Daily review 18/02/2022

19 comments on “Daily review 18/02/2022 ”

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1. Robert Guyton 1

   18 February 2022 at 8:05 pm

   From Stuff (on sitting at the table with evil b*stards)

   "Historians understand that any “movement” that welcomes fascists or the far Right eventually becomes defined by that mistake. As the apocryphal goes “if there’s a Nazi at the table and 10 other people are sitting there talking to him, you got a table with 11 Nazis”.

   This isn’t to suggest that everyone on Parliament’s lawn are neo-Nazis. They aren’t. Some of them are just scared. Others are just terribly confused. Maybe one or two are just along for the ride.

   But if they won’t collectively eject the far Right elements among them – well, police will have to do it for them."

   https://www.stuff.co.nz/national/300520915/the-real-dangers-lurking-in-the-freedom-convoy-protests
   • McFlock 1.1

     18 February 2022 at 8:18 pm

     God I wish I could write that well when angry.
   • weka 1.2

     18 February 2022 at 8:20 pm

     we don't know how many people at the protest understand who Arps, or Action Zealandia are. If you are sitting at the table with a Nazi but don't know they are a Nazi, are you still a Nazi?

     The far right stuff is more compelling.

     I'm looking for evidence of Nazis on the ground at the Wellington protest, and I'm struggling to find any. Links appreciated.
     • mac1 1.2.1

       18 February 2022 at 8:45 pm

       Believe it because it's true, I gave a short lift to a Nazi in my car.

       He'd just been released from police custody where he had been for three days after being bailed by the court.

       He was keen to get to his destination and was hurrying along when I noticed his anxiety and stopped for him.

       He was friendly, unmasked, bearded, in shorts, and called me "Sir".

       When I dropped him off, his handshake was firm and his thanks genuine.

       Two days later I work out he was a neo-nazi, violence threatening, badgering, racist. Photos confirmed who he was. I did not know any of his background when I picked him up, until later. He was a hitchhiker.

       The lesson I take from this encounter is the lesson I learned from a historical work on the kinds of people who were Nazis and the perpetrators of that massive evil epoque.

       They were ordinary people. The book was about the banality of evil.

       This hitchhiker seemed an ordinary man, in a hurry and determined to reach where he wanted to be………. Wellington.
       • weka 1.2.1.1

         18 February 2022 at 9:12 pm

         not really following that. You picked up someone on the way to the protest who you later realised was a nazi? Or was this after the protest? What are the photos of that you recognised him from?

         I already know that Nazis look like other people. If they were obvious, I wouldn't be having a hard time finding evidence.
         • mac1 1.2.1.1.1

           18 February 2022 at 10:44 pm

           My story is that I was deceived, because he was a normal man, seemingly. But his views are those of a neo-nazi. That is what the media and his record with the justice system say he is.

           The photos are from the media. He is a former inmate, jailed for crimes committed after the Christchurch mosque attack and was by all accounts at the Wellington protest and then back in Christchurch.

           But he is neo-nazi. And was at those venues.

           My other and personal point is that of his seeming politeness, charm and sense of humour.

           I have known, especially during my time at University racists who believed in 'nigger smell", I have heard members of the British Empire Loyalists talk about white people as "Christiandom's purer form of man" and heard the more casual racism of ordinary Kiwis as well as those from Southern Africa.

           Yet amongst those who they would call their own they can seem ordinary.

           The beast that is racism, misogyny, bigotry in all its forms is banal, ordinary, seemingly harmless. Until it is unmasked.

           I met another man here who seemed a charming older American man, untidy but pleasant- until I checked him about his Make Ardern Go Away poster on his car. Then he became a different person- conspiracy believing, and threatening violence with guns to any he thought would force him to vaccinate, including the police, which is what he thought, months before this Wellington protest, was likely to happen. Unfortunately, police cannot identify him sufficiently.

           These accounts are true. They are my experience. I am still trying to deal with the scope of the issues that meeting them raises in terms of where our society has moved, with some of our fellows.
           • weka 1.2.1.1.1.1

             18 February 2022 at 10:53 pm

             Ok, so either this is a well known Nazi who didn't get as far as Wellington, or it's someone else who did. Let's say it's the latter. We now have one first hand account of someone who probably was there.

             Can you not see how insubstantial this is compared to the left saying there are Nazis there all the time influencing what happens? I'm not minimising the seriousness of the situation, I'm saying that there's enough to deal with with what we do know (have evidence for).
             • weka …

               18 February 2022 at 10:57 pm

               btw, re the man who was didn't make it to Wellington, in the few days after the shootings, there was a group of people on twitter who tracked him down online, outed his business vans with Nazi signage on them, and reported him. I followed that in real time. He was later arrested and charged and sent to prison.

               I also that week saw footage posted by an American woman that appeared to be in the Mosque shortly after the shooting.

               So I get how shocking it is. And I don't think it's nothing or unimportant. I think it's a key part of what is happening in Wellington. But I think it's being misrepresented as well.
               • mac1 …

                 18 February 2022 at 11:18 pm

                 You seem to be right. My man did not make it to Wellington (but back to Picton), as he was bailed on the condition he did not go there; but I thought I had read, but erroneously, that he was seen there.
     • aj 1.2.2

       18 February 2022 at 9:54 pm

       It's really like groundswell on steroids. Did I read somewhere a few days ago the groundswell organisers had cancelled their future plans? I suspect a fair few of the people at this current protest would have been allied with groundswell.
     • James Thrace 1.2.3

       18 February 2022 at 9:57 pm

       Honestly Weka,

       I'm writing this out of frustration. There are times where I support you wholeheartedly such as over the trans debate and the erasure of women from that debate.

       Then there are times like this where your need for links to prove nazi-ism at the occupation of Parliament Grounds, or indeed, links to prove everything else that's ever been said in the history of the world borders on frustration.

       I appreciate that sometimes, just sometimes, there is a need to provide a link to back up a claim, an assertion, or an allegation. However, there is plenty that is easily available with a quick google search.

       It's not to disrespect your role as a moderator of this site, but the continual "link please" request does get jarring to read.

       The Swastika on the back of the Seddon statue was something done in the first days of the occupation. It's since been cleaned off (badly). There is still an element of unsavoury elements at the occupation. The fact that they claim not to have a leader, and simultaneously, put out communications, for example to the media claiming 'we have a media minder being appointed' (it's on twitter) means that this is still an inchoate rabble incapable of leadership.

       The fact the police claim to be in dialogue with 'influencers' and not 'leaders' is telling in itself. Influencers in this inchoate crowd change daily depending on who is there. Chantelle Baker no longer has the sway she once did. This is now a melting pot where the kuia running the kitchen hold as much influence as the hi vis vest directing people where to erect their tents. There is no influencer capable of talking with the police to wind this back.

       But back to my point, could you please dial back this incessant need for links and proof and veracity? Some claims might be referring to things that happened a few days ago, but as someone who is impacted by the occupation of parliament, can maybe, just maybe, the word of people who have to deal with this shit show of an occupation that the police have embarrassingly just washed their hands off, be enough for you to accept?
       • weka 1.2.3.1

         18 February 2022 at 10:20 pm

         Who painted the swastika on the monument? Was it a Nazi, or was it a protestor calling Ardern a Nazi? I did a google image and a twitter image search earlier, and all the photos I found were the latter. I think there are definitely alt right there, we know that AZ were filming, we know Arps tried to get there, we know the connections of CounterSpin. But that's not the same as saying that there are Nazis in the protest over the whole time and influencing what is happening. And that the hippies and truckies know they are.

         I'm not asking for evidence above because I think it's not true, I'm asking for evidence because I am trying to write a post and I can't find it. But also, if it's as common as people are saying, then it should be obvious. And it's just not.
         • Cricklewood 1.2.3.1.1

           19 February 2022 at 8:20 pm

           I think they've been turfed out tbh, its strictly no drugs no alcohol no cigarettes, lots of security appointed from amongst the group. They're overwhelmingly Maori and making sure no one drops litter let alone do something really dumb. There are so many kids here now 100s of them.

           I suspect its evolved alot in the last few days.
2. Joe900 2

   18 February 2022 at 8:17 pm

   Pandemics disable people.

   "Consider the ‘mother of all pandemics’ — the 1918 Spanish influenza outbreak. Even in the 1920s, scientists understood that this flu had neurological and other effects. The most notorious and debated of those — still — is the overlapping pandemic of encephalitis lethargica (EL) or ‘sleepy sickness’. Eighty per cent of EL survivors went on to develop a Parkinson’s-like disease2. According to cell biologist Richard Smeyne at the Jefferson Hospital for Neuroscience in Philadelphia, Pennsylvania, it has never been proved biologically that flu caused both EL and this post-encephalitic parkinsonism — at least not in the sense of catching the virus in flagrante in the brain tissue of people who had died. Yet the statistical case for it seems strong2."

   https://www.nature.com/articles/d41586-022-00414-x
   • weka 2.1

     18 February 2022 at 8:26 pm

     Good article.

     Yet it continues to be overlooked by decision makers, who still present the costs and benefits of COVID-19 containment in terms of data on cases, hospitalizations and deaths alone. This means that in many countries, a burden of future disability is being created that could have been prevented, or reduced.

     This alone is reason that the borders shouldn't open until we know what omicron does long term. Same with mandates, and so much else. I don't recall hearing the government talk about long covid other than occasionally as an aside.
3. Black Cat Strikes 3

   18 February 2022 at 10:39 pm

   If we needed any more proof of the police's gross incompetence at this time:

   https://www.stuff.co.nz/national/127826689/prisoner-escapes-in-van-from-rimutaka-prison-may-be-heading-to-wellington-protest
   • Puckish Rogue 3.1

     18 February 2022 at 11:20 pm

     Thats nothing to do with the police and everything to do with Corrections.
     • McFlock 3.1.1

       18 February 2022 at 11:59 pm

       Thanks for the… correction 👿
4. Anke 4

   18 February 2022 at 10:41 pm

   https://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/analysis-why-ignoring-parliament-protesters-is-dangerous-and-will-only-make-it-worse/SMGYQKBFZY5QMXOIOQ2NZBMN3U/

   I agree with this headline in the Herald (article by David Fisher). Unfortunately I don’t have a Herald subscription.

   anyone who does throw some light on what he says?

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