Open mike 07/12/2012

Written By: - Date published: 6:00 am, December 7th, 2012 - 165 comments
Categories: open mike - Tags:

Open mike is your post. For announcements, general discussion, whatever you choose.

The usual rules of good behaviour apply (see the link to Policy in the banner).

Step right up to the mike…

165 comments on “Open mike 07/12/2012 ”

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  1. millsy 1
    7 December 2012 at 8:00 am

    This will be my last post on the Standard (and probably any other blog) for a while at least – not too sure when Ill be able to post again, but it wont be until well into the New Year at least (perhaps when everthing has settled down) — my personal circumstances look set to change in a rather dramatic way, and it is because of that I wont be in a position to contribute to this blog. Its been great chatting to you all, and I have enjoyed reading the thoughts of everyone here, though the right wingers always seem to want to put the boot in all the time.

    I think the left is in pretty good shape at the moment, and 2014 will see a Sixth Labour government, that is probably more to the left than Clark’s one was, though how far to the left remains to be seen. It all depends on how the asset sales referendum pans out, and the outcome of the PoA dispute. I see both of these as defining issues in this country — public/collective v individual/private, and security v flexibility.

    So, on that note, Farewell, Merry Christmas, Happy new year, and hope to catch up with you all in the New Year some time.

  2. Colonial Viper 2
    7 December 2012 at 8:34 am

    Yes kind Lefty souls, I’m bugging out too, returning at some future date (hopefully not too far away). IB has highlighted some reasons why, and the stuff he is talking about isn’t kidding around. The miserable and ill-conceived pressure they are putting on Cunliffe and his supporters in caucus, well they are now turning that on to ordinary party members as well. Organisations which find themselves in this state, well what more do I need to say.

    I shan’t be back for a wee while unless there is good reason 😎

    Good hunting to you all!

    • weka 2.1
      7 December 2012 at 8:42 am

      Fuck. Sorry to hear that. Take care CV.

    • karol 2.2
      7 December 2012 at 8:49 am

      Goodness.  It’s sounding like a Purge.  Well, as I’m not a member, I guess I remain free….. 

      Take care,CV. 

      • Jim Nald - Once Was National 2.2.1
        7 December 2012 at 9:09 am

        To those considering how to respond to something like a Purge, reflect on this:

        “In the end, we will remember not the words of our enemies, but the silence of our friends.”

      • lprent 2.2.2
        7 December 2012 at 10:40 am

        It is probably for the best at present CV. My abject apologies for not having the energy/time to talk to you (work is hectic).

        Well, as I’m not a member, I guess I remain free…..

        I never care.

        Quite frankly the party could do with my skills far more than I need the party. I’ve pretty well withdrawn from party activity over recent years as the environment has become more toxic.

        But I’d advise anyone who has used a pseudonym on Red Alert that could compromise them in real life to expect problems. The system operators over there are quite compromised, don’t act responsibly, and have been that way for some time. Quite simply they are not operating in a way that makes it safe to leave comments there unless you have cast-iron anonymity. Treat it like you would Whaleoil’s site.

        Which incidentally, is why you don’t see Red Alert on our feed

        • karol 2.2.2.1
          7 December 2012 at 11:34 am

          Actually, it wouldn’t ruin my life to be outed, especially as I am semi-retired.  It might be a bit tricky at work, but probably not totally damaging. My preference for a pseudonym is partly because, personally I’m a fairly shy person.

          Some people see it as a contradiction, that I can be very talkative and confident in a teaching or discussion context.  But socially, I am often the quiet person in a group.  I don’t enjoy being the centre of attention. 

    • Te Reo Putake 2.3
      7 December 2012 at 9:06 am

      Tempted as I am to suggest that maybe your father in law has finally snapped and told you to log off and go get a job, I’ll restrict myself to saying I too will miss your contributions, CV. You maintained an excellence balance between quantity and quality in your comments and there will be many a chastened rightie feeling relieved that you are signing off. Hope its not for too long.
       
      ps:  I’m looking forward to the inevitable post from PG on your departure over at Yawn NZ. What greater tribute could there be?

      • lprent 2.3.1
        7 December 2012 at 10:48 am

        Nope. This is an actual problem. There was a threat of “outing” by a MP that came up during the lobbying at conference. Subsequently it was raised by the same MP in the NZ Council as part of the lobbying to push Tamihere’s membership through.

        It fits the same pattern of behaviour as Shane Jones demonstrates. A caucus that does things less by focused strategy and more by stupid intimidation.

        I’d advise people to think carefully before putting comments at Red Alert if your identity can in anyway be traced back to you. I guess that is why the comments are dropping like a stone over there.

        It is quite unacceptable net behaviour.

        • thatguynz 2.3.1.1
          7 December 2012 at 11:03 am

          To be honest I struggle to see why there is a reticence amongst those in the know to name said MP.  Should we not all know the character of those that are possibly going to be representing us next term?
           
          (Sorry, I’m not singling you out Lynn, it was just your post I replied to).

          • lprent 2.3.1.1.1
            7 December 2012 at 11:26 am

            Figure it through in legal and political terms.

            It is quite a specific assertion of fact. To make it you’d have to be fairly confident that you have people who are willing to testify to its veracity. In this case that would probably happen.

            There is little point naming the person(s) when what is actually required is a change of collective behaviour by caucus in the way that they handle a blogs and their net presence. In particular the malfeasant transfer of information that should be private out of Red Alert and matching it with other information, like comments on this site.

            But there is a rather nice effect in not naming the person(s) concerned. It effectively throws the uncertainty about who did the malfeasance back on the whole of caucus – which is actually where the responsibility lies.

            And it is probably a whole lot more effective for caucus to deal with their own.

            • higherstandard 2.3.1.1.1.1
              7 December 2012 at 11:57 am

              “And it is probably a whole lot more effective for caucus to deal with their own.”

              Yes, because they’re not just a bunch of self interested troughers……………

            • Jackal 2.3.1.1.1.2
              7 December 2012 at 4:37 pm

              1Prent

              There was a threat of “outing” by a MP that came up during the lobbying at conference. Subsequently it was raised by the same MP in the NZ Council as part of the lobbying to push Tamihere’s membership through.

              You have to be fucking kidding! You’re saying a Labour MP threatened to out Colonial Viper and others because they were writing things the unnamed Labour MP didn’t like… And that the same threat was made to ensure John Tamihere was granted admission by the New Zealand Council of the Labour Party?

              Am I missing something here? How exactly is threatening to out Colonial Viper (unless he/she is a Labour party MP which I doubt) going to influence a party decision and why would the New Zealand Council of the Labour Party give a shit?

              There is little point naming the person(s) when what is actually required is a change of collective behaviour by caucus in the way that they handle a blogs and their net presence.

              Labour has been collectively saying they will out bloggers who are also members of the Labour party if they speak out against the party? I think you have lost it 1prent. That’s ridiculous! Can you actually point to some evidence of this?

              It effectively throws the uncertainty about who did the malfeasance back on the whole of caucus – which is actually where the responsibility lies.

              I have to disagree there… The responsible person is the one making the threats if that is actually the case?

              The problem here is that nothing will be resolved unless you name the person you allege has threatened to out party members and/or bloggers. There’s nothing wrong with saying who this is, because they’re a public person and it will be something they said that’s on the record. Highlight exactly what they said 1Prent and allow the the public to decide.

              Sayonara.

    • marsman 2.4
      7 December 2012 at 9:08 am

      What? Have I just joined a fa**ist Party?
      Sorry to see you go CV. Haere ra.

      • fender 2.4.1
        7 December 2012 at 1:49 pm

        Seems you have marsman, better go on the run and sleep with one eye open like CV.

        This shit STINKS and will really damage the Party once the MSM run with it.

        What FOOLS this bunch of Brown Shirts are in conducting a witch hunt. Once Hooten and his ilk put their spin on it I see a new poll showing a low 20% support for Labour very soon.

        Hope you can return soon CV, you will be missed.

    • Anne 2.5
      7 December 2012 at 9:20 am

      Hi CV

      Don’t stray too far. There’s that old saying “what goes around comes around” and I think there are a few people in the Labour caucus who are going to find out in due course how very true that saying is.

      I also think I may know the identity of the person who has turned on you and that person will pay a price for objectionable behaviour…

    • travellerev 2.6
      7 December 2012 at 9:27 am

      This is no good CV. I’m sure you have your reasons but this is just not on. If a party can bully it’s members into silence it has no place in a democratic Country.

    • mickysavage 2.7
      7 December 2012 at 9:33 am

      Double eek.  Come back soon CV.

    • Peter 2.8
      7 December 2012 at 9:40 am

      A damned shame, but highly reflective of the state of affairs with the NZLP currently. I too know the identity of the person involved in this, and there will be future consequences no doubt. Will be interesting to see what happens for me, blogging under my own name, in the future.

    • felix 2.10
      7 December 2012 at 9:42 am

      Let me say this very clearly: If I wanted a bunch of neanderthal, authoritarian control freaks to govern me I’d vote National.

      Seriously, Labour? Targeting and threatening individual party members to silence them?

      Anyone on the left who’s been thinking about supporting/voting Labour should be thinking really hard about this. What use are they going to be to us in govt? What good can possibly come from electing them if this is how they respond to criticism when they’re in opposition?

      Do you really think this bunch of cunts can be trusted with the full power of the state?

      Fuck that. Labour deserve to keep losing if they think this is what democracy looks like.

      • Te Reo Putake 2.10.1
        7 December 2012 at 9:52 am

        To be fair to Labour, there is no evidence presented that supports the claim of bullying. A few people are hinting about dark dealings, but nobody’s fronting with the facts. Name and shame, I reckon.

        • felix 2.10.1.1
          7 December 2012 at 10:00 am

          I’m about done with “fair to Labour”, sorry.

          • Te Reo Putake 2.10.1.1.1
            7 December 2012 at 10:12 am

            Are you also done with innocent until proven guilty, felix?

            • felix 2.10.1.1.1.1
              7 December 2012 at 10:35 am

              Nah but I’m done with pretending that every. single. one. of these bullshit events is either an isolated incident, part of a teething period, or a mishap unlikely to reoccur, and totally unrelated to a serious cancer embedded in the power structure.

              How about you TRP? Are you done with keeping your head up your arse?

              • Te Reo Putake …
                7 December 2012 at 11:41 am

                What events, felix? All we have is some vague accusations about an unnamed individual MP having a brain fart and possibility unrelated matters concerning a couple of individuals ceasing blogging that are being conflated into the size of a cow. I’m asking for people to put up some evidence to back their claims. The people making the claims are all anonymous, so there should be no comeback on them opening up.

                What’s the worst the Labour Party can do to an off-message member anyway? Stop sending the begging letters? Stop asking them to stand on street corners waving signs, or doorknocking, or spending evenings calling for votes? It’s terrifying stuff, indeed.

                • felix …
                  8 December 2012 at 7:19 am

                  lol,what events?

                  I’m talking about pretty much everything the Labour leadership has done for the last four years. And at every turn, the refrain is the same: ‘Give them a chance’, and ‘They probably didn’t mean it’, and now your new hilarious one ‘Where’s the evidence that they’re a pack of untrustworthy morons apart from everything they say and do?’

                  I have no reason to doubt what Irish and Lynn and CV are saying. The Labour leadership, on the other hand…

                  Thanks for answering the question though, looks like you’re going to need your meals sent up there.

                  • Te Reo Putake …
                    8 December 2012 at 8:11 am

                    Thanks for clarifying felix. I thought you were talking about the specific events of the day, but apparently you were citing the vibe.
                    Interesting arse fixation, btw. Are you getting help for it?

                    • felixviper …
                      8 December 2012 at 8:19 am

                      Sure TRP, nothing to see here.

                      Nothing has happened in the last few days or the last few years that would cause anyone any concern about the Labour party leadership.

                      Keep telling yourself that mate. I’ll have your usual breakfast sent up right away.

                    • Te Reo Putake …
                      8 December 2012 at 8:31 am

                      You’re in denial, felix. But misinterpreting my position on this matter and the wider question of the leadership of the party over the last four years makes you feel good about yourself, its fine by me. I like to spread a little sunshine everywhere I go.

                    • felixviper …
                      8 December 2012 at 8:40 am

                      Oh good, I was hoping I was misinterpreting you and you hadn’t really spent the whole thread denying the bleeding obvious.

                      Glad to hear it.

                    • Te Reo Viper …
                      8 December 2012 at 8:50 am

                      Apology accepted. For the record, I never denied anything; the whole thrust of my questions was to establish the truth. I now know the facts, via a private source, but I still don’t know why the Standard won’t publish the full story, because it really is appalling behaviour by a half witted bully of an MP. 
                       
                      However, I’m going to assume the lack of detail is to protect the victim/s and leave it at that. But you should know that this incident leaves me very angry indeed and I firmly believe the MP concerned should be de-selected and expelled from the party.

                    • felixviper …
                      9 December 2012 at 9:00 am

                      I didn’t apologise, but that’s only because I’m not the one who was wrong and kind of a dick about it.

              • QoTViper …
                8 December 2012 at 1:27 pm

                It’s like the marketing department of Hell Pizza. “Oh, what, we gratuitously offended another oppressed group in our quest to look edgy, and it’s blown up in our faces? Oh, that was just one random guy on our team. Honest. A completely different random guy to the random guys we blamed for the last dozen or so gratuitously-offensive fuckups.”

        • Anne 2.10.1.2
          7 December 2012 at 10:55 am

          Name and shame, I reckon.

          Having once been on the receiving end of bullying behaviour by people in positions of power and/or influence, I know how hard it is to name and shame. These bullies can be in a position to destroy a person’s personal life, career or business and get away with it because others are too scared to stand up to them.

          It is up to the Labour leader – or someone else in a very senior position – to swiftly stamp it out.

          • Rhinocrates 2.10.1.2.1
            7 December 2012 at 4:23 pm

            Ha, I know of what you speak, all too well. The out of court settlement was veeeerrry nice, but damn it was hard.

            (and this is making Brian Edwards look a right tosser now.)

          • Neoleftie friend in arms of CV 2.10.1.2.2
            8 December 2012 at 1:36 pm

            Blinded by the obvious are you or are you looking at the rising son.

        • lprent 2.10.1.3
          7 December 2012 at 10:56 am

          TRP: There is more than sufficient evidence. At least for me.

          The lobbying at the conference which is where this round of it seemed to have started was pretty intense and I’ve had quite a four people independently describing it to me.

          The NZ Council debate is something that I have had several direct and indirect sources on.

          And the leakage problems from Red Alert were something that I described (ummm) last year in a post after the rumour started flying around that the outing leakages were coming from here.

          I’d have to say that Red Alert would have to now be considered to be a complete and utter failure because some numpties never bothered to learn about net culture.

          • weka 2.10.1.3.1
            7 December 2012 at 11:32 am

            Ok, did I understand that right – the people who run Red Alert are using things like IPs and email addresses to out commenters using pseudonyms? eg the sysop is passing those details on to caucus or other people high up in the Labour party, and that information is being used to harass or in some way control members?

            • Peter 2.10.1.3.1.1
              7 December 2012 at 11:45 am

              Nah, it’s more that some MPs are spending a large amount of their time trawling through blogs, and Facebook etc, and then intimidating members based on what they say, particularly if it doesn’t agree with them. I don’t know if its an overt strategy or policy of NZ Council, but it’s certainly a policy of about 3-4 core MPs, and there may even be a a rogue one in there who can’t help themselves.

              It’s not beyond fixing, but the methods to fix it might be quite challenging.

              • Idiot/Savant …
                9 December 2012 at 12:55 am

                Nah, it’s more that some MPs are spending a large amount of their time trawling through blogs, and Facebook etc, and then intimidating members based on what they say, particularly if it doesn’t agree with them.

                Don’t they have better things to do? Like, say, being an effective opposition?

                • QoTViper …
                  9 December 2012 at 11:16 am

                  But I/S, how can they be an effective opposition if people keep pointing out that they’re not being an effective opposition?

                  The answer is clearly to silence all critics. Then no one will say they’re not an effective opposition, ergo they’ll be the best opposition ever!

          • Te Reo Putake 2.10.1.3.2
            7 December 2012 at 11:49 am

            Hi, LP.

            If you have more than enough evidence, why aren’t you posting it? This guilt by accusation stuff is more suited to WO (or, in recent days, NZF). If there is some substance, lets see it. My apologies to all who don’t get where I’m coming from, but if there is bullying, then the bully needs to be named and shamed. If you do not confront the bully, you are enabling the bully.

            • Peter 2.10.1.3.2.1
              7 December 2012 at 12:59 pm

              I have the evidence, as do others. It exists, and if the behaviour doesn’t stop, it may just come out.

              • Te Reo Putake …
                7 December 2012 at 1:11 pm

                Dude, that is beyond weak. Put up the evidence, if it exists. I’m starting to think it doesn’t, because I can see no logical reason why it has to be hidden. There is no downside to having the courage of your convictions, Peter. and the last time I looked at the policy of The Standard, making assertions without being able to substantiate them is considered poor form.

                • Peter …
                  7 December 2012 at 1:27 pm

                  You are free to believe whatever you like, that’s one of the privileges of living in a country that values religious freedom.

                  • Te Reo Putake …
                    7 December 2012 at 1:37 pm

                    Nope, the ball is in your court. You’re the one making the claim, its up to you to back it up. You won’t, or, more likely, you can’t.

                    And the name on your passport is not ‘Peter’. That may be one of your names, but only Cher, Madonna and God can claim to be recognized on a single name. And the latter can’t even do that, because He doesn’t exist. So yes, your excuses are weak, ‘Peter’, but as you say the name of the MP has been mentioned already, you can show us how not weak you are by confirming it.

                    • Te Reo Putake …
                      7 December 2012 at 2:03 pm

                      Just for the record: my response above was to a comment from ‘Peter’ that he had the evidence, but he wasn’t go to release it and that the the ‘ball was in their court’. He has since chickened out and deleted the statement, replacing it with the ‘religion’ comment instead. So, it appears that Peter is both a semi-anonymous coward and a fantasist.

                    • Peter …
                      7 December 2012 at 2:22 pm

                      Hilarious. Most people who’ve hung around the Labour Party know who I am. But for the record, my name is Peter Wilson, I was a former party member, LEC member, Otago University youth branch founder and president, Otago/Southland Labour regional council chairman for three years. I’ve chaired list conferences, fought on four campaign committees, including two as campaign manager in tough tory blue country. I have also worked in paid employment for a number of MPs, including the MP in question today.

                      That should be enough.

                    • Te Reo Putake …
                      7 December 2012 at 2:27 pm

                      Nope, not even close to enough. I wasn’t asking for your name, or bone fides, I was asking for the evidence. Which you still haven’t provided.

                      Peter, you, IB and LP are all credible people as far as I’m concerned. And that makes your inability to back up your claims all the more puzzling.

                    • Blue …
                      7 December 2012 at 3:14 pm

                      If you do not confront the bully, you are enabling the bully.

                      Don’t mind if I do, TRP. You called Peter a “semi-anonymous coward”, attacking him for being anonymous and inferring that such cast doubt on his credibility. He told you exactly who he is, and that he has the credentials to know what he is talking about.

                      Peter, you, IB and LP are all credible people as far as I’m concerned. And that makes your inability to back up your claims all the more puzzling.

                      You pretend to have faith in their credibility while calling them all liars? Sweet. All the people you have named have told you the situation – they are reluctant for a variety of reasons to post what they know publicly.

                      You might disagree and think there is no legitimate reason for withholding this information, but last time I checked trying to bully people into doing things that make them uncomfortable is a bad thing.

                    • Jackal …
                      9 December 2012 at 12:45 pm

                      I’ll tell you why I think this is nothing more than fantasy Blue…

                      The lobbying at the conference which is where this round of it seemed to have started was pretty intense and I’ve had quite a four people independently describing it to me.

                      That’s a damn slow grape vine 1prent has got growing there… Wasn’t the conference like three weeks ago?

                      and that he has the credentials to know what he is talking about.

                      There’s an unwritten rule in blogging, and moreso in journalism, that you need to be able to verify and back up your claims. That’s the basic difference between good journalism and propaganda.

                      Without some evidence of these claims, they remain mere speculation and therefore best ignored.

                      Being that the MSM hasn’t picked up this story either confirms that there’s no actual evidence to base these claims on, being that Labour would likely make a formal complaint to the Press Council if such claims were published in the MSM and were untrue. They don’t have the same opportunity with blogs though because those publication laws don’t apply. However there’s such a thing as good ethical standards with blogs, and I have to agree with Te Reo Putake that such baseless claims are more suitable to WO. Slater might have a large readership, but how much credibility does he actually have? Hint: the answer is not a lot.

                      Te Reo Putake is correct, IB, LP and PW are all credible commentators… However they do their credibility no favours at all by making claims they cannot back up with evidence. The blogger’s who have posted on such things as if they’re fact are also in danger of losing their credibility. Clearly attempting to damage Labour with unsubstantiated gossip isn’t worth the damage caused to your own standing.

                  • Te Reo Putake …
                    7 December 2012 at 3:23 pm

                    Point missed, blue. There is no reason why the evidence should be suppressed. Therefore, it is possible, even likely, that the evidence does not exist. IB, LP and PW are credible people, hence my amazement at their singular failure to back up their position. It’s not bullying to ask people who are slagging off the Labour Party by claiming bullying to prove it. It’s their claim and at the moment, it looks like total BS.

                    If, as you say, there are a variety of reasons why their claims cannot be substantiated, they should say so. Peter wasn’t a coward for his anonymity, he was a coward for deleting a comment he wrote, then later regretted. He remains a credible person, in my eyes, just not as credible as he was a few hours ago.

                    • Peter …
                      7 December 2012 at 3:51 pm

                      I pulled that last comment on reflection actually, I had already received cease and desist messages privately. I don’t have the time for a legal battle, and I know that the people involved might push it that far. There are other ways of handling it.

                    • thatviperishguynz …
                      7 December 2012 at 4:03 pm

                      Peter, how could you get cease and desist messages when the LP MP’s don’t read The Standard anyway?? 😉
                       
                      Rhetorical question mate – just joshing 🙂

                  • mickyviper in solidarity …
                    7 December 2012 at 5:13 pm

                    TRP.

                    Some things are better not debated publicly. 

      • lprent 2.10.2
        7 December 2012 at 10:27 am

        It isn’t really Labour that has the problem – the party is trying valiantly to update its century old structures. It is the Labour caucus.

      • muzza 2.10.3
        7 December 2012 at 12:05 pm

        So this is how democracy operates does it!

        Should this actually be what is happening, it would seem to indicate there is much deeper problems flowing through those who masquerade, and so called NZ’ers!

        I have to agree with Felix, this stinks, its not isolated, nor is it in anyway in the interests of NZ, or its people!

    • travellerev 2.11
      7 December 2012 at 9:48 am

      CV, I’d love to have a 101 on this subject. Off the record off course!

    • muzza 2.12
      7 December 2012 at 9:59 am

      Something does not add up here…

      Why would you be a member anyway? I’ve noticed a change of tone/content of your posts over about the past month or so, and actually wondered if someone else was writing for you…

    • higherstandard 2.13
      7 December 2012 at 10:03 am

      Just when I thought NZ cricket had the most retarded governance in NZ, Labour appear to have trumped even them with this latest buffoonery.

      CV just come back under another handle you did it post loota do it again and keep applying the blowtorch I don’t agree with you most of the time but you are entitled to your opinion – damn their eyes one and all the troughing sacks of shit.

      • lprent 2.13.1
        7 December 2012 at 11:06 am

        CV just come back under another handle you did it post loota do it again and keep applying the blowtorch I don’t agree with you most of the time but you are entitled to your opinion – damn their eyes one and all the troughing sacks of shit.

        Yep. Please do, but take a while first. In fact I’ll give you permission to use as many pseudonyms as you wish.

        but I’d suggest a few things to do. You’ll have to shift your writing style between the identities. Your IP’s are quite distinctive, it’d pay to get them changed.

        In the meantime there are a few people who just made it to my rather short shit-list for damage to the local net.

      • OneTrackViper 2.13.2
        7 December 2012 at 6:37 pm

        +1

    • Another Viper 2.14
      7 December 2012 at 10:53 am

      Perhaps we show solidarity with CV by including Viper in new pseudonyms.
      Clare has him in her sights and Tim Barnett et al will execute on her wishes.
      Don’t doubt the seriousness of the behaviour of Curran Hipkins Robertson and Ardern.
      They are all graduates of the Parliamentry Party offices.
      Controlling from the centre is what they were trained to do.
      That is why they found the membership’s behaviour at conference so repugnant.
      That is why they have failed to develop RedAlert.
      That is why they cannot cope with the Standatd.
      That is why they choose Shearer as their Leader.
      That is why we are loosing out in electorates associated with them.
      That is why we will loose the 2014 election unless we put matters right immediately.

      • mickyviper in solidarity 2.14.1
        7 December 2012 at 1:21 pm

        Good idea AV.  Lets all be vipers for a day 🙂

        • fender/same sentiment less eloquent Viper 2.14.1.1
          7 December 2012 at 2:13 pm

          Good idea but only a day?

          I predict a viral video titled “Labour have lost the plot” doing the rounds shortly.

          • prism 2.14.1.1.1
            7 December 2012 at 3:54 pm

            How about a sort of music video from that swing band of eloquent bloggers Colonial Viper, Bored and Marty G. Perhaps some rap or purloined Tom Lehrer.

        • grumpy viper 2.14.1.2
          7 December 2012 at 2:16 pm

          signing in………..

        • dancervipereke 2.14.1.3
          7 December 2012 at 9:26 pm

          It just astounds me how dumb these MPs have been. 

          Labour 2012 = Liberal 1912 ?  

          • Neoleftie viper 2.14.1.3.1
            7 December 2012 at 11:32 pm

            Knives knives everywhere where to hide our friend CV but amongst his friends.
            I fictional poem…
            I knew a girl called um Clare.
            All fat and old and well a haggard wellywood drunk was she.
            Played with her raincoat and and her pet duck.
            Upto no good, just one of the old hasbeen.
            Fly here there and even to pari on a whim.
            Tooted jee me lucky.
            Well she was nt that bright and um um ahhhh a lot
            But at the start it was no I’m not interested in knives and now after years trained by the best of the left poor dear Clare come back for the rest.
            Rest in peace cv.

      • Adele Te Viper 2.14.2
        7 December 2012 at 10:59 pm

        Colonial Viper

        Hopefully your battlestar is simply parked up awaiting new rims.

    • Ennui in Requiem 2.15
      7 December 2012 at 11:34 am

      CV, come back alive and well, have enjoyed you over the years. I killed Bored for a different reason (but very similar: got fed up with fighting totalitarians on my own side), his spirit is allowed out of Purgatory for very limited haunting opportunities. Have a superb Christmas.

      • Travellerev, another Colonial Viper 2.15.1
        7 December 2012 at 12:44 pm

        Isn’t it funny though, only last week people were talking about how bloggers were cowards for not giving their real name and here we have a situation in which a political party is bullying its members into silence and threatening to “out” them in an attempt to stifle dissent. What’s next? You can only vote if you give your name of the party or person you will be voting for?

        What it proves is that in order for a democratic society to function it is of the utmost importance to get this dissent out regardless of the manner in which this is done and that includes anonymity.

        We vote anonymously because that safeguards us from being manipulated into voting the preferred candidate from the biggest bullies and we should be free to criticize anonymously  for the very same reason because that is the only way we can voice our concerns when there are idjits like this “anonimous” MP throwing their weight around trying to bullyi everybody into compliance and I for one hope someone will out the bastard because he has no place in a democratic party

    • Ad 2.16
      7 December 2012 at 12:06 pm

      Very sad.

      I will miss you.

      I too am feeling that chill wind of public outing.

      Truly hope you and Millsy come back.

    • Olwyn 2.17
      7 December 2012 at 12:08 pm

      This is just alarming! I hope you are not silenced for too long CV.

    • prism 2.18
      7 December 2012 at 12:28 pm

      CV leaving us – Nooooooooooooooooooooo. And what is the good reason pray? You can’t desert us making vague comments like that. First Bored and now you. I keep hoping that someone will read and accept some microcosm of what I say so I keep on throwing my pearls before the troops, or should I say rose petals for them to trample on? (My opinion.)

      You have been part of a revolt trying to puncture the complacency of centrist Labour, no wonder they find us revolting. The punctured balloon is now rushing round the room making a loud farting noise. Someone needs to be around to blow up a new balloon. Keep some breath for after Christmas and New Year and start the 2013 fun CV.

    • Lanthanide 2.19
      7 December 2012 at 12:47 pm

      Late to the party, but adding my 2c, hoping you’ll make it back sometime soonish.

      • grumpy viper 2.19.1
        7 December 2012 at 2:15 pm

        Very seldom see eye to eye with CV but his comments are always worth reading, unlike the dead arse policy repeaters often found here.

    • Just viping 2.20
      7 December 2012 at 2:21 pm

      Kia kaha CV.
      Will look into when a particular polly is having her electorate clinic………

      I have these wild, radical, ideas about freedom of speech and democracy. Madness, I know but i can’t seem to give them up.

      • Anne Viper 2.20.1
        7 December 2012 at 4:11 pm

        The “madness” is coming from the other side of the fence.

        There are enough democratically inclined MPs in the Labour caucus to put this loopy behaviour to rest once and for all. Please do it? Then members will have little to complain about – including me.

      • Neoleftie friend in arms of CV 2.20.2
        9 December 2012 at 8:07 pm

        Perhap I will accompany you if you wish.
        I have my tshirt printed now and a tattoo tut says free CV.

    • McFlock 2.21
      7 December 2012 at 2:51 pm

      suck. You’ll be missed. 
           
      Although my blood pressure might improve 😉 

    • Treetop 2.22
      7 December 2012 at 3:55 pm

      The alleged Labour caucus mole/s need to go away and have a good hard think about freedom of speech and what democracy is.

      I have been outspoken regarding wanting Cunliffe to be leader and Shearer to be deputy leader because this is my personal view on the Labour party easily winning the next election. Shearer needs to come out and say that intimidating bloggers is intolerable and to sort out the caucus mole/s.

      I have always supported the Labour party on election day and the Labour party needs to learn that they have my loyality even though the leadership issue has not gone as I wanted it to.

      It is going to be a bit lonely without CV and Millsy and I miss Vicky32.

      • karol 2.22.1
        7 December 2012 at 4:18 pm

        I ‘m pretty appalled by this LP caucus leadership behaviour.  I will continue to vote Green until Labour become a truly democratic left wing party again.  It’s a bit worrying, though, as to what sort of government leadership the Green Party could end up in coalition with.

    • Rhinocrates 2.23
      7 December 2012 at 4:20 pm

      Indeed, sorry to see you go CV and Millsy – hope you’re back soon. And my sympathies for you in what you seem to appear to be implying you might hypotheically – so to speak – be enduring. Or not.

    • Pete 2.24
      7 December 2012 at 4:26 pm

      Good luck, CV.

    • Travellerev, another Colonial Viper 2.25
      7 December 2012 at 5:21 pm

      Oh, and please keep the education on 911 up where you’re going too!

    • the pigman 2.26
      7 December 2012 at 8:26 pm

      Why not just adopt a new moniker til the heat is off? I recently switched from using my real name in protest against the criticism of “anonymous bloggers” 😀

      Be prepared for some ritualised “jumping in” though – this place is a bit like the Headhunters, after all 😉

    • rosy 2.27
      7 December 2012 at 10:11 pm

      Will miss you CV. Looking forward to reading your comments again when all this craziness is over. Take care.

    • QoT 2.28
      7 December 2012 at 10:19 pm

      This is frankly shit, CV. Not your decision, but being made to feel it’s one you have to make because some people who should be champions of democracy (since they live and die by it) have decided they can’t handle criticism.

      There’s plenty we don’t agree on but you’re usually (i.e. when not disagreeing with me :P) a damn fine commenter on this blog and your presence will be missed.

    • Colonic Wiper 2.29
      7 December 2012 at 10:27 pm

      this is the end
      beautiful friend

      this is the end
      my only friend , the end

    • Jenny 2.30
      7 December 2012 at 11:34 pm

      Once legitimacy is lost no matter what tactics are employed whether bureaucratic or violent. For leaders who lose their legitimacy in the eyes of their people it is only a matter of time.

      Such desperate tactics are not those of strong leadership, (no matter what the MSM tell us) but of weak leadership.

      Kia kaha CV. Ka whawhai tonu matou, Ake Ake Ake

      I know that you will heed the words and example of Rewi Maniapoto and continue fighting on the battle ground of your choosing.

      Good luck habibi.

      See you on the picket line.

      • Neoleftie viper 2.30.1
        8 December 2012 at 12:00 am

        More like on the barracades.
        Wave the standard fly it high.
        Here come all the vipers united and determined.
        A collective you will see, a movement of justice of faith of friends and of power.
        Once small growing big,
        Live long cv and prosper

        • Jenny 2.30.1.1
          8 December 2012 at 6:15 am

          More like on the barracades.

          Neoleftie viper

          Quite possibly. I see that Labour Party Mayor Len Brown and his council are still determined to evict the Maritime Union from the Ports of Auckland. This despite the union making massive concessions in wages and conditions.

          • Neoleftie maybe CV maybe not 2.30.1.1.1
            8 December 2012 at 6:44 am

            Oh did they now.
            well if we get a oil induced big mother crunch it might be the barricades to get some progress.
            Can’t see any of this shower ( labour ) working thru a crisis.

            Another angle is that upon the TS it would appear that most um members are agreeing on one main thread – that we need a new direction focused on real and meaningful change and betterment for people that is a holistic systematic approach…a new way.
            A new way forward, progress that is linked to green, brown and red ideology. Blue is dead.so

            This is our barricade where we have raised the flag and where our voices get heard.
            We learn as a group, we debate and comment freely, and in a growing manner we are becoming more heard.
            History and recent event have shown that united voices, a movement, can cause change.
            So to the barricades I say.
            Disclaimer. TS is a blog, has no opinion or motive but solely as a vehicle for individual to express themselves in a legal and considered manner.

            But like minded individual historically have shaped events, challenged the status quo and there works deeds and action in a collective manner created a focal point of change.

    • BLiP Viper 2.31
      8 December 2012 at 12:49 am

      .

      Sorry to see you go . . . also this.

    • xtasy 2.32
      8 December 2012 at 1:28 am

      CV – I am bothered! This is a shocker to me. Your posts have been amongst the most respected ones I read on TS. I know I am not at all easy, and I have my health and other issues too, deservedly at times having been criticised by some.

      I am shit worried about what is going on in Labour and the left as such.

      Yes, I find it hard to believe what is going on.

      Hang in there, same as millsy and others, never give up, as the challenge must be taken on the bloody chin. They are bloody asking for it.

      All the best!

    • xtasy 2.33
      8 December 2012 at 1:32 am

      I repeat: It is time for a NEW left party, inclusive enough and robust enough, to take on the challenge from the rotten right of spectrum NatZies. Take a break and think about it, all yours that have politics of fairness and justice at heart. It must be dared and done, we get nowhere with the present lot!

      • Descendant Of Smith 2.33.1
        8 December 2012 at 6:47 am

        Thanks for your comments the other day. I’m pleased you’re having a better day. Hang in there.

        I’m thinking the option may not necessarily a party in the traditional sense but a coalition of independent left wing politicians where each vote is similar to every vote being a conscience vote.

        This might allow a much more diverse range of left-wing views in parliament.

        I’d be happy to have such left-wing diversity in parliament.

    • MrSmith 2.34
      8 December 2012 at 1:23 pm

      Sorry to hear this CV, you & Millsy will be missed, hurry back.

  3. bad12 3
    7 December 2012 at 8:57 am

    A headline gleaned off of this morning’s National Radio, Starbucks the international coffee chain have agreed to pay more tax in Britain,

    The interesting bit here is that Starbucks have ‘agreed’ to pay more tax, what this is really highlighting is that the Neo-Liberal thieves of international business are sharing the bed with the Neo-Liberal weaklings of British politics,(guess who’s on top),

    Wouldn’t the proper headline be that Starbucks had had all it’s profits of the past decade seized by the British Government and had been ordered to pay it’s fair share of taxation in the future,(you can bet the same rorts have been, and are, happening here in New Zealand),

    Yesterday’s headline from the same place, (Radio NZ), told of a couple of the bigger electronic manufacturers who had been spanked by the European Union for ‘price fixing’ on Cathode Tubes, (apparently the most expensive bit in ya TV or laptop),

    The participants in that particular rort have apparently been for the past decade artificially bumping up the price of that particular piece of electronic gear in a little closed shop price fixing scam much the same as the banks were ‘fixing’ the interest rates they charged,

    We are all as consumers effected by these multi-national rorts from tax avoidance to price fixing, its you and me that pay for this criminality, this is the true face of so called ‘self regulating’ business be it local or international…

    • karol 3.1
      7 December 2012 at 9:10 am

      The report I saw on Al Jazeera this morning, identified customer feedback as the reason for the change: meaning, I guess, Starbucks are afraid of losing customers and will pay as little extra tax as they can get away with.

      The revelations led to calls for a boycott of the store and protests at its branches, and the company’s Chief Financial Officer Troy Alstead was called to give evidence to a parliamentary committee.

      Starbucks repeated on Sunday that it had always complied with British tax laws and blamed its low tax payments on a tough operating environment in the UK.
       
      However, a spokeswoman added in an emailed statement that the public mood had caused the company to reconsider its tax arrangements, which include intercompany royalty and interest payments that reduce the UK unit’s taxable profit.
       
      “We have listened to feedback from our customers and employees, and understand that to maintain and further build public trust we need to do more,” she said.  

      • bad12 3.1.1
        7 December 2012 at 9:17 am

        Or, oooops we got caught rorting the British taxman,(and every English person who HAS to pay tax),

        Better roll over and pretend contrition and when the heat dies down we can get back to business as usual…

    • prism 3.2
      7 December 2012 at 12:36 pm

      bad12
      Further to that google was implicated. They and other similar coys do not intend to change their payment regime as it is legal. The politicians trying to encourage big business to their shores!

      And big business will just fill up their longboats with loot and return to their bases with it. And do what? They have visions like Kubla Khan no doubt – In Xanadu did Kubla Khan, A stately pleasure-dome decree:

      • bad12 3.2.1
        7 December 2012 at 3:22 pm

        Yeah, i am sure that far more than just Google and Starbucks are involved in that particular tax-scam,

        Here we have the Neo-liberal apologists doing the hand wringing thing describing tax-avoidance as ‘immoral’ but not illegal so what can they do,

        The above was basically the ‘Hairdo from Ohariu’s’ response to questions put to Him recently on New Zealand’s estimated 7 billion dollars of annual avoidance and evasion of due taxation which Dunne as Revenue Minister in quite a few Governments has happily overseen,

        When faced with such an attitude from Government Ministers anyone suddenly robbred of the power of speech except for the muttered word f**k would have to be forgiven because when you count the numbers we would have NO Government debt problem if those involved in the ‘immoral’ avoidance of taxation were criminalized and made to pay their due taxation….

        • prism 3.2.1.1
          7 December 2012 at 3:47 pm

          The commonsense man sure has a lot of people fooled. The electorate think he tries to make commonsense decisions about policy, in fact the commonsense all relates to the question ‘Is this good for P Dunne?’. It’s commonsense to look after No.1, who else will?
          Smart trick St Peter.

    • Draco T Bastard 3.3
      7 December 2012 at 5:57 pm

      (you can bet the same rorts have been, and are, happening here in New Zealand),

      Considering the fact that NZ has become a tax haven we’ll be one of the countries that all those taxes that the multinational’s aren’t paying are going through.

      • kiwicommie 3.3.1
        7 December 2012 at 6:53 pm

        Don’t start, I am struggling to not vomit already. 😉

      • prism 3.3.2
        7 December 2012 at 7:49 pm

        DTB
        Going through. Sounds like diahrroea and that leads to malnutrition because the food doesn’t stay long enough to be absorbed and used by the body. Fast money passing through tax havens has much the same effect on the country I should think.

        What effect would such fast money have on our exchange rate? Would it be an advantage to the financial guys here to have a high exchange rate or not I wonder? Would this be one of the reasons why we can never play around with our exchange rate? Presumably if it wasn’t so stable it wouldn’t be so attractive.

  4. travellerev 4
    7 December 2012 at 9:32 am

    The Cullen fund is the most innovative sovereign fund in the world. Why does that not make me feel confident about the fund? Could be because of this for starters:

    Neil Williams, Chief Investment Advisor and Head of Strategic Tilting
    Neil joined the Guardians in 2008 from UBS Global Asset Management in London where he was Global Head of Asset Allocation and a Managing Director in Global Investment Solutions.  Neil was previously Chief Global Strategist, Executive Director for Goldman Sachs International (London).

    And perhaps this

    • muzza 4.1
      7 December 2012 at 10:32 am

      Use of the words innovate/innovative can be found all over the various sectors these days, and concerningly the public sector, having been taken over by consultants, is using them braordly.

      One can take it as finding new ways to steal, rip off and deceive the public, is all those words mean.

      The fund will be in serious trouble, like everything else where the words innovate/innovative, can be seen, heard or read!

    • Draco T Bastard 4.2
      7 December 2012 at 9:01 pm

      When people start using the words innovate.innovative in conjunction with finance then I’d expect that company/sovereign fund to be headed for a crash. The innovation in the finance sector was, after all, a major cause of the GFC.

  5. fatty 5
    7 December 2012 at 12:21 pm

    If you are like me and trying to get your head around the TPP scam, the past two episodes of Citizen A have been worth a watch. Bomber has had Jane Kelsey on, as well as other new guests.
    The 29th Nov & the 6th Dec episodes have focused solely on the TPP – stream them here

    Also, the last issue of Werewolf focuses on the TPP…Gordon Campbell & Co doing their thing (real journalists)

  6. prism 6
    7 December 2012 at 12:41 pm

    The garden can be soothing and productive for fevered polly watchers but you should watch your back! No-one but you will do the damage here if you aren’t careful of strenuous exercise.
    Some good advice –
    http://www.telegraph.co.uk/gardening/5011927/Spring-gardening-is-a-dangerous-sport-claim-doctors.html

  7. Murray Olsen 7
    7 December 2012 at 3:38 pm

    In my own experience, the lack of instinctive democracy among the Labour hierarchy was demonstrated by Jim Anderton’s approach to running the NLP and the Alliance. Jim and a few others seemed far more interested in building a monolithic authoritarian structure than in actually changing anything. The activists found themselves either burned out or making accomodations, and an opportunity was lost. This behaviour is why the only hope I have for Labour is that they will become a junior coalition partner in a Green/Mana government and learn once again why they exist. My fear is that many of those at the centre of things would prefer going into a government of “National Unity” or some other Bonapartist rubbish in order to keep the radicals at bay.

    • prism 7.1
      7 December 2012 at 3:43 pm

      And themselves in the House they get paid to feel comfortable in, along with their slippers and tots of alcohol or lattes.

    • xtasy 7.2
      8 December 2012 at 1:36 am

      Yes, I love that: “Junior partner”, that is how it perhaps rather should be with the lot that sit on their backsides and cushioned chairs now.

  8. Pete 8
    7 December 2012 at 4:18 pm

    Prominent Tauranga man charged with assault.

    Anything else I might say on this would purely be idle speculation and possibly highly defamatory. I have no knowledge – directly or indirectly – of the case, but I feel the story itself is important to take note of. I would caution against any speculation here.

    • weka 8.1
      7 December 2012 at 4:35 pm

      Why is it important to take note of if we don’t know who the man is?

      • Pete 8.1.1
        7 December 2012 at 4:39 pm

        Legally, I can’t even drop hints on what my line of thinking is.

        • vto 8.1.1.1
          7 December 2012 at 4:46 pm

          Piss off. I reckon it could be Bob the Builder, that ex-MP. Or maybe even that ding-dong Simon Bridges. Or what about Winston Peters or isn’t that goofy weatherman MP Brendan Horan from the Mount?

          Ffs, I know some secrets too but I couldn’t possibly tell anyone…..

          just as well the internet only exists in the ether eh what.

          • Treetop 8.1.1.1.1
            7 December 2012 at 5:20 pm

            You missed the GCSB on the list or an alien from planet Key!

            • Treetop 8.1.1.1.1.1
              7 December 2012 at 5:34 pm

              I did not realise that a 12 year old was assaulted and that they have physical injuries and nightmares, I apologise for my comment as I am against physical violence especially when children are harmed.

        • McFlock 8.1.1.2
          7 December 2012 at 5:24 pm

          personally I don’t see the point to your comments.
          Either the guy gets done for something serious and we find out in good time, or he’s not found guilty of anything serious and keeps name suppression because there’s no public interest in knowing that he did or didn’t do something that’s not serious in the first place. And by the nature of name suppression, the guy might just be a provincial used car salesman or gp.
               
          Methinks your linking and thinking is a touch premature. 

          • Anne viper 8.1.1.2.1
            7 December 2012 at 6:47 pm

            Methinks your linking and thinking is a touch premature.

            Except that it has been reported on the NZ Herald website which suggests the man is also prominent outside of Tauranga.

        • the pigviper 8.1.1.3
          8 December 2012 at 12:47 am

          Goodness me, Paul Mabey QC representing two prominent Tauranga professionals in one week!

          Unless… ?

  9. the pigman 9
    7 December 2012 at 8:23 pm

    Well, as the recent slaughter in Gaza drops off the MSM narrative completely, I thought it might be timely to share this link: http://mondoweiss.net/2012/12/its-time-for-the-media-to-talk-about-zionism.html regarding the distinction between anti-Zionism and anti-Semitism.

    I remember talking to one of my best friends (a Russian jew) about 12 years ago about the fact that I was anti-Zionist but that it didn’t make me an anti-Semite. He immediately dismissed it and lumped me in with the drive-the-Israelis-into-the-sea brigade (which I am increasingly seeing as more of a figment of Israel’s collective imagination than a genuine goal of Arabic people).

    I think though that it’s important that people realise that it’s OK to be anti-Zionist and that they shouldn’t feel guilty about speaking out against the Zionist expansionism of the Israeli state. Succinct but articulate article, unlike this post 😉

  10. Draco T Bastard 10
    7 December 2012 at 9:11 pm

    Apparently, the sole purpose of capitalism is to make a few people better off while impoverishing everybody else.

  11. weka 11
    7 December 2012 at 9:28 pm

    Ooooh, look, the GP talking about climate change in a press release. What is the world coming to?
     
    http://www.greens.org.nz/press-releases/nz-criticised-international-climate-change-talks

    • Jenny 11.1
      8 December 2012 at 12:33 am

      Wonders never cease

      • Jenny 11.1.1
        8 December 2012 at 12:34 am

        Weka previously when I asked you if the Greens would continue to ignore Climate Change during the next election as they had in the previous one. After quoting back to me, my original question, here, after a long winded preamble, you gave your answer stating:

        ……I just don’t think it’s the job or responsibility of the GP to do this at this point. Time for others to step up.

        weka

        In response to your answer. I asked you another, and even simpler question:

        Who?

        Jenny

        Weka it’s a simple question. Why won’t you answer?

        Weka, if, it is not “the job or responsibility of the Green Party to do this at this point.”

        Whose do you think it is?

  12. karol 12
    7 December 2012 at 10:32 pm

    Whoops.  I think, in the last half hour, I accidentally published a post I am typing up – report on this evening’s demo in Auckland.  Sorry if I caused any confusion. 

  13. Draco T Bastard 13
    8 December 2012 at 12:11 am

    British peer ejected from UN climate talks for denouncing protocol

    The hereditary peer, who is not a member of the House of Lords, took the chair of Myanmar and spoke into the microphone against UN climate change protocols.

    After a short speech, in which he was booed, he was escorted out of the meeting by UN guards.

    He is understood to have claimed there is no global warming in the last sixteen years, and therefore the science needs to be reviewed.

    Guess who.

  15. Viper73 15
    8 December 2012 at 12:27 pm

    This has me worried, Labour must be very confident if it can start removing members willy-nilly…but seriously as much as I enjoy watching the looney left eat itself (and I do) this turn of events is startling.

    One of the things I like about this blog is you can (more or less) say what you think as opposed to redalert which, lets face it, is pretty dull

    I’m just not sure whether its more Stalinist or 1984ish in what this un-named MP wants

    • Neoleftie friend in arms of CV 15.1
      8 December 2012 at 12:36 pm

      Mate whole point I think is NO repeats of 84.
      bang goes the drum.

      • Viper73 15.1.1
        8 December 2012 at 12:45 pm

        Not wanting to go into crystal ball gazing but if this goes ahead when Labour are in opposition (I don’t think it will because of the publicity) what would be the next logical step when Labour gets back into power?

        Targeting all those who support right wing policies?
        Targeting all those who don’t support left wing policies? (but dont support right wing policies)
        Targeting all those who dont support the Leaders policies?

        And once they target those people what will they do then?

  16. Neoleftie friend in arms of CV 16
    8 December 2012 at 1:03 pm

    Whispering in the bright bright sun labour elites want a quiet capture of the centre area but the rebellious ignorant shrill members are perceived to be upsetting the plan by speaking freely putting up remits and questioning the established structure and it’s power cliques.how dear they say the elites…we know best you bleet bleet and are sheep sheep sheep but pay your dues cause we need the cash cash cash to bribe the dog so we can drink from the trough trough trough.

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  • NZ to send political delegation to the Pacific
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  • Defence industry talent, commitment recognised
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  • Streamlining Building Consent Changes
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