Gaza – not acceptable!

100 comments on “Gaza – not acceptable! ”

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1. lprent 1

   19 November 2012 at 10:13 am

   I have been somewhat distracted

   Damn. Putting troops into the Gaza urban area would be like the final act of the Warsaw Ghetto in 1943. What is it with the Israelis? They created this problem and have rsolutely failed to deal with it in a civilized manner.
   • travellerev 1.1

     19 November 2012 at 10:34 am

     Here is why and what is even more worrying is the fact that the killed Hamas leader was in peace negotiations with factions within Israel who want peace with Palestinians
   • aerobubble 1.2

     19 November 2012 at 2:38 pm

     Widening the Syria Civil War, Hamas are. Hamas is set to loss a land corridor to Iran.

     The threat is that one day, all the Arabs, Mulsim, Christian, secular, might all just wakeup and decide what the real destablizer is in the region. Now if they could mount an attack on Israel in peace time, then its quite obvious they need to set the region alight before they then turn their guns on Israel.

     Russis, China, loath Israel, the US and Eu failure to support a quick turnover of the Syrian war could lead to Israel losing its manipulation of the region to keep its neighbors unstables and so in control.

     The other view would be that Eqypt is now in a position to actually offer peace in Gaza, seeing its now headed by a President from the muslim brotherhood.
     • Populuxe1 1.2.1

       19 November 2012 at 5:21 pm

       I’m not sure what you mean? What land corridor? Egypt is in the way and predominantly Sunni – the Palestinian territories are no where fucking near! Smuggling tunnels under the Philadelphi Route hardly constitute a major corridor – more like a pretty fragile trail. I smell the dangerous whiff of Islamophobia.
       • aerobubble 1.2.1.1

         21 November 2012 at 10:26 am

         Syria changes leadership, throws out the Iran allied government it could get very hard for…
2. higherstandard 2

   19 November 2012 at 10:33 am

   If you keep poking a dog with a stick and it will turn around and bite you sooner or later.
   • karol 2.1

     19 November 2012 at 10:36 am

     Are you comparing Israel to an animal without reasoning powers?
     • higherstandard 2.1.1

       19 November 2012 at 11:06 am

       I’m making a comment on human nature being not too different from that of other animals and the futility of trying to gain any type of long term peace in the middle east via ongoing acts of aggression whether they be state vs state of intrastate factional fighting.

       I suspect the man/woman in the street wishes their respective leaders and those of their leaders enemies would fuck off and let them get on with leading their lives.
       • Populuxe1 2.1.1.1

         19 November 2012 at 11:41 am

         Mind you, Bibi and his ultra-orthodox Chassid supporters have never really shown much evidence of reasoning powers at the best of times.
   • travellerev 2.2

     19 November 2012 at 10:37 am

     Ummmm
   • Professor Longhair 2.3

     19 November 2012 at 10:54 am

     That was an ignorant, even moronic comment.

     You are Leighton Smith and I claim my five pounds.
     • travellerev 2.3.1

       19 November 2012 at 12:28 pm

       I don’t even know who he is so no you can’t claim anything. And maybe you should have a look at the page I linked too before you make what I would describe as a moronic comment
       • karol 2.3.1.1

         19 November 2012 at 12:38 pm

         ev, I thought the prof was responding to higherstandard, not you.
         • travellerev 2.3.1.1.1

           19 November 2012 at 4:53 pm

           If you say so 🙂
           • Professor Longhair 2.3.1.1.1.1

             20 November 2012 at 8:35 am

             I say so too. Get off your high horse, now.
             • travellerev …

               20 November 2012 at 9:02 am

               🙄
   • Polish Pride 2.4

     19 November 2012 at 1:53 pm

     This is more a case of someone poking a dog with a stick continuously until the dog reacts then visciously beating the dog when it does. Then when thats finished and the dog is cowering, the person goes back to poking it with a stick.
     Take a closer look at what Israel has been doing to palestinians and their land near settlements it is shocking, criminal and against any value that would be a part of humanity.
     • aerobubble 2.4.1

       19 November 2012 at 2:44 pm

       Yes, Israel wants Land and have done away with the rule of law for the former property owners.

       If you are a member of any group, do you have the right, money, military to take land from others in the 21st?

       Religion once again use to justify heinous acts by both sides on each other and their own people.
3. thomas 3

   19 November 2012 at 10:54 am

   This is clearly an unequal conflict as you point out, yet even if it was an equal conflict it would not be justifiable from either side. I too condemn the violent acts of both sides. What is unequal is the distribution of wealth, resources and freedom between the Israelis and Palestinians – this is the root cause of the problem. But the responsibility does not just lie with Israel – it lies with the US, the UK and all the other powers that support them…
   • Polish Pride 3.1

     19 November 2012 at 1:54 pm

     +1 couldn’t have said it better
     • aerobubble 3.1.1

       19 November 2012 at 2:51 pm

       I don’t disagree, I just think you should add in the other players. Iran, Saudi Arabia, Russia, China, Turkey, Eqypt, and then stir.

       Surely the question comes down to what global rights to the Jewish refugees have to live freely in the historical lands. How can people live without access to the land, and so to what extent the existing peoples need to accommodate them, and what is going too far.

       Israel has be able to utilize its allies, and play its enemies, to settle in Palestine. But lets not
       for a moment imagine that Iran does not like having the Israeli whipping boy to fuel its own
       power elites hold on Iran.
4. PlanetOrphan 4

   19 November 2012 at 10:56 am

   Gotta agree with you Karol great post.

   The below article about water was a real eye opener, Israel are systematically eradicating the people of Gaza and have been for a long time.

   It’s genocide no other term will describe it.

   http://www.ifamericansknew.org/cur_sit/water.html
5. infused 5

   19 November 2012 at 11:42 am

   Hamas are using them as meat shields. Blame Hamas. Do some research first next time as well.
   • karol 5.1

     19 November 2012 at 11:52 am

     infused, I know enough background to have come across that accusation before, and know it has been initiated by Israel and is dutifully reported by the pro-Israeli media.  

     Israel keep people in Gaza, enclosed in a small living space, in inhumane conditions.  They have limited choices. 
     • Populuxe1 5.1.1

       19 November 2012 at 12:47 pm

       The argument that “They have limited choices” justifies Hamas callously treating Palestinian civilians as expendable is so utterly without merit that I can’t even believe that I have to respond to it.
       Hamas know exactly what Israel’s response will be to their pissy little rockets – mass overkill. Hamas actually profit from Israel’s blockade because Hamas controls the tunnels and therefore has a monopoly on the black market.
       Hamas are no more the friend of the Palestinian people than the right-wing hawks in the Knesset are and you should be ASHAMED for suggesting otherwise.
     • Gosman 5.1.2

       19 November 2012 at 1:00 pm

       Egypt and Israel restrict access to the Gaza strip so it isn’t purely the Israelis doing this. On top of this is the fact that you would hardly expect the Israelis to allow unrestricted access by people from Gaza to Israel proper.

       I am curious why the left reserve a special distaste for anything that Israel does. I suspect it is not just a concern for human rights violations as there are much worse examples of attrocities against civilians in a multitude of other places. I think it has more to do with anti-American attitudes many on the left share and focusing on Israel is really focusing on the US.
       • lprent 5.1.2.1

         19 November 2012 at 1:04 pm

         In my case I find it distasteful for exactly the same reasons that I found the old apartheid ‘democracy’ in South Africa distasteful or the ethnic cleansing ‘democracy’ of the Serbs and Croations distasteful or the ‘democracy’ of the 1950’s Alabama.

         Perhaps you defend them still?
         • Gosman 5.1.2.1.1

           19 November 2012 at 1:54 pm

           Why would I defend them?

           Funny you mention the former Yugoslavia. I remember discussing the situation there in the early 1990’s with members of some hard left Socialist group at Vic Uni.

           Their take on the topic was that the break up was engineered by the evil capitalists intent on destroying the Socialist paradise that existed there. They were very anti any sort of western intervention in trying to stop the actions of the Yugoslav/Serb army.

           In my mind it is very similar to how some leftists react now to situations in places like Libya and Syria. It is as if they see Capitalist bogeymen everywhere and ‘proper’ Socialists can do no wrong.
           • Polish Pride 5.1.2.1.1.1

             19 November 2012 at 2:01 pm

             When 90% of normal people around the world do not want war yet war has become a trillion dollar industry under Capitalism.. then you can expect a lot more war. This unfortunately is a failing of capitalism and the justification given for any war deserves intense scrutiny. After all who really benefits other than those with shares in war profiteering companies
             • Gosman …

               19 November 2012 at 2:14 pm

               This would hold true if those nations in the West with the biggest defence contractors were the biggest suppliers to the conflict zones. I would suggest this is not the case. As far as I am aware most conflict areas rely heavily on Russian and Chinese weapons. Yet it is the West that seems to get the blame for encouraging or fermenting the conflicts in the first place. Why would Western nations encourage conflicts if other nations reap the benfit from any increased military spending as a result?
               • Polish Pride …

                 19 November 2012 at 2:21 pm

                 I don’t think Israels missiles and artilliary have ‘made in China’ stamped on them Gos
                 • Gosman …

                   19 November 2012 at 2:29 pm

                   Israeli missiles and artillery are more likely manufactured in Israel rather than in any other Western nation.

                   I also think it is a bit of a push to argue that the conflict in Gaza is as a result of pressure put on the protagonists by Capitalist arms makers. I doubt very much Hamas is being heavily influenced in this manner and they have been actively firing missiles into Israel.
                   • Polish Pride …

                     19 November 2012 at 2:42 pm

                     perhaps and then if so the question becomes who owns the missile factories – Israel…..or private companies…
                   • Gosman …

                     19 November 2012 at 2:52 pm

                     I’d suggest it is irrelevant who owns the missile producing companies. Obviously you feel as though the people who do stoke demand for their product. I have yet to see hard evidence for this in relation to places like Israel. I think the Israeli government has far greater motivations to carry out military actions from other sources than being influenced by lobbying by private military suppliers.

                     Western military suppliers have not been heavily involved in many of the conflicts that have occured in the past decade outside the two major ones (Afghanistan and Iraq) and possibly Israel/Palestine. One of the major conflicts of the past twenty years was in the Democratic Republic of Congo for example and that involved a large number of combatants supplied with Russian or Chinese weapons. I didn’t see anyone argue that the Chinese and Russians were behind that conflict though.
                   • Bastables …

                     19 November 2012 at 11:56 pm

                     Self Propelled artillery IDF
                     600 M109 USA
                     36 M110 USA
                     70 M107 USA

                     Towed artillery IDF
                     300 M71 Israel
                     50 M68 Israel

                     USA Munitions IDF
                     CBU-58 cluster bomb
                     Mk-20 Rockeye cluster bomb
                     Mark 84 bomb
                     GBU-39 Small Diameter Bomb
                     AGM-65 Maverick air-to-surface missile
                     AGM-45 Shrike air-to-surface anti-radiation missile
                     AGM-78 Standard ARM air-to-surface anti-radiation missile
                     AGM-114 Hellfire air-to-surface anti-tank missile
                     AGM-62 Walleye glide bomb
                     AIM-120 AMRAAM air-to-air missile
                     AGM-65 Maverick air-to-ground missile
                     AIM-9 Sidewinder heat seeking air-to-air missile
                     MIM-72 Chaparral surface-to-air missile
                     MIM-104 Patriot surface-to-air missile
                     MIM-23 Hawk surface-to-air missile

                     Israel Munitions IDF
                     PB500A1 laser-guided hard-target penetration bomb
                     M-85 cluster bomb
                     MPR-500 penetration bomb
                     Shafrir missile
                     Python air-to-air missile
                     Delilah cruise missile
                     Iron Dome anti-rocket and mortar defense missile
                     Jericho I short-range ballistic missile
                     Jericho II intermediate range ballistic missile
                     Jericho III intercontinental ballistic missile
                     AGM-142 Have Nap air-to-surface missile
                     Arrow anti-ballistic missile

                     “more likely manufactured in Israel” Must have some different meaning for you other than reality Gosling.
   • Professor Longhair 5.2

     19 November 2012 at 11:57 am

     Something calling itself “infused” has the temerity to urge others to do what it clearly has never done: “Do some research first next time as well.”

     Could lprent or someone please check whether this fool is actually some vile excrescence from Radio Live, NewstalkZB, Radio Rhema, or the Political Studies department at Auckland University?
     • OneTrack 5.2.1

       19 November 2012 at 7:13 pm

       Are you on drugs?
       • Professor Longhair 5.2.1.1

         20 November 2012 at 8:27 am

         That’s exactly the kind of intelligent response I would have expected from you.
   • lprent 5.3

     19 November 2012 at 12:01 pm

     Do you mean to say that because Hamas are a political organisation in one of the most heavily urbanised areas in the world which is full of displaced and stateless people without an ability to move out of their ghetto, that they are to blame for that?

     If you are wanting to look like an idiot who doesn’t think, you have clearly succeeded. Talk about blaming the victims. The Israeli’s created the Gaza strip decades ago. They have refused to fix the problem ever since.
     • travellerev 5.3.1

       19 November 2012 at 12:29 pm

       Way to go Iprent!
       • lprent 5.3.1.1

         19 November 2012 at 12:49 pm

         I thought I made my views quite clear in 2009. Umm yes here we go

         http://thestandard.org.nz/israel-a-failed-democracy/
         • travellerev 5.3.1.1.1

           20 November 2012 at 7:31 am

           Good for you, I just thought it was great we actually agree on something of great importance here.
           • lprent 5.3.1.1.1.1

             20 November 2012 at 8:56 am

             🙂 with a world of topics to choose from, it was bound to happen. But I am sure that there were other things as well…
   • rosy 5.4

     19 November 2012 at 12:16 pm

     the 11 killed that Karol reported were the household of an official the Israelis wanted to assassinated. The israelis chose to fire a missile into his his home, the family were not human sheilds. And yet the israelis call this tactic a ‘surgical strike. It also appears families are being moved out but not all have places to go.
     http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2012/nov/18/gaza-israel-children-killed-air-strike

     You might also research what SkyNews thinks of the missile attack on their building as well, and then decide if you believe the surgical strikes and concern for civilians lines of the IDF.
   • Daveosaurus 5.5

     19 November 2012 at 5:39 pm

     “Meat shields” …? What a disgusting way to refer to the toddlers that the Israeli Army murdered solely for the “crime” of having been born in Gaza.
6. shorts 6

   19 November 2012 at 11:45 am

   what is gaza but a giant concentration camp… Israel and its backers shame on you all!
7. Jimmie 7

   19 November 2012 at 11:54 am

   Hmmm so when the Hamas start shooting unguided rockets at large population centres in Israel and won’t stop when asked nicely what the Israelis meant to do?

   Especially when the Hamas fighters specifically set up their rocket launchers in the middle of civilian schools and population centres.

   What are they meant to do when the same lovely Hamas spend half their time frothing at the mouth stating time after time how they are going to drive the Jews into the sea?

   Ummm duh of course they are going to shoot back at the rocket launchers which will result in some civilian casualties. A sad fact of war. If the civilians in Gaza don’t want casualties tell the Rambo wannabees to shoot their rockets from deserted warehouses etc.

   If Hamas really cared about their people how come they don’t beg Egypt & Iran to send them food supplies instead of an ever increasing number of rockets?

   Why did they have a factory in the Sudan which was dedicated to making rockets instead of canned food for their people?

   Sadly meany of those who look at the Gazans as an oppressed people have a very one eyed outlook.

   As to the old hairy chestnuts about the right of return etc. why did they not just accept the UN partition of 1947 which gave both the Arabs & Jews their own states? Why did the Arabs attack Israel the day after independence?

   Sadly the extremist Arabs/Muslims will never accept the right of Israel to exist as they are considered as infidel and this situation will carry on in to the foreseeable future.

   Peace will never happen while one side only wants war and death.
   • Professor Longhair 7.1

     19 November 2012 at 11:59 am

     Fool, you know nothing. Have you thought of reading something on this topic?
     • kiwi_prometheus 7.1.1

       19 November 2012 at 12:29 pm

       Problem is there is plenty of propaganda material to read eg the Zionist catch cry “A peopleless land for a landless people” when undertaking their colonisation project back in the day.
   • OneTrack 7.2

     19 November 2012 at 7:17 pm

     I think Israel are supposed to do nothing until Hamas have killed as manyIsraelis as Palestinians have been killed. Then they are allowed to start shooting back with a single Enfield 303. Otherwise, its “not fair”
8. tsmithfield 8

   19 November 2012 at 12:27 pm

   Here is a very interesting documentary on the 6 day war in 1967 where a fledgling Israel defeated the combined might of Egypt, Jordan, and Syria. It might give some insight into why Israel reacts the way they do, what fearsome opponents they can be.
   • Populuxe1 8.1

     19 November 2012 at 1:24 pm

     But exactly the same logic can be used to justify Hamas’ attacks on Israel and therefore suggests it isn’t much of a justification or logical at all.
9. kiwi_prometheus 9

   19 November 2012 at 12:41 pm

   Israel is a racist colonisation project. Probably explains why Western/Christian right wingers are in love with Israel even though they have always hated Jews.

   In fact right wing devotion to this colonisation project is to an extent based on a guilty conscience about the historical persecution of Jews by Western societies culminating in the Holocaust. Plus its a great cover to engage in racist vitriol and persecution and still be able to tell yourself you are only helping a persecuted minority defend themselves.

   Right wingers like to pretend to themselves they are the Jews best friend these days. Of course the Jews aren’t that stupid, after all the US Republican party would never have won a singe election if it was the American Jewish vote that directed the outcome. So while the right wingers are willing to play along, Israel milks it for all it can get, running circles around US foreign policy efforts in the Middle East.

   Its ironic that a group that was persecuted in Europe gets support to create their own nation state by demonising, persecuting and eliminating another group in the Middle East.
   • the central scutinizer 9.1

     19 November 2012 at 2:13 pm

     Well said kiwi. but the problem is a result of two people. If King Richard the lion heart had weapons of mass destruction, and [deleted – tasteless and offensive. r0b] we wouldn’t have this problem today.
     • PlanetOrphan 9.1.1

       19 November 2012 at 2:25 pm

       TRUELY OFFENSIVE STATEMENT !
       • karol 9.1.1.1

         19 November 2012 at 2:30 pm

         I’ve sent it for moderation.
         • r0b 9.1.1.1.1

           19 November 2012 at 2:40 pm

           Thanks karol – done.
           • PlanetOrphan 9.1.1.1.1.1

             19 November 2012 at 3:11 pm

             Thanks Karol & R0b , appreciated 🙂
   • OneTrack 9.2

     19 November 2012 at 7:20 pm

     So Israels real mistake is that the US supports them. Who would have thought.
10. Steve Wrathall 10

    19 November 2012 at 1:08 pm

    Israel’s unilateral withdrawl from Gaza was the perfect opportunity for the Palestinians to showcase a democratic, secular, prosperous state at peace with Israel. Instead the lunatics took over.
    http://www.facebook.com/#!/photo.php?fbid=10151115130947466&set=a.10150173316927466.299538.696207465&type=1&theater
    • Populuxe1 10.1

      19 November 2012 at 1:21 pm

      I’m always fascinated when people try to second guess people who have lived generations under siege one way or another as if anything rational would come into it. It suggests a superior naivete that in this day and age is almost touching.
    • North 10.2

      19 November 2012 at 3:34 pm

      Couldn’t you just bet on it……Wrathall comes out punching for the agents of apartheid, the oppressed turned oppressors.
11. centro 11

    19 November 2012 at 1:53 pm

    This is bullshit. While I don’t doubt the level of attack and the rhetoric is obviously an attempt by Netanyahu to appear strong ahead of the upcoming elections, Israel is completely within its rights to do this. If Fiji acquired weaponry to fire into NZ you would not object to NZ retaliating so what is the difference? If Hamas did not fire rockets into Israel, they would not attack them it is as simple as that. Every sovereign nation has the right to defend itself. It is indeed one sided as Israel is better equipped but that shows more the stupidity of Hamas and the reckless disregard they have for their people. They need to put down their weapons, come to the peace table and take what they can get. They might not regain Jerusalem or the exact borders of the 1940’s partition but theyre not in a position to do any better and the losses they have suffered are their own fault for not accepting the original borderlines and for losing wars. Don’t go to war and then cry foul when you lose and suffer for it.
    • Freedom 11.1

      19 November 2012 at 2:14 pm

      And I thought jimmies comment was as ignorant as it would get
    • North 11.2

      19 November 2012 at 3:38 pm

      Facile comparison centro. Typical of the stuff the zionist apologists peddle. Fiji never had any rights to NZ in the first place. Learn some history, just a brief appraisal of the chronology should do, starting with the Balfour Declaration round about 1919. Go on….hop on Google ignoramus.

      Justice the Seed Peace the Flower !
12. redfred 12

    19 November 2012 at 1:59 pm

    Sounds like Israel is working on it’s own “Final Solution” to the Palestine question.

    Israel needs to “flatten all of Gaza” in order to spare the lives of Israeli soldiers and civilians, according to one of the sons of former Israeli Prime Minister Ariel Sharon.

    http://www.nzherald.co.nz/world/news/article.cfm?c_id=2&objectid=10848507
    • Gosman 12.1

      19 November 2012 at 2:23 pm

      Do you think the views of one Israeli not in any position of authority is somehow representative of official policy of the state of Israel ?
      • felix 12.1.1

        19 November 2012 at 8:09 pm

        I think the historical record speaks for itself: http://www.informationclearinghouse.info/Israel_stealing_palestine.jpg
13. Manuka 13

    19 November 2012 at 2:37 pm

    Good on Israel and the IDF for defending Israel’s citzens. I’d want NZ to react the same way if a neighbour was sending rockets to kill our citizens.
    • North 13.1

      19 November 2012 at 3:43 pm

      The ignorant arseholes last reflected by you Manuka are sure out in force today.
    • Populuxe1 13.2

      19 November 2012 at 4:33 pm

      Problem is that compared to the thousands of Palestinian civilians killed by Israeli retaliation since 2000, Israeli casualties are so few that their media has taken to reporting on numbers being treated for emotional trauma.
      • OneTrack 13.2.1

        19 November 2012 at 7:01 pm

        “retaliation”. If Hamas would stop firing their rockets then there would be no need for retaliation and the carnage would stop. How does ideology overcome this obvious truth?
        • Populuxe1 13.2.1.1

          20 November 2012 at 12:10 am

          Well no, “retaliation and the carnage” would not stop, because it comes in forms that include a fucking big-arse blockade, illegal settlements, border creep, the hijacking of essential resources like water, and crazy militant ultra-orthodox who think they have a divine fiat to do whatever they like. This creates the pressures that played the ordinary Palestinians into the hands of Hamas.

          I’m sure your woolly thinking is very comforting when worn close to the skin – no doubt your handle “OneTrack” refers to your mind? Yes? 
    • Johnm 13.3

      19 November 2012 at 4:39 pm

      Hi Manuka The Hamas Guy Fawkes rockets are 100% alarm and half of one percent effective (Actually not even that). The Israeli response is 1000% alarm and 10,000% effective. It’s a War Crime of horrific disproportionate response. The use of an Arsenal of Death against a puny fireworks display opponent. 🙁
      • tsmithfield 13.3.1

        19 November 2012 at 4:54 pm

        If you look through the history of Israel, since their settlement after the 2nd World war, I think you will find that their response to any threat to their existence is overwhelming force.

        The documentary I pointed to earlier is well worth a viewing.

        Although a much smaller and less well armed force than the three countries that confronted them in that situation, Israel was decisive and overwhelmingly destructive. For instance, in their first strike, they caught the pretty much the entire Egyptian air-force on the ground and virtually anhilated it. Then they not only forced the Egyptians into retreat, they then continued on to napalm-bomb the retreating forces. Apparently Israel destroyed about 80% of Egypt’s military hardware in this war.

        In the 6 day war Israel tripled the land area it held. This, of course, was very useful for them strategically as it gave them buffer zones to help protect against future attacks.

        Because Israel is a small country amongst much larger nations that want to wipe it of the face of the map, I think they tend to respond to threats with overwhelming force. I suspect their objective is to consistently convey a message to their enemies that no-one should fuck with them.

        So far as Hamas is concerned, they are undoubtably aware of the eventual response they will get from Israel if they keep firing rockets. Sort of like poking a bear with a stick. The outcome is quite predictable. So, it seems to me that Hamas are deliberately trying to incite Israel to attack so that the Palistinians can be portrayed as helpless victims on the world stage. The problem with this strategy is that Hamas chooses to put their own population in harms way for political purposes.
        • Pascal's bookie 13.3.1.1

          19 November 2012 at 5:15 pm

          yawn smittums.

          The same thing also applies the other way. palestinians, (and the Lebanese) have shown for just as long how seriously they taek their perceived cause, and shown how they will respond to Israeli attacks and continued denial of the rights of self determination.

          Thus Israel knows exactly how they will respond to any given provocation or policy, and so it is Israel who is responsible for the rockets etc, because it is in her politicians best interest to ramp up the fear and portray themselves as the embattled nuclear power suffering from ‘terrorism’.

          It’s an awful calculus, but both sides play it. And it’s the Israelis with more options, and the control of the tempo.

          You are aware that in the days before the assassination that kicked this flare up off, there were negotiations happening around a framework for a permanent peace? Till a rocket pinpointed the hams negotiator’s car and Israel announced it on twitter.

          http://www.haaretz.com/news/diplomacy-defense/israeli-peace-activist-hamas-leader-jabari-killed-amid-talks-on-long-term-truce.premium-1.478085

          http://www.thedailybeast.com/articles/2012/11/15/assassinating-the-chance-for-calm.html

          Why now? What political calculations was Israel playing with in launching the attack at this time, other than their elections of course.

          The militants on both sides play off each other, and again, it’s Israel with more options, so that’s why they cop more blame.
          • tsmithfield 13.3.1.1.1

            19 November 2012 at 7:08 pm

            I don’t disagree with you. I just don’t see any point in trying to determine right or wrong. That is because the situation is entirely deterministic and predictable in nature, and what the rest of the world thinks won’t make any difference to what Israel does.
            • Populuxe1 13.3.1.1.1.1

              20 November 2012 at 12:16 am

              Both sides have blood on their hands and unless one has some theological skin in the conflict, the most useful thing we can do is to beg both sides to stop and begin to lead.
              • Professor Longhair …

                20 November 2012 at 8:34 am

                “Both sides?” Look at the respective death tolls, over the last few days, and over the last fifty years.

                Then, with a straight face, keep saying that “both sides” are equivalent.
        • felix 13.3.1.2

          19 November 2012 at 8:17 pm

          “Israel is a small country amongst much larger nations that want to wipe it of the face of the map

          Who is wiping who off the map: http://www.informationclearinghouse.info/Israel_stealing_palestine.jpg
          • travellerev 13.3.1.2.1

            20 November 2012 at 7:33 am

            It’s called projection F.
      • OneTrack 13.3.2

        19 November 2012 at 7:09 pm

        No it isn’t. Israel want the rockets to stop. They are taking steps to stop them. Thats it. Rockets stop, civilian deaths stop. On both sides.

        But one side does not want to stop and appear to not care about their people, and are happy for many of them to be in the firing line. Such bravery, hiding behind women and children. I guess someone else has to pay the price if someone wants to get to those virgins.
        • felix 13.3.2.1

          19 November 2012 at 8:02 pm

          Yeah, and those Afghanis just need to stop attacking American soldiers and give the country up, then they’ll stop being killed and tortured. Simple.

          And that whole Sth African apartheid thing back in the day, how come the blacks had to be so scrappy about it? Why couldn’t they just let whitey do what he wanted?

          And WW2, that could’ve been all over in a weekend if the rest of Europe had just stopped fighting back. They knew what the German response was going to be so why provoke them?

          Just too bloody lippy.
        • Pascal's bookie 13.3.2.2

          19 November 2012 at 8:34 pm

          They are taking steps to stop them.

          The steps they are taking won’t stop them. They haven’t stopped them any time they’ve tried these steps previously.

          Read this:

          http://www.jpost.com/Opinion/Op-EdContributors/Article.aspx?ID=292466&R=R1&utm_

          Bear in mind that he the son of a former PM, and that when he talks about Hiroshima and Nagasaki, that Israel has nukes. It is not sloppy language. Also note that his reasoning is precisely that used by Osama bin Laden for his attacks on western civilian populations. ‘They are not innocent’.

          Now read this:

          http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/1580339/Israeli-minister-vows-Palestinian-holocaust.html

          and ask yourself how likely it is that a senior Israeli politician would use the word ‘Shoah’ to mean ‘disaster’.
          • travellerev 13.3.2.2.1

            20 November 2012 at 7:41 am

            What’s more; the Israeli Government led by war criminal psychopath Netanyahu who is gagging for WWIII and the destruction of Iran stops every attempt at peace for more wagging the dog pre-election warmongering and let’s not forget the UN assemble wants to recognize Palestine as a state later this month.
14. beatie 14

    19 November 2012 at 6:34 pm

    http://www.juancole.com/2012/11/top-ten-myths-about-israeli-attack-on-gaza.html

    Worth a read.
    • AndrewK 14.1

      19 November 2012 at 11:45 pm

      Yeah, Znet has that piece by Juan Cole making an appearance there. It is one of the better spots to go to for critical analysis of almost any situation happening around the planet. Jonathan Cook also offers a succinct version of events leading up to the current Israeli onslaught against the relatively defenseless population of Gaza.

      Israel and its supporters always make it their first priority when Israel launches a new war of aggression to obscure the timeline of events as a way to cloud responsibility. The media willingly regurgitates such efforts at misdirection.

      In reality, Israel engineered a confrontation to provide the pretext for a “retaliatory” attack, just as it did four years earlier in Operation Cast Lead. Then Israel broke a six-month ceasefire agreed with Hamas by staging a raid into Gaza that killed six Hamas members.

      This time, on 8 November, Israel achieved the same end by invading Gaza again, on this occasion following a two-week lull in tensions. A 13-year-old boy out playing football was killed by an Israeli bullet.

      Tit-for-tat violence over the following days resulted in the injury of eight Israelis, including four soldiers, and the deaths of five Palestinian civilians, and the wounding of dozens more in Gaza.

      On November 12, as part of efforts to calm things down, the Palestinian militant factions agreed a truce that held two days – until Israel broke it by assassinating Hamas military leader Ahmed Jabari. The rockets out of Gaza that followed these various Israeli provocations have been misrepresented as the casus belli.

      But if Netanyahu and Barak are responsible for creating the immediate pretext for an attack on Gaza, they are also criminally negligent for failing to pursue an opportunity to secure a much longer truce with Hamas.

      We now know, thanks to Israeli peace activist Gershon Baskin, that in the period leading up to Jabari’s execution Egypt had been working to secure a long-term truce between Israel and Hamas. Jabari was apparently eager to agree to it.
15. Jenny 15

    19 November 2012 at 8:20 pm

    ‘
    http://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/news/article.cfm?c_id=1&objectid=10848263

    A New Zealand documentary maker escaped the Gaza Strip in a taxi as Israeli air strikes began while he was filming.

    Roger Fowler, a member of pro-Palestinian group Kia Ora Gaza, had found safety in Cairo after a “frightening” two days reporting on the bombardment, Radio New Zealand reported today.

    Fowler had been in Gaza for two weeks when the air strikes began.

    He had been working as a citizen journalist with an international group reporting on the situation within the Gaza Strip.

    Fowler’s son, Hone Fowler, told Radio New Zealand his father was safe in Egypt after a “frightening” two days reporting on the air strikes for a British website.

    “My dad was on the roof of the building on the walkie-talkie giving updates about who’s being bombed where … Early the next morning, he managed to get out via a brave taxi driver who sped him to the border in Rafa,” Hone Fowler said.

    APNZ
    • infused 15.1

      20 November 2012 at 9:10 am

      Always amazes me reporters go to war zones thinking they can just walk around and not get hurt.
16. Brett Dale 16

    19 November 2012 at 10:27 pm

    CNN uses fake footage of someone that was suppose to be injuried, and
    the LEFT SAID NOTHING.

    Maybe because it was fake footage of Palestine man being injured.

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-OImcBKEIIs

    This is UNACCEPTABLE from the anti Israeli media.
    • karol 16.1

      19 November 2012 at 10:30 pm

      Really.  So much outrage – and not any for all those people killed?
    • AndrewK 16.2

      19 November 2012 at 11:53 pm

      How is that fake footage. Are you saying people don’t get concussed or knocked unconscious from being too close to an explosion? Considering the horrors being inflicted on the people of Gaza the CNN piece was quite a sanatised version of events.
      • North 16.2.1

        20 November 2012 at 6:47 am

        Yeah……those missiles and all that smoke and the buildings burning and the bloody corpses of babies…..it’s all just Hollywood fakedom from Weta Workshop.

        You’re a disgusting individual [deleted], unabashed in your filth by a subliminal if not conscious belief in the sub-human quality of any Palestinian. No better than the arsehole accountant I recall in another post. You richly deserve the karmic backlash.

        Justice the Seed Peace the Flower !

        [lprent: outing here is not permitted unless the person does it themselves. ]
17. North 17

    20 November 2012 at 6:24 am

    I still want to vomit when I recall a New Zealand tv doco which screened just after the last rape of Gaza. Covered an accountant from Wellington exercising his “Right of Return”, never having stepped foot in the place as I recall.

    As he drove the journalist alongside a massive razor wire laced concrete “protection” wall about 12 metres high he snivelled and whined – “The Palestinians, they throw stones at us……”.

    FFS ! I recall thinking while watching it – “Jeezus, if I so much as leaned on your Hataitai fucking letterbox you’d call the fucking cops…..”
18. infused 18

    20 November 2012 at 1:33 pm
    • Pascal's bookie 18.1

      21 November 2012 at 9:19 pm

      wow. That’s some infantile stuff. Watched the whole thing.

      Doesn’t even try and appear to cover both sides of the issue.

      Honestly, what’s the point of posting that?

      It’s literally propaganda for children, or people with the knowledge of children.
    • felix 18.2

      21 November 2012 at 9:32 pm

      Hahaha it’s like one of those 5-minute South Park history lessons, except those are historically accurate and this one is entirely bullshit.
19. Jenny 19

    21 November 2012 at 8:43 pm

    ‘
    Israel commits war crimes, says only Kiwi left in Gaza
20. MQ 20

    23 November 2012 at 5:15 pm

    Israel commits warcrimes such as? And by whose court?
    Whats a warcrime? Our bombing of Nazi germany were they warcrimes too?
    A rocket sent against civilian Israelis?
    An Israeli plane committing a targeted execution of a Palestinian?
    An Israeli plane sending their five minute to explosion grenade allowing people to run from their houses and then destroying a house/building? (thats the way most bombings of housing/buildings happen in Gaza by the way – yeah all that live there knows about this somehow media never mentions it…)
    That Hamas deliberately builds 90% of all their military buildings underneath schools, residential houses is that war crimes?

    Should we indict the entire Middle East?

    FYI wars arent nice, people die, civilians die. there hasn’t been a war where we haven’t seen more civilians than soldiers die. i think we all need to understand that.

    Now how do we suggest Israel to sit down and speak with someone whose ultimate goal is the destruction of the Israeli state?
    Picture the situation where Israel talks about land and hamas says we want to destroy you and drive you into the ocean or oblivion. Who in their right mind would want to give a mm of land to such people? How can we even believe Israel will ever agree to a peace deal with people whose aim is to eradicate them from the land they live in?
    How will we ever make them trust the word of Hamas and its Iran supported offsprings when their ultimate goal is the destruction of the Israeli state?
    I cant see that ever happening until Hamas and its mates recognizes the right of Israel to exist. Until then we cant think that Israel will negotiate and to be honest they have no reason to negotiate with such a regime.
    That doesnt excuse some of the bullying that Israel does on a daily basis but it sure explains why we will never see peace between Israel and Hamas. it also explains why Jordan, Morcocco and other slightly more bright leaders in the Middle East took first importunity to sign a peace deal with Israel and to normalize the relationship. They know that Israel is there to stay and they will stay on the land of 1948 plus a certain percent of the West bank, they know Jerusalem will be the jewish capital. Its facts on the ground that cant be reversed no matter what people in the western world hope and believe. Ah not the western world those of us that visits the region knows the truth.

    I have been a lot to this area of the world and the only Palestinians living a decent life are the ones inside Israel. The ones that migrated to the neighboring countries are treated like second class citizens, Palestinians in Jordan, Syria, Lebanon and Egypt are refused basic human rights and have been so since 1948. they aren’t citizens of those countries despite having lived there for 4 or 5 generations and in some countries they are forced to remain in the same camps that were built for them in 1948 and refused permits to settle anywhere else.
    If we want to make a peace deal possible the first thing we should do is help these Palestinians become part of the countries where they live force these regimes to accept Palestinians as citizens of equal rights. then we remove one point and an important point from any peace settlement ie the right of return something everyone knows can and never will happen.

    if you travel to the gulf you’ll also notice that Palestinians are treated as second class citizens. In Kuwait they do heaps of simple business but aren’t allowed to be part of the decision making nor accepted into government or landownership. In Saudi (fairly rich country) they are living in filth.

    the only Palestinians with decent living standard are those inside Israel. they are of course more scared than almost anyone to loose this privileged position and thats why they in greater number than ever before serve in the Israeli defense force and actively says no to the right of return etc. (they own alot of the businesses thats open on the sabbath something that makes them fairly rich)

    inside Israel the ones we shall be concerned about are the Bedouins, treated like dirt by Palestinians, druze and jews. Among the Bedouins poverty is rampant its from here most of the large amount of prostitutes serving the Palestinians and Israelis come. these people have never had a chance to adapt to modern society and live in the south of Israel in camps and on land thats so poor and so neglected that its a really sad story. of course its not as sexy to admit that hey the main issue isnt those pesky Palestinians but infact they as well as the jews treat another group like dirt. Goes against some of the propaganda those that never have lived in the region or visited briefly tend to spread.
21. Pascal's bookie 21

    23 November 2012 at 7:05 pm

    Gosh yes there’s propaganda everywhere, we’re soaking in it, as the dish detergent ad used to say.

    And war is hell for certain, that’s a fact. Its’ a nasty business, and it’s a pretty damn fool exercise to be pretending otherwise.

    Pretending one side’s issues just ‘obviously’ have to be forgotten isn’t propaganda of course, or a way of looking at it. It’s something else I suppose. Weird anyway.

    But yeah. Hamas store their weapons in all sorts of places and Israel lash out at gaza when they want to send a message to Iran or Hezbollah. Or, lets be honest, to themselves when they feel bad that Hezbollah bloodied their nose. ‘Cast Lead’, 1200 dead, subtle.

    All that goes under ‘War is hell’.

    People are weapons, dead ones, especially kids, doubly so.

    gaza right? About the size of Detroit I’m told, with the population density of Hong Kong. I’ve not been there, oh messenger from the internet, so I have to take people’s word for it. Pretty damn crowded anyway. Not a lot of room. War is hell. Especially guerilla war. ‘Irregular war’ that’s a good one. Like war is regular. True fact, and also a piece of crap.

    Our war is regular, your war is unfair, which justifies our war, because what you do is inhuman. What can we do? White phosphorous illuminates things.

    One thing we should do is stop guys like this from reporting from gaza

    http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/middle-east/is-gideon-levy-the-most-hated-man-in-israel-or-just-the-most-heroic-2087909.html

    War is hell, and we needn’t know about the casually accurate shots fired into windscreens when we’d rather talk about the 5 second delays on our grenades of care. So best to you know, ban him from saying it.

    We’re soaking it.

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