Open mike 03/06/2022

87 comments on “Open mike 03/06/2022 ”

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1. Jimmy 1

   3 June 2022 at 9:05 am

   Sounds like the police had a good night last night in Pakuranga arresting 12 people. Good result as long as its not a catch and release policy.

   Pakuranga arrests: Residents 'frightened' after gang incident in east Auckland overnight | Stuff.co.nz

   And Andrew Coster apologises!!!!!! He's obviously getting some pretty harsh feedback from the front line officers.

   Police Commissioner Andrew Coster apologises after backlash from officers over pursuit comments | Newshub
   • Blade 1.1

     3 June 2022 at 9:18 am

     Coster is a good cop. But he's not a man for our times. Someone with an attitude like this chap is:

     https://www.laworderreferendum.org.nz/Tait.htm
     • Jimmy 1.1.1

       3 June 2022 at 11:27 am

       Yep agreed. Thanks ….very interesting article.
2. Blade 2

   3 June 2022 at 9:05 am

   Mark Mitchell has had his meeting with Andrew Coster. According to Mitchell the meeting lasted two hours; was positive and Mitchell will respect the office of the police commissioner( why?). He wants police to get back to core policing.

   So fucking disappointing. I think of all the victims that crime will continue to churn out under Mitchell's watch as police minister. I really can't in all honesty continue to bag Poto Williams when her replacement will be little better.

   Sure, National may increase police numbers by 300. Open two closed police stations. Have a foot patrol every second day down Auckland's empty CBD. But that's just tinkering.

   1- Will they arm the police?

   2-Will they ban all gang patches in public areas?

   3- Will they build a huge super max prison so criminals who commit minor offences repeatedly with few consequences at present, can be jailed?

   Nope.

   Hell, I could cut drink driving offences by 20-35% overnight. I could get an 80% success rate in resolving who had killed a Maori baby. The whanau would be more than happy to cough up the offender.

   Then there's this paywalled BOPT headline:

   https://www.nzherald.co.nz/bay-of-plenty-times/news/gang-member-prison-rates-at-seven-year-low-but-proportion-of-incarcerated-gangsters-increases/SFTUUA23F2VQKYDYDOQEGXFIQY/

   https://www.newstalkzb.co.nz/on-air/mike-hosking-breakfast/audio/pollies-mps-mark-mitchell-and-megan-woods-on-mitchells-meeting-with-andrew-coster-the-pacific-and-mahuta-and-the-latest-polls/

   Aotearoa…a gangsters paradise.
   • Muttonbird 2.1

     3 June 2022 at 9:29 am

     According to Mitchell the meeting lasted two hours; was positive and Mitchell will respect the office of the police commissioner (why?)

     Would you prefer politicians with the police portfolio did not resect the office of the police commissioner?

     I don't think you would because this means police would be under direct control of the government which is, by definition, a police state.

     Mitchell has been told off for telling the police what to do in the media. He appears to have got the message which is good but his behaviour should worry all Kiwis; you can imagine the daily interference in police operations were he ever minister.
     • Blade 2.1.1

       3 June 2022 at 9:35 am

       ''Would you prefer politicians with the police portfolio did not respect the office of the police commissioner?''

       Respect is earnt. When the commissioner is not doing a good job, that should be pointed out to him and options explored. Mitchell failed on that account. The Commissioner and his office are basically intertwined.

       ''Mitchell has been told off for telling the police what to do in the media.''

       I know nothing of this. Could you explain further?
       • Muttonbird 2.1.1.1

         3 June 2022 at 9:50 am

         In this context respect is not earned, it is formally prescribed. See the two bullet points under definition 2 below:

         verb respect

         1. admire (someone or something) deeply, as a result of their abilities, qualities, or achievements.

            "she was respected by everyone she worked with"

         2. have due regard for (someone's feelings, wishes, or rights).

            "I respected his views"

            • avoid harming or interfering with.

              "it is incumbent upon all hill users to respect the environment"

            • agree to recognize and abide by (a legal requirement).

              "the crown and its ministers ought to respect the ordinary law"

         My reading was that in the meeting Mitchell had been asked by Coster to stop interfering in police operational matters via the media (told off). That's why he has said, "he will respect the office of the police commissioner".
       • AB 2.1.1.2

         3 June 2022 at 10:05 am

         Respect is earnt (2.1.1)

         Eh? Mitchell supposedly said "respect the office". That's nothing to do with individuals – it's respecting the constitutional arrangement that makes police operational matters a no go area for politicians. As Muttonbird said – without that, you've taken the first step towards a police state. Most likely, Mitchell said "respect the office" to make it clear that he didn't respect the individual. Mitchell has always appeared to me as a sub-verbal, incipient thug – not surprising he needs something as simple as the importance of this constitutional convention pointed out to him.
         • Pataua4life 2.1.1.2.1

           3 June 2022 at 10:28 am

           A reply to all.

           According to Mitchell the meeting lasted two hours; was positive and Mitchell will respect the office of the police commissioner

           I think you will find this statement was made in reference that he wouldn't talk about what was discussed in the meeting on the open airways and I can't find fault with that.

           As soon as Labour has gone so is Coster. History will show him a failure as is Poto Williams. Crime under Labour just like the public Service always goes up.
           • Muttonbird 2.1.1.2.1.1

             3 June 2022 at 10:33 am

             I think you will find this statement was made in reference that he wouldn't talk about what was discussed in the meeting on the open airways.

             That would be a first time for Mitchell.
           • Blade 2.1.1.2.1.2

             3 June 2022 at 11:10 am

             I wonder what was said off the record?
             • Peter …

               3 June 2022 at 11:50 am

               Maybe off the record Mitchell told him that when the national/Act Government comes in they'll:

               1 – Arm the police

               2 – Ban all gang patches in public areas

               3 – Build a huge super max prison so criminals who commit minor offences can be jailed

               4 – Increase police numbers by 300.

               5 – Open two closed police stations.

               6 – Have a foot patrol every second day down Auckland's empty CBD

               7 – Cut drink driving offences by 20-35% overnight.

               Oh, and go along with ACT and liberalise gun laws.
           • Drowsy M. Kram 2.1.1.2.1.3

             3 June 2022 at 11:17 am

             In mid-February 2021, Coster's efforts to combat gang and gun violence were criticised by the National Party's Justice spokesperson Simon Bridges, who described Coster as a "wokester commissioner" in a Twitter post.
             https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Andrew_Coster#Police_Commissioner

             Simon who? History will show who of those two was the greatest failure.

             Coster's decision to rule out "enforcement action" was criticised by the National Party's police spokesman Mark Mitchell, who claimed that Coster had lost credibility as Police Commissioner. On 2 March, Police evicted the remaining anti-mandate protesters following a violent riot.

             Seems you’re right P4L, not only would Coster be gone under a National party-led govt, I doubt that he would have been appointed in the first place.

             https://www.transparency.org.nz/blog/transparency-and-intelligence
           • Incognito 2.1.1.2.1.4

             3 June 2022 at 11:31 am

             Crime under Labour just like the public Service always goes up.

             [links required]
             • KJT …

               3 June 2022 at 12:32 pm

               But. He wants more police. Are they not "Public service".

               Joined up thinking not his strong point?
               • Nic the NZer …

                 3 June 2022 at 12:53 pm

                 The way to lower measured crime rates is to elect a party which games the stats, National.
               • Craig H …

                 3 June 2022 at 3:19 pm

                 They are not part of the Public Service as defined by the Public Service Act 2020. They are obviously part of the public or state sector, however.
             • Pataua4life …

               3 June 2022 at 1:46 pm

               https://www.publicservice.govt.nz/our-work/workforce-data/public-sector-composition/workforce-size
               • KJT …

                 3 June 2022 at 1:55 pm

                 Despite claims NZ's policing is too 'woke', crime rates are largely static — and even declining (theconversation.com)
               • KJT …

                 3 June 2022 at 1:59 pm

                 And the public service numbers needed to rise. After National cut it so much as to make it dysfunctional. Very obvious in health, education and other services. Then they lost any savings by employing a whole heap of private contractors.

                 Who do you think does all that covid tracing, vaccinations, border control and health services, for one.
               • Incognito …

                 3 June 2022 at 2:19 pm

                 Thank you.

                 Those data indeed show that the headcount in the Public Service increased 2000-2007 and 2017-2021 under Labour Governments and was fairly static 2008-2016 under National. However, the same trend was observed for the headcount in the Private Sector. In fact, it is strikingly similar with a very high correlation. So, Labour governments are good for employment overall; don’t you hate the facts, sometimes

                 Over the last five years, the overall public sector workforce increased by 13.7% (with central government up 13.9% and local government up 12.4%). This compares with an 8.9% growth in the private sector over the same period.

                 Looking forward to your other link 😊
         • Blade 2.1.1.2.2

           3 June 2022 at 4:03 pm

           ''Eh? Mitchell supposedly said "respect the office". That's nothing to do with individuals – it's respecting the constitutional arrangement that makes police operational matters a no go area for politicians.''

           Like I said, the office of the commissioner and the commissioner( individual) are intertwined. The constitutional separation of the office from political interference is a given( but not proven over the years). The man in the street doesn't make such a fine distinction.

           ''Most likely, Mitchell said "respect the office" to make it clear that he didn't respect the individual.''

           That is supposition. If true, it means Mitchell is playing games hoping voters ( wink,wink) can read between the lines. Many won't.

           Again, if National had any intentions of introducing hardline policing, Mitchell should have gone after the commissioner… and it shouldn't have taken two hours. Two hours is a mighty long time. Maybe they had gingernuts, a latte and a chat about rugby.
       • Incognito 2.1.1.3

         3 June 2022 at 10:12 am

         Mitchell failed on that account.

         How do you know? Where you present at the 2-hour meeting? Did you read a full first-hand account in the media? No? Then you’re making up stuff again.

         The Commissioner and his office are basically intertwined.

         Nope
     • lprent 2.1.2

       3 June 2022 at 1:20 pm

       Mitchell has been told off for telling the police what to do in the media. He appears to have got the message which is good but his behaviour should worry all Kiwis; you can imagine the daily interference in police operations were he ever minister.

       There is a reason why the police, armed forces, judiciary, and a few other branches are directly responsible to the crown. In other words at exactly the same level as parliament. Parliament allocates funding for them, but has no direct operational control. They are subject to the crown.

       Basically because no-one trusts a politicians over the long term. There are always a few idiots with a limited understanding of how our society operates at a structural level and inclined towards short-term stupidity.
       • Ad 2.1.2.1

         3 June 2022 at 3:53 pm

         Similar could be said for many other Crown entities:

         ACC, NZSuperFund, NZTA, Kainga Ora, Crown Infrastructure partners, NZPost/Kiwibank, all Universities, Kiwirail, RBNZ, TVNZ, Transpower, the majority shareholdings in power generators, and a lot more.

         Some still respond to Ministerial direction and media grief, but often quite faintly. Some are statutorily protected. Most would have the independence to tell even the Minister of Finance where to stick it. A few have workarounds.

         Raises the question of how the new water entities will be treated as kinds of public entity.
   • KJT 2.2

     3 June 2022 at 10:07 am

     "1- Will they arm the police?

     2-Will they ban all gang patches in public areas?

     3- Will they build a huge super max prison so criminals who commit minor offences repeatedly with few consequences at present, can be jailed?"

     Maybe "they" will.

     National has a long track record of ignoring evidence and doing the things that increase, not reduce crime. Like sending minor offenders, the mentally ill, literacy challenged, and silly teenagers to "crime University"/Prisons. Dog whistling to those who ignore the evidence and think “tough on crime” actually works.

     The Police commissioner is heading towards evidence based approaches, that really do reduce crime. Reducing crime is the goal, is it not?

     Your revenge fantasies are the approaches that have been shown not to work. What will you say if your prescription is adopted and there is more crime, recidivism, and crime victims.
     • Blade 2.2.1

       3 June 2022 at 4:22 pm

       ''Your revenge fantasies are the approaches that have been shown not to work. What will you say if your prescription is adopted and there is more crime, recidivism, and crime victims.''

       The day you front up with some original ideas of your own, is the day I will take you seriously. That goes for Peter above who's forced to copy my korero.

       But, to be fair, you sometimes fluke good points. For example:

       What will you say if your prescription is adopted and there is more crime, recidivism, and crime victims.''

       Good point. I would say. ''Well, I'm wrong. What I have suggested, hasn't worked. I'm sorry, we need to try something else. At least it's one strategy we can cross off the list.''

       See, I care about innocent victims. I want something that helps them. I don't have a ego regarding this issue. I'm not trying to protect an ideological position like so many on this blog. Hence my caning of those liberal sops who call themselves the National Party.
       • KJT 2.2.1.1

         3 June 2022 at 4:33 pm

         Oh. I've fronted up with plenty of ideas about what works.

         Don't need "original ones". I leave that to people who have researched it at length. Who have proof of what works. I'll leave those who think their individual uneducated "opinions" mean jack shit, to Facebook warriors like yourself.

         If you cared about "innocent victims" you would, like me be advocating for approaches to crime reduction that works.

         I know it is over your head, but less crimes equal less victims.

         Your approach has been tried for decades. It doesn’t fucking work!

         Tough on crime nitwits, and politicians who pander to them, do not address underlying causes, so we get more victims.
         • Blade 2.2.1.1.1

           3 June 2022 at 4:47 pm

           Look, your trouble is you are believing your own bullshit.

           ”Don't need original ones". I leave that to people who have researched it at length.”

           You aren't capable of original ideas. People who have researched things at length don't have a mortgage on good ideas. If they did we wouldn't have as much crime as we have today.

           ''Your approach has been tried for decades. It doesn’t fucking work!''

           No, it hasn't. I have two original ideas to start with that haven't been tried.

           1-How to reduce drink driving offences overnight,

           2- How to make whanau cough up a suspected baby killer.
           • KJT 2.2.1.1.1.1

             3 June 2022 at 4:51 pm

             Two that are not original and that have been tried and failed elsewhere.

             Eco-ing the "Sensible sentencing trust is hardly "original thought".
             • Blade …

               3 June 2022 at 4:56 pm

               That's a lie. Don't flounder around, provide a link.
               • KJT …

                 3 June 2022 at 7:24 pm

                 To your "original thoughts"?

                 Don't think I want to rummage around in that mess.
                 • Blade …

                   3 June 2022 at 10:09 pm

                   Provide a link. I'm calling you out. You are a liar. And you need to be shown as such. Your comments are vacuous and sloppy. You put nothing into your posts…and it shows.
                   • KJT …

                     3 June 2022 at 10:32 pm

                     Really lost the plot. Eh.

                     It is OK to ask for help with your violent fantasies, you know!
                   • Blade …

                     3 June 2022 at 10:45 pm

                     Don't deflect. I'm not letting you get away with lies and trolling when you can't muster an argument, or back yourself up. Here's an example:

                     ''Really lost the plot. Eh. It is OK to ask for help with your violent fantasies, you know!''

                     Sad bottom of the barrel stuff.

                     Of course you could apologise and admit you may have got things wrong. I had to do that yesterday.

                     Blade…
                     2 June 2022 at 9:54 pm
                     That was incorrect. My apologies.
                     What I should have wrote was ”I’m a beneficiary of the trust board,” not a member of the trust board.
                   • Incognito []

                     4 June 2022 at 2:03 pm

                     You did not have to correct yourself and apologise, you chose this on your own accord. We would have been none the wiser about your ‘error’. In fact, you had an earlier opportunity to correct your ‘error’ (here: https://thestandard.org.nz/open-mike-31-05-2022/#comment-1891353), but you failed to do so then!?

                     Seems to me you’re making up stuff here to suit your narrative and when it does no longer suit your narrative you ‘correct’ it (aka twist & change). If so, that would be disingenuous and not commenting in good faith and it would mean we cannot take your comments at face value.
                   • Blade …

                     4 June 2022 at 3:27 pm

                     You may have got the wrong end of the stick.

                     ''You did not have to correct yourself and apologise, you chose this on your own accord. We would have been none the wiser about your ‘error’. In fact, you had an earlier opportunity to correct your ‘error’ (here: https://thestandard.org.nz/open-mike-31-05-2022/#comment-1891353), but you failed to do so then!?''

                     I had to correct myself when you pointed my error out indirectly because what I had written was factually incorrect. I hadn't previously corrected my error because I hadn't noticed it until your post.

                     ''Seems to me you’re making up stuff here to suit your narrative and when it does no longer suit your narrative you ‘correct’ it (aka twist & change). If so, that would be disingenuous and not commenting in good faith and it would mean we cannot take your comments at face value.''

                     Fair enough, I can't change your perceptions of me. Would your perceptions also apply to the KJT's comments above?
                   • Incognito []

                     4 June 2022 at 3:38 pm

                     My perceptions depend on context and (can) change over time. My perceptions of your comments don’t apply equally to comments by others.
                   • Blade …

                     4 June 2022 at 3:41 pm

                     I got it.
                   • Incognito []

                     4 June 2022 at 3:42 pm

                     I sincerely doubt it but time will tell.
   • gsays 2.3

     3 June 2022 at 10:26 am

     Maybe try living in the States.

     The cops are armed, got a death penalty, super-max prisons, Hell they even have a incarceration industry they've gotta have crime under control…
     • tc 2.3.1

       3 June 2022 at 2:50 pm

       Totally.

       National plan's been hatched watching 'Mayor of Kingstown' as a way to regenerate provincial NZ via incarceration.
     • Blade 2.3.2

       3 June 2022 at 4:29 pm

       Their justice system is shot. They have regional police forces. They have poorly trained police who rely more on toys and gizmos to get the job done.

       But they send people away for life. They never taste freedom again. You can't commit crime if you are in jail.

       Check out my clip I posted the other day – China v USA.
   • Jimmy 2.4

     3 June 2022 at 1:38 pm

     Interesting / scary comment on the video around 2:30' – "30% of enquiries to the dairy and small business Association from dairy / small business owners, was asking how they obtain a gun licence"

     They have decided to take security matters in to their own hands. It will only be a matter of time until one does fight back.

     https://www.newshub.co.nz/home/politics/2022/06/calls-for-pm-jacinda-ardern-to-declare-crime-crisis-as-dairy-owners-arm-themselves-amid-spike-in-violent-robberies.html
     • KJT 2.4.1

       3 June 2022 at 4:38 pm

       Why bother. Most of the ram raiders will be in jail soon.

       More than 80 people arrested for ram raids since February 1 | Stuff.co.nz

       Arrested by those "soft on crime" cops.
       • Jimmy 2.4.1.1

         3 June 2022 at 4:44 pm

         I hope you are right. But many are back out there the following evening.

         [Link required – Incognito]
         • KJT 2.4.1.1.1

           3 June 2022 at 4:48 pm

           And. You know that, how?
           • gypsy 2.4.1.1.1.1

             3 June 2022 at 10:27 pm

             It's good to see they've been arrested, however I think Jimmy's point may be that apparently most of the perpetrators are under 15. I'm not sure they'll spend long in custody.
         • Incognito 2.4.1.1.2

           3 June 2022 at 5:11 pm

           Mod note
     • Blade 2.4.2

       3 June 2022 at 10:25 pm

       Yep, Jimmy, arming the dairy owners is common sense to me. I have suggested previously on this blog a three months small arms course for those shop owners wanting to protect themselves with a gun.

       Of course it will never happen. I don't think this government understands the shit storm that's hanging over their heads. Either a ram raider is going to be killed by a shop owner…or a shop owner is going to be killed by a robber. In this political climate all hell could break loose. That will be on Labours head.
3. aj 3

   3 June 2022 at 10:18 am

   Democracy means different things to different people. This is a short thread on the 2022 Democracy Perception Index Report 2022 – the world’s largest annual study on how people perceive democracy.

   It is commissioned by "The Alliance of Democracies Foundation", founded by Anders Fogh Rasmussen, the former NATO Secretary General and former Prime Minister of Denmark.

   Every year, this is by far the most interesting study on democracy because it doesn't rely on the opinion of "experts" but on people's actual perceptions.

   As such the results are often surprising and it raises profound questions of what democracy actually is.

   https://threadreaderapp.com/thread/1532236805143027713.html
4. Pataua4life 4

   3 June 2022 at 2:12 pm

   Yes I know it behind a paywall. You can get a summery of facts over at the Daily Blog

   https://www.nzherald.co.nz/business/sale-of-the-century-55-60-of-aucklands-large-scale-state-land-to-be-sold-for-private-ownership/F6WLWIURSPW2UMRKGUD5Z6PUTY/

   Good ole Labour, such a party of the left.

   

   [You’re now 2 links short of a Happy Meal. Put up the links or take a week off. In Pre-Mod until you oblige – Incognito]
   • Incognito 4.1

     3 June 2022 at 2:30 pm

     Mod note
   • Pataua4life 4.2

     3 June 2022 at 3:31 pm

     Only one Link short and here it is:

     https://www.police.govt.nz/sites/default/files/publications/crime-at-a-glance-dec2020.pdf

     Bit old but the easiest one I could find.

     What is states – crimes against property has gone down. I suspect people are no longer reporting as they know the crime won't be resolved.

     Crime against people has gone up.

     I firmly believe that I am correct in my original statement.

     We know gun violence has gone through the roof. Auckland has more shooting incidence per week than Mahuta has MFAT meetings. Gang violence is out of control, Labour is soft on crime, it is just a fact that NZ knows

     [Nope, you’re still 2 links short and you’re wasting my time because this clearly doesn’t support your assertion.

     I don’t care if you go for the easiest one or if you genuinely believe your own assertions to be correct or what you suspect or if “it is just a fact that NZ knows”. I care about you providing evidential support for your claims, which shouldn’t be too hard if they’re correct, as you allege. If somebody else provides them for you in the meantime you’ll still receive a ban – how unfair is that? Put up or shut up.

     You did so well with your other link about the Public Service under Labour!

     Since you mention Mahuta again, a few days ago you hinted at corruption charges (https://thestandard.org.nz/nationals-policies-dont-add-up/#comment-1891222) but you never followed up on these when I asked you about it. Here’s your chance and use your words carefully. The odds have been raised to a fortnight ban – Incognito]
     • Incognito 4.2.1

       3 June 2022 at 4:09 pm

       Mod note
   • Ad 4.3

     3 June 2022 at 3:44 pm

     Kainga Ora is now structured commercially so that it keeps delivering housing construction no matter which party is in parliament. It does this by ensuring that it raises its own capital through property sales, and then spends it on intensive housing on the remaining land. Might not sound particularly leftie in the socialist sense of controlling the means of production, but it's a way of extracting the politics out of it as much as possible.

     This has been going on for a while. The results you can see for yourself.

     If you went up to the Sky City revolving restaurant you might just see the extent of it from Pt England to Mangere to Oranga to Mt Roskill to Hobsonville to Northcote.

     Brand new high quality intensified integrated communities.
     • Poission 4.3.1

       3 June 2022 at 3:54 pm

       Yeah so commercial they (this time last year) issued a 300m$ inflation bond( coupon rate 2.5%) going to be paying 7.5% for a longtime unless they get cost inflation out of their builds.
       • Ad 4.3.1.1

         3 June 2022 at 4:27 pm

         I can't speak to their commerciality …

         … but best of luck to them if they can generate fixed price contracts that all the main banks seem to require for lending now.
         • Poission 4.3.1.1.1

           3 June 2022 at 4:44 pm

           Debt has blown out to 7.1 billion,with new debt being around 4.2% .NZ building costs have increased by 20% last 12 months,Australia 9%.

           Australia also has seen building consents for new houses decrease by 33% over the last 12 months,and mortgage pain has not even started there.

           In the US where markets are better informed,construction costs responded in real time (as did unsold new housing stock) with lumber falling 55% in 2 months.( 58 cents a board foot)

           https://www.nasdaq.com/market-activity/commodities/lbs
     • Visubversa 4.3.2

       3 June 2022 at 5:28 pm

       Absolutely. There are sites that are more suitable for the kind of medium density housing that Kainga Ora is delivering now, and there are sites that are not suitable for it. It makes sense to sell the latter, particularly if they are small, and fragmented from previous sell offs by National governments. Also some sites on major arterials are less suitable for the kind of community based developments and also need extensive noise attenuation and particulate control from 30 to 40 thousand vehicle movements per day. In many cases the private sector can develop these better.
5. Adrian 5

   3 June 2022 at 2:53 pm

   Dairy owners would have a far easier and safer life if they stopped pushing drugs like cigarettes and vape shit.
   • Ad 5.1

     3 June 2022 at 3:46 pm

     So many of them are marginal that about half of them need to shut anyway.

     Not a fun prospect but it's more likely you will buy milk and bread from the petrol station anyway. It's just that kind of society.
     • weka 5.1.1

       3 June 2022 at 8:12 pm

       depends on what part of the country you live in.
6. Jimmy 6

   3 June 2022 at 3:48 pm

   Avoid Papakura at the moment, there has been a daytime shooting.

   Police operation underway in Papakura, Auckland – NZ Herald
7. adam 7

   3 June 2022 at 3:58 pm

   I'm going to talk smack about the propaganda coming out of businessnz.

   So if you don't like that sort of thing please scroll past – thank you.

   It's just another think tank from the school of hard right shitfuckery trying to manipulate the agenda with fake experts.

   With their half baked adds all over YouTube, full of fear and half truths.

   I'm surprised, they have not cried "think of the Children"

   https://www.yourworkyourway.co.nz/

   Greedy wankers are going to be greedy wanker I suppose. And screw working people actually getting a decent wage from you greedy scum.

   Working people will never get a fair go, when so many have let cupidity taint their souls.
   • weka 7.1

     3 June 2022 at 8:14 pm

     I saw a meme earlier in those colours saying if 10% of people want a fair pay agreement 100% of people get it. Thought their comms team needed to sit and have a bit of a think about that.
8. Ad 8

   3 June 2022 at 4:24 pm

   June 9th is when the US January 6th Commission finally goes straight into prime time tv.

   (75) Pat Attention – YouTube

   According to the committee, they will "present previously unseen material documenting January 6th, receive witness testimony, preview additional hearings, and provide the American people a summary of its findings about the coordinated, multi-step effort to overturn the results of the 2020 presidential election and prevent the transfer of power."

   That's our calendar next Friday.
   https://www.cbsnews.com/news/house-january-6-committee-hearing-june-9-primetime/

   This is when some of the darker group texts, QAnon influence, and attack orders get truly exposed as the insurrection plan they actually were.
9. Blade 9

   3 June 2022 at 4:36 pm

   Here's more scary stuff. Time Kelvin Davis was shown the door.

   https://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/assaults-on-corrections-staff-up-156-per-cent-6000-workdays-lost/CVRFXXRWAI6B4Y6ARKRNABU774/
   • Puckish Rogue 9.1

     3 June 2022 at 6:25 pm

     Way past time he was shown the door.
     • Blade 9.1.1

       3 June 2022 at 6:42 pm

       This Labour government has gone from being a band of merry socialists, to a band of perpetual losers. Do you have any advice for them Puck? Advice the can be printed that is.
       • Puckish Rogue 9.1.1.1

         3 June 2022 at 7:06 pm

         Pick people based on talent, not on diversity and realise that the people most affected by the rise in crime are most likely Labour voters so they risk a massive backlash if they don't do something and quickly

         As an example how long is this guy actually going to spend in prison:

         https://www.stuff.co.nz/timaru-herald/news/128138095/man-jailed-after-breaking-eye-sockets-of-fourmonthold-baby
         • Blade 9.1.1.1.1

           3 June 2022 at 7:17 pm

           Great reply. Sage advice that unfortunately won't be followed.

           ”As an example how long is this guy actually going to spend in prison”

           About 4-5 years. Nothing too strenuous.

           Meanwhile this happened in Hastings.

           Warning: disturbing video.

           https://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/three-year-old-toddler-covered-in-blood-after-hastings-park-brawl-involving-gang-member/HIS3GMEOYHPN3SCVRRN4S53ROE/
           • Louis 9.1.1.1.1.1

             3 June 2022 at 11:50 pm

             When National were in power, did you blame them for every criminal act that was committed?
         • Louis 9.1.1.1.2

           3 June 2022 at 7:19 pm

           How is that Labour's fault? and that's a court's decision.

           "the people most affected by the rise in crime are most likely Labour voters"

           Do you have a link to back up that claim?
     • Louis 9.1.2

       3 June 2022 at 7:14 pm

       Why?
   • Louis 9.2

     3 June 2022 at 7:13 pm

     From your link "The data, given to the NZ Herald through the Official Information Act, showed annual assaults on staff increased in seven of the last 10 years"

     "He cited what he considered a long-standing problem"

     "In a statement, Corrections Minister Kelvin Davis referenced the "prison crisis" inherited by the Government in 2017 when the prison population had increased beyond 10,000. Since then, it had reduced 27 per cent. However, he said more serious offenders – including gang members – had been locked up during this time which posed a risk to staff. "This brings its own challenges, particularly to staff who have to manage a heightened environment where mental health issues and methamphetamine addiction are also increasingly more prevalent," he said. Davis said staff deserved to feel safe and the Violence and Aggression plan was one way to reduce assaults. He referenced the $23 million from Budget 2022 given to hire an extra 64 staff across the three prisons facing the most challenges in this area – Auckland Prison, Christchurch Men's and Mt Eden. That was part of the extra 518 staff who would be hired during the next four years"
     • Blade 9.2.1

       3 June 2022 at 7:29 pm

       First off, National aren't on duty. Labour is.

       Since then, it had reduced 27 per cent ( prison population)

       Question: where are the people who would have formally been in prison for more minor offences?

       ''However, he said more serious offenders – including gang members – had been locked up during this time which posed a risk to staff. ''

       Correct. However, the gang population is exploding. 10 years ago a major hole in gang numbers would have occurred with the number of gangsters now locked up. Nowadays the gangs always have the numbers to fill in shortfalls in their ranks.
       • Grafton Gully 9.2.1.1

         3 June 2022 at 7:58 pm

         "the gang population is exploding" because of growing demand for meth. Fucked if I now why is it a coping mechanism like booze or to stay awake longer or some kind of sexual performance thing or the stress of modern life maybe. The gangs have a crucial supply role anyway and good on them. Not much else while prostitutes are legal and I'm guessing because of our low wages not so much demand for trafficked slave labour – no idea if they are into bribing small businesses with threats of violence – after all who would let the cat out of the bag on that one ?

         https://www.1news.co.nz/2019/10/06/drugs-a-main-factor-in-rise-of-gangs-in-new-zealand-police-say/
       • Louis 9.2.1.2

         3 June 2022 at 8:02 pm

         "showed annual assaults on staff increased in seven of the last 10 years"

         National was on duty during that time.

         https://www.corrections.govt.nz/resources/strategic_reports/statements-of-intent/statement_of_intent_2018-2022/our_strategic_direction

         Do you have a link to cover your last paragraph?
       • Craig H 9.2.1.3

         4 June 2022 at 2:34 am

         On home detention as work was done to find suitable lodging for them. I can't remember where I read it so can't give a source, but the main reason people are declined home detention is lack of a suitable address to serve the sentence. Sounds like work has been done to remove that barrier.
10. Blade 10

    3 June 2022 at 10:03 pm

    ''National was on duty during that time.''

    Yes, but my point is they haven't been in the wheel house for the past 6 years – Labour has. The blood is on Labours hands. Just like Labours responsibility for crime will be passed on to National next year, regardless of what Labour has or hasn't done regarding crime.

    ''Do you have a link to cover your last paragraph?''

    No, I don't. There is no need. It is general knowledge and has been in the news time and again. In fact, on another blog, I pointed to a huge increase in gang numbers close to a year before the issue started being reported in MSM. How did I know? From extended family in the mob who told me about new recruiting methods being employed. It's all about numbers.
    • Louis 10.1

      3 June 2022 at 11:46 pm

      You acknowledge that National were in power during that time, but then claim its all Labour's fault, despite efforts to address long standing issues. No one said it could be sorted over night. Consequences from the National government didn't suddenly disappear when National got kicked out in late 2017. It hasn't been 6 years.

      Well if you think Labour has blood on its hands, then so does National.

      "Just like Labours responsibility for crime will be passed on to National next year"

      Like Labour inherited the shambles National left and there is no guarantee that National will win the election next year.

      So you cant back yourself up. I am not surprised.
      • Blade 10.1.1

        4 June 2022 at 12:11 am

        You obviously can't understand what I'm writing, or you are being wilfully ignorant.

        I'm noticing when you Lefties run out of an argument you become surly and nasty very fast.

        I'll try one more time.

        National is not in power. Labour is. National cannot do a fucking thing about crime because they are not in power. Labour can do something about crime because they are in power. It matters not what National did before. It matters not what supposed mess National left Labour. It doesn't matter. But it matters big time for Labour because they are the government.

        BTW.., have you read that link you posted? Talk about a gift for people like me. It's also a record for future generations to understand the dynamics of failure when ideology trumps common sense and real world needs.

        Quote from your link. Talk about bs of the first water. Tell that crap to crime victims, frightened citizens and dairy owners.

        ”Government goal:

        This Government has made a commitment to create a more effective criminal justice system and safer New Zealand. Achieving these long-term objectives will require systemic reform consistent with New Zealand values and aspirations, across the whole of the criminal justice system and the social sector. This will involve public engagement, partnerships with iwi/Māori and other community groups, legislative reform, investment in new services and operational change – amongst other things.”
        • Louis 10.1.1.1

          4 June 2022 at 12:27 am

          "I'm noticing when you Lefties run out of an argument you become surly and nasty very fast"

          That's what you are doing and you are being deliberately obtuse.

          "showed annual assaults on staff increased in seven of the last 10 years"

          National had been in power during some of those years. Labour has only been in power since late 2017, not 6 years like you falsely claimed and they are trying to do something about it. You cannot discount National's time in govt because it doesn't suit your narrative. National left an appalling legacy.

          Re link, I don't think you understood it.
          “This Government has made a commitment to create a more effective criminal justice system and safer New Zealand. Achieving these long-term objectives will require systemic reform consistent with New Zealand values and aspirations, across the whole of the criminal justice system and the social sector. This will involve public engagement, partnerships with iwi/Māori and other community groups, legislative reform, investment in new services and operational change”
          So what’s wrong in that exactly?

          Tell me, when National were in govt, did you blame them for the “crime victims, frightened citizens and dairy owners” or have you conveniently forgotten the ram raids, the attacks on the dairies, liquor stores?
    • Incognito 10.2

      4 June 2022 at 2:22 pm

      You’ve been told before that you can argue your opinions but not your facts.

      Yes, but my point is they haven't been in the wheel house for the past 6 years – Labour has.

      You are wrong! Megan Woods said in a debate in Parliament 2 days ago that they have been in government for four and a half years.

      It's all about numbers.

      You raised it, you should put up the numbers, and it is that simple. You cannot hide behind “It is general knowledge and has been in the news time and again” and some vague stuff you may have heard from your “extended family in the mob”. The media megaphone is rarely a good source of facts but a very good source for hype & emotion.

      You are an unreliable commenter with regards to facts and supporting claims of facts. You must lift your game or your comments will be moderated.
      • Blade 10.2.1

        4 June 2022 at 4:12 pm

        Seems to me I may have misjudged the general knowledge of some on this blog.

        What I thought was apparent general knowledge, apparently is not, even though it's on the screens and in the papers nearly every week. I could have added many more links, but stopped in the name of brevity.

        https://www.economist.com/the-economist-explains/2018/02/14/why-new-zealand-has-so-many-gang-members

        https://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/gang-member-numbers-almost-double-around-the-country-in-five-years/MDXZ4BWDVO3P4I7CWWW6Y6UAPA/

        https://www.scoop.co.nz/stories/PA2105/S00150/more-than-8000-gang-members-in-new-zealand.htm

        https://www.stuff.co.nz/national/crime/300464553/gang-numbers-have-nearly-doubled-in-five-years-police-say

        https://www.newshub.co.nz/home/politics/2021/10/number-of-gang-members-on-national-list-rises-but-government-says-it-s-not-complete-picture.html

        https://www.national.org.nz/gang-numbers-surge-53-per-cent-under-labour

        https://www.act.org.nz/government_s_spin_on_gang_numbers_exposed

        ''You are wrong! Megan Woods said in a debate in Parliament 2 days ago that they have been in government for four and a half years.''

        Quite true. I took a liberty knowing nothing would improve under Labour. Even my 6 years will fall a few months short depending on the election. Peripheral issues count.

        ''Some vague stuff you may have heard from your “extended family in the mob”.

        It's not vague stuff. I have stated on this blog that in a change of tack, many chapters of the mob allow a patch to be bought. Of course there is still a probation period. That story will eventually come to light in MSM. Just like I was talking about gang numbers increasing roughly a year before MSM pick up the story.
        • Incognito 10.2.1.1

          4 June 2022 at 4:59 pm

          That’s a lovely selection of links some of which even contain actual useful numbers that allow us to distinguish hype & spin from fact, thank you.

          From a couple of your links it seems the steepest increase year-on-year in gang members was under National. Oops.

          You must not take no liberty with facts. You made up shit about how long Labour has been (not: will have been) in Government. We cannot mind-read and we should not have to second-guess either what twisted facts you construct to suit your narrative.

          It is vague and anecdotal stuff when you say “it’s all about numbers” and cannot produce anything other than what you may have heard at your family gatherings. You talk a lot of shit and your vague reckons are worth shit unless you can back them up. What will eventually be reported in and by the media is anybody’s guess and your predilections may come true or quite possibly not ever and at all.

          In any case, it is not about the general knowledge of some (but not all?) readers of this blog, it is about what you claim here and do or do not support when asked.

          I’m done with this convo, as I made myself crystal clear and don’t see any point in spending more time & effort on this.

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