Open Mike 18/08/2018

108 comments on “Open Mike 18/08/2018 ”

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1. Pete George 1

   18 August 2018 at 7:03 am

   “Freedom of expression is often one of the first victims of a successful socialist revolution”.

   That’s an interesting comment from @NandorTanczos, which prompted some more comments, from @LewSOS:

   The trouble with revolution, socialist and otherwise, is that it *requires* suppression of free expression to prevent counter-revolution. Such repression is not merely a side-effect of revolution, but is intrinsic, and must be backed by violence if the revolution is to persist.

   Lenin and Mussolini and Castro and Mao and Franco were all perfectly clear on this point. A revolution without repression and violence isn’t a revolution. It’s just an advisory campaign.

   A democratic revolution is no such thing. It’s a nonsense. What the people vote for, the people can vote against, if they are allowed to vote again. So for the new regime to persist, they must not be allowed to do so. This is why I am neither a socialist nor a revolutionary.

   At a basic functional level, it isn’t really. But the specifics matter. Popper was about very specific lined restrictions to safeguard the open society, but the revolutionary praxis in real life has tended to involve a great deal more murdering of dissidents

   If socialist policies are adopted freely and maintained democratically, then at a regime level, for me there’s no very meaningful difference with any other democracy. The socialism bit is incidental and nearly irrelevant as it can be reversed at any time by a change of government.

   (Whether it could be reversed in practice is another matter, because in principle capitalism could be reversed in the same way, and yet it has not been, because norms and institutions have power of a sort)

   So is it possible to have a revolution while retaining democracy?

   Perhaps revolutionary change without having a revolution is possible. Jacinda Ardern’s idea of government is revolutionary perhaps?

   Too revolutionary for some. Not enough of a revolution for others. (Some thing it is little more than a softer same old).

   Viva Jacinda?
   • Andre 1.1

     18 August 2018 at 7:08 am

     The 80s and early 90s saw revolutionary changes without revolutions in a bunch of countries, including ours.

     They just weren’t towards socialism, but away from it.
     • AB 1.1.1

       18 August 2018 at 9:43 am

       Yes – as we have seen over the last 30+ years, the already-powerful can impose revolutionary change quite successfully and the dilemma Tanczos describes doesn’t even arise. Owning large swathes of the private media helps in these situations of course, because it provides a non-violent way of controlling the range of what gets expressed.

       Revolutionary change by the weak against the powerful is inherently more fragile and susceptible to being overturned. But there are no credible voices on the left proposing violent or repressive methods (such as curtailment of freedom of expression) for resolving the problem. Instead we are all about mass movements, evolutionary change and re-imagining the human condition. And with the coming climate crisis it is essential that this alternative vision exists, otherwise we spiral into dystopian hell.
       • Pete George 1.1.1.1

         18 August 2018 at 11:29 am

         “Instead we are all about mass movements”

         Generally promoted and supported by small minorities who lament the ignorance of those who don’t get on board, or lambast the ‘right wing’ media left wing journalists depending on the leaning of forum, for not promoting their cause.
         • Bill 1.1.1.1.1

           18 August 2018 at 11:40 am

           You’re talking about cliques and power struggles between or in support of cliques there Pete. And if there’s a clique (or a committee or a “council of wise elders”), then there is no revolution – just the changes that arrive with a changing of the guard.

           And history shows us that nothing fundamental changes in those situations – thems with the power still does in thems without power.
           • Pete George 1.1.1.1.1.1

             18 August 2018 at 12:00 pm

             That’s pretty much the situation we have in New Zealand – small minorities dreaming of mass movements that support their particular cause.

             I don’t think we;ve had any mass movements since 1981, and even that may have been a (large) minority movement.
   • tc 1.2

     18 August 2018 at 7:53 am

     Such reactionary emotive terminology versus the concept of evolutionary change.

     As the generation coming through looks to evolve not tear down and collaborate rather than dictate. Imagine as John Lennon sang…..I wonder if you can ?
   • Bill 1.3

     18 August 2018 at 10:57 am

     When democracy is the revolution then yes, obviously democracy supplants the faux democracy (or whatever other degree of authoritarian rule is in place) – that has enabled a constant and mere “changing of the guard” to take place off the back of endless streams of bullshit and bullshitters touting themselves as revolutionary…Lenin and Mussolini and Castro and Mao and Franco et al
   • Draco T Bastard 1.4

     18 August 2018 at 11:59 am

     Whether it could be reversed in practice is another matter, because in principle capitalism could be reversed in the same way, and yet it has not been, because norms and institutions have power of a sort

     Capitalism hasn’t been thrown out because the government supports it. Often against the wishes of the populace, i.e, the sale of our power infrastructure and the signing of the TPPA and it’s replacement.

     It’s difficult to say that we have a democracy when the government doesn’t rule as the many want them to but how business wants them to.
2. Jenny 2

   18 August 2018 at 7:59 am

   From the hard to believe files:

   https://www.snopes.com/fact-check/russian-asbestos-trump_face/
3. Andre 3

   18 August 2018 at 8:08 am

   In praise of mixed economies.

   https://www.vox.com/the-big-idea/2018/8/16/17698602/socialism-capitalism-false-dichotomy-kevin-williamson-column-republican-ocasio-cortez

   Seems to me a key aspect of any socio-economic system is how to manage the sociopaths with a lot of drive that are compelled to do what it takes to live in the biggest house, have sex with the most attractive partners, eat the tastiest foods etc.

   A well designed mixed economy allows a freedom for those sociopaths to channel that drive into building things useful to us all. So the likes of Jobs, Musk, Brin & Page can take ideas languishing in obscure research labs (mostly with govt funded) and turn them into stuff that really does improve lives.

   But the problems created by a weak government side that allows allows entities to grow too powerful and act too carelessly are painfully evident throughout history, and not just since the neo-lib craze of the last 30ish years.

   Equally, Animal Farm is a simplistic but accurate picture of how the sociopaths corrupt socialist/communist ideals to their own benefit, backed up by plenty of real world examples.

   So how to synthesise the best aspects of the extremes of ideology and minimise the failings? Looks to me like Scandinavian social democracies come closest. And there is a path there from where we are now via patient incrementalism.
4. Ed 4

   18 August 2018 at 9:02 am

   Over 400 killed by flooding in Kerala.
   Terrible news.

   https://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/asia/kerala-floods-death-toll-latest-india-landslides-bridge-collapse-a8496066.html
   • OnceWasTim 4.1

     18 August 2018 at 3:39 pm

     I’ve noticed a BIT of a change @ Ed.
     Actually it’ll end up being a shitload more than 400 in Kerala, plus a number in UP and even in Uttarakhand not that long ago.
     RNZ was actually leading with this earlier today, so don’t be too dismissive of the Griggs attitude being discussed a couple of days ago (concerning that ‘shithole’ Yemen)
     There’ll be one or two telling her that 30 years experience actually don’t mean shit these days. But no matter, the mortgage must be nearly paid off and Christian and Damien have been doing Oh so Very well at St Marks (going forward)
     There might be an opening for her at the Spinoff before too long.
5. David Mac 5

   18 August 2018 at 9:57 am

   I thought the tree planting thing was an initiative to inject wages and a sense of purpose into the lives of those living in our most impoverished regions.

   Shane Jones just said on Newshub Nation he is bringing in gangs of seedling planters from the Pacific Islands.

   I think this is well wrong, if not planting trees, we need to find what will engage these people. Half of our problems in the Far North is the devil finding tasks for idle hands.
   • Robert Guyton 5.1

     18 August 2018 at 10:55 am

     Tree planting Pinus radiata in the steep hills near Nelson was the most physically difficult, hardest work I’ve ever done. After a few weeks of lugging bags of trees and a mattock up and down those rocky slopes, I was mountain-goat-fit, but not planning to make a career of that form of tree planting.
     • David Mac 5.1.1

       18 August 2018 at 11:22 am

       If getting trees planted was the primary goal, ok. But as I understand the intitiative…Shane said “Get my neffs off the couch.”

       We’ll be using tax payers money to fly in, accommodate and pay unskilled migrants from the Pacific Islands to plant trees that will ultimately benefit the companies that own the forests. The benefits to the current population of the Far North…I can’t see much.
       • millsy 5.1.1.1

         18 August 2018 at 11:42 am

         Seems that this tree planting initiative is turning out to be vaporware.
     • greywarshark 5.1.2

       18 August 2018 at 6:14 pm

       You were younger then Robert. And look how well you turned out. Tree planting like that might be the challenge that these young fellers and gals are looking for. If they could get peer groups where they found friends, get jobs that kept them away from drugs and the gangs that are negative, in ten years there would be a different climate on the ground, and perhaps they could be in training for taking on specialist jobs to do with climate change.
   • greywarshark 5.2

     18 August 2018 at 10:58 am

     David Mac
     All your points are valid. Shane – work with NZs needing jobs and a wage and purpose in life first. Perhaps go to hapus and ask them to get together groups of young men and women who are ready to start learning how to do various jobs and so encourage them to be hopeful of a better future and start with some getting off drugs and moving up.

     The Pacific Islanders look to NZ as a change and way they can improve life for themselves. Maori who are already here and have been faced with barriers to making a change and improving life for themselves will learn to believe in themselves in time when they see others getting a better life from taking up opportunities.

     Considering that climate change is going to make life more and more difficult and we need to raise our resilience and awareness of how to manage to cope, I think it is essential that human-loving politicians right now use all their resources and thought to get projects that enable the rise in self-supporting and strength of mind and belief in one’s own worth to advance themselves.
   • The Chairman 5.3

     18 August 2018 at 11:18 am

     “I thought the tree planting thing was an initiative to inject wages and a sense of purpose into the lives of those living in our most impoverished regions.”

     It has the potential too. Unfortunately, Jones initially wanted it to be a work for the dole scheme. So much for injecting wages and a sense of purpose.

     After some backlash, Labour ensured us employees would be paid the minimum wage. But there was no guarantee employees wouldn’t be employed as independent contractors, thus no minimum wage required.

     And as you highlighted, Jones now plans to bring in offshore workers. He’s also seeking offshore companies to partake.

     Seems employees and local communities will be coming off second best as a lot of this taxpayer spend up heads offshore.
     • Sacha 5.3.1

       18 August 2018 at 12:45 pm

       ‘Seeking overseas companies’ – what, we can’t even organise planting trees locally anymore?
       • The Chairman 5.3.1.1

         18 August 2018 at 12:53 pm

         Apparently, the sector is about 70% foreign owned as it stands.
         • SaveNZ 5.3.1.1.1

           18 August 2018 at 1:34 pm

           The issue is also in the old days, the government pumping money into the economy with projects used to work.

           Under globalism it doesn’t anymore, and actually can be making things worse aka they give the infrastructure contracts to industry who don’t use it to employ or train local people but instead import cheap workers in that don’t pay taxes, drive up prices for housing and rents and require more roads and hospitals and schools to be built. When it all goes wrong with poor construction and remedial work, everyone seems to be gone and up to the taxpayers to fix up the problems it seems. Who would possibly expect industry and those that own the company be responsible for faulty work???

           Meanwhile locals are on the dole still being poisoned smallpox style by P being spread like wildfire, with little to zero intervention of how it’s happened within a decade, and how the raw ingredients are getting in.

           With planting trees, when the forests are owned by offshore individuals and various accounting schemes means it remains to be seen if they will a) employ local people to plant them, and b) will there be any economic benefit for NZ if they harvest or make money from it. At least with the trees, hopefully we get cleaner air although sounds like the ratepayers pay to maintain the roads when they move the logs if they harvest them.
6. greywarshark 6

   18 August 2018 at 10:38 am

   Informative interview for the reasoning democrat. Radionz from Kim Hill. Mr Neiwert has been studying right movements for decades. He has a view on where Jordan Peterson fits in. He explains the mindset of trollers and the alt right.

   10:04 David Neiwert – The Rise of the Radical Right in the Age of Trump
   Neo Nazis, Alt-Right, and White Supremacists march in Charlottesville, Virginia.

   David Neiwert is a journalist, author and expert in American right-wing extremism. He has appeared on Anderson Cooper 360, CNN Newsroom, and The Rachel Maddow Show and is the managing editor of the popular political blog Crooks and Liars. His work has also appeared in the American Prospect, the Washington Post, MSNBC.com, Salon.com, and other publications.

   His previous books include And Hell Followed With Her: Crossing the Dark Side of the American Border, which won the 2014 International Latino Book Award. His latest book is called Alt America: The Rise of the Radical Right in the Age of Trump, and he’ll be speaking to it at the WORD Christchurch festival, details here.

   I’ll try to add audio link when available.
   • greywarshark 6.1

     18 August 2018 at 12:48 pm

     Neiwert says that Trump sees himself as expressing the common man’s and woman’s? opinions. That he has enabled the rise in alt right and other abuse with his lead on this.

     This comment about abuse to those who have been hurt and wish to expose it, especially if it is gender related is an example of the disturbed and negativenature of some people being able to flow without pause.
     https://www.radionz.co.nz/news/on-the-inside/364374/i-am-sorry-you-can-t-freely-express-yourself

     I don’t know whether this will be on audio. You might have to read it.
   • veutoviper 6.2

     18 August 2018 at 2:30 pm

     Here is the link to the audio

     https://www.radionz.co.nz/national/programmes/saturday/audio/2018658681/david-neiwert-the-rise-of-the-radical-right

     In fact here are links to the great selection of interviews on Kim Hill’s show this morning which included Nigel Farage, and Neil and Liam Finn

     https://www.radionz.co.nz/national/programmes/saturday
     • greywarshark 6.2.1

       18 August 2018 at 4:59 pm

       Good to get the links VV. I thought they were good, she and her team, Dita? et al? pick some good riveting or relaxing stuff. to take us down and then up and more informed at the end.

       Reminds me of the film Short Circuit and the runaway robot Johnny 5 I think. It became a rapacious and rapid reader.
       (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Pj-qBUWOYfE
       (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kov5JGeAXvc
       Short Circuit 2
       (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HVtojNukkA0
   • OnceWasTim 6.3

     18 August 2018 at 3:54 pm

     It was bloody good interview @ grey eh?. I listened with all the crackling on the AM band caused by strikes of lightening, as I crossed the Desert Road earlier.
     Just as an aside, I thought to myself as I listened, how all the critics of the Kim Hill Sung that offer their thoughts over 2101 collide with comments from her interviewees such as “good question” and “thanks for asking that”.

     Corrrrrrrrrr eh?
     A Puckish Arse gets off on Jude Collins’ every move .
     Kim Hill Sung gets me just with that sexy voice AND fierce intellect. (pffft)
     A treasure to behold
     • greywarshark 6.3.1

       18 August 2018 at 4:40 pm

       Once was Tim
       You are a lively commenter. I think I agree with you, and the bits I don’t understand probably. As you say – Kim Hill, a fierce intellect. And when she is talking to people who understand and know her well apparently, as with the Finns, that was very enjoyable, lol.

       Glad when you crossed the Desert Road that you stayed in the car. There were about 1,000 strikes or some large number. You could get your brain frizzled and be unable to lighten our frequent gloom on TS. Take care.
   • Morrissey 6.4

     18 August 2018 at 4:46 pm

     Neiwert almost destroyed his credibility at the end when he asserted, like a true on-message Democratic Party stooge: “And I DO believe there was Russian meddling.” He seemed to think that Mrs Clinton would have won if not for that dastardly mastermind in Moscow. In just those few words, he resembled the sad cases of the far right, who he’d scoffed at, memorably, for “inhaling their own exhaust.”
     • greywarshark 6.4.1

       18 August 2018 at 5:05 pm

       But but there probably is something there. Did he say what and how much? It is possible. We can’t know everything – your mind might be devious Morrissey but when there is a phalanx of sycophants (pretty good eh) then they can combine in ways that science has yet to identify.
       • Morrissey 6.4.1.1

         18 August 2018 at 5:16 pm

         I accept that the Russians did indeed try to sow dissension. But their thousands of blog posts—and I have seen many of them—were about the same quality and authority of something on Whaleoil or KiwiBlog. The idea that they somehow were crucial to the victory of Trump is absurd, and Neiwert severely damages his credibility and authority by repeating such nonsense.
         • marty mars 6.4.1.1.1

           18 August 2018 at 5:42 pm

           “And I DO believe there was Russian meddling.” = destroyed cred says morrie

           and

           I accept that the Russians did indeed try to sow dissension. = ???

           You disagree with the extent of the meddling not that there was meddling.
           • Morrissey 6.4.1.1.1.1

             18 August 2018 at 6:51 pm

             Correct Marty. Of course the Russians ineptly tried to upset the warmonger Clinton’s campaign. Foolishly, they backed Trump.

             But the idea that the Russians are some malevolent force manipulating Trump and his cronies and somehow interfering with the ballot itself is simply preposterous. That, however, is what the Clinton wing of the Democratic Party continues to allege, and it’s amplified daily by the likes of Rachel Maddow and, sadly, David Neiwert.
7. Herodotus 7

   18 August 2018 at 11:37 am

   Metro magazine founder Warwick Roger dies
   Sad news
   https://www.stuff.co.nz/national/106376891/metro-magazine-founder-warwick-roger-dies
   • Draco T Bastard 7.1

     18 August 2018 at 12:11 pm

     Why is it sad?
     Why is it even news?
     • Herodotus 7.1.1

       18 August 2018 at 12:30 pm

       Because he tried and achieved something. Without his input nz would be in a poorer position than it is.
       • veutoviper 7.1.1.1

         18 August 2018 at 2:32 pm

         I agree Herodotus, and was sad at the news and his struggle over recent times.
       • Draco T Bastard 7.1.1.2

         18 August 2018 at 2:52 pm

         Death happens to everyone but almost nobody knew who he was and so his death doesn’t actually affect them.

         So, it may be sad to those who knew him. It’s meaningless to everyone else.

         I really don’t get this worship of rich people that many have:
         • David Mac 7.1.1.2.1

           18 August 2018 at 3:01 pm

           Have you considered just passing over the eulogies of people that mean nothing to you?

           For someone that pretends to care about all people you’re making a horrible hash of your charade.
           • greywarshark 7.1.1.2.1.1

             18 August 2018 at 3:56 pm

             Have you considered puitting brief explanation and links to the stories where he did most good for society and NZ in general. Then you would meet DTBs point and illustrate your own.
             That would be wiser than engaging in pointless abuse. Give us the facts man as a comic once said. And feel free to repeat this to me if you see me forget my owm point.
             • David Mac …

               18 August 2018 at 6:01 pm

               Somebody respected Warwick’s work enough to put up a quick post acknowledging his passing.

               I’m suggesting that the person that feels obliged to add ‘Who cares’ is a shallow humanitarian who needs calling out on their form.

               I haven’t split atoms, nobody knows me, but my family would respectfully request that you refrain from spreading the message ‘Who gives a fuck anyway’ upon my death.
               • greywarshark …

                 18 August 2018 at 6:19 pm

                 There are a lot of negative things out there all the time David Mac.
                 Too many shoulds too. Why did you not try what I suggested if you think so highly of him. I remember he was well thought of, prove with what you think are his best pieces. I personally don’t want to live in an authoritarian world where I am told what to think. But if there is good evidence I will look and think about it.
     • McFlock 7.1.2

       18 August 2018 at 2:22 pm

       why would it not be sad?
8. greywarshark 8

   18 August 2018 at 11:48 am

   David Neiwert – The Rise of the Radical Right
   His latest book is called Alt America: The Rise of the Radical Right in the Age of Trump, and he’ll be speaking to it at the –
   WORD Christchurch festival –
   on August 30.

   https://www.radionz.co.nz/national/programmes/saturday/audio/2018658681/david-neiwert-the-rise-of-the-radical-right
9. WILD KATIPO 9

   18 August 2018 at 12:08 pm

   Too many pseudo Irish pubs opening up in Australia apparently…

   The Rumjacks – An Irish Pub Song (Official Music Video) – YouTube
   
10. greywarshark 10

    18 August 2018 at 12:12 pm

    How can NZs get decent treatment for themselves following their own choice about when they want to die when we have the self-centred fears of the disabled, also from the medical profession, the hospice sector, the financial sector etc, the uncaring or conformist, with now Australians stepping in with their guidance in this matter which is our concern?
    https://www.radionz.co.nz/national/programmes/ninetonoon/audio/2018658341/proposed-euthanasia-bill-in-nz-needs-tweaking

    disability law
    Proposed euthanasia bill in NZ ‘needs tweaking’
    From Nine To Noon, 9:32 am on 16 August 2018
    The wording of proposed euthanasia legislation should be tightened to ensure it only applies to the terminally ill, members of an Australian advisory panel say.

    Up you all who don’t care about anybody else’s desperate need or personally strong wish for release because of your own dark imaginings and fears. These come first according to you, with an argument about ethics and so on used as a barrier to belief in the right of a particular human being to have a decent and timely system so they can enable their death according to the fullest choice of best and painless ways with all reasonable legal and moral matters attended to
    beforehand.
    • greywarshark 10.1

      18 August 2018 at 12:37 pm

      I find the reluctance to deal with people’s needs and requirements relating to euthanasia so disgraceful; people are so reluctant to face up to realities of living and dying that they are apparently frozen from doing anything at all. This Australian lawyer might be offering intelligent suggestions like a cup of milk into already weak tea, but that might actually be needed to give some answer to the mass of weak mutterings of the inadequate thinkers who are a majority in NZ.
    • Sacha 10.2

      18 August 2018 at 2:02 pm

      Self-centred fears? Go look up Aktion T4 and see what history has to teach us. Why do you think the Australians carefully narrowed the scope of their law?
      • veutoviper 10.2.1

        18 August 2018 at 2:24 pm

        That was an interesting interview on Thursday but mainly focused on the Australian (Victoria?) legislation rather than the current NZ Bill.

        Paula Tesoriero, the HRC Disabilities Commissioner, was on Nine to Noon the next morning (Friday) and I personally found her analysis and misgivings much more relevant and disturbing vis a vis the NZ Bill.

        https://www.radionz.co.nz/national/programmes/ninetonoon/audio/2018658517/assisted-dying-bill-undermines-disabled-people

        Rosemary McDonald and I have had a few comments on OM yesterday on this subject with Rosemary having done a very detailed comment with her view etc which has been rather lost on there – so here is a link
        https://thestandard.org.nz/open-mike-17-08-2018/#comment-1514940

        As I said in a reply to Rosemary under the above, I have great respect for Paula having worked with her briefly – and for Rosemary’s views but I do not believe that we can just can the euthanasia discussion ( although I definitely believe we need to rethink the Bill) until the never never when all these other problems have been resolved. IMHO these issues need to be addressed concurrently and together. (Bad wording but hope you get my meaning.)
        • Sacha 10.2.1.1

          18 August 2018 at 2:48 pm

          Thank you. The Tesoriero interview was on my to-listen list already. Busy week.
11. The Chairman 11

    18 August 2018 at 12:20 pm

    Will the Green’s environmental wins further the party’s divide?

    The Green’s environmental wins are going to challenge their crusade for the poor.

    The Green’s environmental wins are going to result in a number of new environmental related charges being introduced with the regressive nature of the inflationary impact of these new charges hitting the poor the hardest. Thus, clashing with the cause and as a result, furthering the divide within the party.

    To date, the concern is there has been little to no talk on how the Greens plan to win-over Labour and NZF and help the poor mitigate these additional costs, thus reunite the party.
    • Ed 11.1

      18 August 2018 at 12:31 pm

      Are you stirring?
      • The Chairman 11.1.1

        18 August 2018 at 12:35 pm

        Don’t be silly. This is a serious concern.

        And the fact that some can’t even see it is part of the problem.

        Some seem too blinded by the environmental wins to see it’s going to compound the problem for those in poverty.
        • Muttonbird 11.1.1.1

          18 August 2018 at 1:22 pm

          The Greens consider both the poor and the environment in all their policy work. But your position is that the two concerns are mutually exclusive, going as far in one of your more confused rants to claim the the Greens’ biggest win, healthy homes, had nothing to do with social policy at all!
          • The Chairman 11.1.1.1.1

            18 August 2018 at 1:33 pm

            “The Greens consider both the poor and the environment in all their policy work.”

            They may well do. But considering them doesn’t guarantee they are actually going to do anything for them (the poor).

            For example, can you tell me what they have planned to help the poor offset the regressive inflationary cost of significantly increasing tip fees?
            • SaveNZ 11.1.1.1.1.1

              18 August 2018 at 2:51 pm

              significantly increasing tip fees… make the manufactures/retailers have to take the packaging/clapped out model back themselves for disposal or have more recycling centres. (You used to have community sites for paper, bottles, cans etc around libraries, now that is all gone and you just have your bin/bag each week).
              • The Chairman …

                18 August 2018 at 3:18 pm

                Most businesses generate rubbish and as with any cost incurred, it’s only logical to assume businesses will attempt to pass that cost on. Therefore, not only will people pay more for goods and services, they also pay more for their own rubbish disposal. Thus, this kind of regressive inflationary pressure is felt hardest by the poor.

                Making manufactures/retailers take back packaging for disposal will see them incur further costs, which they will look to pass on.

                Giving community cardholders a discount (like removing GST) on all goods and services may be a more targeted option to consider.
                • SaveNZ …

                  18 August 2018 at 5:16 pm

                  I’m sure retailers will try to pass it on, but then there is so much cheap crap coming into NZ and choice in that area that I doubt it will work. K Mart, Briscos, The warehouse, $1 shops, there are plenty of retailers in a crowded area of plastic goods.

                  Also are beneficiaries and working poor for example the ones out there buying new TV’s, whiteware, over packaged goods, cheese slices in multiple wrappers for lunches or are they at the op shops and trade me and pack and save already using less plastic?
                  • The Chairman …

                    19 August 2018 at 10:33 am

                    With stores and loan-sharks offering easy credit, the poor will be purchasing a variety of things. And with the additional cost of dumping rubbish being felt across the board, competitors will simultaneously all be looking (thus giving them more scope) to pass the cost on.
            • Muttonbird 11.1.1.1.1.2

              18 August 2018 at 3:51 pm

              You might like to reflect on the Greens’ biggest policy achievement to date, healthy homes, and what it means to low income families. Ask yourself if the Greens were “doing anything for them (the poor)” in that instance.
              • The Chairman …

                19 August 2018 at 8:25 am

                Once again, Muttonbird you’ve totally missed the point.

                I wasn’t implying the Greens have never offered the poor anything in the past, I’m questioning what they are going to do for them moving forward? Especially as a number of their new environmental policies are going to place additional costs upon them.

                You do understand we are about to embark on a major transition, which the Greens will be largely leading (Shaw is climate minister)? And as such, are championing new environmental related charges. Such as significantly increasing tip fees and the proposed feebate scheme to incentivise the uptake of low emissions vehicles, which will hit the poor the hardest.

                Theses are merely two of a suite of changes that collectively will be as big as the reforms of the 80’s and 90’s that created a lot of pain and hardship, which we’ve yet to overcome.

                To stay true to their crusade for the poor while dumping additional costs upon them is going to be a challenge that the Greens have yet to tell us how they plan to overcome. And failing to overcome it will further the divide within the party.
      • rod 11.1.2

        18 August 2018 at 5:14 pm

        Dead right Ed, that’s all he ever does.
        • The Chairman 11.1.2.1

          19 August 2018 at 8:46 am

          Oh no, not another moron that can’t see how the Greens dumping additional costs onto the poor is going to clash with their crusade for the poor.
          • solkta 11.1.2.1.1

            19 August 2018 at 9:05 am

            You’re just a really crap troll.
            • The Chairman 11.1.2.1.1.1

              19 August 2018 at 9:09 am

              Are you denying my assertions?

              If so, put forward you reasoning.
              • solkta …

                19 August 2018 at 9:12 am

                You can’t help but reply, you really are a crap troll.
                • The Chairman …

                  19 August 2018 at 9:15 am

                  That’s simply because I’m not a troll.
                  • solkta …

                    19 August 2018 at 9:22 am

                    Give it up already. About the only person you have convinced is SaveNZ. Congratulations.
                    • The Chairman …

                      19 August 2018 at 9:45 am

                      While problems remain, I won’t be giving up.

                      The Greens are going to have a major falling out if they don’t sort this out.

                      And while I’m only one voice from the left within the Greens, many more share my concerns.
                    • solkta …

                      19 August 2018 at 9:47 am

                      You are not a party member, you are just a really crap troll.
                    • The Chairman …

                      19 August 2018 at 9:57 am

                      Whether people believe I’m a troll or not, the problem for the Greens (which evidently you haven’t refuted) remains.
                    • solkta …

                      19 August 2018 at 10:04 am

                      Fuck, you’ve been trolling that same line all year. It is tired. Get some new material.
                    • mauī …

                      19 August 2018 at 10:05 am

                      And what sort of Chairman uses the term ‘Egg’ like you did the other day. I mean really…
                    • The Chairman …

                      19 August 2018 at 10:46 am

                      That’s because the Greens have had many problems over the last year and have yet to reunite the party. So it’s them that needs to produce some new material and get on top of this divide before it’s to late.

                      I not only want the Greens to be part of the next Government, I want them to have numbers and they won’t achieve that if the party remains divided.
                    • solkta …

                      19 August 2018 at 10:48 am

                      Your whole purpose here is to divide the Greens, we understand that.
                    • Robert Guyton …

                      19 August 2018 at 10:52 am

                      The Chairman may well be seeking to “divide The Greens”, solkta, but his wan comments here on TS is very unlikely to achieve that aim. His attempts here are useful though, as he reveals the strategy and talking points that could be employed more widely to achieve that aim, so it’s 3 cheers for The Chairman!
                    • The Chairman …

                      19 August 2018 at 11:01 am

                      No.

                      As you and others can see in this thread, I’m highlighting one of the problems (additional charges being dumped on the poor) furthering the divide and what they must do (protect the poor) to help overcome it.

                      But Shaw and his lot are failing to act and thus far have presented no solutions while championing new environmental charges.
                    • The Chairman …

                      19 August 2018 at 11:06 am

                      Here’s an idea.

                      Next time the Greens champion a new environmental charge/cost, it would be good for them to also tell us how they plan to protect the poor from it
    • SaveNZ 11.2

      18 August 2018 at 12:59 pm

      An easy strategy, make the environmental costs and risks all back on the polluter and don’t let the polluters loose in the first place!

      For example instead of power grants, maybe look at installing solar panels that can reduce power and carbon costs long term in state housing. Of course they need to go back and look at how government has allowed power companies to overtax poor people in the first place and forcing people to pay higher prices if they have solar panels.

      With plastic bags, make the manufacturer be responsible for recycling their plastic, you will be amazed how soon the manufacturers stop over packaging if they have to deal with the problem themselves! Then if they do use packaging they will turn to biodegradable packaging instead!

      At present the government needs to change it’s mindset to thinking taxing people will somehow create a better society aka petrol taxes which is just leading to inequality.

      Instead the answer is to solve the problem by understanding polluters in in the first place aka every man and his dog is on individual truck and courier contracts delivering crap about Auckland in clapped out vehicles or parents, people working 3 jobs because nobody has a full time job anymore.

      Parents driving kids around because the lack of afterschool activities or in school activities is lacking like swimming/swimming pools, sports (now it is all about driving around to competitions rather than in school netball or what have you).

      The entire government mindset needs changing to why people are needing to pollute more and what can the government do, that is fast, cheap and simple to reduce it.

      And rather than the Greens picking on the little guy, they need to look at the worst offenders which are often businesses who for example are creating the packaging or businesses who make employees part time and casual and school/hospital systems that are no longer catering to the needs of the local community and then wonder why people are needing to commute to do things that used to be available locally.
      • SaveNZ 11.2.1

        18 August 2018 at 1:12 pm

        Not to mention Auckland council seems to rubber-stamp as many polluting consents as possible such as truck and trailers or fill going across Auckland for Decades and the Tegal consent relies on millions of chickens being bought into Auckland from Dargaville to be processed. That is what happens when there is pretence between planning and Auckland transport. They effectively rubber stamp each others consents or too lazy to even work out some of the issues (like congestion) going forward.

        What’s next, a freezing works on the water front? I mean we already have the clapped out cars and bananas coming in. Why not put industry first as they already seem to be the priority in NZ while the rest of NZ supports them with free roads, free natural resources and tax top ups for their employee’s because they can’t be expected to pay people enough to live on. Nowadays working for 50% of Kiwis seems to be more survival than living, and having to rely on other people’s decisions, like do they have a job next week, because at any time that might change.
      • The Chairman 11.2.2

        18 August 2018 at 1:24 pm

        ‘For example instead of power grants, maybe look at installing solar panels…”

        Like it, SaveNZ.

        Interestingly, I was following up on a case I highlighted early this year. A state housing tenant was offered a free solar set up and insulation, but HNZ prevented her from having it installed. The Greens spoke out strongly on this, but I’m yet to find out what the final outcome was.

        Nevertheless, once again you raise some valid points, therefore this is the kind of approach the Greens should be considering and what we need to hear more from them.
        • SaveNZ 11.2.2.1

          18 August 2018 at 1:39 pm

          At least the Greens seem to be promoting banning the plastic bag!

          Now hopefully the government will expect those that manufacture with plastic or where it is sold from (aka supermarkets and retailers) be responsible for it’s disposal.

          As soon as consumers are legally able to return packaging to the point you bought it from, it will drive change faster and with more equality than say charging the consumer 10 cents for a plastic bag, while the manufacturers and retailers get a free pass while being the ones who are creating or enabling the issue in the first place.
      • greywarshark 11.2.3

        18 August 2018 at 4:20 pm

        It is all punish, or make life harder, for the ordinary poor person.

        Say that poor person has to shift but has no car, and is on their own. They may have to ask for help from another poor person who has a ute or car and trailer. They probably can’t ask someone comfortably off because they haven’t got enough time or goodwill to help someone who isn’t comfortable.

        Their help-person can’t get to the tip during opening hours, and nobody has any spare money to pay tip fees. They look at one another and wonder what happens if they just leave it at the tip gates. They think ‘Oh no, I’ll bet they will not like that, and we will be on CCTV, and get fined and we can’t afford that’. So the helper says I know somewhere I can take it and leave it and they agree that is the only answer that meets the situation. They load up and take it to an unlicensed tip place out of town.

        This happens. To avoid it, the person might phone and ask Council for help, and they might say well we usually charge at least $20 if we come and pick it up. If you are a ratepayer we will put it on your rates bill. Can you get it to the tip somehow and we will allow you to tip it free of cost but it must meet our requirements and you should have someone capable to help you move it.

        And something gets worked out that means they pay something and do what they can, and Council helps someone who wants to be a tidy kiwi.
12. greywarshark 12

    18 August 2018 at 1:10 pm

    Space force. Is this part of the recipe for building up support for one?
    https://www.radionz.co.nz/news/world/364257/mystery-russian-satellite-s-behaviour-raises-alarm-in-us
    16/8/2018
    • Graeme 12.1

      18 August 2018 at 5:26 pm

      I think the US is already there. WTF does this thing do then?

      https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Boeing_X-37
      • greywarshark 12.1.1

        18 August 2018 at 6:36 pm

        Hmmm Where is the ‘Royal United Services Institute.’? Stirring the pot. With that Boeing X37 going up and down to show it can, unmanned, no wonder the deficit for the USA defence is large.

        Who spends the most –
        The Stockholm International Peace Research Institute (SIPRI) measures annual military spending for most of the world’s armed countries. According to SIPRI, the U.S. spent $618 billion on its military last year, more than three times the $171 billion budget of second place China.Jul 12, 2014

        The Stockholm International Peace Research Institute (SIPRI) 2017 Military Expenditure Database estimated Russia’s military expenditure in 2016 at US$69.2 billion. This estimate is roughly twice that of SIPRI’s estimate of the Russian military budget for 2006 (US$34.5 billion).

        US Military Budget: Components, Challenges, Growth – The Balance
        https://www.thebalance.com › Investing › US Economy › Fiscal Policy
        4 days ago – The US military spending is $892 billion once you add components hidden in other budgets. Here’s the breakout since 2006.

        U.S. military budget inches closer to $1 trillion mark, as concerns over …
        https://www.washingtonpost.com/…/u-s-military-budget-inches-closer-to-1-trillion-mark…
        Jun 19, 2018 – The Senate approved the $716 billion military budget by an … Congress’s official budget scorekeeper recently projected the federal deficit will …
13. greywarshark 13

    18 August 2018 at 1:15 pm

    Denying Palestinians respect and support and communication with the world.
    Is this how Israelis want to behave towards other humans? Is this their dream of how life would be in their own country?
    16/8/2018
    https://www.radionz.co.nz/news/world/364202/palestinian-mail-blocked-by-israel-arrives-eight-years-late
14. veutoviper 14

    18 August 2018 at 1:51 pm

    I found that I had to back away from taking a high interest in the Trump presidency debacle months ago as it was doing my head in. So many questions, so few answers – and so many people in positions of power with backgrounds and personalities that seem to me anyway incongruous to their positions.

    One such is Stephen Miller, who despite his background, beliefs etc seems to be secure in his White House position and also despite the departure of Steve Bannon and others who he was originally aligned with in the White House corridors of power.

    Last week, an article written by one of his uncles was posted on politico.com which I found quite interesting and poignant – and at the same time so very difficult to understand how far from the tree Miller has fallen.

    A well worthwhile read IMHO – I highly recommend taking a few minutes to read it.

    https://www.politico.com/magazine/story/2018/08/13/stephen-miller-is-an-immigration-hypocrite-i-know-because-im-his-uncle-219351
15. greywarshark 15

    18 August 2018 at 2:18 pm

    This proud Australian stands head up, jaw jutting, and having achieved an elevated position on a soapbox says this:
    Wednesday 15/8/2018 4.55pm
    Mr [Fraser] Anning used his maiden speech last night to call for a complete overhaul of the immigration system, insisting most migrants should be from a European Christian background and all Muslims should be banned.
    In that speech he used the phrase “final solution”, which was the phrase used by the Nazis under Adolf Hitler which meant annihilating Jewish people from Europe….

    It has been strongly criticised by politicians from across the divide in both chambers, with Prime Minister Malcolm Turnbull describing the “final solution” comment as a “shocking insult” to those who died in the Holocaust.

    But Mr Anning was unmoved and his party leader Bob Katter called the speech “magnificent” and “solid gold”.
    Mr Katter said he discussed the speech with Mr Anning before he delivered it.
    Mr Anning joined Parliament last year as a One Nation senator but has since defected to Katter’s Australian Party….

    (Note me: This is what the waka jumping bill here is going to prevent, and which Nick Smith is making a ‘noble principled’ stand against and attacking Winston Peters at the same time. Here in this Oz case it can be seen how waka-jumping from your avowed party at election leads to bad not good politics.)

    “That has nothing to do with ‘the final solution’, the thought police got onto that.
    “Good men died for our right to say whatever we wanted to say and use whatever words we want to use. If people want to take it of context that is entirely up to them…

    (Note from me: This is an example of where unrestrained ‘free’ speech leads.)

    Parliament stops short of censuring Mr Anning’s comments
    The Greens moved a motion in the Upper House to censure Mr Anning over his comments, but it did not get enough support to pass.

    (Me: Instead wishy-washy pretence of integrity -)

    The Senate did, however, pass a motion recognising the merits of immigration and multiculturalism, and a similar motion was moved in the House of Representatives.
    https://www.radionz.co.nz/news/world/364171/australian-mps-condemn-fraser-anning-for-final-solution-muslim-ban-speech

    (I heard some comment on this speech and the ability of rabble rousers like this to get into Australian Parliament. The commenter said something about the voting system enabling it. Single Transferable Vote?
    the use of the single transferable vote proportional representation system to elect the upper house, the Senate.[1]https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Electoral_system_of_Australia

    Some google headings on Australia and its version of politics:
    Fraser Anning: One Nation Senator elected with just 19 votes
    https://www.theaustralian.com.au › national-affairs
    Nov 10, 2017 – Fraser Anning is Pauline Hanson’s new low-vote senator … I will do the job for the people of Queensland and Australia.” … With the declaration, senator-elect Anning said he realised he was in parliament because of the …
    ***
    Josh Frydenberg under pressure over $444m reef foundation grant …
    https://www.theguardian.com/australia…/fraser-anning-refuses-to-apologise-for-final-sol…
    3 days ago – The annual ABC Parliament House Showcase is on tonight, where the ABC brings … David Leyonhjelm said Turnbull had promised him a free vote in the House. … issues, less sensible people jump in” – @TonyAbbottMHR on Fraser Anning #auspol … At what point are we going to say you are Australian?
    ***
    Fraser Anning: How only 19 people voting for him secured Senate gig
    https://www.news.com.au/national/…/19…/f8d8aaa83f0c2bcab53626455a3698d6
    3 days ago – A BLOKE who got just 19 votes in a Federal election still managed to get his bum on a Senate seat. … the boot from Parliament in the citizenship saga, paving the way for Fraser Anning who … took a pit-stop as an independent, and then joined Katter’s Australian Party. … News Pty Limited Copyright © 2018.
16. The Chairman 16

    18 August 2018 at 2:25 pm

    Jacinda asked teachers to be patient, yet didn’t even bother to layout a time-line.

    Should the Government meet teachers demands now or are they right in making them and students wait?

    As I’ve highlighted with the nurses dispute, the Government isn’t spending up to its own spending cap, moreover, debt repayment is better than expected, thus the fiscal scope is there for the Government to act now.

    How do you feel on this one?
17. joe90 17

    18 August 2018 at 4:05 pm

    Prince’s mercenaries committed multiple war crimes in Iraq and were convicted for their involvement in the Nissour Square massacre.

    This story has all of the markings of something leaked to the press by Trump advisers precisely because it is such a colossally bad idea.

    President Donald Trump is increasingly venting frustration to his national security team about the U.S. strategy in Afghanistan and showing renewed interest in a proposal by Blackwater founder Erik Prince to privatize the war, current and former senior administration officials said.

    Prince’s idea, which first surfaced last year during the president’s Afghanistan strategy review, envisions replacing troops with private military contractors who would work for a special U.S. envoy for the war who would report directly to the president.

    Beyond the lunacy of privatizing wars to mercenaries—especially those who were charged with crimes while deployed in Iraq—Dan Pfeiffer suggests that this could be yet another example of how deeply corrupt this White House has become.

    https://washingtonmonthly.com/2018/08/17/will-mattis-allow-trump-to-start-privatizing-the-military/
    • One Two 17.1

      18 August 2018 at 10:37 pm

      The questions you might consider, Joe…

      How is the ‘military’ not already a private force ?

      When did the privitization occur ?

      How is privitization enabled ?
18. Ed 18

    18 August 2018 at 4:44 pm

    Jimmy Dore on Syria.
    Some background for folk here.
19. joe90 19

    18 August 2018 at 10:02 pm

    Kofi Annan has died.
20. Patricia Bremner 20

    18 August 2018 at 10:43 pm

    So very pleased to read that the Greens are seeking agreement against water rights sold with land that end up being bottling plants with huge take up. Case Whakatane. I hope Labour and NZ First agree.

    It is a real problem in California. We need to learn from their orchards being bought, trees knocked down for piping or bottling the water away. Water rights should be for a designated use only, and tied to the industry IMO.

    California once believed they had endless supplies.
    • corodale 20.1

      18 August 2018 at 11:43 pm

      Agreed, these are the basics the Greens ahve to get right, and
      Also here, I wander if the result of no-damn plan from Waimea Greens is more maize. But the gnats could have started alt plans years ago.
      “There were alternatives to dams including on-farm water storage, urban rainwater collection systems, grey water recycling systems and growing different crops.” from Waimea Green.
21. Jilly Bee 21

    19 August 2018 at 12:08 am

    Why was he so quiet over the past 9 years? https://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/news/article.cfm?c_id=1&objectid=12108722
22. Eco Maori 22

    19 August 2018 at 10:43 am

    Great Britain still has a major influence on Aotearoa and Papatuanukue so I say it’s ECO MAORI right to give my opinion on the British exit of the European Union.
    The European Union is making a lot of good call for the future of the Mokopunas and Papatuanukue so I Back a new vote on Britexit views of the people
    If one looks across the Atlantic sea they will fill the void if Britain leaves the European Union I say that a wrong move for all people on Papatuanukue Ka kite ano link below
    https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2018/aug/18/founder-superdry-donates-1-million-pounds-peoples-vote-brexit-deal
23. Eco Maori 23

    19 August 2018 at 11:06 am

    Here you go police tasering a 87 years old lady I told you they are on a different Papatuanukue probley influence buy trump vile views on other culture one can say one thing but it is his actions that speak loud and clear to ECO MAORI he’s a racist Ana to kai Ka kite ano link below
    http://www.stuff.co.nz/world/americas/106386070/us-police-use-taser-on-87yearold-woman-carrying-a-knife-to-cut-dandelions
24. Eco Maori 24

    19 August 2018 at 11:42 am

    You see the sandflys have only contacted lies against my good name so they are playing the intimidation game on ECO MAORI with there hands clasped together praying that I make a dumb move YEA RIGHT muppets I see everything the juveniles are doing Ana to kai Ka kite ano
25. Eco Maori 25

    19 August 2018 at 11:57 am

    Good logical policy like waste minamization looking at ways to improve te Mokopunas future and keep our environment clean is why I Back the Green 100% link below Ka kite ano

    https://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/news/article.cfm?c_id=1&objectid=12109641 P.S it’s logical to create less waste and save money and the environment
26. Eco Maori 26

    19 August 2018 at 5:28 pm

    Well I’m at the hospital with my Mokopuna she is OK we still not sure what’s, wrong but my Mokopunas has the Wensday Adams personality she does not show or cry when she is in pain and she only talks when she’s is asked questions and the answer are quite blunt that’s OUR Wensday so I can see that people that don’t know her could jump to conclusions we had a child next door moaning and cry about pain I told her that’s how she should be behaving but I did inform the hospital staff that’s how her personality is doesn’t cry when in pain. Some will know that others have affecting the views that staff have on my whano Ka kite ano
27. Eco Maori 27

    19 August 2018 at 5:56 pm

    The way eco Maori see this move against Turkey its not about Turkey its about the country’s that have invested in Turkey who have give trump the bird flip eco is so famous for giving. trumps adviceser have told him hit Turkey with Tariffs the US have little financial exposure to TURKEY that will bring pain to those good countries stock market he doesn’t care that the move will place people in hardship just so he can get back at the bird flippers. Ka kite ano
28. Eco Maori 28

    19 August 2018 at 6:03 pm

    Link for post above here.

    https://www.bbc.com/news/world-us-canada-45237372
29. Eco Maori 29

    19 August 2018 at 6:40 pm

    Good evening Newshub I have all ready posted about The great Kofi Annan he was a intelligent humane man its awesome that the Papatuanukue media are houners this great humanitarian Kofi Annan we cannot let great tangata like him go with out celebrating and hounering there lifes work
    Ka pai.
    The Greens Party is taking a spotlight to our waste problems and is going to come up with logical solutions to this issue Ka kite ano
30. eco maori 30

    19 August 2018 at 10:10 pm

    Good evening Q&A Corin There is a major tangata whenua oppression in the government systems the justice system is the main offender . The national party has used the last nine years to champion this suppression of Maori .How else do you exsplane the fast rise of bad stat’s of tangata whenua.
    There you go asking a Indain shop owner who only see thing’s throught his shop eye’s he has all ready locked maori up I can see it in his eye’s Corin he is a national puppet.
    That’s the way Marmara you tell them how acutely is locking more people up like the Indain want’s this will flush people’s live’s and billion’s down the toilet.
    seenothing is drowning Corin and he is pouring money into your pocket and other’s to try and keep his toilet a float See you around Corin Ka kite ano P.S I looked back in time and seen most new goverment’s get at least 2 terms in Parliament all the political scientist know this fact but the new government don’t let your guard down Corin look at all the new Green policys coming into law a big win for the Greens Corin using the divide an concur trick lol
31. eco maori 31

    19 August 2018 at 10:22 pm

    Yes some in the media will plant questions and get one or 2 words and spin them into a hurricane of bullshit Go Jamie and Marama P.S Eco is quite committed his my mahi Corin

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