massacre of that year. In his call for freedom, it is perhaps the first modern statement of the principle of nonviolent resistance.

      Rise, like lions after slumber
      In unvanquishable number!
      Shake your chains to earth like dew
      Which in sleep had fallen on you:
      Ye are many—they are few!”[3]

  3. One Two 3

    The core problem as I see it, is that the narratives are controlled (deliberately) to achieve (whichever) outcome is desired

    Can people ‘know’ what transpired leading up to (name the event), who was in fact responsible, and who ‘controlled/staged/managed’ the ‘event’

    The parameters are incredibly narrow for which the distracted public eye can draw conclusions from, that the ‘purpose’ of these events is ultimately not readily apparant

    Obfuscate and wage war by any means, are philosophies of both ‘good and bad’ entities…

    The Tavistock Institute may have some thoughts on the matter

  4. shorts 4

    the west kills hundreds/thousands/millions of innocents across a number of predominantly muslim countries – including children… and we do bugger all, hey its collateral damage

    A terrorist kills some westerners at a concert and we act like the world is ending

    at some point we’ve got to stop allowing out governments to slaughter with impunity

    please note I am not making excuses for the actions of the terrorists that target young people at a concert, but we can’t act like our young people should be immune

  5. McFlock 5

    Well, I seem to recall that many of the terrorists in the US or Europe were not the neocon wet dream of “refugee from Syria is secretly an AQ/ISIS plant” or whatever, but were actually 1st generation born in the country they made their attack in, or at least were very young when their parents made the decision to emigrate.

    Which tends to point to issues around how one connects with one’s roots and integrates with society, rather than ‘[insert here] is bad’.

    • Molly 5.1

      “Which tends to point to issues around how one connects with one’s roots and integrates with society, rather than ‘[insert here] is bad’.”

      Agree. But it also points to the ability (or inability) of the surrounding society to accept and welcome them into everyday life and groups, given their personal history and beliefs.

      It also asks the question: Is there a place where these grievances can be legitimately heard and change made?

      As has been pointed out, there are incidents involving the sanitised term “collateral damage” happening all over the world, often perpetrated by our own allies. And if someone – with personal and familial links to those places – is living in a community where these incidents are not only not newsworthy, but surrounded by people who consider this to be necessary, you don’t have to go far to see the disconnect.

      Unfortunately, the most likely place to find outrage and calls for change are with those who promote division and further carnage – for their own selfish purposes.

      Our questions about why will never be comfortably answered, we should also be asking where other avenues for expressing distress existed. Given the level of political dysfunction in the UK, the failure of immigration policies and implementation to address the issues of new and old citizens, the loss of credible news media and intellectual public discourse on issues such as the Middle East and UK and US involvement, it is also reasonable to suggest we need to consider the question “Why Not?”.

      A further thought that occurred to me after reading a couple of the articles, that quite rightly singled out the emergency services for praise.

      Primarily, how different it would be to go forward to help in this situation as opposed to one with no intended casualties – such as a train wreck or civil emergency.

      To put themselves on the line, knowing that a 100% guarantee of safety cannot be given, is to witness the best of human courage.

      With also a nod to the courage of Chelsea Manning, who leaks showed the world that the US uses double-strike taps by it’s drones to eliminate those with similar courage who go into help after the first strike hits.

      These people hit the second time, cannot realistically be given any justification to be legitimate targets. They are most likely the best of that community and they too are killed. (Not to mention, the failings of the current system to identify legitimate targets even on the first strike).

      I despair at the deaths and injuries at Manchester Arena, and reflect again on how hard it is to construct and build, and so immediate and much easier it is to destroy and dismantle.

      How do you build a society where such a thought becomes less likely – both as military tactic and as a personal action? Because it is obvious – we aren’t there yet.

  6. Adrian Thornton 6

    Until foreign military and other forces are extracted from the middle East and North Africa, and these same countries also stop flooding the region with weapons, it would be very hard to see any solution to Islamic extremists, who, in their view, are at war with foreign invaders.

    I am no apologist for Saddam Hussein, but I think his quote here would probably find wide approval throughout the Middle East, and no doubt would also find agreement with many disenfranchised radicalized youth in the west today…

    “And just as your beautiful skyscrapers were destroyed and caused your grief, beautiful buildings and precious homes crumbled over their owners in Lebanon, Palestine, and Iraq by American weapons…. Americans should feel the pain they have inflicted on other peoples of the world, so as when they suffer, they will find the right solution and the right path.”

    The more pressure and tension an ideology is put under, the more entrenched and radical it will become..I think that much is plainly obvious.

    As far as what we can do, that in my view, has to start with our media treating the lives destroyed by bombs, terrorism and war in non western countries with the same degree of importance as the lives of someone from Manchester.
    When was the last time RNZ had half a dozen interviews with shocked and distraught survivors of a terrorist attack in The Middle East or North Africa?
    Should we feel less sympathy for those unnamed killed and maimed from other lands? should we believe that those lives have less value than those in Manchester? That, to me, would be the obvious inference I would take from the coverage assigned to this tragedy as opposed to the minimal coverage so many other terrorist atrocities get.

  7. Gabby 7

    Where to may depend on where the murderer learnt to make his bomb. His mental health history. Who else knew what he was up to.

  8. Bill 8

    Years ago, I had the suspicion that if I’d been brought up in N. Ireland and subjected to the daily humiliations imposed on Catholics by the British Army and N. Irish society in general, that I may well have picked up a gun in a rush of youthful hot headedness and heart felt righteousness.

    It crosses my mind today, that if I was a young Muslim man being subjected to all the stuff that’s imposed on people in numerous countries these days, then yeah, maybe.

    It also crosses my mind that young Muslim men in ‘white’ western countries being subjected to all manner of systemic bigotry and discrimination, don’t now need to simply nurse their wrath in isolation. Now they have a larger whole to identify with – one that, however twisted and misanthropic, provides a reason and a logic for committing really bad shit.

    Serves our masters rather well too – that understandable, though not excusable reaction.

    They get to be our ‘saviours’ in this big bad world that they ‘just happen’ to be instrumental architects of…this world increasingly built around things like fear, injustice, desperation and madness.

    • Sorry but im calling bullshit.

      There are thousands of young Muslim men who don’t commit atrocities. There is a small subset of EVERY group who need very little if any provocation to kill.

      Blaming it on the yanks is also simplistic rubbish – too much Hollywood infection.

      • McFlock 8.1.1

        well, I agree that the political side of “serves our masters rather well” is bunk.

        But thousands of young Irish kids never joined a paramilitary force. And thousands of suburban kids never committed a school shooting.

        I suspect the main ingredients are universal, it’s just the topping that differs: someone disaffected and socially alienated finds someone or something that reinforces negative impulses by encouraging a victim or persecution perception, and usually provides validation in the form of power and notoriety should the event take place.

        • Bill 8.1.1.1

          You don’t see that creating an external threat serves to bolster domestic centres of authority? okay

          • McFlock 8.1.1.1.1

            In general, I don’t see that any external threat needs to be created or gratefully accepted by the powers that be.

            Some instances have needed one to be generated in order to justify some significant social changes, e.g. the nazis or one or two suspicious bombings in Russia in the 1990s or the North koreans today.

            But in general I reckon that most governments in need of an external threat or security services in need of a fundraiser are probably well assured that the tragedy of the human condition ensures that one won’t be too far off. Because people are jerks.

            Indeed, I think that the convenient myth of various international threats is significant enough in reality to actually be a fact, which basically turns suggestions of these things being convenient for authority structures into arguments for the existence of those authority structures.

            edit: in short, “serves our masters rather well” could equally read “this is why we have security services”.

            • Bill 8.1.1.1.1.1

              I didn’t say it needs to be created. I’m saying it is being created.

              So, y’know – apparently inexplicable terrorism justifying an erosion of rights and expansion of ‘a surveillance state’ over society.

              By your last line, do you mean that the existence of threats justifies the existence of “authority structures”, or that those threats can serve to undermine any such justification?

              Why is the threat there? What’s it in response to? Is the threat to those “authority structures” – where we may or may not be collateral damage – or to us. I’m not quite sure how you’re looking at it.

              • McFlock

                Even without those authority structures, the world is still full of massive dicks. These massive dicks require a collective response to minimise the impact of their massive dickishness.

                Unless you can come up with non-authoritarian substitutes for the police and security services, I say that the existence of those threats necessitates some manner of police and security service. Not merely “justifies”.

                • Bill

                  So the question then becomes whether policing and security has to be, or can only be exercised by some form of concentrated power. Fair enough.

                  • McFlock

                    pretty much, yeah

                    • Bill

                      And of course we can.

                      Police and others aren’t some super-human species or whatever. The questions become those of possible operational structures and meaningful systems of accountability.

                      A conversation for another day perhaps?

                    • McFlock

                      yeah, I’m definitely in the camp of watching the watchers.

              • One Two

                Some do not appear to have basic understanding that the increase in ‘terrorism’ events, is on a recent timeline. They see a chicken v egg situation for whatever reason, such as McFlock has stated “why we have security services”…

                Naively misguided to say the least

                20-30 years ago, ‘terrorism events’ were rare exceptions,

                The fault lies squarely with UK/US/Israel/France/Saudi, and those entities who control, and have the ‘power’ to ‘create’ two of thoses states, and the ‘power’ to inflict the violent damage upon the planet and its inhabitants using the constructs which the same ‘power’ controls

                ‘Power’ is what you can’t directly see. The results and consequences of ‘power’, are seen and felt by the plebians, who then obediently express in the wrong directions…

                • McFlock

                  20-30 years ago, ‘terrorism events’ were rare exceptions

                  🙄
                  not in Europe (note that list only includes attacks with more than ten deaths) and the US, they weren’t.

                  They’re much more common globally now, yes – but mostly in countries that 20-30 years ago were active state-sponsored war zones (so explosions were still hardly rare exceptions) or dictatorships (so minimal terrorism because security services. Although shitty dictatorships.).

      • Bill 8.1.2

        Who “blamed it on the yanks”?

        There were thousands of young Catholic men in N Ireland who didn’t commit acts of violence btw.

        Care to explain how the N. Ireland peace process worked out if your claim that “there is a small subset of EVERY group who need very little if any provocation to kill” is true?

        By that reasoning the peace process should have only have had a minimal impact.

        • marty mars 8.1.2.1

          Adrian was going on about the yanks.

          I’m the one saying it is a small subset – you, on one hand agree and the next sentence attack that contention – wtf – that is a small subset of why your argumentative argument fails btw

          • Bill 8.1.2.1.1

            You’re not making any sense whatsoever.

            If a small subset of any group need very little reason to kill, then how could a peace process anywhere ever bear fruit? By your stated reasoning, that small sub-set would carry on killing people regardless. (They need very little if any provocation to kill. according to you.)

            About what Adrian was saying. Reply tabs. You know all about reply tabs. Use them.

            • marty mars 8.1.2.1.1.1

              ffs a small subset isn’t the big set. It isn’t that hard to follow unless you deliberately are trying to be a prick.

      • Tinfoilhat 8.1.3

        Thanks for saving me the trouble MM.

        I also note that Bill saves his ‘headchopper’ terminology for his Syria argumentation the stench of hypocrisy and false sanctimony in his posts is becoming overwhelming.

        • Bill 8.1.3.1

          That’s a nice rant. Any rationale on offer that might back up your assertions?

      • Ennui 8.1.4

        So Marty this calling bullshit. Bill in each paragraph says “I might”…..why might he not? Obviously the vast majority don’t but some do. Calling bullshit just does not cut it. I don’t know the real reason this person suicide bombed and we need to know. Bill had an idea. What idea have you got?

        • marty mars 8.1.4.1

          Peer pressure is a very big one i’d say.

          I dont think events turn someone into a mass murderer of innocents. It is already in them. Objectification and dehumanising are steps I think needed to commit multiple murders. And indocrination plus peer pressure can play a big part.

          Once I used to dress up in saffron robes with my shaved head and beads and I’d walk up queen st on a friday night chanting the names of God so that all who heard whether they believed or not derirved some spiritual benefit in my eyes. Belief and the wanting to belong are very powerful.

    • weka 8.2

      Yes, and to me that is self-evident and I don’t know why we are still having to talk about this. Not having a go at you, the post is important. Just weird that dynamic is still supposedly in contention. And it’s very similar to the dynamics underlying many other violences. Generally people whose wellbeing is supported don’t commit murder.

    • Adrian Thornton 8.3

      @Bill, I think that you are right, this is exactly why I believe it is critical that there has to be more balance in the media around all these tragedies, as it stands with our totally skewed and biased coverage, we only reinforce and entrench divides.

      Instead of these events driving these wedges between different cultures. races, and dividing us all, they could easily be used by a smart media to reinforce our similarities, that we all feel the same pain, loss, bewilderment, that we all want our children,family and friends to live without fear, no matter race, religion, or what part of the world you live in.

      I have emailed RNZ numerous times, asking politely, that they consider taking this angle on their reportage on these events.

      You ask what is to be done, well that is what I can do, and have done ( and ask my friends to do) not much I know, but if a hundred of people emailed or wrote into RNZ with a similar request then maybe?

  9. weka 9

    Am listening to an interview between George Monbiot and Russell Brand. Monbiot just said that most people are good and want to be in community. A small % are sociopaths. Sociopaths born into poor families end up in prison, sociopaths born into rich families go to business school.

    My take on that is that at the moment we are top heavy with people in charge who are fundamentally not equipped to manage the wellbeing of humans given we are inherently communal and co-operative. This is why I don’t see a huge amount of difference between the US presidents who bomb civilians and the Islamic fundamentalist leaders who bomb civilians. They’re all the wrong people to be in charge, and in the case of the US at least it’s the system that creates that (I’m sure Obama was a decent enough person under the right conditions).

    In terms of solutions, build community and have extended compassion for communities that are struggling.

    • Bill 9.1

      Basically, the final line.

      Though it seems to me there’s a lot of pressure being applied in the opposite direction. In our fairly insulated western societies we are to be individualistic, not communal.

      And we’re strongly encouraged to accede to a societal view that ‘others’ and/or diminishes those societies or cultures that aren’t right alongside our own on some comfortable imagined continuum.

      • Molly 9.1.1

        Agree.

        We also have to do our best to hold our “representatives” to account, and ensure they also exhibit these behaviours.

        Was watching a Bastoy prison item on Youtube, (that comes from a Mike Moore film – sicko) where the top executive employed by their state owned oil company, expressed his surprise at being hired. (@t 2:41) His role – as an academic philosopher – to ensure the long-term benefits of the citizens who owned the company, and to ensure it was run ethically.

    • RedLogix 9.2

      @weka

      The Dunedin Longitudinal Study essentially makes the same point …. that a small fraction of the population (< 5% ) can be identified from a very early age as "over confidant/under controlled". This group have volatile personalities and crucially when exposed to any form of abuse as a child between the ages about 5 – 10 are the group most likely to become dangerous as adults.

      In essence yes … every society has a small group of sociopaths who are most prone to committing atrocities. Islam has no monopoly on them. However in the normal course of events society exerts a strong constraint upon them. By moral force and intense social disapproval any one-off act in isolation quickly dampens out.

      But every society has it's hidden fractures; the global one we live having many. The tension between the western democracies and the Islam being especially potent. And when a leader chooses to exploit these tensions for their own political purposes they also unleash the normal inhibitions which keep the sociopaths in check.

      The former Yugoslavia is a prime example; the demise of a strong man leader whose own totalitarian rule had suppressed racial and cultural tensions for generations, the rise of demagogues who saw an opportunity to demonise their opponents … first led to one sociopathic act of terror, to another in reprisal and so on. As one commentator at the time memorably described it, “their society unzipped from bottom up”.

      In Europe right now it is the children of first generation Muslim immigrants who are the ones struggling with fractured identities, social barriers and inequality. It’s a classic scenario, the immigrant generation know why they made the move to another country and want nothing more than for their children have a better life. Their children however struggle with a split identity, not fitting in with either the ‘old country’ nor really their new one. It’s the second and third generations who start to forge their own way.

      And this is the toxic combination we are seeing here, radical religious leadership willing to exploit these very real social tensions, first generation immigrant alienation, and a small minority of damaged individuals responding with sociopathic atrocities.

  10. David Mac 10

    Modern warfare places participants so far apart. The drones cruising the barren hills are being operated by soldiers chucking down Big Macs and Cokes in an air-conditioned bunker just out of Vegas.

    The Brits there for WW2 talk of the pulse jet sound from the Nazi rockets and the terror associated with hearing one stop. That model aircraft sound from a drone is playing exactly the same tune. Treat people like that, they’re going to bite back. Regularly seeing the look of sheer terror in your child’s face is quite some motivator.

    The suicide bomber will never need to meet the parents of those young girls, the soldiers in a bunker in Nevada will never need to meet the parents of their ‘unluckies’.

    I think everyone without birthright should get the hell out of there. Let what will be, be. Every time I’ve stood in the middle of domestic friction, I failed to help…and that was just 3 of us. Eventually, they sorted it out for the best.

    Corny as but Lennon was right, all we need is love.

  11. greywarshark 11

    People younger won’t remember but there were bomb incidents in Australia when bad history from WW2 was still being played out – this time it was some of the Yugoslavs as they were then, particularly the Croatians. It was seen as something to contain then not the end of civilisation, but a dent in it.

    Their problem went back to WW2 and after and every time now there is a bombing or some outrage that is another flame to be kept burning to erupt in the future. What is being done in the Middle East is disastrous for reason, and likely to rebound in years to come and we may just have to put up with it then and try and understand.

    And on reading the start of the wikipedia info on the Oz events there was also a taint of set up by a state security agency. The ripples go wide and for years after these events.
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Croatian_Six

  12. This idea that people who have seen friends and family killed will go on some Rambo revenge quest is rubbish. Had this happened elsewhere? Anywhere? No it is a movie meme. The damage emotionally, mentally and physically from seeing loved ones killed doesn’t turn people into killers, murderers of innocents. they are more likely to suffer for years barely getting through with PTSD and other debilitating illnesses. ffs wake up people – how much of the propaganda against Muslims is similar to this subtle othering and dehumanising.

    • David Mac 12.1

      I think it does create a widespread, heartfelt sentiment. A feeling strong enough to inspire the unhinged to behave in an extreme manner with the belief that they are helping.

      • greywarshark 12.1.1

        I think that is the point – unhinged. And the sensitivities of the young or poor can be played upon by clerics or warlords or simple crims.

        People who have had family wiped out, been traumatised om some way, don’t necessarily go Rambo though. They may become afraid so much that their unconscious makes them cower. Some of the WW1 returnees could be made to duck and run doubled-over by a sudden loud noise, as boys found out to their amusement. But whatever the bad experience it leaves scars.

    • Bill 12.2

      As far as I’m aware, no-one has said that seeing loved ones killed will result in “some Rambo revenge quest”.

      • marty mars 12.2.1

        Semantics – how brave lol

        • weka 12.2.1.1

          yeah, people with ptsd never act out of their pain.

          • marty mars 12.2.1.1.1

            Not sure what you’re talking about. Bill and I are discussing the semantics of who said what – for instance i mentioned rambo and bill is saying no one said they WILL turn into rambos. That is correct and imo beside the point and nit picky semantics that deviates from the point I was making that bill responded to.

  13. rhinocrates 13

    FWIW

    https://www.scientificamerican.com/article/special-report-the-psychology-of-terrorism/

    Special Report: The Psychology of Terrorism – Five experts share recent studies, classical research and professional experiences that shed light on defusing the threat of extremism

    https://www.scientificamerican.com/article/what-research-says-about-defeating-terrorism/

    What Research Says about Defeating Terrorism – Seven enlightening studies from social psychology hold vital lessons for policy makers—and the rest of us

    https://www.scientificamerican.com/article/fueling-terror-how-extremists-are-made/

    Fueling Terror: How Extremists Are Made – The psychology of group dynamics goes a long way toward explaining what drives ordinary people toward radicalism

    https://www.scientificamerican.com/article/rescue-mission-freeing-young-recruits-from-the-grip-of-isis/

    Rescue Mission: Freeing Young Recruits from the Grip of ISIS – Memories and emotions—not reason—hold the key to reclaiming young fanatics, according to an expert team in France

  14. keepcalmcarryon 14

    Social engineering, mass migration and globalisation. Humans are tribal people, as nice as the idea of everyone living cheek by jowl might be, there are social problems.
    Lack of integration of ethnic minorities is the key issue – migration has to be at a pace that allows everyone to adjust to their new life, locals and immigrants alike, that is the only way people can accept each other.
    Being treated as outsiders or not integrating- either due to local hostility from open immigration policy not wanted, or lack of government welfare to integrate properly leads to the next generation growing up with a chip on their shoulder, looking for an non conforming identity.

  15. One Anonymous Bloke 15

    If strains of Islam are the vehicle

    As mentioned on the “Oh Manchester” post, ideology has very little to do with the reasons people become terrorists.

    • Bill 15.1

      Yeah, some of those links rhinocrates provided cover that territory too.

      Not quite seeing how that contradicts “strains of Islam being the vehicle” though.

      • One Anonymous Bloke 15.1.1

        I don’t think it contradicts it as such. To labour the metaphor, if I’m looking for a vehicle there are plenty to choose from.

        Psycho Milt rages against Islam because it explicitly sanctions violence in much the same way as the Bible does (cloth of mixed threads etc.): arguments regarding the colour of the vehicle say nothing about the state of mind of the driver.

        • keepcalmcarryon 15.1.1.1

          Except biblically the stonings etc were old testament and noone condones that shit now. Contrast with radical islam. I note the bomber was a devout muslim: https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2017/may/23/manchester-arena-attacker-named-salman-abedi-suicide-attack-ariana-grande

          “Mohammed Saeed, a senior figure of Didsbury Mosque and Islamic Centre, said Salman Abedi had looked at him “with hate” after he gave a sermon criticising Isis and Ansar al-Sharia in Libya.”
          as Ive said somewhere else, its accepted that many of these terrorists are not at heart religious they are poorly integrated immigrants or their progeny with a chip on their shoulder looking for an outlet.
          That said, wahabist islam is filling that niche.
          Saudi and their USA backers should also be condemned for their direct or indirect support.
          Huffpost had an excellent few articles on this , here is one: http://www.huffingtonpost.com/alastair-crooke/isis-wahhabism-saudi-arabia_b_5717157.html

        • Bill 15.1.1.2

          Indeed. (Never quite understood people insisting Buddhism is/was all mungbeans and sunshine).

          But short of listing every ‘vehicle’ I could think of, I thought the word ‘if’ as a qualifier served its purpose well enough.

  16. Ed 16

    Stop our addiction to oil.

  17. mary_a 17

    This article from NZH today, written by investigative journalist James Harkin, gives an insight to how Islamic fundamentalists might see and judge western culture, putting themselves in the self appointed position of taking down and wiping out what they perceive as debauched values, particularly where women and music are concerned. The irony being, in past lives many of these young men lived debauched lives, before becoming part of radical Islam!

    Although not for me, I can however understand why some people are led towards particular religions … in the hope of leading better lives, guidance perhaps … SBW being one example, of someone I see now leading a cleaner, more generous, less selfish, peaceful life, through conversion to Islam. But what drives some to want to become part of an organisation such as ISIS through Islam in the first place is anyone’s guess.

    If nothing else, Harkin’s piece is an interesting read.

    James Harkin is director of the Centre for Investigative Journalism and a reporter on Syria and the rise of Islamic State.
    http://www.nzherald.co.nz/lifestyle/news/article.cfm?c_id=6&objectid=11862281

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  • Hon Shane Jones announces candidacy for the seat of Northland
    Hon Shane Jones, NZ First List MP based in Northland New Zealand First MP Hon Shane Jones has today announced his candidacy for the electorate of Northland. Speaking at a New Zealand First meeting in Kerikeri, Northland, Mr Jones said it was a privilege to be selected by the Party ...
    3 hours ago
  • Foreign Minister announces two diplomatic appointments
    Rt Hon Winston Peters, Deputy Prime Minister, Minister of Foreign Affairs Foreign Affairs Minister Winston Peters today announced two diplomatic appointments: New Zealand’s High Commissioner to India and Consul-General to Hong Kong. “As New Zealand recovers from COVID-19, our diplomatic and trade networks are more important than ever. That is ...
    2 days ago
  • Week That Was: Recover and rebuild
    We started the week by announcing free apprenticeships to support Kiwis into work and to help get New Zealand moving again - and we ended the week by extending the wage subsidy to 40,000 more businesses, helping to protect businesses and workers alike.  ...
    2 days ago
  • How Budget 2020 is backing businesses
    We’re confident in the ability of Kiwi businesses to succeed in the face of COVID-19, and our Government is committed to doing our bit to enable that success. Kiwi businesses have always been innovative and resilient, and the COVID-19 pandemic has proven this yet again. Many businesses are finding new, creative ...
    2 days ago
  • New Zealand First confirms its first tranche of candidates
    New Zealand First is pleased to release the names of its first tranche of candidates for the 2020 election. The includes all sitting New Zealand First Members of Parliament except Clayton Mitchell MP who earlier today announced he will not be seeking re-election. In alphabetical order they are: MP ...
    2 days ago
  • New Zealand First MP Clayton Mitchell not seeking re-election
    Clayton Mitchell MP, New Zealand First List MP based in Tauranga New Zealand First MP Clayton Mitchell has decided not to seek re-election in this year’s General Election.  “After serious consideration and discussion with my family, I have decided to pursue other passions in my life and spend a lot ...
    2 days ago
  • Five new Lockheed Martin Super Hercules aircraft to replace ageing fleet
    Defence Minister Ron Mark has announced that new Lockheed Martin Super Hercules aircraft would replace the outdated and costly 1960s Hercules fleet. The $1.521b project will include a flight simulator for staff training and other supporting infrastructure. "This fleet will ensure the Defence Force can continue to support New Zealand's ...
    2 days ago
  • Greens urge police to rule out armed police patrols following George Floyd’s death
    The Green Party is urging the New Zealand Police to rule out the use of Armed Response Teams, following their recent trial in communities around Aotearoa. ...
    2 days ago
  • NZ First fought for changes to “poorly-targeted” rent dispute policy
    New Zealand First leader Winston Peters has described Labour's original COVID-19 commercial rent dispute proposal as "poorly targeted". Justice Minister Andrew Little has announced a temporary law change to force commercial landlords and renters to consider COVID-19 in disputes over rent issues, almost two months after the Government first floated the idea.  But ...
    3 days ago
  • New Zealand First ensures commercial rent dispute clause fairly applied
    Rt Hon Winston Peters, Leader of New Zealand First New Zealand First acknowledges that some small businesses have been struggling to meet fixed costs due to the loss of revenue by COVID-19. We also know some businesses are at greater risk of insolvency when they cannot come to a reasonable ...
    3 days ago
  • New Zealand First disappointed that Section 70 spouses won’t get relief
    Rt Hon Winston Peters, Leader of New Zealand First New Zealand First is disappointed that the removal of the spousal deductions has had to be delayed by the Ministry fo Social Development, due to COVID19 workload pressures. “New Zealand First has always stood for fairness when it comes to superannuation ...
    5 days ago
  • Winston Peters receives petition demanding more protection for nurses
    Rt Hon Winston Peters, Leader of New Zealand First On the steps of Parliament today the Leader of New Zealand First, Rt Hon Winston Peters received a petition from registered nurse Anna Maria Coervers, requesting an amendment to the Protection for First Responders Bill which will ensure the legislation also include registered ...
    5 days ago
  • Week That Was: Getting our economy moving
    It's been a busy seven days as we start to rebuild New Zealand together. From delivering extra support for small businesses, to investing in our artists and arts organisations, to cutting red tape on home DIY projects, we're rolling out our plan to get the economy and New Zealand moving ...
    5 days ago
  • Winston Peters: If protests condoned ‘why are we not at level 1?’
    Deputy Prime Minister Winston Peters says alert level 2 restrictions have to be discussed during today's Cabinet meeting. Thousands gathered across the country, including at Parliament, yesterday for Black Lives Matter marches where social distancing and mass gathering rules were flouted. Mr Peters said the breaching of Alert Level 2 rules at ...
    5 days ago
  • Northland rail work to help create regional jobs
    Rt Hon Winston Peters, Deputy Prime Minister, Minister of State Owned Enterprises KiwiRail’s Northland rail upgrade steps up another gear today and will help Northland recover from the impacts of COVID-19, State Owned Enterprises Minister Winston Peters says. The Government is investing $204.5 million through the Provincial Growth Fund to ...
    6 days ago
  • Green Party statement on the death of George Floyd
    “Today and every day we stand in solidarity with George Floyd’s family, friends and community who feel pain and fear about his untimely death at the hands of Minneapolis police”, said Green Party Co-leader and Māori Development spokesperson Marama Davidson. ...
    6 days ago
  • Lake Brunner’s Mount Te Kinga to go Predator Free
    Fletcher Tabuteau, Parliamentary Under-Secretary for Regional Economic Development Hon Eugenie Sage, Minister of Conservation The West Coast forests of Mount Te Kinga at Kotuku Whakaoho/Lake Brunner are the latest predator free project to receive Government funding, announced Minister of Conservation Eugenie Sage and Under Secretary for Regional Economic Development Fletcher ...
    1 week ago
  • Green Party welcomes crucial financial support for creatives
    The Green Party says new government support for creatives and artists is a vital lifeline for a sector struggling to survive the COVID crisis. ...
    1 week ago
  • Strongest ever water reforms mean swimmable rivers within a generation
    The Green Party says major freshwater reforms announced today provide the strongest ever protections of our waterways, to help ensure the next generation can swim in the rivers of Aotearoa. ...
    1 week ago
  • Greens work to secure inquiry into Wild West student accommodation sector
    The Green Party has begun the process for a Select Committee inquiry into student accommodation, which has been exposed during COVID-19 as an under-regulated sector that straddles students with unfair debt. ...
    2 weeks ago
  • New Zealand joins global search for COVID-19 vaccine
    Rt Hon Winston Peters, Deputy Prime Minister, Minister of Foreign Affairs Hon Megan Woods, Minister of Research, Science and Innovation Hon Dr David Clark, Minister of Health Foreign Affairs Minister Winston Peters, Research, Science and Innovation Minister Megan Woods,  and Health Minister David Clark today announced a COVID-19 vaccine strategy, ...
    2 weeks ago
  • Budget 2020: Five things to know
    Budget 2020 is about rebuilding together, supporting jobs, getting business moving and the books back into the black. It’s an integral part of our COVID-19 economic response, and our plan to grow our economy and get New Zealand moving again. Here’s a quick look at the five top things you ...
    2 weeks ago
  • Green Party unveils its candidate list for the 2020 election
    The Green Party is pleased to reveal its candidate list for the upcoming election. With a mix of familiar faces and fresh new talent, this exceptional group of candidates are ready to lead the Greens back into Government. ...
    2 weeks ago
  • Coalition Government approves essential upgrades on Ōhakea Air Base
    The Coalition Government has approved $206 million in essential upgrades at Ōhakea Air Base.  Defence Minister Ron Mark said the money would be spent on improving old infrastructure. He said safety issues would be addressed, as well as upgrades to taxiways, accommodation and fresh, storm and waste water systems. "This ...
    2 weeks ago
  • Attributable to the Rt Hon Winston Peters
    Rt Hon Winston Peters, Leader of New Zealand First “I am not persisting with this case just for myself, but for all people who have had their privacy breached. Privacy of information is a cornerstone of our country’s democracy. Without it our society truly faces a bleak future. We now ...
    3 weeks ago

  • Great Walks bookings open next week
    This summer presents a great opportunity for New Zealanders to get out into nature with bookings on Great Walks for 2020/21 set to open next week, says Minister of Conservation Eugenie Sage.  Bookings for the Great Walks will open between 9 and 11 June, excluding Milford and Routeburn tracks which ...
    BeehiveBy beehive.govt.nz
    2 days ago
  • Ministerial Diary April 2020
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    2 days ago
  • Govt extends support schemes for businesses
    Extra 40,000 businesses to be eligible for wage subsidy extension Small business cashflow support application period extended The Government is today announcing further support for businesses that continue to be affected by the global COVID-19 pandemic, as the broader economy becomes one of the most open in the world following ...
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    2 days ago
  • Five new Super Hercules to join Air Force fleet
    The Coalition Government has confirmed five Lockheed Martin C-130J-30 Super Hercules transport aircraft will be purchased to replace the existing fleet, Defence Minister Ron Mark announced today.  “Last year, Cabinet selected these aircraft as the preferred option to replace the current Hercules fleet. Procurement of the Super Hercules has been ...
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    2 days ago
  • New public housing sets standard for future
    New public housing that will save tenants money in energy bills, and provide warmer, healthier and more comfortable homes, is setting the standard for the Government’s future public housing programme, Housing Minister Megan Woods said. Dr Woods opened the new Kāinga Ora – Homes and Communities complex, which has a ...
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    2 days ago
  • Wairarapa Moana seeks international recognition as vital wetland
    The Minister of Conservation Eugenie Sage is celebrating World Environment Day with an announcement of a major step towards Wairarapa Moana being recognised as an internationally significant wetland. “Wairarapa Moana is an ecosystem of 10,000 hectares of wetland and open water that provides a home for indigenous fish, birds and ...
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    2 days ago
  • First Police wing to complete training post lockdown
    A new-look Police graduation ceremony to take account of COVID19 health rules has marked the completion of training for 57 new constables. Police Minister Stuart Nash attended this afternoon's ceremony, where officers of Recruit Wing 337 were formally sworn in at the Royal New Zealand Police College without the normal support of ...
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    3 days ago
  • Government makes further inroads on predatory lenders
    Mobile traders and truck shops must adhere to responsible lending requirements Interest rate cap on high-cost loans Lenders prohibited from offering further credit to an applicant who has taken two high-cost loans in the past 90 days The Minister of Commerce and Consumer Affairs, Kris Faafoi, has signalled an end ...
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    3 days ago
  • New survey shows wage subsidy a “lifeline” for businesses, saved jobs
    94% of firms say wage subsidy had positive impact on cashflow 62% of firms say support helped to manage non-wage costs like rent A survey of business that have received the Government’s wage subsidy show it has played a significant role in saving jobs, and freed up cash flow to ...
    BeehiveBy beehive.govt.nz
    3 days ago
  • Tax changes support economic recovery
    New legislation introduced to Parliament today will support growth and assist businesses on the road to economic recovery, said Revenue Minister Stuart Nash. “The Taxation (Annual Rates for 2020-21, Feasibility Expenditure, and Remedial Matters) Bill proposes that businesses can get tax deductions for ‘feasibility expenditure’ on new investments,” said Mr ...
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    3 days ago
  • $4.6 million financial relief for professional sports
    Sport and Recreation Minister Grant Robertson has welcomed the first release of funds from the $265 million Sport Recovery Package announced as part of Budget 2020. Sport NZ has announced that $4.6 million in funding will go to the Wellington Phoenix, NZ Warriors, Super Rugby teams and the ANZ Premiership ...
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    3 days ago
  • Critical support for strategic tourism assets
    An iconic New Zealand tourism attraction and the country’s 31 Regional Tourism Organisations are the first recipients of support from the $400 million Tourism Sector Recovery Plan, to help position the sector for recovery from COVID-19, Tourism Minister Kelvin Davis announced today. The plan includes a Strategic Tourism Assets Protection ...
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    3 days ago
  • Supporting Kiwi businesses to resolve commercial rent disputes
    The Government will legislate to ensure businesses that suffered as a result of the COVID-19 response will get help to resolve disputes over commercial rent issues, Justice Minister Andrew Little announced today. A temporary amendment to the Property Law Act will insert a clause in commercial leases requiring a fair ...
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    3 days ago
  • Prompt payments to SMEs even more urgent
    The Minister for Small Business says new data from Xero highlights the urgency of prompt payment practices to small and medium enterprises as we move into economic recovery. Last month Government ministers wrote to significant private enterprises and the banking industry to request they join efforts by government agencies to ...
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    4 days ago
  • Free period products in schools to combat poverty
    Young people in Waikato will be the first to have free access to period products in schools in another step to support children and young people in poverty,” Prime Minister Jacinda Ardern said.  During term 3, the Ministry of Education will begin providing free period products to schools following the ...
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    4 days ago
  • Response to charges in New Plymouth
    The Minister of Police Stuart Nash has issued the following statement in response to charges filed against three Police officers this morning in the New Plymouth District Court. “Any incident involving a loss of life in Police custody is taken very seriously. The charges today reflect the gravity of the ...
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    4 days ago
  • Govt boosts innovation, R&D for economic rebuild
    $196 million for Crown Research Institutes $150 million for R&D loan scheme $33 million for Māori research and development opportunities $12 million for the Nationally Significant Collections and Databases $10 million to help maintain in-house capability at Callaghan Innovation New Zealand’s entrepreneurs, innovators and crown researchers will benefit from a ...
    BeehiveBy beehive.govt.nz
    4 days ago
  • Temporary changes to NCEA and University Entrance this year
    Further temporary changes to NCEA and University Entrance (UE) will support senior secondary school students whose teaching and learning have been disrupted by COVID-19. “The wellbeing of students and teachers is a priority. As we are all aware, COVID-19 has created massive disruption to the school system, and the Government ...
    BeehiveBy beehive.govt.nz
    4 days ago
  • Extended terms for the directors of the Racing Industry Transition Agency
    Minister for Racing Winston Peters today announced that the terms for the directors of the Racing Industry Transition Agency (RITA) have been extended to 30 June 2021. Due to the COVID-19 crisis the transition period has been extended to ensure that the Racing Industry Bill can complete its progress through ...
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    4 days ago
  • Healthy Homes Standards statement of compliance deadline extended
    The deadline for landlords to include detailed information in their tenancy agreements about how their property meets the Healthy Homes Standards, so tenants can see the home they are renting is compliant, has been extended from 1 July 2020 to 1 December 2020.  The Healthy Homes Standards became law on 1 July 2019. The Standards are ...
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    5 days ago
  • Criminal Cases Review Commission board appointments announced
    Justice Minister Andrew Little today announced details of further appointments to the Criminal Cases Review Commission. “I am pleased to announce Paula Rose QSO OStJ as Deputy Chief Commissioner for a term of five years commencing on 15 June 2020,” said Andrew Little. “I am also pleased to announce the ...
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    5 days ago
  • Release of initial list of supported training to aid COVID-19 recovery
    The Targeted Training and Apprenticeships Fund (TTAF) will pay costs of learners of all ages to undertake vocational education and training The fund will target support for areas of study and training that will give learners better employment prospects as New Zealand recovers from COVID-19 Apprentices working in all industries ...
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    5 days ago
  • Emission trading reforms another step to meeting climate targets
    The Emissions Trading Scheme (ETS) will finally start to cut New Zealand’s greenhouse gas pollution as it was originally intended to, because of changes announced today by the Minister for Climate Change, James Shaw. The changes include a limit on the total emissions allowed within the ETS, rules to ensure ...
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    5 days ago
  • Queen’s Birthday Honours highlights Pacific leadership capability in Aotearoa
    Minister for Pacific Peoples Aupito William Sio says the Queen’s Birthday 2020 Honours List provides an abundance of examples that Pacific people’s leadership capability is unquestionable in Aotearoa. “The work and the individuals we acknowledge this year highlights the kind of visionary examples and dedicated community leadership that we need ...
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    6 days ago
  • Govt backing horticulture to succeed
    The Government is backing a new $27 million project aimed at boosting sustainable horticulture production and New Zealand’s COVID-19 recovery efforts, says Agriculture Minister Damien O’Connor. “Our horticulture sector has long been one of New Zealand’s export star performers, contributing around $6 billion a year to our economy. During and ...
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    6 days ago
  • Applications open for forestry scholarships
    Applications have opened for 2021 Ngā Karahipi Uru Rākau – Forestry Scholarships, which will support more Māori and women to pursue careers in forestry science, says Forestry Minister Shane Jones. “I’m delighted Te Uru Rākau is offering Ngā Karahipi Uru Rākau – Forestry Scholarships for the third year running. These ...
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    6 days ago
  • Excellent service to nature recognised
    The Queen’s Birthday 2020 Honours List once again highlights the dedication by many to looking after our native plants and wildlife, including incredible work to restore the populations of critically endangered birds says Minister of Conservation Eugenie Sage. Anne Richardson of Hororata has been made an Officer of the New ...
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    7 days ago
  • Wetlands and waterways gain from 1BT funding
    The Government will invest $10 million from the One Billion Trees Fund for large-scale planting to provide jobs in communities and improve the environment, Agriculture Minister Damien O’Connor and Forestry Minister Shane Jones have announced. New, more flexible funding criteria for applications will help up to 10 catchment groups plant ...
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    1 week ago
  • New fund for women now open
    Organisations that support women are invited to apply to a new $1,000,000 fund as part of the Government’s COVID-19 response. “We know women, and organisations that support women, have been affected by COVID-19. This new money will ensure funding for groups that support women and women’s rights,” said Minister for ...
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    1 week ago
  • Govt supports King Country farmers to lift freshwater quality
    Healthier waterways are front and centre in a new project involving more than 300 King Country sheep, beef and dairy farmers. The Government is investing $844,000 in King Country River Care, a group that helps farmers to lift freshwater quality and farming practice, Agriculture Minister Damien O’Connor announced today. “Yesterday ...
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    1 week ago
  • Libraries to help with jobs and community recovery
    A major funding package for libraries will allow them to play a far greater role in supporting their communities and people seeking jobs as part of the economic recovery from COVID-19. “Budget 2020 contains over $60 million of funding to protect library services and to protect jobs,” says Internal Affairs ...
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    1 week ago
  • Support for arts and music sector recovery
    A jobseekers programme for the creative sector and four new funds have been set up by the Government to help our arts and music industry recover from the blow of COVID-19. Thousands of jobs will be supported through today’s $175 million package in a crucial economic boost to support the ...
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    1 week ago
  • Legislative changes to support the wellbeing of veterans and their families
    Minister for Veterans Ron Mark has welcomed the First Reading of a Bill that will make legislative changes to further improve the veterans’ support system.  The Veterans’ Support Amendment Bill No 2, which will amend the Veterans’ Support Act 2014, passed First Reading today. The bill addresses a number of ...
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    1 week ago
  • Christ Church Cathedral – Order in Council
    Views sought on Order in Council to help fast track the reinstatement of the Christ Church Cathedral  The Associate Minister for Greater Christchurch Regeneration, Hon Poto Williams, will be seeking public written comment, following Cabinet approving the drafting of an Order in Council aimed at fast-tracking the reinstatement of the ...
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    1 week ago
  • New Zealanders’ human rights better protected in new Bill
    The law setting out New Zealanders’ basic civil and human rights is today one step towards being strengthened following the first reading of a Bill that requires Parliament to take action if a court says a statute undermines those rights. At present, a senior court can issue a ‘declaration of ...
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    1 week ago
  • Deep concern at Hong Kong national security legislation
    Foreign Affairs Minister Winston Peters today reiterated the deep concern of the New Zealand Government following confirmation by China’s National People’s Congress of national security legislation relating to Hong Kong. “New Zealand shares the international community’s significant and long-standing stake in Hong Kong’s prosperity and stability,” Mr Peters said. “New Zealand ...
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    1 week ago
  • Government invests in New Zealand’s cultural recovery
    Thousands of artists and creatives at hundreds of cultural and heritage organisations have been given much-needed support to recover from the impact of COVID-19, Prime Minister and Minister for Arts, Culture and Heritage Jacinda Ardern announced today. “The cultural sector was amongst the worst hit by the global pandemic,” Jacinda ...
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    1 week ago
  • Better protection for New Zealand assets during COVID-19 crisis
    Key New Zealand assets will be better protected from being sold to overseas owners in a way contrary to the national interest, with the passage of the Overseas Investment (Urgent Measures) Bill. The Bill, which passed its third reading in Parliament today, also cuts unnecessary red tape to help attract ...
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    1 week ago
  • Cleaning up our rivers and lakes
    Setting higher health standards at swimming spots Requiring urban waterways to be cleaned up and new protections for urban streams Putting controls on higher-risk farm practices such as winter grazing and feed lots Setting stricter controls on nitrogen pollution and new bottom lines on other measures of waterway health Ensuring ...
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    1 week ago
  • Record year for diversity on Govt boards
    The Government is on the verge of reaching its target of state sector boards and committees made up of at least 50 percent women, says Minister for Women Julie Anne Genter and Minister for Ethnic Communities Jenny Salesa. For the first time, the Government stocktake measures the number of Māori, ...
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    1 week ago